Welcome to Episode 61 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts.
My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcast guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans and their families. Find the show on all the podcast players by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.
Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors, who also believe that education changes lives. This episode is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military cultural content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. You can find more PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org.
On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Steve Dilley, Founder and Director of the Veterans Art Project. VetArt is a community-based arts organization, serving Veterans, active duty service members, spouses, dependents, their caregivers and the community to process driven, deep arts engagement and art therapy.
After 9/11, Steve was inspired to help service members, Veterans, and their families through art-making. In addition to managing the VetArt Program, Steve is an Associate Professor of Art and Sculpture at Grossmont College in El Cajon, California. You can find out more about Steve by checking out his bio in our show notes. Let's get into my conversation with him and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points.
DUANE: Steve, great to be able to have you on the show. I'd love to hear the story behind the mission of the Veterans Art Project, how it came about and what drove you to help Veterans express themselves through art.
STEVE: Duane, I appreciate you communicating and letting me come on to talk and share my story and my passion. You know, I was fortunate that I was the youngest of five and my mom works. She was an RN and my dad worked for the city. And I mentioned that because my parents met each other and married in Navy medicine and this is the Korean War Era. As a kid growing up, I think I went to every Lions club, rotary meeting, hot dog sale, whatever it was, fish fry this for the fire department and that for the hospital auxiliary.
And so I think, my parents really exemplified this idea of service but also that there was a community that happened there and that's something I always loved to be involved with because they're all older than me. They're all adults, but I could carry stuff and be involved.
I have to say that I wasn't in the service. And I went to art school and I'm an artist. I think I'm doing my own sense of artistic responsibility and that I had some times when I was growing up that I had art to rely on when I didn't necessarily feel, it felt like I had anyone else in my life. That community offered me an opportunity to pursue something on my own, and that's, we're talking about process.
Also, because I was going to school, I was doing research papers and we're talking about Glen Lukens in the early fifties who was getting Veterans from the LA VA and bringing them to UFC. He was reporting that these people were catatonic. No one could reach. And I found it interesting that he was bringing them into the ceramics lab and by bringing them into the ceramics lab, six months or a year later, they would spin off and go and get degrees and become doctors and lawyers and engineers and all these things.
DUANE: And these were World War II Veterans in the fifties.
STEVE: Yes, these were World War II Veterans now. So, I'm thinking that it was just that little thing that I really tuned into and I found it to be interesting.
I always say that 9/11 affected me too. Living here in San Diego, if you were paying attention and you're reading a paper and we're talking 2003, 2004, we were hearing the story and it was repeating itself.
A Marine long deployment creates a stack of money, comes back, buys a motorcycle and mixes it with a 30 pack of beer. Now we know that the military, they're working through wounded warrior battalions to offer different opportunities for rehabilitation for these active duty.
Also, my dad was a medic in the Navy. So, in the seventies, hanging around with him and going around LA, everyone that had a case on or something on the back of their jacket, my dad would go up and talk to him and share a smoke and talk with them. And he would give them five bucks on a cigarette or something. And my dad would always say, “You know, he's got some problems.” And I think the cultural shift here is in The Vietnam Era, people were drafted and then they did their year. And then there were the VA's problem. But now we're looking at the BRAF and they're saying, these people signed up for this and they weren't like this before they shipped out. So there are our responsibility. So we are looking at a full cultural shift there of how people are, perceiving PTS and TBI as this isn't necessarily a weakness and realize that this is something else that's going on.
And of course, I wanted to help people. I just took that idea of wanting to help people and just started with one class. And as I said earlier, I'm fortunate that we have a wonderful amount of participants who have shown up to our classes. The program is well-regarded. The participants keep on telling me like art making, it feeds something in our soul in a different way. And if we do it in community, we can really do some damage against isolation and those types of things.
DUANE: I think that story is a great example of not having served yourself, but being in a family of service, but you don't need to have served in the military to serve service members, Veterans, and their families. Right. That's a lot of times where some people may think that Veterans will say, I don't want your help because you don't know where you're coming from.
In a sense, you very much do know where they're coming from, because being raised in a military family. But also, your skills didn't keep you from helping out in your own way. They didn't need you to fix cars or take them fishing because that's not what you do. And you didn't have to go into the military to do what you do to support them.
STEVE: I really feel I'm unfortunate and I had my own ideas of what I thought the military was. And then I started doing these classes and to really get in and understand and listen to the people. It's changed my perspective of what the military does, but also what the military stands for, what it has stood for, in the last a hundred years. It's a big thing and it's been a big, positive influence on this world we live in here. Not just here in the United States, but also worldwide. And that's not to be overlooked in any way. I feel, in any discussion about what we're talking about, what people give up, what they struggle with, how they serve.
We were working with, Intrepid Spirit Center over here on Penelton. We're doing a foundry class with these active duty personnel. A lot of them were about 16 years in. They were at the bottom of their well, and they had this really innovative program there. And, we were just one small part of that, but we saw time and again how people just were, saying things like, “Thanks, you gave me my life back” or “Thanks, you gave me my wife back.” I got my family back. These artistic interventions, acknowledgments, process; I think these all go a long way to helping people process information. Not all information is you listen to and you see, it's kind of fetick and what does that mean for us?
DUANE: I've always been fascinated as I mentioned before we started, my grandmother was an artist. My uncle is an amazing artist who's a Vietnam Veteran. We have some of, both of their pieces hanging up, in our house. I’ve always thought, both as a Veteran and as a clinician, that it's important for Veterans to get involved in some creative endeavor.
That's what drove me into podcasting. This is a method of creative expression, right? This is my way, as well as writing. I can't draw, I've tried to paint. I've tried to sculpt and they weren't my thing. But why do you think it's important for Veterans to engage in creative expression after the military?
STEVE: A very deep idea that was shared to me by one of our participants and she called it a service after service. And so one of the things that we do and that is, “Hey, I come and I practice some art. And then I get a chance to go work with some other Veterans and share that with them.”
So that's like one learning mode that happens there. I do think that having access to nonverbal means of communication allows people to express thoughts and ideas and feelings that may not be readily available and that you can express it through a color or a lime or anything creative. And then you don't necessarily have to talk about it.
You can let the objects show how I feel, and that's a really important component. So if we're practicing some kind of process now, ceramics, glass casting. It happens in the community many times because people are like, “Oh, hey, you try this or you try that.” And then it might be, and then if you do this, so there's some tribal knowledge that happens.
But all of that community means that you're interacting with other people and you're not isolating yourself. And we have heard many times that with these interventions, the people get a chance to practice. And then at first they're a little hesitant, but then they come back and, and I've heard the story as, the guy that comes in like I ain't never going do this, and they're really shut down to it. And then a week or a month later, and they come up to me and really on like in my ear, literally, they're like, “Can you show me how to do that?”
And then of course, you know, I'm there. I'd like to think that what VetArt does best is that we meet the participant at the door and when they're ready, we're ready to get them started. And we start with the process, right? How to make a cup. And then it's okay, I've done a cup. And then it's like they come back and they do a couple more and then they're starting to see other people.
So it's really an opportunity to share and connect with people. I think art making is by itself, very therapeutic. It gets you out of your head. I like to think that when people come in here, they get to leave their other lives, shoes out the door and put in their artistic shoes. And everybody, and I hear it a hundred times, “I'm not artistic.” And it's no, but you can understand process.
And then they kind of look at me and it's like, you ever make cookies? And I'm like, sure. There's a process when you make a cup of noodles. We have a little bit more of an in-depth opportunity to share because ceramics is, as I like to say, people can, they can study form, they can study utilitarian or abstract. They can look at it from a social, economic, the chemistry. So there's many different avenues to look at how does something happens and what do you do to do that?
DUANE: I think that's something that may be particularly appealing to someone who spent any significant time in the military. There's a process in the military. There's steps to do everything. In the Army, we call it a task conditions and standards in all conditions. As long as you went by the book, by the numbers all the way from marching to firing your weapon, to, like you said, cooking eggs in the dining facility, right. There is a process and that process can be very familiar, but then you can move beyond that process and you can build in art. Just like in the military, you can build processes on top of processes and that's got to give a level of comfort to Veterans. Especially when they think art maybe is just like throwing paint on a page or, Picasso choosing to put an eye over here and an ear over there. But there is a process that's more comforting once they learn that.
STEVE: And, and for some people there's comfort in the process, because it offers a certain idea of comfort through control. I'm a process-based person. So I'm always coming back to the idea that you learn how to do this process. You might learn how to control it a little bit, and it may allow you to give up a little bit of control.
And then that's another opportunity to be present and be free in what you're thinking and doing. So there's an opportunity for that too. So it's, there's all these different layers. But I'd like to think the best thing we do is here in the studio.
My first ceramics teacher, Chris Gonzalez, he is a Marine, came out in 72, went to state college and he crashed a course. And of course he's in there talking to him and the guys said, “Okay, I got no room for you guys, but you stay over there until the end of the class.”
And so there's three guys and he comes out. I only got two slots. What's it going to be? First guy goes, what's your story? And the guy goes, “Well, I needed it to get my graduation.” “Nope. Get out of here.” And the next guy, he goes, “I need it for my major.” He goes, “Nope. Get out of here.” And he goes to Chris Gonzales and he goes, “What are you doing here for?” I don't know. This looked like fun. Let me see your paper. I'll sign you in. But that started him down the path to get an MFA and then made his career in.
And, in 74, he had a lot of Veterans coming through a ceramics class. That's 10 years before I even graduated from high school. So there's something about that process. Something about that clay. Peter Voulkos, who was the nose gunner in World War II. He was a great American ceramicist, something about that clay man. I was a painter till I got my hands in that clay and it got its hookers in me and I couldn’t let go.
DUANE: I think that's the really interesting thing. Again, everybody finds their medium. Like I said. I tried to paint. I tried to sculpt, because that was where my family's art was from, but it didn't get into me. Writing and now audio production, that was my entrance into that creative expression.
And other people are doing creativity through community involvement. Creativity has so many different aspects. But one of the things that you had talked about earlier is that art is providing these Veterans the ability to access thoughts, feelings, and emotions that aren't accessible. And in a lot of time, not even accessible to them personally, like they don't even know about it.
And I like to dive a bit deeper into the intersection between art and mental health. I have always believed that creative expression is a moderating factor to therapy that can help them access things that are difficult to acknowledge. What do you think it is about artistic creativity that opens service members and Veterans up to healing?
If healing is what they're needing or looking at.
STEVE: We'd like to think that we have our outcomes could be anything like financial, therapeutic, social participation, wellness. And I think that there needs to be, I've seen it in my students and I've been teaching 20 years, that art started in 2009 and that is people get a chance to come in and they get a chance to make a bunch of decisions: the color of the glaze or the twist of the handle, or is it thick or the thin, is it sharp? Is it tall, is it spot? All these different decisions and they get a chance to practice decision-making, but also they're going a chance to practice reflective thought.
Because it's okay, maybe this cup today and this cup yesterday. And what do I like about the two and what do I dislike about the two and what am I going to combine from these two to make the cup tomorrow? So there is that component that I think. Paul Soldner, who was a conscious objector, who worked with his army and was a medic in World War II. When they opened up concentration camps in Europe he said that he had found that some people had taken charcoal and had painted or, you know, creative expression is universal to all humans. And if it allows us to have a full human experience and that some people may not have had that, maybe training or upbringing or a combination of both. And here they are, they come in here and they get a chance to experiment, investigate and that leads them to a deeper understanding of themselves. And I think it's important. It's important for people to be whole and in a part of who we are.
DUANE: And also that self-awareness that you just mentioned. Obviously once you start to dig down a little bit, you may get to pieces, that may surprise you, that you might want to know about. And then obviously there are other aspects of getting in touch with the clinician saying, “Hey, as I was working on this, and this made me feel like that.”
So actually doing some therapy with a big T so to speak. But you also mentioned earlier about this idea of letting the art speak to you. And I was talking to a Veteran one time that you could let the speak to different people at different times. Whereas if you're standing in a gallery, for example, displaying your piece and someone who hadn't served in the military comes up, you can have one conversation with them about what this art piece is.
But if a fellow Veteran comes up and I've actually had this experience where,in a mentor of mine, we're meeting somewhere and he was asking me a question, and as I was able to go to a very different place with him explaining what this was, Veteran to Veteran, as opposed to someone who wasn't. So in that way, art is versatile in its ability to help Veterans learn to tell their story.
STEVE: Absolutely. And, and I hear that from other Veterans. Phyllis Miller, she's a painter and she lives in Los Angeles, Vietnam Era. She has this whole painting series about the price of freedom. And some people see it with all these negative aspects and she's looking at it as yes, there's sacrifice here, but look what that's given us.
And so the Veterans see that where maybe the civilians don't see it in the same light. But the fact that it can communicate to both demographics and people is really about what art communicates. We see the world around us through a part of our brain that has grown through our epidermis and we call that the eyeball. And we understand imagery and images and for better or good. We do see the world through light reflecting off of objects. And, art a lot of times is dealing with how light reflects off of objects. And, and I think there's a lot here for people to share in community because Veterans come in, they gain some skill.
We very much believe in this dignified display of artwork. And then they may find themselves having conversations with the community member. And it's really reinforcing to them that they're getting this positive reinforcement for their artwork. And some people sell a piece, and then, that plays into this and, people, you can see them.They stand a little taller all sudden because they're communicating in a different way.
Also, I want to say that, from the spouses, this is what I hear. What'd you do to my husband? I've heard this, I've heard this a few times or my wife and I, of course I've heard it. So I go, what do you mean? I play along. And they said, my husband's been hanging out here for about three months and we've been married for 15 years and at dinner, he hasn't said anything more than pass the salt. My husband last Saturday and we spoke for six hours.
He told me everything about his childhood, about what he did in the service, all these things I didn't really know. But once he shared that with me, I understood better how we could help him and how we could be present there for him. So there's something about non-verbal means of communication that I think obliquely drills in and allows some communication to happen and maybe it opens up verbal, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I see it again and again.
DUANE: Yeah, but you're right. It does have to do with brain and brain chemistry and brain body connection. You're talking about this, as far as the process, having repetitive processes with the hands. That's what I've always said about art is that you can get some mental health through the front door, or you can get it through the back door.
And one of the back doors is through creative expression. Steve, I really do believe in the work that you're doing. We could definitely talk for a very long time. If people wanted to find out more about the work that VetArt is doing, or if they want to contact you to see how they can support you, how could they do that?
STEVE: A couple of ways. we have our website www.vetart.org. You can see our downloadable first year report for the mental health services oversight accountability commission. It's California State Agency Firm, and we are the contract holder for Veterans mental health and wellness through pop-up art cafes. We have other events that are happening across the state. We have a Shasta in April and Riverside in May. They will have a statewide event in October. Come to one of our events. It's a pop-up display. It's really a celebration of Veterans who are doing art.
And we have the whole gamut from people who are just starting all the way through to people that are displayed internationally. We are also looking at how that is creating that kind of core group of people, Veterans, so that they stay connected with each other at the county level.
DUANE: That's great. And we'll make sure that all of those from the show notes. Steve, thanks for coming on the show.
STEVE:Thanks, Duane. It has been enjoyable.
Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory. That's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. And you can find more about PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org.
It often amazes me to hear about current initiatives that support service members, Veterans, and their families that are remarkably similar to things that have been done in the past but aren't widely known. There's nothing new under the sun so they say, but like they also say about reruns on TV. As Steve mentioned in our conversation, processing and engagement through art and creative expression was something that was found to be helpful for World War II Veterans in the fifties and Vietnam Veterans in the seventies.
If a Veteran goes into a creative expression program, thinking this ain't for me, how many thousands of other Veterans in the past hundred years have thought the same thing? As I mentioned in my conversation with Steve, I truly believe that creative arts can be therapeutic in and of itself. And it can also be a way to approach the concept of clinical mental health counseling, and therapy. That is much easier for Veterans to deal with.
Similar to peer support programs, which the Veterans Art Project has components of as well, a creative arts program may not be the solution on its own. But it can be a critical part of the combination that does lead to the solution. Whether it's sculpture and ceramics, songwriting, poetry, painting, stand-up comedy, writing, or digital media production. There's a lot of value in engaging in creative expression for those who served. If you're a Veteran and you're not doing something creative in your post-military life, you might want to check it out. And if you're managing a program that supports service members, Veterans, and their families, take a look around for programs like Vet Art to see if you can partner with them to bring more value and healing to those who serve.
The second point that I'd like to make is a little bit more of a serious one. It goes to Steve's story about how he got involved in supporting Veterans through art. He felt a sense of responsibility as a citizen of a nation that has an all volunteer military. To me, that begs the question. What do we collectively as a nation owe to those who served in the military? What responsibility does any one person have to someone who served. This can be a complicated question.
Many Veterans might reject the idea of someone owing them something. Military service means to serve, not to be served. And to think that military service creates some sort of unwanted obligation and those who haven't served may not be in line with what Veterans feel comfortable with. And if the responsibility can be summed up as you break it, you buy it.
In that the nation has an obligation to someone who is negatively impacted by their volunteer military service. Many Veterans may reject that as well. We don't like to be seen as broken that conjures up thoughts of being damaged, useless, worthless. We throw broken things away. The truth is however that military service members have engaged in and endured some of the most mind and soul altering experiences. And repeated exposure to those experiences has an impact on mind, body, and soul. Those outstanding athletes at the Warrior Games in spite of physical and psychological injuries, they thrive and persevere while they would also reject the concept of being broken, they have sustained damage to their mind and body.
Outside of Veterans, some of those who haven't served may reject the concept of responsibility for those who have. They may argue well, they volunteered, they knew what they were getting into, or they've got doctors and stuff to take care of that. right. Why is it my responsibility? It may be cliche, but those who enjoy the liberty and freedom to express those kinds of thoughts often don't consider the price that was paid by someone else for them to be able to do so. Many Veterans served in the military without any expectations beyond what they were told that would result from their military service.
But just because the expectation isn't there, however, doesn't mean the obligation doesn't exist. In many ways, serving in the military as a social contract entered into by two parties, neither of whom really understand the obligations that are being agreed to. And that social contract is not always fulfilled by either party, but it's great to hear that folks like Steve assume a certain responsibility and are doing what he can to help the service members, Veterans, and the military family members who use his program in fulfillment of that responsibility.
For this week's PsychArmor resource of the week, I'd like to share the PsychArmor course on trauma informed interactions with veterans. If you're going to be involved in a program like VetArt, you're going to experience Veterans who are working with some significant trauma. This course defines trauma, discusses how it presents itself and is specifically designed to help volunteers interact with Veterans dealing with trauma that affects their health and or ability to function. You can check out the article through a link in the show notes.