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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;17;27
Chris
Hey, everyone! Welcome. How's it going, dude?
00;00;17;29 - 00;00;21;02
Pri
Phoning in. Live from Toledo, Ohio. Here.
00;00;21;03 - 00;00;25;15
Aaron
Oh, yeah. How's Toledo? How's the big opening? You want to take it up for everyone?
00;00;25;19 - 00;00;52;04
Pri
Yeah, I will, I will. So the, Island Howard collection canvas. I think a couple others came together and worked with the Toledo Museum to put together an incredible, like, algorithm show. And the open. I'm here for the opening, which was yesterday, and there's, like, all day programing today and spend some time looking at the show. Had like a tour this morning.
00;00;52;07 - 00;01;17;24
Pri
It's like, honestly the best display of this work that I think I've seen ever. I'll kind of outline why I just, I feel like the, the layout of the actual show, it's really quite nice. It's like these different rooms, different elements of history, different artists that kind of fit in each room or each like kind of corner. The quality of the work is, is great.
00;01;17;24 - 00;01;40;09
Pri
So you have it kind of starts with like very minor and and solid and then it, you know, eventually goes into like our favorites of our blocks. So they have Tyler Hobbs, Dimitri Cherny arc. And then from there you see this amazing glitch box that Duff made. It's actually like this physical glitch box, which probably is one of my favorite pieces of of the show so far.
00;01;40;09 - 00;02;10;05
Pri
But yeah, there's like exactly Ramon you him sprawled and people and and it just kind of covers a lot of ground and I think it's like very well exhibited. Just even like esthetically like, you know, they've put all the wires into the walls, the paint, even the backsplash of like the digital work. So it's like in a dark setting, the quality of the screens kind of nicely pairing the static printed work, with plotters, with screens, it doesn't feel like overwhelming.
00;02;10;05 - 00;02;33;06
Pri
And I think it also there's so much work, but it it feels very digestible because you kind of see it across different mediums and it's great. I mean, the it's really nice. It's kind of like not to sound corny, but it is almost like a weirdly emotional moment in a way. Yesterday I was like kind of taken aback, like, well, it's almost exactly what, like five years ago, we started really thinking about this stuff.
00;02;33;09 - 00;03;06;22
Pri
And I remember like, even five years ago, you know, Aaron, you were like, talking about pulling something together. Chris was two when we were in the lough, and then we ended up launching in October 2020 and obviously the rest is sort of history. But just seeing like the genesis of it and all come together in such an amazing museum like the Toledo Museum, I was like, wow, it's you know, people often say art movements take decades, usually even after an artist has to be fully realized, it feels like the vision is coming together and even a really short amount of time.
00;03;06;27 - 00;03;24;08
Pri
And it's also nice, like being around some of these people that we've known for so long. A lot of them, our friends like, started out as people that were, you know, in a community enthusiastic about the work. And now I feel like a lot of kinship with many of the artists and other curators and collectors. And I feel like there's something really special.
00;03;24;08 - 00;03;43;01
Pri
And I know there was like a lot of thought on the timeline around generative art. But I like came here and I feel like in many ways, like a lot of this stuff is contemporary art, and it's kind of cool to, to see. I yeah, I'm really happy that I came. I think it was like really, really special and, and continues to be but it's it's nice.
00;03;43;03 - 00;03;44;07
Pri
Awesome pictures.
00;03;44;10 - 00;04;05;01
Aaron
Yeah. I mean that sounds great. Yeah. I mean I do think, you know, putting aside what, what's on the timeline like the fact and the speed is pretty unprecedented. It just doesn't align with the, the need for instant gratification that we get. And, in our modern era, not surprising to me that this stuff displays really well.
00;04;05;01 - 00;04;06;06
Aaron
I mean, it's insane.
00;04;06;08 - 00;04;16;17
Pri
Like, the stuff is so great. He made a physical metal glitch box and it looks I like, by the way, I met him, I, I like, have never met him. Oh, yeah. And I actually met him.
00;04;16;18 - 00;04;17;15
Aaron
She was great.
00;04;17;17 - 00;04;26;09
Pri
Yeah. He's great. Brilliant. The glitch box looks amazing. I met him and Lorna mills, who, like, I remember collecting her work.
00;04;26;12 - 00;04;27;02
Aaron
You know, she's great.
00;04;27;08 - 00;04;45;19
Pri
Like four years ago. She's so cool. So it's kind of special to meet these people that I feel like I've interacted with online. And I was talking to bad about this, but it's funny, like a lot of us, like, we'll see each other like once, twice a month that, you know, either an event or something like this. And then you kind of have this like internet timeline engagement and then you kind of like it.
00;04;45;21 - 00;05;11;12
Pri
Yeah. We're constantly like in this communication bubble, which feels like it's gone by very quickly. And now we're here and it feels like a really special show. I talked to multiple people and their takeaway was like, this is this is like setting the bar for how, you know, this work should should be experience. So if I think that this show is going on till November and so if you can like make it out here and it's not like an inconvenience, I think it's worth coming.
00;05;11;15 - 00;05;21;05
Pri
Yeah. And I think there's actually going to be some sort of like public opening thing in September, which I'm like, maybe I'll come back for that, I don't know. But it was it's really cool. It feels like a full circle moment.
00;05;21;07 - 00;05;28;15
Chris
I mean, we could get to Ohio in a day. Why don't we just crank up a massive 90s playlist and, give it a little traction? Road trip.
00;05;28;17 - 00;05;29;16
Aaron
Let's go.
00;05;29;18 - 00;05;30;26
Pri
Yes.
00;05;30;28 - 00;05;35;29
Aaron
But but but, Chris, generative art is dead, so it's even worth it.
00;05;36;01 - 00;05;56;03
Chris
Well, yeah. I mean, that's a good question. I, you know, Chris was being like, so poignant there. I didn't want to be snarky and, you know, imply she was actually attending a funeral. But, you know, that seems in some people's minds, to be the case. Just a quick question before we move on from to from Toledo Tree, did they acquire the.
00;05;56;05 - 00;06;05;08
Pri
No, no, they did not. Why did you see that pole image? I, I there is a pole with work around it, but it looks way more normal.
00;06;05;11 - 00;06;14;02
Chris
I know you just when you were talking about how well it was done, my my mind immediately flashed to the opposite, which, you know, of course, I believe is the terrible.
00;06;14;04 - 00;06;18;20
Pri
Yeah, I remember that. That was so good. Was there like a meme coin for that too?
00;06;18;23 - 00;06;27;15
Chris
If Jacob had his way and everything got coined, I'm sure there was. And I'm sure it's got $12 of liquidity sitting in it right now.
00;06;27;18 - 00;06;45;28
Pri
No, I definitely think though, maybe worth coming back to though. There's also a little section, you know, like, you know, museums have sections for kids to like, interact, engage the art. There's like a little corner where people, you know, kids could draw ringers with colored pencils and like, kind of paste them up. And I thought that was kind of cute, too.
00;06;46;00 - 00;06;54;01
Chris
And tastic. All of this for a movement that is dead, buried, forgotten, just leaving people underwater.
00;06;54;01 - 00;07;08;20
Aaron
Do you think, it this will be like the cause when what's there like hundreds of calls that Bitcoin would be dead, and then it just keeps on plugging along. I wonder if, if we got the first generative art instead, and then I'm just plugging along.
00;07;08;23 - 00;07;10;14
Pri
You know what it is plugging along.
00;07;10;16 - 00;07;17;24
Chris
All right. We've had this conversation before, but yes, let's let's pretend this is a very first time Gen artist died.
00;07;17;27 - 00;07;40;26
Pri
It's like, let's say like bullish. Like the more people say it's over, the more it's like not. And it just persists. I will say, like, you know, outside of the artists and some of the people in our community, there's also many curators from other global institutions, like some in New York and elsewhere. There's some people who like actually not an in material amount of people who flew from like Saudi Arabia to Europe.
00;07;40;28 - 00;08;00;06
Pri
People came from everywhere for this. So and it's interesting, these really people who don't know this world that well but are like curious. And it's ironic that they're curious in a time that, like everyone quote retail that we are familiar with is proclaiming it's over. Like they're starting to get interested. They're like mapping out shows to put in their institutions that relate to this artwork.
00;08;00;06 - 00;08;01;22
Aaron
But are they. Yeah. That was.
00;08;01;22 - 00;08;02;04
Pri
Yeah.
00;08;02;04 - 00;08;11;20
Aaron
That was what I what do you think. Yeah. That's going to be one of the, the things that flows from this, that there's some echoes of this at other institutions around the States.
00;08;11;23 - 00;08;28;01
Pri
So I spoke to, you know, Martina who helped put together, I think they're like ideally like this, this the show travels to other institutions and expands. Yeah, I think I think this is like the beginning of maybe something like an interesting. Yeah, like a interesting show that kind of travels.
00;08;28;04 - 00;08;42;27
Chris
So I mean, when we're done recording, I should go and, put together like a 5050 tweet thread on how Emirati chics are at, at the Toledo and are going to say, of all of us.
00;08;43;00 - 00;08;59;13
Pri
No, no, no, I think it's more just like the curiosity. Okay. Like what's happening with this? This is like a new contemporary form. Like for some people, they're just discovering it. Now. For us, we're like so steeped in it's like the peril of being early. I feel like sometimes you're just like, oh, when is it going to happen?
00;08;59;13 - 00;09;06;05
Pri
And you're like, well, actually, it kind of is like, it feels that way. We're even. I mean, we can transition from Toledo, but like, even.
00;09;06;06 - 00;09;27;09
Aaron
Well, I actually think that I think that's the story like of right now. Right. And we were on kind of a Dow member, member call and one of the members of a bunch of their tributaries made a good point, which is like the rest of the world, is almost like ten years behind, kind of where people that are steeped in this space are.
00;09;27;11 - 00;09;52;29
Aaron
And if you think about it like, really, right now, stablecoins are beginning to gain major adoption. The innovation related to that happened in about 2014 ish, 2014, 2015. So I do think it's like a reasonable pieces that the same kind of adoption and interest will just echo back. It just will happen, you know, ten years later. So probably up next will be like either ICOs or DeFi.
00;09;53;01 - 00;09;57;12
Aaron
Then NFTs, and then some of the newer stuff that we've seen over the past couple of years.
00;09;57;14 - 00;10;16;22
Chris
Yeah, I was having a few conversations around this like, and it's really hard in this day and age to assume, like, hey, we have like any sort of baseline knowledge back in the day, you could kind of that you could talk to someone and be like, well, they're going to know 80% of what I'm talking about. And I just, I don't know.
00;10;16;24 - 00;10;38;00
Chris
As the world gets bigger and moves faster, we get more digital. You know, that that shared common ground is really starting to disappear, and you have no idea what anyone you're encountering, you know, these days, like, is exposed to and what they're interested in, you know, and so finding that common ground is tricky. And then, you know, like, yeah, we live out in the frontier.
00;10;38;00 - 00;11;00;19
Chris
And so what's in our heads is going to be in some portion of the futures heads, you know. Yeah. 510 however many years now. And that's its own whole other thing. And then, you know, this is like on a personal note, I get a lot of free time on my hands. I do a lot of thinking. I come to a lot of things well ahead of everyone in our space.
00;11;00;19 - 00;11;11;26
Chris
And so I'm already bored with it. By the time, you know everyone else is catching up, I you probably caught me declaring gender dead like two years ago. That stock I just.
00;11;12;01 - 00;11;34;03
Aaron
I just looked it up and because there's some site that tracks it on the Bitcoin side, this is through April 2024. There's been about at least according to this service 386 calls that Bitcoin instead. So usually that's like a great signal when people are calling a category or space dead. Yeah. I'll take I'll take the counter to that one.
00;11;34;03 - 00;11;34;24
Aaron
Chris.
00;11;34;26 - 00;11;39;17
Chris
Yeah. So we did have an all time high the other day that what's going on?
00;11;39;22 - 00;11;43;14
Pri
Technically, it's kind of on right now. Don't we are now so happening.
00;11;43;16 - 00;11;44;19
Chris
Look at that.
00;11;44;21 - 00;11;48;05
Pri
What what is the all time. How is it 118 or 119 or. I don't even know.
00;11;48;06 - 00;11;54;03
Aaron
I think it, it peaked at 118 six hours ago. Okay. This 119. Yeah.
00;11;54;05 - 00;11;55;01
Pri
Why?
00;11;55;03 - 00;12;22;15
Aaron
I think it's just, you know, these basic supply and demand, more and more people see that this is getting adopted and installed and, and you know, whatever sell pressure there is, is it just not there anymore. And I think the same thing is beginning to happen with these. I think these these Treasury plays, they work that, you know, just in terms of mopping up demand for, for Bitcoin or channeling some of that demand for, for Bitcoin.
00;12;22;15 - 00;12;41;23
Aaron
And now is, you know, I think putting aside some of the hiccups and the the launch of some of the eath strategy pieces, you know, you're you're going to see more and more innovation there just because, it's going to bring staking. So it's kind of like MicroStrategy with staking I don't know. That's what that'll be my guess.
00;12;41;25 - 00;12;42;24
Aaron
What do you think, Derek.
00;12;42;27 - 00;12;48;01
Derek
Yeah. Sorry about that, guys. Technical difficulties this morning with the numbers going up.
00;12;48;04 - 00;12;50;07
Aaron
That's.
00;12;50;10 - 00;12;54;21
Derek
Yeah. The question is, like why? Why are they.
00;12;54;23 - 00;12;55;26
Aaron
Why all time highs?
00;12;56;00 - 00;13;23;02
Derek
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I feel like you covered it. Well, Aaron. I mean the, the if you just look at like the hard data here, it's the ETFs are seeing kind of like historic inflows. Both the ETH and the spot BTC ETF. I mean it's it's very clear that, you know, the work being done by those who are publicly going out and, and, and chanting the importance of these vehicles as sovereign bearer store value like assets for their respective economies.
00;13;23;04 - 00;13;56;11
Derek
It's like it's a very compelling pitch right now. I think there's like this anticipation around rate cuts. I think, next quarter and kind of moving into a more easing based policy that that is precipitating, some of like the risk on stuff that we like to see, you know, like if, if you talk to like the, the to folks, you know, there are these like, these levels of, of resistance and we've kind of been we've been bouncing like a ping pong, a ping pong ball back and forth between these ranges, both, both Bitcoin and eath over the last 4 or 5 months.
00;13;56;13 - 00;14;16;10
Derek
I mean, we're we're on the other side of, of the of that resistance and hopefully are turning it into support here. And, you know, during the these accumulation phases when like when things are ranging, it's it the market will tell you everything you need to know. It's like very clearly didn't want to go lower. And it was signaling that I wanted to go higher.
00;14;16;10 - 00;14;44;06
Derek
And I think we got we got the move that we needed from a, you know, an institutional perspective. But it was very clear like this was one directional asset over the short to medium term. And then I think probably the biggest piece of news that, you know, folks are anticipating is the SEC and, and, and the Executive office are, are very much signaling, kind of like the that regulatory clarity and legislation is coming and it's coming over the next couple of weeks I think.
00;14;44;06 - 00;15;08;18
Derek
Yeah, both the white House and the SEC were both kind of signaling, this like crypto week nomenclature. I know the, the SEC report that they were mandated to kind of build out is do I think the 22nd of July could come before them? My gut says it comes over the next week and a half. And then we've also got, you know, the genius act and, and and things like this that are they're bringing a ton of legitimacy to the asset class.
00;15;08;20 - 00;15;17;28
Derek
So yeah, I mean, this is like this is your typical multiple convergence of macro factors coming together. And I think that's what's driving prices there.
00;15;18;00 - 00;15;24;14
Aaron
I think that's great point. I also think there's one other thing which is just that big beautiful bill, which is just tons of.
00;15;24;16 - 00;15;26;23
Chris
The destruction of the US dollar. Yes.
00;15;26;23 - 00;15;45;13
Aaron
Yeah. Or just additional capital being injected into the system. So, you know, there's a lot of folks that feel like, you know, I've argued at least semi convincingly that, you know, more money supply in the system that usually has a positive impact on the core based assets. So maybe that's a piece of it too. Derek.
00;15;45;15 - 00;15;52;29
Derek
Yeah, I definitely think that's right. Chris. You were gonna you were going to jump in there with the the death of the dollar chance. Did I hear that correctly?
00;15;53;01 - 00;16;15;01
Chris
And I want to get ahead of things. I mean I think plenty of people have called that the US dollar. But I want to plant my flag there as well. No. I look at the deficit. Right. It's just going to get bigger. They've just codified that idea. And I do think you have to worry about like defrauding, what a dollar's worth these days.
00;16;15;04 - 00;16;40;25
Chris
And so that probably, you know, has a little it's just one more, you know, nudge up the hill here. Even when you got the Ray Dalio's of the world, you know, becoming, crypto curious or you know, the crypto participants. I don't really know where that guy is in the world, but, I mean, you do have to start thinking about, you know, moving out of dollar denominated assets.
00;16;40;25 - 00;17;15;12
Chris
And I do think, like, we'll just leave it there. Right? It's just another brick in the wall. It is nice to finally see some some price momentum. You know, it's one of these things where ETH in particular has been snake bitten for so long that there's in the back of your head, you know, you were starting to think a little bit, maybe nothing really moves this thing, you know, we've had so much positive news for a sustained period of time that has been building up, and to not see that reflected in price was a bit of a head scratcher.
00;17;15;15 - 00;17;30;29
Chris
It's nice that, you know, we finally have a little a little better correlation, you know, a little tighter cause and effect around all of this embrace of crypto actually, filtering back down into the, the asset, you know, value itself.
00;17;31;02 - 00;17;52;11
Aaron
I think, you know, I think the reason for that, though, Chris, is just the price was a lot of sell pressure from different, you know, funds or institutions that that bought a ton of ether out and they were doing their own rotation or distributions or kind of other things related to that. So at some point, you know, that sell pressure just has to go away.
00;17;52;13 - 00;18;00;14
Aaron
I guess now there's just all the traders that have been shorting it. Just need to get blown out of the water. If that happens, you know.
00;18;00;16 - 00;18;26;00
Chris
It'd be nice. Reflexive. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm sick and tired of being like, why the hell is you sitting at $2,400? And then there was a geopolitical event, and then it goes back down to 2200 bucks, and it creeps up to 24 and then gets knocked down again. And then I talked to someone who's a little more sophisticated about all this than me, and they go, oh, well, there's been this delta neutral, blah, blah, blah that, you know, is kept at rangebound and it's just like, oh Lord and mercy.
00;18;26;02 - 00;18;31;27
Chris
Like, yeah, I'll just have number go off. Let's be simple, people.
00;18;32;00 - 00;18;52;09
Aaron
Yeah. But on the number of go ups there are like some other indications like this week we saw like Gary V talk about entities for the first time in what years at least publicly at least that I, I've seen at least historically like as the price of Bitcoin tends to go up. Usually NFTs go second. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be ether NFTs, right.
00;18;52;12 - 00;19;19;14
Aaron
But usually there's like some like very, very loose. And still it'll take a long time to prove some some degree of correlation. But I there are kind of like some soft skill, some soft signs that the ecosystem's beginning to kind of move again, which is good. I feel like we are kind of entering into the RWA era like we we spoken about a little bit here, at length feels like it's hitting an inflection point.
00;19;19;17 - 00;19;28;11
Chris
For, for the we'll do a little, fan fanservice here for the sake of Buna and say RWA man always wins. But, and circle back.
00;19;28;14 - 00;19;29;20
Aaron
And he's winning.
00;19;29;22 - 00;19;32;01
Chris
Yeah, of course he always wins. He's like the how.
00;19;32;02 - 00;19;33;26
Aaron
He can lose. He can't lose.
00;19;33;28 - 00;19;46;15
Chris
No, he is the house. I did Gary V ever really leave NFTs? Like, I felt like he was always been doing it, but he just I don't think he did. His audience in his. Yeah.
00;19;46;18 - 00;20;07;12
Aaron
Yeah I mean I, I bet there's some lessons there like I mean I think v friends just keeps on chugging along. Right. Like it now has like a Pokemon like game. I think he's continued to kind of double down on it, and I think it feels like he's still pretty convicted on the, the need, you know, the need and, long term health of, of NFT, which is pretty heartening.
00;20;07;12 - 00;20;14;09
Aaron
I mean, we've seen some other big personalities kind of run for the Hills, unfortunately. Kudos to him for kind of sticking it out.
00;20;14;11 - 00;20;40;19
Chris
Yeah, that's something I've always thought about. Right. Like the consensus view within the space is you have to embrace the space, and if you don't, you're going to get your projects not going anywhere. The challenge, though, is the space, like the Tam of the space, is pretty damn small, and it's very narrow in terms of, you know, what categories, what what form factors it wants to pay attention to.
00;20;40;19 - 00;21;04;00
Chris
And so, you know, if you're someone who operates like at a certain scale or needs a certain scale for a thing to be meaningful, you're not necessarily going to find that within, you know, our NFT community or crypto in general. And, you know, there was always an assumption that everyone's showing up. And, well, we just went through a bear where a great many people left.
00;21;04;00 - 00;21;30;21
Chris
And so, you know, to to embrace the technology, but, you know, do it for your own audience or to do it in a way that works for you. I do think it's smart and it's something, you know, I've given a lot of consideration to like, you know, you got to remember, like, everyone has like, their own, I don't know, their own boundaries or their own parameters or, you know, like a world they need to work in and a certain scale that makes sense for them.
00;21;30;21 - 00;21;55;00
Chris
And, you know, it's in my head, it's hard to, you know, it's very apples and oranges to say, an independent, generative artist. Exactly. Ramon. Or, you know, say, Rex, you know, like, we'll get off dinner and we'll just move over, like, you know, rekt and what they're doing. Right? Like, that requires like, the, you know, that operates within a certain set of expectations.
00;21;55;00 - 00;22;16;19
Chris
But if you're a Gary Vee who works on a much larger scale, that really isn't going to move the needle for you. You know, like I I'm not out there. I'm not active at the moment. But like, you know, I worked at a much, much larger scale than anything our community can generate. And so it's something I've always been cognizant of and like had in the back of my head.
00;22;16;23 - 00;22;17;00
Chris
It's a.
00;22;17;00 - 00;22;42;15
Aaron
Good point. I mean, I mean, there's echoes of that even with Bitcoin. Right. And like early digital assets like that was the story back then. Right. Like why would a financial institution take a look at something like Bitcoin when the scale was so small, when the liquidity was so thin, right. When, there was still questions related to security and viability and forks and hard forks and all these other kind of complicated concepts.
00;22;42;15 - 00;22;47;17
Aaron
And I feel like maybe it's the same thing on the NFT said, we shall see. I mean, Daryl.
00;22;47;17 - 00;22;48;04
Pri
Is.
00;22;48;07 - 00;22;49;09
Chris
Broken on this one.
00;22;49;09 - 00;22;56;15
Aaron
I think generative art's dead. There. Derek. It's over. I mean, I mean, I could I call it quits.
00;22;56;17 - 00;22;58;23
Derek
Pack it up. I hate, you know.
00;22;58;26 - 00;23;00;07
Aaron
This guy squiggle wrangler.
00;23;00;15 - 00;23;28;00
Derek
It's over. Exactly. The squiggle wranglers ready to go. It's filled with gas. The four of us took turns putting gas in the in the truck, and we're now ready to head out. I my view on the the the conversation is just like it's totally silly and I, I don't yeah I don't the, the the the reality is is like I just think folks get so the bug or feature like every asset in on these ledgers is mark to market.
00;23;28;07 - 00;23;50;05
Derek
There is this opacity around finance, especially finance around collectibles and art. And like traditional meatspace that isn't as confronting as seeing like a wheat field get lower and lower over the years or like, you know, see, a piece of art, you know, traded that is like a third that or, you know, half of the value that you were expecting.
00;23;50;07 - 00;24;23;14
Derek
And I think people get rattled very easily. Like, I think egos are fragile and and people are very short term in how they view the world and value accrual and especially now with, with information just like rocketing around us, like at hyperspeed 24 seven, it's like I, I see a lot of the discussion around the generative art stuff and then also NFTs, probably, and crypto art and take your pick, like at any category of value that's ever existed on Ethereum or Solana or any of these blockchains.
00;24;23;16 - 00;24;44;14
Derek
And it's usually just like within three seconds I can pick out the bias that the poster has around it, and it usually comes down to like them being kind of not totally sophisticated and how they're viewing what it means to actually own or participate in these systems. So when I saw the generative art stuff, I was just like, this is insane.
00;24;44;14 - 00;25;14;25
Derek
Like, this is like the whatever, the 100th iteration of this conversation, but we're just swapping in a new form factor. And today's flavor of the week is generative art. I have been incredibly active buying on chain generative art for probably the last six months, particularly when eath was trading in the, you know, the 1518 hundred range. There are two benefits to people kind of like losing conviction, around both the underlying and the assets and the the denominated asset itself is like you kind of get a twofer.
00;25;14;25 - 00;25;42;12
Derek
Right. So these you got east, which it's U.S, the US dollar value was dropping and you had the nomination of these objects also dropping. And so there are these moments of capitulation that happen across all of these categories year after year. And you just kind of have to be aware of them. And so, you know, it was really exciting to me to buy fresh eath for the first time in a few years and immediately plug it into some of these connections or collections that were trading like distressed assets.
00;25;42;12 - 00;26;06;20
Derek
Now, my view for these many of these collections in these objects is like it's decades and decades, and I can see pretty clearly the role computer art and computer generated art that uses blockchain as kind of a design partner. That's so obvious to anyone that engages with these systems. Like, there's not that many of these objects. There's, you know, a couple dozen creative coders that are continuing to make work.
00;26;06;28 - 00;26;34;26
Derek
You know, the fact that these things are living, natively on a database that allows you to track and trade and manage them and, and engage with, you know, larger financial protocols like it's the perfect setup, obviously, for, for these things to create value as more attention comes into these networks. And yeah, I guess I just it was kind of, I didn't I don't even think I responded to a single tweet or made a single comment on this just because of how silly the whole thing is.
00;26;34;26 - 00;26;58;05
Derek
But I'll just say, like, you know, I, I, I have never had more conviction in Ethereum and Ethereum denominated cultural assets, and I am continuing to be incredibly active in that market, which is yeah, I think well, I think history has proven that that will ultimately be the right decision. So anyway, that's my, it's my Friday rant for today on the NFTs.
00;26;58;08 - 00;27;07;19
Chris
So, Derek, you, you were just going into the Scrooge McDuck vault and just shoveling us depreciating dollars out of there and slamming it into Ethereum.
00;27;07;21 - 00;27;14;29
Derek
Credit to pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. That was that's probably been the story of my summer, late spring and early summer for sure.
00;27;15;01 - 00;27;15;16
Chris
Cool.
00;27;15;16 - 00;27;40;26
Pri
Cool on that dollar conversation though. Just this is harking back to like literally 15 minutes ago, though. Do you feel like the plan is literally just to, like, have crypto save the US dollar or like I have no other? Nothing else is hitting my mental model then that as the solution? Or do people just not care and feel like we could just continue having more debt and like dealing with it?
00;27;41;00 - 00;28;07;04
Aaron
I think it's a it's a piece of it. I think it's I think they've been pretty transparent. I'm what they're hoping for, which is what that low interest rates what that like targeting below 3% to 3% growth. Right. So like this three and three plan. But I think I think it's a fallback. I mean I do think building up massive Bitcoin reserves could alleviate some of the the debt issues.
00;28;07;06 - 00;28;16;01
Pri
I mean that's kind of what I feel like. I mean, it's very transparent that that's kind of the aim. But I'm like, is that going to work? It feels like sort of Hail Mary vibe.
00;28;16;03 - 00;28;50;10
Chris
Yeah, I'm skeptical on this one. More to the point of, you know, the way you debunk like conspiracy theories and conspiracy thinking is to say you're assuming too much from the people acting in the moment and that life's a set of random occurrences or like, you know, to be Maggie Thatcher. Everyone or self-motivated actors. And, you know, the idea that there is a unified, comprehensive plan to, you know, replace the US dollar with Bitcoin or get us out of a death spiral with Bitcoin.
00;28;50;13 - 00;29;12;12
Chris
It sounds good, but at the same time, like let's just, you know, look at the generational pattern of power, you know, as it relates to like the boomer class, like their entire history is simply pull up the ladder. Do for us pull up the ladder, kick the can down the road and, you know, not give two shits about anyone who has to clean up their mess.
00;29;12;12 - 00;29;41;22
Chris
And so, hey, look, it'd be nice if, sure. Like, you know, Bitcoin's going to save the day, but I think we just have people acting in their own self-interest. And then, you know, maybe there's a faint or there's a, you know, some people within that apparatus see Bitcoin as a solution or advocating for it. But I don't think this is, you know, a very well thought out thing because we're not dealing with a particularly well thought out administration.
00;29;41;22 - 00;29;44;02
Chris
They prefer to fly by the seat of their pants.
00;29;44;04 - 00;29;45;06
Pri
It is vibin.
00;29;45;08 - 00;29;47;27
Chris
The future is unknown. Free. We'll say.
00;29;47;29 - 00;30;05;14
Pri
Yeah, we're going to help get out the debt to some extent, but I know it's to like solve the whole like this, this crisis we're in that said, it's like when you talk about getting out of dollar denominated assets and putting it into what, crypto or like what what what are their, what are the rules like currency.
00;30;05;14 - 00;30;10;01
Pri
Are you buying? Honestly? Like I'm going to stick with dollar on this one.
00;30;10;03 - 00;30;31;18
Derek
Yeah. I will say like there is this argument that like the utility of the dollar is like it's pretty expansive. You know, there's there's a, I mean, I, I so I am yeah, don't get me wrong. Like I, I'm very bullish on these sovereign store value assets like playing the role for wealth preservation that the US dollar has traditionally played over the last 3040 years.
00;30;31;21 - 00;31;08;09
Derek
I I'm pretty long that idea. I'll also say like there is there is a huge huge and obviously this is something you guys have touched on already today, but but also, in the on past episodes, there's a huge argument to be made that just this idea of, you know, us taxing the amount of stablecoins that are backed by US dollar reserves, which, you know, and bringing that the utility of the dollar into kind of like these environments makes the US dollar kind of it's a defensible product, like when you start to bring stability, stability like that into these settings, into these trust minimized settings.
00;31;08;14 - 00;31;37;22
Derek
And I mean like the if the, the, the, the utility in the k factor of the US dollar in digital settings is just like up only then it's hard for me to paint a picture where both of these things aren't true, where like the dollar continues to remain valuable on a global stage because you know, it was first to market and it relies on these traditional systems as like kind of, as kind of an ARB or, a go to market to kind of like bring that dollar stability into these settings.
00;31;37;22 - 00;31;57;08
Derek
But also I'm, I'm also long the idea that, you know, many of the points Chris is making, just like there, there is something that people are sleeping better at night knowing that there's no real risk to specific types of, of assets, and store value assets in particular, like bitcoin and ether and eath denominated objects and things like that.
00;31;57;08 - 00;32;18;17
Derek
So I think there's that these are two very important stories that I think are probably in the short to medium term, more complementary than then, kind of like pitted against each other. That's just kind of my I mean, maybe that's kind of a mid take, but I do feel strongly that some of like the game theory around the US dollar probably takes much longer than people are expecting to to play out there.
00;32;18;17 - 00;32;28;22
Chris
That's like the, the truism I think everyone in their space needs to understand. Like, everything takes longer than what people want, right?
00;32;28;25 - 00;32;29;19
Derek
Yeah.
00;32;29;21 - 00;32;43;08
Chris
I mean, that's just the way in the world. But then, you know, you look up one day and you're like, oh, it's been five years since we started it. And all this like, it's a strange thing where time passes a little faster than you think, but never as quickly as you want.
00;32;43;10 - 00;33;08;18
Derek
Yeah. That's so it's so true. And and I think like maybe the greatest example of that is just like the, the four of us have shown up every single day for like, you know, into this space going on, I don't know, seven years at this point, eight years and, and you know, every day that we see the price and we have these ideas like I remember really like trying to understand the Bitcoin whitepaper early on.
00;33;08;20 - 00;33;38;22
Derek
And I was like, this is game theoretically sounds like this is this is going to be such an important asset. Like everybody's going to want to hold this thing. There's only 21 million like grab your bitcoin now because like this shit is going straight. You know, to a million bucks a pop. And you show up day after day after day and you're wondering why the hell bitcoin is, you know, at $25,000 after a massive run up, after, you know, ten years into its life cycle and it's like, this thing should be trading much higher.
00;33;38;22 - 00;34;12;10
Derek
Like, why is and everyone racing to get this thing or why is Gen Art down 80% or, you know, why is ether back at 1500 bucks. And I think like I think to your to your point Chris, like because we have this the ability for these things to get Mark to market and show up every day and kind of like be bludgeoned with the reality that like, our thesis is not taking that long, but then you take a look backwards and it's like, okay, it's been 12 years now instead of ten years or 13 years instead of 11 years, and all of a sudden things are way different and, things are moving and reality
00;34;12;10 - 00;34;25;04
Derek
is setting in and in ways that you were expecting a long time ago. But now it's moving quickly again, and it's so it time is a really funky thing when when it's applied to when it's when it's applied to kind of like spaces like crypto, I think.
00;34;25;07 - 00;34;34;12
Pri
What do they say about having kids? Like the days are long but the years are short. What do I feel like for for like the days are long and the years are long too.
00;34;34;14 - 00;35;06;05
Chris
When you move at like accelerated speeds, it really messes with you, you know? And that's, that's part of like participating within a fully networked environment. Right. Like this is one of the few places that we can say, like, is digitally native moves it. Internet speed never turns off. And so in some ways, like, you know, we're all experiencing the the full embrace of the future and we need to kind of understand and adjust.
00;35;06;05 - 00;35;33;27
Chris
But on a, on a bigger thing, because I love talking about time, I think people do need to develop a better relationship with time. Like I think one of the, I don't know, most powerful forms of alpha anyone in the space can can actually develop is learning to take longer views, having a greater understanding of how things behave, setting your expectations accordingly like to me that as an old dude, that's something I've come to appreciate.
00;35;33;28 - 00;36;15;16
Chris
You know, the more I wake up every single day and time passes is just how it behaves, how to work with it, how to not fight against it. And like, you know, a it keeps you from making mistakes, you know, out of acting rashly. But it also it provides a lot of comfort and like, you know, really dials down your anxiety like make few bets, have conviction in them and, you know, like pack your bags and sit, you know, there was something going around on Twitter, I don't know, a week or two ago where people were saying, you know, if Chamath had never sold his Facebook stock, you know, tried to reinvest it, he'd be
00;36;15;16 - 00;36;37;14
Chris
sitting on 30 billion instead of whatever his net worth is today. And then a lot of people in the space, you know, said the same thing about their own personal experiences in which they tried to be eath or tried to be Bitcoin. You know, you look at it's hard. The world is hard being your own individual investor. Right?
00;36;37;15 - 00;37;12;28
Chris
Like eating what you kill is an incredible hard thing to do. But, you know, I think in people's enthusiasm to tackle that problem or in their enthusiasm to, you know, go and take advantage of all these exciting opportunities in the long run. They may have hurt themselves. Like if you are in a position where you have the luxury of being able to say, this is my bag and I'm not touching this bag, and then this is my, you know, my slice of my portfolio in which I am going to actively manage.
00;37;12;28 - 00;37;34;28
Chris
I'm going to go out and I'm going to eat what I kill. You know, you can have it both ways, but a lot of people don't have that advantage. And I think it has to be incredibly hard, incredibly difficult to just take a long term position and be content with it. But time, history, you know, starts to prove more often than not.
00;37;34;28 - 00;37;36;15
Chris
That's the right choice.
00;37;36;18 - 00;37;40;13
Pri
I think the issue with that, Chris, is that it's just really boring.
00;37;40;16 - 00;38;07;05
Aaron
It's really that, I mean, and I just don't think people are able to be patient that, you know, I think even now, I don't know, I still I feel great about digital assets. I don't think that there's like huge moves to be made. I think the risk of running into that issue you're just describing, Chris, is super high at some point the timing will line up, the opportunities will be clear, as clear as day, and that's the time to act.
00;38;07;08 - 00;38;12;15
Aaron
It's just it's been sitting in your hands land in an if if world and that's okay.
00;38;12;17 - 00;38;19;16
Chris
There was a time for people need hobbies. People need other interests, people. Now I hope you like DS and start gardening.
00;38;19;18 - 00;38;26;16
Aaron
Exactly. I heard you picked up a new hobby. Chris. I heard you picked picked one up. How's it going?
00;38;26;19 - 00;38;37;10
Chris
I wouldn't call it a hobby, Aaron, because I used to be a professional at it. I might be returning you know. We'll see. But. Yes. I'm a week in the vibe. Coding.
00;38;37;12 - 00;38;39;12
Aaron
Yeah. There we go. How's it going?
00;38;39;14 - 00;39;07;22
Chris
It's amazing, I'd say how I have sat out the last eight years of software development. Right, like I left, what, 2017 is when I really start building things. And so I was still deep in the mobile app era. I feel like I haven't missed a beat, like, I, I feel like I was not punished for not doing anything for the last eight years, that it was super, super, quick.
00;39;07;24 - 00;39;28;17
Chris
It's pretty cool right? Back up to speed. Yeah, it is really cool. It's a little different for me than like a developer because I don't code right. I do product in system design. Like I live in a world of logic and creativity, and that's abstracted a level above the actual implementation. And I've always worked that way. Right? Yeah.
00;39;28;25 - 00;39;51;02
Chris
And so in some ways, like, yeah, I just got, you know, I'm lucky in that respect that I didn't have to keep my chops, you know, up to date and this, you know, while I was like sitting around gardening and writing books and blathering on podcasts, someone developed this magical tool. Yeah. You know, but, yeah, it's it's cool.
00;39;51;02 - 00;39;51;28
Chris
Like.
00;39;52;00 - 00;40;06;01
Aaron
What do you do? Are you. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely challenges to it, but I think another way maybe to play back what you're saying. You've always been like a product architect. Right. And this is just like the best way to build the plumbing. And if you're a plumber, it's it's difficult to use this to build the plumbing.
00;40;06;01 - 00;40;16;22
Aaron
But if you are somebody that has lead product teams built products, it's magical or or even design products, right. Like, yeah, it just it's pretty magical.
00;40;16;25 - 00;40;36;26
Chris
It's a good time to be a generalist. It's a good time to be able to like type quickly and to good time to be able to, like, have an instinct for what's an edge case and how to correct. Yeah, I do identify it and how to fix it. Whether. Yeah, that's no different than like if I was working with an engineer or working with an AI like, you know, that's the same exact flow to me.
00;40;36;28 - 00;41;00;18
Chris
What is funny is a the all the same frustrations are back. You know, it's not like anything is really changed other than, you know, I, I don't have to pay money and so like for work. Right. Like that's always been the biggest thing to me is like as a product person, I was always constrained by the fact that like engineers cost money, people need to eat.
00;41;00;21 - 00;41;29;05
Chris
Therefore, everything I ever built had to have an ROI. And so yeah, now it's like to be freed from that and to be able to like, you know, have the equivalent of a high level developer to like and throw it like vanity projects, like, what am I doing right now, Aaron? I am I'm building out a like a headless CMS that feeds back into, in a way I file search.
00;41;29;05 - 00;41;57;15
Chris
So basically I've got like a closed loop system in which everything that gets created dumps back into an AI that I have, sits on my site and I use it to render up new content. Right? Like I'm just like, have a closed loop workflow system. And once I get it all cleaned up and, you know, all of that, I'm going to start extending that out into like, you know, image generation video, like the whole, the whole shebang.
00;41;57;15 - 00;42;21;28
Chris
So like, I can go out and build my, my little world and a faster and more scalable way. But yeah, dude, it's I, I, I always like held off on valve coding because I knew once I got into it, like it would be a very consuming thing and I didn't want to, like, fall down that rabbit hole too soon, you know, in terms of what could or could not do, but also, like I had other things to do in life.
00;42;21;28 - 00;42;35;18
Chris
I don't know if this is something you're just born to. I don't know if it's the nature of the work or what it is, but I can sit and scream at a machine for like ten hours straight if you know, if left unchecked. And yeah.
00;42;35;20 - 00;42;38;26
Aaron
I mean, that's that that's what I've been doing for.
00;42;38;29 - 00;42;40;26
Chris
All I know. I've seen you for quite some time.
00;42;40;26 - 00;43;09;29
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I found that I, I don't scream and it's much more enjoyable than, than sometimes working with humans. And that's like the weirdest part. Like, it's like, as Chris, I know you've been somebody that has, led and managed teams that I could I can completely see how human work is going to get replaced, because the experience of interacting with these highly agentless systems is very, very pleasurable.
00;43;10;01 - 00;43;28;14
Aaron
It's like much more pleasurable. It's instant gratification. It's like, the tone putting aside, you know, people lamenting, like how lazy it is and how they kind of overrides the models are when it comes to just like collaborating with something and is kind of a thing, it's pretty pleasurable. And I think it's going to get better and better.
00;43;28;16 - 00;43;32;15
Aaron
It's going to definitely be like a bit of a mind fuck for a lot of people.
00;43;32;18 - 00;44;02;24
Chris
Yeah. For, I don't know, there's so many things we can say about this right from like, just like, being on an expressway or like an acceleration point of view. You know, I said this to my wife, like, all right, this shit's, like, really dense in the old days, I might have over the span of four days, I might be dealing with, you know, 12 different people who, you know, are bringing 30 something different problems to me.
00;44;02;27 - 00;44;28;29
Chris
But that's all spaced out, and it's all different people I talked to and they're different types of problems. Like there's, you know, there's gaps between that when you're doing this, like you're you're doing that in like six hour, you know, sessions like you're just because the code moves so quick and the problems arise so quick. And so yeah, it's very much like, a denser, you know, a denser experience in my old work life.
00;44;28;29 - 00;45;07;27
Chris
But it's also very, very freeing in that, you know, communication was such a problem, right? Like, not even a problem. That's not like quite the right way to put it. But God, when I let our like, in-house creative agency. Right, like it was really hard for me at certain times to translate what was in my head right from like a brand or a visual or layout into designer speak or you think, you know, and so you would learn that language, but at the same time, like, even if you get the words right and you say it in a way that you know any, any designer UI person understands, it doesn't mean they interpret it the
00;45;07;27 - 00;45;27;15
Chris
same way. And so you send people off, they do work, they come back with, you know, mockups or whatever, and it's not what you had in your head. And that's no fault of anyone's. Right. I mean, sometimes maybe it is, but that's just the nature of human beings. When you're dealing with these machines, it's just you, you know, and they're just hands.
00;45;27;15 - 00;45;39;17
Chris
And so there is a lot of efficiency in, you know, just like one mind to one set of hands, style communication because nothing really gets lost in translation.
00;45;39;25 - 00;45;54;22
Aaron
Yeah, exactly. I think that's the key. Right. And that's what makes it more enjoyable. It's like, and if you want to spend as somebody that's designed a product or built a product, you know, a lot of time on one feature and just get it right because you have it clear in your mind, or at least roughly clear in your mind.
00;45;54;22 - 00;46;13;09
Aaron
You now can do that. And that, you know, before would have taken days, weeks, you know, maybe even longer with a lot of friction and not it's not, you know, your fault or the implementers fault. You just don't need to do that. Like the handoff is so smooth and then it becomes super engaging because you get that feedback loop.
00;46;13;09 - 00;46;16;01
Aaron
So it's it's like hyper and entertaining at the same time.
00;46;16;05 - 00;46;18;16
Chris
I don't even have to write product specs anymore.
00;46;18;16 - 00;46;20;28
Aaron
And yeah, it's like, you shouldn't.
00;46;21;00 - 00;46;47;17
Chris
Know like my I logically don't how these things should work, right? Like I've got the accumulated years of experience and my brains go to this shit, yada yada yada. You know, in the old world, like I was managing a lot of people, I was serving generalist functions, but I was also responsible for like creating our products, which means like I needed huge, uninterrupted blocks of time to document that.
00;46;47;19 - 00;47;07;20
Chris
And like, I mean, that was one of my biggest challenges was just like, how can I get like, you know, four hours, ten hours, whatever the size of the job was to, like, simply write this down, work through the logic, work through the casing, you know, so that I can then distribute it through the org. Make sure like it works for everyone there.
00;47;07;20 - 00;47;31;09
Chris
Sign off and people get it. Like that doesn't exist anymore. Like I can literally just sit sit down, have a conversation and go sketch something out, say, summarize and synthesize this. It creates like a 1 or 2 page doc that, you know, I can then, if I ever need it, cede it back to the machine to remind them where we are and what we're up to.
00;47;31;11 - 00;47;37;28
Derek
Can I give the the so I totally agree with all of this. Can I give like, maybe the counterargument to some of this conversation.
00;47;38;00 - 00;47;40;22
Chris
Please steal my sunshine.
00;47;40;25 - 00;48;06;06
Derek
Well, well, so I everything you're saying I completely agree with, like, we're seeing a complete collapse of what it means to create products and services using this new technology, especially software based technology. But I think it will ripple out to, to all forms. I will say, just like on I've, you know, I've started multiple companies in the past and I've thought a lot about, you know, how I would operate with this technology if I were ever to go on that side of the table again.
00;48;06;06 - 00;48;33;07
Derek
But on the current side of the table I'm on, which is advising entrepreneurs and meeting startups who have new ideas and chatting with founders. You know, for vast amounts of my day, every day, I will say like, there is something about these new tools that actually lead to like, like take what you just said, Chris, about, you know, having to kind of like run a product idea through, through kind of other engineers or PMS or designers and getting everyone sign off there.
00;48;33;10 - 00;48;56;11
Derek
To me there, there is something lost when you've got this more siloed way of building products that's now available to you. There is something about external feedback and and cross-functional collaboration and these constraints that happen when you're building a product from team members around you that actually can lead to optimal outcomes. And I have noticed I'm seeing way more startup pitches than I've ever seen before.
00;48;56;11 - 00;49;30;21
Derek
Everybody, who's, you know, got some basic skills at at creating products is now able to kind of wield these tools and start a new company and be a one man band and, you know, there there is something that's lost when you're just huddled up in your room in front of a laptop, only having yourself and the, you know, a very complacent synthetic robot behind the screen that's working with you that can lead to suboptimal product design because you're not actually getting the correct feedback loops or, or, edges from, from kind of
00;49;30;23 - 00;49;31;22
Aaron
I think that's true.
00;49;31;24 - 00;49;33;11
Chris
Yes. And so sad.
00;49;33;14 - 00;49;35;19
Aaron
But it's so. Yeah.
00;49;35;25 - 00;49;58;19
Derek
So, Oh, sorry. I was just going to land the plane on us, so. So I guess my my view is like, it's not I, I, I do believe the effect of what you're saying is going to is going to it's going to win out. Like, I just I don't think you can stop that train. I think we're going to see smaller teams, smaller firms is in many cases like one man bands create meaningful products and services over the next 5 to 10 years.
00;49;58;22 - 00;50;14;06
Derek
I just think the, the, the piece of what I'm the piece of what I'm missing needs to get re simulated or recreated somehow for you to really see this proliferation that that I think we're all expecting. And I don't know if I think we're in V1 right now.
00;50;14;08 - 00;50;36;25
Chris
Yeah. No 100% like as you're saying that I'm running through my own experience and nodding my head, right, like some of the best products I ever built was because one of my partners came to me with an outrageous demand, like a very forward thinking loss leading or just wild out of the box thing and say, this is where we need to go.
00;50;36;25 - 00;50;55;10
Chris
And my initial reaction was always like, what the fuck? Are you kidding me? And then he would insist, like, you know, it's one of those things where you had to wait for him to say it 3 or 4 times and be like, okay, this dude is serious about this. Let's figure it out, right? Because you can never quite filter that.
00;50;55;10 - 00;51;03;09
Chris
So that's one part of it is being challenged. Like you can't be challenged. I mean, you can challenge yourself, but not in that sort of way.
00;51;03;11 - 00;51;04;11
Derek
Exactly.
00;51;04;14 - 00;51;31;26
Chris
You know, another part of this is there's plenty of things that you don't think about, like I learned so much from my sales team and understanding how distribution works, what the expectations of channel channel partners were, what other people need in order to be able to sell the thing you're doing. And that all flowed back into, you know, how I design product or like, you know, it made me a better person.
00;51;31;26 - 00;51;52;16
Chris
Like all of those forms of challenges are very necessary, both like in your own development but in the actual end product. And so I guess I need to like caveat everything I just said, which is like I'm building a personal project, right? I'm not trying to like, build something on the scale of Mint Mobile or like other things I've built.
00;51;52;19 - 00;52;14;27
Chris
And I'm also doing it as like a 49 year old who worked in the internet since 1999. Right. And so, like, I'm operating in a bunch of different parameters, like this isn't like a generalized thing. Like if I walked into you, if like 24 year old me pitched you today, like, that's not something, you want it back, right?
00;52;15;00 - 00;52;25;03
Chris
49 year old me like semi-retired and doing things for myself like this works perfectly. But like, yes, I 100% agree with what you're saying. Yeah.
00;52;25;03 - 00;52;37;00
Aaron
I mean, I think that's I think it's right. Dirk. I, I think you will have teams that are working together. I think the difference is it's the composition of the teams. Right. So yeah. Yeah.
00;52;37;02 - 00;52;37;20
Derek
That's right.
00;52;37;22 - 00;52;57;11
Aaron
And, and and that's I think the biggest difference like there's definitely going to be human collaboration. I do think teamwork does make a better overall product. Like you can get lost in your own forest. Right. And and just see trees instead of the bigger picture. Like you need, people to push you like you were describing Chris and push in a different direction.
00;52;57;11 - 00;53;33;23
Aaron
You need user feedback. All that jazz. I think the big change and it's seismic is who you're going to collaborate with is going to be less with just mechanical, engineers. They really are just like plumbers laying down the pipes. Many of them, not all of them. Right. And and for most products, not all products. But I think that that means that, you know, product forward teams, teams that really are thinking about, the end user experience or incorporating feedback, like what you were describing, Chris, from, you know, sales teams or, you know, before UX or just end users, they're they're going to continue to succeed.
00;53;33;23 - 00;53;54;28
Aaron
But the mechanical acts of just assembling these things is just going to get more narrow, narrow over time. And that's why it's such a big hubbub. And I do think, I don't know if you've done this yet, Chris, like put, you know, started to use cursor to like plan stuff out like almost be the product manager or to give feedback on like the design aspects even there does like a pretty good job.
00;53;55;00 - 00;54;02;17
Aaron
But if you, if you if you want me to pass along any nominal tips I've picked up, I'm happy to do that.
00;54;02;20 - 00;54;26;11
Chris
Yeah. Like, give me a another week. Like, I'm literally been doing this for a week and my set up is, just cursor and clod, right where I'll, I'll do planning and Claude then I'll show you to then the cursor. If cursor gets stuck, I tell cursor, hey, you got to talk to Senior Dev about this and do a write ups, and I bounce it over to Claude like I'm taking baby steps right now, right?
00;54;26;11 - 00;54;40;17
Chris
Like, I'm definitely not at a level where I'm, like, making full use of these things. And so when the time comes, like you are and have got, like a year and a half or whatever under your belt. So like, you know, like.
00;54;40;20 - 00;55;06;22
Aaron
I think that's, you know, on that. And I think for everybody, they're going to use it differently. But you know, me reading just the timeline or just the conversation from the dev community, it just it feels like a they're still in the middle of their journey trying to understand it be there's such an instinct in that community to just, like, masturbate over every little tool that I just feel like they missed the most optimum ways to use this stuff.
00;55;06;25 - 00;55;11;22
Aaron
You don't even need to go into like Claude to do the planning. You could do it in cursor as an example.
00;55;11;26 - 00;55;41;10
Chris
I yeah, I mean I prefer the just the separation, right. Like some of this organization more than anything else. But to that point, yeah, I think there's a few people in our space who has kind of like crossed the Rubicon and understood and exactly what, what this allows for and kind of understands, like how their role is changed or like certain set of skills they identified with are now background and this other set of skills that maybe wasn't my primary in their life, but they always had like that.
00;55;41;10 - 00;55;54;15
Chris
That's what they got to lean into. Like, backseat. Who does, chunks there. Right? Yeah. There's a great example like of watching this, like mental model shift in real time and like, he's on the other side of it.
00;55;54;17 - 00;56;16;19
Aaron
I think it's also, you know, and it must have been like if you were like a master chess player when, you know, AlphaGo, not AlphaGo, but the, you know, the different chess models began to eclipse human playing. I think that a lot of those developers, even the great ones, they're looking or want to implement a solution, but actually whatever their solution is, is suboptimal.
00;56;16;22 - 00;56;40;17
Aaron
And like the AI solution is better, you know, for reasons that they may not fully understand or or necessarily agree with because they're opinionated. I see that all the time, which which is, I think in part why a lot of these developers walk away with a bad taste in their mouth. They're not willing yet to like to agree with the fact that, you know, these systems may be better at their profession than they are.
00;56;40;19 - 00;56;42;16
Aaron
And I think that's just going to happen everywhere.
00;56;42;18 - 00;56;59;19
Chris
Yeah, that's going to be hard. It reminds me of like someone I did a lot of early work with who was a master at Perl, and he was so good at Perl, like he would do shit in Perl. You shouldn't do in Perl, right? And he was just like, well, I don't want to learn this other stuff. Or like, you know, I can do it in Perl in an hour to do it the right way.
00;56;59;19 - 00;57;07;23
Chris
I need like two days of research and then I got to do it, you know, or just like, yeah, like, we all have styles, we all have our preferences, you know?
00;57;07;26 - 00;57;22;04
Aaron
Right. And then the Perl developer got eclipsed by the JavaScript developer. Right. Which is just a mess. But it's super fun. I'm glad you're, you're on the train. I think you'll enjoy it. I'm excited to see kind of. What what you build from it. Maybe I should intro the show.
00;57;22;06 - 00;57;26;13
Chris
That we lose. Oh, free had to go, museum and Derek's at techshop.
00;57;26;15 - 00;57;27;17
Aaron
Just me and you, Chris.
00;57;27;17 - 00;57;37;13
Chris
I threatened Finkel with a filibuster length episode that way. Like, we could, like, I'm on Rodriguez. My family's away. I'm in an empty house. We could go nine hours if you want.
00;57;38;15 - 00;57;41;19
Chris
I know you have things to do.
00;57;41;22 - 00;57;43;27
Aaron
Oh, man. Yeah, I may have to hop to.
00;57;43;29 - 00;57;46;01
Chris
But, All right, enter the show. Let's go.
00;57;46;01 - 00;58;10;01
Aaron
Welcome to Nexus. Welcome to Net Society, everyone. It's a podcast where we talk about, digital assets, digital art, crypto tech, AI and everything kind of in between. You know, just as a reminder, nothing we say here is investment advice or should be construed as investment advice. And nothing reflects, our employers and all is all set in our individual capacity.
00;58;10;03 - 00;58;18;18
Chris
Yes. We price takes on the dollar in no way reflect, for itself consolidated industries. Yeah.
00;58;18;20 - 00;58;25;27
Aaron
But hey, that that you could be done with that this weekend, Chris. That's all I know. Consolidated industries sounds great.
00;58;26;00 - 00;58;35;11
Chris
Yeah. I'm going to be running, shipping, logging, media, corpse, you name it. I'll be I'll have hotels in places I've never visited. Sounds wonderful.
00;58;35;13 - 00;58;41;19
Aaron
Yep. All by the end of the weekend. Get on the God. All right. Thanks, guys.
00;58;41;21 - 00;58;42;20
Chris
Yeah, yeah.
00;58;42;22 - 00;59;01;19
Aaron
But I.