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Dr. Ron Hall, professor and pastor, and Peter Englert, pastor, help you delve into 1 John. Understand the context and background while applying this practical book of the Bible to your life.
1 John 4_13-21.mp3
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Peter Englert
00:02 - 00:34
Welcome to the Reading 1st John podcast. My name is Peter Englert and I am here with my friend, Pastor and Professor Ron Hall. Before we get started today, we're going to be reading from 1st John 4, and there's a famous verse that some people quote, and it's verse 18, and there is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear. And so I think some of us may have heard that term, perfect love casts out fear.
Peter Englert
00:34 - 00:47
Before I read the passage, Ron, what's a great way to listen to this passage so that you get an understanding of what John's trying to say before we dive in?
Ron Hall
00:47 - 01:09
Yeah, it's a great verse that interpreted within its context is transformative to our lives. because we can all deal with fear. And fear is pressed in upon us with the conditions of our world. You listen to the news on any given day, the fear of what's going to happen at all different angles.
Ron Hall
01:10 - 01:42
And John comes along and says, if God's love is what envelops us in our Christian walk, Then the love of God drives fear out of us, so we don't have to live in fear. King James uses the word torment, and we don't have to be gripped by it. I love the way it's worded in Proverbs 29, verse 25, that the fear of man brings a snare, but whoever puts his trust in the Lord shall have mercy. This is a place of safety.
Ron Hall
01:43 - 02:15
So John is really bringing us to a place of security In our previous session, we were dealing with having confidence that we're in the faith, and now John is dealing with having confidence that God's love will surround us so that we don't have to live in terror. And a good reflection to bring out an Old Testament passage of Psalm 23 that most of us know well. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. And that's the hope that we have in these verses.
Peter Englert
02:16 - 02:36
Yeah, and I I think that that framework before we even read it is really important. There's also the framework to verse God is a love. So as you hear that there, there's something more deep than just jumping in and quoting that passage. So let's read it.
Peter Englert
02:36 - 02:57
Give some context to what John's saying and then let it apply. So we're going to be in first John four, 13 through 21. And it says this. We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit, and we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
Peter Englert
02:58 - 03:32
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God, and so we know and we rely on the love of God has for us. God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the Day of Judgment because in the world we are like Him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.
Peter Englert
03:33 - 03:50
The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, I love God, yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
Peter Englert
03:51 - 04:11
And he has given us this command. Whoever loves God must also love his brother. You know, before we get started, I think I have a good illustration. Maybe we have to edit this out, but Robert Frost, the great poet, was once asked what he thought about Walt Whitman.
Peter Englert
04:11 - 04:35
And Walt Whitman wrote free verse. There's no rhyming, no tunes or anything. And Robert Frost's response was, it's like playing tennis without a net. And I think that that's probably a good way to look at these verses about God being love and about, you know, perfect love driving out fear.
Peter Englert
04:36 - 04:39
We're not asking this passage to play tennis without a net.
Ron Hall
04:40 - 04:51
No, no. And it's the guardrails there. It's that safety of the the love of God. And you remember from our preaching classes, the dominating theme.
Ron Hall
04:52 - 05:21
So if you were picking out the dominating theme, it's obvious that it's the love of God and the security and safety that it brings for us. But to not live in the love of God and hate our brothers means that we're really not in the faith at all. Also, Peter, and all of us listening, we need to keep in mind the black and white nature of 1 John. Rather than being a bunch of gray, it's black and white.
Ron Hall
05:23 - 05:44
Either you love God and you love people, or you're not in God. Other passages give us some flexibility to work through our issues, but 1 John is really cut and dry. It's like the clip that you sent me a while ago about whether or not the guy is a Christian when he's at the end of reading 1 John.
Peter Englert
05:47 - 06:20
Well, let's kind of dive in. So, you know, not that we're saying the gospel is playing tennis with the net, but, you know, verses 13 to 16, a again, we're seeing a lot of repeated themes, and it's almost like every every five to six verses, you know, John is repeating to himself, hey, you know, because God sent Jesus, and He's the Son of God to die for us. That's the love that we rely upon.
Peter Englert
06:21 - 06:29
What's kind of important about getting this section about the confidence in God's love? What do you think John's trying to tell and teach us?
Ron Hall
06:30 - 07:01
The very thing he laid out from the start of the letter in chapter one, that we've seen Him, we've beheld Him, we've touched the idea that we've tasted, we realize that Jesus is God. And if Jesus is not God and human at the same time, then he's just another person. And that's what makes this so unique in this letter. John drives home the deity of Christ in all of the chapters.
Ron Hall
07:02 - 07:26
And you'll remember back in the beginning of chapter four, How do we know whether one is really a believer? By if they acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God. That's the distinguishing mark of true Christianity. And anyone that claims to be a Christian but does not embrace the deity of Christ is not a Christian at all.
Ron Hall
07:27 - 07:40
That's the defining mark. So John wants to reinforce it. And it runs against the the cultic activity that was taking place in that day. To deny Jesus literally came in the flesh.
Peter Englert
07:42 - 08:04
OK, so that that's really important. I think we can come back to that. But I want to I want to kind of jump down to kind of where the the tension of the passage for us is. And You know, we we talk about God being love and then perfect love drives out fear.
Peter Englert
08:05 - 08:21
Those are probably the most familiar quoted sections of this passage. So, you know, John starts off with this is what the gospel is. We have confidence in what Jesus does. And then he kind of This verse is more rich.
Peter Englert
08:22 - 08:33
It even talks about having confidence in the God with the judgment of God. What is John's thought progression as he moves from the first section to the second section to have this conversation played out?
Ron Hall
08:35 - 09:01
Well, he wants to solidify what true Christianity is. Back to what we were already opening up, that true Christianity is marked in who Jesus is, and John's going to pick it up. that we love because he first loved us, that idea. So what he's embracing is the love that comes through who Christ is as the Son of God and then being our Savior.
Ron Hall
09:02 - 09:14
And he identifies it through the indwelling Holy Spirit. So we know we're in the faith because God has given us the Spirit that enables us to then reciprocate the love that we've received from God.
Peter Englert
09:17 - 09:41
One thing that I think is helpful, just kind of backing out big picture, is I think the audience of First John probably has a little bit more of a religious, legal, legalistic background. So there's this idea like John is talking about God's love. God is. He's also talking about, you know, how that love transforms good works.
Peter Englert
09:42 - 10:18
Um, and and so he's kind of walking this line, and I think if you compare this with Corinthians, so with the Corinthians, there's a totally different issue in that book. They're doubting the gospel. They're kind of adding on to other teachings, and they actually feel like they've attained the spiritual greatness that they can do whatever they want. You know, they're they're causing messes like they're suing each other instead of working out, working out their conflicts in front of everybody there.
Peter Englert
10:18 - 10:44
There's a terrible scandal happening that they don't talk about. And I just think it's important with this letter that is under the general letters that it seems like the audience has a very different problem. So I think we have to be careful because You know, you have to wonder, this is applicable to us, but you also have to wonder what John would say to us before we even jump into some of these bigger topics.
Ron Hall
10:45 - 11:29
Well, chapter one would be a parallel to our day and age of denying sin, and that I'm really not that bad, that I can live with the way that I want, that you can justify any behavior, and it doesn't matter. So chapter one shows us how relevant it is of sin deniers back then and then sin deniers today. Even Christian groups that call themselves Christian do not carry on the standards and principles of what we have here in this letter. And remember there were different types of ideologies that were being lived out.
Ron Hall
11:29 - 11:53
Again, we refer to people denying Jesus came in the flesh, people believing that there's no sin in their lives and they can do what they want. And John comes along with this cut and dry back to black and white as to who is in the faith. You're right, the Corinthians had all kinds of issues going on, but the recipients of this letter in the area of Asia Minor also had their issues going on.
Peter Englert
11:54 - 12:18
And I think that that's important because we see a clear message of the gospel. So in Corinthians, it talks about Jesus' death and resurrection. In 1 John, it talks about Jesus' death and resurrection. What you notice that makes the Bible timeless is that you can read this And it's still applicable for us today.
Peter Englert
12:19 - 12:32
And and so I think that that's important. The gospel doesn't change. Jesus doesn't change. But the way that we communicate about it to the problems, they do change.
Peter Englert
12:33 - 12:48
So, you know, if if people are feeling extra guilty or if people you know, we talk about libertines, they feel like I'm in Jesus. I can do whatever I want. I can eat whatever I want. But, you know, I think that that's why it's important.
Peter Englert
12:48 - 13:03
So let's kind of go to the heart of the passage. Let's start here. So the Greek word that's used for fear is phobia, which is a word that we use. And I actually think it's helpful when we talk about those words.
Peter Englert
13:04 - 13:11
What fear do you think John is actually talking about? Is it general, specific? How would you define it?
Ron Hall
13:14 - 13:39
It's probably impacted by the world. He's already referred to not loving the world, the things that are in the world. And so he's dealing with people being captured by not, first of all, fully embracing the love of God and accepting that and finding comfort in it. Instead, there's a fear that is inflicted upon them with that which is around the world.
Ron Hall
13:40 - 14:05
And there probably was pressure too among them as to who belonged and who didn't, because you had people that went out from us, John said, but they really weren't of us. So I think there's a worldly fear. It deals with not having a fear of death, and I have in the notes about Hebrews chapter two that we don't have to live in the fear of death. So I think there are a variety of layers.
Ron Hall
14:06 - 14:16
I wish I could narrow it down to say, hey, it's just one thing in the context, but I think there are a variety of layers he's getting at. and therefore the application is significant.
Peter Englert
14:16 - 14:45
And I would just add the layer of, because he talks about the Judgment Day, you know, just there is this fear of, am I really in Christ? And I think that that's kind of what you're hinting to and pointing to. Again, I like how you're using layers, and the reason I bring that up is, you know, in Proverbs, it talks about the fear of the Lord as the beginning of wisdom. So in this Old Testament verse, we have.
Peter Englert
14:46 - 15:00
Fear God. And then in this New Testament verse, we said perfect love casts out all fear. Now, I don't want to give the full solution, but there's a lot lost in translation. So I think that's number one.
Peter Englert
15:01 - 15:09
What do you think these authors are trying to say about the Christians relationship with fear with both those verses that seem in contradiction to each other?
Ron Hall
15:10 - 15:22
I think we can be definitive on the application there. The fear. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It's dealing with reverence.
Ron Hall
15:22 - 15:37
And then the other fear is terror. It is an emotion. And so, two different sides. God wants us to have healthy fear, healthy reverence and awe.
Ron Hall
15:37 - 15:50
But yet, The Lord Jesus wants to address the fear in our lives. Fear not, for I am with you. I was reflecting on today's Psalm 46, verse 10. Fear not, for I am with you.
Ron Hall
15:51 - 16:22
Be not dismayed, for I am your God. So in the Old Testament, it was embracing to not live in fear, but then you have the fear that is healthy. Think about Hebrews chapter 12, where it refers to the Israelites coming under the mountain. where Moses went up to get the Ten Commandments, and they were fearful and they were quaking of realizing how God brought down thunder, and they were terrified, said to Moses, you go to speak to him on our behalf.
Ron Hall
16:23 - 16:49
So reverential fear is healthy. One other passage before we dig a little deeper, you have Philippians chapter two, that we work out our salvation with both fear and trembling, for it's God that works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. And so there, with fear and trembling, in other words, a sense of reverence and awe.
Peter Englert
16:51 - 17:12
Well, and even as I listen to you, this is kind of where I love You know, just psychology, I'm married to a mental health therapist. Fear and anxiety aren't always bad. Sometimes they're the actual human reaction. I am afraid.
Peter Englert
17:12 - 17:26
I have a healthy fear of tigers. Like I, I am not going to jump into, you know, a cage with a tiger like that. Just that's dumb. You know, I have a healthy anxiety of that.
Peter Englert
17:27 - 17:40
And I think in some ways, like we we tend to. have it all bad and all good. But I think there's a reference point. And even as you were talking about the emotion, how are we responding to that?
Peter Englert
17:41 - 18:08
I want my kids to develop a healthy anxiety towards fire, towards crossing the street. And I think even with crossing the street, it's, hey, we don't know if a car is coming. We want to make sure that they see us, they pass us, because that car can do damage. And so I think even what you're saying is when you read it in context, I think you have to say, hey, what is the author trying to say, especially about fear here?
Ron Hall
18:09 - 18:22
Yeah. And we'll come at that. But first, clarify a verse that's misinterpreted in all of this. And I'm glad to reinforce the idea of fear being an emotion.
Ron Hall
18:24 - 18:37
Fear is not a spirit. And some people might be shaken by what I'm gonna say, but then that's good for us to grow. They wanna go around and cast out a spirit of fear. And it's not a spirit of fear.
Ron Hall
18:37 - 19:03
Fear is an emotion. What we need to do is be praying for the love of God to embrace our hearts so that we take comfort in Him. One of the verses people will use for a spirit of fear will be out of 2 Timothy chapter one. And Paul said to Timothy, God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
Ron Hall
19:04 - 19:33
Now, if fear is a spirit, then you'd have to say there are four spirits in one verse, because you'd have to exegetically then say the power of love. and a sound mind, you can't interpret one part of the verse one way and the other part a different way. So what Paul is really saying there is Timothy hasn't called us to be cowardice, to be timid and shy, but instead he's given us power and love and a sound mind. Well, that's what's happening here.
Ron Hall
19:33 - 20:00
Rather than live in the emotion of fear, and you brought up a good point before about that day of judgment coming, instead be able to embrace the love of God, then rest our souls. You know, it's the Matthew 11, come unto me, you all labor and heavy laden, I'll give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm meek and gentle in spirit, and you'll find rest for your souls. And Jesus did that for his disciples.
Ron Hall
20:01 - 20:14
They're on the water and they're terrified because of the storm, and Jesus let them know, fear not. Think about The number of times in the Gospels it's fear not, fear not. And that's the assurance the Lord gives us as his disciples.
Peter Englert
20:15 - 20:36
Well, and as we move to the second part, because there's this fruit of perfect love, that there's no fear in love. And another verse that gets misinterpreted is 1 Peter 4.11. I think I got that right. But where it says, where there's love, sin isn't there.
Peter Englert
20:37 - 21:14
I'm blanking on the exact quotation. And what that verse is saying, it's not that love covers up sin, but it's where where love is present. sin is gonna decrease, and that's what we see in this passage. So just to give a quick example, when I love someone at a church and God's love is in me, we're gonna have disagreements and conflict, but what love does is it doesn't cover up the wrongdoing, but it actually helps me engage it in such a way of, hey,
Peter Englert
21:14 - 21:37
I'm gonna tell you the truth with love, So this doesn't go any further. I'm not going to, I'm going to forgive you. We're going to have short accounts where, where, where there's not love and there might be competition, revenge, resentment, that sin is only going to spread farther and farther. But where there's actual love, that's where sin ceases.
Peter Englert
21:37 - 21:39
And I think that that's kind of where John's going to.
Ron Hall
21:40 - 22:03
Yeah, and it's a good parallel with Ephesians 4, where it talks about we're living this out in love. He deals with it in chapter 5 also. We're embracing the love of God rather than embracing the evil that is in the world. And that's Paul's appeal, and it's the same appeal that John has here.
Peter Englert
22:05 - 22:25
So let's talk more about this fruit of, you know, perfect love, because in in the rest of 18, it talks about because fear has to do with punishment. The one who's feared is not made perfect in love. What what do you think John is trying to kind of pull out in saying all of this?
Ron Hall
22:27 - 22:57
Well, you brought it out before about the idea of of judgment, but He wanted them to be able to be at rest. Remember, he talked in chapter two about many Antichrists have gone out in the world, and so there is the evil that is around them, and John doesn't want them to be focusing on that. Instead, focus on who the Lord is. I love it the way it is in chapter 3 also that fits in well with this.
Ron Hall
22:58 - 23:18
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God. And that is what we are. The world doesn't know that, but everyone who has that hope of Christ is pure just as He is pure. So John is reinforcing in the embracing of the love of God within your life.
Ron Hall
23:19 - 23:42
It casts out the torment of fear. You don't have to fear the future of Judgment Day, but you can take rest in the Lord. And we all do that. When we get up in the morning, and rather than the torment of what's going on in the world, instead we meet with the Lord and we embrace the fact that He loves us and He's there for us, and He wants us to come running after Him.
Peter Englert
23:44 - 24:01
We could spend a lot of time and I'm glad the time that we did. And again, I think part of this is we want to help you study the scripture, but closing with verses 19 to 21. Again, this is a very repeated theme. We see God's love.
Peter Englert
24:02 - 24:28
leads to an individual transformation of love in us. But that ultimately is expressed through loving our brothers and sisters. And so, again, John comes back to this theme of if you hate somebody, then that means that God's love isn't in you. I mean, how would you kind of explain just again John's thought progression again that we've seen time and time again?
Ron Hall
24:29 - 25:06
Yeah, in chapter two he was bringing up the idea of Cain and how Cain hated his brother and he became a murderer. And so here is John driving home once again, if you are truly a Christian, if you're truly, back to chapter one, walking in the light as he is in the light, you then have fellowship with one another. So when I'm allowing hate, animosity, resentment, jealousy, to stew within my inner world. It's something seriously wrong with my relationship with God.
Ron Hall
25:07 - 25:24
That's back to the idea that when we get to the end of John, am I really a Christian? Because which of us is perfect in something like this? We're not, we're in the process, but John said, hey, this is what the Christian life is like. You can't live in hate.
Ron Hall
25:25 - 25:40
at the same time that you're saying you love God. They are diametrically opposed. Now we can hate evil, which we're supposed to. We can hate the works of the devil, which we're supposed to.
Ron Hall
25:41 - 26:13
But for fellow believers to live in hatred with one another, it just doesn't fit the Christian walk, which brings us close to home in our church communities. How do we get along with fellow believers? I remember when church wasn't being held during COVID and church switched to online. And I really struggled with that because so much of the gospel is lived out by rubbing elbows with each other, by locking hands.
Ron Hall
26:13 - 26:37
And how do we live out the principles of Scripture of loving one another, forgiving one another, encouraging one another, praying for one another? How do we really live that out without community? And so you can say, well, and I have a person who doesn't go to church at all, except watching online the people he thinks that are perfect. And I said, if you went to that church community, you'd find out that have issues too.
Ron Hall
26:37 - 27:09
So John is saying, look it, you got to live out this Christianity with one another, which reminds all of us, you know, take note right now of someone that you might be in conflict with. a family member, some individual, that things aren't going well, and you need to say, okay, Lord, what do I need to do to help resolve that and face the issue of how I'm getting along with those people? And that's what this verse does for me. It drives home the importance of my relationships with other people.
Peter Englert
27:10 - 27:49
And and I think it's important to kind of bring up to when when pastors make this comment, they go, you know, cable news is discipling us more than the Bible. So like when pick Fox News, CNN, you know, one of the implicit or very explicit messages is if you vote this way, like you're wrong and you're terrible. Can you believe this? And again, You can disagree politically, you can disagree biblically, but there is a moment where you cross the line of hate.
Peter Englert
27:50 - 28:19
And I think one of the most powerful practices that my wife has taught me is you can actually sit and listen to somebody and not agree with them and not say it. Um, and, and I, I think what this verse is reminding us, especially today is like what you said, we're supposed to rub elbows with people that. are diametrically opposed to us. There's Christians that are liberal.
Peter Englert
28:19 - 28:43
There's Christians that are conservative. And that is actually the beauty of the gospel of how do we work this out? You know, you've shared with me and I've shared with you, you know, you have former colleagues that you see things very different on very different issues. And, you know, all of us have had to go back and say, hey, I didn't handle that conversation right.
Peter Englert
28:43 - 29:06
And again, that's where, you know, in First Peter, love covers a multitude of sin and even perfect love casts out fear. If I love this person the way God has loved me, I don't have to be afraid of them. I don't I don't have to constantly feel like I need to correct their views. I can hold them accountable, but I can also know, you know, their heart and life is in God's hands.
Peter Englert
29:07 - 29:26
And there's a whole lot longer we could go with that. But I think that that's kind of the point of of living within our human selves, realizing individuals have free will, realizing they're working out their own faith while also, you know, having the love to have the accountability.
Ron Hall
29:27 - 29:45
Yeah. I like what you said. And it takes us back to chapter one. As we walk in the light, as he is in the light, We have fellowship one with another and walking in God's light exposes what you're referring to and those issues we have with other people.
Ron Hall
29:46 - 30:13
And it doesn't mean we we deny them. I recently had some exchange with a person. I wished I worded it differently and I wish I could take it back and say to them again, but I told to this lady, a young lady, I said, you obviously don't like your job because of what she was doing. And she huffed and puffed, and I should have worded it because I wanted to come back and just say, You know, what's going on?
Ron Hall
30:13 - 30:37
You're obviously not having a good day. You know, is there something that you'd want to talk about? And I didn't handle it well, but that's part of the rubbing elbows with each other. So I think living this out again, walking in the light as he is in the light, that's our part of yielding ourselves to the Lord and driving home that 20th verse.
Ron Hall
30:37 - 30:46
If we say we love God yet hate our brother, them calling us a liar. And, man, we sure don't want to be found among those kinds of people.
Peter Englert
30:48 - 31:13
Well, then the verse closes, whoever loves God must also love his brother. So I, and again, I think there is a debate on whether it's brother and sister, you know, just kind of a thing like that. And, um, just kind of pointing out again, this men and women were reading this together. And I, I think that there was a social order to that without, and we've talked about that even in past podcasts, but.
Peter Englert
31:14 - 31:43
Again, as we close, I think what this passage is really it's reinforcing the larger themes. It's it's practically showing like when we study the character of God, that God is love, that God does have justice there. It's not just a trivial, mindless exercise, but it's actually something that affects us in our everyday life. I'll give you the last word, Ron.
Ron Hall
31:44 - 32:05
Well, and I know we've heard this over and over again, but I think this is a good wrap up for us. It is the vertical and horizontal. The love of God pours into us so that we can, in turn, pour it out. Because if God doesn't fill us with his love, we don't have the capacity to love as we ought to.
Ron Hall
32:05 - 32:30
So God is not asking us to do something that he's not going to equip us and enable us to do. Remember the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace. So the fruit of God's Spirit indwelling us that this verse is dealing with, and we already did in our last time in the earlier verses of chapter four. Well, that love that we have through the Spirit is now needing to be poured out.
Ron Hall
32:30 - 32:58
And when you think you have a low capacity to love, then Lord, here I am, and you're open, you receive the vertical, so we can in turn disperse the horizontal. And isn't that just what Jesus did? He left heaven, and in Philippians chapter 2, he descended down to the lowest of points so that he could have a name above every name. The Philippians needed to get along with each other because of what the Lord had done for them.
Ron Hall
32:59 - 33:04
So we look at this, and we're humbled, and we're just saying, Lord, I can only do it with you.
Peter Englert
33:07 - 33:13
Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we look forward to seeing you next time as we start chapter five.