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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
I know that there are things that that come to my mind that don't come from me. They come through me. I feel like like I am divinely guided when when I move into that state with you.
Voiceover Artist:In a world of hurt and pain, we find a way to break the chain. A caring heart, a guiding light, lead us through the darkest night. With preservation in our soul, we'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. To the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKenney and Padida Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Padida, it's good to see you again. How you doing?
Padideh Jafari:Thank you. I'm doing well. I know your birthday is coming up. What is it? Tomorrow?
Jon McKenney:It is tomorrow. '29 again. Oh my. Something like that.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Right.
Jon McKenney:My my great aunt who, by the way, she passed last year, but she was my favorite aunt probably, and I was the closest with her. She told me that once she hit 50, she started counting backwards, and I thought that was a really good plan. And by the way, she also told me that I could call her my great aunt. She wanted she'd prefer to be called aunt, but she said that I could call her my great aunt only if great was an adjective. So I did that a lot.
Jon McKenney:Said great aunt. Oh my goodness. She was amazing.
Padideh Jafari:So, you know, I have I have two great nephews, and they can call me great aunt anytime they want. Although, one of them barely speaks because he's nine months, and then the other one is almost four. So they're the cutest things ever. So
Jon McKenney:Yeah. A nephew that barely speaks sounds great.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, he's nine months. He's the cutest thing ever.
Jon McKenney:Uh-huh. That's amazing. I'll bet you're a really good, great aunt.
Padideh Jafari:I am. I've shown you pictures of them.
Jon McKenney:I have. They're beautiful. They're beautiful. Well, today, we have a fantastic guest with us, a miss Laura Tamin, and she she is the owner of an organization called Achievement Strategies over in Roswell, Georgia. And she does therapy and hypnotherapy.
Jon McKenney:And full disclosure, she's actually my therapist, I don't mind saying. In fact, she's really helped me tremendously. I've talked about her in our podcast without her knowing about it yet. I don't think she's gone through them all, but I've said, believe it or not, Laura, I've said really good things about you.
Laura Temin:Of course, you believe it.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. You should. You should because they're really good.
Laura Temin:Yes. Thank you.
Jon McKenney:So so, Laura, you have helped some people through you help people through a lot of crises, and it's not just, can I quit smoking or can I lose weight? And you do those kinds of things as well, but it it's also people with some deeper emotional trauma and even some of those who have gone through narcissistic abuse like myself. Can you describe what those people are like when they come to you?
Laura Temin:Well, when a person has an experience of living or being a partner with or having to to deal with a relationship with somebody who has a narcissism or really often it's not just narcissism when people have a history of trauma, severe trauma, and they haven't had they haven't really addressed it. They haven't really resolved it. It's a similar thing. But when a person has a history of being with somebody who has a narcissistic personality disorder, they they're filled with self doubt. They feel insecure.
Laura Temin:It's kind of like crazy making for a person. And and what you're really dealing with is because you're questioning yourself. Right? You know, is it me? Is it them?
Laura Temin:It's and I don't have to tell you because you already know and whoever your audience is, they know also. There's hypervigilance that people have to deal with, feeling safe, feeling secure, trusting themselves, trusting other people. I mean, that there there is so much that is related to that that relationship.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. You know, I trauma is a really, I think, a good word to describe a lot of the narcissists those who've been abused by narcissists that I've encountered too. I do some coaching here and there for people as well, and I see lot depression. I see a lot of financial abuse against these people. I see a lot of weaponizing kids against these people.
Jon McKenney:And unfortunately, I would guess that by the time they find their way to you, they're really at their lowest point.
Laura Temin:Absolutely. I mean, according to doctor Gottman, who's a relationship expert, he says that people don't even go for help with a therapist for seven years. And Wow. And I think he was speaking about marriage counseling in particular. But it's true because first we try to figure things out ourselves.
Laura Temin:I mean, no one's gonna write away and go to a therapist. They're gonna try and figure it out themselves. And it's a long process, I think, before a person gets to me.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Padideh, how long was it before you kind of sought therapy?
Padideh Jafari:Wow. That's a long time.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Yeah. I I think
Padideh Jafari:would say it was kind of weird for me because I was a divorce attorney stuck in a narcissistic abusive marriage, not really knowing that it was narcissistic. I just thought he was toxic and had a sex addiction that I could somehow cure. And so we started to go, I think, around, I would say, the three year mark of our marriage to a Christian counselor. And, basically, I told the Christian counselor that everything was my fault because that's what I believed from the person. And I said, what do I need to do to keep this marriage?
Padideh Jafari:And she really didn't do much justice to me because she named off a bunch of things I needed to do, like be more sexually active with my husband, which was almost impossible. Right? And she gave she did wanna see him and she gave him a book about sex addiction, which he never read. So we went through several therapists after that because I was trying to fix me because he was not acknowledging that there was anything wrong with him. So I would say within with the the three year mark, but really, it was it really didn't help much, to be honest with you, until I sought my own therapist, and then my own therapist wanted to meet him, and then he said, I need to get out or he was going to kill me.
Padideh Jafari:So it was a journey with the therapist.
Laura Temin:I'm not surprised.
Jon McKenney:Laura, is that common where the victims actually find their is it common where the the victims actually think they're the problem?
Laura Temin:Yes. That's what I have found in my experience. And there's somebody who I had seen, not too long ago who kind of approached me in the same way that Padeeta, you know, you just described. And she said, I really love my husband. They were already divorced, but they were still living together and she wanted to make this relationship work and she had in her mind this vision of who he was in the beginning.
Laura Temin:And so you know this is the wishful thinking part that that we all have when we meet somebody that they are a certain way And and so we fall in love with that image or that belief, that experience. And then when it changes, we think it's us. And so we do all these things. We, like, we turn ourselves inside out, particularly women do. Turn ourselves inside out to meet that person's needs.
Laura Temin:And but nothing ever does. And when she talked to me, now she came to me for hypnotherapy. She didn't come to me for marriage counseling. So I'm licensed as a marriage counselor but also my passion is the hypnotherapy because it works with the feelings and the feelings override the logic. And so she wanted to be able to work things out.
Laura Temin:But he I said, well, how about if he joins us? And she he didn't really want to join us, but he agreed to have to join us by Zoom, and he spent the whole time verbally beating her up. And she sat there through the whole thing. And I had I had told her she had told me that she really wanted to get back with him. And so we allowed him to say everything he needed to say, which it was so hard to even sit with that but she wanted this relationship so badly that she was willing to do that but it also from the therapy point of view.
Laura Temin:You know, people talk about their spouses. Everyone thinks that their spouse needs to be fixed. Everyone thinks that they're fine, and it's the other person. When I went to therapy with my husband, I'm like, fix him, and he's like, fix her. You know, we all think that the way that we think is the best way and that the other person has the problem.
Laura Temin:But there was no accountability. There was so much anger. There was so much nastiness. And when she was live with me and we had to coerce him to join us by Zoom and unless she did a b c d whatever he wasn't going to, engage. He was just horrible.
Laura Temin:It it broke my heart to listen. But listen. You have to listen to the person. You have to be able to see both sides because you don't know. People may not mean to misrepresent themselves, but we all see through our own eyes, through our own filter.
Laura Temin:And when he left the Zoom camera and we spoke, I mean, it was clear that she had become very comfortable listening to all of the hurtful things that he would say, and still she wanted to be in that relationship. And so I think it's I think it is, not a healthy thing to do, but who am I to make a decision for someone else? My place, as much as I might want to, is to ask the question. So what is it about this person that you're feeling connected to? What is it that you want?
Laura Temin:What are you hoping for? You know, what's it like for you to to hear that? And in my opinion, it doesn't seem like he wants to work things out. And do you are you sure that's okay with you?
Padideh Jafari:Is it, as I'm listening to you, I'm recalling, you know, we're always chasing what we had in the beginning. Right? Because the beginning, the love bombing is almost like a drug. Right? And so for me, I was always chasing that first six months with him.
Padideh Jafari:Even though it was, like, you know, six, seven years down the road, I was still chasing that first six months. And I was like, I know he's got it in him because he had it the first six months that we met. So is that why we kind of excuse the bad behavior later on because we're kind of wanting to get back to that sort of honeymoon stage before the mask comes off?
Laura Temin:That's what everyone says. Pretty much at that that's the pattern is that we move into and I'm calling it wishful thinking that we have this dream. We have this memory. We have this hope. And this particular person was talking about, you know, we had this experience at this time, and I don't know what happens, but he just switches.
Laura Temin:And if I could only get back to that, I know he loves me and and it's so sad but it's true but it's not just with narcissists that this happens. You think about conditioning. You think about Pavlov and the dogs. You think about the concept of conditioning. And I don't remember the exact term for it, but, so pardon me if I don't say it right.
Laura Temin:I'm gonna explain it the best that I can. But, you know, if every, time you, hit hit a I don't know what it is, bell, let's say, and every third time you hit that bell or do this thing, you get a treat, you know that after three times you're gonna hit a bell, you're gonna get a treat. If, you never get a treat, you're gonna know you're never gonna get a treat. But if you get a treat after the third time and then you don't get it until after the tenth time and then you get it after the first time, then you you anticipate, yes, I'm going to get this. This is gonna happen.
Laura Temin:And I think that's what happens with the narcissist is that they're because they are in control. They are controlling the relationship, and it's an intentional thing that they're doing. But you don't know. It takes you or the the partner it takes a very long time for a person to become aware that this is a pattern, and often they need somebody to point it out to them. So to answer your question in a really long winded way, yes, that's what happens with people is that we do think it's us.
Laura Temin:We do hold on to that dream, but it isn't specific. It it's heightened with narcissist. But in any kind of relationship that's inconsistent, it's the same thing.
Jon McKenney:There were two things in there that you said that were just brilliant and triggered a thought. One is they try to give you just enough hope to hang on. I know and you talked about this. I had a moment with my ex where I called the A plus B equals C moment, where she would say, If you do this and you do this, A plus B, I'll do this. And the reality was you play this game.
Jon McKenney:It's kind of like the bell. You play this game with them or you go, okay. I'm gonna do a and I do b, but they'll never do c. And then you go back again. Sometimes we call this moving the target.
Jon McKenney:And they go, okay. Well, I didn't mean a. I meant secret letter d. So if you do d plus b, you'll get c, and then they don't do c again. They go, oh, no.
Jon McKenney:No. No. Wait. Wait. You didn't you didn't didn't do it.
Jon McKenney:You need f plus z, and if you give me f plus z, I'll give you c. And and and by doing this, they're painting an equation for you of hope that this could work. What you described also, I think Padita talked about here in large part is you hope on our podcast, I call it the happily ever after. Right? Wanted the happily ever after.
Jon McKenney:And I had this moment, you described it so eloquently, I felt like, I know she loves me because I remember this. Like Padita said, I always was trying to get back to this place where we were in love. I was trying to get back to this place where I felt like she was engaged with me. I was trying to get back. And the hard moment for me, I think, hardest moment in the healing process was realizing that that never existed, that it was a game upfront, that the love bombing was real, but the intent was not.
Jon McKenney:My love was real, and I know that without question. But her love for me was manipulative. I use love in air quotes in that particular situation. The way she treated me was manipulation in order to get into a relationship with me so she could use and abuse me. That was her idea of love, I guess.
Jon McKenney:But going back to that place and discovering that what I believed was real, but that what she believed and what she thought about those early days, she didn't was never That place that I wanted to get back to never really existed is a mind fuck. I don't know how else to say it, but it really is. You realize that place didn't exist, and I think that helped me a lot with the trauma bonding, which made me want to get back to her, which I feel like I was in for twenty five years. That's got to be a difficult place to help people find and a difficult place to help people grow from because it was a growing experience for me without question. So we got people who are trauma bonded.
Jon McKenney:And what are some of the other things? We talked about PTSD. Tell us about some of those folks. I saw a meme with Jordan Peterson, one of Jordan Peterson's memes not long ago, and he was talking about PTSD, he said, you know, it's not that people hurt you. That's the problem.
Jon McKenney:He said, it's not that doesn't create PTSD. He said, He said, But when you encounter somebody who's malevolent, who's hurting you, who's intentionally doing so, who this is kind of their default setting. He says, You're lucky if you come out alive in those kinds of situations. And a lot of people wind up with PTSD from those spaces, particularly in narcissistic abuse. So could you describe for us, mean, talk about PTSD, talk about what it is and what it's not, and and and what those people who have it look like when they when they visit you.
Laura Temin:So PTSD is post traumatic stress disorder. And, you know, I'm gonna talk to you. I'm gonna introduce the concept of hypnosis right now because that's what it is. When a person has a trauma, they, in a certain way, dissociate because whatever it is is unbearable in that moment. They can't make sense of it, and so they they kind of disengage.
Laura Temin:Now everyone has trauma. Some people have smaller traumas. Some people have bigger traumas. You know, what might be a huge trauma for me maybe maybe nothing to you. But when a person had is in an experience that is completely shocking or devastating or distressing, unexpected, they dissociate.
Laura Temin:And when when people dissociate, they enter a hypnotic state. I mean, they're in the hypnotic state. That's why they dissociate. And when you are overloaded, overwhelmed, which is what happens when when you have, you know, an experience, it's so distressing. You know, it doesn't really matter if you're watching a car crash and people are thrown from the car.
Laura Temin:It doesn't matter if you're walking into your bedroom and your spouse is with someone else. It doesn't matter if you're watching somebody get shot. Like, whatever it is, it's so extreme or horrific that you're you can't process it fully in that moment, and you become so overwhelmed, so overloaded that you dissociate. And so when a person is overwhelmed, the they become suggestible. And the conscious mind isn't really in control anymore.
Laura Temin:The subconscious mind, the emotions are what is driving everything. And in that moment, what happens is we make assumptions. Belief systems are formed in that moment. So and they may be accurate, but they may not be accurate. But in that moment, the the experience is so intense that you're left with this feeling.
Laura Temin:I'm not safe or or men can't be trusted or women can't be trusted or people can't be trusted. And in this relationship thing that happens when you when you get to that place, those belief systems, they they become embedded and and they interfere. You are left with that kind of belief system, and then you have all the evidence in the world like, well, you know, relationships aren't safe, or women are all drama, or, you know, men aren't trustworthy, or whatever it is. And that is a subconscious mind. And so PTSD, it's more than just the experience.
Laura Temin:It's the experience. Plus, it's the internalization of our interpretation and who we are in relation to ourselves and a person and in the world. And that to me is what PTSD is. And so we could talk on the conscious level about it. We could talk on a conscious level about what this person did.
Laura Temin:And, you know, again, we're moving in and out. If you have that trauma experience of the person, and sometimes they're nice and sometimes they're not, It's it's a conflict in the mind. Who is this person? You know, I can't be fooled. Was I fooled?
Laura Temin:Am I fooled? And we're gonna go back and forth in that place. That's why we stay so long in that relationship because they know how to pull you in. They don't really want you to go, and you want the relationship that you of your dreams, and they know how to make it that way, and they and they keep dangling that carrot. You know, if you would only do this, remember someone if you would only do this or you need to be able to do that.
Laura Temin:And and the person tries to do it, and then they would say, I never said that or, you know, that's not what I meant or you're making that up or or some other crazy making thing that they do. And so what that does is it keeps you in self doubt. It keeps you feeling insecure, and you you you feel like there's something wrong with you because they're so certain the way they deliver things. And so it doesn't just end when you say goodbye to the person. Now you're left with all of that stuff, and we could talk about it on the conscious level.
Laura Temin:But the conscious level is your logic, your reason, and your willpower. But all of your conscious level is driven by the subconscious mind. And the subconscious mind is your associations, your expectations, your imagination. So it's all your history, the past, the experiences that happen, what you're hoping for. That is the real driver.
Laura Temin:And unless you can, soothe the subconscious mind, educate the person on the emotional level, rebuild their trust in themselves, rebuild their understanding because they they're afraid after that. They have trust issues after that. They're hypervigilant after that. They're vulnerable, and they don't wanna put themselves ever in that situation again. And then they lose.
Laura Temin:Then the perpetrator, the narcissist, whatever it is, they win. And so my job is to help them come back to a place where they could trust themselves enough to know that there are good people and there are people who aren't really good and that to know that they will recognize those people very quickly so they won't ever be in that situation again. And to me, that is the end goal.
Padideh Jafari:Do you ever recommend books like a book for somebody to read? Because, like, as you're talking right now first of all, I can listen to you forever. Your your voice is so soothing. That's number one.
Jon McKenney:It really is.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And then number two is, like like, do you do you recommend maybe at the end of this this segment, you can maybe recommend a book or two because the the trusting yourself again is what I had a problem with. Yeah. Like, I knew for certain this person was wrong for me, and I it took me eight years of dating before I met my current and final husband. That's a joke we have on the show.
Jon McKenney:It is.
Padideh Jafari:And so it took me eight years just because I didn't trust myself to make another bad decision or good decision. So anyway, that's as you were talking, that's what I was thinking of.
Jon McKenney:And and, you know, it's interesting. Ultimately, the end result of of narcissistic abuse, as both of you kind of eloquently put, not trusting yourself, is you wind up questioning reality. So it's like everything you ever known I used the word mind fuck earlier because I don't have another word to describe it. Some will hear that and hear vile. Some will hear it and hear, I don't It's like this word, I don't have words for.
Jon McKenney:And it's questioning of reality and the expansiveness of that reality is ridiculous because you've thought you've entered into this beautiful relationship with somebody and then you realize, wait a minute, I never had that from the beginning. My feelings were genuine, but theirs were not. And then it's complicated with family and it's complicated with friends, and it's complicated with faith, and it's complicated with work. And I've known I've known men who who dated a narcissist for for three months and were wrecked so badly that they had trouble working. Others who were involved for twenty five or thirty years who somehow managed to continue to do that even though their trauma was big.
Jon McKenney:So it's not even a length of time thing. The questioning reality, the gaslighting that the narcissist brings to the table, I think we've said here basically, you wonder who you are. You wonder whether you're the narcissist. You tend to blame yourself. I can remember these things distinctly for years and years trying to fix myself, like Padeeta said, so that the marriage would survive.
Jon McKenney:I would run harder at A plus B, so I would get C and it never worked. Then I go F plus Z and that wouldn't work. I kept trying something else and ultimately these things would never work. You have to resolve and you have to find this place in yourself where you go, Wait a minute. Maybe I'm not the problem.
Jon McKenney:Maybe this is not just about me. I'm in a situation that has a reality and I need to understand that reality and I need to understand it also at not just an intellectual level, Laura, like you were saying. You're dealing with the intellect, but then you're also dealing with the subconscious, which is more the emotional center and those kinds of things that deal with deep seated emotionally held beliefs. And somehow you have to wade somebody through all of this and bring them back to emotional health. I'll tell you this too.
Jon McKenney:I know that we've ever said this on the podcast before, Padilla, but this is a long journey. Oh, yeah. I'm still discovering things. I'm still learning things. I'm still having to crash through things and maybe perhaps unwilling to in some places as well because of my own fears or my own questioning of reality.
Jon McKenney:I've had to go back and go, what faith was I born into in my family? Because the collateral damage from this is bigger than just my marriage, And there are other people acting out as well who have similar to narcissistic tendencies. And you put all this together and not only is it a mind fuck, it's a cluster fuck. And it really is problematic for anybody who who's who's gone through this. So so, Laura, tell us some tell us about talk to us about hypnotherapy and how because you have lots of tools in your arsenal.
Jon McKenney:You're a therapist. You do marriage counseling, and you have what would be a standard set of tools for for a therapist. And I've you know, I've told people before that that sitting in a session with you to me is like watching Michelangelo paint. It's your best gift, and you know I adore you and respect you like none other. But tell us how hypnotherapy gets you to some of those places.
Jon McKenney:Because some people think of hypnotherapy, and particularly in the Christian community where Padeeta and I have both been a part of that, they think it's like voodoo magic, and I don't think that at all. I think it's more like prayer, to be honest with you. It's like somebody praying over you for your constant best. I know you're a believer in God and you very much feel like God is at work in those moments and giving you things to say and things to speak that would be meaningful to help change the subconscious. But tell me how this works.
Jon McKenney:How does hypnotherapy help somebody through narcissistic victimization and through PTSD and these other traumas that you encounter when somebody somebody visits.
Laura Temin:Okay. So I wrote up a bunch of notes as you were both talking, and so I wanna address it if I can systematically.
Jon McKenney:Please do.
Laura Temin:I don't leave anybody hanging. So, Padita, you said about books, and that ties into conscious and subconscious for me because, you know, you could read a book and it's real helpful to understand that it's not just me. There are other people and here are some tools, you know, and that's really good. I wrote a book called, accidental hypnosis. You know?
Laura Temin:Well, you could look it up if you want. But it talks about what hypnosis really is and and where you see it. You asked the question, John, about, you know, how does hypnosis help and about the myths around hypnosis. And hypnosis is the state between awake and asleep. You go through it every day.
Laura Temin:Before you fall asleep, you enter that state. As you awaken, you move through that state. They even have names for it, the hypnopompic and hypnagogic state. And so it's a real state. It's not something I'm imposing on you.
Laura Temin:And when you're in that state, your analyzing ability, it's not really as strong. So let's say you know, I'm gonna use an example that doesn't apply. But let's say that you wanted to stop smoking, and you knew you wanted to stop smoking, but you like smoking because you think it relaxes you. Now the reason you think it relaxes you is because when you are stressed, you reach for a cigarette and you take a break. But you don't know that on the conscious level.
Laura Temin:You just think I reached for that cigarette and I feel better. You don't you're not breaking it down in those ways. But if I said that to you on the conscious level, you would blow it off. But when you're in that state between awake and asleep, I could say things to you that you would consider, that you would not consider during the conscious state because, you know, when we wanna change, we're in conflict with ourselves. One part of us wants this, and the other part wants that.
Laura Temin:Or one part of us wants this, but doesn't want that. Whatever changes, that's the way that's why we're not changing because we have a conflict. So if I want to lose weight or if I want to make my relationship better and, that means that I have to give in to everything that my narcissistic spouse says, and I have to bury my feelings, my needs, my hurt. Well, I'm in a conflict. I want this, but I don't want that.
Laura Temin:I want things to be better, but I can't stuff things anymore. Whatever it is that we're talking about, that's the conflict. So what hypnotherapy does, if it's done with by somebody who understands how do how different people learn, whether a person's had trauma or not. I mean, there are a lot of things because you could take a thirty hour training and call yourself a hypnotist or a hypnotherapist, but you're not equipped really to help somebody with trauma like that. But if you find the right person to help you, then what they're going to do is they're gonna help you enter that state between awake and asleep, which is just kinda your eyes are closed.
Laura Temin:You know? Like, even now, if you were to close your eyes and I would talk to you and I would talk a little slower like I'm doing now, and I would tell you basic things like it feels good to close your eyes. It feels good to rest. And if I were to tell you those things, you would become more comfortable. And in that in that time, then based on everything that you told me, like, let's say you'd say to me, I'm done with this relationship, but I can't stay away.
Laura Temin:I want to say goodbye to this person, but I can't stay away. And I would ask you, alright. Are you sure that you wanna stay away? And we would have a whole conversation about what gets in the way of you staying away and all those things. And then in that state, I would remind you of who you are.
Laura Temin:How magnificent you are. That I would remind you of the things that you would need to know to begin to relax a little bit. I would remind you that there's a part of you that recognizes that this isn't healthy for you and it's okay to notice that. It's okay to make a decision to serve you, a decision that's healthy and right for you. And so I would be giving you suggestions based on what you want.
Laura Temin:And it's not like pulling up all the trauma. You're not, you know, making you go through all these things and relive it. No. On the conscious level, you're telling me, I don't like this, and I don't like that, and it scares me, and I'm ready to go. Or you're telling me, which people do sometimes.
Laura Temin:I want like that person that I spoke about, I want to be able to be a better partner. Listen. Sometimes people need to stay until they're ready to go. And I as much as I wanna pull them out of there and shake them, I can't do it. I have to meet them where they are because I can't make them move.
Laura Temin:I can only support their movement when they're ready. And what happens is if I could listen to you and if I could support you, then now we're building trust. Now there's an experience that you have with trust with me. And so I'm modeling that you could trust someone. And so that's the beginning of it.
Laura Temin:So so when you work with hypnosis, we're not doing voodoo. We're accessing the part of your natural life, the state between awake and asleep. And instead of you putting junk in your mind accidentally, oh, it's me or I'm not safe or everybody is drama and there are no good people anymore or whatever the story is that has become your truth, I'm gonna help you readdress that, dissolve that a little bit, have more faith in yourself, and I'm gonna do it lovingly, supporting what your goal is. And and because it's bypassing the logical mind, it's that same state as the trauma hits, that sort of disassociated state. It works quicker, and it works through repetition.
Laura Temin:Every day you talk to yourself. Every day. But you're not paying attention to what you're saying to yourself, and you're reinforcing the same old negative things. That's what we do. And we do it because the mind wants to protect you.
Laura Temin:The mind is gonna continue to try to protect you. Oh, don't get in that situation again. It's dangerous. But you don't realize that. I realize that because I'm trained to to know that.
Laura Temin:And so I have to remind you. And the more I remind you, the stronger the suggestion becomes. And so the laws of hypnosis are repetition and association, but we're fighting against your own repetition and your own association from valid real experiences. And that that's the hardest part is that you have evidence that, you know, that people aren't safe, that all women or all men or all it becomes bigger than life. And and your experience is accurate.
Laura Temin:I can't say it's not, but I could say that is specific to those people. And as you learn, you've already outgrown that. And so you're moving towards you recognize it quicker. And so it is a process of retraining your mind, rebuilding faith in yourself, rebuilding hope, rebuilding the fact that you could trust yourself. It's a process, but it's the quickest and most gentle process if it's done right.
Laura Temin:So I don't know if that answers that I know is very Makes
Jon McKenney:all kinds of that makes all kinds of sense. I I think, you know, if I hear if I understand you correctly, and and and some people's idea of hypnotherapist is what they see a sideshow do, and I don't think that's hypnotherapy anyways or hypnosis. That's peer pressure getting people to jump up and down in front of an audience. But what what I I I think you're what if I understand correctly that you're you've you've kinda tackled two things. One, we're talking about the intellect versus the emotional center, and people in trauma make decisions about themselves and about their world based on an experience.
Jon McKenney:You're so fond of saying to me all the time, let me reframe that for you. And that's your way of saying, John, you're a dumbass. Wait a minute.
Laura Temin:Why did I say that? Let me reframe that for you because I don't remember I was saying that
Jon McKenney:You one do. Say to me all the time. Let me reframe that for you. Let me help you understand what might else be going on. And and it's it's your way of telling me because you you hear it from my intellect, you hear it from my emotion, and and we make decisions on these situations at an intellectual level and an emotional level, and sometimes these things are just flat out incorrect.
Jon McKenney:Can remember
Laura Temin:accurate for you in that moment because it's your experience. We have to honor our experiences. Mean, that's how we evaluate the world and keep ourselves safe. That's how we do it.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. So So so like my ex, at one point in time, we had a we had a car that had a transmission that went bad on a trip. We were on it to Florida. So we we wound up having to tow the car away and buy a new car while we were on vacation in Florida. And ever since then, anytime something goes wrong with one of the cars or one of the kids' cars, oh, it must be the transmission.
Jon McKenney:And there are about a million other parts on the car that could fail at the time. But again, it keeps us pigeonholed into thinking that something may be taking place when it's not actually taking place. And it sounds like what you're saying, and again, this is my experience too, is that you're helping people consider not just at an intellectual level, but also at an emotional level and maybe a spiritual level. Let's go that deep, right? We'll call it spiritual the deepest, emotional kind of just on top of that, and maybe intellectual not so deep perhaps, you wind up helping people understand truths about themselves, truths about their situation, truths about perhaps their environment and the people they encounter and things like that, so that it begins to change your emotional and perhaps spiritual self in moments where you are suggestible.
Jon McKenney:I can tell you that from my experience that I've had nothing but positive things. In fact, you tell me every time. The things that are good for you, you keep for life. Right? What do you say at the beginning of each one?
Jon McKenney:Right? You need to tell people this. Right? Go ahead. Tell them what tell them what you say.
Laura Temin:That you're only suggestible to the things that offer you benefit and anything less just pulls away. Like, you are the only thinker in your mind, and you're only gonna accept suggestions that are healthy and right for you. Is that what you're talking about?
Jon McKenney:That's exactly it. And then at the end, you say, those things stay with you for life, and and you have that conversation as well. And I know for a fact, for me, it's been very beneficial. And I thought as I participated, it was more like directed prayer over me more than anything else. That was my framework for my faith journey.
Jon McKenney:That is what I said. And again, faith impacts things. I've never also found anything. You and I are both different faith traditions, and yet I've never found anything that challenged my faith tradition that you've ever given me as well. And people who are good at this can can can help you within your own faith journey too.
Laura Temin:So for me, when I do hypnotherapy, it's not just me in the room. I mean, if you looked in the room, it would be me and the person, but I know that there are things that that come to my mind that don't come from me. They come through me. I feel like like I am divinely guided when when I move into that state with you even though I'm taught not to go into hypnosis. It's a channel.
Laura Temin:Okay? I think of it as a channel, and I think of it as like a channel to God. And I I feel like and believe that I'm not in the room alone. Like, my mentor, I have her lamp. She passed away in 02/2019, and she was like an angel.
Laura Temin:Like, she always knew what to say, and everybody loved her, and everybody said, oh, she's definitely an angel. And it's true. She was she was an angel. And so I have her lamp there, and that could be a hypnotic suggestion that, you know, I'm not alone and that she's guiding me. But I also do believe that more than she it's more than her that's guiding me.
Laura Temin:All the people that okay so now I'm gonna get a little weird here but hey I'm already weird. So I believe that there is the highest part of all of us that when we leave our bodies or when we move from this world or before we ever came to this world and when we go back into being like light and love that that that part of us is wants to do better. That we can't see in our human selves. Like, when I'm pissed off and if I'm pissed off at you, I can't see I'm not loving. I'm I'm just an angry b word.
Laura Temin:I'm because the emotions are running me. And so I'm not my best when I'm angry. People aren't their best when they're desperate. And I do believe that when a person has a narcissistic disorder or any kind of disorder of that type that there is underneath it drivers that we can't see. That I do believe that at some point they wish that they could shift.
Laura Temin:Maybe it takes for them to get to wherever they're they've come from or before they're born or after. But I do feel like when I am in the room with someone that there's God there with me, but there are also all these people who are trying to help that person. I don't know. I I don't I never really explained it so I'm babbling a little bit, but but that it's bigger than me. It's God and all the other people who could help that are throwing thoughts out there that help me to find the right thing to say.
Jon McKenney:Interesting. That's fascinating. You know, the Bible talks about about kind of like this great company of people kinda looking down on earth, and I I think about that as you as you describe it.
Laura Temin:And I also think like, you know, again, you know, John, that I have my school of hypnosis. And for me, this is what I believe about that, that it isn't just my school. It was my mentor school, but it isn't even just her school. It's all the people before her and all the people who will come after who are wanting to make sure that that people are equipped to do this work with the highest outcome for the for the client. And so I I know it's bigger than me.
Laura Temin:I know that that school is meant to live on in a bigger way because it's not just my school. It's, like, you know, driven by all these people who want the best for everyone. So Yeah. Again, I know that's weird, but that's what I think.
Padideh Jafari:So, I definitely believe in hypnotherapy because there was a time in my life when I was afraid of heights. And the reason why I was afraid of heights, the hypnotherapist kind of went through this with me was because of something that happened, a trauma that happened in my childhood. And so because of that, I was trying to be controlling. And when you're up, you know, I was going on the, golden golden gate bridge with my mom and I couldn't do it. So I had to, like, go to the side and she's the one that encouraged me to do the hypnotherapy and paid for it all because she was, like, so scared that I was so scared.
Padideh Jafari:Anyway, I'm someone that really believes in hypnotherapy. I don't, I do believe that it worked. I don't have a fear of heights anymore. And it really was like I think it was like three to five sessions. And as soon as we figured out why I was in fear and, you know, she told me things like, you're not gonna fall off the bridge.
Padideh Jafari:Like, that's not gonna happen. I remember this, and I was a teenager when I went through hypnotherapy. So if there's someone that's listening and you've read all the books, you've watched the YouTubes, you've followed John and I for many, many years, Consider, you know, maybe this is the next step to your healing recovery journey from the narcissist. So give yourself permission to explore this.
Jon McKenney:Laura, I have to ask you one more question before we call it. Have you ever had a narcissist in your therapy session, and have you ever helped them through narcissistic personality disorder through hypnotherapy?
Laura Temin:I have had I have had narcissists in the room. Not many, but I remember one man. And by the time he came to me, he had he had he had he woke up before he came to me and he was trying to repair. And he didn't really know how. He only he was so apologetic to his partner.
Laura Temin:It was like he woke up and
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Laura Temin:It was a beautiful thing. But by that time, she was so angry. I mean, she was ready to go. Sometimes you can't when you've crossed that line, you can't go back.
Jon McKenney:Right.
Laura Temin:But sometimes that wishful thinking and that desire and the thing that they've been holding out for is now finally there, and can they come back from that? And so so I all I was able to do with that person was, guide them. Like, they would call me because they had come in as a couple, and and he would call me when he couldn't understand something. Right. And I would help him to, like, make sense of it.
Laura Temin:But the other narcissist, other people who are narcissists that were in the room, you know, there weren't a lot of them that they but they weren't I can't even say for sure that they were narcissists. It's not really fair for me to say that. And, really, I have to say that there's someone who I know who had a narcissistic relationship according to him. Again, I haven't met the spouse, but that is what he believes. And and this person now sees everything through those eyes.
Laura Temin:And so everyone who there are these characteristics, this list of things that make a person a narcissist. And if you have one or two of those things, then automatically to this person, they're a narcissist, which is really dangerous for everybody and also for that person. But that's what happens as you get stuck in that box and you see things through those eyes. And so I I don't like when when that just becomes the buzzword and everybody who has a couple of traits or whatever fits in that box. I'm seeing it all over.
Laura Temin:It's completely it's it's just not healthy for anyone to be looking at it
Jon McKenney:that way. There's there's a difference between somebody who's self centered, and everybody has self centeredness in them, and somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder. There's there's a marked difference between two.
Laura Temin:Say he would say, well, you know, well, I think that that spouse is a narcissist. Do they they're a narcissist because do they ever apologize? No. Well, that's a sign of a narcissist. So they they, you know, latch on to a few different things, but not and it comes across very know it only.
Laura Temin:But I know underneath it, it's fear. I know underneath it, it's that their experience, but we always think we're right. We always believe we're right because we feel it. We think that if we feel it, it means it's true. That's the downside to, a label.
Laura Temin:I think we have to be real careful about that.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:We also say that a lot, Laura, on our show that we're not therapists. You know, we give the disclaimer, and somebody could have traits that sound like narcissism, but it's not the full blown one. And so when people come to me as a divorce attorney, you can imagine they know that I've got a podcast. Right? And they're like, my spouse is a narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:Doesn't matter if it's a male or female. I hear this all the time, and I kinda say, well, were they diagnosed? Let's go through some of the traits. You know? And so hopefully now I can send them to you.
Padideh Jafari:But the reality is just because they're toxic doesn't mean that they're a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:But we also don't wanna invalidate their experience. So that's the other thing. So I think it's a fine line for John and I, but we just we are so happy to have you on the show. John has been telling me about you for years now, and he's like, you've gotta meet Laura. You've gotta meet Laura.
Padideh Jafari:So I'm so happy to have you. I mean, John and I, the entire time you were talking, we're, like, shaking our heads yes. Everything you said just really resonated with us and, hopefully, our listeners as well.
Laura Temin:Yep. And so much for, this invitation. And, also, you know, there are so many people who just need a place to vent. They just need, you know, somebody who understands them, and you offer that to them. And so you're doing good things, and keep up
Jon McKenney:with Thank you. And Laura, like she said, she's not just a hypnotherapist. She's a teacher and trainer of hypnotherapists as well. She's the owner of the Professional Hypnosis Institute here in Atlanta. It's the only certified hypnosis institute in Georgia, if I'm correct.
Jon McKenney:State authorized. State authorized. There we go.
Laura Temin:School of Hypnosis.
Jon McKenney:And you can find her there at professionalhypnosisinstitute.com. If you may be interested in a career in hypnotherapy, she's able to go do that. And Laura also does her own therapy as well. You can find her at lauratemin.com, and she's able to go help you there as well. She she has therapy inside the state lines of Georgia and outside its coaching.
Jon McKenney:So you can reach out to her there too. So, we're gonna call it another day, and, and we hope you have a wonderful, wonderful time. Laura, thank you so much as and Padida always as always, thank you so much for your insight and for being here as well. It's been a wonderful time together, and, we'll see you again next time. And, we hope that you have a wonderful day and a wonderful week and stay narcissist free.
Voiceover Artist:Thank you for listening to the narcissist abuse recovery channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handled narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover Artist:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.