Ep. 105: Officer Down

10-33 is the radio code for “Officer in need of Immediate Assistance”.  It is also the aptly named title of the "Ten Thirty Three" podcast hosted by retired police officer Nathan Kapler.  Nathan is incredibly honest in sharing his struggles with mental health, addiction and dealing with the trauma he has sustained through life and through his career with the RCMP.  His hope is that others may benefit from his perspective and experience and he uses the power of story to continue his lifelong dedication to assisting those in need. 

  June is mens mental health awareness month and this episode was created specifically to provide nuance and shed light on a topic that is stilly highly stigmatized.     If you, or someone you know is suffering from negative mental health speak up, reach out, contact a mental health professional or, in an emergency, contact emergency services.      Ten Thirty Three Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/ten-thirty-three/id1604674610 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tenthirtythreeco/ 

 

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For further resources on mental health, motivation and self improvement, check out: https://the-collective.ca/  https://mentell.ca/ 

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Merchandise - https://bit.ly/3ecyvk9
Blog Page - https://bit.ly/3nEHs8W

Host Instagram - @Bader.Trav https://www.instagram.com/bader.trav
Silvercore Instagram - @SilvercoreOutdoors https://www.instagram.com/silvercoreoutdoors

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

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Alright.

I already know that we're gonna be
in for amazing podcasts on this one.

The difficulty with doing these podcasts
is sometimes our excitement gets ahead

of us and we will start talking ahead
of time, and usually the typical thing

I usually say is if I could only press
record the second a person comes in

the studio and keep it recording.

After we finish a podcast,
we're gonna get the most raw,

the most honest conversation.

This is one podcast that I don't think
that's gonna be the case in policing.

People have heard the terms.

10, 4, 10 codes used on the radio.

Ten four.

Affirmative.

10.

10 negative.

10 20.

What's your location?

My favorite, 10 99.

Let's have a coffee break.

On coffee break.

There's 10 33.

10 33 officers in need of immediate
assistance Today I'm joined by the

host of the hugely inspirational
and positive 10 33 podcast.

Welcome to the Silvercore
podcast, Nathan Kapler

Nathan Kapler: wow.

Um, thank you Travis.

Uh, an absolute honor to be here.

Travis Bader: This is gonna
be an interesting one.

So we're in June.

June is Men's Mental Health Month.

The 10 33 Podcast deals a lot with
mental health, primarily with mental

health and ways to make people better.

You come from a first responder
background, you bring that

experience and what you've learned.

You've had some difficulties and you are
brutally honest in how you share that

in your podcast, which I find inspiring.

Can you tell me about the 10 33
podcast, how it came about and why?

Nathan Kapler: Oh, great question.

Uh, years ago, obviously, when I
went to training for the R C M P,

They did a fantastic job of training
us on how to deal with incredibly,

uh, horrific scenes, um, situations
that just were completely surreal.

Uh, they were ever evolving.

How do we manage threats?

How do we manage people?

How do we manage these dynamic situations?

And at the same time, they created this
culture that it was very much okay,

and it should be recognized that when
you get into these, these situations,

you need to also know a 10 code, 10 33.

Hmm.

You need to, at times be able to
ask for help because you might get

involved in a shooting, you might
get involved in a situation where

you know you're gonna lose your life.

Hmm.

And you need backup
and you might be alone.

And the, the RCMP is notorious for this.

A lot of their members work alone.

Right.

So they do a great job of training
you for these dynamic situations

and preparing you for the field, and
also making sure that you are okay

to ask for help in the line of duty.

Mm-hmm.

But what happened to me was when I got
home, that's when I fell apart mm-hmm.

From all of this trauma.

And I didn't know how to ask
for help outside of duty.

So when I, later on down this road, this
journey that I've been on of learning

how to, you know, better myself and
improve my mental health and improve my

overall health, I knew I had to launch
this project and call it ten thirty

three mm to make sure that we can all
ask for help outside of work as well.

Because there's immense amounts of shame
and guilt, uh, in, in the society of men,

but also as police officers
and first responders.

We don't, we don't know how to ask
for help when we start to go down with

this stuff, this mental health stuff.

And it's so common.

Travis Bader: It's like a badge of honor.

I'm tough.

This doesn't bother me, right?

I don't want to be the weak one on
the team that's crying out saying

I was affected negatively by the
situation or what I might be.

If it's a physical injury, not a problem.

It's self-evident, right?

Oh, you broke your arm,
not a get a cast on it.

Month later you're gonna be good and
might be a little tender for a bit.

Right?

The mental health thing.

Not so self-evident.

Nathan Kapler: No, not at all.

Travis Bader: Not at all.

What were some of the warning signs?

Like we, we, I'm sure we're gonna
talk about where things went cuz you

were very open about mental health
and addiction and recovery process

and, and how you worked through this.

What were the warning signs that maybe
weren't self-evident to yourself that you

might be able to see in somebody else or
somebody might be able to see in themself?

Nathan Kapler: That's
a really good question.

I think, I think at the beginning
stage of my journey, I started to have

awareness into some aspects of what
was happening to me when those changes

initially happened, because I could
see myself still as a very healthy

individual when I first got into policing.

So the change of taking myself from
that very healthy level to now kind

of starting to see certain things
happen where I didn't like it and I

was starting to acknowledge, okay, uh,
I stopped dreaming very early on in

my journey of being a police officer.

So the mind just stopped having these
dreams, and I remember kind of having

this feeling of about a year in and
going, why am I not dreaming anymore?

Really it was, and it felt
like a very kind of, the body

just felt very empty and void.

And I remember thinking to myself,
okay, so I'm not having good dreams.

I'm not having bad dreams.

I'm just having no dreams at all.

And that was kind of the first significant
step, I would say, to me kind of

going, you know, cur with curiosity
and saying, okay, what's going on here?

So I actually reached out to a
psychologist then back in about 2008

in Whistler, and we started to kind
of explore, you know, what's going on.

Uh, but again, I was still a
very young man and I couldn't

piece a lot of this together.

Back then, we still weren't e
we weren't even really talking

about mental health openly either.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And there still really wasn't a focus
or an awareness to, you know, what

does men's mental health look like?

Or what does P T S D look like?

I had no idea what PTSD t s looked like.

So if I even had it at that time,
I wouldn't be able to, to say, Hey,

this is what I'm going through.

I didn't have the awareness
or the education to talk

about the symptoms either.

We barely had in, had internet back then.

I was still using a flip phone.

Right.

Like I was still like, you know, T
nine M texting was still a thing.

Right?

Right.

You didn't have access to
the things you, you have now.

So I think at the time I was very
aware that those small changes that

were happening were happening and they
caused me to have concern and curiosity.

But as time went on with the symptoms
and as they grew, I actually stopped

having the ability to be able to
pay attention to, okay, where am I?

And it was this very slippery slope
of now my mental health is eroding

and I'm no longer really able to check
in with myself to see where I'm at.

Mm.

If that makes sense.

Mm-hmm.

So, and that's kind of the
danger of mental health, right?

Like, when you're healthy, you can
pick up on, okay, I'm not doing well

here, here, here, you can make the
little adjustments, but if you don't

really, you know, attack the root of the
issue, over time the body just starts

to learn to adapt to this new state.

Travis Bader: Well, how do you
find the root of that issue?

And how do you know that there
is something actually going?

Do you have to hit rock bottom?

Like what's, at some point
you'd start realizing that

things aren't clicking, right?

Maybe memory recall isn't the
right, or maybe you're responding

in ways that are just inappropriate.

Nathan Kapler: I think for me, like
my, my journey at that time was I

was, uh, I was, I left my family, uh,
I left my support structure, right?

So I left those people that were
closely attached to who I was, my

identity, uh, and I left Alberta and
I came out to BC and I was basically

alone with a whole new bunch of people.

So it becomes very easy to kind
of hide yourself now in this new

environment and create a new version
of yourself, where now you're starting

to go through some pain and suffering.

From the job, but you're able to
also mask it because these people

really don't know who you are either.

Mm-hmm.

So I didn't have the right support
structure in place so that they could

give me that feedback, that real time
feedback of Nate, hey, you know, you

seem a little bit more ha hypervigilant,
you've been working too much.

Are you avoiding something?

Are you taking your time off?

You know, how are you sleeping?

You know, what's going
on emotionally for you?

I didn't have those kind of deep-rooted
people in my life that were heavily

rooted in me and my success.

So I think the answer to that is we've
gotta get better at, you know, if we're

gonna do this mental health thing, we
definitely have to have an emphasis

on community and connection, uh, and
conversation around, uh, other people.

And they actually, the success to your
mental health actually exists in having

those connections with others, right?

Because we, what did we all go through?

In in Covid, right.

Social isolation.

We all got a chance to pull back and hide.

It's amazing

Travis Bader: how much that last
couple years of social isolation

has affected society and some people
don't even realize to what extent.

No, I'm sure you've
probably heard of that.

I think it was Harvard, Harvard study.

The longest running study on uh,
I think it was the premise was

happiness in a person's life.

Have you heard this one?

Go on.

So I think it was out
of Harvard, 80 years.

They go and they follow groups from
different backgrounds and different

regions and they say, what's the
number one predictor of happiness

in their life over the long term and
overwhelmingly strong social connections.

And that was it.

Strong social connections, having a good
friend network, having a good family

network, having this set up in a way
that it's, uh, you can have those checks

and balances and you have that level
of stability and that's gotta be rough.

If you've left your friends and your
family and you go into a brand new

place and you don't have anybody to
give you those, you've now got a new

social network you're, you're creating,
but you're probably not showing them

the true you, the five year old,
you the one that they grew up with.

Right.

Nathan Kapler: Our identity
is deeply rooted in others.

And there was a point in my
journey where I saw kind of how.

A specific event that happened
to me when I was in Mounty, how,

uh, I did fear for my life and I
was swarmed as a police officer.

And I, I actually thought
I was gonna die that night.

And I thought my partner
might lose her life as well.

Hmm.

And I remember developing this complete
distrust for people and that drove me

to a place of social isolation before we
entered Covid and also embraced social

isolation to try and tame this pandemic.

So even before that happened, like
you, you joke with cops and it's

kind of a running joke, but you know,
before we, before we went into Covid,

we were all like, Hey, perfect.

We've been doing this social
isolation thing for years.

We got this down pat.

We will, we will gladly not see anyone.

Mm.

Because we go through these unique
experiences with people where we, we, we

don't have that trust anymore with people.

Mm-hmm.

And we do start to tend
to socially isolate.

And that's a very dangerous thing.

Very, very dangerous thing.

And I learned that firsthand.

So the thing that has actually helped me
the most bring me back to, uh, a better

place of mental health and more success
and just happiness again, and, and

creating kind of a, a better world for
myself has been because I've been open

to connecting back with people, sharing
my story, being vulnerable and authentic,

and rooting my identity in others.

And that's how you do this.

Can you tell me about that
swarming what happened?

Yeah, for sure.

We were working a night shift, uh,
in Whistler, and I remember walking

through the village that night,
and it was just a night where you

could just feel it in the crowd.

Something was off, like it just had
this omnis feeling and everybody

seemed to be especially messed up
on drugs and alcohol that night.

Mm-hmm.

And we ended up getting a call that
I believe a few people were running

around the village with a two by
four with nails in it hitting people.

Mm-hmm.

So basically now you have
a, a stabbing in progress.

So a bunch of us rush out and we
eventually get to a place where

there's a group of about maybe 50
people that are all stacked up.

They're in tight.

We can't tell what's going on.

We can't tell if there's
a fight inside that group.

We can't tell if someone's down, are they
giving, you know, uh, services to that

person to help them with their health.

We had no idea what was going on and.

When I talked to my, the person I, I was
there with this other police officer.

Um, we kind of have different
versions of how this transpired.

So I try to be careful about
how I share the story, right?

Mm-hmm.

My perception was that, um, this
officer got a bit too close to the

crowd and the crowd pulled her in.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember just
thinking, oh no, this is bad.

And I knew if I didn't get in
there right away, that there was

gonna be a massive issue to her.

And I actually did.

I feared for her safety for her life.

Mm-hmm.

So I knew I had no choice but to
go into that crowd to pull her out.

Mm.

And as I start to weave in through
people and I'm, I'm not even, you know,

declaring anymore, Hey, it's the police.

I'm just shoving people out of the way.

Mm.

Cuz they're not even responding
to, Hey, it's the police backup.

They're just so gone from, you
know, substances and, and whatever.

As I get close to the center,
my, my recollection of the event

was that I saw my partner on the
ground getting kicked and stomped.

And it was the saddest thing
I've ever seen in my life.

Because you care for your,
your brothers and your sisters.

Absolutely.

And to see something happening
to them, my heart broke in that

moment and I was so scared.

Mm, so scared.

For myself, yes, but also for her.

And I knew that there was, there
was no time to have a motion

that I had to take action.

So I did just that.

I picked her up.

And at the time too, I re, I do remember
she, she had her hands over her head

and she was trying to protect her head
as kicks were coming in and they were

basically curb stomping her to a degree
or trying to, and picking her up.

I just shouted, put your back to mine.

I'm gonna get you outta here.

I had no idea how, but I was
gonna get her outta there.

So we talk a lot about, on my
podcast, we talk about fight or

flight and the significance of it.

Uh, and I hit, I would say probably
my most significant adrenaline

dump I've ever had in my life.

Hmm.

Where the body just goes, okay,
now, now we're very worried.

We're very scared and we've gotta switch
this on, and we've gotta jump as much

dump as much adrenaline into the body
as possible to get you ready to respond.

So as I'm, as I'm having this bodily
reaction of, you know, going through

this trauma in the body's dumping
the adrenaline into the muscles and

it's getting everything fired up and
you can feel it like it's electric.

Hmm.

Right.

It's, it's like the body just
gets supercharged in that moment.

And I'm thinking to myself,
do I pull my gun out?

Do I pull my OC spray out?

Do I pull my baton out?

What am I pulling out here to
get me outta here and to get my

partner outta here and also make
sure I'm not injuring someone else?

My goal is to not kill someone.

Hmm.

So when I'm standing there thinking
about, okay, first use of option here

that I'm thinking about is my gun, because
I just saw my partner who's possibly

losing her life, punches are now coming
in on me as she's got her back to me.

I'm fearing for my life.

I don't know if I'm going home anymore.

Mm-hmm.

I've got a, I've got a girlfriend at home.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know if I'm gonna be able
to crawl into bed with her at the

end of this shift that's heavy.

Mm-hmm.

To get into that place in life
as I'm going through this moment.

Do I pull my gun out, I rule it out.

There's not enough space.

Punches are coming in.

I need my hands to defend myself.

My hands almost like the matrix, right.

I'm doing the neo thing where I'm
kind of blocking and moving and

everything slowed right down Trav.

Yeah.

Like, it was amazing.

It was almost like time had stopped and
I had this ability to, to see punches

coming in and to see things on a, a
microscopic kind of level that you don't

get to ha have that experience when you're
not in that extreme fight or flight.

The body has a really cool way of
really making sure it's flipping

the odds in your favor to respond
to these incidents so you survive.

Mm-hmm.

And this is exactly
what my body was doing.

I run through the rest of the options,
the OC spray, the baton, all these things.

No, no, no, they're not gonna work.

I spray people.

I'm gonna get sprayed now.

I can't see.

Everybody's going crazy.

I can't baton anyone.

I don't have the room to swing the baton.

And I was like, I don't have anything
on my belt that's gonna help me.

Mm-hmm.

I'm alone on this one.

What do I do?

And I remember at one point I
wasn't very religious at that point.

I had grew up in a, in a Christian
household, but I remember looking

down at my hands and just saying,
God, please do not let my hands break.

Mm-hmm.

I need them right now.

And I just started swinging.

Mm-hmm.

And it was, it wasn't like a, a,
well, I guess it was kind of like

a hockey fight in a sense where I
literally grabbed someone's shoulder.

And punched through their jaw
as hard as I could, cuz I knew I

had to start knocking people out.

Mm-hmm.

I had no choice.

This wasn't a love punch.

Like, Hey, get back, this was
a, I need to knock you out.

Mm-hmm.

And start dropping people.

And I did just that.

Uh, at that point I blacked out.

I don't remember a lot
of what happened then.

A lot of the gaps that get
filled in are from others.

But I went into a state where
I just flipped that switch

and I went to that next level.

Uh, I think I might've knocked out,
uh, four to five different people

as were surrounded by 50 and punches
are coming in from all angles.

And right around the time that about
four or five people are starting

to go down, I just reached down
and I grabbed one kid and I picked

him up and I turned him basically
parallel to the ground, like a log.

And I told my partner,
we're gonna move ahead.

We're running outta here.

Keep your back on mine.

Mm-hmm.

And I just used him as a battering
around and got out mm-hmm.

And got her out as well and
grabbed her, threw her in a pc.

I went into a PC and
we just left the area.

Mm-hmm.

There was nothing we could do.

Travis Bader: So what was
the aftermath on that one?

Nathan Kapler: For me personally?

Travis Bader: Well, I mean, there's gonna
be a, uh, report that needs to be written.

There's gonna be people that are
complaining about pre police brutality.

There's gonna be an environment
that you're working in that's

gonna be questioning your actions.

And then there's your, um, your own
personal, uh, process that you're

gonna be working through on that.

Nathan Kapler: Yeah, it was, it
was a really complex thing because

when we got back to the detachment,
which is a place of safety, right?

So now you're kind of starting to let
the body kind of decompress mm-hmm.

And letting some of that
adrenaline kind of fizzle out.

It's incredibly taxing on the
body, incredibly taxing on the

body to go through these things.

So I know for me in that moment, I was
basically incapacitated for probably

the better part of a few hours.

I have no memory of what I did
after, I think I just tried to rest.

I think, I think I went back and I took
my vest off and I just, I just tried to

allow the body to just rest and just be,
and just process what I just went through.

Did I have to explain all of this?

Absolutely.

Every single time we use force as
police, we have to write it down.

We have to say what happened, why we used
the force, we did justify our actions.

Uh, nothing bad ever came from it.

Nobody actually complained.

Mm.

Uh so I mean, and that
tells you something, right?

Mm-hmm.

As well.

Mm-hmm.

And.

But the impact of that, I mean, even in
the moment where, uh, my partner and I

sat down and now we're kind of switching
from almost losing our lives to now having

to report this and write and articulate
and account for what we had just done.

We didn't have a lot of time to really sit
and process, what did we just go through?

Hmm.

And how do you talk about it and
what, what kind of memories are

stored right now in this moment?

Like, it was incredibly foggy
as well for me in my mind.

You know, what was, what
did I just go through?

I couldn't put the pieces
of the puzzle together yet.

Right?

Hmm.

It just was too fresh.

So I think over time we tried our best
to come back as a team and kind of have

whatever crisis debriefing that we could.

But at the same time, we didn't do a good
job cuz it was us doing it for ourselves.

Right.

We might have went out for beers
and we're laughing about the story

and, Hey, everybody's a superhero.

We got outta this amazing story.

But no one's saying Yeah.

You know, like, that was scary.

Mm-hmm.

I was really sad.

I thought I was gonna lose my life.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

We're not drilling into the emotions
that we felt, and instead we're

bypassing that which is impacting our
ability to, to process that event.

Travis Bader: What happens
when you bypass those emotions?

Nathan Kapler: Well, a
couple things happen.

I'm not gonna get into the sciences
of it, but from what I've learned from

going through everything I've gone
through, uh, obviously when you go

through adrenaline, there's a lot of
chemicals that get dumped into the body.

They get stored in the muscles.

If you're not processing all of that
stuff alone, they get kinda locked

up in the muscles a little bit.

And it can create an imbalance right
in the body, same as your emotions.

So now if you have a, an incident where
you're going through something as a

police officer or first responder,
you're getting the adrenaline dump

and you're also getting the emotion.

If you're not properly dealing with both
of those issues, they just can hang out

in the muscles for years, unprocessed.

And over time it's like, you
know, the layers of the rock.

You've build up enough layers where now
all of a sudden you've got a really solid

rock with you that you're dragging around.

And how do you peel back the
layers of the onions so that you

can process everything that you've
gone through for 10, 15, 20 years?

And that's usually where a
lot of guys fall into crisis.

Hmm.

And they don't know how to
start peeling that back.

It's too much.

Travis Bader: Well, you've got
an interesting couple of episodes

on trauma being stored in the
body and not in the brain.

And I thought that's interesting.

Can you talk more on that?

Nathan Kapler: Yeah, absolutely.

So trauma, when I walked into, I'll
fast track the story, addiction issues,

rehab, very Okay to talk about it.

I walked into rehab and I,
and I asked that question.

I said, Hey, I'm here to deal
with the trauma that's in my head.

And this therapist who had a rat
tail, you know, sat down with me.

He's like, it's not on your head, son.

And I was like, where could it be?

It's in your body.

I'm like, no, it's not in my body.

Explain this.

Right.

Yeah.

So he says, you know what?

Read this book, waking
The Tiger by Peter Levine.

Amazing book.

The first chapter is the best part.

The rest kind of fizzles out.

It's kind of a, it's a slower read.

But in that, in that book, I learn about
this concept of the gazelle and the lion.

Okay.

So did you, have you heard this story?

No, no.

It's super cool.

Okay, so you got the gazelle.

The gazelle freaks out and goes, oh
no, I'm getting a attacked by a lion.

It's chasing me.

What do I do?

They go through the same response that we
do fight or flight switches on, and their

body gets a huge amount of adrenaline
dumped into the body, flares up the

muscles, flares up the breathing system
so that everything's primed to runaway.

Mm-hmm.

They don't fight they flight.

Mm-hmm.

We kind of.

Choose.

We either fight or we flight.

There's a new one called Freeze
that's kind of coming in where

some people do freeze, fight,

Travis Bader: flight,
freeze, posture, submit.

Uh, everyone's got their own

Nathan Kapler: little, yeah, yeah.

Right.

There's so many different versions.

So we kind of have this blended
approach of, you know, how do

we respond when we hit that?

But the gazelle, for the most part,
if he's abled B abled body, he's

gonna, he's gonna turn the switch on.

He's gonna flight, he's gonna run.

He has to, that's how he saves his life.

So that gazelle is
supercharged in that moment.

Right.

So that gazelle takes off like a shot.

Now if that lion can't catch
the gazelle, the gazelle will

go, it will find a safe place.

Once it's, once the chase is done
and it knows that it needs to

go and needs to stop, it needs
to take a break and it needs to

process what it just went through.

Hmm.

So that gazelle will actually
stop and shake violently for a

prolonged period of time to shake
out the adrenaline, the chemicals

that are now stored in that body.

It's gotta get rid of it somehow.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And that's kind of the interesting thing
where, you know, we as humans, we don't.

Take that, or we don't have that
ability to take that step, uh, in the

role of a first responder or even just
men, sometimes we think, oh, we go

through something significant, let's
just push on and go to the next thing.

I'll be okay.

I don't need to stop and shake or
talk or process what I just went

through, or really kind of allow myself
to express, Hey, what I just went

through was incredibly sad, tragic.

Mm-hmm.

All these different things, we
kind of just go, ah, you know what?

That was tough, but I'm good.

I'm just gonna keep forging on here.

So I always like to share that story
because it highlights this, this

thought of where the trauma sits.

Now, if we say, you know, trauma
doesn't exist in the mind, it

does actually exist in the mind.

It exists in the mind is a memory.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Flashbacks.

We can have a memory that pops up,
recalls the body into that certain state.

Now you're having more of a traumatic, uh,
re-experience of what you've been through.

Mm-hmm.

But overall, trauma lives in the body.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

So what would be some ways that
a person can move that trauma

outta the body without wearing it?

Like you see some people, they, they
talk about mental health or they

talk about addiction and that's them.

Hey, I'm Bob recovering addict.

I'm so-and-so with PTs D and I've
always been of the mindset that.

Not only do we not know all the ins and
outs about mental health and the nuances,

I think DSM five is what we're on right
now and it's reclassified PTs d and yet a

new another place and introduced C PTs, D
complex PTs d and they're still learning.

But I've always been of the mindset
that everybody can fix themselves.

Everybody can get to
a place of being good.

Um, sometimes you might need to be
shown the path we have to put the

effort and work in to get there.

But if we approach it from the
mindset of, I am good, I am fine.

I'm just working through an
injury at the moment, right?

There's, rather than mental health,
maybe call it like mental fitness,

kind of like, man, I, I injured and
muscle when I was working out, I

realized I'm gonna have to rest it
and ice it and, and, and all the rest.

The mindset that you are otherwise
good, we're just gonna work on this

one part, I think is a much healthier
way to be able to process and to say,

I'm broken, I'm broken, and this is
my big baggage that I have to continue

to work on for the rest of my life.

So how would, how would you approach
from your experience working through

those, those traumas that are
stored in the body and, and mind?

Nathan Kapler: I, I and I, I come
back to 2019 when I went to rehab and

I, again, I also walked in with two
trains of thought that trauma existed

in my mind and that I was also going
to rehab to deal with the trauma that

I experienced as a police officer.

Mm-hmm.

And for me, I was wrong
on both of those accounts.

Uh, it was very early on in my
process with rehab where they sat

me down and said, Hey, uh, you're
wrong about where trauma's stored.

You're also wrong about why you're here.

Hmm.

And I, I remember that hit me
like a ton of bricks and I, what,

what are you talking about now?

You know, man with a rat tail, right?

Who, who are you and why are
you telling me this and how

does this make any sense at all?

But he said, listen, where
this all starts for you and for

all of us is childhood trauma.

We've gotta take you back to that
place as a child to where some of

the more significant stuff happened
that you've never processed.

We don't get to just show up as,
you know, Nate, the police officer

for the last 14 years, and start
to unravel that piece of yarn.

Mm-hmm.

Because you have a whole segment
of life before that where the

yarn is still wound uptight.

And in order to make sure that you
have your best chance of success,

we have to unravel that piece
of yarn from the start to today.

And that's where I realized that.

There's parts of our journey with mental
health where yes, we can tell ourselves

that we're good, we're fine, we're working
on our issues, we're doing okay for now.

But you also have to ask yourself the
question of what is that keeping you from?

What next levels are there?

If you fully admit that you've gone
through something significant and

you're going to allow yourself to
heal and feel the past, all the hard

things that you've never processed.

For me again, I didn't
know which road to take.

I, I was kind of, you know, not really
into this vulnerability thing yet, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I was still very much like,
you know, I'm just gonna dip

my toes into this thing, right?

I'm just gonna dip my toes
a little bit into, you know,

what I've been through in life.

Mm-hmm.

And sure I healed, but my trajectory
took off when I finally said, how do

I approach vulnerability in the most
authentic way and allow myself to

really kind of have awareness into
everything that I've gone through to

feel it, to process it, to share it
with others, cuz there's lessons learned

in life from everything we go through.

And that piece has been better for
me than just dipping my toes in

the water and trying to carry the
backpack that's, you know, full of

a few less stones, but still there.

Travis Bader: So how do you share
that in the most authentic way?

Is that the podcast?

Nathan Kapler: It does not come easy.

You have to work up to this, uh,
you know, for, for a long time.

And I think when I finally hit my
crisis moment and I realized I needed

help and I was going through addiction,
I didn't know how to share my story.

And I was so pulled in.

I had so much armor on.

I wasn't willing to talk
or connect to anyone.

And if I did, I was using masks.

I was being either cynical or I was being,
trying to be the funny guy or trying to

just be anything but Nate and show up
and talk about the pain and suffering

that I had been through in my life.

And I left rehab in 2019 with this, this
seed that this, this gentleman planted.

And he said, Nate, only when you
decide to show up for yourself and

share your full story with others, you
will not grow until that day happens.

And I remember not really getting
the depth of that statement, really

understanding it in the moment, kind
of understanding it, but still being

like, no, this vulnerability thing, I
don't need to be vulnerable in order

to, you know, grow and heal from
everything that's happened to me.

So I tried to do it with the
dipping my toes in mentality.

Mm-hmm.

And I found over that time that once we
fell back into Covid and we were socially

isolating again, I started to fall
back into old routines and behaviors.

Addiction was becoming a thing again.

And I had a second son at that point.

And I remember looking at him and I
remember thinking in my mind, As a man

now, as a dad, this is my second kid.

If I don't change, I
stand to fuck this all up.

Mm-hmm.

And ruin everything for everyone.

The things that I have created, my kids,
my house, my wife, I stand to lose it

Travis Bader: all, you have to stop
the cycle at some point and you

have take steps to stop that cycle.

Nathan Kapler: So I committed to this
process of looking at him in his crib,

going, how do I do this differently?

It didn't make, sobriety didn't
make sense to me in that moment.

Mm-hmm.

It really didn't.

But I said, is there a chance
that sobriety could be the answer?

And I had no idea, but I also
knew the way that I was doing

it wasn't working anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Using medical cannabis to try and
deal with the PTSD and the symptoms.

Yes, it works, but it's
a very slippery slope.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Much like we talked about, you've
gotta deal with the root issue.

You can't just put a
bandaid on these things.

Throwing medication at mental health
is, yes, it buys us time to continue to

navigate through whatever we're going
through, whether it's the environment

or these certain issues, but does it
really deal with the root cause, the

root issue, and we all have those
things in us, those root issues.

Some of us are more scared
to open up and share them.

The, from what I've learned from
my own story, Trav, is that the

only, the sh the only part of shame
that exists in this experience.

Is holding it in and not
allowing it to come out.

There's no shame in sharing your story,
like as I share my story with you.

Yes.

Years ago, I would've had immense amounts
of judgment or, or fear of judgment.

Mm.

Right.

I would've felt, oh, Travis is
never going to accept me as a man

because I've been through so much.

I think that's

Travis Bader: changing.

I think people's perception
on that is changing.

I hope I, I do, I believe it is.

I believe that people will look at
this and say, holy crow, how do I,

how do I become a man like that?

How do I become a man who's
able to talk openly and freely

about things that I would find
incredibly difficult to talk about?

Nathan Kapler: Absolutely.

So, and my story continues.

It wasn't until coming out of, uh,
coming outta the pandemic and looking

at my son, where I recognized, okay,
what does this sobriety thing look like?

No idea, but I'm gonna commit to it.

I'm just gonna see where it goes.

So that, that was sobriety from
alcohol, sobriety, from medical

cannabis, medical cannabis.

Yeah.

I had a brief window where
alcohol was an issue, but not.

Mm-hmm.

I was definitely drinking a little
bit more to hide some of the pain and

suffering that I was going through.

But for a majority, I, I never liked
alcohol cuz you always woke up the

next morning in a lot more pain.

Mm.

Whereas with medical cannabis, you would
take it and it would slow the central

nervous system down and calm the amygdala
down so you wouldn't have as much fear.

Mm.

You wouldn't be as scared because over
time, if we go through enough trauma,

the brain will actually shift and that
amygdala will grow and it can actually

grow to a point where you actually
almost become paranoid and very fearful.

Cuz now the body's trying to say,
okay, you've been through too much.

How do we send off more louder
warning signs so you don't continue

to re-experience this stuff.

Mm-hmm.

So the body's trying to shift you
and bring you back to equilibrium

and you're fighting it, you're
still running towards the fire.

So I found medical cannabis really
helped with taming that, allowing

me to relax, allowing me to sleep.

There was a, it was a very long
period where, uh, I was an insomniac.

I didn't sleep.

I would maybe sleep 15 minutes a night
and at that time, like the mind is

churning in a way I'd never experienced.

Right.

It was this, this hypervigilant
state that would carry through, uh,

well into the morning early hours.

And I, I, there was no way I could
fall asleep cuz the mind was just

churning, churning, churning.

And it had been, the body had experienced
way too much trauma and it couldn't

find peace or rest, so it couldn't
get into sleeping and recovering.

And that's also very dangerous for us too.

Travis Bader: So my understanding is
the amygdala is your emotional center.

Um, hippocampus would be memories.

Um, prefrontal cortex will be how you
think about things in, in the moment.

And these things get stored in
different parts of our brains and

different substances will either,
uh, rewire the brain or suppress

certain parts of the brain.

Uh, I've seen, and I haven't listened to
him yet, but you've got podcasts about,

um, uh, cannabis and about psychedelics,
and there's lots to talk about it.

I know you've a friend of mine.

He is a ambassador on the Heroic Hearts
program outta the UK for psychedelic,

um, assisted recovery for mental health.

How does that all kind of fall in?

Because it's a very different sort
of a, a thought process than what

most than what I was raised around.

Drugs are bad, right?

Don't do them.

Um, now people are saying
almost like it's a panacea.

He here cbd, it's legal, it's gonna
fix everything here, psychedelics,

they're gonna fix everything.

I gotta think.

It's gotta be like most other medications,
they help a little bit, maybe in the time

if used properly, but you have to have a
plan in place for how you approach this.

What, what's your experience

Nathan Kapler: with this?

Yeah.

And again, I'll, before I jump, continue
to jump further ahead, uh, in my own mind.

So when I really started to embrace
this sobriety thing, just going

back, uh, one question here, um,
that's when I started to really open

up and start sharing my, my story.

I started on TikTok of all places,
and it was safe for me, right?

Because my family wasn't there.

They weren't on TikTok Interesting.

And my closest friends weren't there.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

But at, as you know, time went on and
I'm on TikTok and I'm doing these lives

and I'm talking about, Hey, I'm a cop.

You know, I'm just
throwing myself out there.

I'm trying the sobriety thing and,
and, uh, you know, there was immense

amount of fear about talking about this
stuff and still being a police officer.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

But I, I knew I had to do something
drastically different, and I didn't

quite understand where this was gonna
take me, but I just said, you know what?

It's worth a shot.

I've got nothing to lose.

I've been doing it the other way for so
long, it's just, it's not working anymore.

As time went on, there was a, there
was a, a decent like group of community

members that showed up and they
were all like, Hey, this is amazing.

I'm going through the same thing.

And I started to see that other
people went through this stuff too.

Hmm.

Right.

The old adage of, Hey, you're
not alone, works great.

When I tell you, Hey, Trav, you're
not alone in your struggles in life.

Mm-hmm.

But until you sit down and you talk
about your struggles, you don't really

get it out on the table and you don't
really feel it, you don't really process

it, you don't really connect over it.

And that's, that's a really
kind of cool place to heal.

And so doing this on TikTok allowed
me to see that, okay, you know what?

There's something legitimate here where
we can have a bigger conversation, but

I've gotta do it on a different platform.

I gotta do it on a, on a podcast platform.

Because every time I did these
lives on TikTok, somebody missed it.

They were out doing life, and they
couldn't just turn the podcast on, you

know, on the drive to work or whatever.

So I kind of stumbled on podcasting
just from people saying, Hey, have

you thought about starting a podcast?

Your stuff is good.

I want to hear it, but I, I'm not
always available to catch you.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

So that's how that, that started.

And again, I just continued talking and
just talking about sobriety and talking

about everything I had been through.

And it's been a very cathartic therapeutic
journey where I can honestly say all

the stones that I had in that backpack,
you know, have been emptied out.

And I feel so much lighter now.

So much lighter.

No more shame, no more guilt.

You know, the feelings that I had
that I hid behind, you know, the

armor and tried to hide what I
was going through, it's all gone.

It's on the table.

Travis Bader: Are you concerned
with being labeled as a PTSD

guy, the guy who's always talking

Nathan Kapler: about his story?

No, I'm not.

Because there's two kinds
of guys that do this.

There's the kind of guy that says, Hey,
I've got ptsd, T S D, I don't know how

to grow and I'm never going to grow.

Mm-hmm.

And then there's me who
says, yeah, you know what?

In the past I had ptsd, T S D, but I'm
learning on how to get out of that place.

Do I still have symptoms?

Absolutely.

How could you not it, I went through
14 years of service with the mounts.

I saw some pretty intense stuff, but
I know how to, I know how to deal

with my health a lot better now.

I have much better tools.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So I don't see myself as the guy that's,
you know, throwing the pity party.

That's not what I'm looking for.

I'm looking more as the, Hey, we're all
gonna go through some stuff in life,

whether you're a police officer or not.

How do you navigate that?

Hmm.

So I've now kind of learned to turn
this into a, here's how I'm growing.

Do you want to tag along for the journey?

I'll share everything that I've
learned much like yourself.

You're doing something very
similar here too, right?

Mm-hmm.

You're pushing people ever
so slightly every day.

This is how you better yourself.

I'm gonna bring you value, I'm gonna bring
you value, I'm gonna bring you value.

And I think when we can finally embrace,
for me anyways, when I, when I finally

embraced vulnerability, sobriety,
and all of these different things and

started telling my story, I actually
began to leave that place of ptsd, T S

D, and I don't feel like I'm attached
to it as much as I, I used to be.

You still

Travis Bader: feel there's
an attachment though?

Will there always be there?

Nathan Kapler: There are definitely
symptoms that still pop up, but I know

how to catch them now and do breath work.

Meditation, yoga, go for a walk.

I know how to tell when the body's
stressed out, it's impacting the mind.

Maybe I'm not sleeping as well, so I need
to sh you know, make those subtle shifts.

Much like when we were having
that conversation earlier.

When we're healthy, we can pick up on the
things that we need to do in the moment to

shift us and keep us in that normal range.

But when we start to fall apart,
we kinda lose that ability.

The body's now adapting again.

Right.

So I've come back into a more normal,
I'll say, a more normal healthy range.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't use normal as in
this, you know, life is abnormal.

Sure.

We go through some stuff, right?

Sure.

Um, I would explain it that way.

Travis Bader: How do you identify
when you see in your body?

What are some symptoms?

Levels of activation?

Nathan Kapler: Yeah.

Levels of activation.

Uh, I don't handle stress
as well as I used to.

So I find that, and I don't know
if this is a cortisol thing or not,

but I get a lot of muscle aches, a
lot of pain in the muscles mm-hmm.

Uh, throughout the body.

So if I've been going through too many
stressful events in the day or the week,

or I'm not taking the time to walk or
work out or workout or, or meditate

or kind of reestablish and rebalance
the body, I get a lot of muscle aches.

Hmm.

Um, you know, a lot of times that
irritability tends to kick up too, when

we're really struggling with something.

Right.

We become angry.

So that for me is a huge red flag.

If I'm starting to get angry and
I have, you know, I really have to

check myself on what's going on.

I know I'm not doing well and I gotta
nudge myself back into a place of more

compassion, more patience, more whatever.

Right.

And as a dad too, very difficult.

Mm.

Right.

When you have young kids mm-hmm.

Like, you really do
have to check yourself.

Right.

You had a father who is, uh,
who is, you know, in policing.

That's right.

Right.

And um, you know, I'm sure
we can all remember that.

And, and for me, my dad too, growing up.

He had some pretty angry moments.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

And I want to try to get rid of those
so that my kids know that there's,

there's love and compassion in the house.

Mm-hmm.

And, and change that.

Um, and I think it's really important
for men to understand and really

know themselves on what they need so
that they can keep themselves well.

Like, this isn't even really
a P T S D topic anymore.

Now we're just talking
about mental health.

Hmm.

What does your mental health look like
so that you're staying well, so that

you can be a, a great dad, a provider,
uh, you can, you know, invest in your

community and see others succeed.

You have to look at yourself first,
and you really have to ask yourself

some hard questions about where
are you with your own health.

Travis Bader: You never, we
never did touch on the, uh,

the psychedelic part though.

Nathan Kapler: Drugs.

Yeah.

Drug is such, such an interesting thing.

Right.

I come, I come from a background where,
yeah, I fall into addiction with cannabis,

but the very beginning stages of it,
and this is what it taught me, is that

there is a therapeutic value to it.

It does help for sure.

But when it's, when there's no tailored
supported kind of guideline in place

for the people that are using it, it can
become a very slippery slope very quickly.

Hmm.

And we have to be very careful with that.

We also don't have a lot of
knowledge or research yet hard

cold facts about what does it do?

Like, what does it actually do?

Because they've been illegal
for a number of years.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

So we don't have that.

So we're now starting to look at,
okay, we're kind of shifting from

prohibition into, okay, medical
ca or cannabis now is legalized.

Right?

We're using it, the world's not burning.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Similar to y2k, everything
worked out okay.

Mm-hmm.

Cannabis, everything
seems to be a going Okay.

So now we're starting to study it
and we're starting to see kind of the

benefits, some of the cons as well.

And we're starting to arm ourselves
with that knowledge about where can it

be used, under what circumstance, you
know, what's the best way to use it.

So I think we're at the infancy stage
of, you know, really understanding

what some of these chemicals
and compounds can do for us.

One of the beautiful things I
see, uh, happening right now,

I think, is it Ryan Miller?

Ryan Miller on YouTube.

Okay.

Navy Seal.

Okay.

Have you ever seen this?

I,

Travis Bader: I haven't, I'll be honest.

I don't really listen to podcasts or,
uh, but, uh, I'll, I'll pick out parts.

I get parts, the ADHD kicks in and I, uh,
for a guy who's got a podcast, I really

probably should pay a bit more attention.

Nathan Kapler: But it makes sense.

If you make a podcast, the
last thing you're gonna do

is listen to another podcast.

I, again, it's, it all comes
down to timing and stuff, right?

So I'm the same way, but Ryan,
I believe it's Ryan Miller or

Ryan Shaw, I can't remember.

I'll get the name of it here for
you cuz it's a fascinating story.

But he has someone come on a
Navy Seal and these guys are like

the elite of the elite, right?

Mm-hmm.

They're out there doing
some pretty intense stuff.

And you know, this gentleman to kind
of condense the story talks about his

experience where I think he had been
in therapy for a number of years,

it kind of had helped and they were
dealing with some stuff, but a lot of

times we hold ourselves back and we
hide and we're not really willing to

show the root or deal with the root.

Right.

That's kind of a part of the
process too with mental health.

Mm-hmm.

As we try to protect ourselves.

And what he ends up doing is he ends
up going down and trying this, I again,

Experience at a retreat in Mexico.

And he goes through, I think it
was Ibogaine mixed with D M T.

And I think it's a seven day period
where there's uh, there's doctors

there and shamans, and there's all
these support people that literally

say, okay, here's what you're doing.

We're gonna be here to help
you walk through this journey.

Hmm.

And they do it.

And a lot of people are coming
out of this saying, you know what?

Everything that I struggled with,
you know, not having positive

emotion, only negative mm, not
feeling love or compassion anymore.

Not being able to sleep anymore, having
a mind that's constantly racing, having

a body that doesn't feel safe, having
anxiety to the point where my hands

are sweating and I'm always shaking,
being fearful all the time, having

feelings of dread, shame, and guilt.

All this stuff that comes from repeated,
uh, exposures to trauma is gone.

Interesting.

So what do we know?

We know nothing.

Hmm?

We're just starting.

So my opinion is, I think we all need to
have an open mind on where this can go.

Travis Bader: So you went to rehab and
they say you've gotta unpack things

that have happened in your past.

Was that the majority of
the work that was done?

Nathan Kapler: Yes and no.

Uh, as six weeks stay in
rehab, what did we do?

We did a lot, uh, and we did a lot
of talking and we learned how to

really talk about our emotions and
really connect with our emotions and

the stuff that happens in our past.

Childhood trauma was kind of
the starting point for me where

uh, we touched on a memory that
absolutely broke me in the moment.

Hmm.

I was sitting in a chair and it
was the first time in my adult life

that I was finally able to see and
express something in my childhood

that was to me at that stage.

So horrific, so painful, such a breach
of trust that I finally allowed myself to

feel it and break from it and just cry.

Have you talked about

Travis Bader: this on your podcast?

Nathan Kapler: Uh, it involves a
family member, so I try not to go

too deep into it, but, uh, I don't,
I think I've alluded to this event,

but I don't think I've gone too deep.

Uh, just outta respect
for family members, right?

Because there, there's an interesting
thing that happens in this moment when we

first go through this, this memory of, you
know, why did this person do this to me?

There's a lot of anger there
cuz you don't understand it.

And eventually you have to learn
how to try and forgive that person

for what they were going through in
their life that caused them to have

this reaction cuz it actually was
less about you and more about them.

And that's kind of an interesting thing
too, where you start to begin to teach

yourself how to have more compassion
for others and some of the pain that

they might be going through, because
we're all struggling with something.

Mm-hmm.

So we gotta try and find a way
to forgive people and understand,

uh, maybe from their end.

Now that doesn't excuse this person
for what they did, but I also have to

move on with my life, and I have to
not let this be a stone in my backpack

and I have to let that stone come out.

Travis Bader: How has that stone

Nathan Kapler: come out?

It has, um, it has, for me, uh, the way
that it came out, I didn't need to go to

this individual and hash out, you know,
in years past, this is what happened.

We need to talk about it.

That was so long ago, right?

Mm-hmm.

I was able to feel the emotion
while I was in rehab, talk about

it in rehab, and get it out.

Mm-hmm.

Like, let the body finally
feel this and just let it out.

And that, for me, that that emotion or
that that moment for me in my life too,

is a moment where I look back and now,
and I really recognize that as a kid,

I didn't know how to process that, so I
just armored up as a kid, put the armor

on and said, nobody's gonna hurt me.

Mm-hmm.

Not anymore.

So I had this approach of, you
know, trying to protect myself and

stay inwards and not, you know,
allow myself to really come out.

So these are all things I
had to learn as an adult.

So it's almost like in a sense, like
I was listening to the Foo Fighters on

the drive in today and it was, he was
talking about learning to walk again.

And I mean, we do this when we, we break
a leg, but when you, when you go through

something significant in your life,
i e mental health, you have to really

challenge yourself on the old ways and
say, okay, how am I gonna do this now?

How am I gonna grow from this place?

So has the stone come out?

The stone has come out because I see it.

Uh, I know what I needed to do.

I needed to forgive this individual.

Um, will I ever talk about
it openly with that person?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I, you know, may, may.

Maybe I need to.

I have no idea.

I

Travis Bader: have.

How, how would you know?

Nathan Kapler: I think it's, I think
it's something that if you're still

struggling with it and you really gotta
pay attention to what's going on right.

With the body.

Um, cuz there was definitely a time
when I used to think about this, it

would cause the body to get fearful.

Hmm.

Or to shake, or it would cause
some, some heavy and hard emotions.

Whereas now I can think about this
moment and go, okay, there's really

no emotional connection to it anymore.

Right.

I'm not feeling sad anymore.

I'm not feeling like I
need to let anything out.

Um, you know, I have a lot more
acceptance over the why, right?

Mm.

I don't blame that person.

I accept that, okay, you know what,
this is something that they were going

through and I think, I don't know if
this is the answer or not, but when you

can finally look back and just have an
understanding and have peace around that,

that's gotta be some level of healing.

Travis Bader: So exposure therapy
would be talking about it, putting

yourself back into that sort of mental
situation and trying to find a way to

deal with that in a more positive way.

Is there a concern about, and I've
heard the analogy of the, the dirt road.

You go down that dirt road, you hit a
bump, you go down that same dirt road,

you hit the bump again, it gets a bit
deeper, and pretty soon it's kind of hard.

You start wearing ruts and
you keep going down that same

road, that same mental process.

Is there a benefit to just
drawing an X through that road

and taking a different road?

Nathan Kapler: What I've learned
about mental health is that anytime

there's an issue with your mental
health, the first thing you're gonna

do when you look at something and you
ask yourself that question of Should

I walk towards this issue or not?

If the answer is, I'm going
to embrace denial and avoid.

That usually means there's
some work to do there.

Hmm.

Right.

So I've adopted that approach for myself.

So we talk about this, this road, right?

And sure.

If we, if we dwell on too much of the
past, that can be very problematic.

It takes us outta the present
moment, and that's all we have in

this life is the present moment.

I agree.

Not the future.

Not the past.

Mm-hmm.

If we think too broadly about
that stuff, we do have to do

it for some things, right?

Planning houses, the kids, vacations, you
know, finances, all that kind of stuff.

Let yourself do that, but try
to stay in the present moment.

If we think too much about the past,
it's gonna suck you down into this,

this horrible way of being where, and
I think a lot of people get lost there.

I agree.

They get lost.

In the past.

Travis Bader: The, your past doesn't
exist, essentially oth side of your

memory or the memory of others, or
your perception of others', memory of

Nathan Kapler: that.

Absolutely.

Your experiences are very valid.

What you think you've
learned from it, very valid.

But could you have learned something
that actually doesn't serve you?

Hmm.

So what I try to do now is I try to
look at my past and go, okay, yeah,

you know what, this happened to me.

This created a sense of, uh, Unrest.

Like for me, for example, when I went
through this significant thing as a

child, it happened with another man.

So for many years I really had a
hard time walking into a room with

a man feeling comfortable and just
showing up and sharing who I was.

Mm-hmm.

I hid for a long time.

And I think we can all kind
of resonate with that, right?

We might kind of feel more comfortable one
way or the other to a certain sex, right?

Whether it's female or male because
of something that's happened to us.

So, and those are the interesting
things that you gotta pay

attention to in your life.

The challenges where you gotta
go, okay, what's going on here?

Why do I not feel safer around men?

Why do I not feel safer around women?

If that's the case for you?

Hmm.

So for me, having that breach of trust,
uh, in men, I did struggle with, you

know, having that ability to connect
with a man much different now, right?

Mm-hmm.

I can sit here with you and
I'm like, Hey, I'm good.

Hmm.

I'm good.

You know, I

actually, I want to thank you today
for this opportunity because this has

very little to do with us, and it's
just us sharing our story and hopefully

investing in others through what we've
learned in life, sharing our experiences.

I mean, and, and I've gotta check myself
too in this, that we're not always right

about everything that we do in life.

We make mistakes.

My advice is not gonna be for everyone.

My story is not going to be
for everyone, but the beauty.

In having, you know, connection with
others, in listening to others and their

perspectives is where we can really grow.

And I think you and what you're
doing here in having that ability

to ask those tough questions, right?

To try and bridge the gap between two
people to be like, okay, I now understand

a little bit more about mental health.

Cuz I think too, with mental health,
mental health is viewed from so

many different angles, right?

There might be preconceived ideas
about what does suicide look like?

Addiction, what does that look like?

How do we approach it?

We might have biases towards those issues.

Did you have

Travis Bader: suicidal ideation?

Nathan Kapler: I did.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

How did that present itself?

You know, as a cop, when I first started
my journey, uh, I became reckless.

Hmm.

You know, there were certain points where
I should have been protecting myself.

And instead, you know, somebody would
say, Hey, I'm gonna fight you right now.

I'm gonna punch you in the face.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd say, you get the first shot.

Mm-hmm.

Make it count.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Who does that?

But by that point, as a cop, I had
gotten so numb and disconnected

with trying to protect myself.

I was just at my point where I was
like, okay, do what you gotta do.

Right.

I was still willing to show up
and fight, but in the end, any cop

who's doing the job at the very
beginning would just automatically

go into, Hey, you're under arrest.

Like, we're gonna do this right now.

Right.

But I'd gotten to a point where
I was like, I'm invincible.

I'd gotten an ego problem.

It was very cocky.

Right.

And I was starting to walk that
line, that more kind of twisted

dark line that happens in law
enforcement where you're now numb to

your own idea of being safe at home.

There was, there was many moments where
you have thoughts of, and suicide.

You, when you talk about suicide
with people, you always ask them,

Hey, have you ever had, uh, have
you ever had suicidal thoughts?

Everybody right away says,
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

And I think where people's minds can
go to at certain moments with that is,

you know, have you actually had the
thought of trying to harm yourself?

That end stage suicidal thought,
though, can be something as minor as,

Hey, I'm really struggling in life
right now with this painful event.

I don't know how to walk through it.

I I don't really wanna be here anymore.

Hmm.

It can be very, something
just kind of quiet too.

Right.

And that's, that's the brain
just expressing and sending a,

almost like a warning flare.

Like, Hey, you're going through
something significant, some

serious pain and suffering.

There's no shame in, uh, acknowledging
that, but we have shame around

trying to express that and let it
out and ask for help from others.

So, suicidal ideation for me at
the time, uh, when I was going

through some of the pain was, you
know, I was also socially isolated.

Uh, sometimes after work I would
just lock myself in a room cuz I

felt I needed time to decompress.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And that's when some of those
thoughts would happen, right.

Where you're alone and you're like,
holy man, like, life is tough.

What would it be like if
I wasn't here anymore?

Right.

And some of those thoughts
absolutely happened for me.

I have no shame to talk about it.

It it's a very normal response to,
again, if you go through enough

significant stuff in life, you're
going to have those thoughts.

They're very normal now.

They're not healthy.

Right.

We've gotta take action on those.

Travis Bader: So you're talking
about numbing and numbing to

people and losing trust in people.

I remember I was passenger driving back
from the range friend, uh, near his

end of term with law enforcement and
there's a, uh, vehicle catches fire up

ahead of us and, uh, it was a, uh, Jeep,
uh, pickup truck and the whole thing

basically blows up and, uh, guy comes out
and he's all sined up and everything's

melting off and like pulling over.

Let's help him out, right?

He's like, Nope, nope,
I don't wanna be late.

Just leave it for someone else.

And, and there's a level of
callousness that can come into those

who work as first responders and
I'm looking at him like, you know,

at least get this guy off the row.

He's walking around.

Someone else is gonna hit him in these.

Um, but uh, how do you deal with that?

Because it sounds like you
had to deal with that and

there's a bit of a disconnect.

How do you get that reconnection
back to humanity if you're to be

able to get in line with that Harvard
study of having those strong social

Nathan Kapler: connections?

Getting into policing.

You walk in as one of the most
compassionate people out there,

they hire you on that alone.

You have to have that empathy,
that compassion, because you're

gonna be dealing with the most
vulnerable level of society.

That 1% that is just going through
something so significant that when

you walk into those shoes, you have
no idea what what's really going on

or what this world even looks like.

There's nothing that
can prepare you for it.

Even if you watch Rookie Blue, right?

Like nothing's gonna get you ready
for the the downtown east side, right?

Mm.

Being down there really immersed in,
okay, what's really going on here?

Not just a simple hello, but
now we're interacting with you.

Now we're seeing what this looks like.

Now we're seeing and feeling what this
looks like to be a cop interacting with

someone who has significant issues.

And what was the question

Travis Bader: again?

How do you get that
reconnection here with humanity?

Yeah.

Nathan Kapler: Compassion fatigue.

So yeah, sorry, where I was going, the.

Walking in as a police officer, I had that
ability, but over time I had lost that

ability to have the compassion cuz I hit
compassion, burnout, compassion fatigue.

And I just, I remember sitting
there one day and I was like,

I walked into the office and I
was like, I don't care anymore.

Mm.

I don't care about anyone anymore.

And I actually was angry with
people because I had went

through something on the podcast.

I share this story about where
I had to put a horse down.

Mm.

Possibly a drunk driver hit a
horse, left him in the ditch.

We ended up getting
called out in the morning.

I had to put this horse down.

This horse was left, the
beautiful horse was left in the

ditch to suffer all night long.

How could a human being
do this to an animal?

Hmm.

Right.

I kind of understood how humans could
be, you know, manipulative or, um, they

could wanna harm other human beings.

But to see an animal who's done nothing
to anyone, be left in that condition.

I remember that was the moment
for me where I hit compassion

burnout in compassion fatigue.

And I got to a place where not only
did I not hold compassion for people,

but I also hated them for what they
were capable of doing in the world.

And I think that too is a very
dangerous place as a man or or woman.

So how do you, how do
you get through that?

Again, very much like a broken leg.

You've gotta acknowledge, okay, I'm here.

I have comp, uh, compassion fatigue.

And I don't think there's any shame
with finally hitting that place in

those roles in society because we're
not ready to deal with that level.

Like no one's taught us about,
Hey, this is what compassion

fatigue is gonna look like.

You're not armed with any knowledge.

So you kind of just end up
stumbling on this place where

you go, yeah, I'm burnt out.

Mm, I don't have compassion anymore.

I've never been here
before to this degree.

I don't know what this looks like.

I don't know how to explain
what I'm experiencing.

I don't know how to ask for help or even
deal with just this little compassion

fatigue thing that I'm going through.

So over time, all of these issues
blended and blended into PTs D becoming a

diagnosis for me and things getting worse.

But ultimately I was able to start to
teach myself, okay, this is what it

means to become compassionate again.

And a big part of, I think the journey
was something that I touched on was

trying to figure out how to forgive
people, the ones that hurt you the most.

Hmm.

And I just said, you know what?

If there's anywhere I should start,
I should try to start building

compassion for those people.

I had been through enough, with
enough people at that point.

I kind of knew the, the main
people in my life that had hurt me.

Hmm.

And I kind of said, you know what?

Instead of looking at them and being
angry or having blame or, you know,

trying to place guilt on them for
what they had done, how do I just

approach this and say, you know what?

I'm gonna build compassion
towards that person.

I'm not gonna express it to that person,
but I'm just gonna build it and forgive,

not forgive them, but allow myself to
have forgiveness so that I can walk

through this and let it go, and still
have compassion to that individual for

what they were going through their life.

And understand their story from
their perspective in that moment.

Because once you do that, you
actually start to see kind of again,

it has very little to do with you.

Mm.

It's what they're struggling
with in that moment.

And now all of a sudden you're building
compassion for others and you're starting

to invite empathy back into your world.

And you're starting to reconnect
and you're starting to have

those social connections again.

And you're really starting
to pour that care into others

and yourself at the same time.

So it's a slow process and I think
you kind of, I think everybody can ask

themselves those hard questions of, okay,
where is my level of compassion right now?

And that's usually one thing that I
really ask myself at the beginning of

the day, where is my level of compassion?

And if it's not in a great place,
I know I gotta do some work.

Do

Travis Bader: you find that there's a
common thread as you look through from

childhood to where you are now, a common
thread that you've been able to identify

for, uh, different moments, whether
you've invited them into your life

knowingly or not, or, um, I mean, you
talk about compassion and forgiveness.

You're not gonna want to be at a
point where you now all of a sudden

find that in your life again.

So you're probably gonna want
to put up some mental barriers

as well, some little flags.

Oh, I can see a pattern similarity
to what I've seen in the past.

Like you, there's gonna be a certain
level of vi vigilance that's required,

not over vigilance, but there's gonna
be a certain level of vi vigilance.

Have you been able to
identify an ongoing pattern?

Nathan Kapler: One of the really
interesting things that I learned along

this journey is I sucked at boundaries.

Hmm.

So much.

So I let everyone in.

Hmm.

You know, good bad in the middle.

I let them all in.

Now, some people out there are definitely
very hurt, and there could be a connection

that is formed with that person where
they're gonna now try to hurt you.

I worked with a narcissist sociopath that
was going through some very significant

issues, and those had issues on me.

Hmm.

And instead of in the moment
addressing it and having a boundary

and saying, no, you're not gonna be
a part of my life, professional or

personal, I allowed it to continue.

And over time, that eroded my own health.

Because of the stress of the environment
and what that individual was going

through and putting me through.

Right.

So I think over time I've learned that
very crucial lesson that I'm now a

lot more selective on who I led in.

Travis Bader: Is that not a circle though?

Is that not a level of vigilance and not,
obviously there's a balance between trying

to have those social connections and
let people into your life and be able to

share and who you're now there's gonna be
a judging process on everybody you meet.

Nathan Kapler: Uh, I, I don't think it's
as much of a, uh, like a filter where

you either get to come in or you don't.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I let everyone come in, but
for the most part, if there is

really unhealthy behaviors there,
I just don't get that close.

Cuz there's no point
in, in that for, for me.

Right.

To get that close to you, I'll help you,
I'll tell you, Hey, you're not doing well.

Right.

Instead of just sweeping it under
the rug and saying, yeah, we can

have this personal connection or
professional, or whatever the case is.

Hmm.

But in order to protect yourself as
a man, protect what you're building,

your family, your children, everything.

I think as men, as we age and we
get a little bit older, we get very

good at spotting people who are,
you know, struggling to a degree

and we can say, Hey, we love you.

We support you.

Keep working on yourself.

One day we'll have a better connection.

But for right now, I got
other stuff going on.

Hmm.

Right.

And it's more of a, I still, because
I don't, I don't look at people

and I say, I don't accept you.

I try to accept everyone because.

We're all going through something
in life, and everyone deserves an

opportunity to grow and to shift
outta whatever they're experiencing.

I truly believe that.

But for me, I've got enough going on
in, in my world now that I try to focus

more on, okay, who are the men and the
people in my life that are gonna help me

to grow and really stay, uh, in a mode
of success and challenge myself, uh, to

continue to grow and while I reach back
and I lend a, a helping hand through

the podcast and different other means.

You've gotta kind of have that balancing
act of having these boundaries now and

learning when to say, Hey, sorry if I
step back and I move in that direction

with you, I take away from my progress.

Hmm.

Right.

So I'm moving forward.

You can come on this journey with me.

It's your choice, but

Travis Bader: it it, it feels like
you've made incredible progress

over, what has it been four years

Nathan Kapler: now?

3, 2, 3.

Travis Bader: It, it feels like you've
made incredible progress over a couple

of years to be able to talk about
these things openly and articulately.

What areas are still
of a challenge to you?

Nathan Kapler: Uh, that's
a really good question.

I've gotten really good.

At connecting with others and
putting myself out there and

developing a social connection.

I'm still incredibly hard on
myself that first thought of,

should I do this or should I not?

Is always there.

I'm always gonna say, no,
you're not gonna do a good job.

No, nobody's gonna listen.

No, you don't have value.

Right?

Those are the tricks that
mine tries to tell you.

Even driving in here today, I was
excited to sit down and do this

with you, but at the same time it's
like, is this gonna be a good thing?

Right?

We always have that little, that
little voice in the back of our heads.

So I'm trying to reinforce in my own
journey now, not listening to that

voice, acknowledging it, but at least
overriding it and saying, Hey, you're

allowed to be there, but it's wrong.

Hmm.

I like that.

And, and I'm finding now that cuz we
all, we have 60,000 thoughts a day.

Is that what it is?

Are 30,000 of those, the ones
that are screaming in the

background, Hey, don't do this.

You're not good enough.

Uh, you're gonna be a failure,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I, I've now started to accept that
and just say, you know, who cares?

What if you fail?

What if I show up today and I do this
with you, and it's a complete flop?

It doesn't matter.

I feel fantastic cuz I'm getting
it out and I don't know if you

feel fantastic doing this episode.

Oh, I love it.

I hope so.

Oh yeah.

Right.

But that's all that matters.

Just showing up and doing the hard work.

Like yeah, we're, we're investing our
time into giving back value to others.

But at the same time, like I'm
sitting down at a table with you.

A hundred percent connected.

A hundred percent connected.

Travis Bader: I like that analogy.

Uh, Seb Lavo, he's been on
the podcast in the past.

He's xrcmp as well.

He gave the analogy of
the, uh, the Wolf You feed.

I think you've probably heard that one.

Right.

And he says, um, you gotta feed 'em both.

You gotta recognize
that they're both there.

Feed 'em both.

Otherwise you're gonna have one that's
ravenous and then you've got a problem.

Nathan Kapler: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think I, at certain points in my life,
I've tried to completely eliminate.

And again, we're now hinging on that
theme of when we avoid or deny Hmm.

That creates a bigger issue.

When we can accept that two thoughts
happen at the same time, we're

gonna kick ass on this podcast
or it's gonna be a complete flop.

You acknowledge both.

Mm-hmm.

But you turn to the one that says,
it's gonna be a fucking fantastic

podcast and we're gonna show up
and we're just gonna do our best.

Mm-hmm.

And that's all we can ask of ourselves.

You water that seed instead and
that one takes off like a shot.

That one's still there.

It's doing its thing.

Sure.

But you're not letting it win.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

What's been your biggest aha
moment through this whole process?

I.

Nathan Kapler: There were so many
points in this journey where I

thought, I am th this, this journey
that, that I'm on is not normal.

That I am so broken, that I'm of no value.

And again, very hard on myself.

I fed that other wolf.

I didn't feed the other seed.

Right.

The good one.

I fed the bad one.

Not the bad one, but the other one.

Right.

There's no bad thing in life.

Sure.

Right.

Travis Bader: There is neither good
nor bad, but thinking makes it so

Nathan Kapler: a hundred percent.

And I remember just being so incredibly
hard on myself and so defeated and so,

so just headed in the wrong direction.

And when I finally started to
recognize my, and you touched on

this, no one's gonna show up and
save you on this journey in life.

It comes from within.

Mm-hmm.

You gotta show up and
you gotta save yourself.

Mm-hmm.

And you gotta start watering the right
seeds, feeding the right wolves, hanging

out with the right people, really making
sure you're using your time appropriately.

Right.

Keeping the blade sharp.

Don't chase comfort.

Chase discomfort.

Mm-hmm.

And find that path, that one that
we always run from and hide from.

Take that road and it'll lead you to the
fastest, most amazing amount of growth

that you'll ever go through in life.

And that, for me was kind of the
aha moment where there were many

times in rehab where I would always
tell one therapist just giving me

the pill to make this all better.

So many people

Travis Bader: are like that, right?

That's our society is based on this.

Yeah.

There's this one thing.

It'll make you happy.

Yeah, it'll be good.

Give me

Nathan Kapler: that one thing.

Right?

I just need that one thing.

Fix me.

Hmm.

I was basically screaming that at the
top of my lungs while I was there, and

she turned to me and said, Nate, we're
not gonna do a damn thing for you.

You're gonna do it for yourself.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, oh, I
don't like this naturally.

But again, you learn.

You learn.

You've gotta discover how you work,
how you tick, what your experiences

are, why they're there in such a way,
and what they make you think and feel,

and how you respond behaviorally to
these things that you've learned.

You've gotta unlearn it and then
dig in and find the key that says,

okay, how do we do it differently?

Now?

I really

Travis Bader: like that sense of
personal agency, cuz that seems to

be a stripped away from most people.

There's a pill you can take.

There's a special thing you can do.

You can put your trust in someone else.

This magical program that you can
do will make you fit, will make you

attractive, will make you smart,
will make you whatever it might be.

But none of it's true.

No.

We have that own personal agency in
ourselves and that's the one thing that

I've seen been eroded in our society
to a very great degree for a long time,

for a multitude of different reasons.

But if people can just realize the level
of personal agency they have to affect

change in themselves, which in turn
will affect change in those around them,

man, you can do some pretty cool things.

Absolutely.

Nathan Kapler: Right.

Absolutely.

The level of intensity that you can now
bring to people and help them grow, right?

By showing them how
you've found your own way.

It's not a pill, it's not a workout plan.

Well, it is kind of a workout plan.

I gotta workout right To stay.

Well, surely.

Sure.

Right?

But it's nothing gimmicky.

You gotta spend the time and do the
hard work on yourself in order to

get to a place where you can finally
start to step forward and say,

Hey, you know, I'm doing better.

I had to solve this problem.

Not the person that did this to me,
not expecting someone else to show up.

Mm-hmm.

It was me all along.

I've got to do this.

And that was, that was for
me, definitely my aha moment.

Right?

No doctor's gonna save you.

Mm-hmm.

You are your doctor.

Mm-hmm.

What do you need?

Start doing it.

Travis Bader: And that's massive.

You go to a doctor, they
come out, they say whatever.

Maybe you connect, maybe you don't, and
you leave and you say, I didn't connect.

Doctors don't work.

Right.

Maybe they do connect, and if
they do connect, all they're

gonna tell you is you're fine.

There's some things you
gotta work through right now.

Here's some tools you can use.

Are you doing them?

It's, it's all on you.

A uh, friend of mine, ex British
military, and um, he, uh, what was it?

He said limit substances.

Exercise, sleep is crucial.

Um, I think there's one
more point in there, chase.

I may have missed it, but,
uh, connection people.

There you go.

Human connection.

Have that human connection, like
the formula's pretty simple.

Very simple.

But the idea that people, when
they approach this, it seems

so complex and, and difficult.

Well, I, I'm drinking because, or I'm,
I'm using drugs because of the difficulty.

I'm, if only I didn't have that
difficulty, I wouldn't do this.

I'm not exercising cuz I'm so, I'm just so
damn tired I haven't been able to sleep.

Right.

The process is simple.

At some point you gotta get off your
butt and move and you have to look at

what you're putting into your body.

And that was limiting of substances.

He says.

Could be, it could be your phone, right?

It could be a, a social media addiction.

It could be uh, uh, a number of things.

Um, the process is simple,
but you gotta take that

Nathan Kapler: step.

A hundred percent.

And, and you touched on something that
I, I try to touch on my podcast too quite

a bit, is addiction from many people.

Addiction has such this weird thing,
you ask one person about addiction,

Hey, what's your perspective on it?

And you ask a hundred people, you will get
a hundred different answers on addiction.

Mm-hmm.

What is it, what degree?

Uh, I know when I told one of my
friends, I was like, Hey, you know, I

went through this, this addiction thing.

Uh, I was active in addiction.

Right.

And it was pretty rough.

There was a lot of nasty stuff coming out.

And he is like, well, it's not
like you were addicted to heroin.

Right.

And I'm like, no, but still not great
to be addicted to medical cannabis.

Right, right.

And it was just kind of an interesting
aha moment where I was like, yeah,

people really, they really have
a different view of addiction.

And one of the things I try to
showcase on this, and you touched on

it and I love it, is that addiction
can take so many different forms.

Pornography, cell phone, the numbing
out, detaching, disassociating.

You can use so many different things
to, uh, be addicted to, to avoid that

pain and suffering that's in your life.

Mm-hmm.

And if you need to find the key to,
to grow, you need to be able to walk

towards your pain and suffering,
cuz that's where the key is.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

So that aha moment was definitely
built in the fact that I now

started to embrace discomfort.

Everything that I didn't want to do, I
would write down and say, I'm doing that.

I'm going for that rock,
I'm going for that workout.

I'm gonna start talking about
my emotions and start a podcast

and start doing vulnerability.

I'm gonna do everything that I
told myself I wasn't gonna do.

I'm gonna do it.

Hmm.

Because it's hard and we need to do hard.

Travis Bader: Nothing in life
worthwhile ever came easy.

No.

It's not like you're addicted to heroin.

I find that interesting.

There's always a comparative scale.

There's always somebody
who's got it worse.

There's always something.

You're not, you're never
gonna be at the worst side.

You're never gonna be at the best side.

And I find with the mental health aspect
of it, people do that a lot internally.

Well, it's not like I was
serving in uh, a heavy war.

It's not like I was, I think I've
talked about the, uh, the chocolate

bar guy on the podcast in the past.

Have you ever heard of the
Maggot Chocolate Bar guy?

Interesting.

One guy goes, goes to the grocery
store, picks up a, uh, chocolate

bar and some other stuff he's eaten.

He gets halfway through it
and there's maggots in there.

He's like, oh, that's pretty gross.

Goes to talks to the shop keep Shop
keeps like, ah, we'll give you a refund.

You can have a free one if you want.

He's like, I don't want a free ones.

Probably got Megas in a too, right?

Fair enough.

Goes home.

But then he starts developing reoccurring
thoughts and he's dreaming about this

Ty Chocolate bar and he stops going
to his church group cuz he figures

everyone's gonna be laughing at him.

He's the chocolate par mega eater.

Right.

And he's displaying all of
these symptoms that are.

What is typically associated with PTs
D, but he's eaten a chocolate bar with

maggots, and I've eaten maggots, right?

I've eaten, I've eaten bugs and
grubs and worms and crap, right?

Like, hey, that's nothing.

Is it nothing for him?

Well, maybe he has a predisposition to
effect to look at things differently.

Maybe his upbringing causes him to
look at things in a different way.

Maybe his brain ticks
a little bit different.

The psychophysiological effects of
what happened to him are manifesting

in a way that is a concern.

I think one of the most critical things
that people can do for themselves,

and if we're talking about Men's
Mental Health Month, is be able to

recognize when things aren't ticking
properly in themselves or in others,

so they can have that conversation.

And not to discredit it and say,
well, it's not like I'm a soldier.

It's not like I'm, you know,
Nathan, he's rcmp seen some horrific

things, and these circumstances,
I shouldn't be feeling this way.

I'll just shuffle it under the carpet.

I think the best thing people can do is be
able to recognize and then take steps to

address, not wear it, not say, this is me.

Now look at, I recognize there's a
problem, and this is, I'm always gonna be

Bob with a P T S D or, or what have you.

But just realize, who knows?

I don't know.

Maybe my brain ticks a
little bit different.

Maybe my upbringings a
little bit different, but my

reaction to these stressors.

Are manifesting themselves in
a way that requires attention.

Nathan Kapler: The, and this is a
really fascinating thing, a topic for

me because I did this for many years.

I sat and I tried to assess myself and
I didn't know how to assess myself.

So naturally, when we don't know how
to assess ourselves or where we're

at in our journey, we've talked a
little about about, you know, when

we're healthy, we can kind of figure
out how to stay in that bandwidth.

When we become unhealthy, we don't
really know how to get back, right?

We might need some help
at some point, right?

If we go low enough.

But in those stages, I think, I
think at certain points when we

really start to get unhealthy, we
almost start to compare, where am I?

And we look at others and we see
what they're doing, and then we

compare ourselves to them and
their story, oh, you know what?

I'm doing pretty good, cuz that guy
seems a little bit more messed up.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe I'm actually okay.

And we tell ourselves that lie, right?

And we compare.

Comparing is the worst thing you can do.

Mm-hmm.

Your life is not his and vice versa.

So you've gotta challenge yourself
in those moments too, to really kind

of hone in on, on that narrative
that happens, that wolf right, that

comes out, that tries to say, Hey,
you don't have to do the hard work

here cuz that guy's more messed up.

You're good.

Just don't get there.

What does that do?

That doesn't nudge you forward, that
doesn't hold awareness, that doesn't

push you in a direction of growth.

It lets you stay stagnant.

Mm-hmm.

Now your knife edge is dulling
and you're not doing anything.

You're not heading in the right direction.

It's a very, very dangerous place to
be, to compare yourselves to others.

I get a lot of feedback
on social media now.

A lot of amazing people write in.

They say, Hey, you know, I, I
don't even know how you do this.

I don't know how you get on a podcast and
talk, you know about your mental health.

How do you do that?

That's amazing.

Blah, blah, blah.

I could never do that.

Sure, you could.

How does that make you feel?

The stories you hear that roll
in, you see, and you hear the

members who are just, they're done.

Hmm.

I've had guys write in say, I'm, I'm done.

Hmm.

I'm looking to hang myself.

Mm-hmm.

I can't do this anymore.

It's too much.

They hurt.

Sure.

I'm sad.

I get that message.

I'm sad.

Mm-hmm.

I'm sad for that guy cuz I
know what that feels like.

And a big part of why I launched
this podcast too, is that, uh, there

was a female member in Richmond that
took her own life under a bridge.

Mm-hmm.

Same day.

A Winnipeg member took his life.

And I remember that news came
in, I was in the garage, I was

just about to have a workout.

I cried, cried my eyes out, and I
thought to myself, how did this happen?

How, how are so many amazing
people out there killing

themselves at such a large number?

And it's so hidden in society.

We don't talk about this stuff.

We don't talk about law
enforcement suicide.

Mm-hmm.

Don't talk about first responder suicide.

We barely even talk about
just civilian suicide.

Right.

So what's going on here?

Why are we avoiding this?

And I had this moment, it was kind
of an epiphany of sense too, where it

was a motivator for me because enough
people had said, Hey, start a podcast.

Start a podcast, start a podcast.

And I thought, yeah, you know what?

I don't wanna see someone else
take their life and we gotta

start talking about this stuff.

And we gotta create a culture.

If the police organization or whoever out
there cannot create a supportive culture

inside their working lines to show that
empathy, to show that compassion, to

be leaders, to say, Hey, you know what?

We're all here.

We're all going through the same stuff.

Our people will kill themselves
and there will be no stop.

And that was also a big motivator for me
too, to get on and just start sharing.

Cuz I understood su suicide to a degree.

Hmm.

I knew why it happens.

The pain and suffering becomes too much.

It's like addiction.

You gotta find a a way out.

Right?

Whether the addiction solves that
problem for you, or the suicide solves

that problem for you, but you're
now gonna look at harming yourself.

You're healthy, you
will not harm yourself.

Mm.

You are unhealthy.

You will.

So for me, that when I hear
these stories roll in, And

that's a really good question.

Trav, I'm heartbroken at times.

I'm completely ecstatic for others
at times because they're on the

journey now of they're saying, Hey,
I'm getting into law enforcement,

but I'm gonna take your advice.

I'm gonna go see a psychologist day one.

So we have this, this barometric kind
of measurement of where am I smart?

So as soon as I start to slip, I
got someone there to hold me, right?

So I'm not falling off the bridge alone.

Right?

And I advocate that a lot
in, in first responder work.

We know that it's stressful,
we know that it's hard.

We know that you're gonna see a lot
of hard things walk into it with

the vulnerability and walk into
that psychologist office day one

and say, I have no idea what I'm
gonna see or what I'm gonna do.

I want to check in though and just talk
so that you can get to know me so that you

can hold my hand and keep me on that path.

Cuz if you fall off and you will, if
you don't have these right supports in

place, it's a hell of a ride to come back.

Travis Bader: You'd almost think
that this is something that

the department would initiate.

Nathan Kapler: I sat down with the RCMP
last year, last year after podcasting

for a while and I said, listen boys,
um, I actually emailed someone quite

high up and I just said, you know what,
what is your, what is your strategy

here for mental health for our people?

And they took my meeting.

Which is rare.

Mm-hmm.

And I sat down with them.

I'm not gonna name names,
that's not how I roll.

Hmm.

But I just said, you know,
what's the strategy here?

And it was, it was classic rcmp.

Well, you know, we've got a few ago
Agora courses coming out on the computer.

We're gonna talk a little bit
about suicide and we're gonna do

this, that, and the other thing.

And you know, we're starting to
talk about it more in Depo and

blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, awesome.

Is that enough?

Hmm.

Do we need to do more?

And what does that really establish?

What does that really do for
continuing to invest in our people?

So there's massive gaps in there.

Mm-hmm.

Massive gaps in there.

And what I like to see from a lot
of the people that are out doing

this now, they're talking very
openly about their experience.

Sat, uh, Sean Taylors, uh,
all these guys like yourself.

You're here in the space too, right.

Slowly starting to get into this, you
know, talking about all this stuff.

And we're all saying, Hey, like
we've been through some stuff.

These are the lessons we've learned.

Um, if the organization isn't
going to be there to help us to

succeed, we'll just do it over here
and we'll give you that option.

Right.

Because you'll need it
eventually in the organization.

The organization, not to blame them.

I think the organization
has their own challenges.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think they fully
understand the problem.

And that's not to cast
shade or blame on them.

Right.

It's just the way it is.

Mm-hmm.

They're too big.

There's too many people.

They have so many moving

Travis Bader: parts, they've
outgrown what they originally were.

Nathan Kapler: Absolutely.

You know, is funding, is the
funding enough for these programs

Are the right people involved?

Right.

It's, it's an incredibly
complicated story.

So for us who are kind of, you
know, we get to jump on as men and

just showcase, you know, here's,
here's how we view this issue.

We get to just do what we want to do
so we can talk about this stuff and we

can, you know, help others in ways that
the RCMP can't, it's too big of a beast.

Any kind of change you want to
create in that organization.

Even when I was a mounty took years.

Mm.

They dropped a tie at one point.

We used to wear the tie.

Yeah.

It took years to drop that thing.

Yeah.

If you, if it's gonna take you
years 10, 20, uh, 15, was it

15 years to get the carbines?

Something like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To get a gun.

Yeah.

15 years to get a gun on the street
that was recommended from Math orp.

How long

Travis Bader: is it gonna be before
they get a proper programming

in place for mental health?

It'll be a while.

Nathan Kapler: It may never be.

It probably will never be.

And this is, this is the interesting
thing too that happens with mental health.

As we're evolving in society and we're
starting to have different shifts in how

we perceive things, mental health and,
and inclusivity and all these different

things, the goal poster always changing.

Mm-hmm.

So how does an organization stay
up with the needs that are current

to what's going through society?

Oh,

Travis Bader: particularly, particularly
when they run a 15 year cycle

on, on adopting new information.

Right.

So, I know you've got a phenomenal
bear story, but before we go to this

bear story, is there anything else
that we should be talking about?

Questions for me?

Things that you think would
bring value to the listeners?

Anything that would bring
value to the 10 33 podcast?

Nathan Kapler: Uh, you
know, I, I'm much like you.

I asked you a question, I was
like, how's your podcast doing?

And you're like, ah, I don't know.

And that's, that's where I am too.

Like, there was, there was a
period when I started podcasting

where I was like checking all the
time and I was like, oh, yeah.

Numbers, numbers, numbers.

Yeah.

And then you get to a point
and you're like, yeah, I'm

just gonna show up and do this.

Yeah.

I don't care.

Yeah.

People, people that will want
to join, people that will see

the value, they'll show up.

That's it.

Period.

Right.

Much like Field of a Dreams, if
you build it, they will come.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And you stop putting that
pressure on yourself.

Right.

Perfection, all that different stuff.

But I think for me, like one of the
big things, and we, we loosely talked

about this, but how did you end up here?

Because this started off as more of
a, a Silvercore Hunting Exploration

podcast, and now we're sitting down
here, men's Mental Health in June, and

we're having this conversation, this open
conversation about men's mental health.

How did you end up here?

Travis Bader: Well, for me it was,
I had to pick a category for the

podcast in like the iTunes chart.

And so I think we're under Wilderness
is where we're at, but Silvercore has

always been more of a nebulous creature.

I called it Silvercores after my
grandfather, silver Armo, who is a

Vancouver police officer, my other
grandfather, Cornelius Bader, who is

an entrepreneur, owned a large bakery
in by where the criminal Croatian

cultural center is around that area.

Um, and I figured if I call it something
nebulous, it'll allow me latitude to

be able to work in varying places.

It's worked well for the company.

And I thought, I'll do
the same for the podcast.

And I don't monetize a podcast
except for pressing that little

accept money on, uh, on YouTube and
you make a couple dollars a month.

It's nothing, nothing's to write
home a but it allows me the latitude

to talk about whatever it is
that's gonna be of interest to me.

And I'm not always gonna be talking
about, my background is firearms and

the outdoors and, but, you know, I'm
also, I enjoy surfing and I, I enjoy

mountaineering and I'm there, there's a
wide gamut of things that I enjoy, and

I don't want to be the, the Paragliding
podcast, the, so the scuba diving podcast

or whatever, that one little niche,
if I could keep it as the Silvercore

podcast, I can talk about whatever.

And I specifically looked at this because
a friend came in and said, you need,

every business should be a media company.

They need the ability to
disseminate information so

people know what's going on.

They need to know the
owner, they need to know.

And there was a lot of
negativity in the industry.

I mean, there's negativity
surrounding firearms in media.

In social media, you get
shadow banned or banned if you

talk about guns and firearms.

It's a low barrier to entry industry.

It's gonna attract people from all walks
of life who may let their ambitions

exceed their morals or ethics and do
things that are, uh, pretty damn slimy.

And I've been affected by that
in a pretty, in a pretty big way.

On more than one occasion.

I thought, you know what?

If I'm not seeing the positivity that
I want to see in the industry that

I'm working in, what are my options?

I can leave?

Oh geez, I've never been the type
of guy to turn around and leave.

I've never been a guy to
shy away from a fight.

I'm stubborn.

Right?

I can try and create that
change that I'd like to see.

And so that's where the
Silvercore Podcast is born.

I wanted to do something where I can
bring value to the listeners that

can bring, bring value to the guest.

But selfishly, it brings value to
me, cuz it allows me to connect with

others who are positive and moving in a
direction that's gonna be beneficial to

themselves and everybody else around them.

So that's the nuts and bolts of where
the Silvercore Podcast came from,

and it never started as something
that's gonna be making money.

And it still isn't
something that makes money.

I don't begrudge somebody who wants
to monetize a podcast by all means.

And in fact, a very smart friend of mine,
much smarter than myself, as Travis,

you should monetize a podcast because
it says your opinion is worth something.

It's worth this much.

And other people agree,
interesting approach to it.

Maybe I will at some point.

That's just not where my head's at my
head is that how do I look at my current

challenges that I'm experiencing, my
current passions that I want to share,

and move through them with others who
have either on the same path or further

along the path and share that with others.

That's, that's it for me.

Nathan Kapler: So for and for you, and I
mean, this is something I've also grown,

uh, very accustomed to, is also listening
to others and their approach in life

and, you know, what has worked for them.

So obviously as I sit here and
showcase kind of, you know,

this is Nate, this is his story.

That's what, this is what's worked for me.

You know, what, what is your, what is
your ever encompassing approach to mental

health and how do you stay Well, because
that's also as equally as important.

There's gonna be people that listen to
my story that are like, Hey, I'm more

of a, I fit in with Camp Nate, right?

Mm.

I'm there.

But what about Trav?

Like, what about you?

Like, how do, what's your
approach to mental health?

You know, what's gotten
you through the hard times?

Travis Bader: I would say that
dogged determination and stubbornness

have probably been the driving
factor for me through hard times.

And I mean, I remember
individuals coming up.

I mean, people can google some of
the difficulties I've come up with

in the past, just being in this
business and low barrier to entry

industry and others looking and
saying, I think there's money there.

And that's, that's the
thing that you look out for.

If there's no money coming into a company.

People do some pretty weird things
if there is money coming in or

the perception that there could
be money coming in, watch out.

Cuz that's the amplifier
of human imperfection.

Mm-hmm.

It's, money is not the root of all evil.

That's a misquote.

I think the proper quote is for the
love of money is the root of all evil.

For people who, that's the, their
striving thing that they're looking for.

It can amplify some pretty interesting
things, which has caused the business to

come under fire from others who would like
to compete but don't have the ability,

mental capacity, ethics, whatever it
might be to do it on their own accord.

And they would rather try and steal
it, go about it in a way that's

gonna be, um, Negative, I guess.

And you wouldn't find that so much
if you're a doctor who's gone to

school for X amount of years and
there's a process in place or a lawyer

or some other professional where
there's an agreed sort of process.

But in an industry that's low barrier,
it can attract all different types.

So dealing with that negativity
has always just been dogged,

stubborn, determination combined
with exercise, which has been huge.

The outdoors, it's been massive for me.

Getting out in nature, connecting with
your natural environment, it's why I hunt.

I don't hunt because I need the meat.

I mean, you can go to the grocery
store, you can get your meat.

I don't fish cuz I need to get fresh fish.

You can do that.

I do that because there's an
intimate connection with nature

and there's a massive mental
health benefit to being out there.

If I'm hunting, I'm hearing noises
that most people don't hear.

I'm smelling things, I'm seeing things.

I'm paying attention to different
things that most people aren't

gonna be paying attention to.

And it brings the level of presentness.

If I'm out surfing, I'm out in the
ocean, I'm away from everybody.

If I'm climbing, I'm out in the
rock face, I'm doing my thing.

And my thought process is in each and
every handhold, what, whatever I'm

making, um, that would be my approach.

Exercise, get outdoors.

And that's substance abuse.

Limit, whatever it might be,
addictive things, whether that's

social media, cuz that can just
wreak havoc on people's perception.

Cuz it just creates a, an oodle
loop of comparison, observe,

orient, decide, act of comparison.

And of course that quote,
comparison is a thief of joy.

Where am I leveling compared to everybody
else out there and alcohol limit any

of these things, unhealthy foods.

That, that would be my approach.

Nathan Kapler: And alcohol
too is one thing that, again,

I didn't really flirt with.

Well, I guess I did flirt with this
a little bit where I started to

go down potentially a path where
it could have been an issue, but

it, it didn't quite get there.

Uh, and it's something that even
with, uh, my journey into medical

cannabis, I don't drink anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Alcohol is the biggest
celebrated poison in society.

Massive.

Wh why, why would we do this to ourselves?

Like if you're on this, this journey of
growth and betterment and improvement

and, and trying to find out, uh, you know,
where this could go for you, you have

to be ready to drop those things mm-hmm.

That give you that instant gratification.

Travis Bader: And it's got
a after effect on it too.

The immediate effect is, Hey, I
feel great, but that only lasts

a very short period of time.

Days afterwards, you'll notice
that your perspective has changed.

And I've been pushing very hard in
some different areas of business.

And personal development
for a long time now.

And about a year ago
I said, you know what?

I'm just gonna turn the taps off.

Let's see what, let's see what I can do.

Let's see what I can achieve if I
just put a hundred percent dedication

towards these different endeavors.

And it's amazing what you can
achieve when you start putting the

blinders onto those distractions.

Nathan Kapler: So in, in total personal
story here, uh, my wife and I, we've

been building, um, I'll just call it
stuff and things for years, right?

Opportunity.

Sure.

Creating opportunity for ourselves.

Very much like you.

I knew when I was going through the
mountains, going through some hard stuff,

I was like, oh, okay, I don't think
I'm gonna make it to 25 years here.

I was like, I can't run the marathon.

It's just not possible.

So what do I do?

I gotta create opportunity for myself.

Do I become an entrepreneur?

Do I invest?

Do I do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I chose a path and
I stuck to that path.

And very much like what you're saying
here is that the moments where I deviate

from discipline or I allow myself to
pursue that instant gratification, I

automatically see the mind shift into a
place where it can't handle the stress

of making those big decisions that are
very complicated because there's a lot

of money now tied up in what we're doing.

We've grown to a point now
where it's, it's big, bigger.

Sure.

Right?

And you gotta stay sharp.

You gotta make sure the mind is sharp
so that you can weather this storm.

Because as you're growing and you're
doing all these different things,

running a business is very hard.

You gotta have thick skin, you gotta be
ready for the storm that's going to come.

There's gonna be at least one that's
gonna come for you when you're running

this business at some point, and it
has the potential to make you fold.

How do you get through it?

How do you handle that stress?

And if you can cut these things out,
and this is where I really love to

have this conversation about men now,
is how do you keep that knife sharp?

You have to drop these things.

You have to, and that's
what it's taught me.

Getting into sobriety
was absolutely beautiful.

I don't identify as a person that
has an addiction issue anymore.

Sure.

Right.

It's done.

I'm not Nate the addict.

I'm Nate now you know this.

Mm-hmm.

Growing and building and
doing so many cool things.

And to build on what you were saying
about dropping that alcohol or dropping

those, those behavioral patterns, they can
launch you into a place that you're not

even really aware of where you could go.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm sure you've seen that cuz you
just told me like, Hey, the growth that

I've had here because I've walked away
from so many things, has been phenomenal.

Mm-hmm.

Invest in yourself.

And maybe we're just getting older, right?

We're in our forties.

Yep.

Right.

So are we at the tail end of life, not
the tail end, but hopefully still at some

of the good years that we have, right?

Sure.

I'm 38.

Yep.

I'm starting to get close to that point
where I'm starting to really reflect

on, okay, how much time do I have?

Hmm.

Right.

You're looking at blocks of 20 years.

First 20 years you run around crazy.

You you do, you do your thing.

20 to 40, you're trying
to get life established.

40 to 60.

Those could be it.

Travis Bader: See, my family never
thought I'd live past, well, at first I

think it was 12, I'd never make it to 12.

I I Congratulations.

That's right.

That's quite the bar to set.

And then it was 18.

He is never gonna make it to
18 and made it pass there.

From my perspective, the concept of
mortality never even entered into

my ADHD brain until having kids.

Yeah.

And kids are, of course, they bring
that concept of mortality to a focal

point and you realize, well, I'm just
not living for myself anymore cuz live

or die, I could care less have kids.

Okay, maybe I should be around
here a little bit longer.

Nathan Kapler: And you,
you as a man have a choice.

I got three kids, uh, a daughter who's
six, a son who's two, another son

who's one, and I sit with them now.

And when you hold your
kid, it's a timestamp.

Mm-hmm.

Because you look at them and you go,
how much time do I have with you?

Mm-hmm.

And what's really important
here is having a drink.

Important.

Mm-hmm.

Or is doing something for myself so that,

so that I get enough time
with you so I can see all the

amazing things you're gonna do.

Mm-hmm.

You've got to pick your poison in life.

You really do.

Yeah.

And it's, it's, you know, I don't
wanna say in addiction, my kids

saved me because I saved myself,
but my kids really did help.

Show me the way

Travis Bader: you have to make a decision
as a father, as a mother, as a parent.

What kind of a parent do you want to be?

Because you know you're
gonna make a carbon copy.

There's gonna be a certain
level of carbon copy that's

gonna come out in your children.

They're gonna choose their own path.

They're gonna do their own
thing, but they can't help but

imprint in some way or another.

I made the decision at a
very early age with my kids.

I'm never gonna lay a finger on them.

Physical abuse.

Physical punishment was a
common thing back in the day.

A lot of people know this.

I've experienced it.

I said, I'm never gonna
lay a finger on them.

Yeah.

Why?

Because if I hit them, I give
'em a smack, I punch 'em.

Is that gonna tune 'em up?

Maybe, what if it doesn't?

Do I have to punch harder?

Where does it stop?

Why even go down that road to begin with?

That was the number one
thing I made a decision of.

The number two thing was I'm
going to give them the ability

to have agency in their own life.

So they're calling shots
from a very early age.

Now those shots might not
be super consequential.

Do you want to go to bed now or do
you wanna go to bed in 10 minutes?

Right, you're still going to bed.

Here's what I'd like to see you do.

But I am open to reasonable persuasion.

It's never do what I say cause and
allows 'em to be able to articulate

reasons why they might want to do
things differently or develop a

thought process and give them power.

Basically empower the children.

Those are a couple things that I
looked at and I figured if we can

break that cycle and bring in a
healthy human being into this world

and hopefully not mess 'em up too much.

And that's a funny thing cuz everybody's
gonna have issues from childhood.

I have a friend, he had the best parents.

They were fantastic.

And when he got to be in his,
uh, late teens, early twenties,

he was resentful of them.

Like, what the hell your parents are
loving, they're caring, they're providing,

they're there for you all the time.

He's like, they made my life too easy.

I haven't had the challenges that, uh,
would, would form me into a better person.

That was his level of
resentment and his problems.

Okay.

Fair point.

I, I can see at that age, I
was like, you're an idiot.

Right.

Um, but okay.

I guess everyone's gonna
have different challenges.

It's not for me to judge.

Um, but at least there's a couple
things that I can do with my family

to work through to ensure that
there's certain things that are

gearing them up for the best success.

Nathan Kapler: And I to, uh,
identify with, you know, my

upbringing and what I saw Hmm.

As a child growing up where, you know,
those, those different concepts were used.

Sure.

North, Northern Alberta in the
eighties, things were different.

Right.

Men had a certain way of being a
father that was kind of normal.

Sure.

Right.

And it wasn't until, I remember
when I came to BC and this whole

liberal mindset, I'm leaving the
conservative prairies for the liberals.

Right.

And everybody's so open and
hugging and talking and, you know.

Mm.

I just, everything was just so open and
everybody had this open-minded view of

the world and I kind of just stood back
and I was like, this is interesting.

Hmm.

Because this totally
clashes with what I believe.

That's what travel does for you though.

Travel ab, right?

Breaks the barriers down, opens you

Travis Bader: up to different
ideas and perspectives.

I was always raised, raised,
this is the only way to do it.

People that do it outside this,
they don't know what's going on.

They're stupid.

You travel and you say, huh, these
people seem to be doing okay.

They're doing things completely
contradictory to how I was raised.

Nathan Kapler: Shocking.

Are my biases getting in the way,
or are my experiences getting in

the way of how I perceive life?

Right?

Yeah.

That's the beauty of travel.

Mm-hmm.

And very much like you.

I know I asked myself some very hard
questions getting into fatherhood.

What kind of father do I want to be?

And especially for me to have a girl.

The first, first kid was a girl.

Mm-hmm.

And she came at a time where I
needed my heart to open up again.

Mm.

I needed to really feel that love again.

And she came at a time where she did just
that the universe unfolds as it should.

Right.

It was a gift.

Mm-hmm.

And that little girl to this
day, I mean, there is you.

You see how daughters are so special.

Sons are special too, in their own way.

But you just see, you see what it does
to you as a man, how it softens you.

My first child

Travis Bader: was a girl,
and that's what I wanted.

And I wanted that because I'm a boy.

I've got a couple brothers.

I know how boys work.

I wanted the challenge of learning.

How a daughter works.

So I figured that would be a
better thing for me as a father.

So that the best predictor
of future performance is

past performance in the fall.

You have to rely on, are
certain past tactics and ideas.

Maybe it's better to start with this
blank slate with a girl worked out well.

Second child is a boy similar to you.

Yeah.

Nathan Kapler: Interesting.

And these, these lessons that you
have no idea that are coming for

you in life are coming for you.

And that's why like, I'm, I wanna make
sure we take the time today to talk about

these, cuz these are very, very important
in the overall kind of, uh, encompassing

theme that we're talking about
today, which is how do you stay well?

Mm-hmm.

How do you care for others?

How do you love them?

How do you have compassion for them?

How do you lead them?

How do you do things to
set them up for success?

This journey is, you know, at certain
points, I think in the journey,

we look at it as a very indivi,
individualistic journey where we try to

amass, you know, success for ourselves.

We then have a family and then we start
to learn about providing for others.

And then we also learn about community.

The value of community.

Making sure that you're also investing
not only in yourself, but your

family and others and the community
around you and the people around you.

And it becomes less individualistic
and, and that's a great place to be too.

I think as young men, we tend to
live in more of an individualistic.

Me, me, me.

I'm more worried about me.

Let's go out and get me, you know,
like, get, let's get what I want.

Travis Bader: Your eyes
are too close together.

I, I,

Nathan Kapler: I, I, I, I, right?

And it, you, you have to go
and put those things together.

But always, always look at
others too and invest in others.

I mean, this, we're, we're here
for a very short time, 80 years.

And we gotta make sure we leave
this place in, in a decent shape.

Travis Bader: You follow Ellen Watts?

Nathan Kapler: No, I don't.

Okay.

Travis Bader: Well, he's deceased.

I think his son puts out some stuff, but
he's, uh, very interesting individual.

Anyways, there's a one talk that
he does and he's says, you know, we

grow up, we go to school, we're told
work hard study, get good grades.

You know, you're getting
this thing's coming.

It's gonna be fantastic.

You get through elementary
school, Hey, it's high school.

That's the next step in the evolution.

We're gonna work hard.

We're gonna get good grades.

High school ends.

We did well.

We're into university or college, or into
trade school, or whatever it might be.

Next thing you know, you graduate that
and you're into your job and starting

at a low level, but working your way up.

And before you know it, all your hard
work and your effort has been put in

and you're, you're now in a managerial
position, or maybe you own the company

and at some point you stop and you look
around and say, where is this awesome

thing that I've been working for?

Where is that thing that has been
promised to me this entire time that

I keep on striving for the next level?

And he says, you've been lied to.

The whole process is like a musical.

You're supposed to sing and you're
supposed to dance along the way.

Nathan Kapler: When I became a Mountie,
I walked through the halls and I saw

the older boys and I took a look at
them and I said, where are you in life?

Are you happy?

Comparing, probably shouldn't
have done it, but I did.

And I saw a lot of older mounts,
bitter negative, filled with

cynicism, probably doing some things
they shouldn't have been doing.

Hmm.

And I always thought in that moment, how
the hell do you get to that place where

you give up your morals or you give up
your passions in the pursuit of what?

Promotion?

Money.

Political status.

Ego.

Ego.

What's driving that?

Do you really want to be here
when you're on your deathbed?

Is this the way you want your story told?

And I've always tried to remember
that there was a time where I

chased the carrot on the stick.

Mm-hmm.

And I never got close to it.

It was always just outta reach.

You're always chasing that next step.

How do I get closer?

You never really do.

And I think for me, one of the
biggest moments of growth too that

happened for me was when I finally
recognized that my identity was so

wrapped up in being a police officer.

That it was the very thing
that I needed to give up

and I needed to let go in order to grow.

And I made that call and
that's when I retired.

And I equate it to a moment where I
didn't have much of a backup plan.

In 2021, I had this delusional
thought of, Hey, I should start a

podcast cuz that's gonna be great.

And there was no money in it.

I knew that, but I knew that what I would
get back from doing this in a different

way was gonna be worth more down the road.

Oh, a thousand percent.

A thousand percent.

And I stood on the edge of that cliff,
and I remember having that conversation

with the RCMP and they asked me, you
know, what are you gonna do here?

And there's a bit of a story behind
this that led me to this point.

But as I stood on that cliff, I thought,
man, oh man, this is, this is it.

You know?

And I think men were, were
here at least once in life too.

I stood on the edge of that
cliff and I, I thought to

myself, I've got no backup plan.

I've got no parachute.

I don't know where this goes.

I don't know if there's a failure that's
coming in that's going to rock my world.

I don't know if this is a mistake,
but I knew I had to jump without

those safety things in place.

And that was one of the most
liberating things where I finally

stood up and I said, I'm not
taking this from you anymore.

I'm moving on.

I'm shunning the door, and I'm
growing from this experience.

Travis Bader: Massive.

So many people live
their whole life in fear.

Fear of what could be around the
corner, fear of what others may perceive

of them, fear of just the unknown.

How incredibly liberating
is that to say, screw it.

I'm doing it anyways, because somehow
it always works out in the end, and if

it hasn't worked out, it's not the end.

Nathan Kapler: What, what that
taught me too was that I didn't have

a great deal of trust for myself.

Hmm.

And I knew in that moment, I had to learn
how to trust myself and the decisions

that I was making because I had been
so set up with this dream of becoming

a police officer and getting that dream
when as a young man and now working

in that black and white world, and
it, it stunted me to a degree, right?

Mm-hmm.

It kills your creative ability.

Mm-hmm.

It doesn't allow you to have that passion.

Right.

Who you, we were just talking
about, what's his name?

Ellen Watts.

Ellen Watts.

Yeah.

That's slippery slope, right?

Of pursuing something that
you think is the answer.

But where does it actually take you?

It wasn't taking me anywhere.

Well,

Travis Bader: I think there's a fear in
people of wanting to give up, be viewed as

a quitter leaving something running away.

When maybe that little shift in
perspective, are you running away from

something or are you running towards
something that's more desirable?

Well,

Nathan Kapler: and I remember making
this call and I immediately, I thought,

I was like, am I gonna be judged?

Like are all of my peers going
to look at this and be like,

oh, Nate is like, he's gone.

Right?

He is not even close
to stable or whatever.

And learning to, to trust yourself
and to take that step and to not

allow that wolf to continue to drive
that narrative for you, taught me

that I'm actually better connected to
these individuals now that I've left.

Travis Bader: I bet you they look
at you and say, damn, I wish I

could do something like that.

Nathan Kapler: So many of them call
me and say how I wish I could retire.

I wish I had the guts to retire.

Mm-hmm.

I just can't.

I'm not there yet.

And they stay stuck.

And

Travis Bader: you work to
retirement age and then what?

Maybe you die the next week,
maybe you'll live on further.

But how was that time in between
that you spent, was that worthwhile?

Did that bring you

Nathan Kapler: happiness?

And not even just, well, yeah, happiness.

I mean, in the pursuit of happiness,
that's a totally different topic we

could talk about for hours, right?

Like

Travis Bader: that's an
oxymoron unto itself.

You cannot pursue happiness.

You can't.

No, it's fake.

Yeah.

If you pursue happiness and it's
always gonna be outta your reach.

In the same way with the, my
business, I've always said, I'm

not gonna look at the money.

You ask it with the
numbers in the podcast.

I don't know.

I mean, once in a while I've looked
at like charitable and stuff,

Hey, we're raking on the top 10.

This is great, right?

But what, what's the money situation?

I don't know.

The accountants will let me know if I
can buy stuff or shouldn't buy stuff.

I mean, if I chase something that drives
me, that I'm passionate about, that brings

other people value, money's gonna be a
natural byproduct of that happiness wound.

Sue

Nathan Kapler: and I learned
that very early on too.

You know, what are your motivating
factors to get where you're going?

If you let money be the driver of
that bus, it's not gonna go well.

Travis Bader: I mean, some people sure
that that's your thing and maybe that's

what brings them happiness, but I think
for the majority of people out there,

that's an empty, very hollow victory.

Nathan Kapler: Yeah, it really is.

Um, so yeah, men's Mental Health
Month, here we are, June, we

just covered a ton of stuff.

But again, this, this, this jump from the
cliff without having the safety net and

the fear of taking action and how is it
going to be perceived, those were all very

legitimate thoughts I had along the way.

And sure they could have
stopped me from jumping.

I could have answered or at least
acknowledged that, and took,

took action from that place.

But instead, I just kept telling myself,
no, just you don't understand this.

Retire, you're done.

I talk about it on the
podcast as to why it was done.

Hmm.

Right.

I, I knew it was done and I jumped.

And what I found again was that the
connection that I had while I was

a police officer to other police
officers wasn't as good as it is now.

Mm-hmm.

I'm way better connected
now with my buddies.

We have way deeper conversations.

We talk like this, we talk about life.

What are you struggling with?

What's going on?

Mm-hmm.

How hard is it?

It's okay.

Get it out.

Right.

Police o and police officers hate
talking about their emotions.

Right.

They're not scared of anything
except for their own emotions.

Totally.

Right.

Men too.

Yeah.

So, and what has this done for myself?

You know, what kind of opportunity
has this created for myself?

And I mean, when you take these,
these jumps, these fearful jumps,

they create the most amazing growth.

My life since leaving has just continued
to grow in so many different ways.

I do not regret leaving
at all at 14 years.

I know a lot of people say,
how did you leave at 14 years?

Don't you feel sad that you don't
make it to 20 or get a full pension?

No.

Hmm.

I'm happier.

Awesome.

I'm good.

I'm pursuing what I want to pursue.

My, my life is rich.

That's

Travis Bader: amazing.

Do you have a bear story you want to tell?

Oh,

Nathan Kapler: do I ever, let's hear this.

So before we talk bears again,
hunting, beautiful thing.

Uh, again, in, in my story
too about mental health, you

know, what are the, some of the
things that I did to get better?

Uh, I had to learn how
to reconnect with people.

Hmm.

But another part of this too is I had
to learn how to reconnect with nature.

Right.

And that's where hunting comes in.

Hunting is something phenomenal for us.

We've been doing it for hundreds of years.

It's hardwired into us.

Mm-hmm.

We go out, we get the fresh air,
we walk around, we're moving the

body, we're paying attention.

We're living in the moment.

We're grounded.

We're having these amazing experiences.

I don't hunt to go and get food.

Agreed.

I hunt to go and have an experience
with other people who want to do that.

Right.

Your tribe, you're going out,
you're having an adventure.

You're so well connected.

So well connected.

Mm-hmm.

Ending the night off with a campfire.

We used to do this for hundreds of years.

We're going back to that
more primitive way of life.

Right.

Simple, no phones.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Who doesn't want that?

So, hunting.

Hunting for me too.

I mean, if anyone listens to this Yeah.

Go hunt or go take a walk
in the bush with a gun.

Mm-hmm.

Whatever you want to call it.

It's, it's one of the best
things you can do for yourself

in the science that backs us up.

Is, is there.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

There's so many different aspects
to this, but the bear story, yes.

So I was, I must have been two years,
two or three years into my service

and had started to develop enough of
a, a cocky attitude that I kind of

thought, ah, I'm never gonna get hurt.

Right.

I'm in uniform, I'm in Whistler,
I'm doing the general duty thing.

I get a call one night that a
bear is trying to break into

someone's house in Whistler.

This is very common.

Sure.

Right.

This happens all the time.

Yeah.

In fact, there was lots of
times where I'd go to a call

where a bear was in the house.

He was in the kitchen standing up on his
hind legs with the doors open, grabbing

a box of cereal and chowing down.

Yeah.

Stuff was all over the counter.

These guys, they're smart.

Mm-hmm.

They will find the food and people
were locked in their bedrooms scared.

Right.

Hiding up on the dresser.

Cops come save us.

Right.

We don't know if it's a drunk Ozzie in
town that came into our place or a bear.

We have no idea.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

It could be one or the other.

It is.

Could be one or the other.

Nathan Kapler: Whistler.

Right.

That's, it's Whistler.

So we get this call that one night
there's a bear that's trying to get

into this house and I, I kind of was
at the point where I was just like,

oh, this is just another bear call.

I'll just go show up.

It'll be easy.

I'll, I'll put a couple
rubber rounds in the shotgun.

Cuz we had this Bear Smart
Society, uh, thing where we tried

to save bears lives and not sure.

Kill them.

Yeah.

Uh, and I agree with that.

Sure.

You should try to save the bears.

Right.

We're in their home too.

So I put my rubber
rounds into the shotgun.

I go off to the bear call, I
got a partner with me and I'm

just like, Hey, you know what?

You're gonna be on my back.

We're gonna go clear this property
and make sure the bears taking off.

And this house was
literally on the hillside.

On the mountain.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it was just like, the only part
that was flat to it was the house that

was like on this piece of ground and
like a little bit of like a piece of

like walkway that led to the backyard.

And that's kind of how Whistler is.

So we rolled up and I remember parking,
uh, the headlights are on the front door.

I don't see any scratch
marks on the front door.

I don't see any bear there.

I don't see anything on the ground.

No bear scat.

So I'm like, okay, you know, maybe
the bear was here, maybe he's gone.

Doesn't look like he got in.

Uh, make sure you know,
dispatch, Hey, we're here.

Is the bear still here?

They're talking on the phone
to the person calling in.

Nobody really knows.

Sure.

Nobody knows where the bear is now.

So I said, okay to my partner.

We're gonna get out, we're just
gonna walk around the property, we're

gonna shine our flashlight and make
sure this bear is, has moved along.

And as I'm walking down these steps
at the side of the house, I get to

that spot where there's a very narrow
walkway that's kind of grassed and

there's a bunch of trees on my left.

It's very narrow.

That wraps around the house to the
backyard and I can kind of tell,

it opens up and there's a backyard
portion to this, to this property.

So as I'm walking and it's pitch
black and night, like pitch black.

Mm-hmm.

There's no light there at all.

You can see, cuz my eyes have adjusted to
this environment, but it is pitch black.

So I get to almost the halfway point
of this house and emotion light goes

off and my eyes are now blinded.

Mm-hmm.

I can't see anything, but I can hear
something 20 feet away, dig into the

ground, assume that sprint position.

Mm.

And launch towards you.

Towards me, not away from me.

Towards me.

Whoops.

And you could hear the huffing.

Mm-hmm.

And the grunting.

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, no, this is a
missile coming right for me.

So my eyes are adjusting.

I can't use them.

Fight or flight kicks in this bear.

All I can hear is roof, roof, roof.

As he's getting closer
and closer and closer.

So I can hear this and I can
tell this bear is now outta

the bush, he's running at me.

Everything sounds different.

He's on grass and not.

The forest floor.

Mm.

While sprinting at me and I thought,
I can't even see this thing.

Like I can see this hazy black thing
that's running at me as my eyes are

adjusting and the lights on and I'm
like, I'm not gonna be able to shoot him.

Mm-hmm.

At all.

I got rubber rounds in the gun.

If I shoot him, it's
not gonna do anything.

This is gonna go sideways.

Mm-hmm.

So I literally, I can't turn around
and run cuz I still don't have my eyes.

Yep.

I dropped down almost into almost
like a lunge position and I try

to go, how tall is this bear?

Roughly, where's his head at right now?

Mm.

And I rack the shotgun round and I
think this rubber round is all I have.

I place it parallel to the ground and
pull the trigger and nothing happens.

Travis Bader: Nothing as in click?

Nathan Kapler: No

Travis Bader: click.

Oh safety's on

Nathan Kapler: what's going on.

Safety's on.

Okay.

I nearly lose the contents of what's
inside of me in that moment and I go, no,

I don't have much time here instinctively.

We're pretty good at training.

Yep.

Training on the shotgun.

I quickly click that safety off.

And pull the trigger and just
before that round goes off.

So I had to take my eyes off of the bear
for a second to look down at the gun.

Mm.

Cuz it's now down below me.

And I had to make sure my eyes
are gonna let the thumb hit

the safety to turn that off.

As I turn that off, I look back and I
see the muzzle flash and that bear had

turned his head completely sideways,
opened up his mouth and I saw his white

shiny teeth no open up and start to
come in on my thigh, my left thigh.

And I remember just in that moment
seeing the muzzle flash and his

head turn and I was like, oh no.

I was like, this is gonna go bad.

The body literally shut down
all sensation to my left leg.

Mm.

And it was like, Matt, your
leg gone bud say goodbye.

Literally went through that interesting
one round, came off, hit this bear square

in the head cuz I can remember seeing
the muzzle flash and the round come off

and hit him square between the eyes.

Cuz I saw the tough to hair just go poof.

Yeah.

And that bear did a hard 90
at the last second and took

off into the bush beside me.

Thank God for that.

Never been so

Travis Bader: scared in my life, man.

Yeah, no kidding.

That's a, uh, that's a damn
close encounter with what

sounds like an aggressive bear.

Nathan Kapler: Yeah.

And predatory aggressive.

Very predatory bear.

Very, very predatory bear.

Uh, the amazing story, I love telling
that story because it's just, it's

one of those moments where yeah,
something could have really gone bad and

Travis Bader: that's
ingrained in the mind now.

Nathan Kapler: Yeah.

It's ingrained in the mind.

Like, you know, I, I can better connect
with that story now and really remember.

Okay.

Well it wasn't all like
amazing in the moment.

I was scared shitless.

Sure.

Right?

Like, I thought, oh, this is gonna go bad.

I'm gonna be going home with a
heavily wounded leg, or possibly

facing amputation or something.

This bear, this bear acted
very differently than most

bears I had come across.

Sure.

He was mean.

Yeah.

He was angry.

That's

Travis Bader: a bear that, uh, maybe
rubber projectiles should not be used on

Nathan Kapler: Bingo.

Yeah, bingo.

But it's, uh, yeah, and I mean,
we won't go down a path of, you

know, what my partner should have
been doing in the moment, but, um,

what I will say is, yeah, it's,

Travis Bader: yeah,
like, I don't like bears.

I'm hiding in the vehicle.

Nathan Kapler: Policing is dangerous.

That's all I'll say.

Travis Bader: Oh, man.

I love it.

Nathan, thank you so much for
being on the so cor podcast.

We're gonna have links to the
10 33 podcast in here, and any

other links that will bring you
value or the audience value.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We're

Nathan Kapler: in this together, brother.