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The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
SELENA REZVANI
Jen: [00:00:00] Trust has become one of the most critical currencies in today's workplace. But with constant workforce reductions, fear-based narratives around AI threatening jobs and the ongoing uncertainty we're all navigating, we've lost so much trust with our workforce that we seem to be at a tipping point. So how do leaders rebuild this trust?
How do we create unstoppable teams when everything feels so unstable? This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, and today I'm absolutely thrilled to be talking with someone I've admired for a long time. Selena Ani. She's a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, internationally recognized leadership speaker, and has been named by Forbes as the premier expert on standing up for yourself at work.
Her latest book, quick Leadership, build Trust, navigate Change, and Cultivate Unstoppable Teams could not be [00:01:00] more timely. Selena was previously on this podcast for her book, quick Confidence, and I'm so excited to have her back.
This episode of The Work Well Podcast is made possible because of our friends at Lyra Health. Lyra Health is a premier global workforce mental health solution trusted by leading companies like Starbucks, Morgan Stanley, Lululemon, and Zoom. Lyra provides personalized care to over 17 million people with fast access to evidence-based providers and tools that deliver proven results, including faster recovery and reduced health.
Care cost this season Lira and the Work Well Podcast are teaming up to bring you more insights on how to build a thriving work culture for today and the future. We'll be bringing you cutting edge data and research on workplace mental health and wellbeing, and we'll have some lira experts occasionally join us [00:02:00] to share their perspectives.
On workforce mental health and creating psychologically safe and effective work environments. Find out more@lirahealth.com slash work. Well, thank you to Lira for helping us elevate this season of the Work Well podcast. Lina, welcome back to the show.
Selena: Thank you so much for having me, Jen. This is so exciting to be back.
Jen: So last time we had you on the show, we talked about your book, quick Confidence, which was a Wall Street Journal bestseller. So as author to author, I need to say congratulations on that.
Selena: Thank you so much. You know the drive and the pains.
Jen: I, I absolutely do. And so this is kind of the next in the series and it's called Quick Leadership.
So what made you decide to write this second book? Kind of what's happening in our workplaces that made this book feel urgent for you? [00:03:00]
Selena: Yeah. Well, it was a few things coming together. One was after I wrote Quick Confidence. There were so many people who told me, you know, I'm feeling braver. But how do I lead others?
How can I either inspire that confidence in, you know, my team or inspire that followership and engagement? And I've been spending years coaching leaders behind doors doing one-to-one coaching. I thought it's time to put some really practical strategies in front of leaders, right? Because we don't have a lifetime to learn this and people are so time starved.
So I wanted to create a playbook that's just really actionable to be that kind of leader people wanna follow. And the other thing, Jen, that's personal about this particular book is. For me, I grew up raised by a workaholic [00:04:00] dad.
Jen: Mm.
Selena: Uh, kind of consumed on Sundays by work. You know, that hazy look in his eyes of like distraction sitting around the dinner table.
Like I felt like work never went away. Yeah. It was to the point where. My dad had a heart condition and at one point checked himself out of the hospital against medical orders to give a presentation.
Jen: Mm.
Selena: And I ultimately lost him young. He was, I was 13 when he died of a massive heart attack, and that just had a huge impact on me and the way I see.
Work. And so, so much of what I wanna do is not just coach managers to be more effective, but to help fewer people feel kind of crushed by overwork.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, um, this recognition [00:05:00] that, I don't know why, I mean, I, you know, I've been in the wellbeing space as you know, for a long time. But even for those of us in the wellbeing space for a long time, we.
It wasn't until, I think, the pandemic in many ways that we started to recognize the impact that work has on our health and wellbeing, right? It was all of the things we focused on, all of the things that we did outside of work, right? But then we were like, oh wait, you know, there's this big thing called work where we spend most of our time, and it has a huge impact on our wellbeing.
It sounds. Ridiculous to say that out loud, but that's the journey that a lot of us went on. And unfortunately, like your father, I think there were so many people and so many of us that grew up in those circumstances, perhaps where we saw our parents do this and we were like, there's gotta be a better way.
Selena: Yeah, you're [00:06:00] so right. And you know, on that same line of thinking, I don't know if you saw this study, but I was so taken back by it. Um, UKG did some research and found that the majority of employees actually say that their manager influences their mental health on par with a spouse. But more than their doctor or therapist.
Jen: I know. Yes. Right? Yes. Which is huge. Right? So yeah, it's shocking
Selena: and yet it resonates that
Jen: it resonates and it makes it even more urgent that we need to train leaders differently because the old ways of, of leading are, are no longer cutting it. So I wanna. Touch on the subtitle of your book. Um, build Trust, navigate Change, and Cultivate Unstoppable Teams.
[00:07:00] I love unstoppable teams. Mm-hmm. But let's start with trust, because right now trust feels so broken in so many organizations. Worldwide. The data is showing that only 20 to 30% of employees actually trust their leaders. So tell me, let's talk about trust. What's causing this crisis of trust?
Selena: Yeah. Well, I think one thing is over promising.
Jen: Hmm.
Selena: That's a really important aspect of trust building that you can build up, you can do what you said you would do, but if you over promise to people, if you say you're gonna enjoy this benefit, if you get the project over the line and you don't follow up, I mean. You are toast when it comes to trust and it can often be the simple things.
Um, you know, you said someone would get [00:08:00] awarded on this date or you know, you promised us we'd get an answer by. I've even seen this situation where. It's a, a simple thing. Like I told you, I'd get back to you on some like routine, mundane, um, piece of work, but it's incredible how that can make you seem, um, untrustworthy in people's eyes when you break those little promises.
So from that wonderful book, the Four Agreements
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: Be impeccable with your word.
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: Even with the little things.
Jen: I love this and I, you know, in your book you talk about so many of the little things, which are actually big things. Quite frankly, they often seem insignificant, perhaps in the grand scheme of things and in the grand.
Problems that are happening in our world and potentially [00:09:00] in our workplaces. But to your point, if our manager has a bigger impact on our mental health than our doctor or our therapist, it's almost like this kind of death by a thousand cuts. It's like all these little moments of not keeping your word, of not doing what you said you would do of, and again, I don't know that.
And I know you talk about this and so I'd love your reaction is these aren't ill intended people. You know, no one is like, no leader is going, oh, I'm gonna break someone's trust today. Like, we don't come into work thinking that, right? But we get over, we ourselves as leaders are overworked and overwhelmed and we.
Often, I know I'm guilty of it. Underestimate how important it is for me to follow up with that person. 'cause I said that I would do that today and so I will personalize it and say that I am guilty of that. I think many leaders are [00:10:00] guilty of that and we don't do it intentionally, but I think we also don't recognize kind of the significance of it on the other end and the person the way that it's impacting a person.
So I'd love you to just respond to that.
Selena: Yeah, I think all of us have probably had that unflattering moment where we've done it at least once. I know I have too. And I think part of it comes from a little bit how we define leadership and some of the pressures we put on that. I know I grew up with the image of like, a leader means never let them see you sweat.
You know, you need to be like unflappable. Yeah, almost superhuman in a way, and and boy has my thinking evolved on that and changed that actually people don't want this stoic pillar of a leader, like they want a human. They want a human. And so I think [00:11:00] part of it is releasing yourself, you know, of the old definition that may be constricting you, making you feel like, uh, maybe you need to put some distance between you and everyone or that you can't be kind of honest with people.
But that's certainly helped me and I think once you do that, you kind of update your definition of leadership. Share some of that humanity. Mm-hmm. Like a time your thinking evolved on something and changed. Maybe you changed your mind or, you know, you're the kind of leader who kind of invites descent.
You know, I know I just shared the new direction with you all. Feel free to push back on what you heard. You know, I, I need all of your. Perspectives. It's definitely things like calling out when you made a mistake yourself. That's trust building. You know, you're not just showing the flattering angles. And I think there's one [00:12:00] more, maybe Jen, you've experienced this.
I know I have, but I think one of the worst trust killers is this perception that. My manager is spineless.
Jen: Hmm.
Selena: Like unwilling to shield the team. And, uh, I share a kind of colorful term for this in my book. Um, a metaphor called The Shit Umbrella.
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: Really That it's this powerful. Protector of the team when chaos hits, when distractions hit, when maybe unrealistic pressure from above comes down.
So I think that's a huge trust builder is knowing, hey, our manager advocated for us. Even if we didn't get the outcome, they went to that for us.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I think we, we have. Unfortunately, probably all experienced that [00:13:00] bad, bad. I, I was gonna say bad leadership behavior, but it's not even leadership behavior.
So just bad behavior, um, from a leader. But, so I guess, you know, 'cause we're talking about quick leadership, so. In terms of, I think protecting my team, shielding my team. Like what are the steps that I can take and how do I let my team know that that is something that I care about? But, but I think also to your point, it doesn't always work, right?
Like it doesn't mean that I can shield you from everything. And so how do I walk that line as a leader?
Selena: Well, I think there's a few things you can do. I think you, yourself, as the, the manager or leader can get a little more comfortable, really vetting opportunities or asks [00:14:00] of your team. You know, so something comes in from a, you know, next, next door department.
We really need you all to come put out this fire with us. It's time sensitive. Um. You know, if you have pleaser tendencies, it's gonna be really easy in that moment to, okay, let me organize the troops and kind of get everyone in ready to help, but taking a little more time to vet those requests.
Jen: Hmm.
Selena: Okay.
Tell me about the deadline. And is there a real deadline beyond that one? Because often there is, right? There's this faux urgency in, in a lot of workplace cultures where, you know, I think a lot of us think everything you know, is an emergency or is due yesterday. And I think when that becomes so normalized, even managers may not see that they're contributing to it.
[00:15:00] You know that they're not challenging it.
Jen: Yeah, for sure. And you write about urgency culture in your book. So let's, 'cause that resonated with me, um, so much. And I mean, even down to the point where like. The marking of email messages as urgent has always been something that is, um, a pet peeve of mine, because if you're sending me an email and marking it as urgent mm-hmm.
Pick up the phone and call me.
Selena: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's, it's true. It's like a rare flag that you're allowed to throw up, and I think you're right. If somebody really needs you.
Jen: Yeah,
Selena: probably better to just,
Jen: well, because the, the signal is if I'm sending, if things that I'm sending you through email is suddenly urgent, then I always need to be connected to my email in case you send me something urgent as opposed to.
Oh wait. If it's really truly urgent, then you know, Jen or [00:16:00] Selena or whoever my leader is, will pick up the phone and call me. And so let's talk about this urgency culture. Explain what it is. I, you know, I think we've talked about how it's, you know, eroding trust, but how do we. How do we push back against it?
Because you're right, I feel like most organizations have this urgency culture or we, when we get something from our leader, we don't know whether it's urgent or not. And so what is the, what are the steps we can take? What's the language we can use to determine if something's actually urgent or not?
Selena: Yeah.
Well, I think one thing is I like to even visualize this so that I can slow down time, because what doesn't help us when someone drops an emergency or urgency in our lap is to get quickly caught up in that. And not have like any objectivity and it's easy to get caught up in the pace of the request and the, [00:17:00] the fury and the frenzy of what's happening, but to kind of picture it like a baton.
You know, we know anxiety can be passed from person to person like that. Mm-hmm. It can be contagious when we see it around us. And so I think creating a little even compassionate detachment, you know, from the frenzy to keep a little bit of your objectivity and to be aware. All right. Is this a baton I want to actively grab hold of and, Hmm.
Then sprint with, you know, is that something I'm willing to do? So I think one of them is the calling it out in your culture. It's really hard to change urgency, culture if you're like a lone hero. In your organization, you know, noticing it and you know, trying to change the pace. So I think calling it out, talking about some of the [00:18:00] norms on your team openly, or the kind of taken for granted philosophies of how work gets done.
I think that's a really important thing. I think, as I mentioned earlier, like prioritizing ruthlessly. If you're working in a place where you know the pace is frenzied, urgencies are popping up, you have to be that blocker and tackler for yourself. Nobody is going to do that for you. You're very lucky if you have a manager who's doing this, um, some of this shielding.
But I think it's just as important for managers to kind of teach their employees. You are allowed to say no. To provide some air cover at times, I'm asking you to go deep on focus time on this project. So if people come to you with requests from above sideways any direction, uh, please send them [00:19:00] to me.
Hmm. Being willing to provide that air cover, I think helps with urgency culture. I think recognizing when your team. Has pushed and extended themselves is important because I think when you do that, you're reminding everybody that this is not the norm and it probably shouldn't be the norm. You know, you, you all really pushed it last week getting this deliverable done by Friday, and I recognize that.
I see that you did that and I'd like to, um. You know, acknowledge it by giving you something best of all time back.
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: You know, I'd like you all to not work on Monday, or let's take half days if we need to for this week, but just, just that action of this is not the norm. We don't [00:20:00] normalize it here. I appreciate what you did.
And how can I make you whole?
Jen: Yeah. Is, is it possible? Have you seen managers take these actions and kind of create this culture and psychological safety on their team inside of a. Larger organization that perhaps isn't there yet. Like is that possible? 'cause I'm thinking about the managers that are thinking, I would love to be able to do this for my team, or I try to do this for my team, but there's so many things that are outside of my control.
Selena: Yeah, it's hard to go against the current, isn't it? Yeah. If your culture in a large organization says certain unwritten rules, you know, apply. 'cause often these are not things that are in your manual.
Jen: Right?
Selena: And your onboarding training, it's something [00:21:00] you pick up over time. Oh, when people take paid time off here, they stay connected.
Jen: Yeah,
Selena: isn't that interesting? They don't unplug all the way, you know, it's, people think nothing of texting them and asking them, um, you know, to help out on something while they're gone. People pick up on that and then they start modeling it. So, um, you know, yes, I, it is possible and I have seen leaders do it, and I think the tricky thing is.
They stand out and they are often not seen as the most productive. They're seen as inspirational to people underneath them, but they will not necessarily be seen as the one who broaden in the top revenue this year. And we need more of those inspirational leaders who people see themselves in. You know [00:22:00] who, yeah.
By their own actions and their own role modeling give you a permission slip to live fully. To unplug from work. I had one manager like this in my career and I appreciated her so much. She was one of the most talented people on our teams. And she left loudly. Yeah. You know, she said, I'm out of here at this time.
She happened to have young kids. She didn't try to hide that. She, she didn't massage it. Um. She was very clear about her boundaries, and she was awesome while she was at the job and, and through her actions again, it gave me a little permission slip. Others, oh, maybe I can do that too and make my time here.
Count when I am here.
Jen: Yeah, I know that the perception is, is that, you know, managers and leaders that do those things perhaps aren't as. Productive. [00:23:00] It's truly a perception. It it, mm-hmm. It, it has never proved out to be true in any of the data. Actually, most of the data shows that leaders that lead with humanity and wellbeing and boundaries actually have teams that are.
Higher performers and more productive, not less. And so, you know, it's, I, I, I don't even know why we still have to, um, fight this fight, but here we are.
Selena: Well, you, you're so right to say that. And it may be counterintuitive. Yeah. You know, some people and maybe counterculture. You know, depending where you work, but I think one of the things that keeps that alive, that that perception that more hours must mean better worker are like the hero stories we tell.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. At organizations, you know, and again, these aren't in the manual necessarily, that [00:24:00] we get early on. But they're told and, and we see who's held up on a pedestal Yeah. Who's a rockstar within the organization. And they're often these people who've flown in on a Friday night to the satellite office and pulled a weekender to do the impossible or, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Jen: Or in your father's case, checked himself out of the hospital. Yeah. To give a presentation. Yeah.
Selena: Exactly. Like if that's not dedication, then what is? Yeah. And I think one of the things that can help is if we look at some of those hero stories, what do we glorify around here?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Selena: And what if it is, you know, the leader with a, a well-lived, rounded life?
Jen: Yeah,
Selena: how about that?
Jen: Yeah, I, I'm all in on that. Count me in. So I wanna kind of go to like capital T trust, right? Because I like, let's talk about the elephant in [00:25:00] the room in the workplace right now when it comes to leadership and trust and leading during uncertainty. Almost every day the news cycle includes.
Layoffs, it includes a fear-based narrative around ai. And AI is going to, you know, take everyone's job and make them irrelevant. And so, first of all, like how do you lead, um, you know, in a time like this? And second of all, how do you, I guess more importantly, like how do you address. The anxiety, the understood anxiety of the workforce without making empty promises.
'cause you can't tell people that. Everything's gonna be okay if people are scared. And even though you tell them to speak up, they're like, well, I'm just gonna keep my head down because otherwise I'm next. Um mm-hmm. You know? [00:26:00] So I feel like we're in many ways kind of asking the impossible of some of these leaders that don't have control over some of these larger organizational decisions.
And so, what do I do? To be an authentic leader during the times that we're living in.
Selena: Yeah, there's so much change, and like you said, it might be the external headlines that we're reading and getting, you know, pinged about on our phones, and most certainly it can be inside our organization. You know, oh, we leadership changed the direction.
We have a new strategy. We're merging these two departments. Right? It can feel never ending. I don't often hear compassion and manager in the same sentence, but I think if we expect managers to extend compassion to others. We need to be better at [00:27:00] training managers to also have some self-compassion, especially during change, and to understand some of the very human reactions to change, like change feels personal even when it's a work corporate change.
It feels personal to people because we, humans like mastery. We like knowing what's going on and knowing how things are done. And of course, change like threatens all of that. So having a little compassion with yourself and others that this is personal. It makes sense that this is shaking me up, my team up.
I think communicate, communicate, communicate. Mm. You know. What a great time to work on your transparency as a leader. You know that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and I really believe that. Be [00:28:00] transparent about the change. It's okay to be human, to say things like, I know how rattled this change has all of you.
You know, it's been rattling to me too.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Selena: Like admit the truth and being real with people, I think goes a long way to extend trust. During times like that about the communication. I have seen some organizations really botch that, Jen. Like,
Jen: yep.
Selena: You know, come out with a memo. I can think of one situation in particular.
Um, A CEO put out a memo and then said like, at the end, after the change, anyone with concerns, questions, please come to me and a young. Millennial at the time came and did that, had some questions and was like quickly rebuked and shuffled right out of the room by assistance. Like you don't do that. You don't go up to a person of that stature and [00:29:00] just communicate and engage with them.
And I think people have such good baloney meters. And are watching very closely how you communicate during the change. So I think better that it be imperfect but real. Mm-hmm. Honest, transparent, then some glossy calms approved, you know, memo.
Jen: Right. Well, and I think also if you say if you have any questions or concerns.
Come to me. You, you better damn mean that, right? Yeah,
Selena: that's right. It's kind
of,
Jen: otherwise don't say it
Selena: right. It goes back to be impeccable with your word.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
Selena: That those, those little promises actually mean a lot.
Jen: Yeah, for sure. So there's a couple things. You write about ditching, and I love this too, you write about ditching the boss [00:30:00] image and and embracing the leader persona.
And I think you generally have been talking about what that is during our entire conversation. But explain to me. What the difference is and why this ma, I mean, we know this matters more now than ever because what you just said, people have a BS meter. Um, but, but I, but I love how you just, you know, how you differentiate those two.
Um, and, you know, this idea of, of the leader persona really resonated with me.
Selena: Yeah, I think a lot of people who hold onto the boss persona feel they need to hold the power. Mm. And that they're somehow irrelevant or not seen as doing enough if they don't assert and affirm their power. And what I'm recommending with [00:31:00] embracing the leader persona is that you give away.
That power and kind of watch your team do magic as a result. So it's, it's giving more ownership to your team. It's avoiding that urge to micromanage. Um, and of course that's growing confidence in your team as they go. And so I think we can do this in a few ways. Uh, one of the tips I love to share, and someone just told me recently this helped them, is building some of that autonomy with your employees by.
Not rushing to rescue and solve the problem immediately, but rather thinking, how can I help them grow through this? And so an example of that would be if someone came to you and said, the client is unhappy, what should I do? Now you may, through your experience, your [00:32:00] years of expertise, be able to quickly answer that.
But instead, you could share the power a little bit, and the technique I call this is ask three before you answer. So get their perspective first. Well, tell me what you've tried. Well, what. Solution are you leaning towards? What does your gut tell you is the next right step? It doesn't mean that you're necessarily gonna go with and you know, finalize the answer to any one of those, but you're getting your teammate to think critically.
You're boosting their sense of autonomy and ownership. Over fixing that problem. So that's a, a little way to ditch the, I'm the all-knowing boss. I have all the answers and to be like a resourcer instead.
Jen: So how do I, like, is there something that I can do? [00:33:00] Because I, I'm a fixer. Like somebody brings me a problem and I wanna jump in and I wanna fix it alongside them, but I wanna fix it.
So is there something that. I can do, like in that moment where I just automatically wanna jump in and be like, okay, let's do this and let's do this and let's do this to stop myself and take them on that journey that you just, you just walked me through because I love that and I don't know that there's a, a leader or a boss.
Perhaps doesn't wanna do that, or at least I would love to do that. But I can just see, like in that moment when somebody brings me a problem, I'm like, oh yeah, let's do this and let's, you know, like I wanna, I wanna fix it for them and make it go away. And so is there, is there something I can do in that moment other than.
Take a deep breath, you know, that like is just a, is is a different, you know, it's a different training for me. Right. Because [00:34:00] to your point earlier, this is not how we were trained to be leaders,
Selena: right?
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: And here's the beautiful thing I think. I think we want to be useful, right in that moment we quickly give the answer.
Here you go. But this is just a different kind of usefulness, and I think it is one that's helping them in the long term to think critically, to build their skills, to boost their confidence, um, in a way that our immediate answer can't help them. And, and so that's one way I think of it is it feels good to be useful, but this is being useful in a longer term way and frankly in a ripple effect way.
Yeah. 'cause we want them to create a cascade and build up leaders around them. One thing I've seen people do is, uh, require themselves to count to five. Yeah. Um, before they [00:35:00] speak and solve. And I, I've even seen people do that who have a tendency to think out loud in meetings and they wanna be like a little more sparing.
And I've seen one other thing, which is. This may apply a little bit more to meetings, but some leaders will give themselves a set number of chips that they use to like symbolize how many times they jump in.
Jen: Interesting. I love that actually. Those are, those are, those are great little strategies. So I think a lot of leaders, number one, are feeling exhausted themselves, but are also just feeling.
Like resigned by the, you know, like, I, what am I supposed to do if my team is already checked out? Like, where do I even start? Like what do I do? Um, if I'm that leader that's like, I wanna do something, but like, you know, the, the world feels against me.
Selena: Mm. That's a, it's a hard feeling [00:36:00] to feel, and I think if you have, say, an employee who's disengaged and.
You know, it's kind of hard to reach them. I think one mental shift is not thinking that they have no spark, you know that they have no utility or kind of reason to be here, but more making the shift that they've lost that spark and seeing it as a temporary thing. I think when you view it that way, you're a lot more motivated to reconnect with that employee.
To help figure out where the disconnect might be happening. So I think a lot of it comes from these two, like, wonderful skills of empathy and curiosity, uh, approaching that person with understanding, uh, instead of coming with the, the least generous interpretation. I don't know what's [00:37:00] going on with Tom.
Um, I'm gonna talk to 'em and see if I can reconnect and, and see what's going on. Um, but to raise it honestly, you know, I, I see that lately sharing your observations. You don't contribute like you used to. In meetings, I noticed you used to volunteer to do certain things or take on certain tasks, and I'm, I'm not seeing that anymore.
Can you tell me when did you start feeling that way? And this is trust building because the person. Feels cared about, right? But you're giving them a chance, right? You're not just like tagging them with a performance review rating and that's it, right? You're taking the time and asking them what would kind of light your spark?
Can you think of what would light your spark a little more? And I find with these people, if you can answer that question [00:38:00] and create even a small win. Opportunity. Like maybe they say, I wanna brush up on X skill. That would, you know, be a positive To me that would be engaging maybe to pursue a credential or just get more training on something, giving that person a chance to.
Have a win, even if it's lower hanging fruit can kind of reengage them and bring them back into the fold.
Jen: Yeah. This, this has come up quite a bit this season of when people on your team seem checked out. It's usually not because they wanna be, you know, that they're intentionally trying to check out or they're intentionally a low performer, but that there is.
There is something going on. It could be personal, it could have to do with the workplace. Either way, it doesn't matter, right? The, the, it, it's for, for a leader [00:39:00] to, to see you and to reach out to you and to let you know that. You matter is actually sometimes all that's needed. Right?
Selena: Right. And that I haven't like marked you with permanent marker.
Jen: Totally right.
Selena: And stamped you as this a rotten apple or whatever it may be. But that it's a powerful thing to ask someone earnestly and genuinely, how can I support you?
Jen: Yeah. So last thing, let's talk about unstoppable teams because. It feels like a, a big aspiration right now. So tell me what makes a team unstoppable even in uncertain times?
'cause we're in uncertain times and I think we're always gonna be uncertain time, uncertain times, uh, for at least the foreseeable imaginable future.
Selena: Yeah. You know, I think certainly [00:40:00] making sure that your. Group is inclusive. You know that people feel like they have a voice and you know, are seen and heard on your team.
So one of the things that makes teams unstoppable is they really value diverse perspectives and see them as like integral to coming up with the best solution. So making sure that you are hearing multiple voices and takes even if you have to work at that as a leader. Again, I just, you know, this example of, I just shared the direction.
I really need your pushback, your ideas to make this work. So the inclusion aspect. I think one of the other aspects is, and we hear this all the time about making sure you're. You know, team is psychologically safe, but this is [00:41:00] huge to being unstoppable. And what I mean is just simply that you can engage in little everyday risks and feel safe and comfortable doing that.
Maybe it's like hazarding a guess. You know, this is my guess about what's going on with our competitor. Or a prediction you might have. It may be. Uh, I have an issue with how we're approaching x. I disagree. These are signs of an unstoppable team because right, it's clear that they can elevate an issue in the name of the best solution.
They're not worried about uhoh. I have to manage the manager's ego.
Jen: Yeah. Or simply saying, I don't understand. Can you explain further? Or can you help me understand? Right. Most of the time when people don't feel psychologically safe, they go along with something that they don't understand. [00:42:00]
Selena: Yeah, that's a really good point.
And it can be tough at a place where, you know, things move quickly intellectually. Yeah. There's an expectation that you pick things up immediately. Yeah. And some fear of how you'll be viewed if you ask to slow down, or can you explain it again? Yeah. I think normalizing curiosity. Like this is a no dumb questions environment.
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: Like, you know, just to your point, you will not be, um, punished. Your questions are expected. They're not tolerated. That that makes a difference. Um,
Jen: that's a mic drop line. Your questions are expected, not tolerated. I love that.
Selena: Yeah. I think some of the best leaders are savvy about the quiet. You know, like we've all been in a meeting where there was quiet, not 'cause people were thinking like deeply, but because they were [00:43:00] hesitating.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Selena: And I think being the kind of leader who can call out that, that moment and say something, not blaming, but just acknowledgement, you know what, that idea got fast really. Or that idea got quiet really fast. Yeah. Let's talk. You know, or either like, that was the best idea ever or we're all being too polite to poke holes in it.
Like, which is it? Team.
Jen: Yeah. And I love, I love using a little bit of humor, right? Like that. I think that kind of breaks the seal a little bit on what people might, you know, like, oh, do I say something? Do not say something.
Selena: I think so. And I, I think just, again, modeling your own vulnerability. You know that you don't need to be that bulletproof.
You know, I've never made a mistake type of leader, but sharing your mistakes in the name of learning.
Jen: Yeah.
Selena: There's so many good ones. There's so many categories. When we've under [00:44:00] communicated, when we failed to ask for help, when we assume no news was good news. We've all done these things and. I guarantee you are gonna, you know, set your team up, um, to be open, to be honest, to help each other more when you're transparent about those things.
Jen: Yeah, but you know, many of the things that, that we have talked about today are very much aligned with, you know, how you build organizational hope too. So very much aligned with my book that is coming out and, and a few short months. And so I love that we are all putting out, uh, work into the world to help people be better leaders and to be better colleagues.
So, Selena, I have one final question for you. Sure. What gives you hope about the future of leadership and workplace wellbeing? [00:45:00]
Selena: I think one of the things that gives me hope is seeing vulnerable human leadership. Modeled by people around me, and I would be so remiss if I didn't use you, Jen, as like such a shining example of that I.
You know, worked with you, um, and have looked up to you for so long and just appreciate how human and real you are, and you've always stood out, um, for that, just in addition to your intellect and all the things you've contributed. And I, I don't think we can, you know, understate, uh, or overstate rather just, um.
How much, that example, um, and, and can make a difference in someone's life, especially if you're going against a mold [00:46:00] and you're willing to kind of stand out as a different type of human leader. Um. I think that gives me tremendous hope and, and you certainly have given me hope and I can't wait to read your book, by the way.
Jen: Well, thank you. And thank you for saying that. I promised to my listeners did, I did not pay her to say that. It was completely, it was completely genuine and, and I'm immensely grateful. Selena, I loved this conversation. I knew I would, uh, thank you for being back on the show.
Selena: Thank you so much. It was awesome.
Jen: I am so grateful Selena could be with us today to help us understand how to rebuild, trust and lead with humanity during these incredibly challenging times. Her insights on navigating change, building psychological safety, and creating unstoppable teams give us hope and practical tools for the road ahead.
Thank you to our [00:47:00] producer and our listeners. You can find the Work Well podcast by visiting various podcasters. Using the key word work, well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share, reach out to me on LinkedIn.
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