Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester - Attraction in Non-Ordinary States of consciousness

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Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester is the Madrinha and President of Céu do Montréal, a Santo Daime (Ayahuasca) Church she founded in 1997 in Montréal, Canada.
She is a transpersonal counselor, she trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Assagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof.
She worked with Health Canada from 2000 until 2017 to achieve an Section 56 Exemption to import and serve the Santo Daime
Sacrament (Ayahuasca).
She is an ordained Interfaith Minister with a Doctorate in Divinity.
From 1986 to 2018 she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice.
She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening A Guide to Self-Discovery, Self-Mastery and Self-Care, Volume One and Two.
She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being and personal transformation

https://www.revdrjessicarochester.com/

https://psychedelicscene.com/2024/06/20/entheogens-psychedelics-nosc-and-the-search-for-wholeness/

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the true life podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing and the wind is at your back. We have with us friend of the show. Incredible teacher and a wonderful individual, Reverend Dr. Jessica Rochester. She is the Mahadrina and president of the Sioux de Montreal Asanto Daime Ayahuasca Church. She founded in nineteen ninety seven in Montreal, Canada. She is a transpersonal counselor. She trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Asagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof. She worked with Health Canada from two thousand until twenty seventeen to achieve a section fifty six exemption to import and serve the Santo Daime sacrament. She is an ordained interfaith minister with a doctorate in divinity from nineteen eighty six to twenty eighteen. She has been a workshop leader, teacher and in private practice. She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening, a guide to self-discovery, self-mastery and self-care volumes one and two. She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and wellness, health and well-being, and personal transformation. And today we're going to get into some ideas about power and attraction and non-ordinary states of consciousness. I am excited. Dr. Jessica, how are you today? Well, I'm happy to see you, as always, and totally always enjoying our conversations and hope that they are of some interest and benefit to others. An important focus for both you and I is educate. Educate, educate. Open conversations up and see where they go and see what people are thinking about and worrying about and caring about and see where things are getting along just great and where other things are just going off in the wrong track. And since that seems to be happening a lot in our culture today, Today we're talking about, it's kind of started as a follow-up on our last conversation, which was about transference and projection and countertransference in the non-ordinary states of consciousness. Well, in general, in life and then how in the non-ordinary states of consciousness, it's amplified and our need to be more sensitive to, you know, those moments if we are with somebody and supporting them. or in a ritual with them and be mindful of ourselves and our own stuff and what we might be attaching to a situation or allowing and permitting others to put on us and accepting their transfers and projections, which can be really quite sticky, right? Yeah, absolutely. Sticky situations when that happens, okay? So we're actually... You know, I said, hey, let's carry on with the theme and let's talk about power and let's talk about attraction. Attraction is something that I found there's some misunderstanding about it. And so I thought what we could do is, as I often do, is start with what's the definition of that? What are the basic understanding of that so that we can launch from a conversation that working with some good definitions. Is that okay? That sounds fantastic. Absolutely. So what is, what is attraction in science? Let's start there. Basic physics. So those of you listening, you know, dust off your high school science course, unless you're one of those neuroscience folks. Okay. You already know what I'm going to be saying, or if this is this, okay. So, Basic in the scientific world, you know, the law of attraction is the type of force that causes any objects to come together. Okay. Even if the objects are, there's going to be some kind of an attraction, even if they're not close. And so the fundamental or first force that we can think of would be gravity, right? It is gravity that holds the moon circling the earth. It is the, in our solar system, it is a gravitational pull of the sun that is working in this field. We have to think of space-time as being a field that we are in, okay? And that this gravitational pull is actually working through space-time. And there's these attractions and reactions to attractions that happen on a very basic fundamental manner. And that is we're walking on the planet earth because of gravity. The moon is circling the earth because of gravity. The earth is circling the sun because of gravity. Our solar system is circling within our galaxy because of gravity. Our galaxy is circling and moving through the universe because of the attractions of the other galaxies that are moving. When you think of it that way, it's really quite fascinating, isn't it? Makes us really quite small, okay? But then we have to understand that everything that is outside of us is also somehow inside of us, okay? And if we look at it that way, and that everything that is outside is inside and inside is outside, that there's other things at force too, okay? So if we look at what is, we're still in science part. We're going to get to psychology and then transversal psychology in a sec. So hang on. Okay. Biological traction says it's an inherent drive for association and merging of compatible elements at all levels of biological complexity. Bone will be attracted to bone. Blood will be attracted to blood. In your immune system, there's all kinds of factors that are happening, our neurotransmitters. I mean, if we look on a biological level, it's its own kind of gravitational field that is happening with our body. We're cell by cell, structure by structure. There is this interplay that we can call attraction on a biological basis, right? Now, if we take that a step further, what are we talking about in psychology? Now, let's agree first off off the bat that no two people doesn't matter what their background or education are going to agree on what is and what isn't attractive. Really, really, you know, and there's so many things at play in that cultural, social, religious, it just goes on and on and on. How many factors are at play? A lot of them unconscious. Okay. Which is really quite fascinating right now. What isn't so deeply understood, if you don't watch nature programs, is visual cues, hormones, genetics, evolutionary factors, the physical senses, our nervous system and the immune system all play a role in what attracts us and what doesn't attract us and what can even repulse us. All of those things play a role. Now, this is just, I'm still in science, okay? Yeah. These things are research studied. They're based in fact there, whether it's observational or whether it's studying, you know, the biochemistry of the body and enabling us to understand, you know, deep things about, and you know, all we have to do is think about a baby, a young baby, you know, you've got children. So what does the baby do? It's the senses. They discover it with their eyes and then they wiggle towards it. And then they, smell it and lick it and taste it and touch it. All of the senses are a go. Okay. Now that's unfortunate. If it's like the dog's tail bowl, you know, the garbage they've just knocked over. Okay. But it's all about explore through the senses. Now, as, as we develop, we're older, we're taught social norms, which teaches that we don't go around sniffing people and touching people and doing things like that. It's, not acceptable, right? If we're cats and dogs, but any dog run, that's real cool. You know, you can sniff and touch and do all the things that you want. And on that level, they're just doing what is natural for all biological beings. Okay. We have it groomed out of us because it's inappropriate social behavior, right? We have to ask before we touch. We have to ask before we smell. We have to ask before we taste. Okay. And so, The innate, are you agreeing with me here? Yeah. Attraction is there when we see something we're like. We're not vastly different from that baby who's just caught her eye on some sparkly toy, okay? It's going to get touched and smelled in the mouth, right? Yep. And so there's some aspect of that, that sensual aspect of it that is very much driving our attraction to things in the world. So when we see a cat or a dog, we might want to pat it or a horse or something. You know, we want to touch. If you go to many zoos or wildlife sanctuaries, they'll often have a section for children to touch. So it could be feeding the goats, for example, or the llamas or, you know, creatures that don't really mind if they have an exchange with humans. And, and, You know, this is a wonderful way for children to learn because we're learning about that. We're attracted to it. We're attracted to smell it, to taste it, to touch it, to, you know, I walk a lot in my neighborhood, which is, you know, thankfully very ethnically diverse. And it's one of the things that I love about it, which means if you're traveling around on a walk around any meal time, you're going to smell wonderful things coming out of somebody's kitchen, especially in the summer when the windows are open, right? And when we understand how much of our life we're picking up that we're not even processing, we walk past the bakery and smell that fresh bread, we walk past someone's house, they've got the lasagna in the oven or the minestrone on the top of the stove and all these wonderful, delightful smells are capturing us and attracting us. I'll give you another silly little example. A clothing moss can smell wool about half a kilometer away. I'm just going to say, you know, we think if we were to really understand the world around us and the things that are happening all the time, kind of just below our consciousness that can get activated and understood more deeply When we understand how natural these instincts are, you know, and to be aware of them, to have a little sense of humor, to get educated about it, to have a little sense of humor about these things, to see these things as being natural, but also understanding boundaries and limits and when it is okay and when it isn't okay. I'm not going to march up and knock on the door and say, Hey, can I have a bowl? Smells fabulous. You know, We learn, okay? We learn. All of this is going to make sense as we keep talking. We will bring it back down in a few minutes. Now, let's move into psychology, okay? Now, let's look to, first of all, Jung, because what did he have to say about attraction, okay? Because he had so much to say about meaning and synchronicity and the unconscious and the collective unconscious that you can guess that he had some thoughtful things to say. So he posits that The way your life is at this very moment in time was arrived at by what your beliefs, feelings, thoughts, and intention were focused on. In other words, the things that attracted you brought you to where you are now. So let's say you're at school and you are fascinated by, I don't know, jump in. What were you fascinated by in school? Fascination. I was sort of a late bloomer, and I was fascinated on behaviors and why. I didn't do the best in school. I wasn't the best at math. I definitely wasn't the best at English. But I was very curious about why people were doing the things they were doing, so much that I would be distracted. And I'm like, why is that person sitting like that? What the heck are they doing? I don't get it. Why are you doing that? The teacher would be like, George, are you with us? Hey, George. George. Hey, you in the back. Yes. Yeah. Over here, buddy. So you're interested in the dynamics of life. Yes, absolutely. And if you'd been in a different setting, then a differently trained teacher would have helped you develop that as a skill. Okay? It's still a skill. This is why you do podcasts. Because you're interested in what people are doing. So it was there from the beginning, but the system around you did not know how to encourage it and see it as a strength. So those things that attract us, maybe it was sports. Okay, commonwealth, maybe it was sports. You know, somebody's attracted to sports. And so that becomes, because they join certain sports, they play certain sports, and then they advance in certain sports, and then it either changes gives them something, builds some confidence, gives them some tools. It helps them meet some people. Those other people open different doors. It means that when you go to school, the people that you're in swim club or swim team with or on the soccer field with are now your buddies and you support each other in your school things. And so because of an attraction to something, exactly what Jungian thoughts are, the things that you were attracted by and attracted to help to form your beliefs, feelings, thoughts, and attention, which then refocus things so that you made different decisions going forward. So whether it was math or science or sports or history or something, whatever it is that we're interested in, we then focus on it. So you see somebody who loves nature and their plants, you know, it's going to focus on having a garden and they're going to take care of their plants and talk to them and water them and feed them and, you know, understand them and place them well and do all of those things that are good for the plants and the plants will enhance their life. Okay. The person who buys a plant and then just sticks it in the corner and doesn't water it and doesn't like, well, does that plant thrive? No, usually dies. Yeah. Usually dies. And so this is what happens, that which we give our attention to. So now we're going to jump down to Harville Hendrick, so you know. I like to always give a shout out because there's a few things that he did that are really, I feel, important in understanding. He talks about the imago, the inner image of love, and how from the time we're babies, we develop an inner image of love. based on how we experience love and care and nurturing. And based on that, we develop this internal image that we then go through life putting that image on or seeking out that image. And when we find a good match in someone else, instead of realizing, hmm, they're just like mommy, daddy, my older sister, okay, or my mean teacher or, you know, things, And we think we are attracted to that because we don't realize that there's something inside of us that it is attracting us. Now, you know, in transpersonal psychology, we talk about attraction and also repulsion as an inner dynamic in which we will be attracted to certain things because they are like us or they could be opposite to us. So if someone's an introvert, they might be highly attracted to other introverts because they have a degree of comfort. Vice versa, they could be highly attracted to an extrovert because it offers them an opportunity to be with their disowned self, the part of them that won't let themselves out. And so these are attractions, and they can be deeply unconscious. We may be attracted to someone and have no idea what it is, It may not be a romantic attraction or a sexual attraction of any kind. It may just be an intellectual attraction, a creative attraction. Now again, in kind of spiritual and transpersonal psychologies, there's also a teaching about that which attracts us is wholesome teaching. That when we are attracted to something that there's going to be some teaching there for us and if we enter into that arena understanding that there that this is something for us to be learning okay that wonderful saying about when the student is ready the teacher will appear then we are attracted to the teacher or we run away screaming to me I'm not ready for that one okay so um We have all of these different ways of looking at attraction and understanding it on a basic physics level, a biological level, and then a psychological level and a spiritual level where there's possibility of learning, of growth, of understanding, and how long that circumstance, situation, person will be a teacher for us depends on us. on what the lesson is. You know, there's the, I'm sure I've told it before, that I have two great teachings on teachers. And one is, I think it's a story told by, can I tell it? Yes, by Jack. Yeah, please. Please tell it. Okay. And so he tells the story of a young Buddhist man who's been learning with his teacher for a number of years. And he's reached the point where In that lineage, you then go and you present yourself and you ask if you can now learn, study with the teacher's teacher. It's sort of like, can I graduate from kindergarten and go into grade one? Can I graduate from junior school and go into high school? It's kind of a graduation of teachings. And so he was a bit nervous that day. He thought he's all prepared. It happened to be raining. He came in. I mean, you know, did his, you know, recognition and respect to his teacher. And then he asked, did his teacher think he was ready to be able to start teaching, you know, a student of the teacher's teacher. The teacher kind of looked for a moment and he said, I see the rain outside. He said, which side of your shoes did you place your umbrella? That's something I couldn't answer. He stayed with him for another eleven years. So there's that thing, you know. And another story is I had, now deceased from cancer, it's many years, many years, but for decades, a very beloved and dear close friend of mine. And he shared a story with me about that he came to a deep understanding about how he was always looking for a teacher. but there was something inside of him that went from course to course, from program to program. And he finally come down to the understanding that he says, there's something inside of me that's looking for the right teacher. And he said, I want you to share this story with you. And in the meantime, he'd had great, learned a lot about life himself and all kinds of things in his journey. And he said, he, He'd heard about this Hindu teacher that was coming into town and he got all excited and he'd heard so much about this teacher and how fabulous she was. And so he got all excited and he got swept up in the whole hoo-ha around it. The teacher's coming and the teacher's coming. And so he books in and gets his ticket and gets into the venue and he listens with rapt attention to this teacher. and her philosophies and how she is interpreting, um, you know, various Hindu, you know, she's like going to be the guru of the gurus. Okay. And so he was, he's smitten in his own words. Oh, this is his teacher. Finally he's found his teacher. Okay. So he humbly goes and gets in line. Okay. All the people who want to thank her. Okay. And it gets in line and, He gets up, so he's going to be the next person, okay? And the teacher has a helper or assistant beside her who's available to do whatever the teacher wants, you know? And just before my friend is about to step forward to say, how can I be your student and, you know, what do I have to do and stuff like that, this marvelous teacher turns and speaks to her assistant in a way that you and I might consider unacceptable. Okay? And my friend is stunned. Absolutely stunned. And then he has his moment of awakening. And he realizes this woman has been his ultimate teacher. So the person in front of him disappears. And my friend Bill is standing in front of her. He does namaste in front of her. And he says, thank you so much for being my teacher. And he walks off. So here you have one thing for eleven years, here you have one not even starting. And so isn't it interesting what we attract and how in the moment what we attract, what is attracted to us? You know, for some people we're the moon orbiting in their circle and other people we're the earth and they're trying to orbit us, right? And so how we awaken ourselves to these dynamics. Now, anything you want to add on that before we start jumping in a different direction? About attraction. Yeah. Sometimes I feel in my life that you can learn a lot about the people in your life or the... the attractions in your life, if you investigate the attraction of your ideas, like what is it that you're thinking about on some level? And for me, that seems to translate into relationships. Is there a, is there a through line that comes between the ideas and movements you're attracted to and the people that you're attracted to? Well, absolutely. Yes. Here's like attracting like, so You love golf and you have a golf buddy and you guys get together once a week, twice a week and play golf and there's nothing makes you happier than playing golf and then having breakfast afterwards and having a fun time talking about how well you did on the course, telling a few lies about your scores from what I hear from my golf friends. Now you can take out golf and put in anything, any particular sport or activity or interest. And so like will attract like. This is why there's clubs, why there's societies, associations, groups, okay, because people are drawn together to talk about and discuss. And so you have, you know, the Westminster Dog Show, okay, for all the dog lovers. They get to watch all the breeds and they get to meet all their friends and their buddies who are raising the same breed and talk about the food and the diet and the clipping and the, you know. And you have gardening clubs, you have bird watching clubs. I mean, whatever it is, whatever activity it is, there's an association, a society, a group, something for it, whereby people can get together and they can talk about the things that are important to them. And so for sure, that's where like is attracting like. Yeah, go ahead. So we've talked about gravity being a form of attraction, but I can't escape the idea of magnetism as well. It's in a lot of the literature when we talk about animal magnetism and whether it's something inside of you that seeks to be more pulling something that is more towards you. What say you about magnetism and attraction in the human condition? Well, we're right back to hormones, genetics, and evolutionary factors. There's research done on this that apparently within a nanosecond of seeing someone, our unconscious has already scoped them on a physical level for genetic compatibility. And our unconscious has scoped them for our psychological, emotional, attraction, repulsion, something. There's so many things that are going on. I mean, wouldn't it be simple if we were kind of lions and the lion lets the female lion, the lioness lets the male lion know that she's interested because she goes and swishes her tail over his face. It's as simple as that. And you're going, why is she doing that? Well, okay. Why is she doing that is because she's letting, she's, she has all her close to where her hormones are excreting. And so she's signaling to him, okay, I'm, I'm ready to meet because if you are interested in me right now, I'm going to have your young and I'm going to be increasing your, the pride of which you are. And so this is how the females, you know, you know, that can go into very deep conversation about alpha males and alpha females and, You know, there's so many layers to that kind of attraction. And that operates in human societies equally as, you know, mammal societies and other. You know, people are attracted to often that which looks powerful, that which looks like it's going to. And here's where the genetics and the evolutionary factors. Will that person look like a good mate for me? will that person be able to, you know, if it's a female looking for a partner who's going to protect them or defend them, or if it's a male looking for a partner that's going to fulfill certain feelings that they have and be a good mother to their child. Now that's in the very basics of biology. Okay. That's not accounting for all of the other things, but that's part of the kind of, genetic evolutionary biology of what's happening when people are attracted to it a lot of it has to do with mating and producing offspring because what would happen if if we weren't attracted to people we wouldn't mate we wouldn't have offspring and then well there you go okay it's what david attenberg the great british scientist calls the mating game right he did a fabulous series on on that anybody interested on BBC Earth, you will learn infinitely more about yourself as a human by learning about things in nature because the same games are being played. Look at me and putting all our best forward and fluffing our feathers and spreading our tail and giving our special song and doing our little dance and swishing our tail and being unavailable and checking out all of the other, you know, the competition, let's say. And making alignments to try and win over whatever it is that we want to win over. And if we study these things in nature, we quickly see that they're operating full time in the human experience. You know, no doubt about it. And again, a sense of humor. Yeah. You know, got to have a sense of humor. You know, we need to take this seriously, but. Hold it lightly at the same time if that's possible and if people can understand what I mean by that. Now, Scott Peck, the American psychiatrist, his one book that I think everyone should read that's really worth reading is The Road Less Traveled. It's old, but it's never going to go out of style. He says, what we love, we give our attention to. And this is also about attractions. Again, if we love our garden, we will give our time and our attention to it. If we love our family, we will do that. There's a sport that we love, we give our time and attention to. There's a project that has heart, soul, and soul meaning for us. We will give our time and attention to that. And then as humans, we can see where that which originally attracted us may now start to go, because of the way the human experience is, start to go off. in a bizarre way that leads to problems. And so then we're looking at the dark side of attraction. There's all the natural, ordinary, evolutionary, biological, scientific laws of attraction. We can't argue with the solar system and the galaxies and the universe. It's all happening. Unless everybody thinks that this has all been imagined on a Hollywood backlog. know it's this is the reality around us okay and then what is this dark side of attraction what is that I think it's the the desire to become better without actually doing anything you're attracted to the easy road you're attracted to a magical idea that seems plausible or is is like that's like that dark side to me like wanting something you can't have and that's the only reason you really want it and then the more you realize you can't have it the more you want it it's sort of like a a faulty feedback loop on some level okay so attraction can turn into desire and craving And what kind of philosophies are feeding this? Let's just take a look at more. Okay, so now we're going to jump into something else. I actually got so excited by what some people had written that I printed it up and I might read some of them. How's that? That sounds wonderful. Something that became very popular in the last little while, the law of attraction, became very popular and So, you know, for me, I just went, oh, that's nonsense, you know, when it first came out. And then I thought, you know what? Because there's a grain of truth in what's being said, this is often where the greatest problems happen. It's just a little bit enough of the truth that people swallow the whole thing. So every generation, okay, in the past century has had a breakout. self self-help book and for reasons okay so I'm gonna list them here napoleon hills think and grow rich um one of the originals okay we can go back to plato but we can't we can go back to plato okay then go back to jesus jesus talks about this buddha talked about this okay what you think and what you reach for and you know all that jazz anything talk about it So then it was Norman Vincent Peale, the power of positive thinking, right? That was about twenty years later. Then Tony Robbins, Weaken the Giant Within. These are all like very well-known books from him. And then that came along in the nineties. And then the last go around has been Rhonda Bryn's The Secret, a short that he re-describes the infamous law of attraction. Funny thing about all these books is they say more or less the same thing. Four things. Mind your own thoughts. Okay. This is true. Buddha teaches us. Jesus teaches us. What you're thinking. Okay. Every spiritual path will teach you this. Every good psychologist should be teaching this. Okay. Pay attention to your thoughts. Okay. Stay focused on your own goals. Yeah. So far, good advice. Okay. These first, the first three people that I named, okay, listed in this article are saying, You know, these are the things you're talking about. Stay positive and focused on your goals. Very good advice. You want to do well in soccer. Practice. Yeah. Just practice. You're going to win some games. You're going to lose some games. See what you learn. See what you discovered about yourself. Okay. Keep reaching for your goals. Now, then it starts to slide a little bit. Ignore self-doubt and criticism. I don't know about ignoring that. Okay. Okay. Sometimes we do have to question ourselves and we do have to be open to criticism. I mean, I've taken tennis lessons decades ago now, but if my tennis coach was critical about how I was serving, what was that? An argument with him? I didn't know him. Did I? Then he didn't say it. So, okay. Visualize and concentrate on what you want and you will eventually have it. Okay, well you see how it starts off and then it starts to drift into something that can be easily misunderstood and then misused. And that's what happened with this latest go around this last few decades with let's call it the law of attraction. So if we look at each author brought the same generational edge to the same fundamental ideas. When Jesus talked about it, he was speaking to his generation, okay? Ditto for Plato. Hill's book was launched right after the Great Depression, so it was speaking to think and grow rich, okay? Everybody just lost, you know, their homes, their farm, and their savings, okay? Heal's work launched after World War II, focused on having a calm and happy domestic life with good relationships, okay? That's what he was focused on. So how do we build positive thinking? So everything was worked to try and suit what was happening in the world and society, right? Then you have Robin's book, okay, focused on self-actualization and living up to one's potential. Nothing wrong with any of that so far. You can look at it and say, yeah, these were timely things. It was the same kind of message. It was just dressed up a little bit different for the society in which it was being spoken. So it's not surprising then. Then along comes this book called The Secret, launched amid the social media smartphone age, bringing a, I love this expression, a harrowing narcissism. and I'm the center of the universe angle to the same old ideas. So what started out as positive thinking, positive approach to self-improvement, self-actualization, relationships, society, do your best, bring the best of yourself into your work, into your relationships, that's kind of where it all started. It drifted into something that is now morphed into what this process author who published in HuffPost, everybody knows what that is, which is The Law of Attraction as a Crop by Jenny Mustafa. What started out as positive thinking to self-improvement devolved into an elaborate hoax packaged and presented by self-anointed spiritual gurus designed to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about their ideas. And then you click their PayPal buttons. So a few other conversations about this. It's a playbook for entitlement and self-absorption. So this philosophy about what is now known as the law of attraction. All you have to do is visualize it. And if you're not, you're not being positive. So it went from try to have a positive attitude, try to bring the best of yourself. It went to something else. So it took some basic truths and this kind of modern, western, current philosophy around the law of attraction is it's a playbook for entitlement. Used to manifest good things in their life, if you look at it, it's all about physical reality things. So all about the BMW on my thing, the home I want, I want to be a TikTok star. It's all about Western civilization materialism. I can have whatever I want. I can do whatever I want. I can be whatever I want. Well, there's kind of a little bit of a truth in that. There is a small truth. You can aim for it. You may not fully achieve it. I was talking somewhere about when only Trekkies are going to understand this. When my daughter was really young, she told me that what she really wanted to do in life was go to Starfleet Academies. She did not understand that it was a made up academy on Star Trek. Okay. She thought it was an actual real academy that she could go to and learn to be, you know, a real, you know, so I said, terrible darling, you can go, you can become an astronaut if that's what you really want. It's just that we're not at the warp speed yet. You know, the closest you might get is the moon. So, You know? Right. There's these innate human longings for things. We were talking about attraction. We're trapped in some things. There's some things we want to do. There's some things we long for. Okay? And then somebody publishes a book or gives an idea, talk, a podcast, and says, all you have to do is imagine it. If you're not getting it, it's because you're not imagining it hard enough. And that's where it's devolved to. It's really quite scary. They believe if they wish for something... and take actions towards it, the universe will hear their cry and give it to them. Will nothing in my life journey or my spiritual teaching or all my spiritual teachers have ever told me that the cosmos is a personal Santa Claus wish list. Throughout life, all we have to do is wish for it and it's going to magically appear. This is magical thinking of a three-year-old. You know, I want doggy now, and it should be under the Christmas tree, you know? And so it has appealed to the most juvenile aspect of our society, the most kind of entitled and narcissistic way of seeing ourselves in the world, okay? So here, for those of you who are interested, a doctor, he's an MD and a PhD, so we can chapeau to him for his academic achievements. A Dr. Neil Farber reading in Psychology Today. Okay. And later on LinkedIn, I can post the link for those of you who are more interested. He wrote, he actually went the whole gamut. He was so, he wrote a number of blogs about the law of attraction and how he wasn't happy with it. And he got so much criticism on it. The way he did was he did a very good research thing. He actually became a certified law of attraction. He actually took a course. He went deep into it to see exactly what it is before he criticized it. Okay, so he really did the work on it. And then he came back and said, okay, well, no one can criticize me for misunderstanding the course. No one can criticize me for not getting it. I get it. And here's what I really think about it. So he's written a number of articles on this. And he says the key points are the law of attraction, such as it is understood today, not what we were talking beforehand about. biology and science and things like that. But this law of attraction, but if I, you know, if I want something, all I have to do is manifest it and the universe will give it to me. And, you know, if I haven't got it, it's because I didn't, it's my fault. I haven't asked for it enough and stuff like that. Okay. The law of attraction is pseudoscience with conclusions based on erroneous, unfounded and incorrect assumptions. Okay. Yes. It assumes that, One is completely responsible for any goal that is not achieved, no matter how unrealistic. Well, my daughter wanted to be a member of Starfleet Academy. That's not realistic. It's not her fault that she couldn't be part of something that doesn't exist. Right. So law of attraction philosophy tends to give the misguided belief that there is meaning behind random data. Now, Many moons ago, you and I talked about meaning. There's different levels of meaning. There's transpersonal meaning, associative meaning, transcendental meaning, and archetypal meaning. There's all these different ways of having meaning. But when we get caught into these misguided philosophies, belief systems, we will start to see meaning where there is no meaning. We will start to read things because of what we've been taught about this, okay? So this whole philosophy, which I'm really warning people, you know, if you've been caught up in this whole law of attraction that all you have to do is think about it hard enough and it will manifest and all you have to do is wish for it and want it. And if you look at it and see that the things that you are focused on are material things, then you have been caught into a trap of somebody else's making. You're buying into a philosophy that's selling somebody's books and courses for the end game of their own satisfaction. Okay? Because when we think of what we could be putting our attraction to, would that be not on wants but on values? Those of us who follow spiritual traditions, when I pray, I'm asking for courage, discipline, strength, faith. When I'm asking the universe itself, show me how to go forward. Help me understand what's important here. Show me what's for the higher good of myself and my family. Show me what's for the higher good of our church or our center. Please reveal to me what is for the higher good here. I'm not saying I need a new car. A nice little BMW Audi, I don't know, whatever, Corvette, whatever it is that turns your car on. But that's part of the problem is it's fed into materialism and narcissism. Mm-hmm. This kind of narcissistic spirituality, which isn't spirituality, it's really just spiritualized, new age narcissism, I think, probably the best way to describe it. So he picks out on a whole bunch of things. I've boiled down two that I think are the most important to focus on. That in this kind of law of attraction, this philosophy or belief system about what attraction in the universe is based on, If you look deeply, you'll see it's based on wants, materialism, and narcissistic needs that has no compassion. As a matter of fact, in the books, in The Secret, it says, if you see people who are overweight, don't observe them. If you think or talk about diseases, you will become sick. This is how serious this is. What you think or surround yourself with, good or bad, is what you will bring upon yourself. Avoid helping or health professions. Avoid professions in which you deal with poor people. Where actual research shows us that charitable work, empathy, and volunteering are beneficial to the giver and receiver. Whereas this law of attraction philosophy is saying the opposite. You don't want to be contaminated by it. poverty or illness or people who are troubled, they'll contaminate you. You're on your path of complete prosperity and positivity and fulfillment, and these things will contaminate that. Is that what you're hearing? Because that's how I read it. Whereas every spiritual teacher I've had will teach the exact opposite, what Buddha said, what Jesus said. But in our spiritual tradition, what our prayers say and what our doctrine says, you know, Jesus didn't say avoid the sick. He said help them. He didn't say avoid the poor. He said feed them. Right? So all of us who have that level of understanding about true attraction, true attraction, is we will see that it is a force that is existing everywhere. And if we're going to try to select it down to one simple little thing, it's going to take us into a narcissistic bubble. Only me and what I want is important. And if I don't focus on me and what I want, then that will somehow get in the way of me and what I want. And the way, say, I might look at it, and perhaps you might, some of our listeners might look at it, would be the complete opposite, which is to say and to think and to believe. What is for the higher good? If I do what I believe is for the higher good in this moment, then I believe it will be for the higher good of all. If it's for the higher good for me to give, if it's for the higher good for me to receive, if it's for the higher good for me to let go. Does this make some sense over here? Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. When I look back at some of the richest lessons I've learned, they've come from some of the most tragic places, places that that particular quote would tell you to not be around or not think about. But some of the most fruitful ideas that I've had that I was able to changed my life with came from the depths of despair I think you can only learn some lessons in those areas and then you start it gets it gets it gets odd in that you realize that these times of despair these deep valleys are where the gold is you know I think it was joseph campbell who said where you find the gold is where you stumble yes yes exactly great teacher joe campbell thank you So yeah, seriously, seriously, you know, just they took the time to put it down, to pass it on so that we could learn from it. Yeah. You know, that's what, that's what all those great teachers did. Now, the second thing I pulled out, okay. From this excellent article was about mindless, mindless instead of mindful. Okay. Most of us probably mild mindfulness. Okay. So to invoke this law of attraction, you need to live continuously in an unreal future. I'm visualizing this prosperity. I'm visualizing the perfect partner, the perfect mate. I'm visualizing my prosperity. I'm visualizing my success. I'm visualizing that prize. And so it took the power of positive thinking and positive visualization, okay, to a place where it's now fully under the power of the dark side. Because it has stripped away humanity, heart, compassion, mindfulness. All of those things got tossed out the door. So as you anticipate how your life will be once you've achieved your goal and only visualize a successful outcome, this shows faith in the universe, according to them. Thinking about plans, actions, and challenges, with the discordant and negative. So skip the process and focus on the end result. Live without regard to the present, which is the absolute opposite of mindfulness, which is be in the moment, be presently available and attentive to what is here and what is now. And that it's not about the goal, it's about the journey. It's about how we get from A to B. Yes, we can all hold the goal, You know, I'm self-confessed academic. You know, every now and again I think, do I want to study anything else? I'm going to be seventy-five on my upcoming birthday and I will still think, yeah, I could do that. That would be really interesting, you know. So it's fine. It's wonderful to set a goal that you want to go back to school and complete a course or that you want to, you know, take a look in your back garden and say, you know what? I've always wanted to put a fountain and plant a tree and okay. And change how that is. So it's just an expensive grass anymore. It's got some life in there. So it's good to have a goal to look at work and say, you know what? I can see that as a team, we can work together. We would accomplish more. Okay. All of those are wonderful things, but you also have to live the moment by moment journey. between that and the goal. You can't eliminate everything else. So again, I'm going to give a shout out to Dr. Neil Harbor. And it was in psychology today and under a blog called the blame being the truth about the law of attraction. I didn't go from a bunch of other people. I think I gave a shout out to them as I came along them. And, and, If we think about it, how deep and unexplored our understanding is about attraction. And now, you know, bringing it around to the non-ordinary state of consciousness. What do we have to say about that? Okay, those of us who work in non-ordinary states of consciousness. And so this can be in a one-on-one situation. Perhaps there's a therapist who works in body work. And because, you know, in a massage, you're working with somebody who's in it. non-ordinary state of consciousness, right? Brought them to a lax state. So whether you're a hypnotist, a Reiki master, whatever it is that you're doing, a past life regression therapist, working with holotropic breath work, working with psychedelic therapy, whatever it is that you're doing, you're working in a non-ordinary state of consciousness. You're the anesthesiologist with somebody who's having surgery. You're working with somebody who's in a non-ordinary state of consciousness. And they'll How do we be aware of what happens with attraction? What do you do with attraction when it comes up? And how do you understand that attraction when it comes up? See, that's where I started. And then, as I said, I went down a rabbit hole of attraction thinking, we better define attraction so we don't confuse the listeners. And then what happens when you're attracted? You can be attracted intellectually, physically, emotionally spiritually something within you can be deeply attracted to something about someone or that your client can be deeply attracted to something about you that is conscious or unconscious what do you do with that I don't know that there's like we've spent a while just trying to define what the law of attraction is in our regular waking state of consciousness. You did touch upon it earlier about how certain senses are dominant in the waking sense of consciousness. So I'm not even sure people are thoroughly aware of why they're attracted to people in waking consciousness. So how are they going to be aware to someone that is in an altered state of conscious? I think setting is definitely plays a role in it. I think that, um, you know, all of these ideas, maybe resonance, a non-ordinary states of conscience. I would imagine that resonance and, you know, setting and all the, all of these ritual, you know, having clear boundaries on some level, they, they're, they're a non-ordinary states of conscience, but it's, it's a difficult subject. Look at what happened with maps and Lycos. I mean, I don't think we thoroughly know how to do it. Yes. Okay. And I think that's because of the lack of education. a lack of education, and people fall into unconsciousness. We talked about how much of attraction is unconscious. Almost none of it is conscious. Almost none. And so I think the first thing that has to happen is we have to assume, as we can with the law of physics, that every level of attraction is always possible anywhere, anytime. even in the place where we may least expect it. Even if we think we're prepared for it, we need to understand that attraction can happen, that we can walk into a session, let's say, with a new client or it's a group thing or something, and there will be a something, some kind of an attraction. And then it's the ethics and the maturity, the experience, of the person who's in the role of authority or power, who is responsible for managing that. So if those two pieces of incarnation are supplied to everyone working in the field, one, attraction is going to happen. It's going to happen. It may not happen the same way repulsion is going to happen. I'm going to tell you a funny story, okay? Yeah, please. So once attraction, once repulsion, okay? Private practice for forty years, okay? Thousands and thousands of people, never mind students for the years I taught, workshop participants, you know, because it's like fifty years I've been in my career. And so, you know, workshop participants, students, intellectuals, twenty-eight years in the Santo Domingo Congregation, There's plenty of opportunity for attraction and repulsion. You always have to be aware of it. Now, again, I am indebted forever to my good teachers. And I'm also indebted forever to whatever gave me the particular character that I have in this lifetime that gives me, one, a sense of humor, and two, an ability to and a curiosity somewhat like what you have a curiosity about life, you know, an openness to learning and openness to learning. Not everybody has those things. So I'm really grateful that I got them. You know, somebody else might have a better smile or be taller, prettier, smarter, and lots of things, but I'm really happy with what I got in this lifetime. So those two things. Okay. So I'm going to tell you two quick stories. So, Holding those things always as possibilities that attraction exists everywhere. Okay. And that the person in the position of authority is the person responsible to manage just two very simple pieces. That's it. That's all you need. Okay. So when attraction does happen, you go, Oh, okay. There's attraction. I'm the person responsible for managing it. Okay. Oh, there's repulsion. I'm the person who's responsible for managing it. Okay. So two different clients. So one day I get a phone call. I'm just, I don't know what to, it's just about to close down for lunch or something. And a very dear friend, a colleague calls me up and says, listen, you know, I have a dear friend. Would you please see him? He's about to go through a divorce and he's not quite sure how to tell the children. I know you're the perfect person. I said, you know what, my practice is full. I can't really take anybody on. Personal favor. I said, okay, I'll see him once. And I'll try and put him in the right direction. That's all I can promise is I'll do one session with him. And thank God I said that, okay? I say goodbye to that. He says, I'm going to let him know. Can he come at the end of your day today? I thought, God, I'm tired. But anyway, I said, sure. At the end of my day, I'm finished at this time. So I said goodbye to my last official client. And we walked him out through the waiting room. And I look at this man sitting on the couch in my waiting room. I take one look at him, and I think, I can never work with this man. The attraction between us was so strong. It was instant. Okay. So I say, hi, you must be when I say his name. And yes, I am. And he thanked me for seeing him. And so I issued him in. And then I sat there for an hour, an hour and a half. I forget thinking absolutely cannot work with this man. Okay. It's not even possible. It's not even, that's the first time that it happened to me. And I'd already been working decades. So, I said to him, no, I think that our mutual friend explained to you that my practice is very full and close, that I won't be able to take you on. I was happy to speak to you today. I hope it was helpful. I can give you a list of colleagues, but I won't be able to work with you. And I thought, okay, well, that's just going to nicely close the door, right? Okay. But I said, you know, I set it up and it's closed. He says, thank you so much for seeing me. Off he goes, okay. I think, okay, dodged a bullet. So, well, our mutual friend called me up a little while later and he says, what did you do to him? I said, I didn't do anything. Why? I just gave him some advice. He says, well, he keeps asking about you. And I said, yeah, but it's going through a divorce. I mean, you know, okay. Well, we ended up dating wonderfully for three years. I'm eternally grateful to that relationship. So here's where attraction, okay, and the person in the position of authority has the responsibility to as to what is the response and the outcome. So next example. Take a new client or a referral in on a new client. He goes through the process. I don't know. I meet him in the waiting room. He comes in. He sits down. He starts talking. Within three seconds, he can't work with this man. He was objectionable, mean, attacking my profession. attacking, just like came in guns blazing. So I stopped him and I said, excuse me, sir, I'm just curious why you made this appointment. You know, why did you make this appointment? And, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. Why did you make the appointment? Because obviously I don't think you're ready. He sat back and he looked at me and I said, and I don't think I'm the right person. I said, the people who I work with need to be ready and open to the suggestions that they're going to make, at least to consider them. If they don't feel right, then that's fine. They must say that those suggestions don't feel right for them or the level of support that they need to be willing to offer has to be open to be received. And I said, you know what? No charge for today. I stood up and I said, I wish you all the very best, but no, we will not be working together. open my door, goodbye, have a good day. Close my door. The person in the position, I could not possibly have worked with that man. It would have been abusive. He just wanted someone to come and yell and scream and dump on someone. He did not want to say, I'm feeling miserable and I need a place to dump. I could have done that. I can work with that, okay? I can work with you're not happy, you're miserable, you're angry, frightened, upset, and all of those other things. You can work with that. But you can't come in and sit down on my couch and start attacking me in my profession. You don't even know me. And it's not going to work. So those two things, you've asked, what is the key? Here's the two keys. Attraction exists everywhere all the time. I don't mean personal romantic attractions. Some people spend half their life looking for that, realizing that, you know, if it's going to happen, it will, and if it's not going to happen, it won't, and you can't just magically create it. You know? Yeah. But that's another myth in our society, you know, the romantic myth. That's a story for another day. So two things that everyone should remember are, repeat them, attraction exists everywhere yes everywhere all the time on all the level all the time everywhere on levels that we are not even conscious of and even if we try and tease them up into consciousness they're they're not really gonna tease up because these are things that operate on a biological level you know yeah They're operating on a genetic and biological level, the same way we can scan somebody and assess them as to being a good mate within seconds of meeting them. And it has to do with body height and weight and vibration, some vibration they're giving out, okay, and that's going to speak to our unconscious. This is, again, very much a philosophy in transpersonal psychology that there's certain vibrations that we each give out that either feel in harmony with or not in harmony with other people. The same way you can get into an elevator and you know, who's in a good mood and who's not in a good mood in a second. You don't have, no one has to say one word. Okay. Because everybody's doing out vibrations of their mood, you know? And, and so, Attraction is everywhere all the time, mostly unconscious, mostly operating beneath our ability to analyze or understand. And if we accept that, then we will be more aware of it. And then the second key piece is the person in the position of authority is the person who is responsible to manage the response to attraction or repulsion. That's all we needed in all of these psychedelic coaching schools. Start with those two things, which I haven't found anyone talking about anywhere. Yeah. When you put it in perspective like that, it seems that that should be the foundation for... for anything moving forward. It's maybe it speaks to the true power of how strong attraction is. Maybe some people are aware of it, but they don't thoroughly, they're not thoroughly prepared for the way in which they will be augmented by someone else's attraction. Yes. Yes, exactly. Let's take the maps case that the research all out. I happen to know the people. I met them and I know the people. And although I can't say I knew them well, they were on the West coast. I'm here, but I, it was Stan Grof who introduced me to them. Oh, by the way, you're both Canadians, blah, blah, blah. And you know, you both have some common interests. So it was at a conference that Stan Grof was at. He introduced me. They, we were introduced to each other. And, and so, opened a dialogue and stayed a little bit in contact and and you know through the years only had you know very good experiences and and it was tragic what happened and uh it has caused deep repercussions to them as individuals to the field in general and but this is what happens when attraction goes unconscious in this particular case knowing some of Perhaps, I didn't read all about it, what the woman who was, you know, in the research project that went sideways, okay? Obviously, it was a complicated situation. I don't know all the details, so I can't speak to it on that level. What I can speak to on a very human level is that when you have, And I've had this and many therapists and teachers have had this. Remember that wonderful Indiana Jones film? I think it was one of the first ones where he goes into the classroom and some girl has written on her eyelids, love you. Every teacher, professor, therapist, doctor knows they should hold it. It should be on their wall written up or needle pointed, okay, on their wall. Okay, that some of your patients are going to walk in the door and they're going to fall in love with you and they're going to try and seduce you. They want to be close to you because you're the, you hold some authority that they want. You hold some answer. They think, or they think you have some answer and that by somehow merging with you, they get this fulfillment of the longing that they have. You know, now this is basic in ethics in many, many ways. fields, but unfortunately it's not discussed in some. And so if a psychedelic therapist goes into their sessions understanding those two things, attraction is everywhere and it will happen, and the person in authority is the one responsible for the response and the outcome, okay, then this would not have happened. it was very clear my understanding from my exchange with him, okay, was again, I knew them somewhat personally and did a reach out when it happened. It was my understanding that he became completely unconsciously sucked into a situation that is, and this is something that happens where the, where by the client works very hard to seduce someone. Now, It is the responsibility of the person in authority to not let that happen. They need to stop. They need to say, hey, we're not going by the rules. We need to take a step back here. Even if they step out and replace themselves, that's a good solution. It can be difficult for a client or a patient, but if it's explained very sincerely... then, and very nicely, I don't think it's for our best interest for us to continue. Very famous, very famous person, now deceased, a psychologist here in Montreal, who actually had affairs with his client and then married one of his clients and insisted on remaining her therapist. Now, that is so far, far ethically from the right track is so far beyond the beyond the beyond that you have to just shake your head and say, how, how, how, how could anything like that happen? So again, these things are real. These things are real. They happen. I've had people walk in. I had, I'm a female, I happen to be, you know, I've had two husbands and I'm a kind of, I'm very much a monogamous, you know, individual and pretty kind of ordinary, you know, but I've had women clients come in, short skirts, no underwear. And I had to tell them, I'm sorry, you can't be me like that. And try to seduce me. Okay. It's not going to work. Okay. So you can handle it right up front very nicely. Okay. If we're going to work together, you're going to have to, this is not going to work on me, okay? And so there's lots of ways, and does that stuff ever really get talked about? And I know we've got to say goodbye for today, but it's a difficult situation that, you know, how to handle it so that there isn't always just a polarized victim and a polarized perpetrator, because on the same, nothing can change the you know, the principle that the person in the position of authority, whether you're a doctor with a patient, a teacher in the classroom, or the psychedelic facilitator with your client, nothing changes that dynamic. The person with the power has the responsibility. Nothing changes that. So how do we help them understand that attraction is everywhere all the time, that there will be people who will come in and there will be people who will consciously or unconsciously be needing and wanting the therapist, doctor, teacher to be something to them. And it's our responsibility to recognize that we're being drawn into something and recognize the warning signs of being drawn into something. Yeah. think our next conversation we're really going to be able to tie a lot of it together with the idea of attraction and power and how maybe power shifts from dominance and authority to awareness and inner strength in these different or non-ordinary states of consciousness and how that interplays together like that is it's really complex to think about relationships in that way and understanding these two things in themselves defining them and then understand how they work together I think can be very helpful not only in my own life but to people listening and and if attraction is everywhere so too is power right yes yes that's why when I said to you hey you know this but we really if we're talking about that we really have to talk about this power interaction because you can't talk about one thing without talking about the other and then before we opened And the show, I was saying, we may not even get out of attraction today because I really went down the rabbit hole. I hope that this is informative and educational. And I hope that, you know, looking forward to our next conversation, we will continue on this theme of attraction and see how it works with power and try and understand more deeply about how each of us as individuals can take responsibility with dignity. There's too little dignity around these days. I really miss dignity. Do you miss dignity? When we see dignity, it's like I want to stand up and applaud. Yeah, yeah. It's attractive, you know, and hopefully, hopefully dignity and grace becomes something that becomes more attractive. It cycles back into, well, this is what's attractive. You know, this is what is powerful in my life. I think we're on that. I think we're moving towards that in this conversation and understanding what attractiveness is, is there. Yes. Yes. And, and bringing out for the higher good, my higher good and the higher good of others, because we all, you know, and that's going to be part of the next conversation. We all have a lower self. So the same way we can find clubs that, you know, where we can play golf or talk about stamp collecting or butterflies or whatever it is that interests us, okay? There's also clubs where they get into some very dark stuff. Sure. There's clubs that are based on hate. Ku Klux Klan. Yeah. There's a club based on hate. Yeah. There's societies that are us against them. you know, associations that do their best to try and discredit other people based on some ideas they have in their own head about what is right for the world. Anyway, so many different directions we could take on this. It's always a joy to hang out with you, and I'll explain my little thing here, why I don't look, I have a sling on my arm this is what this is is my arms in a sling I had a little shoulder surgery a week ago and uh I'm not allowed to use so I'm putting the wrong shoulder so I'm not allowed to use my my arm for two weeks so always a pleasure and I'm I really enjoyed the conversation I think we're setting a really beautiful stage for our conversations to come and it's imperative that we talk about this and try to wrap our minds around it and get our arms around it so for everybody within the sound of my voice do yourself a favor go down to the show notes and check out the two books volume one and volume two by dr jessica they are They are like cartography for the mind. You can really figure out and get some visuals about how and why the behaviors you have may be finding their way into your actions. I can't recommend them high enough. She's got a brand new website. If you go down to the show notes, you'll be able to go there and reach out to her yourself. She's good for consulting. She is great to reach out to and has helped multiple people on my show already. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today. Dr. Jessica, hang on briefly afterwards, but to everyone within the sound of my voice, I hope you have a beautiful day. And that's all we got. Remember the law of attraction that you, it exists everywhere all the time on levels that we're not even conscious of. And if you're the person in power, you're the one responsible. Aloha.