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The hardest part of achieving a goal is starting. Being sendy means making courageous decisions to try something before you have all of the answers. This podcast will remind you of the remarkable life you are living and will give you new ideas to make your life more meaningful and exciting and give you courage to accomplish your goals by stopping the negative voices in your head and just sending it!
Sherrie Gavin (00:00)
Bruce and I couldn't have children. And we tried a lot of different things. And then it was just like, okay, the writing is on the wall. So we're just going to be us and we're satisfied with that. We're going to be happy with that. And then just a friend of a friend said,
Hey, know, there's these two little girls that are like, you know, they don't really have a home and the guardians are looking for somewhere for them to go. and I just thought, I am not doing wild goose chases. am not doing the whole, I mean, it's a little bit like diabetes when you, when you have infertility, everybody gives you medical advice that they saw on TV, right? And, and you're just like, okay, that's not my body.
Thanks, I'm glad that worked for some celebrity doctor who's telling people to do this, but that's not my body for diabetes. And the same with infertility. It's like, you know, if you eat persimmons, then you're gonna get pregnant. And it was just like, I don't know about that. So I wasn't gonna go on a wild goose chase at all, but I just thought, you know, I'm gonna go be of service. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do some grocery shopping. I'll do some dishes.
I'll make some meals, I'll clean the house and I'll call it good. And the situation was very different. And so at the end of the day, I brought the girls home with me.
Becky Brouwer (01:46)
welcome to the Sendy Mom podcast. I am really excited to be here talking to my good friend, Sherrie Gavin. And we have been friends for a long time. It's probably been like 15 years or something. This was back when we lived in Australia for a few years and Sherrie was over there. She's married to an Aussie.
Sherrie Gavin (02:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Brouwer (02:09)
and has a couple Aussie daughters that we're going to hopefully get to talk about soon. And I'll just explain and tell you a little bit of her background. So she is PhD candidate at the University of New England, Australia. And she earned her undergraduate from SUU, Southern Utah University, as a member of the Phi Alpha Theta History Honor Society.
her work can be found in the Journal of Mormon History, Meridian Magazine, and The Friend, and many more. She has a book called Baptisms and Boomerangs that I own and that I have read with all of my kids. And that's also available at Cedar Fort Press. And she has a memoir titled Turning Pink that I want to talk to you about because I didn't know about this. it's, I guess it's going to be released.
by BCC Press in April 2025. She and her spouse, Bruce, are the parents of the loves of their life. I love that Cheyenne and Elizabeth, who I love dearly too and think they're wonderful. So I am really excited to talk to you today about your life and your story and the kinds of things that you have done that have been sendy.
Sherrie Gavin (03:25)
Awesome.
Becky Brouwer (03:26)
Yeah. So let's start out just by finding out what do you think it means to be a Sendy mom?
Sherrie Gavin (03:32)
think it means just taking hold of every opportunity. and you asked me before what my, what one of my favorite quotes are and I've got a lot of favorite quotes, but Camilla Kimball once said, make the most of every opportunity, right? And so sometimes, sometimes the opportunity is not something that is good for you to do. So I don't think it's just,
every opportunity. think we still have to be reasonable and I don't think she meant to throw caution to the wind. But I think opportunities, I think they really do only come once and I think we do need to grab hold of them. And I think being a Sendy mom is recognizing that spark of something happening and chasing after it. And it might be a service opportunity. It might be just a small good deed. And it might be
hey, I feel really passionate about this project. I think I'm gonna write an essay and see if I can get it published. I mean, or it might be, hey, everybody's going hiking this weekend. I think, and it's a cliff that you're like, I don't know, can I, you know, I think that's it. I think opportunities do come our ways and I think recognizing it and running with it is a Sendy thing to do.
Becky Brouwer (04:50)
For sure, yeah, just jumping into it. Recognizing the opportunities and taking a hold of them. Sometimes I find that the most difficult thing for me is picking which Sendy opportunity to take hold of. And that's, we're all at a different point in our journey of either choosing what we're doing or going for it or.
Sherrie Gavin (05:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (05:15)
rejoicing in what we've done and recycling and doing other things. So yeah. And one of my favorite things about talking to people about their Sendy lives is finding out how that journey has taken its course, what that story has been like for them. So I am super excited to find out what your journey has been and what your story has been. I've been a part of it.
Sherrie Gavin (05:18)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (05:45)
I don't know all of it and I know we don't even have enough time for you to share all of it, but I'm excited to hear some of your Sendy story. So why don't you just give me a little bit of background, tell me about who you are and about your family and all those things.
Sherrie Gavin (06:02)
Okay, well, I grew up actually in upstate New York. And with that, I just I love the diversity I love and I think that really gave me a beautiful curiosity for people being different, you know, we are the way people make spaghetti, everybody does it differently, you know, it's just, and the world is really your oyster and discovering who people are and how they got there. It's kind of just fun. So and I think it's a sense of adventure to see
just how other people live and I think it's a beautiful adventure. So I'm grateful for that. and you know, my parents, especially my mother was very cautious. So with that, I learned to be mindful and careful, you know, and I think everybody is going to say a lot of that about their moms. And it wasn't that my mother said, don't do that. My mother said, think it through before you do it, you know, look both ways before you cross the street.
And I think that's a really important thing is that it's not about hiding inside. It's about figuring out, making a plan and achieving that plan. So she was very good at teaching us to plan and put those things in order. But I was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes when I was, I like being dramatic and saying one year old.
I spent my second birthday in the hospital being diagnosed. So I'm like, well, I was there when I was one. So I don't know what it's like to not be a diabetic. But with that, there's certain realities with that. One is that you can, there was a lot of times when my blood sugar drip so low that it was like, it was the hospital and even then it was like, you know.
Becky Brouwer (07:32)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (07:56)
I wasn't maybe good, yeah, it was close to death. Death was not impossible. And it isn't for anybody, but it just seemed a little bit more on the forefront probably for me growing up. But with that, I learned early on to recognize that some opportunities were gonna be out of reach. And whether it would be because my blood sugar was dipping low or because...
Becky Brouwer (07:56)
Pretty scary.
Right.
Sherrie Gavin (08:21)
you know, I'm not allowed to be a pilot because nobody wants to be in an airplane with someone who might be passing out because they didn't get a Snickers bar, you know. You know, so I'm not going to be a pilot. But with that, you learn your limitations. But I think that's I think that's smart. I think when we embrace that rather than looking at that as a prison, but rather looking at that as a mode for freedom, we know what our limitations are. We can then
Becky Brouwer (08:28)
Right. Yeah.
It right.
Sherrie Gavin (08:50)
run in all the other directions. so.
Becky Brouwer (08:53)
And honestly, I think that's important that we have a focus. Well, like what I was saying before is that sometimes there's too many options and too many opportunities. So it kind of helped you maybe to focus in on some things that you could do. And that's what we really want to do. We want to look at what you can do. Sometimes you have these things thrust upon you, and then you just choose how you're going to respond to those sorts of things.
Sherrie Gavin (09:04)
Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And then I think one of the things my dad used to tell me all the time was, you're just going to have to work harder than everybody else and that's okay. Hard work is good, you know? And what a grateful thing. So a lot of times when I'd hit that barrier, whatever it was, academic, financial, climbing that mountain top or whatever it was, it was like, okay.
Everybody who's gone before me is making this look really easy. And I am just going to have to own that I'm going to work harder and I'm okay to be the one who works harder and I will set an example for the slow people working harder and I'll do it.
Becky Brouwer (09:55)
Bye.
Well, and honestly, comparison is the thief of joy, right? So, mm-hmm.
Sherrie Gavin (10:10)
It really is. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, but I've also really learned with that the privilege of, of, of life, you know, because I didn't, I mean, there are kids who I went to diabetic camp with that sounds so corny diabetic camp, but that haven't had healthy full lives. And so I've really had a privilege of dedicated parents who taught me
how to really look after myself and the privilege of always living in a place where I could get insulin. it sounds, know, even when I was little, I first started testing. used to tell, used to test my urine and then we got blood monitors where you poked your fingers. And now I've got this great, you know, pod. And, and so it's absolutely progressed since I was a kid. But I never, I really hesitate to say, well, it's easier now.
Becky Brouwer (11:00)
Right.
Sherrie Gavin (11:09)
because everybody, right, everybody's body is different, everybody's mind's different, I'm not gonna say that my life is harder or easier than anyone else, but I think having an attitude of gratitude sounds so corny, but it's true. When you can be grateful for whatever is in your path, even like for a while I had to drop out of undergraduate school, because I needed medical insurance. I just needed medical insurance, I needed to get my medications.
Becky Brouwer (11:21)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (11:38)
At the time I was a little bit cranky that I had to work full time for medical insurance, I'm really grateful that I, you know, cause there are people who didn't have that opportunity and just didn't have medication, you know, so I've, I've got to be grateful for medication and for science and for progression. So.
Becky Brouwer (11:51)
Right?
Mm Well, yeah, and it sounds like it's given you a lot of freedom to be able to do more things that you have. I mean, I'm always in awe of you, Sherrie and all the things that you're you're putting yourself into. And, you know, especially within education. And I know that we're going to get a lot more into that. I'm actually interested, though, about how you ended up in Australia. don't I don't remember talking about it before.
Sherrie Gavin (11:59)
Yeah.
yeah, that's a yeah, my husband loves this story. It's really funny. So his joke is that I'm the guest who never left. So I, I, I would never recommend this to a parent now, because as a parent, I'm like, this is crazy. But anyway, I, because I was doing undergrad at SUU So for time, I would drive to Las Vegas, not too far away.
and I would freelance write and cover trade shows and sell my pieces to different trade magazines. So driving back and forth to Vegas as, you know, an 18, 19, 20, 21 year old, you know, now I think, that's not, that's not safe, but I, that's what I did. So, and school did take me longer. So I was a little bit in my mid twenties when, when I did finally get through it, but.
Becky Brouwer (12:54)
Okay.
huh.
Sherrie Gavin (13:15)
But that's one of the jobs that I kind of gave myself. And with that, I was able to score an internship to Australia. and the internship was in Melbourne, which is, it's about a flight wise, maybe an hour and a half south of Sydney. And my supervisor just said, listen, you can't come all the way to Australia and not go to Sydney. And so said, that's great. That's fine. But I've, I'm a smart, but I travel smart, right? My mom's rules, right? All the, my doubts.
Becky Brouwer (13:38)
Mm-hmm.
All
Sherrie Gavin (13:44)
Mom's rules, Dad's rules So said, everywhere that I can tell is a safe neighborhood is way out of my budget. So I just, and I'm a smart girl traveler. So I'm just, I don't know that I can do that. And, and he said, don't you worry. You can go ahead. You can stay with this mate of mine. He's lived back with his folks for a little bit cause he's going back to school. And so you can just go and stay with them. They, they've got a spare bedroom and that was Bruce. So.
Becky Brouwer (14:14)
Wow, I love that! Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (14:14)
So I joke that I'm a mail-order bride and he jokes that I'm the guest that never went home.
Becky Brouwer (14:24)
goodness, that's so fabulous. I love it. And so that's a boy that is actually a beautiful, like romance, a beautiful love story.
Sherrie Gavin (14:31)
Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (14:32)
history has been a big part of your life, right? So it's interesting how there are certain things that are part of kind of your being, right? And they become your passion and the thing that you love most of all. So can you think of what inspired you in the beginning to pursue history and be interested in that?
Sherrie Gavin (14:36)
Yeah.
I honestly, I just was always fascinated with the way people used to do things. And growing up in upstate New York, I mean, we were very close to where a lot of women's suffrage started for the US and we're very close to where the American Revolutionary War took place. so,
And I was fascinated, you know, I lived off, I lived between Oneida and Genesee streets. And so those are Iroquois, also Haudenosaunee tribes, because I looked it up, right. And, but we also lived close to Herkimer, which is named for General Herkimer in the Revolutionary War. You know, there was the Erie Canal song. We went to the Erie Canal every year on field trips. So I think this fascination was probably
Becky Brouwer (15:35)
Okay.
Sherrie Gavin (15:59)
due to my upbringing, the location of my upbringing. But then we travel to visit my grandmother in Salt Lake, and we'd look at the pioneer history and what the pioneers did. And she was the daughter of Utah pioneers. so I think that just always made me curious. How did we get here? It was always my question of interest. How did we get here? Why are we doing this differently than we are doing that differently?
So yeah, that's always just been fascinating to me.
Becky Brouwer (16:29)
Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about curiosity for a second, because I think that a lot of times that is where joy comes from is that curiosity of how did people do things before? And how are we doing them now? And are is it really better? Or was that a better way to live back then and try to understand people and I guess that sociology,
within the history and everything, understanding people and why people do things. And that can be a real inspiration for us to make changes in our lives or to go back to roots and things that people have done before. And I know that's something that you have studied a lot I'm trying to remember, because you did, did you do your master's in Australia or did you get your doctorate in?
Sherrie Gavin (17:22)
Yeah, lots of stuff. I stopped started the doctorate a few times in Australia and it was partly because I was chasing my husband's career. at first, you know, I have brothers who are Eagle Scouts and we always, you know, did the American Scout thing and then I went to Australia and my husband is a Queen Scout.
I always remembered Scouts kind of like ended at 18. If you didn't have your eagle, you didn't get it. And these rules might not be correct. It's just based on my memory. Bruce had a Scout group that went well into his 20s.
So I started to do my original postgraduate work in the history of the Boy Scouts in Australia, because I was just curious as to how we got there. And with that, it was so eye opening. didn't, you know, I didn't realize that it was, you know, it actually started out of the UK. I didn't know that, you know, and so I absolutely loved studying all of that. And because Australia operated a lot like separate colonies
Becky Brouwer (18:17)
Okay.
Sherrie Gavin (18:25)
And for a long time, I mean, not until 1901, it was finally a federated country. And even then, for decades afterwards, they were still independently operated in their states. So there's a very fascinating history. because I'd been raised with Scouting and my siblings, I was curious as to the differences there and just wanted to see.
how it was different and how it was the same. Because I think that's a part of it. I think when you deconstruct things, you also find similarities. And I think that's a way that we can seek for relationships and seek for building and bonding and develop further good from that.
Becky Brouwer (19:09)
Okay, so since you kind of studied a little bit about the Scouts, let's go there for just a second. mean, the Scouts is not a hugely popular program anymore. What are some of the good things that you can see that from that, that would help parents to raise children that were a little bit more of risk takers and a little more courageous?
Sherrie Gavin (19:14)
Yeah.
You know, I don't even know that I say that. I think it's a great way for shy kids to get out and do something different. Because I think when you're shy, tend, mean, nowadays, especially kids just get on their devices and just almost shut down to the rest of the outside world. And I think, I mean, we've all done that, you know, part of it is a, you know, sort of mental health break from reality or whatever. But I think with scouting,
I think it can turn anyone into an adventure. And I think there is something to be said about communing with nature and being outside and hiking and looking at a high horizon that you've had to hike three hours to get to or more and actually just going, I think there's an adrenaline rush that comes from that. And you just go, yeah, this was really worth it because of who I became in the process. Even it was, you know, a short half hour hike or something like that. Sometimes the,
not having all the devices and not having, you know, the naysayers around you or whatever, and just having that peace and calm you in time is, it can be a type of meditation. I know a lot of people meditate with it, but I also think that the unity side of Scouts is a really positive quality. You know, there's no one's left behind, there's partnership in it, everybody's got a buddy.
Becky Brouwer (20:51)
Mm-hmm.
Sherrie Gavin (20:57)
you work together, still, the integrity of staying there when someone's still left behind or going slower than you are, there is an inclusivity that is, I think it's powerful and important.
Becky Brouwer (21:10)
Yeah, no, it's the community. honestly, as long as they're teaching good values, putting your children in anything can be helpful. So often, we're so afraid to expose them because we're worried they're going to learn something wrong or that somebody else is going to have a little bit of control over their learning. That's kind of important. We have to start taking the scaffolding off at some point. And so the scouting problem
program, feel like it's a great place to do that usually. It depends obviously on the kinds of leaders that you have. And so you do want to vet that a little bit because we take calculated risks. And in doing that, we research a little bit more about what that person, the leaders, leadership, and also the tenants of that organization and whether that
Sherrie Gavin (21:45)
Yeah.
Yep.
Becky Brouwer (22:07)
fits with your values and what you believe in. so I think, you know, that was really good discussion about the Boy Scouts that I hadn't even, I had no idea that you had kind of worked on that. So I remember you were working also on the Relief Society in Australia.
Sherrie Gavin (22:14)
Yeah.
yes. Yes. I've done. Well, I did an article, the Journal of Mormon History on the first stake Relief Society presidents. So I did some work on the Relief Society. So the first Relief Society was in organized in Brisbane and a few things like that. But I also just enjoyed that history, you know, because a lot of it was, I mean, it been around since
since the church, well not since the church had been introduced, I think the late 19th century, like I want to say 1898 is when the First Relief Society was there. But I think when you look at the war years, I think that's really, I think that's informative of people and background and the reason we do things and the reason we have certain celebrations and the culture of it as well. And a lot of that is absolutely
maintained and because it was reliant upon women because the men were off to war and then the women were often widowed and so how did the women support each other? So I think there's a beautiful unity in that as well that is an empathetic sort of place to be in and I think sitting with that empathy and seeing what wisdom has arisen from that empathy is important.
Becky Brouwer (23:23)
Mm-hmm.
you
Sherrie Gavin (23:45)
Yeah, so I looked at that a little bit and I was just really lucky to have lived only a couple of blocks away from the first Stake Relief Society president. I thought I was doing a service by visiting her and then it was like, it was so the other way around. I was just absolutely so blessed by my relationship with her that...
Becky Brouwer (24:08)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (24:09)
And she was in her 90s when she passed away, but I just, was devastated. I was like, my friend died just really, but she was in her 90s. Ethel Nash Parton.
Becky Brouwer (24:15)
who I said who I said
Maybe you can kind of explain what the Relief Society is for people who don't understand.
Sherrie Gavin (24:25)
Okay, so the Relief Society, so as a historian, I like sticking at the history of it. So it was an organization that was started years ago the early days of the church. and it was the women banding together to support each other and to support their community. So they were sewing curtains, they were sewing shirts for men who needed shirts.
They also looked after the women who are widows. They were looking after families who were in want or need. And it was just women binding together. And for a time, the Relief Society did close down.
It used to be totally run by women, but it's now, it's because the men call the leaders, it's the men lead them. It used to be 100 % women run. Women nominated each other for president. Women elected the presidency and it was 100 % women run and organized and they raised all their own funds and everything like that. But now it really is a men's organization for women. So.
I struggle with it now a little bit, but that's because I also fantasize about the past and how it was so much more romantic then.
Becky Brouwer (25:27)
Yeah, no, and no, I think that's that's fine to talk about it. But really, it's an organization for women to come together and to counsel together and to minister to each other. Right. And that's that that I mean, that's from the founding. That's what it was meant to be. And I remember hearing somebody talking about the early Relief Society, how they would come to their meetings, and everybody was expected to get up and tell what they did that week.
Sherrie Gavin (25:39)
Mm-mm, yep.
Becky Brouwer (25:57)
to minister to others. if you were like, I just didn't have a lot of time, had this going on, that going on, you were invited to leave. So it was really supposed to be something where people were working, were doing something, right?
Sherrie Gavin (26:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't an everybody in it club. was a, had to work to join. You had to be asked someone to nominate you to be even let in. It was kind of like a sorority really. So, but a sorority of really good service, is, which is fantastic. So, yeah.
Becky Brouwer (26:24)
Right.
Yeah, exactly. Well, that's wonderful.
Becky Brouwer (26:33)
All right, so our Sendy spotlight this week is on Camilla Eyring Kimball. She said, make the most of every opportunity. I love this so much because this is so much of what Sendy Mom is about. It's about looking for those opportunities and making them work for you. So Camilla.
Kimball was the wife of Spencer W. Kimball, who was the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1973 until his death in 1985. So from the time they were married, Camilla had to share her husband with others who demanded his attention, and he had a lot of church leadership positions. When her husband became the president of the church, she knew more was going to be required of her, and this produced a lot of anxiety for her.
She embraced those responsibilities because she is a very Sendy woman. She knew that by supporting her husband and the millions of people they would be speaking to, she would be bringing more light into the world. And so she did it. As a young adult, she was the first of her large family to leave and pursue her education. She had an insatiable desire for knowledge and to learn.
Once she secured a position as a teacher, she is part of her earnings to support her siblings in their education. So Spencer and Camilla's marriage was built on love and economy. They lived through the depression and learned to be really frugal. They enjoyed traveling and dancing. Even though they did not have much money, they were still able to travel, staying in inexpensive hotels and bringing their own food with them. They also were part of a square dancing club.
What a fun, sendy thing to do. So there you go. Camilla treated everyone with respect and love and let them know that they had worth. She never believed herself to be better or worse than anyone else. Once when she was traveling with her husband, she noticed a custodian diligently cleaning and Camilla walked up to her and complimented her work.
letting her know that she was appreciated and that her work was recognized and was important. To her, every role mattered. So I don't really know everything and I'm certainly not an expert at any of the things I talk about on this podcast. I think I know how the world works, but this is really based on my experiences. This is why I am really curious about how other people think the world works.
Understanding other perspectives causes me to either change my opinion or to deepen my understanding or just to understand the other person a little bit better. I love the growth that just takes place with all of this learning. I think it's kind of Sendy to open yourself up to new ideas. That's why I'm really passionate about getting to know other people and learning from them. I was talking to Sherry about Sendy things and she asked me what I thought she should try next.
She said she's planning a trip to Machu Picchu next year, and so I challenged her to make a new friend there. I think one of the things that Camilla embodied was a real vision of each person as someone worth knowing. Everyone has a story to tell and everyone has value. Sometimes people just need to be noticed. So make a new friend.
I'm actually really a pretty shy person. I really struggled making friends when I was a kid. And I remember when I was young, walking around the playground by myself with my hood covering my face so I didn't have to talk to anyone. Making friends really makes you pretty vulnerable. But things that are hard are often the things that are going to be the most fulfilling. And I certainly have had some incredible
relationships and friendships because I decided to just send it and make a new friend. So my encouragement to you this week is to be Sendy by making a new friend. Why don't you take a picture of you and your friend and tag Sendy mom on social media or better yet send me a picture at becky@sendymom.com or at sendy.mom on Facebook or Instagram.
and then get featured on my social media page. Now go find a friend and be Sendy
Becky Brouwer (31:03)
Well, I kind of wanted to segue just a little bit into your girls. Tell me a little bit about your girls and how you came about them.
Sherrie Gavin (31:07)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's just yeah, that's a crazy story. So it was, you know, so we Bruce and I couldn't have children. And we tried a lot of different things. And then it was just like, okay, the writing is on the wall. So we're just going to be us and we're satisfied with that. We're going to be happy with that. And then just a friend of a friend said,
Hey, know, there's these two little girls that are like, you know, they don't really have a home and the guardians are looking for somewhere for them to go. and I just thought, yeah, I am not chasing. I am not doing wild goose chases. am not doing the whole, I mean, it's a little bit like diabetes when you, when you have infertility, everybody gives you medical advice that they saw on TV, right? And, and you're just like, okay, that's not my body.
Thanks, I'm glad that worked for some celebrity doctor who's telling people to do this, but that's not my body for diabetes. And the same with infertility. It's like, you know, if you eat persimmons, then you're gonna get pregnant. And it was just like, I don't know about that. So I wasn't gonna go on a wild goose chase at all, but I just thought, you know, I'm gonna go be of service. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do some grocery shopping. I'll do some dishes.
I'll make some meals, I'll clean the house and I'll call it good. And the situation was very different. And so at the end of the day, I brought the girls home with me. And then we went about trying to, we had to identify them. We didn't know their last names. And getting that, needed to, like we didn't have birth certificates, we didn't have passports. We just, you know,
and their parents were in a different, their birth parents were in a different situation. And so it was just very challenging to communicate with them. So, but in finding and communicating with the birth mother, she was glorious. And she just, and I just said, we'd love to adopt your daughters if you're okay with that. And she said,
She was really good and in fact I just, I'm still in touch with her and with Turning Pink coming out because I'm really condensing a lot of drama, a lot of drama that was involved in that. There's so much and you know, they were born in one country and ended up in Australia and so we were trying to get, identify them in this other country and then for us to,
Becky Brouwer (33:36)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (33:50)
get passports issued for them and then to get their visas issued because they were in an interesting visa situation. was just, there was a lot going on. And then they had a real, you know, they had attachment issues and they'd been given around and they wanted to stay with us and we wanted to keep them with all of our hearts. But it was very, it was challenging. It was a very challenging period. And you know, some of it, you're actually mentioned in the book. So.
Becky Brouwer (34:19)
That's crazy.
Sherrie Gavin (34:20)
For your listeners, yeah, when the adoption was final, and I was just, well, I was saying about the birth mother, the birth mother, just said, you know, do you still feel at ease about this? Do you mind? And she just said, God's hand was in it. Those girls were always meant to be yours. I mean, you know, and people don't know that about adoption. They really don't own how the birth mother is utterly inspired by God as well. Like, there's just so much inspiration there, but.
Becky Brouwer (34:36)
It's amazing.
Absolutely.
Sherrie Gavin (34:48)
Yeah, so I'll just quickly tell your audience. yeah, when their adoption was final, they turned to us and they'd been seeing cartoons and things, happy endings always ended with weddings. And they said, great, are we gonna get married to you? And I said, sure. So I asked Becky to marry us as a family. And she performed.
Becky Brouwer (35:09)
That was one of the best parts of my life. Such a favorite memory.
Sherrie Gavin (35:15)
Yeah, ours too, ours too. So we had an adoption wedding and we decided that we really wanted to be a family. It was done and done, but we did it for the girls and they just loved it. They just loved it and we loved it too. And it was a beautiful experience to celebrate an adoption. So yeah, Becky's available for adoption weddings, I'm sure.
Becky Brouwer (35:26)
Yeah.
Yeah, that was fun. That's right. There you go. I'll do some adoption weddings if you want them. But you know, I felt like it was just such a beautiful commitment that those girls wanted to have with you. And I know they're teenagers now. And that's another story entirely. But when it comes down to the core,
They wanted to be committed to you, and they wanted you to be committed to them. And that's what that was all about. And I loved that about what you did. the whole thing of you just racing down to Sydney when you heard that there was somebody that needed help, not even realizing that.
Sherrie Gavin (36:04)
Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (36:13)
this is how your life was going to change from that moment on you were going to be a different person. And it's not like being pregnant for nine months and anticipating and planning for that baby. It was like, I have two girls who have had some serious trauma in their life and I am going to welcome them into my home and I'm going to be their mother. And that must have been a real challenge for you. Are there any...
tools that you have, you know, you've reflected on that kind of helped you through that that period of time.
Sherrie Gavin (36:47)
Yeah, I think some of my naivety was good. Because I mean, exactly, you just sort of, yeah, because I tend to overthink things as well. So I think that I think it was good that I didn't have that opportunity. But I just yeah, when we got back the first day we were back and Bruce was working in Chile and he he flew all night and I drove all night.
Becky Brouwer (36:53)
You don't know what you don't know and you just go.
Right.
Sherrie Gavin (37:15)
And we met back and we took the kids the next day shopping because they didn't have shoes, they didn't have underwear, didn't have, know, their list of didn't haves was very large. And I just remembered walking into the store and thinking, I have never shopped in a little kid's section of the store. I just, and so I thought, I have no idea what size these kids are.
I didn't know how undersized they were. So I think if I'd known that I might've been more, uh-oh, uh-uh, this isn't, something's wrong here. Yeah, so I think it was good that I didn't know that they were so underdeveloped physically and they also grew so fast. Cause I just was like, well, they're just really hungry. I just feed them and well, it's cause they probably weren't quite fed enough before.
Becky Brouwer (37:49)
There's something wrong.
Mm-hmm.
Sherrie Gavin (38:09)
But yeah, so, but then also the generosity of other mothers. I didn't know that that existed, that that, and that is a beautiful world where you can turn to another mother and say, I have no idea what size shoes to get and what I need. And those mothers just, and they could be strangers in grocery stores. And I know like, I used to think it was really kind of weird when people would offer me.
Becky Brouwer (38:26)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (38:39)
food advice about diabetes drove me bananas. But with kids, I'm like, my gosh, really? They like this? I'm getting it. Thank you so much. I so appreciate you. And so it's kind of funny, like this thing that used to drive me bananas, I was like suddenly so grateful for when it was flipped in a different situation.
Becky Brouwer (38:57)
Well, yeah, and that's the thing is because you seek answers from experts when you don't have information. But if you're the one that's the expert and you're getting information from people who haven't really studied it out, I can see how that could be a little bit irritating. But then once you feel you've got that humility because you don't know anything, that's when we really embrace each other and try to get all the information. That's actually kind of an interesting thing maybe we could talk about a little bit is
how to, what is a good way? Because we all want to be helpful, right? And generally when people are giving you advice about things, it's because they're just trying to be helpful.
sometimes it is hard to know how to give advice or if you should, if you should, or if you should just wait for somebody to ask.
Sherrie Gavin (39:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is so hard. I think asking is also, because we all have pride. Nobody wants to say, and even in my situation, I didn't want to say, I'm totally stupid, but where do you buy sippy cups in a store? I had no idea. There's a level of pride there where you don't want to ask.
And so sometimes you're not just dealing with your own desire to serve, but you might be dealing with the recipient's pride, So one of the things my mother used to do, and I used to think she was just weird, you know, because she was my mom, but she said, how can we help you? How can I help you?
Becky Brouwer (40:35)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (40:35)
You know, she'd see a mother struggling with children and a stroller and all these, you know, I'm trying to juggle all this stuff and groceries and stuff. she'd say, okay, how can I help you? And, and then sometimes they would say, Hey, just hold this or can you just, can you, know, just cause they're desperate and they're just all they want. Just hold a kid, just hold my child or hold this bag or whatever. But, that's a pinch. That's a pinch situation. but.
Becky Brouwer (40:57)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (41:04)
And I also think, so I think it depends on the situation. I think we need to, you kind of need to be paused and mindful about it.
Becky Brouwer (41:16)
sometimes you just want to know that people are there and people
Sherrie Gavin (41:21)
But I've also heard of other people saying that at the time of
an event, whether it be a death or something like that. There's a lot of people there. We're all mourning with you. We're celebrating. Then six months after, sometimes you're still processing or maybe it just finally hits you and you're like, this is my new life. And that's the scary stage. So not that I time it, but I do try to be mindful. If someone's lost someone, I try to be mindful on those six months later and just
Becky Brouwer (41:43)
Right.
Sherrie Gavin (41:56)
then communicate, how are you doing? Can I take you out to lunch? Would you like to just go and have a chat? And quite often people do respond to that. It's simple. It's easy. They can talk about whatever they want, but they get out of the house. get, maybe it changes the pace a little bit. So it's really, it's hard to just say, just read the room. Cause I get it wrong a lot too. But I think having your heart in the right place and kind of reaching out and saying,
Becky Brouwer (42:02)
Beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Sherrie Gavin (42:26)
We would desperately love to support you. What can we do?
Becky Brouwer (42:29)
And it's a lot harder to do with your children.
I think children are often, they want to be trusted. They want to feel like my parents think that I can figure this out on my own. And so I think that at some point in your child's life, you have to get to a point where you say, trust you and you're going to be great. And you're the cheerleader. You're suddenly not the parent anymore, but you are that cheerleader. there's a really...
Sherrie Gavin (42:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (42:59)
gray area when that comes to pass. so sometimes I have a difficult time, like as they're young adults, figuring out like, okay, so am I teaching you or am I just congratulating you and sitting with you when you've made a mistake that I know that you probably could have avoided if you would have listened to me, you probably would have avoided this, but you messed up.
Sherrie Gavin (43:21)
Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (43:24)
And so do I say, well, gee, I told you that you shouldn't have done that? Or do you say, that really sucks? I'm really sorry that that happened to you. And I think that's probably the better thing to say.
Sherrie Gavin (43:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think too for me it has to and I'm learning this now so I've been by no means any kind of professional with it but I like saying okay do I trust myself as a parent that I've taught them well? And if I can answer that question with yes, I've tried really hard and I've taught them these values, I've taught them these skills and maybe they're gonna test those things.
Becky Brouwer (43:52)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sherrie Gavin (44:05)
but that's okay, because I needed to test my mother's advice, my father's advice, and my teacher's advice, right? We all have to test it. We all have to push those boundaries sometimes. So I think, I do think it's okay to kind of, for me, I have to ask myself, do I trust myself as a parent that I've done a sufficient job that they're going to make a decision that's good for them? And with, which is scary to say, because then it puts it back on me, right?
Becky Brouwer (44:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (44:34)
And then I have to go, well, either I believe that I was a good mother or that I did the best I could at least, or do I believe that I really screwed up and I need to do all these little band-aids? So I'm like, I'm not a band-aid girl.
Becky Brouwer (44:38)
Mm-hmm.
Well, and of course you screwed up. I mean, we all do, right? And there's a little bit of forgiveness that needs to happen within yourself for the things that you haven't taught or that you've taught incorrectly. hopefully, I've given my parents a lot of grace in my later years, just understanding what I've done wrong with my children. And I hope that they will give me a little bit of grace when they get.
Sherrie Gavin (44:51)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, parenting.
Becky Brouwer (45:16)
older and realize, this was pretty hard what my mom had to go, you know, figure out. So yeah. I know that you're very passionate about history, and particularly, you know, right now you're doing, okay, tell me where we can find you on Instagram.
Sherrie Gavin (45:24)
Yeah.
okay, so Instagram, that's not a history thing. But I do an Instagram page called quotesbychurchofjesuschristwomen And I just quote women of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I started doing that because I like always adding women's voices wherever I can. I I spend a lot of time studying women's records in the church and I just think.
These are so brilliant, I really wanna share these. But you're not gonna hand most people like a six inch thick history book and they're gonna go, yay, let me read that. Right, so if I can just snip it down into quotes, but also from modern leaders and just, and really makes it, so I just quote women, they're just short, just enough to give you just the spark, hopefully, of some just crystal little bit of information that maybe makes your day brighter.
And so, yeah, and that's it. So.
Becky Brouwer (46:32)
Yeah.
I know It's a beautiful way to send out good things and that's a sendy thing too is to recognize what you have and what what makes you passionate and what makes gets you excited what inspires you and to share it with the world. That's really what we're trying to do is take what is beautiful inside of you and get it out so that other people can see it and that's what I love about your your Instagram account account. I think is you know just give a little bit of light and and
Sherrie Gavin (46:47)
Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (47:01)
and hope for people too. yeah. And I've always left the way that you are a real support for women And I know we've gotten a lot better and, you know, hopefully the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other direction because we need our men too. And we love.
Sherrie Gavin (47:04)
Yeah. thank you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Becky Brouwer (47:24)
the men and what they could do, but it's a partnership, right? So yeah, yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (47:28)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, and it's a beautiful partnership and yeah, and that's what I like. I didn't start the page to disparage any other source. I just thought like whenever I give a talk, I like to not just quote men. I like to quote women as well to sort of to just I think there needs to be balance. Yeah, and because we're all beautiful intelligent beings. So let's share our beautiful wisdom together. So
Becky Brouwer (47:47)
Balance.
Sherrie Gavin (47:56)
So I made it sort of as a resource to make it a little bit easier to possibly share some of the thoughts. yeah, so because it is a balance, need, of course we need men. It's not about one being over the other or, you know, better or worse. just, it's about, it has to be partnership. Yeah, so.
Becky Brouwer (48:11)
Yeah, no.
Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for sharing those. they brighten my day. So I appreciate those. So that's great. Is there something in your life that you are still kind of is back in the back of your mind, something that you would really like to do, but maybe makes you a little bit afraid or a little terrified to do?
Sherrie Gavin (48:21)
good. Thank you.
everything really. Yeah, I think I mean, I am doing the PhD now. But there is a little part of me that's afraid like when I finish what's next. And, and when I get freaked out like that, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, you know.
Becky Brouwer (48:56)
So do you have a fear of being done?
Sherrie Gavin (49:00)
Yeah, I think I have a fear of maybe not being able to get work or then again maybe getting work that is too much or I don't feel the same passion for it. It's very selfish really.
Becky Brouwer (49:17)
Interesting.
Sherrie Gavin (49:18)
I'm doing the weirdest degree, but it's not weird, but so I'm doing feminist food studies. and I'm looking at more women of the Church of Jesus Christ as my group. And with that, I've even narrowed down even more. So I look at certain aspects of what women were cooking in pioneer days, what women were cooking at the turn of the 20th century.
Becky Brouwer (49:25)
Okay.
Sherrie Gavin (49:42)
and then I'm looking at Relief Society cookbooks and community cookbooks. So I'm looking at different aspects of that. But with my degree, it's actually a sociology doctorate that I embrace, absolutely embrace history, sociology, anthropology, and just all of these different areas that really look at women's lives. And so with food studies, you look at old recipes.
and you learn things, you absolutely learn things. You learn about food availability, you learn about ethnic background, you learn about what people were willing to eat, not willing to eat. Because you see when they're in modes of starvation, other things kinda creep into the diet and those things disappear when they're out of periods of, when they're starving or when they're not as well off. You see other things, you see the train bringing in foods.
And so you see all these different, but then you learn the stories of them because all of a sudden you see these cookbooks and there's like, it's really fascinating with the Relief Society cookbooks. A lot of them have a lot of Mexican recipes in. Well, of course, lot of Mormons went to Mexico when polygamy was banned because they left the country to live in polygamy. They were afraid of being chased out. And then when the second manifesto happened and they were able to come back into the country,
they came back and they brought all these beautiful Mexican recipes. So you see these Mexican recipes, but they're not labeled as Mexican. They're just, it's just a Relief Society cookbook. And then you go into other neighborhoods, you there's this beautiful cookbook I saw out of South Africa, and there's these English recipes, there's traditional South African tribal recipes. It's just this beautiful melting pot of who is there in each of the cookbooks. They have this beautiful personality.
Becky Brouwer (51:15)
There. It's just, I love it. Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (51:36)
But you can see immigration routes. can see, well, look at the latest group of people that have immigrated this area, bring all these Italian food. So then you're getting all these Italian recipes. getting like, so you can trace immigration patterns. can trace income sources. You can trace just so much stuff that's telling us about the lives of the women as they are working together to make their community better. Cause they're doing the cookbooks to raise money.
Becky Brouwer (52:05)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (52:05)
So, and a lot of times they were doing it to raise the money for church buildings, but sometimes they were just raising the money to go out and serve in the community, to serve those who are less fortunate in the community. So they're working towards that. And so I think that's, so I like with food studies, you look at that, you look at the stories the food studies are telling you about the women who are putting the food together. You look at everything from a feminist angle, like it might even be telling you about.
you know, the habits they did, the style, the tools they used tell us so much information about technology and developing scientific technology in the kitchen and what they were trying to do for health and all these other things for their children. So it's quite, I don't know. So it's a really, it's...
Becky Brouwer (52:46)
Yeah.
That's actually really fascinating. Like Sherrie, when you told me you were doing food studies of women, I was like, okay, so you're like just finding old recipes or something like that. But this totally makes sense. And I love it because it really helps us to understand who these people were. And I get that now. So yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (53:01)
No. Yeah.
Yeah, no, lot of people are like, they think I'm studying culinary arts. And they're like, can you bring dinner? So, yeah.
Becky Brouwer (53:18)
Right. I'm like, do you cook a lot? Yeah, exactly. This is amazing. I love it. Well, and okay, and I love the part that you you talk about this being a melting pot. And this is the whole point, you know, I just, you know, we've we've lived abroad, right? And when you travel a lot, then you recognize that there are people, everybody in the world wants the same thing. They want happiness.
and they want happiness for their kids. And most people really want to be your friend. There are not a lot of people that are actively going to oppose you because we're all trying to get along together to be able to make.
progress in our lives. And what you're doing is a really sendy thing, because you are putting out there that look, we are all the same and we can be a community that supports one another. And I absolutely love that about what you're doing.
Sherrie Gavin (54:17)
Yeah, and discovers one another and learns about each other so we can find these commonalities and appreciate each other. mean, yeah, it's just, it's true like the old, it's from the New Testament, Acts, the Book of Acts, right? Breaking bread. It's talking about the sacrament, which is a religious connotation, but at the same time nowadays, let's break bread. What does that mean? I mean.
Becky Brouwer (54:44)
Get to be together. Yeah, eat together. Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (54:46)
That's right. We're going to be together. We're going to be at peace. We're going to break bread. We're going to discuss this. We're going to let bygones be bygones. We're going to atone. We're going to forgive. We're going to we're going to be good. We're going to break bread together. And I love that. is something that I really try to integrate with the research I do is how are they bringing together peace? How are they bringing together community as we're looking at these food sources and also how is community diminishing? Because you can also sense that in some of the
Becky Brouwer (54:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (55:16)
resources as well. but yeah, so I do.
Becky Brouwer (55:16)
Yeah.
We definitely need more coming together than separation, because we do get a lot of separation. A lot of the point of this podcast is to bring people together and inspire people to become more and to do it together with other people. So I wanted to ask you a few rapid fire questions, just to kind of find out a little bit more about you. So my first question is, what has brought you joy in the last 24 hours?
Sherrie Gavin (55:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Go for it.
24 hours.
it's going to sound so corny and so simple, but I just, I dropped my daughter off at school today and I just enjoy one-on-one simple time, right? It's not, we don't have three hours in the car that we're trying to kill or get into anything deep. was just like, hey, how you going? Are you ready for today? It just, I just, I just...
Becky Brouwer (56:06)
Yeah.
Sherrie Gavin (56:10)
love that one-on-one with her. just absolutely do. I just love the one-on-one with my girls because they're teenagers and they don't want to hang out with me. Yeah.
Becky Brouwer (56:18)
Yes, love the car. That's why I love carpool actually, because it is great because well in carpool, I get to know their friends too, which is really nice. But you want to just cherish those times.
Sherrie Gavin (56:26)
Yep.
Becky Brouwer (56:29)
OK, so what was the last TV show or documentary that you watched that you liked?
Sherrie Gavin (56:36)
Ooh, I watch the weirdest stuff and it's so random. I did look into this series and it's, so corny, but it's, it's out of South Africa and it's called Recipes for Love and Murder. And it's a little, you know, it's a little murder she wrote-ish, but the...
Becky Brouwer (56:55)
Cute!
Sherrie Gavin (56:56)
it's very dramatic too. mean, but it's the main protagonist is a woman who also cooks a lot. And so therefore the title recipes and, I just, I think it's a beautiful representation of different kinds of women from different kinds of life in this little South African town. And they're working together and just the scenery of it is just beautiful. Everything about it. The cinematography is beautiful.
Becky Brouwer (56:58)
you
Sherrie Gavin (57:20)
that showing how when she's cooking and she's chopping this fresh beautiful fruits and vegetables, it's just a beautiful, visually beautiful thing that normally I listen to things in the background as I'm doing something else, but this one was just visually beautiful to me.
Becky Brouwer (57:35)
that's beautiful. I'll have to look that one up. Okay, what's the last really good book that you read?
Sherrie Gavin (57:36)
Yeah. Yeah.
I really love From Betty Crocker to Feminist Food Studies. It's, it's, and that's the title of the book. And it's a selection of essays at different aspects of food studies. And it, tackles racism using symbolism of food. It tackles feminism. It tackles
Becky Brouwer (57:48)
Great.
awesome.
Sherrie Gavin (58:03)
with the religious use of food, talks about community. It just really is, every time I listen to it, I can pick up something new, because I've got it on audio as well as hard copy. have all, if I like a book enough that I have all the versions, that's it. But I also really liked the Polygamist Wives Writing Club. So the writer that put that together, she looked at the diaries of only second or third wives, and she had some criteria for it.
Becky Brouwer (58:22)
Huh.
Sherrie Gavin (58:32)
and what they were writing about their lives. So there wasn't actual writing club. That's just the way she titled it. But it's just fascinating how she's woven together what their lives were like. that was just really, it felt very personal to get to know these women like that. So it was lovely. So two, there we go.
Becky Brouwer (58:38)
Yeah.
Yeah. I love that. That's great. All right. That's awesome. Okay. Name your favorite vacation spot.
Sherrie Gavin (58:57)
you know the next spot right anywhere I think yeah in the past was actually Cambodia we loved Cambodia so we we I strongly recommend it we just had a delightful time we loved it we really loved Cambodia so
Becky Brouwer (59:00)
Yeah, wherever you're going. know
never been there. That sounds awesome.
That's awesome. very good. What's what's one thing you try to do every day?
Sherrie Gavin (59:23)
Wordle There we go. Our little Wordle thing. Yeah, Wordle. Yep.
Becky Brouwer (59:26)
Great, I love Wordle too. We should be friends on Wordle. could have our, yeah, that's awesome. Okay, what do you think I should try next?
Sherrie Gavin (59:37)
Ooh, I think you're doing pretty awesome with this. I think you should get published next. I think you should put together an article for somewhere, Meridian Magazine or, I mean, LDS Living, put something together and get it out there.
Becky Brouwer (59:54)
That's something I haven't even thought about. I don't know. So yeah, I will look into that. thanks, Sherrie. Can you tell us just quickly about your book? I know you've got to run but can you tell us about your book that you're having published a little bit?
Sherrie Gavin (59:55)
you
Yeah. Yeah, do it. Do it.
Yep, so it is a memoir of our experience of how we got to where we are. So it talks a little bit about our infertility trials and that path and how we were ready to kind of take the next step. And then this really bizarre situation where we ended up with these instantly with these two little girls. And then also the challenges of working with children who didn't have stability.
And the challenges of Bruce was flying, he would fly out Monday morning and fly back home Thursday or Friday night for work. So it was me on my own. so there is a lot of self-reflection about where I was in my state of mind. And I was really trying to do everything right. And it was very challenging to find, to get passports, to get to, you know, find the birth parents, to connect with everyone and get everything put together and dealing with all of my own
personal baggage as I did that. I had judgments of people who had been in prison. I had judgments that I didn't know that I had judgments about. And just my own processing that and just really, I hope becoming a better person by the end of it. And so it's just our story about how we've adopted the girls.
Becky Brouwer (1:01:16)
you
and it's and tell me the name of it again. Turning Pink by Sherrie Gavin and that'll be out next year then for people to look for. So OK.
Sherrie Gavin (1:01:30)
turning pink.
Yep. Yep. Next April by Common Consent Press. Awesome. Will do.
Becky Brouwer (1:01:41)
Very good. Well, you'll have to send me a link as soon as that comes out, because I'll want to publish that for sure on my website. So thank you for being with me today, Sherrie. It was really fun to talk to you. And I hope we get to do it again soon. For everyone else, I hope you enjoyed this podcast. And please subscribe.
Sherrie Gavin (1:01:49)
Thank you.
Becky Brouwer (1:02:04)
you can leave me a comment in anywhere that you listen to your podcasts and we're on YouTube as well as on sendymom.com if you would like to be a Sendy mom, please send me a message on sendymom.com because I just love interviewing new people that I don't know as well. And so, this has been really fun today and, and thank you so much, Sherrie for being with me and we'll sign off. thank you.
Sherrie Gavin (1:02:30)
All right, thank you for having me.