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This episode includes teaching from Tim Keller that was recorded separately from the conversation between Mark and Bilge. You can watch the full talk from Tim on City Theology here.
To Be Continued… with Tim Keller is a captivating podcast inspired by the wisdom of beloved pastor and theologian, Dr. Tim Keller. The premiere episode features a conversation with Tim Keller. Subsequent episodes seamlessly blend archived Keller teachings with fresh dialogues featuring Christian leaders from across the globe. Through these conversations, "To Be Continued…" paints a hopeful picture of the global church, bridging the gap between timeless truths and contemporary challenges.
In partnership with Redeemer City to City, each episode showcases a dynamic exchange between two global leaders deeply shaped by the gospel-centered approach infused throughout Keller's work, delving into topics central to city ministry, but accessible to all.
Listen and discover that the best conversations don’t end… they continue.
Laura Sauriat :
Let's face it. Cities are complex. In cities, you find more skeptics, more religions, more suffering. You also find more diversity in background, worldview and ideology. Cities are centers of much of the world's wealth, power, art, and innovation, all of which eventually shapes and informs non-urban lifestyles. It could be said that the future of the world is forged in cities. This is To Be Continued with and without Tim Keller. And on this podcast, I'll be joined by dynamic City to City leaders. These city leaders have been shaped by the work of the late Dr. Tim Keller and have much to share about how the gospel can bring shalom and hope to our cities, our work and our relationships. So wherever it is in the world that you find yourself, we invite you to listen in on our conversation, one that we hope will spark new ideas, curiosities, and questions. Because the best conversations don't end... they continue.
Tim Keller:
The idea of a city as an accumulator. It's another way of saying the cities are like a magnifying glass. What a magnifying glass does is it can concentrate the beams of the sun you know onto a piece of paper and it goes into flame. In the same way, cities are not actually good or evil. Cities are magnifications of human nature, which means cities are, in the cities, you see humanity at its best, and you also see humanity at its very worst because cities are the accumulator of human nature. They're the magnifiers of human nature, and therefore cities are incredibly good. You can see the best almost of everything that human beings can produce in cities. And they're also the very worst. There can be tremendous poverty, tremendous corruption, tremendous racism, tremendous crime. And so instead of blaming cities for the bad. Or romanticizing cities for the good, we need to see what we actually have in cities and cities bringing out what's in the human heart.
Laura:
That clip from Tim Keller gives us a brief introduction to today's conversation on city theology. Today I'm thrilled to speak with Bilge from Istanbul who is joining us remotely, and I'm lucky enough to be in the studio here in New York with Mark Reynolds, two insightful leaders from two beautiful cities, a fitting context for today's theme. Well Mark in New York and Bilge in Istanbul, welcome to this conversation on the theology of the city.
Bilge:
Thank you so much. It's great to be here, Laura.
Mark Reynolds:
Yeah, thank you, Laura. It's great to be here. Enjoy this topic and good to be here with my friend Bilge.
Laura:
I've been really looking forward to this. So, I wanted to get onto the biblical point of view on cities.
Mark:
One of the fascinating things about cities and looking at it from kind of a biblical point of view is you can't isolate one part of it. I think you have to look at it through all of scripture to see how the meaning of cities, it's God's intention for them is unfolding some things about cities that are places where we can see some positive things, but also can create conditions that can be corrupt and evil. But I think God's intention for cities has always been that they are to be one of the places that culture is impacted and formed and shows the diversity and beauty of the body of Christ.
Bilge:
Yeah, I think it's one of the topics when you read scripture, it really much depends on the lens that you have. When you read scripture, often we just come with our own filters, so to speak, and it's difficult to be aware of those filters. And Mark rightly said, you really have to look at it diachronically. You have to look at it from Genesis to Revelation because you can theorize what it would've looked like if the whole store of humanity wouldn't have derailed in Genesis three with the fall, then probably our outlook on cities would be much different because then you could see human flourishing and population increase and a world without sin, and probably the garden of Eden would then become the city of Eden, but we never got to see that. So I think you always had the mixed, the sinfulness and the blessedness together.
Laura:
Would either of you say that scripture casts a negative view of cities?
Bilge:
I think it's first introduced with tool building and industrialization, if you want to use those modern terms. And Cain the first person, I think that is introducing us to these themes. And yeah, so then you hit the next Sodom and Gomorrah. You could add Babylon, the Tower Babel, where you kind of want to live independent of God and just unite the whole humanity in their strive to achieve perfection apart from God. So there's a lot of places where you can look.
Mark:
Yeah, I would agree with that. Even in the midst of those negative, perhaps, attributes about the city, you can still see windows of positive things about them. But you're right, it go to Genesis four with Cain being tasked to build a city, but even soon thereafter, they were also tasked to create cities of refuge and places to protect people who might've been vulnerable living in the countryside to unhealthy forms of jurisprudence. And really, I guess the thing that would maybe be flavored in a negative way would be there the sense that there we're trying to build life apart from God.
Laura:
Where do we see a shift towards a more positive point of view? I’m thinking of Jesus and how he ministered and Paul and his mission to different cities.
Mark:
Perhaps a positive view of cities begins really in the Old Testament. So even there was a vision even in Deuteronomy where Moses has been given a vision for a God glorifying city, i.e. Jerusalem. A place of worship, a place for God honoring culture where there's shalom, nothing missing and nothing broken and never realized fully, of course. So even there, the city, what city walls was designed to be built, even though it might have been an agrarian culture, still had a city for building the temple and having the nations there also that could worship there. So, we do see that positive view of the city. And Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily in 10 cities that would've been east of the Sea of Galilee and in around modern day Jordan. And so most of his ministry was around these diverse cities in Galilee.
Bilge:
I really like that Mark you started in the Old Testament. I think oftentimes we fall into the trap of pitting it, pitting the old against the new, and it's, yeah, oftentimes it doesn't do really justice to what scripture I think tries to convey. And then of course, Jesus, but then also Paul, he was very intently targeting the cultural centers of the Roman empire, which most of them are in today's Turkey, and kind of try to build a movement out of that. And I mean, you really can see his strategic thinking and intentionality behind that, that he basically stayed within the borders of the Roman Empire, PAX Romana. Because there's law and order to a certain degree. There was one language, he was familiar with the language, he was familiar with the culture, and then the travel routes, there was infrastructure. It made a lot of sense, and he used all that to spread the gospel.
Laura:
So Mark, how has this transformed you to see these things?
Mark:
Yeah, I think that the ways that it's probably influenced me a lot has been first the profound courage and humility and resilience of leaders in cities. So in the west we have a lot of safety and convenience, and I see many leaders around the world that are serving in many more challenging situations. So it's just remarkable to see the work that they do and how fortified they are in Christ. It's also hopefully made me to be much more culturally agile and careful about privileging certain things that I thought were true and important, but they may be stemming just from my identity as a white male growing up in the United States. Instead of saying, hey, I don't need to privilege that. That's just one way of thinking. So being a part of a global community, you begin to see the things that have formed you that were part of your formation, but they don't require them to follow them to be biblically faithful, for example.
Laura:
I really would love to hear how City to City's visions has impacted your life, how you've taken it on?
Bilge:
I think Center Church caused me to think about my place of upbringing and my personal story. And made me realize I think that one of the largest people groups that are unreached are the Turks. And there's very few churches, and even when you hear Mark's answer, I think the US is considered post-Christian, but Turkey you would probably consider pre-Christian. So, we have probably 22 million people in Istanbul, which is the current official number, probably more. And we probably have, 2000 Christians in the city. So the level of what you can see even in regards of city theology and how it impacts is very different. You are working on a micro level in your church sphere and try to emphasize vocation and work and mercy ministries. But the level to which you can see the cooperation is much smaller. So when we had the big earthquakes, I mean millions of people got displaced, probably hundreds of thousands died in the region in a very large region in the southwest of Turkey, southeast of Turkey. The government was really overwhelmed and there was not much first aid. It was more the people that rallied up. I mean, everybody rallied up and specifically the churches from all over the country rallied up.
Laura:
Oh, wow. What would you say Christians in Turkey in general, or perhaps even just specifically in cities, what are their attitudes towards the city and do they have a developed theology in a wheat, at least in New York, and anyone who was in Tim's church had a theology of the city or was familiar with that, but how does that work where you are?
Bilge:
Yeah, I would say that the average believer has more negative outlook on the city. It's more that you live in the city because you have to, because it is a place where you have opportunities in education and work and career. But if you could, you'd live back in the countryside, and we have a lot of great ocean side. So you’d live close to the ocean and close to the beaches and not in the crowded city of 22 million people. At the same time, I think because we have also an overemphasis on the personal salvation or the personal aspect of the gospel, the individual aspect of the gospel and less of the corporate side, there's also the secular sacred divide. You see a lot of Turkish people who become believers and would have excellent environments and opportunities to influence culture and their environment with the gospel, that they're basically leaving their field of vocation and then they're just hired for a Christian organization. We've lost people who were in the arts, who were on television, who had all this great spheres of influence. And then because of this more dichotomous view of your faith, you say, oh, let's just get you out of the world. Let's just give you a more sanctified work, which is then working in the Christian sphere and it's lost opportunities I think.
Laura:
That's very interesting. Mark, what sort of theology of the city do New York Christians have and what are the views of Christians maybe generally in the broader population of the states towards urban centers?
Mark:
Well, when we think about New York, it is the body of Christ is a diverse mosaic of theologies and traditions and people who have arrived here at different stages. So it'd be difficult to put them in kind of one monolithic expression. But a couple themes that are fascinating for me, one is that we had a program a couple years ago in New York where we were working with lay leaders in the church who pastors had identified them as leaders in the church. And we brought them together to learn together because some of the churches said, well, it would be better for scale and excellence to have 20 churches doing this together than just my church. So we ran that program for a couple years, and one of the fascinating experiences for some of them is many of them had grown up in maybe first gen churches that privileged a certain view of the city?
Mark:
That tended to be a little bit more of the dichotomy that Bilge’s talked about, maybe a little bit more of pietistic in its view of spiritual formation. But these leaders all now on a journey of saying, hey, that formed me at the beginning, but I do want a more robust nuanced view of what the city is, how I could serve it. I shouldn't disdain it. I should think about using my unique gifts here and seeing both the opportunities and the challenges. So that was just one segment because we're also getting new people here all the time in the city, particularly, let's just say Manhattan center city, the more intensely, let's say professionalized part of the city, but not fully because there are lots of pockets that aren't, is that people haven't been formed by the city either ecclesially or culturally. And so they're coming with views about the city that can be very different.
Mark:
So, I tend to see those who maybe are newer here may have more romantic notions of the city, or they're here just to kind of use it for their own purpose. And I think the project of the church both here and others, is to kind of shift the tracks of history by moving themselves into more of a missional mode of really engaging culture. So I think churches, this is their project, this is their endeavor in cities, is to be forming people who are followers of Jesus, yes, but followers in a city that has the potential to derail them or to allow them just to consume the culture. So this is a difficult assignment, but it's one that we just need to keep always figuring out, right? It's difficult to do, how can you begin to change the things that you are interested in and occupy your affections? But that's a hard journey.
Laura:
And what should some of the pitfalls in terms of narratives a person might take up regarding their work? You talk about missional, I mean, I'm thinking it would be easy as Bilge stated, to think, okay, well now I'm on a mission to evangelize, so now I have to leave the area of my calling. There's that whole taking up the cross. What does that really mean in terms of vocation and mission?
Mark:
Yeah, I think maybe the starting place for each person might be to identify the powerful cultural narratives that have shaped who we are, that we just take as givens, and then as a result, there may be more powerfully animating our behavior, our motives, our character than we realize. So we all can't avoid those powerful narratives that the culture continues to attack us or come our way, but we do need to be better at subverting them. So identifying them and subverting and say, hey, I understand that the culture wants me to find my truest self.
Mark:
Speaking of cultural narratives, quintessential New Yorker and comedian Jerry Seinfeld concedes to the influence of New York City.
Jerry Seinfeld:
I am so madly in love with New York City, I didn't know how to be. And in New York, they say, this is how you do. This is what you do. Here's how to be.
Laura:
For Jerry, the culture of New York City became the thing he allowed to shape him. Let's go back to Mark and Bilge and hear more about how the gospel narrative should be shaping us.
Mark:
And the way I'm going to find myself is doing all these kinds of things, and that can appear so true and right. And son when we're in Christian community, hopefully there is the beginning of saying, Hey, what about that actually may not be true and faithful to the Bible? And then how can we join a few others that are thinking these things through about how we spend our time, how we invest our financial resources, the objects of our prayer life? If you want to get discouraged quickly, ask Christians about what they pray for. Not that they pray, but what the objects of their prayers are. I think that if we can begin to change what people pray for and what people give their time to and how generous they are with their financial resources is one way of thinking about decreasing the grip on all the narratives that are powerfully shaping our hearts and our imaginations all the time. So I think practices are really important to continue to form us because we know that we're weak and vulnerable and need them. So I don't like going to the gym three times a week to decrease the fact that I'm losing muscle mass as I age. I don't like that. I'm almost 60, but I do it because I know I need to do that.
Laura:
And you're always glad you did, right?
Mark:
Generally, but today my back is sore. Yeah. But that's okay.
Laura:
I really appreciate that. Bilge, I'd love to know all your thoughts.
Bilge:
Totally agree with everything Mark said. Preach it, brother. Seriously, I think there is a big problem, and Mark was mentioning about the narratives. You can even call it alternative religions or world views. I mean, consumerism, capitalism, all the isms. I think if you have a Muslim visiting the church, he or she will stick out and you'll recognize it. But if you have a capitalist in your church, you won't.
Laura:
Are we at risk of becoming apathetic towards cultivating our cities if we are too heaven focused? Or is that a false dichotomy?
Bilge:
Yeah, I mean, speaking of from the background of the mainly Muslim population with a very, very struggling economy, the problems are so big that you can't just ignore 'em and hope for things to get better in the next world. Again, as a pre-Christian country, I would say we're compared first, with Islam and the other world, orientedness is one of the things that people tend to criticize. You know not doing anything, not contributing to the common good. I mean, we just baptized four people last summer and one, and all of them are really struggling because of systemic injustices. One is working two jobs, can barely make it to church because he wants to marry, and the minimum wage is so beyond low. It's just not enough to make a living. I mean, another person who was baptized was immediately put on a death threat, and the family was like, we're going to find you, we are going to kill you. You can't just fold your hands and just wait for that to unravel. So I think maybe that's the difference. If you're a little bit more in the east, there's a new emergency every morning. So yeah, I think the church needs to answer the real problems that the people have.
Laura:
Thank you. Mark, what would you say here are the differences or the challenges with that? Is it complacency?
Mark:
Yeah, it could be. Maybe it's the same muscle, we need to go back to kind of foundationally to say, is grace a sufficient motivator to change our behavior? And the Bible and in particular is always saying it is. There's a sufficiency there. What you need to do is you need to go mine the riches of it so that it is so compelling to your affections and your hearts and your actions. And then more directly to your question, I do think we have this idea of the certainty of a hope that there is going to be, someday, from the end of history and in the end of biblical history, that there is going to be a new Jerusalem, and we won't fully realize that today. But knowing that there's going to always be signs of flourishing in some cities, whether it's in a new church, whether it's in people coming together to deal with some stubborn fact. It might be faithful witness in the context of persecution. So knowing that those things are going to be true someday where Christ is returning and he is going to be that glorious hope is a powerful to keep us sustained for the work. Now, even when there's times of discouragement, I generally wake up even though there's a lot of things that could discourage the work that we're doing in cities, I generally wake up going, I wonder what new things God's going to do and look forward to that and generally keep my eye upon those things and celebrate as much as I can.
Laura:
Well, Bilge and Mark, thank you for this very illuminating conversation on the theology of the city.
Mark:
Yeah, it was my delight. Thank you for taking time to talk about it and having me think more and more about this topic that's so important to our mission together.
Bilge:
Yeah, it was a great seeing you again, mark. And thank you, Laura for directing this conversation.
Laura:
This is To Be Continued with Tim Keller. I'm your host, Laura Sauriat. Thank you so much for listening. We hope today's episode inspires you to continue the conversation, which you can do by sharing this podcast within your own circles. City to City is a nonprofit whose vision is to see the gospel of Jesus Christ, transform lives and impact cities. To learn more, visit redeemercitytocity.com. Follow us on social media at RedeemerCTC. All of the above can be found in our show notes. To Be Continued is produced in partnership with Redeemer City To City, our producers are Stephanie Cunningham and Rebekah Sebastian, audio engineering by Jon Seale.
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Stand clear of the closing doors please.