Save What You Love with Mark Titus

With expansive teaching experience, her art practice ranges from the use of symbolic imagery to pure abstraction in graphic design, painting, mixed media, and tattooing. Over time many misconceptions have surfaced about who has the right to wear and practice taa moko. Julie is one of the first women to practice in the male-dominated field. She is a strong voice for Maaori women’s rights and continues to break down barriers to give women a place in taa moko and in the arts.

Mark and Julie speak about the rebirth of Māori culture and tradition in recent decades, tā moko (Māori tattoo and body markings), breaking down barriers for women in her community, cultivating art and being a mentor for younger generations.

Save What You Love with Mark Titus:⁣

Produced: Emilie Firn

Edited: Patrick Troll⁣

Music: Whiskey Class⁣

Instagram: @savewhatyoulovepodcast

Website: savewhatyoulove.evaswild.com

Support wild salmon at evaswild.com

Creators & Guests

Host

Mark Titus

Mark Titus is the creator of Eva’s Wild and director of the award winning films, The Breach and The Wild. He’s currently working on a third film in his salmon trilogy, The Turn. In early 2021, Mark launched his podcast, Save What You Love, interviewing exceptional people devoting their lives in ways big and small to the protection of things they love. Through his storytelling, Mark Titus carries the message that humanity has an inherent need for wilderness and to fulfill that need we have a calling to protect wild places and wild things.

Guest

Julie Paama-Pengelly

Julie Paama-Pengelly is a Māori tā moko artist, painter, commentator, & curator and is a veteran in the revitalization of taa moko Maaori tattooing. Her studio in Mount Maunganui mixes contemporary and traditional designs and cultivates artists from all walks of life. With expansive teaching experience, her art practice ranges from the use of symbolic imagery to pure abstraction in graphic design, painting, mixed media, and tattooing. Over time many misconceptions have surfaced about who has the right to wear and practice taa moko. Julie is one of the first women to practice in the male-dominated field. She is a strong voice for Maaori women’s rights and continues to break down barriers to give women a place in taa moko and in the arts.

What is Save What You Love with Mark Titus?

Wild salmon give their very lives so that life itself can continue. They are the inspiration for each episode asking change-makers in this world what they are doing to save the things they love most. Join filmmaker, Mark Titus as we connect with extraordinary humans saving what they love through radical compassion and meaningful action. Visit evaswild.com for more information.

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:27:08
Mark Titus
Welcome to the Save What You Love podcast. I'm your host, Mark Titus. Today I interview Julie Paama-Pengally. Julie is a Maori Ta Moko artist, painter, commentator and curator and is a veteran of the revitalization of Ta Moko tattooing her studio in Mount Maunganui. Mixes contemporary and traditional designs and cultivates artists from all walks of life with expansive teaching experience.

00:00:27:10 - 00:00:54:22
Mark Titus
Her art practice ranges from the use of symbolic imagery to pure abstraction in graphic design, painting, mixed media, and tattooing. Over time, many misconceptions have surfaced about who has the right to wear and practice. Ta Moko. Julie is one of the first women to practice in the male dominated field. She's a strong voice for Maori women's rights and continues to break down barriers to give women a place in Ta Moko and in the arts.

00:00:55:00 - 00:01:05:21
Mark Titus
Please welcome Julie Paama-Pengally. What a engaging and lovely conversation and I hope you enjoy it. We'll see you down the trail.

00:01:05:23 - 00:01:42:15
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:01:42:17 - 00:01:47:17
Mark Titus
Julie Paama-Pengally. Welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

00:01:47:19 - 00:02:00:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
Ki ora. I'm coming from Mount Maunganui, which is a small coastal, province, I guess, of Parana. Otero, New Zealand.

00:02:00:04 - 00:02:20:19
Mark Titus
Definitely the farthest afield we've ever been on this show. This is such an honor to be able to speak with you and learn about this important work. I'll be honest, you know, our audience probably hasn't heard much about the kind of work that we're going to dig into here in a minute. But before we do, I always like to just open the show up.

00:02:20:19 - 00:02:37:01
Mark Titus
This is very free form. This is long form. I love just sort of letting it all hang out. And, it's really my favorite thing to do just to get to know somebody. I'd love to just give you the opportunity to tell us your story. Where were you born? How did you, how did you grow up?

00:02:37:01 - 00:02:41:02
Mark Titus
And how did you get into this important work that you do?

00:02:41:04 - 00:03:16:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah, it would seem fairly random, I guess, where I am today. Certainly my family would think it was random. I was born, a New Plymouth, which was a very, it's kind of defined by a mountain, a very big mountain with a very, problematic history in terms of Maori relationships with the Crown. But I was born from, British settler family, and my father was working the wolves, the wolf there, and he was Maori.

00:03:16:18 - 00:03:46:16
Julie Paama-Pengally
So, tragically, he died in a car accident when I was three, and, and from there on, I was kind of the only brown face in my family. And interesting. And the whole sense of Maori families is, my dad was the eldest of 17, born. Not all survived, but, and that sense, he was kind of an important person in the family.

00:03:46:18 - 00:04:13:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
But in the other sense, the, for this, the colonial struggle, which made it shameful to be Maori, meant that he also was the one in the family that shunned everything Maori and became, changed. His name became kind of invisible in the Maori world and took on a persona as an accountant. You know, and yeah.

00:04:13:15 - 00:04:45:12
Julie Paama-Pengally
So even though his family considered him important and that line, he kind of shunned that. So that became really important to me as I was growing up because, in a British family, they were farming stark, very much polar opposites, I guess, believed in the colonial machinery because, they were timber merchants, historically. So that profited of, I guess, land confiscation and and colonization settlement.

00:04:45:14 - 00:05:11:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
That side of my family had profited from it. And so growing up, I was the only brown girl. And, you know, no one can really replace that feeling. No one can really understand because you were always treated like, you know, are you adopted? How do you belong? You're Maori or brown. So this, you're kind of persecuted even though you're from a, a white family.

00:05:11:17 - 00:05:32:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah. So that was my upbringing. And so it was I kind of remember my father passing and thought it was my birthday, because I thought it was all about me as an only child. But that happened to all, you know, very quietly in my family as well. So it was like suddenly I was separated from my whole Maori family.

00:05:32:20 - 00:05:57:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
And because, my dad, my dad was the eldest, my, Maori family had wanted to adopt me. And my mother kind of made me invisible to them so they couldn't find me. So that's, you know, that's not an unusual story. Just saying that Maori grew up, of my dad's generation. Generation grew up, often at religious schools.

00:05:57:04 - 00:06:26:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
Told to shun their culture, become Christianized, become English speakers, become believers in God. And you know, so that and not speak their language. So that was pretty common. So my generation were the ones that, have looked back, have realized we've been persecuted because we brown and have wanted to, you know, probe that part of our, our heritage.

00:06:26:20 - 00:07:02:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
And I wasn't until, and I had a really difficult school schooling. I kind of resisted everything and I think as a solitary child and, and had brothers and sisters, that was kind of my, presence was resistance pretty much. And it wasn't until I, I left school and I went to university and I, had a number of events happened, but most important one for me was was, ironically, was the coup in Fiji.

00:07:02:04 - 00:07:38:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
There was a military takeover in Fiji and, it was really cheap to go there. It was like $300 for a nice. Yeah. So some of us students decided we'd go over there and have a tropical holiday. And while I was over there, I kind of like, I had this epiphany. I saw the whole, you know, colonial paradigm right in front of me, you know, everything that the colonial machine brought and contrast all the beautiful tradition and, you know, it often takes that move overseas to actually see what's happening under your own eyes.

00:07:38:04 - 00:08:01:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
And up until that time, I wanted to be, working in the food world. And then when I went to Fiji and I was like, oh, my God, you know, we have an opportunity to change what we're doing in New Zealand. And in this and and in the meantime, I'd found my family and a lot of other things that happened personally.

00:08:01:11 - 00:08:29:08
Julie Paama-Pengally
But that was my moment where I thought, you know, my scholars and arts and I know how important that is. It's it's, you know, our visual language, and we're losing it. We're losing our oral language, but our visual language tells us how to treat this world. And it shows us, what our world should look like with everything that we believe and around us.

00:08:29:13 - 00:09:05:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
And so, you know, after that epiphany, I had a second one when I was, teaching and I was sent to a teacher training course. Not not long after that. And I didn't have any teacher qualifications at that time. And, I had contact with a very important, artist teacher, Robert Young. Okay. And at the same time, a very important, body marking artist, Maori body marking artist, Derek Martelli and, and both of those signs said to me, this is where I need to be.

00:09:05:19 - 00:09:31:21
Julie Paama-Pengally
And I believe that believe in it with a passion that, you know, the, the arts in general, the Maori arts tell us how we should be in this world. They always did. They taught us how to interact with our, everything else around us. Everything has a spirit. We call it a modi. We respect everything like it is our blood.

00:09:31:23 - 00:10:00:06
Julie Paama-Pengally
And toi Maori, everything that we create, pays reverence to those things, carries that, important story and communicates with us our personal, important stories and intergenerational stories. Yeah. So those were the things that impacted me. Otherwise, I could have been pretending to be this, white girl for the rest of my life. Wow. Really interesting.

00:10:00:08 - 00:10:30:21
Mark Titus
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing such an impactful and vulnerable story. And, I'm so enthralled by this epiphany moment. And I'm wondering, when you went to Fiji, was it was it strictly the cultural things that you noticed about the stark contrast with colonialism and the people there, or was there something as well about the place, literally the land and the water?

00:10:30:23 - 00:10:40:09
Mark Titus
And was there something about place that had some value to you, as well as your observations around the cultural side of things?

00:10:40:11 - 00:11:22:03
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah, that's a really, interesting, question actually, because it's all about place. You know, I think your first, the first impression of, of the Pacific Islands, if you are someone that's outwardly aware of of who we are as people, we it's recognizing can and it's recognizing where we've come from. So, you know, when we're sitting in and out here or New Zealand where we're a minority percentage and we head over to Pacific Islands, and I've been to a lot now, you know, for me, and that's another jump.

00:11:22:03 - 00:11:54:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
But for me, our relationship to Moana mewa akima is critical to, how I see the world as well. You know, we're not we didn't just stop here, 200 years ago, we were going backwards and forwards. We were one big, I wouldn't say bubble ocean, I guess of understanding of each other, of kinship, of our land and our waters and our waterways and our travel.

00:11:54:22 - 00:12:26:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
So because, you know, in an altered or we've become land people. And it wasn't until 1990 that we shifted our focus quite strongly to our Walker traditions and reinvigorate our relationship with the rest of, the Pacific Islands through our seafaring. And a lot of work has been done in that field. But I, I've had an understanding of that from the moment I set foot and, and Fiji.

00:12:26:11 - 00:12:50:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
So what I saw there was the direct relationship with the land was the water, the things that we'd lost. You know, it was it was our first trip back, years before, well, one before we left, but also before we had the colonial influence. This this was our life. So living at one was the thing or the land.

00:12:50:19 - 00:13:31:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
It one was the water at one was what we felt the US were the, the forces presented to us, and we lived in symbiosis, if you like. With that, and so did our arts. So there was that that recognized I recognized recognition that, you know, that is our relationship, that is our, meaning, you know, that is what all, because, I guess you can appreciate that the more you colonize, the more you as stories become generic and they become feeds back to you, like, you know, this is the God of and woman did this and men did this.

00:13:31:15 - 00:14:00:16
Julie Paama-Pengally
And woman never tattooed. And those are the stories we feed in the fed through the eyes of missionaries with their own, you know, bias and their own story and their own, agenda. And we've lost the continuous line of, of oratory of, of being told those stories, and we've lost a visual line. The mnemonics, if you like, of giving us an inroad into those stories.

00:14:00:17 - 00:14:31:19
Julie Paama-Pengally
There's been amazing objects that have been uncovered, but still we've lost our storytelling. And the visual record of that. So going to all of those islands puts that back in place. And I have to say that the probably the biggest for me, I've had an understanding for quite a long time that when we talk about Hawaiki and our tradition, we're actually talking about a place in Tahiti, but we're also talking about even further back.

00:14:31:19 - 00:15:06:01
Julie Paama-Pengally
So we carried an and the way we talk about our history, we carry names everywhere we go. And so Tahiti is is like for us, the fin out of Tahiti is the center. It's like the parliament at one point in history and all, the islands that came off that ocean or Cook Islands, Rapa Nui, Easter Island, all around that Hawaii, they, we allude to them as the tentacles of the octopus and and Tahiti is the center.

00:15:06:03 - 00:15:37:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
But that actually translates even further to the channels that we navigated, right? How we found our lands again. And this fact Papua names is genealogical names and all those islands that relate to all of us. So, you know, while we're sitting in nationhood and, and colonial, definitions of who we are, we're actually one big, bigger family and we are one big land, an ocean.

00:15:37:11 - 00:16:03:00
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, that's how we see our world, our cosmos. And so when you talk about, you know, spiritually we are those lands and those oceans, and we feel that when we go there, there's a place and there's a couple of places in Tahiti, actually, which our voyages, we, the captains went back and forth, back and forth, and they still do.

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:24:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
And crucial people who know they still go there and maintain those relationships. And you can feel when you go there, you can feel the spirit of all the people that have been there before. It's a really powerful thing. And if you've never felt that in the chaos of rhythm, of loving this world, then you've really, you know, you've really missed something, I think.

00:16:24:04 - 00:16:49:21
Julie Paama-Pengally
And so now a lot of Maori are actually, as tribes, as different types of groupings that that's taking the pilgrimage back to the lands, to the families, to the language. The language is the same. You know, that reaffirming those connections, because they make us feel alive and more powerful than we do in a world that isn't defined by us.

00:16:49:21 - 00:16:52:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know?

00:16:52:04 - 00:17:15:19
Mark Titus
Wow. You just lit 50 different lights on my switchboard here, and I'm not sure which one to attend to first. First off, you. I'm sure you're aware, at least peripherally, of, you know, a an indigenous resurgence here in North America, turtle Island, as it's known to many tribes here, very similar stories that are going on.

00:17:15:19 - 00:17:49:20
Mark Titus
I, I just had a wonderful encounter just a week ago with, anime poo. Nez Perce, leader, who was we were talking about this idea of a family being steeped in in a colonial way and fear negating the, the historical context because people didn't want to disclose their language or their traditions and get in trouble or worse, be killed, or have, you know, some kind of.

00:17:49:22 - 00:17:50:06
Julie Paama-Pengally
The.

00:17:50:08 - 00:18:29:03
Mark Titus
Persecuted adverse effects and so much trauma has come out of that. And it's, it's astonishing to me to see that this is a continual story with the people who have had oral traditions for time immemorial. And, it's not a surprise to me, you know, that we're talking across an entire ocean around a story that has this level of continuity to it, and it's so inspiring and beautiful, and I can feel that passion in you, in your own rediscover re in your, your very marrow, your DNA.

00:18:29:03 - 00:18:35:01
Mark Titus
It's very apparent as you're speaking. And, thank you for sharing your story with us.

00:18:35:02 - 00:19:00:03
Julie Paama-Pengally
You're welcome. I mean, for me, one of the like, we drive, an indigenous festival, which is in its fifth year this year. And one of the reasons, I, you know, I think for me, being an only child, I kind of, was on a vibration where I was really aware of what other people were feeling and thinking.

00:19:00:05 - 00:19:31:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
And, and as I've moved through the space of doing body marking, which is like 35 years now as a woman in that space, being aware of what people think and feel, I never had a fear of doing what they didn't expect. You know, that's that's the first thing. And the sick, I mean, I you have to be quite fearless to do anything that is counter, mainstream, I guess, to what other people are thinking and doing.

00:19:31:05 - 00:19:51:12
Julie Paama-Pengally
Even our own people. Woman don't do this. Woman never did this. And I said, no, I won't accept that rhetoric. You know, I'm going to prove you wrong. I'm going to find that evidence for you. Just accept you're being lazy. You're being lazy consumers. It's that's kind of one of my my terms for us. You just being lazy.

00:19:51:14 - 00:20:31:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
But then that discovery in being a woman who's been marginalized in that practice, I've. And traveling quite a lot, particularly in the Pacific. But, you know, Turtle Island as well as understanding what other people are feeling as marginalized people and, and how they view Maori in New Zealand. They see us as really feisty and leading the way in all these things, you know, because our colonial history is so recent, we're still, you know, we're still quite strong, and, and trying to combat various ways politically, culturally.

00:20:31:18 - 00:20:59:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
We've had lots of land marches. We've had success. And so with our revival of skin marking in particular, we're ahead of the game for some who are, you know, so much more marginalized than us. And I have to say, we've suffered a great deal of, loss and pain, but they've said, you know, they've suffered exponentially and still do the, the intergenerational stuff.

00:20:59:14 - 00:21:29:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah. So, you know, for me, it's like, where do we find our people, our people, the indigenous and the Pacific. They share our, our genetics, but on a another vibration, we share the same with, First Nation, Canada, Alaska, America, South America. All these people that have been marginalized have the same value. So it's actually they have the same way they value the world.

00:21:29:17 - 00:22:04:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
And it's actually, you know, it's it's it's a conspiracy, I guess, to live a certain way and suppress another way. And the indigenous nations, the other byproduct of suppressing the other way. And, you know, people want to take digest little bits of us. Oh, you know, let's let's, pray to the navel, you know, and Namaste. They want to digest little bits of their indigenous culture, the hacker, whatever it is, because they feel like, you know, it's giving them something a better way.

00:22:04:14 - 00:22:23:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
But actually, we have a better way. We always had a better way. And that was the way that looked after the world and each other. Exactly right. You know, we we. Okay, we weren't perfect, but, there is other ways to live this world. And unfortunately, they don't necessarily go hand in hand.

00:22:23:15 - 00:22:52:10
Mark Titus
That is true. And I'll tell you though, it does feel and maybe maybe this is just partially a function of of being in very close proximity with, indigenous artists and friends here in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska. But for me, even in popular culture, here in the States, there was a show, over the last several years called Reservation Dogs.

00:22:52:10 - 00:23:21:01
Mark Titus
That was a big hit. Right? So, wonderful, wonderful show. One of my favorites in the last five years, just across the board. And there really is and seems to be a resurgence in a real uptick in indigenous storytelling, awareness of indigenous art, a necessary reckoning with the injustice that has been done over the last 250 years.

00:23:21:03 - 00:23:50:04
Mark Titus
And it it's about time and, and it's beautiful. And so with that as a segue, we're going to get into the main, the main show here, which is your beautiful art and and furthering this art form, empowering and taking it in directions. Maybe it hasn't gone before or reconnecting better with the direction that was definitely tied to the past.

00:23:50:06 - 00:24:05:19
Mark Titus
Just to start at the tip of the spear here on this, can you tell us and for our audience who just has no idea about the kind of work that you do? Just to start, what exactly is to Moca tattooing?

00:24:05:20 - 00:24:49:01
Julie Paama-Pengally
So Ta Moko is, it's indigenous, like Maori, obviously. And it's a form of body marking, whereby, we, the artist tells a story, related to the individual. Generally it's anything from their whole, their whole genealogy, their whole life to, aspects of it. The language is held by, tradition. So it is a language that's passed down, comes from different facets of our world as well.

00:24:49:03 - 00:25:20:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
I guess just a little bit of insight into the language and why those Polynesian traditions are so important. Because, that body marking was prolific right through Polynesia, Micronesia, Melanesia, all of those islands. But for Maori, our main carrier of our knowledge, from the islands to New Zealand. And where we actually settled came from aspects of the canoe.

00:25:20:04 - 00:25:45:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
So the bottom of the canoe carried a very powerful design, which we call the pool, which actually talks about safe passage. It's about life journey. It's a it signifies, just as our language does on a, on a metaphorical level, so many things. But it's, it's actually a really powerful design and that features and who often on the lakes.

00:25:45:08 - 00:26:06:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
So we have a number of areas that are actually, quite significant, one of them being the marking that I have on the channel. And when I say significant, like I haven't done anything in particular in this marking, it's a birth, right? It's something that often happened at puberty that's pre colonial. You know, that was the way we lived their life.

00:26:06:11 - 00:26:35:03
Julie Paama-Pengally
It was something that protected the woman. It has a connection, spirit, connection personified there. And it also made them attractive, you know obviously at puberty for gaining partner. And then there's the, the muscle order on the man, which took many forms which had also a life journey and obviously a thing of beauty. A lot of people have made a big deal about it being fierce.

00:26:35:05 - 00:26:58:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
I think, you know, we saw it as really beautiful. Yes. If you saw someone coming angry at you with the club and the face, and it you weren't one of knowing, you might think it's fearsome, but in actual fact that probably we pretty embraced, And we also had a significant one that was on the buttocks, thighs, and.

00:26:59:01 - 00:27:33:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah, back. And that one is pretty much carries your whole heritage. Wow. A significant one that you wore in the heritage and once again, misconceived as a, as a kind of warrior type, piece. But in actual fact, it represents you. Everything in your genealogy and the fact that you have a warrior coming at you with your legs painted like this also means that, you know, you might perceive it as fearful if you're on the wrong side of it.

00:27:33:13 - 00:28:00:12
Julie Paama-Pengally
But for the main part, the for me, there's a number of things that are really important about, our relationship with the environment, the things that we gained. You know, obviously, when we were creating Moko, there's a very, organic relationship that with the things that we're using, you know, and tradition, we use the albatross. Everything was made from the environment.

00:28:00:14 - 00:28:28:00
Julie Paama-Pengally
And that was our world at that time. Right? That was how we we paid reverence to the wood that we took the, the the albatross that was made, the teeth of the of, the okay that we called it, we called it, so those things connected us very much to the world. But the language connected us to all our ancestors, all of which, the guardians of every part of our world.

00:28:28:01 - 00:28:56:08
Julie Paama-Pengally
People like to call them spirits. You know that connected. We're connected through the. For me personally, I believe that as we traverse and this is this is this is my way of stripping the world, that we, you know, the world is inside us. And as we make sense of our connection to it and we reach higher levels, I guess that comes out in our body.

00:28:56:10 - 00:29:27:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, we manifest that on our body, but others that we're connected through, people like to call it, the god, but actually we're connected to the universe. That's our God. You know, it's not one singular thing and it's cellular everything. So that that's how I believe. The other part of, is particularly in the contemporary sense is, you know, back then we obviously we could identify tribes, we could identify everything through the markings.

00:29:27:11 - 00:30:05:16
Julie Paama-Pengally
Now. So it's, an overtly, political statement as well about, you know, we're not going to go away. You could have you can shame us. You can evict us from marking our body, by passing laws and making it illegal for people to do it, which which happened in the 90s, in 1997. But the revival, which is nearly 40 years old, you know, when we started that revival, there was no I guess we didn't really have any explicit stations of domination of you.

00:30:05:18 - 00:30:41:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
Like, we were just fighting for our lives, you know, we're fighting for, for our. Well. And the fact that even a small mark is the healing of bringing that world back to us, as a powerful thing, you know, that inter-generational pain, the loss, the disconnection, the not allowed to be or where or do what you used to do?

00:30:41:16 - 00:31:17:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
So it's a very personal sovereign act as well as it has become quite powerfully, a collective sovereign act, beautiful, and one on which has given our, community so much that, you know, you'd have to be, you know, you'd have to be in the now to appreciate it. And one of the, the beautiful things about that is, you know, being in that space early on and having to convince our people out of the pain that it was okay to do this again.

00:31:17:22 - 00:32:06:12
Julie Paama-Pengally
It was okay to bring this back from where some of us had buried it. That was actually, quite a lot of work. And still today we fight, we confront some of those misconceptions about where it belongs. We should never have brought it back. But actually seeing ourselves 40 years on and where we've come, I think that's what people see with heart that, you know, you can make change and that can be incremental and making bigger change to the conditions of how we are as people is actually seeing the power of of the medicine, for what it truly is.

00:32:06:14 - 00:32:12:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
And that gives you access to obviously, other layers of, of learning.

00:32:13:00 - 00:32:24:14
Mark Titus
Beautifully said, beautifully said. Julie. Thank you.

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Mark Titus
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00:33:38:20 - 00:34:00:04
Mark Titus
I understand, there are various ways of implementing physically implementing this work. So there's people are tattoos are super popular now a lot of people most people are getting them. There's kind of where you go to a tattoo parlor and there's modern, equipment that will do things fairly quickly. And then there's there's another way or other ways.

00:34:00:04 - 00:34:07:18
Mark Titus
Can you elucidate a little bit about the traditional ways of deploying ta mako?

00:34:07:20 - 00:34:40:01
Julie Paama-Pengally
Oh, yeah. It's just so fascinating the way, different, indigenous nations live out their, their technical ways of applying, you know, I think a really, really long time ago, we probably did hand poke, you know, that is kind of, for various reasons. Some, tribes have stayed in that tradition and or moved and back to it, largely because it's quiet and they can't be, you know, found out for doing it.

00:34:40:03 - 00:35:13:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
Traditionally we what we would call hand tech, which is similar to what the Samoans, the Hawaiians, and much of Indonesia are doing now and they revival with the over the years, I alluded to the thing with the hand tappers that we were known for carving, carving the skin. So the faces in particular, even though some of the photographs have been, doctored and had been accentuated, we actually carved the skin.

00:35:13:09 - 00:35:38:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
And the only that we the only that we used for that was like a blade, so that an incision was it was like an operation. There's some pretty scary accounts, of that happening in where the smoke from his pipe came out of his cheek because it was so deep, you know, so people died getting getting ta moko traditionally.

00:35:38:20 - 00:36:08:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
So that wasn't it. And there's been many, many thoughts around how that incision happened because many people have tried to replicate it. My theory is, is that one of the important steps that we haven't focused on is that we use the pot and the healing process. After putting, the first cut was a cut like a blade of an edge, and then the second one was inserting the ink, which you needed taste to hold the ink razor blades not going to hold ink.

00:36:09:00 - 00:36:34:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
But the third step for me is the most important one. And that was that reason was put into that wound code reason from the tree. Very powerful tree was put on that wound. Because you were put in a state of, of sacredness or tapu and a hut where you healed, you were fed with a particular funnel. This is, you know, the big operation.

00:36:34:19 - 00:37:00:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
And and this was put into your wound. And for me, that makes sense, that that was the only way that cut stayed open, because anyone that's tried to do it today, there's no way that any cut will actually stay open and keep a groove. So that's the first thing about what is actually real tradition. But we didn't do that all over our body, so we did something more like what the Samoans are doing with the tea and the just.

00:37:00:22 - 00:37:27:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
It's like a hand poke. But many have hoped at the same time, so we had our own tools that were very much, but, you know, they were fostered along the same lines as Hawaiian, but because we curved, we did a lot of tight curves. Our tools often were a lot closer together. They weren't these big clusters that the Samoans that these big daddy's, and I pampered heaps and heaps of em.

00:37:28:00 - 00:37:51:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, we had these intricate line work we didn't pump and stacks of, of black areas. So that's kind of. And the other thing about Maori designers as it, it evolved to that very delicate balance between, the space and what you care to. So it was much more of a delicate form, but from far away you saw the impact of it.

00:37:51:19 - 00:38:16:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
So it was kind of the Lisa's more principle. Yeah. So the, the important thing about like, before the actual revival or what I say, the revival, because there was a lot of work happening and pockets, you know, they were people practicing, with the, they were people using machines. They were people using vote machines and prisons.

00:38:16:14 - 00:38:49:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
They were, you know, they were gangs reviving areas of it. But the revival space in New Zealand was a conscious decision. And what we had the privilege of as having a national, body that, creative, not creative, New Zealand toy, Maori, all really had committees of different art forms that were trying to bring together particularly after 1990, which was 150 year celebrations of signing the treaty.

00:38:49:16 - 00:39:20:19
Julie Paama-Pengally
And so but that that group was getting a lot of, you know, come on, you need to support the Moko artists, the other committees, the weavers, the carvers. They were going I think we need to do something in this space. And so they called a meeting. And at that time, you know, I was at that first meeting, a number of artists that were already, you know, doing a bit of work in that space came to that meeting, and we made some serious decisions around it.

00:39:20:19 - 00:39:52:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
And one of those decisions was that we were going to going to work health and safety. We were going to work with modern, you know, modern materials that we could control the health and safety because we didn't want anyone stopping it. Yeah. And Samoans had had some high profile, deaths. Well, that had, a series of three to, it got to a died and one had got seriously ill from an infection because they were doing it at home, you know, illegally.

00:39:53:00 - 00:40:15:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
And so as a, as a group, we worked really hard on that health and safety. We helped the government write guidelines around that so they wouldn't come down hard on practitioners. So we opened the information around that space. We went to, important performance events that Maori it's now the national kapa haka. It's a matter Tany had been gone for a long time.

00:40:15:22 - 00:40:42:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
We went and we profiled and public moko and we went round different maori, which had a different iwi and, tribe and subtribe groups. And we did Moko. We, we talked about it and we demonstrated we demonstrate it at a museums. We went right round and we actually built the community around it. So it was a conscious decision to do it.

00:40:42:23 - 00:41:16:06
Julie Paama-Pengally
And it was a conscious decision to do it with needles. And now, 40 years later, you know, the fact that we're using modern machines, I mean, the modern machine has just gone out the gate. You know, tattoos are so popular in the machinery. It's just incredible because one of the barriers way back when I started was the expense of this expense of an autoclave, you know, to sterilize this shirt and making making needles by hand and any, you know, senses is a lot of work.

00:41:16:08 - 00:41:47:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
So. Yeah. So that was a conscious decision. And now, 40 years later, what we have gained and our design, and our ability to execute what I guess we want as artists means that it's really difficult to go. I think we'll just go back to using the ohe and carving out spaces you know. Yeah. So I mean I set I'm not just a ta moko artist, I sit and and I trained as a contemporary Maori artist as well.

00:41:47:02 - 00:42:21:01
Julie Paama-Pengally
So I kind of sit within that space of, you know, you. Yes. It's important that we understand the value of, of tools and any tools and the value of the world and what we lose and what we gain by doing things. And I practice with the, the as well. But I'm also an artist at heart and I want to get the very best, you know, if I went and retrained with the OBE and gave it the attention it needed, it would take me another 30 years.

00:42:21:01 - 00:42:47:16
Mark Titus
Sure. So it makes total sense. Makes total sense. You're able to get that art, get that message out and do it in a way that it's not going to have adverse effects on health and shut things down. I mean, that's that's perfectly clear. That makes so much sense. I heard, you know, a lot about being intentional, and I know that so much of this art is intentional.

00:42:47:18 - 00:43:20:12
Mark Titus
Both in terms of where it is on your body. You describe that beautifully earlier. Also at various points in a person's life. Can you talk a little bit more about that intentional ality, for instance, you know, getting, the, the work done on your face, versus, your, your buttocks versus, you know, a various timing of the getting these during the course of, a person's life.

00:43:20:14 - 00:43:59:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah. Now, that's that's a great question. Thanks for asking. I mean, the way miracle happens is, is very, similar, you know, for, for us, we ask the person to give us their story and you know, that that generally it can be very personal and it does you know, generally they've come to the decision to take a marking because there's something that's compelled them to do it.

00:43:59:04 - 00:44:22:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
And like if it's just a small piece on their body and it's, you know, it could be to mark a day that could be to mark graduation, it could be to mark, I want to get there, but I'm not there yet. You know, there is for me. There's no restrictions on that. It is how you personally feel and what that marking is going to commemorate remind you of.

00:44:22:04 - 00:44:26:10
Julie Paama-Pengally
It's a life journey. It's not a destination design.

00:44:26:14 - 00:44:28:02
Mark Titus
Sure. Totally.

00:44:28:04 - 00:44:58:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
So that's really important because and I and I have to talk to them about what the designs represent because they're putting their faith in something that they don't know what it's going to look like. I'm going to suggest to them where it could be. They might come with the idea of where it could be. You know, you know, I'll say, well, maybe that's not appropriate or is appropriate, depending on or it might be subtle things like you might want them near your heart and maybe it's the inside of your, personal things.

00:44:58:22 - 00:45:21:21
Julie Paama-Pengally
If they're bigger pieces, then, you know, obviously, we'll talk about we always talk about esthetics because, you know, I'm aware of how much trust they're putting in me. So I do need to say, even in, in the sense of what I've done, what they, are drawn to, Efforts more. And it's up to them how they want it to, to be done.

00:45:21:21 - 00:45:53:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
Usually it's like these days, if they come to the studio, they've made that choice. They'll bring family. If they want to bring family. I have, you know, while I have a quite an open space with other artists, I also have a privacy and, you know, intimacy. So I've done faces, which I consider to be an intimate exercise in my public space, which I think for me, that's, that's an education exercise that's people being exposed and seeing it and going, wow, this is what happens.

00:45:53:22 - 00:46:15:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, they'll come and they'll come because it's my space is at the front. They'll come in through the front door, they'll walk to the desk because I have for an appointment with someone else and they'll say, 20 people guitar playing, you know, someone lying there with a beautiful face, the cloak on them and me working on their face, and they'll be like, wow, what did I just say?

00:46:15:06 - 00:46:44:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know? So for me, if people are comfortable for doing, at doing that for me, the more champions we have, the better. So it's demystifying that and not allowing people to walk away from what's important to us, you know? So that's always been a really important part of what I do is taking the other or, you know, the non-Maori along, with that journey.

00:46:44:11 - 00:47:17:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
So, but generally, when we talk about the face, I will talk about what they do, what their roles are in the family, where they are in the family, what number? Whether they have support in their family, and also in their life. Because while thus, you know, in times of, well, would have been an entitlement at birth, now people put themselves through terrible, you know, things that they might need to achieve before they get one.

00:47:17:18 - 00:47:36:03
Julie Paama-Pengally
I have to learn to speak my language. Well, actually, we had that. We had that that was an unquestionable, you know, I need my, you know, my older sister get it first or my grandmother to get one first. You know that. Or I need to be on the mother I more I need to know my whole genealogy.

00:47:36:03 - 00:48:02:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
And I'm like, no, all you need to know is that you cannot hold it and that you are going to be able to walk with your head high, so that, you know, while it seems like a really small mark when people when that's finished, you know, there's so much it's an overwhelming experience and a privilege to be part of it.

00:48:02:05 - 00:48:13:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, it's like a relief that's like, been there all the time. It's like all the trauma is dropped. I can be who I am. So many things. It's it's incredible.

00:48:14:01 - 00:48:14:12
Mark Titus
I can see.

00:48:14:12 - 00:48:37:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
That. It's a rebirth. It's a rebirth. Yeah. Yeah. So that that even though it seems like a small thing, it's powerful. It's powerful. Even more powerful than some of the big one body pieces. Because those ones, you know, people have already overcome quite a few things to get to that point. This is when they get the bigger ones.

00:48:37:07 - 00:48:46:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
There's a lot of pain to go through. Obviously, it's quite a vague commitment. And they're walking a life that they're never going to turn back on, you know?

00:48:47:01 - 00:48:47:20
Mark Titus
Right.

00:48:47:22 - 00:49:19:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
That's. Yeah, that's a pretty big one. And even though it's not always same, it's a reminder that you and actually I read something really interesting that made me think, about it the other day, a Filipino, bit of wisdom saying that, you know, in the Philippines, they believe that you walk with this to the other world and you're still paying reverence to the spirits by what you're wearing on your skin.

00:49:19:17 - 00:49:43:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
But I was like, I really loved it, because that's what we're doing. You know, we're saying we've we we see you, we hear you here. We're bringing you here to, you know, help us through this world. We believe in you, you know, and to take that through to the afterlife, you know, that was just a reaffirmation for me that that's what we're doing.

00:49:43:13 - 00:50:14:20
Mark Titus
Beautiful, beautiful. Are there traditional rituals, moments in time, that folks are showing up to, Maori folks that are showing up to get their particular markings at this point? You know, obviously you mentioned puberty on, on, on girls. Are there correlating moments in time for boys or men or, or women in, in later stage in life?

00:50:14:22 - 00:50:43:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah, I think that today, there are, of so many young women getting, moko Kai on their chin, you know, that is something that has just taken so, you know, so rapidly in the last five years. And I think that's largely to do with the fact that no one I don't hear anyone say that ugly. You know, most people would just be fascinated.

00:50:43:10 - 00:51:16:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
So while you're at puberty, one's happening for women. That definitely happening young. You know, we're talking about 18 to 25, that age group, the boys. I feel like a lot of coming of age ones, boys, even 15, are getting quite impatient is, they want their uns. And I think generally they, they are therefore, and I think again, that's a declaration because we had body, we had moko everywhere.

00:51:16:04 - 00:51:44:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
And the forearms become popular because it shows, you know, and I think that's a positive sign, too. It's like it's almost like, So the. Yeah, the sleeve, for, for many, also the legs, I mean, it's the way they walk the world, their strength, particularly if they've lost family members, they often choose their legs.

00:51:44:06 - 00:52:08:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
And also the chest and back has become popular. I mean, I got my chest done. It was kind of. Was it maybe the second place I got done? And that was for my father, who passed. So, you know, that was to how some people it's it's the bear could speak like. But for me, it was to hold him close.

00:52:08:19 - 00:52:35:06
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah. So in terms of ritual around it, I think ritually, there is a, there's a tendency now to, to hold what we call kaupapa, and that is when, for example, and the Kenny Tango, the Maori king, a number of women came forward at once to receive their chin, and, you know, that will be held in the ceremonial marae at the house.

00:52:35:08 - 00:53:11:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
There will be, incantations. There'll be people talking, there'll be songs, tribal songs that have, you know, bring the ancestors there. And, and, you know, in the ancestral house, all the ancestors, all, the history is there and all the carvings. So, you know, that's powerful. And when you're taking that on as a community, when there's 20 people, you know, you really sign something, about where you feel your power as a community as.

00:53:12:01 - 00:53:38:16
Julie Paama-Pengally
So that is happening more frequently. That's and to be honest, that's what would have happened in the old days, although not necessarily with such flash houses, with such, you know, lavish ceremony. But there'd be like 20 virgins and you'd be lined up and that would be your job. That would be you. Because the artists would travel from out of tribe.

00:53:38:18 - 00:53:58:01
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, that artists would travel to that tribe. They'd be lined up as long as you could pay them. And and, you know, food and goods, you would be entitled to put forward those and and to be honest, some of them would, you know, many of them would want to be put forward. And you would get done in that time.

00:53:58:01 - 00:54:09:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
So it's pretty similar to what would have happened. The idea of coming into a studio and getting one is, is a much more, you know, more modern. Yeah, yeah. Manifestation of that.

00:54:09:09 - 00:54:37:19
Mark Titus
Speaking of, I just looked at the clock. I'm enraptured listening to you. And, I got to get to some points here so I can make sure to, not let you have a, a day here for yourself. One of the huge things I wanted to keen on here is, as a woman artist, as a woman Maori artist, where traditionally have women fit into this cultural practice?

00:54:38:00 - 00:54:45:09
Mark Titus
And where are you taking up the flame and moving this forward right now?

00:54:45:11 - 00:55:18:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah. That's that good question. I mean, the, the dominant narrative would have you believe that women didn't do it. And, you know, that's convenient. Like, I could conveniently go, oh, you know, I'm championing out for women. That's la la la. But that's actually not true. The, you know, pre-colonial times, woman wahine were very powerful. And one of, you know, many of the women that did this were medicine healers as well.

00:55:18:10 - 00:55:59:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
So, you know, understanding that it's really hard to find out history because that's written by white people who are not privileged to all the information. And don't, you know, necessarily hunt out these women or care what these women were doing? It's actually relies on some, some tribal recollection and there's some quite powerful ones. And the area next to me about an hour away from us, very famous woman who, in the 1907, talking a suppression act came and she defied it, and, and she wage around territory still practicing moko.

00:55:59:20 - 00:56:23:19
Julie Paama-Pengally
And people had her, you know, for quite a number of years. And she was a powerful she's an amazing weaver. And she was considered, powerful with medicine, of which, Tomiko was one of them. And she's not the only woman. There's at least three other woman that can be named in history, so I'm not breaking new ground.

00:56:23:21 - 00:56:50:08
Julie Paama-Pengally
But, you know, within that revival, there was very much that dominant rhetoric that women didn't do it. And so that, you know, but I had encouragement from, men and the revival to be part of it. It was often, you know, half hearted, but, you know, there was encouragement there, but there was also the, the dominant rhetoric.

00:56:50:08 - 00:57:10:02
Julie Paama-Pengally
So for me, as the movement, gained a little bit of traction and people would try this to me, I was always very, very good at on the academic side. So research was my thing. I'd always dived to prove. So my trajectory was always different, you know, while everybody else's men would sit around and go, yeah, yeah, this is how it was done.

00:57:10:06 - 00:57:34:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
Sterling would dive to the books and go, no, no, I can actually see that this is what they did. But, you know, so I'd be looking for every shred of evidence and be asking people that, you know, I could get that from. So yeah, I'd establish that there was a connection to women and also a connection to woman wearing some of the forms, like we call the poodle, on the, the, the thigh and buttocks that they wore out.

00:57:35:00 - 00:58:01:16
Julie Paama-Pengally
And days of old as well. And there's visual evidence of that. So, you know, being the first woman in that space meant that I kind of carried quietly carried that responsibility. But as, I was buoyed along with the group and I was visibly doing it, I didn't really matter what rhetoric people, said or whether they said, oh, you know what?

00:58:01:16 - 00:58:31:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
I'm should never wear that. I just carried on with conviction and the people that were around me supported women wearing it. The other practitioners and throughout Pacific Woman wore those types of areas. So, you know, it was obvious that those things had a proper as well. You know, since I've been doing Moko, there's at least 20 woman practitioners now, and another wow, 20 probably apprenticing.

00:58:32:00 - 00:58:59:21
Julie Paama-Pengally
So, you know, now I feel that my responsibility is to say it's okay. Woman. Now that we all doing this to decide what woman want to say. Woman. We're. You know, we can now we now have the conditions to decide going forward what women want to say and distinct way how we want to carry the tradition, where we want to wear it.

00:58:59:23 - 00:59:32:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
What is our distinctive language? And when, as woman, we do have our own will as woman access, we do have our own feminine or whatever way of, manifesting that. So, you know, that's the strength. Now we're a group and and we can definitely move forward to give women dignity in that space where they can say, this is what woman we're and this is the the genealogy of their beautiful eyes through this artist in the sense and the sadness.

00:59:32:05 - 00:59:37:03
Julie Paama-Pengally
And it links me to, you know, the days of old. Yeah.

00:59:37:05 - 00:59:53:09
Mark Titus
Do you find in your clientele and or people that come to you for ritual or, is there a even split between men and women? Are you having more women come to you than men? What does it look like? Break down? Or how do you keep track of that?

00:59:53:11 - 01:00:22:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
I probably would have had quite a lot of men in the early days and, you know, maybe 50/50 now. I mean, it's really hard for me to say no to people, but I try to focus on women because that's where I want to build the space. And the men have lots and lots of options. But I still end up, you know, I do get a lot of, young boys, you know, who maybe.

01:00:22:04 - 01:00:49:16
Julie Paama-Pengally
And they mothers bring them and they want they want them to feel safe and not be proud. And to say, you know, this, bro, or this is what being a man is that I want them to do, right? They just want someone to understand what their boy wants. I often get, the talk with the, the non-binary and, you know, very much don't want to go to a make sure.

01:00:49:18 - 01:01:09:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
And I get that and I'm always available for that. And that's one of the spaces that I'm really interested in because, men have thrown a few of those people under the bus and kind of said, no, you can't get that's for a man, and that's for a woman. And and so I'm interested in that language as well of stop it.

01:01:09:14 - 01:01:31:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, I know we had we've had TikTok. We, we've had non-binary rights throughout Maori term. What does it look like for them? You know, we cannot try and tell them that it's one or the other. So that's another reason why women are kind of important in that space. Because I think for the most part, men hold a particular persona in that space.

01:01:31:07 - 01:01:55:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
And because we've always had to probe behind, then I'm the one that's going to probe and and defend that minority space, because I've been that. Yeah. So I think probably, you know, I would 75% get woman and then 25%. Yeah. Other people that feel more comfortable coming to a woman.

01:01:56:01 - 01:02:19:13
Mark Titus
Well explained. That's lovely. And, makes perfect sense to me. I really have two more. Two more questions, and then a quick little bonus fun thing that we always do at the end of the show. How does this art form comport into traditional spiritual practices? And you've dive in. You've you've told me that you dive into the books, into the history.

01:02:19:15 - 01:02:39:02
Mark Titus
I'm sure that there's been a lot of oral, cultural history that you've gleaned along the way as well. But from an outsider's perspective, how do how does this art form really enhance and walk side by side with traditional spiritual custom and practice?

01:02:39:04 - 01:03:22:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
Importantly, pain. Very much is as an agent for or not just pain but your body body psycho symptom symptomatic relationship with pain. So interesting to see where it puts you in a different element. Yeah. And I think, you know, at the, at the very basic physical level of I'm carrying stuff, I'm going to go and get, more moko and the pain, you know, the tears, the body's reaction, the way you have to deal with your body.

01:03:23:01 - 01:04:00:13
Julie Paama-Pengally
What comes to mind when you deal with it? Put you on a plane of not being able to deny or not being out of control or having to, you know, reach inside to find it so you know, at any level, a person that isn't very culturally aware is going to find something. And that that connection. I think the way that we work as artists and indeed the way that I work, is, is to, bring that connectivity.

01:04:00:15 - 01:04:29:00
Julie Paama-Pengally
And I think, you know, at a fundamental level, that connection to, each other and our world in the language that we've collaborated to do also, you know, because we because at a very mundane level, everyone's just walking their lives. Right. So at that point, without and I'm not I haven't even talked about, karakia or any, you know, spiritual incantation.

01:04:29:00 - 01:05:08:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
But at that point, you're asking them to connect, and we're connecting to the world, and we're explaining it to each other. And then and that pain and then my thinking through, you know, my concentration through it, you're experiencing some of it. And at the other end you're going to walk out and there's something going on. Right. At whichever level of that someone engages, whether there's music, that brings it, whether there's spiritual incantation, which, you know, physically bring people present.

01:05:09:01 - 01:05:30:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
That is, you know, a form of medicine that, as there sometimes it's the more you know, a the presence is bigger because for me, it's a mediation of what else is in the room or directly in the room. So if these are 100 people, you need a lot more happening to make sure that the good stuff comes through as well.

01:05:30:17 - 01:06:10:15
Julie Paama-Pengally
Because it's not always about more is better. I think objects are really, really important bearers of that. I always ask people to bring something, significant to them. Usually. And I don't even have to ask that. Usually if someone is getting some a marking on their face, they'll bring ancestral photos. Wow. So, you know, whether it's the naan, whether it's 4 or 5 photos, though, arrange them and one will be on their chest usually or close.

01:06:10:17 - 01:06:35:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
They'll usually have a cloak or a blanket, like just recently at Savoy V, which is a Cook Island one, because someone had made that. So an object that is investors with the energy of someone else. For for Maori we believe the photograph are you know, we only use photographs of the deceased and that and that it's like evoking their spiritual presence there.

01:06:35:09 - 01:07:00:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
Wow. So those are some of the, the things that we make sense of the modern world and obviously person and presence, person and presence brings that, that as well. But yeah, the, the, the, you know, the connections that, you know, we like to kind of say our, our connection to the world, to the land and all that, you know, that was a given.

01:07:00:06 - 01:07:23:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
And we, we we took it seriously. We spoke seriously. And I speak seriously myself to what I do. But I don't need to speak. You know, I ask people to to think carefully about what they are getting to, but maybe we don't do it in the same way all the time. That we used to do it.

01:07:23:08 - 01:07:43:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
And that's because we don't have our chief expert in the room. Yeah. Because, you know, I was it wasn't the everyone. I didn't do everything back then, you know, there wasn't one person that did everything. It took the whole community to do it. And that's an important thing to remember, that we are nothing without our community. And that's what we have to encourage.

01:07:43:20 - 01:07:48:19
Julie Paama-Pengally
And not an alien single, you know, experience.

01:07:49:01 - 01:08:06:02
Mark Titus
Absolutely. And, I think you were intuiting my my last question as well about someone coming to you. And what is your criteria? How do you evaluate who will get a mark from you?

01:08:06:04 - 01:08:18:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
I'm a little bit more discerning. I have a few, gatekeepers. Because most people will, email and, you know, things like that. And, and I have an inbox of 10,000, so.

01:08:18:16 - 01:08:19:21
Mark Titus
Oh, my God.

01:08:19:23 - 01:08:21:18
Julie Paama-Pengally
I'm not very good at cleaning it.

01:08:21:20 - 01:08:24:22
Mark Titus
Yeah, you and me both.

01:08:25:00 - 01:08:54:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
I've recently got someone that does that. I don't think she's very far through it. Wow. But, Oh, my gosh. You know, it's so difficult because sometimes their hearts are pulled out, you know, like that. Pull it out before you even see them. And you're just like, I have to do it, you know? And it can be really a difficult process to get these people to a point where they want to do it, you know, like it's for one woman recently and she wasn't Maori.

01:08:54:22 - 01:09:21:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
And just to be clear, I, you know, I will definitely do non-Maori at one point. Never. But now our revival is healthy. You know, for me, and I still call it moko. I will give someone, the time if I feel that they understand it and they are going to be good carriers of it, because for me, they are champion.

01:09:21:04 - 01:09:40:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
They become my champion. They haven't gone down the road and got some piece of crap from someone else. The start, you know, I've brought them into our culture, you know. Sure. I brought them into the value of what they're getting. So, one woman, you know, it took me a full year to get. She's just so miserable with her daughter's suicide.

01:09:40:11 - 01:10:02:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
But that's what she wanted, you know? And for me, you know, I couldn't get past that there, and I had to do it. Even if it took me a year to get her there. Wow. So, on the other hand, there's people that walk in and I'm like, yeah, I can see it. And. And I guess that's part of it, too, you know?

01:10:02:11 - 01:10:25:05
Julie Paama-Pengally
I can see that. And I see you and, we're going to we're going to do that. And that's the journey they might ring up and cancel. And that's not their journey at this time. But yeah. So that's what I say. I'm a sucker, so I have to hide the black. But because I can be a little bit of a sucker and people know that.

01:10:25:07 - 01:10:44:04
Mark Titus
Oh, man. Well, you're painting such a beautiful visual and I, as you're speaking, I'm. I'm envisioning what it's like to be at your studio and to all of the sights and sounds and and I hope I can visit you someday. And it's it seems.

01:10:44:04 - 01:10:45:06
Julie Paama-Pengally
A welcome to you.

01:10:45:06 - 01:11:00:04
Mark Titus
Very beautiful. Oh, thank you so much. And, we always finish this show off with a fun little bonus round. I'm really curious what you're going to say. It's the same question for everybody. It's just it's a it's a little nap. I should have.

01:11:00:04 - 01:11:01:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
Listened to someone answer.

01:11:01:07 - 01:11:23:02
Mark Titus
Yeah, I you're you're getting blindsided. It's, it's a little imagination game. But, just, you know, knock on wood here, as I say this, but but it's kind of sort of happening all over the world. Now, let's just say you had rising waters and you only you, of course, you get your loved ones and your your free friends out first.

01:11:23:04 - 01:11:39:05
Mark Titus
But if you could only grab one thing before the rising waters were going to take your house away, what would you grab? What one physical thing would you grab to take with you?

01:11:39:06 - 01:11:45:10
Julie Paama-Pengally
And one speechless at.

01:11:45:12 - 01:11:50:16
Mark Titus
I have an idea about this, but I'm so curious to see what you're going to come up with.

01:11:50:18 - 01:12:20:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
I almost want to say nothing. I almost want to say nothing because. You know, I, I don't have an object that, you know, the object that I have, actually, that is probably the most connected is my grandmother's bracelet. Which I which I never take off. And for me, there's nothing inanimate that is going to be worth taking.

01:12:20:07 - 01:12:38:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
You know, for me, a five rescued the people. That's all that actually matters. I can't think of anything that I could not do without. It was about to lose my lost. Well, I can draw. I can do everything again.

01:12:38:09 - 01:12:46:07
Mark Titus
I, I was pretty sure you were going to say that. Or what's on your skin. And the bracelet, though. It's.

01:12:46:07 - 01:12:49:20
Julie Paama-Pengally
That would be cliche, but it's a little bit. Yes, yes, yes.

01:12:49:22 - 01:13:01:03
Mark Titus
The bracelet. Would you hold that up again? That. That looks like my wife has an almost identical bracelet from her grandmother that is always on her wrist.

01:13:01:05 - 01:13:27:23
Julie Paama-Pengally
Yeah. My grandmother, she lived a very, very healthy life. And, you know, I didn't have anything to do with giving this to me. But always when we sat around with my grandmother and we had a big dining table, I would hear like, you know, like my grandma, your bracelet and everyone around me because I'd watch it hover as she passed things and everyone remembered me for that.

01:13:27:23 - 01:13:58:12
Julie Paama-Pengally
And my mother Bliss's soul went, I want to give that to Julie. And I had to put a little link in it because my my grandmother had a tiny, tiny world. But, you know, I have like netball games, anything that I've done throughout history I've never wanted. And that's my mother's side. That's my practical side interest. I've never wanted to take that off, but I don't actually have, you know, like, I can't say I have a memory of my dad or anything else, you know?

01:13:58:14 - 01:14:03:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
So that's why I'm like, no, there's nothing like that's so interesting.

01:14:03:11 - 01:14:17:20
Mark Titus
All right. Well, last, last, last one is now it's something metaphysical. Not not a physical, physical thing. But if you could only take one thing, one attribute about you that makes you you, what would be that one thing you would take?

01:14:17:22 - 01:14:21:21
Julie Paama-Pengally
If I could take my attribute? Now? Are you talking about someone brainwashed me.

01:14:21:21 - 01:14:25:09
Mark Titus
There's only one. That's right. If you can only take. Good. Well, well.

01:14:25:09 - 01:14:27:09
Julie Paama-Pengally
For instance, a covered well.

01:14:27:11 - 01:14:41:21
Mark Titus
Well framed. I'm going to. I'm going to steal that for the next. The next hapless victim on this show. Yes. That's a good way of putting it. If you were going to be brainwashed and you could only keep one thing that's going to make. Julie. Julie, what is that?

01:14:41:22 - 01:14:58:01
Julie Paama-Pengally
I guess I'm trying to take the language. Trying to think of the language of describing that because this is one way it was it's I forget. Yeah. No, it's which,

01:14:58:03 - 01:15:11:14
Julie Paama-Pengally
Would be, it would be to. And then it's just trying to find the right way to say it, but.

01:15:11:16 - 01:15:32:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
Because there's no such thing as truth. I would say it would be always because I think it's a true creative, really, as to actually always question. Yeah. As always, question. The world and go, is, is this the way it should be? I think it should be better and trust us. But it's two things.

01:15:32:22 - 01:15:34:22
Mark Titus
So I'm going to let.

01:15:34:23 - 01:15:38:06
Julie Paama-Pengally
You use your question. Oh.

01:15:38:08 - 01:15:40:14
Mark Titus
You're so delightful. I'm going to let you have two.

01:15:40:16 - 01:15:42:04
Julie Paama-Pengally
So yes.

01:15:42:04 - 01:16:01:04
Mark Titus
Julie. Well Julie I'm up. Angeli, thank you so much for your time, your wisdom, your passion, your truths. And, I know our listeners are going to be indulging in this episode, and probably this one is going to be one to save it for a long time. If you ever get to Seattle, let me know. I'd love to take good care of you.

01:16:01:08 - 01:16:07:22
Julie Paama-Pengally
Solutely. Yes, one of my favorite people is in Seattle. I was so close. I was so close. I was in Vancouver. Oh my.

01:16:07:22 - 01:16:12:12
Mark Titus
Goodness. Well, I'm going to Vancouver tomorrow to

01:16:12:14 - 01:16:24:11
Julie Paama-Pengally
Well, now Hannah's traveling from Seattle to, Tijuana. I don't know if you know Nahum, but he's one of the, traditional practitioners. And one week we will see Nathan from Seattle.

01:16:24:11 - 01:16:26:03
Mark Titus
Beautiful. Well.

01:16:26:05 - 01:16:28:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
I look forward to having you in New Zealand.

01:16:28:09 - 01:16:34:17
Mark Titus
Thank you. I will absolutely stay in touch. And, for now, Julie, thank you so much. And we'll see you down the trail.

01:16:34:18 - 01:16:36:17
Julie Paama-Pengally
Been a privilege. Thank you.

01:16:36:19 - 01:16:38:11
Mark Titus
Bye for now.

01:16:38:12 - 01:16:49:07
Julie Paama-Pengally
Thank you too.

01:16:49:09 - 01:17:13:01
Music
How do you say what you love?
How do you say what you love?
How do you say what you love?
How do you say what you love?

01:17:13:03 - 01:17:37:02
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to Save What You Love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on whatever platform you're listening from and leaving a comment on Apple Podcasts. It really helps get the word out. Check out photos on our Instagram feed. We're at Save What You Love podcast, and you can get links from today's featured guest in the show notes of this episode.

01:17:37:04 - 01:18:06:00
Mark Titus
Join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter at evaswild.com, and then clicking on connect in the upper corner. You'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door, and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way. That said, Evaswild.com the word save spelled backwards, wild.com. This episode was produced by Emilie Firn and edited by Patrick Troll.

01:18:06:02 - 01:18:11:22
Mark Titus
Original music was created by Whiskey Class. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you all down the trail.

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