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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan
from startups.com.
Joined as always by my
friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.
Will Schroeder.
Well, let me timestamp this.
We are in the, the early
days of April, 2025.
There's quite a bit of fear
in the world right now.
There's a lot of fear
about a lot of things, but
probably most importantly,
we're watching the markets
go absolutely haywire based
on this extreme uncertainty
around around tariffs.
And so fear is something that's
being talked about a lot.
There's a lot of people
experiencing fear who maybe
were quite comfortable
even a few weeks ago.
So that's where we're at.
Right.
And, but I think as you
know, as founders, you
and I have, have kind of
lived in a, in a fear-based
environment for our careers.
And so like how unusual is
this for, for founders and,
and how, how, how strange is
this feeling of, of having
fear becoming a motivator?
For us
it was like, this is
another Tuesday, right.
That's like, you know,
the markets are going
crazy tr and I get it.
It's their job to
go crazy, right?
And I was like, the world is
getting to live in a level of
fear, uncertainty and doubt.
That it's just another
Tuesday for founders.
Right?
It's our, our normal, yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm still unfazed
by it now, like I'm
not excited about it.
Right.
I look at that
going, here we go.
And also, you know, I'm sure you
have the same thing, Ryan, like
empathetically, you know that it
affects a lot of other people,
so you can appreciate the fact
that it's, it's bad, right.
But from a. Fear standpoint,
I'm like, bring it on.
This is like almost like
a trained boxer getting
in a, a fight at a bar.
Like this is what
we're trained to do.
Um, this
amateur stuff, guys like this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Here's the thing, Ryan, I, I
don't think we talk about the,
the fear of being a founder, you
know, of, of, of this process
in quite the right context.
I think we talk about it
mostly in terms of the,
the emotional impact, which
is, which is devastating.
Yeah.
Right.
I don't think we talk
about it or build upon it.
I. Where it's
actually a huge asset.
Absolutely can be.
And, and I, I think, you know,
whenever I look at like big,
big steps in my life, and
I, you know, my wife and I,
we sit down, we've moved a
bunch of times, so whenever
we make that move, you know,
we, we've gone to, to Santa
Monica, to San Francisco, to
Beverly Hills, you know, all
these other places, right.
And every time we make
the move, it's always
expensive and, and whatever.
And I'm like, I gotta
be honest, like.
This doesn't scare me at all.
Yeah.
And my, my wife's who's
very conservative is
like, this terrifies me.
Yeah.
And I always say the same thing.
I'm like, if it doesn't terrify
us, we're doing it wrong.
Yeah.
It's exactly.
I don't think a lot of
people think like that.
What activity that's
entirely comfortable has
ever created growth for
anything, whether it's
physical, mental, emotional.
Right.
You don't, you don't grow
through things like that.
Look, I, I, I, I get
that, you know, the,
the rallying cry, right?
Like, you know.
Yes, fear.
If fear can be a powerful
motivator, fear, uh,
can be an asset for us.
I think there's still a
line and, and we have to
figure out as founders how
not to cross it, where we
move into full paralysis.
Right.
And I think that's, honestly,
that's, that's point,
part of the fear muscle.
Just like flexing it
over and over again.
Like, I'm scared I'm
gonna keep moving.
I'm scared I'm
gonna keep moving.
And you just get
better
at it.
I don't think that you and I
are any less acceptable to fear.
We've just lived in it long
enough and understand that these
things come and go in cycles
and that we can stick around.
And honestly, like the,
the inaction is a thing
that will actually.
Take you out, right?
Yeah.
Whatever the risky move
you're thinking about.
Yep.
It's probably truly less
risky than, than not doing.
Yeah.
And I think, like Ryan,
when you look back on your
highlight reel of life, okay.
Yeah.
My guess is 'cause I'm,
I'm, uh, projecting here
'cause it's certainly mine.
My guess is your highlight
reel is, is highly
punctuated by Yeah.
All of the things that
you were fearful of doing.
Yeah.
Yet you did anyway
move to Asia, decide
not to do MBA, right
out right outta school.
Right,
right, right.
There
were a lot of people who
were looking at me going,
you're absolutely insane.
What are you doing?
Right.
Yep.
Start second business versus,
uh, go take high paying
job at Proctor Gamble.
Yep.
All of these other little
things, they were all these
moments in time where I go
back and, you know, if you go
back a year prior to whatever
the highlight real moment is.
It was decisions like this.
Yeah.
And it was choosing risk
over, it was choosing fear
and uncertainty over taking
a more stable path that
led to the highlights.
Otherwise, I, I don't
know that those wouldn't
have led to highlights.
They certainly would've led to
different types of highlights,
mostly ones that I'm not all
that excited about, having
watched some of my friends go
down those exact same paths.
They're like, here's
my highlight reel.
I got a certificate for
being at the company for 25
years.
I can't take my preferences and
project them onto other people.
I just know what
my preferences are.
They seem to be happy
about that stuff.
And, and maybe, right, but on
the other hand, when I bring
my wife into the equation,
'cause again, my wife is
super conservative and she
married a guy that is as, as
not conservative as possible.
Yep.
And when we talk about it, and
she's, she's such a, a cool wife
in that she's very cognizant
that in order to take big steps,
I have to lead those steps.
Like, but what's really cool
about my wife is that she's
always down to go along.
Right?
Sure.
She, she never says no, like
whatever crazy stuff we decide
to do, she's always on board,
but she'll never initiate
it because she, she doesn't
have that muscle that you
described of understanding
how to take fear and do
something positive with it.
This is a huge, uh, speaking
of, of marriage and wives, this
was a huge thing, uh, with,
with Vargas and I in the early
days before we figured out there
was like some really specific.
Cultural differences that were
leading to us seeing things in
completely different ways, which
at first was, was challenging.
It was difficult there
like, yeah, I, you know,
the, everything's possible.
No risk is too great.
We can do anything
that we set out to do.
We'll figure it out.
Right.
My wife growing up in a very
different culture where like
I. Streaming was not only not
encouraged, it was discouraged.
Right?
Yeah.
You weren't supposed to try to
aim session, you were, you know,
there were very specific paths.
You were think become
a doctor or an engineer
and those were the two
things you were gonna do.
Yep.
And here's how you
accomplish that.
And anything that deviated from
those paths was bad and scary.
And we realized that
there was just this, this
undercurrent for both of us.
My undercurrent ever
present is optimism.
Yeah.
Her undercurrent ever
present is pessimism.
Doesn't mean that we can't both
dream or both get excited about
stuff, but they're always going
to be flavored by that thing.
And once we realized that
it was actually fantastic.
I know you and Sarah do
the same thing, right?
But there's a
counterbalance there, right?
Like there's the like,
ah, we can go do this.
And then there's that little
voice represented by my
wife saying, okay, but have
you thought about this?
Have you thought about that?
Have you thought about this?
And she's not saying no,
but she's saying, Hey,
let's, let's think about it.
And it actually is, which
is a reasonable thing to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's the, the little angel
sitting on my shoulder
making sure that like,
I'm, I'm considering.
The downsides 'cause it's
easy to get caught up
just in the upsides too.
You know, we talk with
this as founders, we
have to believe in that.
But that can be dangerous too.
Being pure optimism, uh, can,
can lead to some, some bad
falls
too.
I, I think when we coach,
uh, founders and we advise
founders, part of what
we're trying to teach them
is that fear is a feature.
Not a flaw.
Not a flaw.
Yep.
Right.
And, and I think for a
lot of people, that is
totally antithetical to what
we've been brought up on.
Like fear is what
you should run from.
Yeah.
Right.
Avoid it at all costs.
Avoid it
at all costs.
Right.
Find ways to be brave
and to not be afraid.
Right.
No beef, it's
okay.
Yeah.
It's, but the other side of
it, it's a bit of a leading
indicator for me, right.
Like, I know when I get
that, that that tingle, that
feeling that I'm leaning into
something and I'm like, okay,
this is probably a bad idea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
However, however, if it works.
This'll be awesome.
Yeah.
Right.
And, and that's the thing,
man, like, I wanna go back
to, to, you know, a shared
experience you and I had, uh,
when we bought z.com Oh yeah.
Uh, years ago.
We've told this story a little
bit in the past, but like, what
a lot of folks don't know is we
bought a company doing a million
dollars a month of revenue with
450 employees, sight unseen at
five in the morning and owned
it at nine in the morning.
I mean, it was.
It was this cowboy as it gets,
I remember I was laying in
bed and, uh, you know, we, we
had, we'd been in negotiations
with, with the owners for
hours all throughout the
night, throughout the morning.
So this was like a, a
last minute, crazy ordeal.
I, I'm, I'm laying in bed, it's
like five in the morning, and,
and I, I'd just gone to bed
because I thought like the, the
deal was over and I turned to
Sarah, who's sleeping of course,
and I'm like, are you cool if
I make a really bad decision?
And she was like, go for it.
Right.
And you know, that's when,
that's when we reached out
and, and we, uh, and we ended
up buying the company and
four hours later we owned.
A company with 450 employees
and thousands of clients and
millions of revenue, also,
million, millions of expenses.
And we were like,
I was terrifying.
Yeah.
I mean, 'cause we, we, we
bought it under, I mean, the
business was under significant
stress at that point.
There were a lot of things that
could go wrong and it had a
very specific set of criteria
to make things go right.
And so we just focused on that.
You know, I was just thinking
like, when was the last
time we said no because
something was too risky?
We've said no because
they didn't represent
the right opportunity.
But I cannot think of the
last time that we were
like, should we do this?
That's too much of a risk.
Should we do this?
Mm. It it's not enough focus.
Should we do this?
Not enough opportunity.
Should we do this?
Yep.
Or shouldnt want to.
Not enough time.
Not enough reason.
Yeah.
I cannot think of the
last time we were like,
should we try that?
No, that's too risky.
Yeah.
Like, uh, for years everyone
logically asked us like, why
don't you guys have a fund?
Yeah.
It's not that it's too risky.
It is risky, but it's
exactly the kind of risk
that we know, right?
Yeah.
The kind of risk that we
live in and understand very
well, we shouldn't enjoy it.
It's just, it's a
divergence from what we
do and what we mm-hmm.
Think is our best attempt
at helping startup founders.
It's not so thing
that we wanna build.
Yeah.
And, and so when I think about,
again, that spidey sense that
says, Hey, I'm leaning into
fear, I think because, um, you
and I have done it for so long.
Right.
And we have the benefit
with age of having seen what
it's like on the other side.
Yeah.
To see that you can do it.
Like Ryan, when you think
about uh, seeing this lens
through your children now who
haven't had the reps 'cause
they're just getting started.
Yeah.
You can see how differently
they process that because
fear is very legit for them.
Yeah, it is.
And it.
It's funny too 'cause like the
types of fear that exists are,
are very different as well.
Right.
There's is a more of an
existential type fear.
Right.
And it, it's interesting 'cause
they're at that phase where they
also kind of think that they're
invincible in a lot of ways.
Yeah.
Right.
And I remember like, there
were times too where it's
good feeling and that's,
that is of course part of
the, the, the risk calculus.
Yep.
Is what, is what happens if
I'm right, if this is too
big of a risk and it costs
me whatever it can cost me.
Yep.
The maximum cost,
what's that look like?
Like what does it actually do?
Yep.
And I think as the, when I
was, you know, significantly
younger, in the early
twenties, my tolerance
there was, was way higher.
Right.
I, I felt like I had less
to lose because I did, and
I also felt like I have more
time to recover because I did.
Yep.
Right.
As you age, I think it's,
it's interesting because, you
know, I'm, I'm definitely.
Definitely things that I
would probably add to the
equation now that wouldn't
have been there before.
Like, oh, well if we lose
this, this matters a lot,
or this could change the
opportunity for my kids.
It could do a lot of things,
but on the other hand, I'm so
much more comfortable with the
idea of risk and my ability
to calculate the risk that,
again, I don't know that
it's caused me necessarily to
say no to anything that came
along simply because it was.
Too risky.
Interesting.
I'm gonna have to think
about this a bit now.
I wish I had thought about
this a bit, bit more, more
before the episode, uh, to
go back and think like, how
much of this is just risk
blindness versus, uh, comfort
and, and actual calculation,
or am I just so used to this
point that I don't even, I.
Don't even think of
saying no because
Yeah.
But, but again, you've been on
the other side of it, you've
seen the victory, so you know
that it's, it's worth the risk.
Now, a lot of folks that
are becoming entrepreneurs,
they're not there yet.
Right.
They're like, oh, I have to
quit my job, or I have to, you
know, bet my, my life savings.
Yeah.
And they're like, and
all they can think of
is all the downside.
And that's, that's logical.
There's nothing wrong
with, with that processing.
However, the thing that that
does create a challenge is you
get to a point where you're
so worried about the downside
that you never see side, right?
Yep.
You, you, you get the
sense that playing it
safe is the right bet.
And the problem with
playing it safe is
you never win.
Yeah.
If you don't put any chips
on the table, they think,
I have to empty my 401k,
I have to quit my job.
I have to do all these things.
There's also this impression,
I think this is where the risk
calculation goes wrong for a
lot of early stage founders.
They play the game as
if there's only one way
to bet and it's all in.
Yep.
Right.
It's just not the case.
I like, that's the other
thing that you get really
good at over time is figuring
out how much of this risk
is, can be, can be entered
into sequentially, right?
I don't need to look
at this as well.
I have to build this, you
know, billion dollar business,
ergo I have to throw in
everything I have and all my
time and all my money and all
my resources have to go to
this in order to make work.
It is not the, the reality.
So I, I think that's a
really important piece
is that this isn't an.
All in type situation.
In most cases, you have the
ability to sequentially and
incrementally increase your
risk or decrease your risk.
And I think that's something
that we have become much better
at as we've gone through this,
is really understanding what
are the actual risks and how can
I, how can I eliminate or defer
some of that risk until later?
And I think that's an
important piece of it.
But so back to the,
back to the core point
here, which is that, um.
Fear is, is is something that
we should lean into and that
comfort is, is not necessarily
a good thing and that it does
take some risk to get reward.
I think we all have that, uh, in
in mind, at
least at a basic
it does.
But, but again, I think that
like we're associating as
founders, we're associating
fear as a weakness of
some sort or the opposite.
Something that we
should run from.
Yeah.
If what I'm saying, you
know, what we're saying in
this discussion is what if
you just leaned into it?
Yep.
What if you were to say,
look, fear is my job.
Sure.
Right.
That's literally in my job
description to be the person
that does really scary shit.
That is my job.
Okay.
And I wanna be really
good at that job.
I wanna be the the person
that's willing to run into
the abyss when no one else is
willing to run into the abyss.
Right?
Yeah.
I wanna build that muscle.
Well, you gotta do
some hard stuff, right?
Yeah.
You gotta do some stuff
where you don't know
what's on the other side.
You know, one of my favorite
thing, do you remember a show?
I think it was, um,
it was called Maximum
Extreme Challenge.
Uh, for some folks listening,
that's like their favorite
show, whatever, I don't, I can't
remember if it was, it was from
Japan or whatever, but they had.
They, they had the greatest,
they had the greatest stunt
where these, these players would
run through an obstacle course.
Okay?
And there would
always be this one.
They had to run at full speed.
There was always be this
one thing that I thought
was a perfect analogy
for founders, there would
be three doors, okay?
And like one of the doors
is made out of paper and the
other two doors are wooden.
But you can't tell
the difference when
you run into 'em.
It was like a Tom and
Jerry cartoon, right?
Yeah.
And so these, these, these,
uh, these contestants would
run and they'd either burst
through that door or they'd
get flattened out, right
Thought, bounce off it.
I thought what a perfect
right metaphor for being
a founder.
Yeah.
The difference is the founder
will then get up after having
bounced off one of the doors and
run full speed into another one.
And until one of through.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Did they, they also did this
on, uh, a American gladiator.
Not that that's
important at this point.
Yeah, but they remember
there was like the, and, but
instead of being a wooden
door behind, one of the
doors of the gates would be.
Turbo or Nitro or one of
the guys waiting to, I
love Turbo Nitro deaf.
You.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm shocked that, that that
show isn't still around anyway,
point being, uh, this idea that
I wanna get good at running
through the doors knowing Yep.
Knowing that I'm gonna bounce
off a whole bunch of time.
I, I'm, I'm gonna hit the wooden
door way more often than I'm
gonna hit the, the paper door.
Okay.
Yeah.
But I wanna build a muscle.
That allows me to bounce back.
That allows me to get knocked
down and keep coming back.
There are very few people that
are willing to acknowledge
wanting that specific muscle.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
But I think when you start
to explain it to founders,
and you and I advise founders
all the time about this,
when you start to explain to
them, look, the fear, you're
feel feeling is the business.
We are in the business of fear.
That's not an anomaly.
That's when, that's
not, when you're, oh my
God, I can't believe I'm
doing everything wrong.
I must have fear.
I've been at this for 30 years.
I'm terrified every day.
Right?
Yeah.
Like that is
the business.
I it it is the business.
I think it's such an important
realization because I
think until you have that
realization, the, the constant
thought is, couldn't this
fear just be an indicator
that this is a bad idea,
that this is a bad business?
Because that's usually
what fear is for.
That's what it's for.
It's to stop us from doing
something right, or, or make
us take, take notice or to,
to be able, or in some cases
truly to, to motivate us.
Right?
Yeah.
That fear and, and adrenaline
are directly linked.
Yeah.
There's a reason we get scared.
We dump adrenaline, so we can
do amazing shit to get ourselves
out of whatever we're scared of.
But I think it's really
important that you can
change the relationship
with fear so that you're
not always looking at it.
Yes, of course.
Of course.
Some fears are warranted,
and you might have
a bad business idea.
This isn't to say that if
you're scared, you're absolutely
doing the right thing.
It doesn't mean you're right,
be doing the wrong thing.
But the thing is very
important here is that
just because you're scared.
Does not mean it is not a
direct indicator that it's
a bad business, right?
I see so many
founders doing this.
It's like, I'm just really
worried that this is a bad idea.
Well, you can keep doing that
and, and you will stay in that
same state or you can embrace
the fear, lean into it a bit
and go find out, go validate
whatever it is you think is,
is causing this fear that,
that, that whatever it is, that
the factor that's driving the
fear for you and eliminate it.
Or validate it.
You know something that's
really funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.
So if.
Any of this sounds familiar.
Stop guessing about what to do.
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.
I gotta say my, my
greatest fear is comfort.
I mean, is, is, is
antithetical as that is to say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At which point I
feel comfortable.
I get this tingling that says
you're doing something wrong.
Yeah.
Like something ain't right.
Now, I'm sure there's some baked
in psychology that would take
me years of therapy to unpack
that, and I'm okay with it.
Right.
I'm okay with it.
What I'm saying is
comfort terrifies me.
Yeah.
Because.
I look at comfort as when I
stop doing interesting things
and that, that bothers me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think it's, complacency
is extremely dangerous in
any, any aspect of life.
But I think as a startup
founder, it's, it's extremely,
extremely dangerous.
The funny thing about that
is that can actually increase
your, your real risk, not
your perceived risk, but
the, the actual risk, like,
like being complacent, trying
to be comfortable within
the business can absolutely
increase the, the actual risk,
uh, which is funny because.
Fear often comes down is you
get comfortable and you're
like, okay, well we can just
kind of take this easy path.
We can, we can, you
know, do something that's
a little less risky.
Oftentimes you're, you're
setting yourself up, you know,
is, you know who loves, uh,
you know, who loves caution
and comfort mediocrity, right?
Like I did.
I don't know.
I know a single legacy
that was built without some
level of leap of faith.
All
of them, a hundred
percent of them.
Right.
And and I think what gets
interesting is when people
say, I want the big prize,
but I don't want the
fear that comes with it.
No shit.
Right?
Yeah.
Right.
I want a six pack, but, but I
wanna be a lead Cheetos all day.
Right.
It funny, it doesn't
work that way.
And I, I think what ends up
happening is, again, because
we, we spend so much time
avoiding fear, what we're
really avoiding is progress.
Yeah.
And I think that is a
dangerous path When I think
about, you know, this concept
of, of complacency, right?
I think about there are
all these things I could
do and some number of
them won't work, right?
Just the nature of it.
But if I don't try,
I get none of it.
And, and I think to myself,
the more I've ever tried
at something, the bigger
the swing that I've took.
Yeah, the bigger the outcome.
Here's a different
way to say it.
I've never had a great outcome
where I did a it half an effort.
Right.
Just ever or or half a risk
where I, I said, well, I,
I'll only bet a little of,
you know, whatever this,
you know, mental bet is.
Yeah.
And, and that will pay off.
It's, that's happened to me.
Never, never.
And maybe I'm the most
unlucky guy in the world,
but I don't, I don't think
it's limited to that.
I think so I'll take that a step
further actually, and say that
when I have done things where
I did take like a half step,
I didn't get half the value or
half the outcome, I got nothing.
Right.
So it, it's, it's, it's,
it's subtle, but like,
there, that was there, right.
And so it was like the,
the big outcomes have
come from the big swings.
The big joys in life have
come from the, the, the big
risks, uh, the big decisions in
cases where we tried to hedge
and tried to play it safe,
tried to take the half step,
didn't get anything right.
And so I agreed.
You have to be
very careful there.
And it doesn't necessarily
mean, again, this is not me
advocating for the, it's all,
all in, on every single bet.
No, but I think picking
the right bets is really
important and making sure
that they're big enough.
There's an outcome worth chasing
because I think that's the other
thing that ends up happening.
Even if you take that safe
path and you do start to
feel comfortable, and it
may no longer be that fear
is motivating you all of a
sudden you start to realize
like, well, that thing I'm
aiming for is less risky.
It's also a lot
less interesting.
Right.
The dent I'm gonna make
in the universe based on
this isn't that impactful.
It's not gonna change
people's lives.
It's not gonna change minds.
It's gonna change
somebody else's.
Why am I getting up in the
morning to do this anymore?
Right?
So I think that's the other
thing that we, we talked
about this a few, uh, months
ago on the podcast, but
going back to your why.
And I think if the
why is not big enough.
You're gonna stop
doing it at some point.
Agreed.
You're just gonna stop caring.
Agreed.
And, and that why the size
of the why and the size
of the risk tend to be
pretty directly correlated.
Right.
And I
look at the fear as a fuel,
and I'm addicted to that fuel.
I'm addicted to the, to the
big stakes, big outcome kind
of equation because what I've
found in my life, wherever
I've had moments where.
Fear wasn't driving everything,
but it was more, you know,
the equivalent of greed.
You know, if you use
the opposite of fear
and greed, right?
Where it was more I'd like
to have something versus I
have to get something done.
I have few, if any wins
whatsoever that are optional
where it was like, that would
be a lot of upside for me.
Right.
It it was, it was more, oh
shit, if I don't get this
done, X, Y, Z will happen.
Now, hopefully that
leads to upside.
Yeah,
right, right.
Wasn't the motivator
at the time.
Yeah.
Wasn't what was driving you.
It wasn't like, oh, if I do
this, maybe I'll get that.
It's, if I don't do this,
I'm gonna get something.
I really
don't.
That's what I'm saying.
Like, I, my greed
motivator is a two.
My fear motivator is a 12.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like if we like a, a dial.
Right.
And I, I wanna believe
that a lot of people are
kind of in that same boat.
Whereby they don't get the
maximum of their output
in a situation where
they're not forced to.
Right now, I wanna
zoom out for a second.
We're not advocating.
Putting yourself in constant
fear all the time in being
stressed out, like your blood
pressure and your health and
like, you gotta chill out too.
Like, like, like we have high
intensity fear and like for
Ryan and I, we dial it back
and go do something else.
Right?
Like it's, it's, this isn't
a Gary V moment where we're
like, you know, hustle porn
where it's like you have
to be in fear all the time.
That would be psychotic.
Yeah.
What we're saying is
there are moments.
Where it's time.
Yeah.
Like it's,
it's big fear
time, and that's okay.
You should look for those
moments.
Yeah.
And you should look for
those moments and, and
again, embrace them because
there, there are lots of
different types of fear too.
Right.
I like, let's, let's talk about
another one, which is that
there's some bad types of fear.
Something like, you know, the
one that, that actually works
in the opposite way of fuel.
For me, I see founders who
are using fear, the fear of
the product launch, right?
The fear of public perception of
the, of the product or service.
Just ends up leading to, uh,
like this over perfectionism,
staying on the lab bench
paralysis instead of
getting out in the market.
Um, and just paralysis, right?
Just not letting
things move forward.
So I think it, it, it has
to be, I balance there
where it's like you can
feel it pushing you forward.
The minute it starts to push you
backwards, you gotta step back
and say like, am I, am I having
an appropriate relationship
with this fear right now?
Or am I letting this thing,
uh, get the better of me and
keep me from doing the things
that should be helping instead?
Yeah.
And I think, you know, within
that, when we're talking about
fear as a conditioned muscle,
I wanna build on that to say,
yeah, Ryan, you and I, and, and
some other founders, not most
of them, 'cause most of them
are relatively new to this,
but you and I have learned to
condition that fear muscle.
Like, like we get the
benefit of it, not just the
pain that comes from it.
Okay.
Yep.
And again, I'm not saying that
like, look, I'm up at three,
well, I guess I'm up at three
in the morning to wake up, but
like, I was gonna say, I'm up
at three in the morning staring
at the ceiling, but like I am,
I'm actually getting outta bed.
Um, but when I think about
like those moments where I'm,
you know, I'm, I'm scared, I'm
terrified, whatever, it's not
that it doesn't affect me, I'm
like, not right, like in human.
But at the same time,
I've done it enough times
where I'm starting to say.
Okay.
Like I can live in this
moment, I can live in
this, in this feeling.
'cause I've been
here a lot of times.
And even when it doesn't work
out and I think you were getting
at this, even when it doesn't
work out, I'll figure it out.
Like, uh, to your point,
the loss is never everything
in our mind It is.
Right.
'cause it's so convenient
to take it there.
Yeah.
But in reality it rarely
ever turns out that way.
Yeah.
That's something I wish more
founders did was just to like
really get comfortable, like.
Get acquainted with the risk.
I think sometimes, like we
just, we, we did an entire
episode on this, right?
We run like the, the, the
paper dragons, but like
just document or say it
out loud to somebody else.
Yep.
Sometimes it completely
takes the sting out of it
and you're like, oh, okay.
Well that thing that I was
really scared of actually isn't
that scary and or the likelihood
of it becoming all that.
Is relatively right.
The, the idea that I do drain
the entire 401k or i, I do
alienate my entire network
or whatever the, the, the
big thing that you're, you're
scared of is, is rarely ends
up coming to, to fruition in
that, in that full strength way.
It's almost always some
diluted version of that,
just like our successes,
you know, uh, Ryan, if you
were a couple months ago,
I was speaking, um, at an
entrepreneurship conference.
It was one of these situations.
So, so the setup kinda matters.
I get a, uh, an email
from my booking agent.
I've got a speaking booking
agent, which is ironic because
the, the, the, the punchline
here is I am terrified of
public speaking, right?
Yeah.
So why the fuck would you
have a booking agent to book
you to public speak, right?
If you don't push yourself
into your f, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Anyway, so I'm, I'm, I'm doing
the speech when I go out to
questions for the audience,
it's a whole room of, uh,
founders and entrepreneurs,
and I go to questions.
One of the, um, one of the
people in the audience,
they're like, you're an
incredible storyteller.
Like, you're, you're
like the best public
speaker I've ever seen.
And I, and, and, and
it, it cracked me up.
Me, no, no, this isn't me saying
like, like, uh, let me humble
brag about what they said.
It was my response.
I said, it's important
for you to know that I am
absolutely terrified right now.
Yeah.
Right.
Like public speaking,
like most people is, is
one of my greatest fears.
Yeah.
I happen to be good at
it, but I'm terrified of
doing it, and that's never
changed no matter how many
times I've ever done it.
You're, you're not gonna
seek it out on your own.
It's not something
you're just Right.
Like, just go do more someone
in Paul to book me to, to
send me somewhere to do it.
I would never volunteer.
Right.
Yeah.
But here's the interesting
thing when I do it.
It always pays huge dividends.
Yes.
I mean, tons of people, you
know, they send me a check at
the end, like, like it's, it's
a great, phenomenal experience.
Yeah.
But if you were to call me right
now and said, Hey, will, uh, can
you be available for my event?
I would absolutely turn it down.
'cause I'm terrified of, so
what I'm saying though is I,
I, I've created the conditions
for me to lean into that fear.
But me not doing it if I just
said, Hey, you know, I, I don't
enjoy, I'm just not gonna do it.
Would have given up
so many opportunities.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Part of the reason I don't
like doing it, it sounds odd.
I hate preparing for it.
Like you, you, you never
truly give it the, the,
the time that it's due.
But it usually takes me days
to prepare and that seems
like a huge waste of time.
But my point is, I think
about it in terms of this
is something that's probably
one of my number one fears,
and yet I lean into it.
Yeah.
I lean into it because I
know it's important for
me to condition that fear.
And again, stand
comfortable doesn't,
doesn't change anything.
I think it's, it's nice like.
Things like public speaking in
particular to our audience is
great because we get real-time
feedback on it, you know?
Yeah.
We do podcasts and then
days, months, weeks later,
we're getting feedback
on what we talked about.
But it's, it's so nice
to be able to have that,
that immediacy of the
feedback and the fear.
When you go into it and you
look at that, the risk reward,
what is the actual risk there?
Spending an hour terrified on a
stage, it doesn't feel good, but
nothing's actually
gonna happen to you.
I'm only terrified for
the first five minutes.
Like, like after that my heart
rate comes down, um, from
like 160 down to whatever it
normally is, down to one 50.
And, and it's like, and
then I'm smooth sailing.
But leading up to
that, it's horrible.
The other side of it though
is, you know, I think
about it in terms of.
Founders, especially those
that are new, a lot of folks
listening to this, to this
podcast are like, I'm scared
about what I'm doing, and,
and when they say that, they
act as if no one else is.
Yeah.
Like I'm
just the person that's scared.
I'm the one that's scared
of public speaking.
I'm the one that's scared
of pitching my product.
Right.
I'm the one that's scared of
making product level decisions.
I'm the one that's scared
of investing money.
A hundred percent of
people are terrified.
Everybody is.
Yep.
There's no other
version of this job.
Right.
I know exactly how
to do this job.
I've been doing it forever and
I'm still scared every day.
Right.
That's just an the natural
reaction to what we do.
It's not an anomaly.
So I want some of the
folks listening, Ryan,
to be like, oh, like.
Those guys are scared too.
Yeah.
We're not just saying
that to, like, to prove a
point where we're saying
that because it's true.
It's how it is.
You know, in my mind, if I'm
not somewhat uncomfortable,
there's a problem.
Right.
And, and, and I, when we're
we're writing this out, I wrote
that, uh, comfort is a, is the
currency of a life half lived.
Yeah.
Comfort is the
currency of a life.
Half lived.
And what I meant by that was
for folks that haven't gone all
the way, haven't done amazing
things, what I picture kind of
my wife's alternate universe
would've been if she didn't,
uh, marry this crazy guy, it
would've been very comfortable.
Yeah.
But her entire highlight
reel has always has to do
with something where like
she got pushed out of her
comfort zone a little bit.
Yep.
And, and did something crazy.
And, and while she would
never do that on her own,
she does have the instinct
and I'll give her credit to
know when to, to lean into
that and just say, Hey, you
know, I'll figure it out.
I don't think a lot of people
going into this business,
Ryan, understand how important
leaning into that fear is.
They understand the fear,
like, holy shit, I'm scared.
Yeah, for sure.
But they don't understand how
important it is to have fear
as part of your program, as
part of your DNA, as a founder,
and as part of your strategy,
if you go in and you say,
I'm gonna start something,
I'm gonna quit my job.
I'm gonna, you know,
risk my savings, whatever
in my strategy, is
gonna lean into fear.
You have the opportunity
to, to do big things.
If you don't, if you change
your mind and you say, I
wanna seek comfort, you can
never truly expect to build
something great because the.
Biggest, greatest things
that you've ever done?
Everything in your life.
Everything in anybody, anybody's
life that's ever been done
by someone great involved.
A ridiculous amount of fear.
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors
helping them win in the
startups.com community.
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com
to see if it's for you.
Could be just the
thing you need.
I hope to see you inside.