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Candid conversations for the church. Host is Ardin Beech of Windsor District Baptist Church, Sydney, Australia. Co-hosted by Jonathan Hoffman.
This Week At Windsor, back again for another go at it. Doctor J.
Jonathan:Ardin Beach, good to see you. How are you?
Ardin:Thanks for inviting me once again into your office.
Jonathan:Yes.
Ardin:Sorry. I mean, studio.
Jonathan:Oh, you're lucky I let you behind the desk again after last week.
Ardin:That's right. Terrible effort.
Jonathan:Word has it that there are missing episodes because of a corrupted file.
Ardin:Some things broke.
Jonathan:You sabotaged it, really. Well, I'm just now
Ardin:I'm just worried. If you were a guest on one of those episodes Yeah. And you're just thinking, oh, I I gotta do the whole thing again. Like, in the moment, it's fun. Yeah.
Ardin:Freewheeling. You're chucking jokes out, and then the magic's gone.
Jonathan:It's like going to one of those places where you, like, do a craft while you eat your dinner, and you at the end of the day, you're like, oh, that was fun. But it's like, I'll remake the craft. No. Don't wanna don't wanna remake the craft. Was terrible.
Jonathan:So hopefully we can get them back. Melanie, but we're sorry.
Ardin:Yeah. I will. Hopefully, they come back. Anyway, what's happening at Windsor these days?
Jonathan:So much is happening. So much is happening. Really excited, though. First of all, our made new family course is starting again. We are really excited because one of our key values here is family and how we relate to one another in Christ.
Jonathan:These courses really explore gospel change for us, and the family course is really designed for people who are new to our church, who wanna get a sense of what Bible study is like, who wanna get a sense of what it's like to belong to our community. And so we're really excited because this time when we're running May New Family, not only are we doing a different book of the bible, we're gonna do the book of Esther instead of, the book of Philippians, but we're also doing it midweek, and there will be dinner. So we're providing dinner, and it's midweek, so it's gonna run like 06:30 to eight. Check the website for details in case I got anything wrong. It's gonna run for six weeks, and it's just a great time for people to come and get to know other people here in the church, get to be a part of bible study and hear what's important to us as a church family.
Jonathan:So that's kicking off in May. Really excited about that. We're also excited about mission month. May is mission month here at WDBC. And so, hopefully, you were here last Sunday and you got to see one of our missionaries.
Jonathan:We can't talk much about her because of where she's serving, but, it was a great opportunity to have her, here and really looking forward to the fruit that God's gonna bring through her ministry. But, really encourage all our members and churchgoers to to check out, yeah, the missionaries that we support here and, really be engaged during this month of May. If you get a chance, find time to write a letter or an email, something to to correspond with them. Please be praying for them. And if the Lord prompts you to, yeah, to be extra generous to them, I encourage you to follow that as well.
Jonathan:And the last thing is it's finance meeting time. Everyone's favorite time of year. You're smiling at me. You just love it. I love it.
Ardin:Love just live for the church meetings.
Jonathan:Live for it.
Ardin:Doesn't it say I have come so that you may have meetings and have them in abundance? Something like that.
Jonathan:Something like that. That's in the Baptist creed. The Baptist confession. No. I I reckon we get you to, like, share the meetings.
Jonathan:No. I think it'd be great. I'll people would attendance would go up.
Ardin:You want someone smarter, reliable, respectable.
Jonathan:Really?
Ardin:Yeah. Okay. The other thing that's happening too, the home groups are getting a bit of a rejig.
Jonathan:Yes. Yes. So we're gathering our small group leaders, both existing leaders as well as new leaders, potential leaders. This year, one of our goals is to really make our small groups a place of discipleship and growth. And so, yeah, pastor Chris and I and the elders have been doing a lot of praying and reflecting on how we might be able to do that.
Jonathan:And we've come up with some, yeah, I think just some small steps, but I think it's really gonna help us really hone in as a church, yeah, into that. We're gonna be introducing kind of sermon based questions that that group leaders can use. We're gonna encourage them to use. We're also gonna try to incorporate more of a leader and, yeah, a kind of a development model sort of that prepares groups to grow. Like, how do we set expectations for a group to grow?
Jonathan:Because if we're in an environment where, you know, God's people are learning from his word and they're being open and vulnerable with each other, they're loving one another, I mean, that's like the recipe for growth. So how do we how do we get our church, our existing small groups to to prepare themselves for what that can look like? Because it can be a scary thing when your group grows or when a new person comes to the church and know, how do we how do we navigate this dynamic when we're used to just been with each other and only each other for a bit of time. So some of these are the some of the things that we're gonna be talking about.
Ardin:Our home group communicates via a Facebook
Jonathan:Okay.
Ardin:Chat group called the Gronks. And when Chris was doing updating the directory, North Richmond Home Group was already taken in the church directory so I think we are actually the Gronks in the church home group directory.
Jonathan:What is a Gronk?
Ardin:A Gronk it's an Australian term I think just for like an idiot So that will probably dissuade new new membership in our group, I would imagine.
Jonathan:I don't know, man. Up is down. Who knows? Gronks are smart.
Ardin:Yes. People can come. Yeah. Alright. Enough of the local stuff.
Ardin:Let's get to our special guest.
Jonathan:Yes. We are thrilled to have on the podcast This Week At Windsor, a good friend of mine. Her name is Katharine Montoya. Katharine, welcome.
Katharine:Thank you for having me.
Jonathan:Great to have you. Now you and I got to know each other through the context of the church health team and the Baptist Association. Before we get into that though, tell us a bit about where you're from, where do you live.
Katharine:Yeah. So I grew up in sort of the Inner Western Suburbs of Sydney and moved to the St. George area when I got married. And now for the last three and a half years, I live in the Sutherland Shire with my husband. We have three adult children.
Katharine:I was about to say I live with my husband and three adult children, but one, my middle son just got married at the start of the year, so it's now two adult children and a dog.
Jonathan:The nest is starting to empty. How are you feeling about that?
Katharine:I think we kinda grieved it when maybe about twelve months ago, my son came and said, okay. Like, this is serious. We're we're going to get married. But, you know, it was sort of the it was the start of things. So they they decide to do the prep for marriage course, but they they didn't get engaged till later in the year.
Jonathan:So
Katharine:I think we went through that grieving process then. Now it's just I'm a pretty resilient person. I just kinda go with the flow. So it's just like, okay. This is the new normal, so just go with it.
Jonathan:I ask because Arden's getting ready for this. Right, Arden?
Ardin:And we just kicked a couple of hours out. Yeah.
Katharine:Okay.
Ardin:So we're selling our home,
Katharine:and we
Ardin:we figured it was easier just boot the Yeah. Boot the teenagers out rather than actually expect them to clean up after themselves. Yeah. Yeah. So temporarily, they're moving out.
Ardin:Yeah, the eldest is getting married next year.
Katharine:So Yeah.
Ardin:So mom's heart, I think, is starting to struggle with the Yeah. Dentist thing. It's bit quiet.
Katharine:It is. But we we've sort of found this new, like, oh, now that he's not home, we can have all these foods for dinner that he didn't like. So it's my daughter's been so excited to have pumpkin soup and quiche.
Jonathan:Oh, wow. There you go. Tell us a bit about your church your church backgrounds. Obviously, we met through the associate Baptist Association. Have you always been a Baptist?
Katharine:So when I was born, my parents were going to a Baptist church. And so in my earlier years, I grew up in a Baptist church. Then when I was in about year six, my parents split up. And so my my dad kept going to a Baptist church, so I would go with him to Baptist church at night. And then my mom went to Pentecostal churches, so we went with her in the morning.
Katharine:Yeah. So for a while, we were sort of doing two churches of the weekend. And then probably when I was maybe in about year 12, I decided to just go to and it was in Assemblies of God Church. We were going with my mom, so decided to to just kind of ground ourselves there, like my my siblings. Yeah.
Katharine:So went there, yeah, probably about three three years into there. Met my now husband.
Jonathan:Okay. So quite so you've been teenagers or no? We started bathroom?
Katharine:No. No. No. We started going out when I was, like, 18.
Jonathan:Okay.
Katharine:Yeah. I got married at 20. Yeah. Yeah. I was very young.
Jonathan:Classic church romance. Yeah. So in that journey, when did you feel like your faith became personal
Ardin:to you?
Jonathan:Or maybe it was always personal. I don't know. But when was when did Jesus become real for you?
Katharine:So when I was about 15, yeah, I I was going to these holiday camps run run by WECC, the Worldwide Evangelization for Christ. And I I can't remember the circumstances around it, but there was just that one point that I remember at one of those camps, I went, no. I need to I need to make the decision. We often had lots of opportunities to say the sinner's prayer as a young person and teenager in Sunday school and whatever youth programs, whatever, too. But I sort of got to this point where I was like, no.
Katharine:I need to actually make a change, make a decision to follow Jesus. And so yeah. So I I remember that that sort of point in life.
Jonathan:You're a teenager. What began to change, like, when you made that decision? We'd love to hear kind of what what what's the shift that takes place as you think about it over time.
Katharine:Yeah. Again, it was a really long time ago, but I I do remember having to make a conscious decision of being different. And I think, you know, as a teenager, whilst my friends around me knew I was a Christian, you know, there was a lot of aspects of me that, you know, you're just trying to fit in and be like your friend group. So I do remember half making that conscious decision to to stop swearing. And I know that not that it sounds silly.
Katharine:I know that it's like, that wasn't the entirety of it, but that's sort of my memory of what I wanted to change.
Jonathan:That was the start. Yeah.
Katharine:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sure there were other things. I remember doing daily devotions, having they used to be printed back in the day.
Katharine:So, yeah, so I I don't know whether that was something new that I kind of took on around that time, but I do remember being part of my life at the time. But stopping swearing was sort of a key thing.
Jonathan:And now you're you do a lot of work in schools at the moment. Is that is that right?
Katharine:Yeah. Two days a week.
Jonathan:Two days a week. Okay. In your from your perspective, when you see kind of young people today, what what do you see some of the challenges that they that they're facing?
Katharine:Social media is the the massive one. I think just think the culture has changed a lot too. So I I was working in a high school, and and I'm also working in a primary school. And the respect for adults, the respect for for teachers and staff is is so different. And, you know, and you've got, you know, you've got good kids and bad kids, and there would have been good kids and bad kids when I grew up.
Katharine:And I was the good kid. I kinda never wanted to get in trouble. So for me, it sort of feels so foreign when you just see these kids just swearing at the principal.
Jonathan:But ardent's proof that they come good. Right? Wow. So you and I, we met through the church health team. For people who aren't really sure, like, what what the church health team is, how would you explain to kind of your everyday church goer what the church health team is meant to do for the Baptist Association?
Katharine:So it'd be a team of people that are called upon by a church who would reach out to the association wanting some assistance with something going on in their church. It could be something negative. There could be some it could be a church split or some conflict in the church, or it could be, you know, the church is maybe at a crossroads with something. So they might need, like, a restructure, or they might be seeking a new senior pastor and needing some assistance with those processes, or they could just be, you know, looking at sort of a revisioning. They might in the the life cycle of the church, they might be at the point where they need to make a change in order to keep growing and not sort of move into the decline.
Ardin:Is that your professional background then?
Katharine:No. No? No. Not at all.
Ardin:So what what what did you do work wise before?
Katharine:So I when I finished school, I did a bachelor of sports science at uni.
Ardin:So relevant.
Katharine:Yeah. Totally relevant. And I think partway through that, I realized that actually admin was kind of a gifting of mine. And I was like, oh, I should have done sports admin. But I was, like, really well into the degree, and I was going out with my soon to be husband.
Katharine:So it was like, I didn't wanna keep studying. I just wanted to finish uni so I could get married. So I I kind of just did some different work here and there, worked for my dad for a while. Then I got into I got into a job into in sports admin. So working for the Football Federation Australia, but in a more admin.
Katharine:It wasn't really sports admin. But I did that. Then I started having children. So then I was still doing a bit of bookkeeping for my dad, bookkeeping for my husband's business. Then I a a role came up at our church.
Katharine:So I go to Georges River Life Church at Peecurst in the southern in the St. George area of Sydney. We also have a a site out at Chipping Norton, Liverpool. Yeah. So a role came up to coordinate the playgroups.
Katharine:It was just such a growth, and we were running playgroups three mornings a week. And so they were wanting to pay for someone to coordinate that. And so that's kind of how I started working at at Georges River, and then things just evolved from there.
Jonathan:Because you how long were you at Georges River on staff there?
Katharine:I started in 2011 as the playgroup coordinator, and then I finished in February 2025 last year.
Jonathan:So that that role, as I understand, that grew. Right? Where did you where did you finish off? Because I remember this was such a unique role.
Katharine:Yeah. So I finished as operations manager for about the last six years that I was there.
Jonathan:What was that like? Because operations manager, you think, is a very, you know, it's a very organized role, but churches are not often very organized. Pastors are not often very organized. Yeah. How did you find that dynamic of someone who's gifted in administration, but being put in a in a ministry environment that can be casual, a bit chaotic?
Jonathan:Like, did did those things integrate well? How how did you find your way in
Katharine:that space? So, I mean, because the role kind of really evolved over the years, I was growing as a person. I was growing as a disciple. I was growing as a worker and in leadership. So I was kind of growing with the team a little bit.
Katharine:But, yeah, like, there was a lot of frustration along the way because I am so different. I'm wired so differently to a pastoral mind or you know? And even within pastors, you've got, you know, a very a broad way range of skills and personalities. And, yeah, I mean, like, it was it was great. I loved it.
Katharine:I was so passionate about it. But, yeah, of course, there's there's frustrations when you can see benefit of a change, and it's really hard to take people on the journey, which is exactly what you experience as a pastor when you're wanting to have that change management in some kind of spiritual discipline or or something. So
Ardin:because I think we could we just assume and expect that our pastors can do all this stuff. You get a new pastor at your little church out in the Central West or whatever, and you just assume they can do everything.
Katharine:It's a tough gig, I think, the solo pastors.
Jonathan:So talk to us. I'll step in and put on my hat as a pastor for all the other pastors out there. What are you think that maybe, like, one, two, or three things that you think if you know, from an administrative perspective, if you just, like, if you just fix this one little thing or, like, if you could just do this and do this, like, it would just make things go so much smoother. Is there did you leave with, like, a few little little tweaks, little not not throwing anybody under the bus, but, like, just, like, you know, if it's pastors, you could just get your head around this thing. Really You'd be a lot better off.
Katharine:And it's one area that I think our staff team really grew in was understanding the benefit of good processes and following good processes. So it's one thing to have the processes there and in place, and it's another thing to actually follow them. And I I know that our staff really got to understand the value of processes and following them and having systems and processes in place to kinda deal with things. So they really grew in that, and I think that that was really helpful.
Ardin:Moving into the church health space then, I don't imagine I mean, sometimes the these issues would come from admin stuff and procedures and that kind of thing. But more often than not, would they not be big emotional issues, relationship issues, or that kind of side?
Katharine:Yeah. I don't think the church health team actually sort of has delved into that administration space yet. And I'll admit, look, I I when I was I was nominated to go onto the church health team, and I was a bit like, oh, really me? I I still do feel out of place, out of depth a lot of the times that I'm that I'm there. I was part of a really great team, which was mostly pastoral staff.
Katharine:And particularly in the early years, it was it was a much smaller team. And we had lots of it was just it was just pastors and then me. And so so for a long time, I felt really out of place, so unworthy of being there, questioning, like, like, if they really knew who I was, like, they they wouldn't like, I've I've they wouldn't let me be here in that like, on that staff team. And so it took a really long time for me to understand that God made me the way I am uniquely on purpose for his purpose. And and that was sort of a word that he gave me.
Katharine:And and I still have to go back to that and remind myself of that all the time because, you know, as I said, even on the church health team things, I I feel very out of place because it's all pastors. And I'm not a pastor. I'm very different. And so I think understanding that God has a purpose for each of us, and we're we're all we're not clones for a reason. We're all uniquely made for a reason.
Katharine:And it's just about really seeking God to find what his purpose for you is. And
Jonathan:That's a great word. I'm so glad you shared that with us because I think there's a lot of people need to hear that. They tend to it's really human nature, isn't it? We look around and we we look for somebody, you know, like us to do what we do, or we feel like we need to accommodate to do what they do to be accepted and valued. And, you know, I love that phrase, you know, you know, he made me on purpose for his purpose.
Jonathan:That's a great that's a great reminder for us also. Thank you.
Katharine:We we just compare ourselves to others, I think. And when when you don't kinda fit that mold, you can feel down on yourself and and lack that that self confidence or or just confidence that God's gonna use you in something.
Ardin:Everyone else would probably feel in that way anyway.
Katharine:Yeah. But I felt so encouraged by this person nominating me that they believed in me. They believed that I had the ability to do this. And so, you know, so I'm still there, but I feel like my place there is to kind of offshoot into a into another direction. And, you know, and whether that's through that health team or or in in another avenue, we'll see.
Katharine:But thing things are happening. So
Jonathan:But we're not allowed to know them? Is that what you're saying?
Katharine:Oh, no. Like, yeah.
Jonathan:No. So can know.
Katharine:Okay. Yeah. You can know. Sorry.
Jonathan:That was a no. No. No. You can know. I was like, alright.
Jonathan:Oh, but explain. Yeah. We'd love to hear.
Katharine:Yeah. So I finished up in my role as operations manager last year. And in that time after I I finished up, I I did wanna have a good time of rest. I was finishing some studies, but I was really wanting to just really seek God as to, you know, like, what's next for me? What's next for me ministry wise?
Katharine:What's next for me vocation wise? And is it all the same or is it different? In my time in my role, I really felt called to that. And so when I was leaving, I knew that it was time to leave. I still felt called to that operational space within churches.
Katharine:And so I sort of have spent the last know, it it's still it's still evolving, but I've spent that last kinda twelve months really seeking God on, you know, what does this look like for me to help the broader church in this space? And I've been speaking to a friend who works in church health to try and work out how this could sort of work. And tomorrow, I'm actually starting a contract role
Jonathan:Wow.
Katharine:At a church in the Southern Southern Suburbs of Sydney to go in two days a week for three months just reviewing their policies, systems, processes, listening to how they work, and giving them some recommendations of how we could make their processes more efficient, are there any gaps in their policies and procedures, and and and sort of implement that with them to try and help them?
Jonathan:Yeah. I can vouch for the fact that when they when they train us in seminary, they give us, like, zero courses on administration. Like like, nothing. Sorry. I take it back.
Jonathan:I had to do, a quarter of a unit, so, like, a point two five unit on finances for pastors. And it was basically how to file your own taxes. And that was, like, that was the extent of it. And that was in The US, I can't even use it here. So I'm I'm excited for that.
Jonathan:I mean, I've got the chance to you know, when you and I have worked together through the Church Health team, it's been good to see those administrative gifts and that clear thinking for processes come out. And so, yeah, I'm excited that you're in that space. I wonder if you could tell us a bit about what you guys did when the royal commission came out on exposed a lot of the the really terrible abuse that happened with perpetuated in churches. And all these standards came across for us now and how to maintain a safe church and so on and so forth. You guys did something interesting at George's River.
Jonathan:What was your what was your guys' approach? Because I remember it was kind of on the a bit on the forefront of sort of the direction I think we're heading.
Katharine:Yeah. So that all kinda happened around COVID. Like, I I remember being in lockdown in my house trying to work out and feeling very overwhelmed with with getting this sort of happening. And my husband is in IT, so he's very, very tech savvy, very experienced in all things IT, and he as well loves to learn, loves to find efficiencies in processes. And so I was kind of bouncing this stuff off him, and his head's just ticking over about how he could do this and do this and do this.
Katharine:And so we worked together. The first version was kind of just digitizing everything. We used online forms and used, like, a SharePoint list, which would then basically, there was there was still some manual input for things, but but it was all digitized. And that seemed to be I mean, it worked it worked really well for us. But because we have a large church, we had sort of over 200 volunteers.
Katharine:There was still a lot of manual input, and it was still a lot of bottleneck and slowing things down. So in 2024, my husband took a career break for a year, and he spent majority of that time putting together a newer system for our church, which just automated everything. So you would just you would click a button and say, this person is starting this role, and then you would hit the submit button, and then they would get sent an email with links to all the forms they had to do. And once they were done, it would automatically update the system. And so he he worked on that, and it's a work in progress.
Katharine:So he's still working on that. That kind of really worked for us.
Jonathan:Yeah. I know the there's a real backlog of churches trying to get up to date. I mean, we just got our I'm sure you're right across this, Arden, but we just got our
Ardin:Oh, yeah.
Jonathan:Our green tick. I don't if it's a green tick. The big tick, which is now on our website. Thank you, Janelle. Now on our website that shows that we are now a safe church.
Jonathan:I mean, safe before, hopefully. But credited or whatever. We now comply. It's kind of the just stuff like that. I I I think it's really exciting when people recognize the gaps in in the church.
Jonathan:And it shows the deficiency of what you were saying, Arden, of, well, the pastor should know everything. Oh, it's church related. I guess the pastor does you know, knows it all. No. We don't.
Jonathan:There's so many gaps. That's where it's great to see the body of Christ kind of pulling us all along together as people contribute what they know. As part of the church health team, we're working with churches to try to kinda get unstuck or take the next step. It's sort of a bridging. It's really a bridging type of ministry.
Jonathan:And a key part of that is discernment. And I've appreciated some of the some of the ways you've encouraged churches that we've worked with in discernment. But I wonder for you personally, what would you say to somebody who feels like they're either in a season that's they're about to enter a new season or they just feel stuck and they're kind of wondering sort of what's next? How would you encourage them to discern God's will? What's a process of discernment?
Jonathan:Some practices, tips, things that you've found personally helpful to to really understand what's next for you or when when it's time to move into this next thing or when it's time to continue on, you know, whatever that may be.
Katharine:I feel like there's so in this season that I'm in now where it's like, what's next? I feel like there's there's so many options. When I was going through the the discernment process around finishing up in my role, that was about a nine month process. So as a staff team, we were doing a lot of silence and solitude practice. And so I was in one of my mornings when I was practicing silence and solitude.
Katharine:I was always asking God, just speak to me. Speak to me for this season. And I had this word. He spoke to me very clearly. It was, I'm with you wherever you go.
Katharine:And I was like, wow. Like, that's that's really cool. But it's like, okay. But you need to speak into that a bit more. I'm not just gonna make a decision based on that.
Katharine:So I was like, okay. You know, just just leave that at your feet. And then I opened up my bible to just after I finished my time of silence and solitude, I was just getting on with my bible reading and opened it up to the passage, which was, you know, just following on from where I'd left it the day before, and it was Genesis 28. And it was Jacob was he just escaped Esau and had a dream. And God said to him, I am with wherever you go.
Katharine:And it was like, what? That that is, like, word for word. It was No.
Jonathan:God, I'm leaving it with you. I'm I'm leaving that with you. Why are you leaving it with me? Go ahead. Sorry.
Katharine:Yeah. So, yeah, I did feel a little bit like that. It's like, wait. What? Like, you're giving me a choice?
Katharine:Like
Ardin:Yeah. That's great.
Katharine:You're where are we going? Tell me. Yeah. So that was like, wow. Like, that you can't make those things up.
Katharine:So I really felt like God was giving me a decision, and it was like, well, if you if you stay in this role, I'm with you. If you decide to finish up, I'm with you. And so I decided to to finish up. And and so I spoke to someone. So it's important to to speak to someone that you trust in a discernment process and just, yeah, get some wise counsel, but also just sitting in your decision for a while and just continually praying in it and just asking for for peace or agitation in it.
Katharine:And so as I've continued, like, you know, over the last year, I like to kinda know things. I can be a little bit of a control freak. I think anyone who's really passionate about admin has those tendencies. But I've had to really just kinda let go of all of that in this time and just say, god, I know you've got this. Like, it's all in your hands, and I'm just totally trusting you in this.
Katharine:So I've I've just been praying and just asking God to open the right doors and close the wrong ones. Just spending time quietly asking him to show me things. So sometimes he might remind me of pictures or words that he's given me before. Again, yeah, I'm just speaking to to wise people who want the best for you, who aren't just gonna give you the answer that you wanna hear or what they think you wanna hear.
Jonathan:Thank you so much, Katharine. Thanks for taking the time, making the big trip, fighting traffic, getting here to share with us. Was it too painful?
Katharine:No. No. It was fine.
Ardin:Looking around the office, anything Jonathan needs to sort out? Any pain points you see? Anything that gives you just the eye twitch?
Katharine:No. I I really like the vibe in this office.
Ardin:Well, thanks for joining us. Great to have you here.
Katharine:Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Ardin:And I don't know. Maybe she'll come back.
Jonathan:I know. We gotta hear how this sort of pilot program, this trial thing is. So it's the three month gig?
Katharine:Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we'll have to phone in an update or something. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan:Yeah. That would be awesome. Yeah.
Ardin:Cool. Alright. Well, thanks for coming. We'll have you back soon. How was that, doctor Jay?
Jonathan:So good. I remember when we got to work together on this project, and I was like, wow. Katharine is very different than me, but this is actually really good because all the things that I don't do well, she's doing very well. So it's great to hear from her perspective. And, what's some what a great encouragement about discernment and just accepting who you are.
Ardin:Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. Thanks for listening. We'll be back soon.