Getting Your Board on Board with the Cloud, with Anthony Darden

Show Notes

Some say cloud investments are not meeting their promised ROI potential. Today our guest Anthony Darden speaks about how to sell the vision of moving to the cloud to a board by formulating the proposals as initiatives other departments need to perform better. We also discuss how AI is affecting application development teams and what young college students should consider post-graduation as AI continues to impact the job market.

Conversation Highlights:

[00:07] Intro
[00:33] Discussing the Microsoft lawsuit in Europe
[03:50] Introducing our guest, Anthony Darden
[04:37] How to communicate the value of the cloud
[07:39] Whether the pendulum will swing back to the traditional model
[14:06] Delivering a vision of digital transformation
[19:41] Comparing cloud conversations to infrastructure conversations
[24:30] How AI is impacting IT workflows
[27:47] Advice for students interested in tech
[30:05] A new role within the IT space
[34:19] The biggest (!) debate in the history of our podcast
[36:36] Thoughts on AI-generated resumes
[40:42] Anthony's message to the world  
[42:24] Closing thoughts

Notable Quotes:

"There's one phrase that I think resonates for this conversation. It's that every company is a technology company now. That being said, that means you're touching every corner of your organization." Anthony Darden [18:44]
"Look around, everything's changing. So you either adapt and adopt or you kind of age out. And that's kind of what we're seeing." Aaron Bock [31:39]
"Listen to your coworkers, be empathetic. Not everything requires a snarky reaction in return. I just think we need to get back to that. And I think we would all be better off both personally and professionally." Anthony Darden [42:08]

What is IT Matters | Tech Solutions and Strategies for Every Industry?

Welcome to the Opkalla IT Matters Podcast, where we discuss the important matters within IT as well as the importance of IT across different industries and responsibilities.

About Opkalla:
Opkalla helps their clients navigate the confusion in the technology marketplace and choose the technology solutions that are right for their business. They work alongside IT teams to design, procure, implement and support the most complex IT solutions without an agenda or technology bias. Opkalla was founded around the belief that IT professionals deserve better, and is guided by their core values: trust, transparency and speed. For more information, visit https://opkalla.com/ or follow them on LinkedIn. 

Unknown: Welcome to the IT
Matters podcast, where we

explore why IT matters and
matters pertaining to IT. Here's

your host, Aaron Bock.

Aaron Bock: Welcome back to the
show. This is our 12th episode.

We're excited to have you.

Keith, how have you been doing?

Keith Hawkey: I've been doing
wonderful. And I've got some

people on my roof. So hopefully
they're not too loud. I'll try

to mute when they're not. When
I'm not talking.

Aaron Bock: Well, if it was
December, then we would think

it'd be Santa Claus. So at least
we know it's Christmas in July.

Hey, Keith. You know, since our
last time we kind of talked a

lot about IT trends and what's
going on in technology. And I

wanted to bring something up
before our episode today that we

have, that's going to be a
really great episode. Have you

seen the latest news out of
Europe with Microsoft and then

looking at the monopoly on
teams, it's an interesting

lawsuit that's coming together.

Basically, Slack, which is part
of Salesforce now has brought a

case against Microsoft, that
there's a monopoly in their

Teams product, because they're
basically forcing users to

download it, and not explaining
the proper costs. And I think

it's going to be an interesting
one for us to follow with all

the Microsoft adoptions, phone
conversations that we see people

talking about going to Teams, I
just think it's gonna be a

really interesting case, because
I've been saying for years, I

don't know how Microsoft is not
a monopoly. And now it's finally

being tried in Europe.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, those
Europeans always like to pick on

our tech companies. I know that
for sure. We have a, you know,

typically, the legislation like
starts over there. And then it

eventually migrates over to the
US, but maybe that's because who

holds the stakes? But yeah,
that's interesting. I mean, it's

it's not it's been going on for
a long time with Microsoft as

far as the ambiguity and all the
different licensing and now how

complicated it can be. And you
know, Microsoft being a

monopoly, I don't think it's
necessarily a new concept to

anybody. Maybe they're just good
at what they do. So I'm excited

to see how that lawsuit turns
out to see if it impacts the

market.

Aaron Bock: Yeah. Well, Keith,
why don't you get us started. By

the way, I think I forgot to
introduce Keith today, Keith

Hawkey, co host of the IT
Matters podcast has been, he

joins us in the last five or six
episodes, and we're happy to

have him he's brought a new life
to this podcast. So why don't

you introduce we have an
exciting guest today, and

Keith's gonna kick us off.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah. Thanks,
Aaron. Really appreciate it.

Today, we had an exciting guest
with a background in supporting

IT with globally distributed
manufacturing enterprises. He

says that some cloud investments
aren't reaching their promised

ROI potential. Is he right?

Also, with large language model
AI? Is it going to be a boon or

a bust? When it comes to
application development work? Is

it going to take our jobs? Who
knows? We'll find out. And how

should a team leader this
leading an application

development team approach
introducing AI into their

workflows? I would like to
introduce to you my friend

Anthony Darden, who is currently
the CIO of protective

Industries, a global
manufacturer of plastic

protective components with over
21,000 active customers and the

automotive medical energy and
industry segments around the

globe. Welcome to the podcast,
Anthony.

Anthony Darden: Thanks. Thanks.

Thanks for having me. Appreciate
the time.

Keith Hawkey: Excellent. Well,
why don't you? Can you tell us a

little bit about yourself? I
know, I know, again, gave an

intro but I never seem to hit
the mark.

Anthony Darden: Sure. So I've
been in IT, man, uh, you know,

you blink and you feels like,
it's amazing how fast time goes

by I've been in IT roughly 30
years, started out in

application developments, slowly
work my way up into leadership.

And then my current role. I've
been with protective industries

now 10 and a half years. Seen
lots of changes, focused a lot

on acquisition activity, just
virtualization and helping my

company transform what was
traditionally your tech support,

keep the lights on function to a
business partner. And that's

been an incredible journey. And
there's still plenty of work to

do.

Keith Hawkey: Yeah, there
certainly is plenty of work.

And, you know, in our previous
conversations you've mentioned

especially with the advent of
COVID, and moving infrastructure

over two or more cloud service
delivery model, how the promise

of cloud was certainly exciting
a few years ago, but some

organizations and some
leadership aren't realizing the

ROI. And then now that contracts
are coming up, if you signed a

three year contract in the
beginning of COVID, you have

these renewals coming up and
you're having to explain to your

leadership, was the investment
worth it? Is this the direction

we want to go? Shall we peel
back in some way? Shall we move

forward in others? In your
experience, you've been in IT

for a long time, how should it
leaders conceptualize and get

the vision across the leadership
when it comes to these types of

investments? What are some of
the caveats that you've seen?

Anthony Darden: Yeah, there's
two parts to it. Right. So IT,

leaders tend to wear many
different hats and I would say

that a marketing hat certainly
is in play here. Because there's

the there's the act of selling,
why cloud will have its benefits

and the cautions that are very
real. Otherwise, you know, I

look at I refer to cloud as a
money pit. Leaky bucket. I mean,

there's, you have to have your
arms around it. But then when

you execute the strategy, you
know that that requires a team

partnerships. I always recommend
you never go it alone, meaning

if you've fully internalize it,
there's some risk there, too.

But it starts with getting the
leadership on board, and I look

at cloud as a freight train,
nothing's going to stop it. Same

with AI. And I will touch upon
that later. And by freight

train, I mean, this is where
every vendor, every software

provider wants 100% cloud
business. They don't want that

on prem model anymore. They
don't want a concurrent user

model. Everything's named user.

So in our organization, we
previously had 204 concurrent

user license that served up to
600 different employees. Well,

now, now we need 600 named user
licenses. And that annuity is

very attractive to vendors. So
every month, they're getting

that same fee for every named
user. And we're seeing

traditional on prem now, I call
it old school models of

licensing, like some of the
design engineering software

providers, they're even coming
on board with "Whoa, no you just

can't buy the software or just
do a regular maintenance

agreement, now it's a named user
license and subscription."

Alright, so let me know, I want
to make sure I'm hitting home

your question here.

Keith Hawkey: No, that's, that's
excellent insight to,

particularly the vendor
incentive to move toward a cloud

model.

Aaron Bock: Really quick.

Anthony, you know, like you said
in the beginning, you know,

it's, it's crazy how you look
up, and you've been in IT for a

long time. We were in
mainframes, we were back

distributed, and now we're
coming back to the cloud, like,

what do you, do you think the
pendulum swings again? Do you

think we eventually ever go back
to the maybe maybe not the

perpetual model of the way it
was built, but the non

consolidated model that we're in
right now?

Anthony Darden: Fantastic
question. And I think this is

other large companies that, they
have their hands in this pie, if

you will. And that's the
infrastructure and your telecom

providers to reach this vision
of cloud everywhere, no matter

what you're doing, you got to
have a solid backbone, solid

infrastructure. You still have
these rural locations where

companies are, and if your only
option is satellite internet, or

some, I don't want to say analog
lines, I feel like that's gone

now. But if it's a weak
connection, you're simply going

to be crippled as a business. I
mean that just can't happen. And

you'll see large user base
populations like Microsoft Great

Plains that have because of the
sheer volume, and number of

customers that are on Great
Plains, really starting to push

back on Microsoft. So I look at
all these things as deferments.

I don't see any stopping. You
mentioned the pendulum swinging

back, I think if if I tried to
go back, or if I tried to think

ahead longer than three to five
years, I'm, I'm crazy. Because

as you know, IT can shift in a
moment's notice. But I just

don't see how that pendulum
swings back because

infrastructure is improving. I
mean, there's fiber initiatives

all around my county that I live
in. So that's going to keep

strengthening, and that just
feeds the case of cloud and

these companies are good at
marketing their products. I get

the concept of "Well, you don't
need database administrators,

you don't need infrastructure
people to manage." But if I look

at our organization, before
cloud was a thing, I walked into

a situation where there were
three tall racks, just all these

physical servers and now it's
down to half a rack with virtual

hosts. Because there's still
some on prem stuff we run, you

know, so the manage and the
tools keep getting better, you

know, the virtualization tools
and the data management tools.

So it's kind of a false pretense
to say, "Well, if you go to

cloud, you don't have to worry
about database administration,

you don't have to worry about
the infrastructure costs that

come with it." Because if you do
a side by side comparison, cloud

subscriptions versus managing
your own infrastructure, I'm

telling you, Cloud is expensive.

Now there is, if I'm a local
dentists office with a handful

of users, okay, I can probably
get there, that cloud is worth

it. And I'm not I'm not
degrading cloud. I mean, I'm,

I'm all in, I'm just telling
you, you're going to, as a

company, you're going to spend
more, and you have to really

have your arms around it. But
back to your point of "Will the

pendulum swing back?", I don't
see it man because when they got

you, they got you. And it's a
lucrative annuity that these

vendors now have.

Aaron Bock: Yeah, I'm with you,
I don't think it's gonna swing

back. I think I've heard so many
times, you know, it's just a

matter of time, the pendulum
will swing back, we always do. I

don't see how we swing back from
this one just because of the

whole the financial model around
it and because of like you said,

the annuity is so valuable to so
many people outside of IT in the

in the financial world, which
seems to drive our world. I

just, I don't see how you how it
swings back but I think it will

be an interesting trend to
follow. So.

Anthony Darden: And the other
thing, too, is, and this is

where I do tip my hat to the
cloud. And that and I know,

again, we'll talk about but but
the introduction of AI, and

other resource intensive
technologies, where the cloud

gives you that theoretically,
limitless power and bandwidth,

so they can introduce those
things with ease, and they do

keep increasing the value of
your subscription. But it's also

one of those false flags as to
why they tell you, you should

invest in cloud because they'll
rattle off 50 features, I'm

like, look, I just need two
features to run my business, I

know, I understand you have all
this cool shit out there. But

for me to run my business, I
need these five things. Maybe 10

more will come into play for me
in time, but that's not why I am

subscribing to you or what
drives my business. So you got

to kind of weed through the all
the marketing and buzz that

comes with it and really focus
on what do I need out of this

subscription?

Keith Hawkey: I tell you one
thing I have noticed more and

more recently is the edge
computing model, which is a

little bit of a different
delivery. It has to do with the

technology innovation of small
form factor infrastructure, that

doesn't require a lot of
maintenance. And, you know, with

with your experience managing IT
for from a global perspective,

is that something that you've
been seeing in your industry,

with your organization or your
customers?

Anthony Darden: Yeah, we have.

And I yeah, I think your points
are fair, it is small form light

touch. But I see that, you know,
I see that happening regardless,

like I just, very simple
analogy, you know, back to my my

rack example, you know, when I
first joined the company. I

mean, just IT footprints in
general continue to get smaller

and easier to manage. So, I do
like the optimization

technologies that are in place,
because again, as a global

organization, you need to be
connected in some way. China's

another topic altogether, but
but there are connectivities,

and you got to secure and lock
it down and and keep things

efficiently moving as possible
while protecting the

organization. That's a that's a
delicate tightrope to walk. So

yeah.

Keith Hawkey: It seems that the
leadership of companies, the

boards, the CEOs that are
charged with overseeing the

digital transformation of the
organizations are on board from

just from a mental level to move
toward the cloud and move toward

more of a digital transformation
for the organization. But the

practical blocking and tackling,
the financial overview, and how

this impacts the different
business departments and how it

helps the bottom line and
generate revenue. It can be a

difficult conversation with from
a CIO who's typically more more

of a technical person. So what
are some of the tips and tricks

that you might offer an IT
leader that's trying to deliver

this vision of digital
transformation, moving toward

the cloud to a board.

Anthony Darden: So it starts
with having a CEO that

recognizes, you know, the
benefits of this, or the

inevitable future since I kind
of alluded to that before, I was

saying a freight train. That
helps. Not everybody will be

fortunate enough to have a CEO
that's, that's tech minded or

tech aware, and but if there's
trust in IT leaders, you know,

you hope that that she or he
will be supportive of that as a

starting point. The good news
for companies and leaders like

us is that boardrooms are fully
aware of this. They are talking

about it. The number of EY and
PWC events that I've attended,

or been privy to, or invited to,
it's all cloud and AI, and I

mean, everybody's talking about
it. So I feel like at a board

level, there's not much of a
battle to be had, but executing

a strategy, once you get down to
the CEO, that's where you have

some of your challenges may
exist. A couple things to throw

out there. I mean, one, if you
think about, you know, how you

sell this vision, there are, I
mean cloud does shift the

strategy from being capex and
cash intense outlay to get

infrastructure and systems in
place to more of that

subscription model. So if you're
a company that really has a

tight stranglehold on cash, I
mean, there, that's certainly

appealing if you're just selling
go pure subscription. But

there's also a staff element to
it before. I mean, I mentioned

how earlier, where you don't
necessarily need your database

administrators, whether you're
cloud or not, but there is still

some cloud benefits in terms of
supporting it. Because now it's

the vendor. Now you'll have more
throats to choke as an IT leader

so you may be playing admin and
chief, if you have, and the

average the average cloud
systems to an organization,

based on my research is anywhere
between 10 and 12. So you got 10

to 12 different systems in play,
well, it's 10 to 12 different

support areas, potentially, that
you have to manage. But at the

end of the day, you may have an
internal team of folks there is

some attrition to be recognized.

Now, this is not all cost play
here because when you think

about ROI, when it comes to the
cloud, a trap that you can fall

into is the ROI of doing an ERP
upgrade, or ERP implementation

or securing the business. To me,
these are two things that are,

thou shalt. I mean, it's just a
cost of doing business. If

you're going down the ROI path
of why we're going to implement,

you know, business central SAAS
as an ERP system. I mean, you're

you're in for a tough road. I
mean, you just don't, it's

impossible, I think. But there
are some benefits to focus on,

for example, the AI elements
that that help with running an

organization, I mean, to me,
that's where you have an ROI

discussion, and you get the
benefits that are very clear.

And what you need to do is
partner with your internal

stakeholders, this can't just be
a conversation with your CFO and

CEO, you got to go to your
commercial leaders, you got to

go to your operational leaders,
your marketing leaders, because

this technology, these cloud
solutions touch every part of

the organization. There's one
phrase that I think resonates

for this conversation is that
every company is a technology

company now. That being said,
that means you're touching every

corner of your organization. So
partner with your stakeholders,

you get them excited, you
participate in demos, and now

you're a team and you have a
much more compelling story that

helps bubble up and sell what
these benefits are. Because if I

look at different companies that
I deal with, everyone has some

element of CRM, or some kind of
mobile app or go online to sign

up. I mean, it's it's it's in
our face. And you look at the

manufacturing efficiencies that
come with, you know, solutions,

and you mentioned the
digitalization initiatives. I

mean, it's evidence. So I do
feel like it's an easier sell

than it would have been, you
know, three, four years ago.

Aaron Bock: Hey, Anthony, it's
interesting. And I kind of want

your take on this, because
you're talking about, we're

talking about the cloud
adoption, which by the way, just

hit a half trillion dollars in
the last few few months, which

is incredible. But what's
interesting to me is when we

have this conversation about the
cloud, and you compare it to

what the conversations were
about infrastructure, people

viewed infrastructure as servers
storage network. It sat there,

it ran my company, it's back
office, blah, blah, blah, the

CIO role was more internal
facing as like kind of a part of

the the organization not driving
revenue. But when you're talking

about the cloud, and this is
wherE I think people don't

understand, when you're talking
about the cloud, you're talking

about AI, you're talking about
tooling that's helping the

organization do things in HR,
you're talking about doing

things in the products, in the
business, the cloud has that and

I think that's the piece of
selling it. Like if you have a

board member who's Pro Cloud,
great, that helps it. But when

you're not sure, the
organization doesn't have a

clear champion, selling that
value is the piece that I think

is different between the
traditional infrastructure model

of just cap expert topics, and
the tooling and the native

abilities in the cloud. And so
I'm curious, like, how do you

how do you talk about the cloud
differently than you talk about

infrastructure that you used to?

And you just kind of did with
AI? But I'm curious how else

you're doing it?

Anthony Darden: Well, two of our
strongest competitors have

enterprise class, best in class,
e commerce, web facing

platforms. When I asked our
commercial team, what are they

seeing, as far as the
competition goes, e commerce

comes up a lot. Now, we've been
underway with E-comm projects

and initiatives and upgrades for
the last five years, but it's

one of those to your point, you
know, it's not all about

infrastructure and staff
attrition, I mean, there are

real benefits to be had. So, I
mean, everybody knows Amazon,

right? Every, you know, and the
and the behemoth that they are,

but competition in your own
business, you look at that and

in the case of us, we have some
very strong web facing, you

know, competitors that have
amazing sites, and our customers

are not always wanting to pick
up the phone. I mean, they they

want to have some self service
capabilities. And if you think

about a robust feature rich
website, and E commerce

experience for that customer,
it's not just placing an order,

it's managing their payments,
looking at their order history,

doing some reporting, things
that a phone call conversation

will not satisfy or end in "I'll
get back to you, let me take

some notes, and I'll send you an
email with some attachments,"

right. Customers are becoming
used to that 24/7 customer

service experience. So that
alone is a driver. And that and

that's when you talk about
bringing in additional revenues

and helping to and a feature
rich ecommerce site running

24/7. You do have the benefits
of cost savings there. But to

me, that's just a small piece of
it, because you're giving your

customers so much more at their
disposal. And, you know, with

with their timelines in mind.

Keith Hawkey: It sounds like to
me, historically, the IT

department has approached
leadership and says, to say this

is what the IT department needs.

But the conversation is shifting
to where they can say, this is

what the marketing department
needs. This is what the HR

department needs. And
ultimately, this is what our

customers expect of us. We want
to remain competitive.

Anthony Darden: And I'll put a
little twist on that because you

don't want to in all cases, not
in all cases, but you don't want

it to be an IT initiative. You
know, I look at it and you were

touching on this. But this is a
this is a marketing initiative

that IT plays a key role in it.

That's where, that's where I
look at that having that kind of

collaboration, marketing hat as
an IT leader. Because the last

thing, especially in operations,
that can be a different breed.

The last thing you want is
operations feeling "Well IT is

forcing this solution down our
throats." So being able to

collaborate and come to an
epiphany together, man, that's

powerful. Because now you have
to implement these solutions.

And now, now change management
is front and center. And you

know, the difference between a
successful project and a painful

one that happened to launch 12
months later, is successful

change management.

Keith Hawkey: Exactly. Speaking
of change management, AI, you

can't escape it, it's all over
the news, it's in your face.

You've you've led application
development teams, how is AI you

might be able to speak to
impacting the workflows of IT

teams that you see today? Maybe
particularly when it comes to

global manufacturing
organizations? I'm sort of

throwing this up and allowing
you to approach it any way

possible because there's a
plethora of angles to address AI

and give it some life. So I
guess we could start when it

comes to application development
teams. How do you see AI

impacting their workflows over
the next six months to a year

considering your, your
background?

Anthony Darden: You're all
fired. No.

Aaron Bock: But seriously.

Anthony Darden: Yeah, yeah, no,
it's, that's the knee jerk

reaction to this, right, because
I sat in the sessions with

Microsoft watching, you know,
40% of an application

environment be spun up with AI.

And then the human comes in to
kind of refine, polish, finish.

So the knee jerk reaction is
this is going to, I'll be out of

a job. Now, if you are a lean
team, and I feel like lean is

baked in the cake, in the
American cake for sure, where we

want to do more with less and
then thank you for a great year,

what are you going to do for me
next year, without any chance of

exhaling? You know, I don't
necessarily see that as this

apocalyptic job killer. But if
you're a large insurance

company, or a bank, and you have
teams of developers and teams of

content creators, I do think
that there there is some real

attrition coming because you
can, and we do leverage AI to

help tee up work. And then, you
know, someone comes in to help,

to help finish it up. But you
know, we have a small team, a

small development team, and I
don't see, all I see is

enhancing them a lot and
allowing some of that mundane

setup and work to be handled,
and allowing them to focus on

the on the real fruit that
they're creating here. But I do

think, I do think there is going
to be attrition on some level,

and you always hear, you know,
well in it during the Industrial

Revolution, and there's always
historical call outs where we

thought the, the, you know, the
sky was falling, and mass

unemployment is coming. But I
just can't see how whatsoever,

what will these people be
repurposed to do? I don't know.

I mean, this is where we got to
play it out. Right. But for

sure, AI properly harnessed,
it's a key term there, properly

harnessed, is going to, you
know, either defer hiring or, or

reduce headcount in some with
these larger teams.

Aaron Bock: So I agree with you,
quick question. If you have a

student, if you're, if you're a
parent, you're raising a 15 year

old going through and they're
interested in something in the

tech field. What do you tell
that student to go to in this

space now? Because it's
interesting, like we were

telling people to go to
development, like less than 10

years ago. And now like, we're
saying, hey, development is sort

of potentially going to get cut
because of AI? I think it's a

really interesting question, but
I'm curious what you would

answer and what you would advise
a 15 or 16 year old going into

the space.

Anthony Darden: Cybersecurity
still remains the top of the

list for me, and I think the
proliferation of AI only ups the

importance of roles like that,
because now your cyber threats,

you know, can become even
smarter, as far as far as trying

to get into an infiltrate and,
you know, so I see that as COVID

proof, technology proof, career
path. Development, I mean, if I

look at, you know, I'm a
Microsoft shop, so I tend to

always go there, but you know,
their power platform, their

suite of AI tools, Microsoft
fabric, Viva sales, copilots. I

mean, there's a lot of
technology out there. That

still, there's still the
purposeful intent to have human

beings as a part of the process.

I mean this technology is
helping to cut out some of the

admin and some of the governance
areas that may come with it, so

I do still think the development
space is at least again, I hate

to project out far, but I do
still see it as a reputable

space to the former career path.

And if anything else you think
about, again, I just mentioned

four new tools from Microsoft,
that's not going to stop. I

mean, these tools are going to
keep coming and you need people

to, to manage and develop it and
build it and support it and so I

don't really see that as much as
a threat. And I certainly see

cyber remaining strong.

Aaron Bock: I'm going to
speculate something I think is

going to be more needed. And I'm
not sure if it's a new role or

new position inside of a
company. But like, I grew up as

a, I was a finance major, and I
went through and it was very

finance focused. We never, I
think we had one class that was

around information technology
and then like, all of a sudden,

I get, I was at PWC and I get
into like, basically a full IT

role with being like part of
accounting. The people inside

the business that can speak both
languages are so much more

valuable than ever before
because if you have someone in

your finance department and like
accounting is an industry under

a lot of scrutiny right now with
like, the way it's been done for

years, but like, "Can we do it
more efficiently?". The people

that can look at that, that
business process and say, "Have

we looked at this and how
technology can actually help us

and we can use technology and
harness it well, without it

being without it coming from the
IT department always?", those

people are so much more
valuable. And so I don't know

what that major is necessarily,
is it a business major with an

IT focus? Or is it an IT focus
with a minor in business or

whatever part of the business,
you're working in chemistry or

science or something like that,
I just think that there's going

to be a lot of value for those
people continuously, because

they know how to kind of look at
it holistically. And that's

where we see people aging out or
or aging is not the right word,

but like, they're not willing to
change, but like, look around,

everything's changing. So you
either adapt and adopt or you

kind of age out. And that's kind
of what we're seeing.

Anthony Darden: Yeah, man, those
are all great points, because

and remember what I said
earlier, right, every company is

a technology company. And, and
just go to your local auto

dealership and test drive the
latest electric model. When

you're sitting inside of a
computer, you see your corner

garage, that's another another
attrition point. They either

adapt or die and and you can
argue that you know these

automotives want you going to a
sanction, GMs repair shop or I

mean, it's everything is
computerized. So I don't look at

now, one end of the spectrum is
okay, if every company is a

technology company, then every
problem is an IT problem. You

know, and that's not, that's not
true at all. And you touched

upon this, the skill sets,
whether you're in ops or

marketing or finance, is you
have to have some IT competency

about you. I think the baseline
is moving across organizations

as a whole as an employee and
the skill set you bring. And

that's why I think you know,
anything, in IT is going to have

its legs, but you are becoming
more of a business minded

employee and not just keeping
the lights on employee and you

think of traditional IT. So
becoming a more rounded, more

robust, more, more of a business
partner is is critical,

especially in IT leadership. If
if you're going into it thinking

you're just purely IT, and
you're kind of behind the

curtain, I'm not so sure you're
in the right, in the right

career.

Keith Hawkey: What do you do
when you have a bright employee

that is of the other technical
ilk, and they're used to solving

computational problems. And you
want to bring this new employee

up into being a more well
rounded, charismatic leader that

can speak to the business, can
speak to the business problems?

How do you introduce them into
you know, it's almost because

you're solving people problems.

And you're solving with
technical solutions is the way I

think about it.

Anthony Darden: Yep. That Yeah.

I don't know why think just I go
right to, is there even a value

for college degree in Management
Information Systems anymore? I

mean,

Aaron Bock: Warning- This, this
podcast has now gotten very,

into the biggest debate of all
time, but keep going.

Anthony Darden: Yeah. Yeah.

Don't go to school and you're
all fired. So I go by the happy

hour method for interviews. I
want you to have a small

technical foundation. But you
need to be able to survive a

happy hour, meaning if you can
demonstrate social skills and

you know, sense of humor, and
can you read the room so, that's

the other thing, group
interviews around the table. I

know we're in this digital age
and we're on Teams and Zoom and

remote work is here and hybrid
for sure. I don't see that going

anywhere, but if there is, but
there needs to be a group

interview on some level, because
you have different person and

purposeful, different
personalities and and age around

that interview and how does this
candidate adapt and react? And

as you can say, you can have the
same conversation with five

different people, and it's going
to be five different paths you

go down, because so so can they
be that chameleon? That's very

important to me, because anybody
on my team, you're going to be

working with folks in the
business and, you know, we

talked earlier about you kind of
have that marketing hat on and

that partnership, so people
skills, I would say, minimum 50%

importance than the actual
technical talent you're bringing

in. Because I don't care what
you learned in school, or what

you did. I mean, it's gonna
demonstrate your work ethic and

your ability to manage time,
that's all well and good. But

usually the technology that's in
a place, it's, it's ground zero

learning, you know, so I want to
make sure you have the drive and

the people skills before you're
offered anything with our

organization.

Keith Hawkey: When AI becomes
compelling in the people skill

area, that's when we're really
in trouble. It seems that they

have a compelling converse, when
we're having a conversation with

an artificial intelligence, and
we feel delighted or charmed by

them, we're in trouble you know.

Right now, it's, we can kind of
keep them in their technical

box.

Anthony Darden: Yes. And we're
getting resumes that are ChatGPT

generated, I'm positive of it,
because you read them, and

they're just chock full of
buzzwords and things that really

have no bearing whatsoever, you
know, Windows Server 2003, you

know, I mean, it's like, whoa,
wait a minute, you know. And you

mentioned kids, 15 year olds, I
worry about, like, I can't

navigate a city, without Siri
telling me where to turn, you

know, so I've kind of dumbed
myself down in terms of

retaining, how do I get from
point A to point B, you think

about these essays and these
long projects, I can just go to

chat GPT get me 80% there, and
then put my 20%, you know, flair

on it and submit it? I don't
know, I worry about it.

Aaron Bock: This is the debate.

I think that's interesting, in
some ways, right, you hate to

see that resumes coming into
your, your IT department or

whatever that is chat GPT
generated. But the other hand,

you're saying, well, this person
is actually trying to use AI for

their good, for their own good
or for whatever. So I assume

they would apply that logic
elsewhere. And, you know, we

hire all the time, and I debate
on like, well, is that a bad

thing? Right? Like, that's like
the classic? Like, do you take

the test with no information?

But when else in your life do
you take a test without the

information? So like, let's make
it more realistic, like, and I'm

kind of on the fence with this
one, because I kind of think

like, well, that person might be
more willing to kind of use

technology for the good.

Anthony Darden: You know, you
kind of 180-ed me there. That's,

you know, so I would almost, I
can see a path of, alright,

we're going to interview this
person, and we're going to ask

them, so did you just ChatGPT
it? And they said, yeah, yeah

what did you think? Hmm, I might
continue that conversation. You

know, first of all, you're
owning it. Second of all, you

have a sense of humor, because
you're engaging in this, and

you're not all panicked, and you
know, deer in headlights. And

then you get a sense of this
person's true capabilities and

personality that you know what
they are, and that's a great, I

love that point.

Aaron Bock: Well, and it's
interesting, because I've heard,

I've heard a million times from
IT folks saying, like, I get

these people who come in the
door, and the resume's chock

full of like, Windows Server
expert, or, you know, you said

you're a Microsoft shop, so like
Azure, blah, blah, blah, and

maybe they pass a cert
somewhere, maybe they didn't,

but like, without it, you know,
you could check certs, you can

check where they came from, it's
hard to know, their knowledge

base. And so I do agree with
you, if you're just putting

stuff on a resume, that is just
totally a lie, well, that's a

problem. But if you're, if
you're trying to use technology

to say yeah, like, I know,
Azure, and this is my, this is

how I use it and I'm using AI to
help me learn it, blah, blah,

blah. I'm kind of like, well,
that person's gonna really help

me long term so I want that
person on my team.

Anthony Darden: Yeah. Yeah I'm
on board with that.

Keith Hawkey: And the follow up
for the interviewee is, let me

tell you about the prompts that
I used to put this together.

Right. So that's, you want this
kind of person this, if you're

not using AI, you're you're left
behind. So as long as it's not

completely fabricated and it
does have your personal touch

and you are able to wield it to
your your goals and initiatives,

then it's a strike. We do have
one last question for you,

Anthony. We're wrapping up here.

And let's say, all over the
world, every screen, your phone,

your laptop, every monitor every
television screen, Anthony

Darden has a message to convey
to the world, could be about IT,

could be about something else,
what message would you like to

impart to the humans of this
earth? What would you do?

Anthony Darden: It's good
question. Embrace empathy comes

to mind. I, one thing my career
has taught me is, you can't just

solve every problem with a
hammer. And I mentioned lean

teams earlier and usually what
comes with lean teams is high

stress. And, folks, you know,
and think about your email

inbox. I mean, if you don't
check your work email for a day,

or you go on vacation, and come
back, I don't know if you ever

truly unbury yourself from that,
and still have a day job. And so

keep in mind that you're not
alone in that, in that capacity,

and you have coworkers around
you that are feeling the same

thing. So when you're having
that project, or you're working

through a challenge, and someone
snaps out at you and I tend to,

I think that ills of social
media, I just feel like it's the

source of so many anger and
triggers and just hatred. It's,

that's another 20 episodes. But
if I think of just the nature

and reactive and polarization
that goes on, I mean, it's not

just tied to social media or
politics. It's also within our

own four walls. So I think we
just need to be I mean, we've

been given two ears and one
mouth for a reason, right? So

listen to your coworkers, be
empathetic. Not everything

requires a snarky reaction in
return. I just think we need to

get back to that. And I would, I
think we would be all better off

both personally and
professionally.

Aaron Bock: That's a great piece
of advice. I love that we we

talk about IT for 90% of the
podcast, yet pretty much every

guest we've had has, when we've
asked them this question,

they've given a very human piece
of advice, which is embrace

empathy, here from Anthony. And
I think we all could use that

whether it's specifically around
IT, what we've talked about or

not. So Anthony, this was this
was great having you on the show

really enjoyed the conversation
today. I know you took the time

out of your schedule, and you're
you're busy so we appreciate

that. I know our listeners will.

Anthony, anything else that
you'd like to share how people

can get in touch with you? Any
closing thoughts?

Anthony Darden: No, no closing
thoughts. And thank you for

having me on your show I really
enjoyed it. I just love having

conversations with other IT
leaders and thought leaders in

this space, so always an
enjoyable conversation. And

again I do appreciate it and I'd
love to reciprocate, have you,

have you on CIO lifeline at some
point in the future and continue

the fun.

Aaron Bock: Yeah, we forgot to
mention this in the beginning

but check out, Anthony is also a
podcaster, the CIO Lifeline,

they publish it on YouTube. So
check it out if you get a

chance. Anthony, thanks for
joining the IT Matters podcast

and I hope you have a great rest
of the week.

Anthony Darden: Thanks guys much
appreciated.

Aaron Bock: Alright, have a
great one guys.

Unknown: Thanks for listening.

The IT Matters podcast is
produced by Opkalla an IT

advisory firm that helps
businesses navigate the vast and

complex IT marketplace. Learn
more about Opkalla at

opkalla.com.