EP 52 Turns Out Smiling Is Free: Aric Bostick on Attachment Theory and Why Your Face Is an HR Problem

Tony and Steve welcome Aric Bostick, keynote speaker, former classroom teacher, professional crowd-energizer, and the man Steve publicly credits for telling him to get on a stage when he was just some guy with a book idea and a lot of enthusiasm. Aric brings the science of attachment theory out of the therapy room and drops it straight into your org chart.  You'll learn why people leave companies that pay more to work somewhere they feel seen. Why your resting face is already sending a message to your team (it's probably not the one you want). Why "soft skills" is the wrong name for the hardest thing most managers will never learn.

For the record, Tony has never made a mistake.

Learn more about Fantastic Tony Benjamin at: https://www.thegrangellc.com/
Learn more about Steven "Big Deal" Smith at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/
Learn more about the Books mentioned on the podcast at: https://thehiringtreebook.com/hr-life-podcast
Learn more about Dyno Outfitters at: https://www.utahviaferrata.com/
Learn more about MegastarHR at: https://www.megastarhr.com/
Learn more about Pucks for Autism at: https://www.pucksforautism.com/

Creators and Guests

Host

Fantastic Tony Benjamin

I am a unique HR leader with more than 20 years’ experience working for some of Utah’s oldest, fastest growing, and most well-known companies. My experience includes Superior Drilling Products, Air Medical Resource Group, Control4, Ovivo USA and Deseret Book. I am a regionally recognized authority on building successful cultures and am an alumni speaker at DisruptHR SLC and DisruptHR St. George. I have earned an MBA from the University of Phoenix, a Bachelor’s degree from Utah State University, and am a certified Professional of Human Resources (PHR). I'm married to a woman out of my league, have three brilliant kids I doesn’t deserve and, although I travel a lot, live in Vernal, Utah.

Host

Steven "Big Deal" Smith

Steve will be the first to tell you that recruiting is marketing. He earned his Bachelor of Science in Finance at Brigham Young University and started his career in recruiting in Feb 2005. In 2008, he took a risk during a recession to help start a new company with Ryan Kohler, called ApplicantPro, a full suite HR platform for small to mid-sized businesses. In March 2025, ApplicantPro became iSolved Talent Acquisition, now serving 177,000 clients and close to 9800 employees. Before the merger, ApplicantPro made the Inc 5000 list 12 years in a row, Top Places to work in Utah 3 years in a row, and Steve was named the Small Business Utah HR Achievement Award winner in May 2024. iSolved was also named an Indeed Platinum Partner in 2023, 2024, and 2025 and is one of only ten ATS platforms in the country to obtain that designation. SHRM-CP & PHR certified, Steve currently volunteers on the Utah SHRM State Council as the immediate past State Executive Director. His book, The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction, was released in early 2023, and has helped thousands of organizations across the country rethink their approach to hiring. If you need help understanding the principles and role of SEO, marketing, and AI when it comes to attracting job seekers, Steve provides a solid framework for hiring effectively.

What is The HR Life Podcast?

The HR Life Podcast is a show about the work-life experience of those of us in Human Resources and business leadership. This long-form podcast is a conversation, casual, and not always the corporate line. Hosts and guests touch on everything from serious or even controversial topics to the absurdity of modern American business practices. Your hosts are Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of The Grange Strategic HR Consulting, and Steven J. Smith, Author of The Hiring Tree: Laws of Applicant Attraction and all-around important guy. Guests include the best minds in the HR world. Join the show weekly.

Tony Benjamin (00:07.507)
Welcome to the HR Life Podcast, a podcast about the work-life experience of those of us in human resources and business leadership. Your hosts are fantastic Tony Benjamin, owner and founder of the Grange strategic HR consultant, and Stephen Big Deal Smith, who started warping the minds of SHUR members way back in 2008. Hey Steve!

Steve-o (00:32.334)
Warping their minds.

Tony Benjamin (00:35.509)
That's right. That's right.

Steve-o (00:37.654)
And I've been controlling them ever since.

Tony Benjamin (00:40.373)
Well, that's kinda what I thought. I I thought that like you were on a on a quest for power in the HR world and you just slowly corrupted everything around you into your view. Am I right?

Steve-o (00:47.798)
Is that what it was?

Wow.

Absolutely. Yep. I just want everybody to believe what I believe and that's it.

Tony Benjamin (00:56.779)
That's right. Okay, as long as we're open about that.

Steve-o (00:59.992)
Because that's how you that's how you win people over. That's just how it works.

Tony Benjamin (01:04.671)
Well, I'll tell you right now, I've learned well, I I'll tell you what. I have I've learned a couple of things. I do want everybody to agree exactly with me, and I always agree with those who agree with me. So there you go.

Steve-o (01:05.998)
Said no one ever, by the way, but yeah.

Steve-o (01:14.622)
This is true. Yeah, yeah, this is also true. I you know, I'm glad you're honest with yourself. That's great. It's a good

Tony Benjamin (01:21.695)
Well thank you, Steve. It's it's my inner childhood coming out and I'm all good.

Steve-o (01:28.718)
You know, technically I started my HI career in five, but two thousand eight was when we started iApplicants, which then became Applicant Pro. So there you go.

Tony Benjamin (01:33.055)
Yes, but what

Tony Benjamin (01:38.323)
So isn't two thousand eight though when you started volunteering at Sherm?

Steve-o (01:43.662)
yes, it is because and do you know why that happened? That was that actually ties into my chicken little story. We gotta introduce Eric.

Tony Benjamin (01:45.205)
That that's kind of what I was going to.

Tony Benjamin (01:51.056)
please tell okay, hold on just a second. Before you do that, because he's he's dying to chirp in, is Eric Bostik is joining us today, everybody. Wait.

Steve-o (01:57.602)
I could tell. Yay, Eric.

Aric Bostick (02:00.844)
Thank you so much. I'm just enjoying this banter. Woo! High fives all around. I love it. I love it.

Tony Benjamin (02:04.073)
There we go. The crowd's going wild.

Steve-o (02:04.568)
Ha ha

Now we all know that Eric is used to the crowd cheers and so this should not be new to him.

Aric Bostick (02:11.771)
Ha ha ha.

Tony Benjamin (02:12.459)
That's that's exactly right. That's right. That's that's exactly right.

Aric Bostick (02:14.7)
Thanks guys. Well, I I wanna hear this chicken little story. I've gotta hear it. I'm on the edge of my seat.

Steve-o (02:18.786)
Well, you know, when you so what was

Tony Benjamin (02:21.223)
It re it goes back to the time when Steve was a chicken. That's the you know, before

Steve-o (02:24.279)
Yeah, there you go.

Aric Bostick (02:24.29)
Ha ha ha.

Steve-o (02:27.532)
Wow. Well, I was I was consulting with an organization who was struggling with their hiring practices. And after about a month, they finally just said, we're just gonna make you an offer and bring you on because we don't we just don't know what we're doing. Well, my first week, it turns out they were going through an audit for their I9s. They had over 600 I9s that were out of whack. And we had to fix them all and and it was like a $900,000 fine. And one of my colleagues, Kimberly, she was working with us at the time as well.

Tony Benjamin (02:28.575)
Ha ha.

Steve-o (02:56.918)
Over the course of like three months, we basically saved the company those fines because we we got everything in order and did all the things we had to to get the I9s corrected. And what was crazy about it is that was what forced me or or at least prompted me to look at Sherm as an option for learning and an option to become certified and understand laws and all that stuff because I was like, this was just whack. Like, holy crap, I did not want to go through this. So I go through and I I go get my certification.

in December, because that was around September or so of that year. In December, I go take the test and, you know, kind of studied on my own and got certified and went to this for my first term conference. And that's where I learned about all these legal things that I thought were so cool. And I came back and said, hey guys, we need to change everything and we changed a whole bunch of stuff in the company. And it turns out didn't apply. Like it all of it was for like a different type of industry. Like there are certain laws that only apply for certain factors. And I was way too excited.

Aric Bostick (03:49.058)
Thank you.

Steve-o (03:54.904)
So it was like chicken little. I was scared, you know, telling everybody the sky was falling and realistically it didn't even apply to our industry. And so we had to backtrack. It was embarrassing in in all honesty, but but yeah, I learned a lot that year. So there you go. So I call it my chicken little story because I I do see it in the profession. There are people that take a certain element of HR and they completely make it sound like it's the only option to be successful or or that we have to do this. And it turns out they don't.

And and I think that's important. And when you talk with business leaders, that's why it's important to really understand where the business leader is coming from and what they're trying to accomplish too, so that you can guide but not force and obviously don't act like chicken little, like this guy is falling. So there you go. Yeah. Really important.

Aric Bostick (04:24.329)
Mm.

Aric Bostick (04:38.551)
Yeah. Right. Well, I love it though. Yeah, for sure.

Tony Benjamin (04:43.339)
That's that's the story. It's it's a sweet story, Steve, and every time I hear it I feel a little bad for you and I have more empathy and I just wanna I I just wanna reach through and give you a hug and make you feel better 'cause it's obviously scarred you ever since. Yeah.

Steve-o (04:45.474)
Yeah.

Steve-o (04:52.012)
You shouldn't feel bad for me. I

We all need to feel that sometimes, right? That we're chicken little and that we make a mistake and we we need to honor I I just I don't think that we really learn if we don't make mistakes. I and you know, it doesn't feel good to make mistakes. I'm not saying that that's the the end all be all and we should shoot for that. We we certainly shouldn't. But you know, the mistakes are w have what developed me into the type of leader and mind molding that I've

Aric Bostick (05:09.163)
Hundred percent.

Steve-o (05:25.976)
been able to accomplish, I guess, in that sense. So there you go.

Aric Bostick (05:28.969)
Yeah, you know, I think that your vulnerability was appreciated as I'm thinking of other people listening to this. And I'm I think you could almost have a workshop just on people sharing war stories of mistakes they've made, just to you know, feel that same little gosh, you're not alone and boy, I've been there and I've done that and I think it's what brings people closer, is not our perfection but our imperfections. So I I I appreciate that story.

Steve-o (05:49.974)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (05:52.368)
I just gotta say that that's that's awesome. This is why Eric's on No, I I w I wanna be very clear about this. I've never made a mistake. I once thought I did, but I was wrong, and it takes a big man to admit when you're wrong. So

Steve-o (05:55.694)
Tony's never made a mistake, so there you go.

Aric Bostick (06:07.307)
Wrong about making that mistake, yeah. That I love it.

Tony Benjamin (06:08.671)
That's right, that's right. No, no, you you got it. That's that's the absolute truth. No, I I had a friend in in when I was a little kid and he had that on a poster and I've never forgotten it. Like it's stuck in my head ever since. So well, Eric, thank you for joining us today. If y if first of all, if you haven't if the you listeners have not seen Eric speak somewhere, which rock are you s you are you lying under? Because Eric seems to be everywhere.

Steve-o (06:10.144)
Wow.

Aric Bostick (06:21.845)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (06:37.993)
A matter of fact, one of the things that I note about Eric is when he goes and does all these keynotes and he's speaking to people and running these these workshops and all that sort of stuff, if you look at one spot in the room very long, Eric won't be there anymore. Like he's jumping around, he's going all around all over the place. And I was thinking, man, that guy has more energy. He he'll burn more calories in that hour or two that he's talking to us than I will in three quarters of the day. So anyways.

Aric Bostick (06:51.953)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (07:06.079)
Well, I I my energy's what kinda got me onto the big stage, which is just that you know, as a former classroom teacher getting students fired up and then I started helping my fellow educators do the same thing. But people that are listening to this, if they haven't seen you rock an HR conference afterwards with your band, then they haven't they haven't lived, you know. So but I appreciate those kind words. But yeah, I I try to bring a lot of energy to everything I'm doing and and that's really kind of what I think HR co i can do.

Tony Benjamin (07:23.881)
Okay, well yeah. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (07:36.103)
is bring a a level of energy and connection to the workplace that can you know really be a human resource you know to to others so I really talk about that a lot of my presentation about HR professionals is that we really got to take care of ourselves so we can take care of others and then bring that that fire and connection enthusiasm to the workplace.

Tony Benjamin (07:56.62)
So th that's perfect. And it we're we're about to get into all this. So for our listeners, we talked, I don't know, it was four or five episodes ago about that was our our first episode we talked about toxic environments. And then we were gonna kind of go through this and we were gonna have a series of two or three of where maybe we're not saying everything about toxic environments, but we were gonna talk about how to get out of those things and and Eric, that's when that is when

your name popped into my head. It was like we gotta get Eric on here because he provides you provide a key resource into getting rid of those. So this is part two, everybody. This is this is part two. So so Eric, tell us about you. Who are you? What do you do? And how did you get where you are? That's right.

Steve-o (08:31.736)
Very true. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (08:33.547)
Great.

Steve-o (08:36.93)
Yeah, a story. you talked about being a teacher, right? Talked about being a teacher a little bit, but where do we go from there?

Aric Bostick (08:39.937)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, thank you, Steven. Thank you, Tony. I really am honored to be on the show. You know, I haven't met both of you after you know, it was part of the keynoting the H the Utah HR State conference. but my my background is as a

a teacher and a coach and why I became a teacher and a coach is because I'm one of those kids who comes from a a challenging background. you know, my parents split when I was young. my dad was a a recovering alcoholic. My mom had emotionally, you know, dysregulated, unstable. And I score six on the adverse child experience test. For those of you out there know what the ACES test is, which is I'm seven times more likely to be an alcoholic like my father, ten times more likely to take street drugs and twelve times more likely

Steve-o (09:26.763)
that's rough.

Aric Bostick (09:26.869)
to attempt to attempt suicide, you know? And this is not what people want to hear, but I'm trying to set us up for the if you understand that every single person that you are in the workplace with has a story.

Steve-o (09:30.625)
No.

Aric Bostick (09:39.23)
And my story is a part of how I saw the world. And so I became a teacher and a coach because I had a teacher really in a coach make a difference in my life after went and going to live with my father. and that's why I became a teacher. I wanted to make a difference. But my first year teaching, I had the worst year ever because of an adult, not because of the kids, because of, you know, mistreatment from an adult. And why people are leaving the workplace and why people are leaving organizations is not

the usually the work, it's the relationships. And I was so treated so terribly by, you know, my you know, boss, if you will, the the head coach I worked for, and then not being seen and supported by my you know, principals and other colleagues, I almost gave up teaching.

Tony Benjamin (10:09.611)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (10:25.445)
after one year and I'm a first generation college student, kid who had to, you know, take remedial math in college to, you know, pass and I mean, I all I ever want to do was be a difference maker. And but because of, you know, how I was treated, I almost left this, you know, really wonderful profession. But s luckily I got a mentor that said, don't give up yet, come teach at our school. And because of how I was treated by the principal and the assistant principals and my colleagues, I mean I just began to thrive and it just made all the difference. And I started an after school program.

teach help kids that had nowhere to go after school and sort of this after school problem called the goal setters club and that led to you know being featured on local television which led to my speaking career for students and educators but then

so many times someone would come up to me and say, My husband, my wife is an HR. they need someone like you. They have a toxic work environment. They need this kind of understanding of how we build relationships and build culture. So I end up applying for a couple of HR conferences, but then I I got the Southwest HR conference, that big one they have there. And yeah, and that led to dozens of HR conferences all over the state. Then I know the Alabama State Conference and then in Canada and

Steve-o (11:28.437)
in Texas.

Aric Bostick (11:38.637)
And a ton of you know, corporate stuff.

Tony Benjamin (11:39.573)
But but let's just be straight up let's just be straight about this. None of those were as important as as the Work Elevator Conference. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Let's just let's just put that out there. That's right

Aric Bostick (11:46.102)
The Utah HR conference.

N no question. That was the pinnacle. I knew I'd finally made it a few years ago when I finally got to the HR conference and leading to this podcast is it's the pinnacle. So yeah, so again, you know, and I I could tell if you know, just to backtrack, you know, Steve, if it was kind of making you feel uncomfortable about hearing my story, it I will tell you that is the thing that most of us don't wanna hear, right? But again, if you're gonna be great in this profession as an HR person, taking time to learn people's stories.

Tony Benjamin (11:55.467)
That's right.

That's I'm glad we're all recognizing that. Yeah.

Steve-o (12:12.237)
Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (12:18.029)
It's gonna cut so much time down.

On the relationship building, the culture connection, the trust you build, because people all just want to feel heard and seen, and they're all coming from a different background. And Jeffrey Yip and his colleagues, this book, this really dense article on workplace attachment, it literally says every woman that's coming into your workplace is going through their own invisible version of an attachment struggle. Meaning, I want to be seen, I want to be feeling safe, I want to feel connection, and we think they're just there for a job and to make a

Living. That's the byproduct and the the connection comes through when we have great leaders and HR professionals who take seriously, hey, I want to get to know this person to the best of my ability. We don't all gonna hear everybody's deep life story, but I will tell you, when you do know about that person, then from an attachment lens, you can approach them.

Steve-o (12:54.872)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (13:12.499)
in a correct way when you have to have a difficult conversation, when you're trying to motivate them, inspire them to maybe take on new initiatives, or when you roll out change. Change to the brain equals danger. And so it is just so key that we really go deeper into the psychology of understanding how these relationships work. And it always starts with understanding your own story, why you connect with other people's in certain ways and why some people trigger you or bother you and why others you want to feel close to. And once you have that understanding it's like taking the red pill from the matrix for those of you that are

from the 90s. you know, when when when when Neo takes when he takes that that red pill, all of a sudden the whole he sees the truth. And eight years ago, as a burning out motivational speaker on the road 200 days a year, running four companies and not coming home as my best version of me for the people I love most.

Tony Benjamin (13:44.979)
It's classic.

Steve-o (13:45.422)
Tony'll appreciate that.

Aric Bostick (14:03.302)
It wasn't until I had an attachment specialist help me understand what no therapist, I've been therapy since I was thirteen, helped me understand, this is why I can't say no and overshare and overextend and talk too much and can't listen and don't really take care of my people because I'm too busy trying to get my needs met for leave seeking approval.

Tony Benjamin (14:21.227)
Wait, wait, are you talking about me or you now? Sorry, I lost that. Yeah. Right, right.

Aric Bostick (14:23.325)
That's right, right? We all we can relate to all that. And then once you kind of see that, then you can actually have this self-awareness. And so, you know, I know one of the questions you were thinking about asking me is kind of how to get into a teaching attachment and you know, why is this so important?

Steve-o (14:23.566)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (14:35.103)
Yeah, yeah, let's let's go there. Let's talk about what is attachment theory and then then let's touch on how you got into it. 'Cause that's where you were going and and I but I wanna highlight that for everybody. That's what we're talking about here. So go tell tell us about attachment theory and then how you got into it. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (14:41.576)
Yeah.

Steve-o (14:46.702)
Yeah. I love this concept.

Aric Bostick (14:46.814)
Yeah

Yeah, thanks. So you know, for all those years, first 17 years of my career, I'm just getting people fired up, kind of Tony Robbins, you what remember your why and you know, being the most motivated person in the room and really, you know, not realizing there's so much going on beneath the surface that affects someone to be motivated and and be able to connect with others. And so once I started learning about attachment science, just I hired this person just to help me with time management because I just couldn't say no to every single opportunity. And it turns out

my insecure attachment. I lean towards anxious attachment. There's there's four attachment styles, but attachment is the science of the development of human relationships across the life course. So it's the quality and development of our relationships across the life course. It's how our nervous system

gets wired based on the relationship. And it's our earliest relationships, those with mom and dad or caregivers that wire what we call our internal working model, meaning the the way our neuropaths are formed before we could ever speak by how our parents responded to us in a time of need. And so, you know, going back to me telling my background, when you have a a dad who was around the clock alcoholic from zero to three years old, and a mom who was surviving, no one was meeting that need.

And so my default position became anxious, which is to keep making noise until you gave me attention. And that led to me becoming the class clown, the most talkative in school, the person who got in trouble for talking too much in classrooms. But as a teacher, I could capture your attention. As a coach, I could get you highly motivated. But I never knew how to turn it off. Never knew how to take care of me. Never knew how.

Aric Bostick (16:32.832)
I was accidentally pushing away some people when I had the goal of getting them to come close. And so when you understand, my gosh, it's anxious attachment style, it's my nervous system, meaning I'm in my downstairs brain of fight, flight, freeze or faint, and not in my upstairs brain to where I can have imagin have imagination and thinking and curiosity and clarity and also be able to self regulate my emotions. And then once I had this awareness, I go, my gosh, I can

Be different in my relationships just through having awareness of why these feelings are coming up and learn how to breathe and regulate my emotions. Today I've meditated three times. I did a cold plunge this morning. You know, before our call, I literally took two hours rather than before. I would probably work right up to this call.

And I said, wait a minute, I get to see Tony and Steve. I took took two hours just to walk, meditate, write notes, and just kind of try to do everything I could to be able to hopefully come to this prepared emotionally, but also, hey, you're not gonna be you talking for the 45-50 minutes. Make sure you toss the ball back over. Hey, so Steve, what do you think? Hey, Tony, having an awareness that there's two, you know, three people in this conversation. And before I couldn't do that.

Tony Benjamin (17:54.252)
That's that's really good. And I just so you know, I always have to calm myself down and prepare and stuff to talk to Steve too. So I I take a walk, I I I've never tried a cold plunge, but I might. That that sounds like a good idea.

Aric Bostick (18:00.96)
Ha ha ha.

Steve-o (18:01.486)
Ha ha.

Wow.

That might be a new thing for you, huh, Tony? I I'm curious, Eric, you had mentioned the anxiety as one of those. What what are the other three attachment components?

Aric Bostick (18:10.677)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (18:16.672)
Great question, Steve. So secure attachment is the I see obviously the ideal, and only about half the population is securely attached. And what that means is your parents were consistent, not perfect, but consistent in responding to your needs in a warm, nurturing manner. They didn't have it perfectly, but consistently you knew that when I have a need, my parent comes. And that means, you know what? I'm a value, I'm loved, lovable. And then you know what? I can regulate my emotions, I don't take the whole

world personal, I can navigate conflict because that's how it was navigated with me. And so there's secure attachment is the is the goal and not about half the population is there. The three other sec insecure attachments, there's anxious as I explained, there's avoidant, and then there's disorganized. So anxious is what we have the they have intermittent love and care growing up, meaning I love you, I love you not, I love you. I there's sometimes I come, sometimes I don't, very unpredictable. And so that creates a feeling of

Abandonment at times, a feeling of anxiety. Are you gonna approve of me this time? Maybe, maybe not. so they constantly need reassurance. And we can all see in the workplace certain p people who need that reassurance. And if you rather than go, God, he's so needy, I wonder what their story is. And then instead of making that a default, go, you know what, with an extra bit of reassurance, this person will run through the wall for me. And they're also the person that wants to grow and make sure everybody's happy. Maybe they're gonna be better in this position and not that position.

Steve-o (19:26.967)
yeah.

Aric Bostick (19:45.643)
For an avoidant attachment, avoidant when you're growing up, you're kind of more seen, not heard. Meaning, this is the kind of parent that might say, You're crying, I'll give you something to cry about. And you learn to stuff those emotions. You don't express your emotions. Your parent didn't know how to deal with your emotions. So you keep that stuff stuffed in. And then usually at the most inopportune time, it might explode. But people don't know how you how you feel. You don't have a hard time, you have a hard time expressing your feelings. And avoidance usually rise up the ladder because they're hard work.

Tony Benjamin (19:45.899)
Right, right.

Tony Benjamin (19:57.494)
Yeah. I remember that.

Aric Bostick (20:15.586)
because they avoid wanting to deal with relationships so they can get a lot of work done, but then become a boss and nobody knows how to talk to them. And they keep keep the office door closed, right? So it's really important to understand that. And then last is disorganized and that's where you have a combination of anxious and avoidant. And sadly this is only about six percent of the population, but this is where there was a lot of abuse and trauma. And so they're pretty hypervigilant, always waiting for the shoe to drop. These are your volatile employees, they might just at a moment's notice

Tony Benjamin (20:23.647)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (20:23.798)
Mm.

Aric Bostick (20:45.586)
Or they come on strong one day and then the next day you can't even find them in the in the office, you know. So they they kind of are always trying to figure out how to navigate this lack of trust and hypervigilance. So anyway, though again, I'll ask you guys as HR experts, do you think kind of just having a basic awareness of these three d you know, attachment styles, do you think it could help you inform how you might approach people in the office? I mean, that's why I'm so, you know, passionate about sharing this message.

Tony Benjamin (20:50.259)
Right.

Steve-o (21:14.582)
No, that's absolutely right. I mean, I I look at you know, even in my own personal life, I look at my wife, she is very much the disorganized type because she was abused as a child. And and we we've talked about this and I've publicly talked about this at times because I'm really appreciative of where she's coming from. Because what and really what it took is it took me understanding what was actually happening in her mind.

Tony Benjamin (21:14.955)
Go, Steve.

Steve-o (21:40.502)
and and and truly listening in order to understand her and where she's coming from to be able to address it in a much more effective way. Because the reality is is is I don't know that she'll ever fully overcome it a hundred percent in every single situation. Because it's kind of this default setting, like you said, it's it's wired. And and so when it when certain things occur in her life and I see it, I just

I shake my head, but then I'm like, okay, that sh that's not what she needs right now. What she needs is she needs somebody who is is is not being the avoidant and actually coming in and and and being there, right? And listening and and and sometimes that's all she wants. She says, listen, I don't want an answer. I don't want you to solve it for me. I just want you to listen.

Aric Bostick (22:18.432)
D a hundred percent.

Tony Benjamin (22:24.043)
All that she wants is another baby. Yeah. All that she wants. Hmm Yeah.

Aric Bostick (22:27.474)
Well, she's really blessed to have you. Yeah, you know, but what's really great about your awareness there, Steve, is so we all just want that attunement, but also your wisdom going, This was set in stone early on. And even though our brains are neuroplastic, what what Diane Poeheller says in The Power of Attachment, a book written for couples, is she quotes another great psychologist that she works with, Stanley Talkin, is that we hurt in relationships and we heal in relationships. And so your security, which she's borrowing when

You love her through those times when she's what we you know, we might say the word triggered, but really it's she's activated, her attachment style is activated. You're you're come you're comforting her, probably what she didn't get early on. And through repeated opportunities like that, that actually heals her to go, maybe I can handle these situations and maybe it's not so bad, and maybe it's not take a personal. And what I'm so passionate about sharing this with HR professionals and corporate leaders as score, as well as school leaders and teachers, is when you do that enough for someone, it

Steve-o (23:03.982)
Correct. Yep.

Aric Bostick (23:27.298)
It literally heals those neuropathways and they become more secure, maybe not all the way, but at least secure with you. And then their life is their life is better. It's like Cesar Milan with is a dog whisperer. Like you see, he takes activated dogs who don't know how to self-regulate, and he his security becomes their security. And so all mammals and some birds have an attachment system.

Steve-o (23:34.957)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (23:48.582)
Us humans would be wise to learn a lot about this so we can be better with our fellow humans and be a great husband, be a great wife who can regulate. My partner does that for me because I'm the disorganized attached. And gosh, without her, I'm not gonna have the privilege of talking to people like you.

Steve-o (24:01.934)
And and Eric, I've met your wife and and and I just remember that day we had lunch. And you know, w some things that people need to know on this episode is I met Eric right before I started my speaking gigs. I was in the middle of writing my book, and when I saw Eric speak and you know, the book and everything, and just everything he was doing, I was like, that's what I want to do. And and I just I need a pep talk, if you will. And I felt like, okay, Eric can be this good pep talk.

Aric Bostick (24:17.887)
Yeah.

Steve-o (24:29.482)
And so I went and had a conversation with him. We went to lunch at the I with the club. I can't even remember the name of the club there. And so, yeah, yeah. It was a beautiful, be very old. I think that building is probably 200 years old. Yeah. Very historic. So very old, but but just just a wonderful place for us to connect. And it from there, and Eric, you probably don't realize this, but not only did I finish the book and and launched it.

Aric Bostick (24:35.155)
Y we went to the Alta Club. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (24:41.437)
It's a historic building, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (24:56.098)
I I have spoken at over a hundred and fifty conferences since then, since that conversation. And and I can't say thank you enough, right? Yeah. Correct. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (24:59.837)
Yeah. I I I believed in you and I

Yeah, yeah. I remember the book was called Hiring Tree, if I remember right, that you were working on. And I thought it was fascinating and I thought it was great and I loved your energy and I was like, Hey, I mean go for it. And I've actually done that with lots of people that saw me speak, wanted to do what I do and and have become full time or even part time professional speakers. But that's I'm I try to do that where I've given people what was done for me. It was just one person believing you. And that's ironically what d doctor Dan Siegel says in the power of showing up. We just need one

person who makes us feel like we've got this and I'm so delighted to hear that because you have such a powerful energy Steve and I'm glad your message is getting out there. That's great. I'm glad that was helpful to you. Yeah.

Steve-o (25:34.968)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (25:42.904)
Yeah. It's it's been amazing. And like I said, I I I look back on that conversation, which is why I told Tony, I was like, We gotta get Eric on here. And he when after he had met you, he's Yep, we're gonna do this thing. Because, you know, part of the part of it so I could publicly say thank you, right? And and and the reality is is is you're right. We need somebody in our corner like that cheering mom from the stands who loves us no matter what we do on the field. I mean, because Lord knows I didn't do everything right on the field, but man, when when you've got that cheer

Aric Bostick (25:50.887)
That's kinda Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (26:12.728)
Cheerleader, if you will, that's that's you know, egging you on and doing it in the right way because they actually took the time to know you. And and in the workforce, you talk about the workforce. Holy cow, this is a great opportunity for us to recognize that there are people in the workforce that are having their struggles and their triggers or whatever we're gonna call them that gets them all pent up and and going.

And what are we doing to react to that? Are we gossiping about them? Are we just assuming, well, that's the way they always are and that it'll never change? Or are we actually confronting it? And maybe confronting is not the right word, but addressing it in a way that we're actually getting to know them and in that knowledge, using that as a tool to actually lift people up. So that that's that's what I love about your your your your presentations and just this whole concept of the attachment theory.

Aric Bostick (26:57.629)
I love it, Steve.

Aric Bostick (27:05.213)
Yeah.

Steve-o (27:05.346)
I know Tony's really dying to speak over here, so

Tony Benjamin (27:05.579)
I I am right now. I dang it, I am dying to speak. Thank you. I want to be seen. No, I'll tell you what, the first thing I learned from that conversation is that if Steve is a big deal, Eric, you're a big deal maker. And that's even cooler than being a big deal. So sorry, Steve. Now you're you're one tier, you know, there's there's there are the gods and and then there are the big deal makers and then the big deals. And that's wow. See, there we go. We our

Aric Bostick (27:08.891)
Steve, Tony, we wanna see you now. Share share with us.

Steve-o (27:15.384)
Ha ha.

Steve-o (27:24.524)
It's all right, now you know the story.

Tony Benjamin (27:35.584)
No, the E Eric, you you were here in Vernal once doing a presentation on the same thing and you and I had met before that, but when I was there watching that, I think you gave a lot of insight into how to direct people and I shouldn't say direct, how to lead. And and there's this I I really believe this that HR's responsibility is to make the employees within the company as productive as they possibly can.

That is the business function of human resources. And if you can find a way to, for lack of a better phrase, deactivate or activate that person to their potential, that one person, you should do it. And think if you can get a team, if you got a team of 10 and you can get three or four, just three or four of those people activated that way, how awesome your team will be. And it's because they're they're do like you said, you

you you meet people in those ways and then they turn on. It's like a switch comes on and man they're just they can go from the laziest whatever person you're thinking in your head to the person that's out shining and doing everything. And and of course something may happen that turns them off again at some point. But if you can activate them while they're activated while that's the wrong phrase after what you were just saying. But if you can keep them that way in that state, what we call engagement, if you can if you can keep them there

Steve-o (28:34.925)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (28:59.342)
Uh-huh.

Aric Bostick (28:59.487)
Right.

Tony Benjamin (29:02.303)
That that's where it's at. And to me, and we're gonna talk about this more in the HR life segment, but or HR and life segment, but I th this is really to me what HR is about. This is our role, finding how we turn it on. Now, when we have a piece of capital equipment in the office or whatever, we go flip a switch or we we change the oil or we do this or that to to make it better, right? Or make it function better. People are different, and this is a fantastic way to flip that switch.

so okay, before we before we leave this, well, let's let's do two things. First of all, I'm I'm way late on doing our first read. Let's do that. Let's do that. And then and then I got some more questions going down that. So looking for a team building experience your employees will actually talk about. Dino Outfitters in Vernal, Utah offers guided trips on the epic new Ashley Gorge Via Ferrata. Help your team build trust, confidence, and real connection.

Steve-o (29:39.672)
Right.

Aric Bostick (29:40.575)
Same.

Tony Benjamin (30:00.35)
All while hanging out on the side of a cliff. Reach out to build a custom experience at Utah Viaferrata.com and a shout out to Amber and her team for being sponsors. We're thrilled about having them here to on the show with us. It's a very cool experience.

Aric Bostick (30:15.537)
Sounds like an amazing, you know, opportunity. And plus, you know, just getting to hear you do an ad. What a voice, man. You got the you got the goods.

Steve-o (30:23.32)
Ha ha ha.

Tony Benjamin (30:24.533)
Thank you. That's I tell everybody that's a that's well, we do occasionally, but we we regret it afterwards. That's but no that's yeah, I'm just joking. That's the the that is a strange combination of debate in high school and working at Lagoon in the games. And because as a game working in the games at Lagoon, you had to have a Barker voice.

Steve-o (30:26.286)
That's why he doesn't let me read.

Steve-o (30:33.154)
Always regret it.

Tony Benjamin (30:50.291)
Right. You had to shout from people clear across because we used to get paid on commission. It's not that way anymore. But back when I worked there, we worked on commission. And the more you made in your game, then the the more you made, right? And so we would shout from across the way, you know, hey, come on over here, play our game, and that Barker voice. And we used to comment as people were playing the game. Here he goes, he's gonna throw, he's gonna hit it. I got really close. And the whole time you're building their excitement to play again, right? That's the whole point.

So you get debate, not fearing speaking, and then on the other hand you get that Barker voice and it turns into radio voice, which I think is awesome. So there you go. That's that's r right.

Aric Bostick (31:25.171)
Beautiful. When win when. But but you know yeah. God, he's great. Yeah.

Steve-o (31:26.55)
That's like Jeff Probst in Survivor. Jeff Probst.

Aric Bostick (31:32.511)
Well you what though it it kinda makes me think though, basic basically now I think the route you're you're about to go with this question is, you know, how do we create what are the strategies to create that connection? And even, you know, it goes back to being that barker at the, you know, lagoon to get people to come. You're still trying to make a connection. And then you talking about, he throws the ball, blah, blah, blah. Like that's helping them feel seen. And make you're just adding to people want to go where they feel

connection, closeness, seen, supported, you know, and and that's what it's all about. And and it really is you can be intentional and there are specific strategies that create secure attachment. And they cost you zero in your budget other than intentionality of your time, you know.

Tony Benjamin (32:14.889)
That's yes. No, that's exactly it. That's exactly it. And it flips on. It fli it's it's like you're turning them on. They're coming alight. It's really cool to see when someone is there and they're just rocking it and you're like, wow, that that's what I wanted. That's what I want everyone to be. all that. Now let's let's talk a little bit about it. So we it and I'm I'm I'm gonna hit you with this, make sure I understand what we're talking about. So we understand these attachment theories and why people react to them. And then

Steve-o (32:15.854)
I love that. Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (32:45.023)
What we do is we try to find a way to meet those needs or those gaps so that those people can stay out of what you called activated mode in the when they're when their attachment problem is activated, right?

Aric Bostick (32:59.262)
Correct. So I'll just do a little so John Bowlby created attachment theory over seventy years ago. He was you know, in the UK where again a lot of times they didn't they weren't about feeling and he was commissioned

Tony Benjamin (33:11.445)
Right, right. Hence Pink Floyd songs, yeah.

Aric Bostick (33:13.582)
Yeah. But he was commissioned by the World Health Organization to understand why what the s consequences were of taking the children away from their families during the you know concentration camps, right? And what he was able to stutter s you know, to discover is really the science of love or what we know now as a science of attachment, which is when there's a rupture, when you're taken from your primary caregiver who is there to meet your needs, then you develop these adaptive coping mechanisms to be able to get your needs met.

And so security only comes from being in proximity of your caregiver or the mind, the thought of my caregiver is there for me. So they may not always be there in proximity. And so that creates what's they call the you know the circle of security, which is my caregiver is my secure base to launch from and my safe haven to return to, right? So when when my child, you know, they they're crying, I'm comforting them, they're hungry, I'm feeding them, they need you know, some sort of love, they're warm, they're cold. And I

I give that to them and then they are able to go out into the world and do life, but then there's gonna be another need that comes and they circle back. Well, the workplace is the same thing. I train you, I encourage you, I show you the way, and then you go off and work, and hopefully you're in a prefrontal cortex of hey boy, my my trainer believes in me, my boss believes in me. I'm gonna go out there and do my job, and then I'm gonna have questions, I might have uncertainty. And if I come back to you and your office is open and I'm kind and patient and comforting and understanding, even if you make a mistake, then you go,

Great learning, thanks. And I won't in your mind you might want to think of yourself as like mom or dad, and you're not their father or mother, but truly you're in that authoritative position. They go back out there and keep working. And so we want to help people be in that, you know, that prefrontal upstairs brain as often as possible. So what Dr. Dan Siegel talks about with children is we want to help them feel safe, meaning they're safe emotionally and safe, obviously physically, but meaning I want to be consistent. When you come to me, I'm not gonna be a jerk. You're never you're gonna know who you're gonna get.

Seen meaning your feelings matter to me. So if you're excited, wow, I'm excited. You're sad? I want to understand your sadness. You're angry. Let me kind of get in there and understand that. Wow, I can really understand how you might feel that way. Feel seen or heard. It's right.

Tony Benjamin (35:26.709)
That it's important, that it's that the emotion is not just it it's important, it has a value. Right, right.

Aric Bostick (35:33.255)
I'm not dismissing it. So the avoidant right here they'll just be di they'll be dismissive. Hey, you got a job, no complaining. You know? I mean rather the the voice, hey, I know it's hot out there. You know, I know it's a lot of paperwork. I know I've actually to work late three days in a row. It's tough. You know what? But

We're gonna get through this together and I'm rolling my sleeves too. I just ordered pizza for everybody and we're in this together, right? And then the then of course the last part is supported, or in the baby world or infant world, we call it soothed, you know, so they're crying, we're soothing them. But as an adult, it's supported. Like, you need more PPE? Let me go get that. You know, we need we need to be new supplies, or you know, the budget is low on this. Let's talk about how we can get, you know, get that need met. Wow, you're you're understanding what our need what it's like to be here, right? And so I get you what you need, so then I

you can you can thrive out there and if I get safe seen and supported and then you're secure meaning your central nervous system is regulated on a consistent basis they trust you they can count on you well then now I'm gonna be secure too we're we're borrowing from each other's you know basically central nervous system and so that's the kind of the understanding from a you know neuroscience standpoint but the goal is hey how do I help someone feel safe seen and supported and so we teach some of the secure attachment practices

That Dr. Diane Poe Heller talks about, that Dr. Diane Siegel talks about. And they're so simple, Tony. Smiling is number one on the list. Just when you smile.

You know, it literally helps people feel more connection. There's takes four muscles to smile, sixty-four to frown, but many times some of us were in our head, we're busy, busy, busy, we're walking the hallways. How many times has this happened to you? You're busy, and if they're say if you're at home, your kids go, Is everything okay, Dad? You know, are you are you all right? I'm I'm just busy. Are you at work? You're walking the hallways, you you've got a frown on, your furrows, but am I okay? You you look like you're you're you're upset. and I'm just the busy. So learning how to kind of

Steve-o (37:06.646)
Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (37:32.124)
Put those smile on, delight in the presence, throw the eyebrows up when you see someone. Hey, it's Tony. Hey, it's Steve. Right. And you, you, good, good to see you. I mean, those kind of things actually trigger the brain. And they did this from countless studies. they call it a still face experiment, where they take a mother with a child and they play for a little bit, then she puts a frown or just a straight face on, and literally within a matter of seconds, the child comes dysregulated.

They they just all of a sudden can't even control their body. Think about times though you've been in a workplace or at a grocery store, at a restaurant, where you see someone with a straight or furrowed brow and how it affects you. How the cashier, the restaurant owner, you know.

Tony Benjamin (37:59.03)
Well.

Steve-o (37:59.178)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (38:09.471)
Yeah. No, you

Steve-o (38:12.27)
Don't people call that an RBF?

Tony Benjamin (38:15.935)
I was thinking about that, yes. I was totally thinking about that. Yes, RBF. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Aric Bostick (38:17.585)
Yeah. Yeah, it it is. It's a lot of and and people don't even know they're doing it. A superin a superintendent, I did this for a whole group of school leaders, and as superintendent, after hearing my deal, he was told often he looked angry. The next day after hearing my presentation, he was opening the school building, he saw his reflection in the in the door of of the window, you know, door and said, No wonder.

Steve-o (38:22.018)
They don't know it. They don't.

Aric Bostick (38:43.439)
I didn't even realize how angry my resting face looks, right? And so for me, when I I'm hired to go speak at schools and conferences, I literally, I conscious say to myself, smile, you know, hey, here we go. You know, and and it's amazing how that makes connection. I walk through the airport, smile on. You would believe how you'll go through a walk around Liberty Park, smile on. It it affects everyone around you and it of all the places, right? But I will tell you, it keeps them from you know attacking me because

Steve-o (38:47.874)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (38:48.159)
Right, right, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (39:06.805)
Liberty Park, that's brave. Right, right.

Right, right. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (39:13.583)
I I look like a nice guy, right? And I will tell you, I had an interesting experience at Liberty Park where I'd lost my keys in that big open place, and a homeless person found my keys and waited until I returned to my car and gave them to me. And I I don't know what that means, but I will tell you, unbelievable. But if you have a presence of kindness,

Tony Benjamin (39:20.56)
wow.

Tony Benjamin (39:26.859)
That's cool.

Steve-o (39:27.81)
Wow.

Aric Bostick (39:33.078)
Security, it affects those people around you. You know, the second thing I talk about is responsiveness, meaning when you send an email, you try to get back to people within 24, 48 hours. I be on the travel on the road to come times, it's challenging, so I always have autoresponders. But if when I do respond, it's always, and you guys probably both know it from my emails, it's you know, hey Tony, great to hear from you. Thank you so much for the exclamation points. You know, how's this? How's that? But I try to put some intention and some care.

into and some people just you you'll send someone email I will you'll spend half an hour on and you get back thanks period emoji thumbs up you know and I'm going I just spent 45 minutes making you a flyer and doing all this stuff and you and you get I get a thumbs up you know it's being intentional with you know rather than just thanks but thank you Tony I really appreciate you thanks for all that you do you know it just makes a big difference and you know the other couple things we teach is being in proximity meaning get out of that

Tony Benjamin (40:08.331)
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aric Bostick (40:31.323)
Office, walk the hallways, schedule time like a that's it, and schedule time like a dentist appointment from one to three is when I am gonna go meet so and so and so and so and have NPR for no particular reason a conversation, a connection, or once a month I'm scheduling a lunch where we just really talk and catch up. All those things really matter, and then of course the last one is like you said, the word key was presence, and when we have these one on ones, can we turn the phone off? Can we take our

Steve-o (40:34.316)
Be present, be there.

Steve-o (41:01.198)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (41:01.213)
headphones out and they feel they're the most important person in the room. And those things cost you zero in a budget, but it takes intentionality that people matter just as much as getting those tasks done.

Steve-o (41:11.854)
I love the smile factor too, because I in my office back at Applicant Pro, we one of the new people that started her name was Christine and we had the same birthday. And and so we we just got along simply because of the birthday. I mean, I think we were like five years apart, but same birthday. And she would send me like those little gifts and and in the gifts it would be something she said, you know, y you can mock And so I started making these things called Steve's gifts. And I would basically mimic the gift that they would send me. And there's this

Tony Benjamin (41:12.063)
You know, that's

Aric Bostick (41:14.201)
It's huge.

Steve-o (41:41.548)
you know, old primary song or church song where you need to smile that frown away. And and sometimes people would be frowny. And so I made a gift that actually is smile that frown away where I'm like bummed and then I become this huge smile. And and I used to send that gift out to people all the time. Just for that purpose, like, hey, don't let it get to you. If we can smile about it, you know? So

Aric Bostick (41:56.291)
a and it d exactly.

No doubt. And they'll never forget that. And one thing I love about you mentioning Christine and your shared birthday, when I do my, you know, half day, full day interactive stuff, I teach people the power of learning names. And the key to that is learning the story of the name, who who named them, what was the why behind that, who they named after. And then, you know, the small things, your birthday, what's your favorite color, TV show, music. And and then all of a sudden, when you do the birthday stuff, now you have extra, my God, he remembers. And he remembers I love Reese's Pina.

Buttercups and and diet Diet Pepsi Zero or whatever. I mean, and all these small things. And I remember Tony, you and I, when we first talked about you bringing pizza to your to your team. Was that right? But y'all would do Domino's pizza or something for if the the workers that were working at, I don't know if I was, you know, but again, the night, the night thing. But little things like that, it's surprising how that will make so much difference. Just showing a little care, right? And again, cost.

Tony Benjamin (42:47.923)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, at night. We used to take food, yeah.

Aric Bostick (43:00.403)
You zero in your budget, but thought, intentionality, thoughtfulness, mindfulness. And again, it's it's that's some effort, and it's part of your emotional mental budget, but gosh, the price it the the dividends are so high. And so this isn't rocket science, but it is science, the science of relationships, noise and attachment, you know. Yeah, return on investment, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Steve-o (43:15.085)
Yeah.

Steve-o (43:20.526)
Well, in business we call it ROI, right? So there you go. The CEO loves that word term. So

Tony Benjamin (43:20.907)
And I I re return on your investment. I yeah. Well look, I I hate this this notion that 'cause you okay, to a certain crowd everything that you just said, Eric, is gonna sound like hugs and and and you know, pats on the back and I have to baby my people along. That's right. but anyways, it's it's gonna sound really fluffy to a lot of people. And and and I guess

Steve-o (43:39.564)
Which includes Tony in that crowd.

Aric Bostick (43:41.789)
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (43:49.3)
I g I guess the important thing we want to say about this is no, this is a technique and it has a direct business return. And that direct business return is you get an employee who's trying harder, solving more problems for you. They care about the business. They care less about themselves in relationship to the business. And and you get them fully activated in that be and they're doing their hardest best work.

So, you know, we've all we've all seen the movies of the drill sergeant and the kid goes into the army and he tears him down and all that sort of stuff. And the army does that for very specific reasons. But what we don't often see in those is the little moments where the sergeant takes that same soldier aside and says, Hey dude, you were doing just fine. Don't worry. You got in trouble today. Who cares? You're good at this. You got this. Every once in a while you're gonna stub your toe. I gotcha. It's good.

I have to you know, you gotta do the you gotta peel the potatoes when you mess up. But the reality is is you're good at this. Hang in there, you got it. Right. We don't see that because that's also what they do. And it just like culturally we seem to think that if someone's struggling, if you kick they'll do better. Right? And and why not and it to your point, it doesn't take that long to acknowledge that about somebody. It really doesn't. And and I hate it when managers say to me, why do I have to change what I would say? How do I

Steve-o (45:03.662)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (45:09.461)
Why do I have to alter who I am? Why do I have to be fake? My answer is number one, don't be fake. Actually, care about someone beside yourself. And and get out there and do it. Just engage people. And number two, it really takes a lot less time than you think. Matter of fact, you mentioned three exclamation points. One of my favorite things, and matter of fact, I've got a guy that worked used to work with me, he makes fun of me for this. But like when I'm really appreciative of something somebody does, or I'm really grateful for it, I put thank you in three exclamation points.

And it's because it's not normally me, number one. And number two, it like it's so over the top for me that it looks ridiculous. But it's ridiculous in the sense, thank you, right? And that one little thing makes all the difference. I I just and y again, you engage people.

Steve-o (45:57.666)
You realize, Tony, at this point, I'm going back to every message you have ever sent me to look for three exclamation points.

Tony Benjamin (46:02.443)
Yeah, yeah.

Aric Bostick (46:03.217)
Find those. Fine archive those. But you know what? I my

Steve-o (46:06.742)
That's right. I'm gonna frame them.

Aric Bostick (46:08.731)
That's beautiful. Well, part of my logo is an exclamation point with fire on it, right? And I used to talk about the power of exclamation points. And yes, we can do literature too much. And I think it's really you make some really great points, Tony, that some people, and I even worry about this even when I'm marketing my stuff, that I'm telling people to smile and to be responsive on emails with kindness and a few extra words of affirmation. And so many school leaders and corporate leaders are so data-driven and get the job.

Done, but you know what I truly try to say is that if you want people to want to work for you and you're looking for that ROI, if you want retention, loyalty, and then of course enthusiasm, then you need to give that to them through that. I I care for you, I'm there for you, and I'm gonna actually help you grow. And that means I might give you some constructive criticism or feedback.

Because I care. And but if we have the emotional bank account, as Covey used to talk about, pretty high, that when Tony finally comes to me and says, Eric, you missed the mark last week. You know, you weren't really yourself or you didn't get that done in time, whatever. And I go, gosh, you're right, Tony Man. Thanks for I I needed that. You know, it I don't need you're awesome five times a day when I didn't earn it. But especially if I get that thank you once every couple weeks with three exclamation points, I know dad's really happy.

Tony Benjamin (47:28.747)
Right, right.

Aric Bostick (47:35.151)
and I wanna work even harder for that next one. But the truth is I need to know I'm safe with you because if I'm

Anxiously worried if you like my work because you never tell me how I'm doing, you lose capacity and you don't get the same kind of effort. People need to know how they're doing, both positively and when they're missing the mark. That constant communication at the vernal chamber leadership thing I did. I shared about their attachment styles and how insecure people need the reassurance, especially both anxious and avoidant. And this guy who ran a truck driving company, he told me, goes, Man, I never

thought about I used to tell my I tell my drivers hey if you don't hear from me it's because you're doing fine and I go I know I go I hear people say it all the time if you don't hear from me then you're fine what it helps what actually is happening in that person's brain is you don't care about me you don't care how I'm doing but if I could if I'm if I'm the driver of the the manager of all the drivers and I go hey just making sure you got in okay hey just want to let you know you got that load done and and you got an hour earlier than we expected then really good job

Tony Benjamin (48:17.291)
Right, right.

Steve-o (48:25.646)
Yep. That's interesting.

Tony Benjamin (48:25.685)
Yeah, yeah.

Aric Bostick (48:39.908)
I mean just pure logic says they're gonna do an even better job. And and when you call them and go, hey, I'm thinking about you, wondering how the how the trip's going, I noticed there's a storm coming, I feel more cared for. Now my loyalty goes up. If you want actually people to work harder for less money, and I hate to say that, then just love them a lot. Because people are working at lots of jobs because they get so much love.

Tony Benjamin (48:43.413)
Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (49:01.37)
You know, I I go to, you know, whether it be In N Out Burger or Zupas. I mean, they're on fire there. Those people aren't getting a 401k. But there's so much care and connection. Why wouldn't you want to be a part of that workplace? And in the schools I speak to, teachers leave schools that are paying them ten grand more

Tony Benjamin (49:01.373)
Right. Yes.

Tony Benjamin (49:06.922)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (49:18.22)
because they're treated terribly to go to a school where they're treated with lots of care, kindness, and let them, you know, have some autonomy and agency. So it it's it's not fluff. It's that's why I hate the word soft skills. They're not soft skills. These are hard skills. It's hard to be good in relationships, especially if you didn't have your own perfect childhood growing up.

Steve-o (49:25.39)
Big difference. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (49:36.97)
That's that's excellent. Okay, I'm gonna do the next we're gonna do our next read and then and then I wanna I wanna touch on run one thing really quick and then we'll get into our HR in life segment. Running a business is hard. HR shouldn't be. Megastar HR is here to save you from bad HR. With expert support and everything from hiring to handbooks, compliance to culture. Need payroll help or recruiting power? We do that too. Fractionally and flexibly, no overhead.

Aric Bostick (49:47.728)
Sounds great.

Tony Benjamin (50:06.281)
Just results. Visit Megastar HR.com and let's grow your business together. Thanks. Shout out to Becca for that. We'll love it. And Becca's renewed.

Steve-o (50:15.544)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (50:15.888)
Becca's the best. I want to say, hey, Becca, you're awesome. I love her. Her newsletters. She's one of those fired up people. She's great. But guys, you guys have been so kind to me, you know, shar let me just shraddle off a lot. Tell you guys tell me as this stuff is landing on you, I want to hear your stories as HR experts. How does this seem to are you guys I mean, are you picking up what I'm putting down? Am I are we on the right track here? I mean, do you give me some feedback on what you're thinking from what I'm sharing?

Steve-o (50:22.584)
She is.

Tony Benjamin (50:22.911)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (50:41.021)
I d y yeah, yeah, you hit it out of the park. I and this is and and I like and this is one of the things I love about the podcast and what we do is we get into these sorts of things. And you know, fifteen years ago in my career, if you'd been saying this sort of stuff to me, I would have been saying, don't let's not give people hugs. That's not what we're after. But the more I've come to understand human behavior, what you're talking about is the central key to unlocking it.

Steve-o (51:04.034)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (51:09.639)
It it it really is. And all I care look at the end I do care about those people because I open myself to be connected to them and I want everyone to succeed. But I my job, my role is to to get that person as productive as possible and that they cannot be as productive as possible without this element. Now training and safety and all those things come into it and all those right and and their skill set and all that sort of stuff.

Aric Bostick (51:29.788)
Hey.

Tony Benjamin (51:35.989)
But what you're talking about seems a foundation upon which they stand. So

Aric Bostick (51:40.666)
right. That's why I'm so passionate about it. Steve, I again I you you've been in the trenches, man. What do you how how some of this relates to what you're what you do? Because you're you're a big timer at this.

Tony Benjamin (51:44.063)
Yeah, d yeah.

Steve-o (51:49.174)
You know it the the biggest piece on this right now is it's very

So so recently the company that I was working for was acquired. And when things like that happened, there's a lot of change, there's a lot of questions, there's a lot of anxiety, there's there's just all of those things. And I watched how this organization actually poorly took care of those types of things and and didn't really focus on this these types of elements. And and the the thing that made it even more difficult.

Was a lot of these elements that you've already described is something that we had built to Applicant Pro for years. And it was something that our entire core team of of almost 300 employees at the time thrived on. And when you suddenly remove that overnight, wow. So I have seen the impact that not doing these things very recently, so it is very fresh for me right now.

And and so I I think that there's there's elements here that that we should absolutely as as professionals listen to and notice and recognize. And I realize that sometimes when mergers and acquisitions or things like that take place, that there are obvious changes. But if those changes are going to take place, you still need to think about the people. You still need to take into consideration what it is that they're potentially going through.

And treat them with respect, love and kindness and help them through it. And and more than anything, help the survivors who stick around who from what I've been hearing as I speak with some of them are still going through the same emotional baggage and and changes and frustrations and and doubts and fears and all those things. And it's just it's hard to hear, especially because I have such a relationship and a a

Steve-o (53:46.604)
respect for these people and and a love, honestly, a a huge amount of love for them. So so this is why I appreciate these types of conversations because it it it helps me recognize when why I was struggling the way I was and and why there was frustrations and why others are also feeling it. And just as a professional, what I can do to help counter that and and bring us back to that moment of peace and comfort and and and security, like you said. So

Aric Bostick (53:48.474)
Yeah. Yeah, of course.

Aric Bostick (53:54.864)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (54:14.458)
Yeah, exactly. You can help them be more secure by letting them know they're not alone and those feelings. You know, again, it's it's again, this is what I we call it an attachment informed approach to leadership. An attachment formed would mean I understand how people feel secure. If I was as someone taking over a huge company, the first thing I would do was not change a thing. We bought this because you're amazing and I want to get it to know you guys for the next

Steve-o (54:19.33)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (54:31.79)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (54:40.898)
Which they did do at first. They do, right? Yeah.

Aric Bostick (54:42.492)
And they say that for the first five minutes, right? But then we spend the but then you gotta understand that, you know, again, like I said earlier, change of the brain equals danger. So then I'm gonna s do if I'm gonna get to know everybody's as you know

Tony Benjamin (54:43.563)
Hm. Right.

Aric Bostick (54:54.224)
as as much depth as possible, not any immediate changes. And then, you know, I might pull in. Who boy, who are my really top leaders? Boy, Steve Smith, Tony Benjamin, these guys, I want to hear what what makes this company great. What do you think is we need to work on? And then and then I don't change it. I go, okay, great. Would you guys be willing to help us initiate that change? And who else do we need on board? And then it becomes l and then it becomes led by the very core team that was already there that made this place where we wanted to buy in the first place.

Steve-o (55:16.893)
Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (55:24.038)
And we say, hey, we want to make you guys superstars. Keep leading the way for us. We'll be the good parent up here going, let me empower this person to. And then now this place is going even better. But if I come in with my way, the highway, you're just numbers, you're just people, you know, that don't matter, we'll replace you. Then you lose what made this place so great. And companies die after getting bought all the time because they didn't care about the number one asset, the human element.

Steve-o (55:28.877)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (55:47.576)
Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (55:53.88)
human potential, the human capital as as you will. You know, I'm k I mean it's just it's really it's it's so sad that in this world we can put a man on the moon but not understand how to make someone feel important. You know? It's sad.

Steve-o (55:53.944)
Yep. Absolutely.

Tony Benjamin (56:06.687)
That's the that is that's a very telling that's a that's a a a very telling point right there. And to me, if you're a business owner and you're going to buy a business, ask yourself what you are buying. If you just want the intellectual property, then just buy the intellectual property. Why are you hiring people? If you just want a software package, just buy the package. If you just want the product, buy the rights to the product. Why are you buying the people?

And and you could you can say, well, the business owner wouldn't sell unless I bought the people. Okay, then you better make sure that they get taken care of too, because now you're invested in them. But if you don't want all that, don't. Why do you have to buy everything that the company has to get it? You don't. Just go in there, buy what you need out of that company and run with it, right? Now, if they're like, no, that is if if we don't have that, we can't do anything. Okay, great. But then you're taking on a new asset and to burn like

Why would you buy a business and burn one of its buildings down? Right? That's that's ridiculous. So the same goes with the people. Why would you have this successful team that was at least successful enough for you wanna to want to buy it? And why would you burn down their culture? That it just it makes no sense to me. And it just drives me asked.

Aric Bostick (57:08.539)
Yeah, great point, yeah.

Aric Bostick (57:17.52)
Right.

Yeah, exactly. If the humans are essential to the product, then then make them essential to the development, you know. Everybody know make the same investment. We we got already an amazing team, let's make them even better, you know. I mean, yeah, nobody buys a business that's dying, we buy businesses thriving, you know. That's true, and we see that that's true.

Tony Benjamin (57:28.626)
Exactly.

Tony Benjamin (57:38.655)
Well, occasionally you do, right? Occasionally they're on the downswing, you buy to rescue right?

Steve-o (57:41.334)
If you're a Warren Buffett. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (57:43.448)
Yeah, you buy on the way down and then but those guys usually they buy them on the way down, but what do they do? They come in and fire them back up with a a a new energy, new people, and they y I mean, exactly. Yeah, to you to your great point. Sure.

Steve-o (57:49.44)
Absolutely bring them right back up. So true. Mm-hmm.

Tony Benjamin (57:55.624)
Or or you end up breaking it up and getting rid of it. But do not hang on to it and not care. Like and not why again, why would you burn down an asset? Why would you destroy your grace value?

Aric Bostick (58:02.682)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (58:06.875)
Hundred percent. Yeah, and I naively said about b buying businesses that are going down. No doubt we buy businesses that are going down but but but because we still see value there, right? And then t t usually the turnaround comes with usually an injection of not just finance but also h human capital, leadership, you know, whatever improvements we make. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (58:11.328)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (58:15.851)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (58:25.055)
Yeah, leadership, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steve-o (58:25.826)
Well, somebody brings the smile. I mean, that's really what it boils down to.

Aric Bostick (58:28.473)
Yeah. Somebody brings a j brings why do you think we get new football coaches and new basketball coaches and new baseball coaches and you know, I mean hire we hire different kind of people to help us grow.

Tony Benjamin (58:35.819)
Well, we in some cases, like the Browns, it's 'cause they the ownership isn't that awesome. That's why they do get new coaches. But everybody else, right.

Aric Bostick (58:42.465)
It it's it's it's but it always still starts at the top, you know. I mean I'm I'm a you know I I'm I sadly, you know, I'm from Texas and the Dallas Cowboys are hard to root for when you know that the top guy might be the biggest problem, right?

Tony Benjamin (58:45.995)
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (58:53.205)
Yes, they are.

Tony Benjamin (58:57.079)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (58:58.051)
And you can't fire the boss, you know, and that's why it really does start at the top. And that's why me and Dr. Jamie Goff, she wrote a book called The Secure Leader. She actually talks about how your attachment style is affecting your leadership style. So her and I have teamed up together and we're doing leadership training both for schools and corporations. But what's great is she's this, you know, psychologist who started finding out through all the, you know, what she was doing for Chris's, you know, health that

Tony Benjamin (58:59.882)
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (59:06.645)
There it is. Right, right.

Aric Bostick (59:24.279)
Everybody's central issue, all the managers, it was their attachment style was getting the way of their leadership style, which is what I've been saying for the last five years. You know, even though I don't have a PhD, I direct work directly with the John Bowby Center in the UK. I've, you know, immersed myself in this content. And it's really attachment has helped me better understand myself and helped me heal so I can be a speaker now that has boundaries and self-care and capacity and I show up better in front of the people and come home to.

You know, and I feel like I'm a better even presenter because I care even more about the people I'm speaking to. And it's created relationships where look at us, we're talking. I t I called Joe McKay before this. He called me because you what I've done? I've actually gone to Vernal on my own diamond time just to hang out with Joe after speaking at Vernal. Me and him and Andy went on a hour hike. We swam at that the what that cold place of anyway, like because I did it because of just the relationship building, you know, and because that's who I am.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:06.645)
Wow.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:16.713)
Okay, you you you gotta come up then and meet with Amber and go on the Via Ferrata, dude. I'll go with ya. You come up and go the Via Ferrata. Yeah. Yeah. okay, I want I got one more question for you and then we'll do the HR and I it by the way, for all the listeners, I think the what you're talking about, what we're talking about here are the answer to the toxic environment stuff. The reason that toxic political environments happen in organizations is because no one feels safe.

Aric Bostick (01:00:22.253)
L let's do it. Yeah. P let's all go. Yeah. L let's all go, yeah.

Steve-o (01:00:23.888)
I'm there too. You got I gotta come down for that one for sure.

Aric Bostick (01:00:30.81)
Yep.

Tony Benjamin (01:00:45.449)
And so if you have a mechanism for turning on the safety, that's that's where you want to start that laser foundation. And I hope hopefully that's that's been out there. okay, one last question for you, Eric, and then then we're gonna get into the the HR in life segment. What from your point of view is the state of human resources today? Like you're on the outside of that. So you have a really cool, unique what do you think the state of HR is today?

Aric Bostick (01:01:11.525)
Well, I think it couldn't be a more important time for HR leaders to really double down on their own intentionality with relationship building.

You know, we have if we really want the this human capital to continue to thrive in the workplace during this age of AI where people are losing jobs that are being but we still are gonna need humans to help do the job and and feel seen and and safe and heard. That we gotta keep our it's supposed to say we gotta keep our human touch. And again, you know, you talk about what were those things that help us with these toxic work environments. I know it wasn't revolutionary what I shared with the systems and strategies, but the truth is having a plan for how

Steve-o (01:01:37.069)
Feel safe, yeah.

Aric Bostick (01:01:51.071)
you're gonna do relationships, how you're gonna do rollouts, how you're gonna do difficult conversations, and that is taking an attachment lens, which is what am I doing to help people feel safe? What am I doing to help people feel seen? What literature am I reason reading so I could really understand how to be a supportive leader and making that my top priority rather than just getting things done. So I would think right now in a time where the whole

company cultures being disrupted by AI to say, yes, AI is helping us in many ways, but we don't need to be just having artificially intelligent lead us. We need human authenticity leading us. So I say you want to be AI, you want to be authentically human. So I I think the authentically human piece needs to be doubled down in a time where we're so scared of losing that human touch.

Tony Benjamin (01:02:43.859)
Yeah, th okay, and the implication there what you're saying is that we don't i across b business maybe we don't do that.

Aric Bostick (01:02:50.988)
I I I would say that we're just saying, you know what, it's all about making money. And we realize, you know what, these businesses are dying when it's when you're when it's all bottom line driven. It should be human and I I my th dream is that what's gonna happen is we're gonna swing to the other pendulum and people are gonna pay a lot more for whatever services because they want a human involved.

Steve-o (01:02:54.179)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:02:59.298)
Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:03:10.249)
Yes, yes. D Steve and I have been on this kick for a while now. The new coin of the realm is authenticity.

Aric Bostick (01:03:11.566)
They wanna have

Steve-o (01:03:11.776)
It yeah, it amazes me. Yeah, it amazes me how often I see on LinkedIn, especially LinkedIn right now. LinkedIn is is just chock full of this. They're like, I did this with AI and I created this. And comment below, you know, code and I'll send you my framework or whatever. And and you know, it's a way to kind of drive traffic and try to get more lead information and and contact details.

And then they send it to you because I I've responded to a few of these just to see what it what it is they do. Some of them ghost you altogether and you never hear from them. Others will send it to you if you sign up for their newsletter or what have you. And then others will send it to you, but then you read through it and you're like, well, it it it didn't it made absolutely no impact whatsoever. And and so I would I would almost ask our listeners if any of you have have responded to some of those types of posts that you're seeing on LinkedIn and you you received the document or whatever it is they sh shared with you.

Did it even make a difference for you? Because if if all I'm doing is giving you a a sheet that has some sheet that I created and I'm just trying to share it with you to capture your contact information, that's not helping me at all. And that's where that human element I think is really critical. If if if if I really wanted to help you, not only would I have you comment and I'll send you this document, but I might even have something else that I send you to say, hey, let's talk about this, maybe how it applies to you and what we can do to help you. And

You know, stuff like that that's actually meaningful as opposed to, well, here's the document I created. this and it'll it's asking me to buy more stuff now that I've got the free piece. Now here's all the other pieces, but you have to pay for it. And I get they're trying to sell stuff. I I get that, but man, there's no connection there whatsoever. And it's sad, it's sad to watch.

Aric Bostick (01:04:54.104)
No.

Well, back to the very beginning of our our call here, you know, me meeting you for lunch made a difference in your life, right? And and I wasn't I wasn't trying to sell you anything other than just connection. But look what happened. A year, you know, a couple years later on our podcast, somebody may he listen to this and go, you know what, I want my company to have more human touch, connection, authenticity, to have a culture. You know, like again, I I'm always telling my people, play the long game, just give relationship.

Steve-o (01:05:02.623)
Absolutely.

Mm mm.

Aric Bostick (01:05:26.058)
Give connection and why you know have a real response to someone's LinkedIn message. You know, your what you wrote, your words, you know, and watch how that how that lands. And if you can, you know, I'd like you know, if they rather than send you that free one thing, you get to join this free webinar and even if fifteen people show up to it, have a real conversation. You might get more business from that that than you would ever fifty thousand, you know, running all you know, emails and contacts. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:05:32.748)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:05:43.564)
Yeah, and then we actually talk. Yep.

Steve-o (01:05:52.366)
Comments. Yeah. So true. That's a good point. Maybe I should do that. I'll throw something on LinkedIn and say join this webinar and I'll teach what I typically teach at some of my sessions and show them how to implement the practices right away. They could literally leave that presentation and go do it. Yeah. Great, great comment. I'm actually gonna test that. I'll I'll update you on what happens. Yeah, I totally I'm gonna test it.

Tony Benjamin (01:05:55.369)
No, that's

Aric Bostick (01:06:02.829)
You

that'd be r real value and I a and they're and they're gonna say, Hey, let's st let's bring Steve in. You're welcome. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:14.131)
Way to go. Wow, Eric, changing lives and making big deals over and over again. That's pretty good. Okay, here we go. Now we're headed into the HR.

Steve-o (01:06:23.907)
Segue.

Tony Benjamin (01:06:38.655)
All right, all right, all right. Okay. So this is this article I picked up today is by Harry Wallop, W A L L O P. It's in the Times, as in the London Times. This is from the UK. And when you I'll put the link to this in the in the show notes, but you're gonna get one chance to look at it and then they wanna charge you money. So just be aware. So you can. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And hey

Steve-o (01:07:03.022)
Unless you have a membership with them. And and no, the podcast does not make any money off of this at all.

Tony Benjamin (01:07:09.791)
We don't. We don't. It's only a buck, so I mean, you know, take it for what it's what it's worth. but anyway, so the headline is SAC HR question mark. Maybe not, but def but definitely cut its mission creep. So the article talks about how many they said there's over a half a million HR professionals in the UK. And out of all of those,

Out of all those, how many of those people are really needed? Okay, so Steve, you and I we talked about the Bolt, the Bolt thing, where that CEO came out and said he Yeah. So maybe two we yeah. But yeah, but we we talked about how Bolt had fired its entire HR department as it was shrinking and they hired people two people to come in and people ops. Okay, so this article jumps off from there and it starts talking about it

Steve-o (01:07:47.246)
Yeah, we did. That was that was last last week, right? Or maybe two weeks ago. I don't even remember now, but maybe two ep two or three episodes ago, yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:08:09.963)
put some really cool things. It starts saying that the least trusted person in the world right now for to to trust is our podcasters. only like six percent of people trust them, which I think is hilarious. Hey, we're in that bucket. Yay for us. And then it says they're building data, but they think that the only profession that's lower rated than that is HR. And like that's awesome.

Steve-o (01:08:21.55)
Awesome.

That is hilarious.

Steve-o (01:08:36.726)
Wow. So we we just got double whammied, Tony. Podcasting and HR. There you go. I I would love to hear what our listeners have to say about that.

Tony Benjamin (01:08:40.125)
That's right. That's right. We're b in both those areas. If you're s if you're still listening to the podcast, thank you very much. we appreciate that. But anyways, it's it goes in there and it talks about now what it's talking about and what we have been talking about on this episode are completely different things. So it talks about HR who is in the way of of

managers managing and it's in the way of employees being productive. And then, you know, you get through this and three quarters of the way through that the author says, you know, there's this one guy and he this executive is C H R O and he said that, you know, everything he does with his employees is all based upon, you know, getting an ROI and the benefit of the business and meeting the business's bottom lines. As opposed to, and then he quoted somebody else that said, our they were an HR executive and they said, our

Our duty here is to make what did he say the company safe, accepting and something else, right? That's our goal. And he's like, No, no, if you're if you're gonna have HR, have it be the other and and not this. So here's my take, and then I'm wanna bounce this off to two of you. My answer is yeah, duh. So don't write an article that bashes the profession when really what you should do is write an article that says you guys are misdirected and it's hurting.

So here's what your true role should be. And I agree with that. I think here on the podcast, we agree with that. And what we've been talking about today is advanced techniques in getting to that point. But it is because they're like, just get rid of your HR department. Let your managers do all that. Let them really manage people and motivate them and everything else. And I'm like, I see that all the time at the law firm I work with. Good luck to you. Because I've seen what managers do. Right.

Steve-o (01:10:19.021)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:10:34.414)
Right. my gosh. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:10:35.273)
Now we need to change that. And HR, we need to change that, right? We need to do it. But that comes back to the fact that we don't train our managers. So, but the the whole point here is is just that's not what we're talking about. When we're talking about advanced level of when we're talking about HR's real role, it's not that. So go ahead. Eric, Steve, bounce off from that. I I'd love your guys' opinion.

Aric Bostick (01:10:55.84)
Go ahead, Steve.

Steve-o (01:10:57.58)
You know, the the first thing that comes to my mind is is the fact that that article here's the problem with social media and and even media right now. Too often we read the title and we make these assumptions about the content. And and what a sad commentary because how often do we do that in real life where we see the person in this situation they're in without getting to know their story and without digging deeper.

And and we are so inundated with these types of articles like this, and we're so used to that concept of just seeing the flashy headlines that I I fear that we're taking this into the workplace and in our relationships and all these things. And and what a sad commentary on relationships and what we're actually supposed to be doing, especially in light of what we've talked about on this podcast today. and and crazy that, you know, you you

Just like the bold CEO, it started out with this headline, like he fired his HR team, but then it talks about how he hired two people that came in and actually matched what they were trying to accomplish and their new growth patterns. To me, that was a very positive thing. But if you didn't read the rest of the article, you just go on LinkedIn and you want to rant and rave about it that, my gosh, they fired the whole HR team. Mom you didn't even read the rest of the article. So so again, we we have to be careful. And I get it that these salacious headlines will suddenly

Tony Benjamin (01:12:09.705)
Yeah.

Steve-o (01:12:22.19)
cause us to talk and like and share and and leave comments and what have you. But man, even the comments, you could tell half of them didn't even read the whole article. That is sad to me because it it it really highlights, again, people today are are we getting to know the the whole person? Or are we just taking this one little moment or episode with them and using that to make our judgment calls? That's my take on it.

Aric Bostick (01:12:52.067)
Yeah, I think it's a great take, Steve, and I'm glad Tony brought this up. You know, I I in conclusion of everything we've said today, it's really about, you know, understanding that we can't sub out the human. You know, we you can't you know, we we still gotta value what humans bring to the table. And to, you know, Tony's point too, how about just

Steve-o (01:13:05.23)
Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (01:13:14.783)
understanding that there is an expertise that HR people bring to the table, especially been trained and certified, that a manager or a CEO or executive doesn't always have. They they deal in different, you know

Steve-o (01:13:21.08)
Is that?

Aric Bostick (01:13:28.503)
I hate to use the word silos, but different focuses. And there needs to be an appreciation for what a human resource person does. Not only do they do all the other really important things like making sure you're insert, you insurance and compliance and payroll on, but hey, I'm there to be that open door when someone needs to be heard. And I'll keep you out of a lot of trouble because I understand the law.

And understand humans and what they need, especially when they're activated or have made a big mistake. And I'm gonna care enough about them to help really keep this business together while you're trying to make

Steve-o (01:13:57.24)
Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (01:14:04.055)
you know, the ends meet, I'm gonna keep this, I'm gonna be the glue. And I think human resources people can be the glue, the heartbeat of any organization. And so for me, I think Steve is right on this is, you know, just another way to get people to read an article and they probably didn't go deeper, which is another sad, you know, product of where we're at. That's why again, these social, emotional, you know, relationship skills to take things more serious, like read the whole article.

take it seriously, have some depth and get to know people, understand the stories. So anyway, I'm grateful to get to ha hang out with you guys for a little over an hour and and hear your stories and and and share because I feel like there's so much heart to this show. So thanks for what you guys what you guys are doing out there in the world.

Steve-o (01:14:49.752)
I appreciate that. Especially coming from you because I know that you have a ton of heart. You know, taking some young kid I felt like at the time, you know, speaking with you all those years ago. So yeah. So

Tony Benjamin (01:14:50.072)
Thanks, Eric. Yeah, yeah. That's right.

Tony Benjamin (01:15:00.735)
big deal maker. You're the big deal maker. That's our new nickname for Eric now.

Aric Bostick (01:15:02.401)
Yeah, well. It's trying to spread s spread a little love. Yeah. But no, thank you. Well thanks guys. I appreciate it.

Steve-o (01:15:06.902)
That's right. That's right.

Tony Benjamin (01:15:08.051)
It's no. Okay, really quick, where are you going to be at? So the think think this episode will probably drop two weeks from tomorrow. And and maybe think where you're gonna be at. Anything you wanna promote to us or talk to us about? Yeah.

Steve-o (01:15:19.768)
Yeah, towards the end of June, July, August, yeah.

Aric Bostick (01:15:22.665)
Yeah, I think, you know, from an HR standpoint, I'm really grateful for the timing of this because I am going to be keynoting the Austin HR conference in Austin, Texas. About 400 HR professionals. in between that time though, I'm on the road at several

you know, education conference. I'm d educate doing the a a big one in West Virginia, one in Kentucky, one in Texas, a big foster care youth conference. you know, a for all the people that help with at risk youth and foster care, the Keck Sac conference in Kentucky's all you know, those that work with at risk youth there. A lot of my work is still with educators and and you know, I'm kicking off four school districts con year, but everywhere I'm going, I'm literally teaching the science of attachment and how we

self regulate so that we can build those close relationships. So whether it's corporate or education, the message is very similar that relationships matter. There's a science to it. Get good at this and start with doing your own work. You know, taking good care of you so you can take good care of others.

Steve-o (01:16:22.222)
You know, I love what you say there. And if you're if if Jobs for America's Graduates is listening to this episode, anybody from Jobs for America's graduates, you need to get a hold of Eric and you need to have him at your NCDC next year as your as one of your main keynote speakers. Like I'm just gonna throw that out there. And if not next year, the year after, or whenever you can do that, because they deal with a lot of at risk youth for their organization in the high schools and and middle schools. And I just feel like this kind of messaging would

Tony Benjamin (01:16:22.962)
Awesome.

Tony Benjamin (01:16:38.677)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (01:16:40.097)
That's very kind. Sure.

Steve-o (01:16:50.58)
absolutely resonate with that crowd. So

Aric Bostick (01:16:53.227)
Yeah. And in

Tony Benjamin (01:16:53.289)
And also make sure those young people know this so that they don't see this as something weird when they get old enough to implement it. They've heard it early.

Aric Bostick (01:17:00.353)
Right.

Steve-o (01:17:00.354)
Yeah.

Aric Bostick (01:17:01.545)
Exactly. Well, I'll d I'll finish with this. I just did Utah Valley University, their campus ambassadors, forty students who get full scholarship to be the ones that give the campus tours but also promote the school to the universities. I got to start doing this work with them. I did four individual one hour sessions with all 40 teaching attachment. One actually one of their top ambassadors who wants to be an HR professional and I told them all about stuff I I do and but I it was so neat. Every single one of these kids after

We did it.

And I said anybody wouldn't give me a testimonial, I'd be so grateful because we're gonna make a little you know promo video out of this. Twenty kids wanted to share to the camera learning about my attachment style and how it affects others and how I want to make others feel secure has transformed my whole vision of leadership. So it was really cool to get this hey, young people they want to know how did I get wired this way and how do I get better, just how do I connect. So I mean again, I I feel grateful that I had someone introduce attachment to me, the Bobby Center that supports me, my

Steve-o (01:17:55.374)
Absolutely do. Mm-hmm.

Aric Bostick (01:18:04.186)
I sp you know, the person that there vets on material can provide some therapy for me to continue to grow in my own security. Like this is a a message for this time. We need now more than ever to understand. Let's let's build bonds that last forever. Yeah, thanks guys.

Steve-o (01:18:17.74)
Absolutely.

Tony Benjamin (01:18:17.839)
Awesome, thank you. All right. We want to reach out today and talk about Thrive Life Project. When a child faces a serious illness, the entire family feels the impact. Thrive Life Project steps in to lighten the load, delivering nutritious meals and engaging STEM kits directly to families' homes, completely free of charge. It's more than support, it's a community of care. Learn more at ThriveLifeproject.org. That's ThriveLife.com.

project dot org and thank you to Brock and all he's doing with that charity. It's really cool. Well Eric, thank you for being on the show with us. Wow, I feel like that's right. That's right. I just I just want to say thank you for what you did here. This was really good. I think we really scratched onto this and maybe we'll have you back on sometime. We can talk about some very specific techniques of how you do this.

Steve-o (01:18:56.184)
Yes, thank you. Three exclamation points.

Aric Bostick (01:18:57.964)
Thank you. Hey, thanks. Earned it, baby. Earned it. That's great.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:16.499)
I know that just in our conversation here, I'm like, there's two or three emails that I need to send to touch base with people at a critical point. So I appreciate that. But the thank you and it's wonderful. everybody will have a link on how to get a hold of Eric in the show notes and we'll make sure that we get a couple of books that he referred to up on the page about the books.

Steve-o (01:19:36.824)
Absolutely.

Aric Bostick (01:19:38.007)
You know what I what I can do too is I can send you a link to my our resources page, which will have all the books that I cite and share. And it actually has a even slideshow, but even you have Dr. Goff's link to her attachment quiz so you can learn about your what's your attachment style. so it's got just tons of resources. So I'll send that to you and that you can add in the show notes. That'd be great.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:45.301)
Brilliant.

Tony Benjamin (01:19:58.048)
Yeah, that'll be in the show notes. That's awesome. That's that's wonderful. that was a lot. I gotta say that was that was a lot. So

Steve-o (01:19:58.262)
That'd great. Yeah.

Aric Bostick (01:20:07.826)
I was worried because I'm a talker and I go, I know we're gonna go I know we're gonna go over an hour, you know, ten or whatever. So it but it was great.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:10.475)
Ha ha ha.

Steve-o (01:20:14.198)
But that's okay. I I the value of what we've talked about I think is really critical. And I I can guarantee those listening, they're gonna walk away with this with just a a breath of fresh air as they go into their next meeting or whatever it is they're getting ready to go into. So

Tony Benjamin (01:20:14.355)
That's okay.

Aric Bostick (01:20:26.562)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. I'm glad I'm glad. Exactly. Well e you know what I was thinking? I was gonna say, hey, maybe I could take a little picture of me with you awesome guys and do a little post. That was on the HR podcast with the amazing Tony and amazing Steve. All right, on three, ready? One, two, three. All right.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:27.285)
Yep, yep. And start paying attention, see what you see there. All right, I well I guess we're gonna head out the same way. wait, did you wanna say something, Eric? Yeah.

Steve-o (01:20:30.679)
Mm-hmm.

Steve-o (01:20:39.648)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:45.131)
Yeah.

Here we go.

Aric Bostick (01:20:49.302)
Very good. Let me let me do one more where I can see you guys a little bit better. I'll put this right there on the screen. Yeah. Very good. I'll promote you guys. All right. Thanks guys. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Yeah.

Steve-o (01:20:49.538)
Nice.

Tony Benjamin (01:20:58.389)
Very good. Why that's I like that. That's right, that's right. Anybody else is free to promote us too as long as it's in a friendly way. So all right, I guess this I guess we head out the same way that we came in.

Steve-o (01:21:01.174)
Hey, we appreciate that.

Tony Benjamin (01:21:14.783)
Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review on your favorite podcast app. Comments or questions for us? Email the podcast at the HRlife Podcast at gmail.com and we'll talk again soon.

Tony Benjamin (01:21:38.74)
That's a three exclamation point s episode right there.

Aric Bostick (01:21:42.307)
Yeah.