This is a podcast about the leading role of the arts in this age of converging crises. It features remarkable stories of individuals navigating the climate crisis and leading transformative creative projects in music, performing arts, galleries, film, and independent organisations across the world. As demands and solutions evolve, what kind of leadership is needed? Who does that involve? And what is leadership in the creative sector context anyway?
Over six episodes, Emmanuella Blake Morsi hosts a diverse array of alumni from the Creative Climate Leadership programme (CCL) – artists, activists, academics, and professionals from various disciplines, exploring crucial topics like climate justice, effective communication, emerging technology, policy, and artistic practices. Produced by Hum Studio Interactive and Julie's Bicycle. Cover art by Emmanuella Blake Morsi
{Emmanuella}
- Hi and welcome to the Creative Climate Leadership podcast. This is a podcast about the radical leading role of the arts in this age of converging crises. I'm your host, Emmanuella aka Emma Blake Morsi and in this series, we speak to those doing remarkable work behind the curtains and on stage, generating systemic change in the creative sector and beyond. For this episode, we’ll be deep-diving into the world of relationships and resilience as part of Creative Climate Leadership. We'll be hearing from Yula Rocha, Brazilian journalist and communications manager at People's Palace Projects, who also did the Julie's Bicycle CCL UK with me, and Jessica Sim, the creative climate leader who participated in the CCL programme in 2017.
But before we get into it, let's find out more about those we're in the room with.
{Yula}
- Hello, Emma. Hello, everybody who's listening to us. Yes, my name is Yula Rocha. I'm a Brazilian journalist and I manage communications for People's Palace Projects, that is a research centre for social and climate justice. At PPP, as we call it, we work with artists from the Xingu Indigenous territory in Brazil and favelas of Rio de Janeiro.
Recently, I produced an Echoes Indigenous Film Festival at the ICA (Institute of Contemporary Arts) with three brilliant Indigenous filmmakers and also an arts installation at Venice Architecture Biennale. And I have chaired a few climate and arts events at Chatham House and also for Chevening scholars here in the UK. I keep freelancing as a journalist as well for a few Brazilian networks.
{Jess}
- Hi, I'm Jess or Jessica Sim. And yes, such a privilege to be here. I participated in the Creative Climate Leadership Programme in 2017. And most of my work has taken place in Istanbul and it's at the intersection of community, art and sustainability. And there I founded a series of projects. The first, which was the Museum of Garbage, which I curated together with the Flying Roots team, which was an exhibition, an immersive exhibition that brought waste items from the streets of Istanbul into the gallery and aimed to provoke a new appreciation and visibility of domestic waste and also question the role of the consumer in its production.
I went on to then manage the space and eventually along with Ahu Toksöz in 2018, we founded an organisation called Nadas Istanbul, which still is in Istanbul and running today. And it's an organisation and a physical space that's dedicated to connecting people with their environment through creative programming.
My background is in the arts and I'm fascinated and constantly thinking about how can art be a language to engage people more with themselves, one another and the environment that they're around. I was in Istanbul for eight years. And in 2022, I moved to Devon to both immerse myself more in nature - I've been a WWOOF-er, or an organic farmer, for the past year, a volunteer, and also did a programme that was about nature education leadership. So I'm also starting to delve into what's happening here in Devon in the UK.
{Emmanuella}
- I honestly cannot wait to delve into all of this with both of you. To open it up, I would love to almost ask both of you, what does global climate resilience mean to you?
{Yula}
- Well, I guess, you know, it's hard for me to detach myself from my journalism background because that was my career, you know, for two decades. Sounds like really old, but anyway! But bringing, the facts into the conversation of climate, not to bring all the data, the scientific data and etc, that we've discussed so much at CCL, but getting to the minds and hearts of people through the arts and through the work that we do with Indigenous artists. I think that is an act of resilience without even people realising that we're talking about climate, about climate justice, because it's in there, it's embedded in the projects and in the life that they represent. So I guess...
{Emmanuella}
- I think it's great and I think it's that personal connection is what's so valuable is understanding actually, when it's so ingrained to way of life, I think what that resilience looks like can take on a variety of forms. And I think it's beautiful to be able to honour, especially with the communities that you work with and when you consider audience and also consider participators, I think it's interesting to also look at how the arts can almost kind of provide a vessel for this dialogue and this conversation to be meaningful. But also then, Jess, I guess, what does global climate resilience mean to you?
{Jess}
- Yeah, Yula, I love what you said as well. When I think of the word resilience, I immediately think of the word diversity. Like, to me, they are paired together immediately. And when I think of global climate resilience, I think of the local. I think of what we need to do on a local level to sustain ourselves, our communities, and that has a ripple effect outward. That's the way I've been able to work and sustain myself, is really looking from the local and then outward. Whilst still being aware of what's happening on a global level.
And I mean, sometimes I think I can think that everyone is thinking kind of in the creative way, because that's the world I'm a part of, you know, within the arts. And at the same time, I know it's not the language everywhere. And so, you know, I would really advocate for more integration of small and creative solutions for a global resilience.
{Emmanuella}
- I love that. This work, the level of emotional labour that can almost be carried into it. For some people, it can kind of feel like working in these spaces can be a calling more than a choice, you know, or can be a bit of both. And I wonder, what has it meant for you to do the work that you do and what almost led you to do the work that you do now? Especially interested in you Yula, you know, coming from a very journalist background and to find yourself where you are now. Yeah, what does it mean to you and what led you there?
{Yula}
- Well, I guess I got involved in the Indigenous projects at People's Palace Projects, because there are so many stories untold and they need to be told. And by telling their stories I mean just by sharing their knowledge. And I think I feel like that’s just as a channel to disseminate what they've been known for like centuries, you know, and what they can share, what we can learn from their knowledge, their ancient knowledge. So I guess now I'm into it. It's impossible to distance myself from the work that they do and the work that I admire a lot. {E
{Emmanuella}
- That's so real. And I think it's really important to understand, we've been looking at global climate resilience, who whose resilience are we building, you know? And actually, what does it mean to not only hear from people who are not just on the front lines, but yeah, when you hear statistics and you consider Indigenous people making up five to six percent of the population now, but actually are guardians of 80 percent of the world's biodiversity. It really puts into perspective that we need to not only engage people, but we also need to understand what solutions look like that are led by these people as well. And because Indigenous people, you know, communities that are so integral to any kind of climate solution. And so, yeah, incredibly poignant work. And actually, I guess that almost lends itself interestingly as well for some of the work that you do as well, Jess, because what does this work for you mean, especially being in Istanbul for such a long time, and then kind of what led to you there as well?
{Jess}
- I mean, I've rarely distinguished my life from my work. And if I can think back to, you know, being a very small young person, what was happening in my environment and kind of at a young age, it was a panic for what was happening to this planet. It was all I could think about and then engage with it at the same time. I did go off and study contemporary dance for a while. And part of my kind of steering back towards the environment was realising that like it's something that I had to be talking about in some form. And maybe it started off more sort of what I would define as hard activism. And it's gone what I would describe as softer in terms of integrating the arts and working on a more community, very much a listening and hearing, level.
Yeah, so I ended up in Istanbul. I followed my sister there after I finished studying. And again, it was my context like I ended up in this massive, ginormous city. And I had to find a way to express and talk about and engage with what I was seeing, which was a city that's all consuming and domestic waste was, I feel like not seen enough for what it is. And so that's what originally led to the Museum of Garbage.
And, you know, the project kind of just unrolled, or rolled, like a snowball from there. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's been so many conscious choices. Like it's just been what I feel like I've needed to talk about or engage with. And, you know, more recently coming to the UK, I've kind of gone full circle and thinking like I need more separation between my work and my other life. You know, what does it mean to be sort of employed in something that's not going to be consuming me from like morning till evening? And I think there's an importance in that because of mental health and having balance in my life. At the same time, like if I'm, you know, the things I work for, I really need them to have, you know, meaning to the things that I feel are urgent, which for me is how we're caring for the environment and also ourselves.
So yeah, it's for me, it's been what life is. And I feel like it needs to be because it's like this - otherwise, it's this blaring voice that I can't unhear. And so for me, part of dealing with that is in engaging and working in this field.
{Emmanuella}
- And actually, I feel like you've touched on something incredibly poignant, Jess, in that because of the reality of the kind of work we're doing, when you look at the value of relationships and resilience within this space, it's actually integral. Because resilience in doing this work really requires really understanding how can you make and sustain it in a way that actually the burnout doesn't adhere to or even limit the longevity of what you're actually able to invest in terms of output and also engagement. But equally, the relationships we have around us, communities we build around us, who are able to also kind of not just share resources, but also kind of alleviate some of that burden that can be incredibly heavy. And I think what you just shared is actually a real reality for a lot of people, maybe listening, who also have kind of experienced that same.
I don't know anyone who's worked within the climate space who has not experienced a level of either burnout or very real serious understanding of what it means to have climate anxiety and that kind of overwhelmingness of not feeling like you just have to keep doing in order to actually do something about it. But in the reality, what does that look like in terms of limitations? And I'll talk a little later about some of the people I've worked with and communities I've worked with who have been amazing at kind of building up climate resilience as part of community engagement to really ensure that the work is sustainable in the long term. But I actually want to ask, Jess, because of the work you've done in terms of building these opportunities, but also the networks you've done in Istanbul - often nurturing communities can be a significant part of building momentum and movements. And doing so authentically can actually influence action or disengagement. So why do you think community is an important part of resilience building? And how should purpose-driven organisations or changemakers invest in doing this authentically?
{Jess}
- Yeah, I mean, I think community is so integral to this work, and especially to work that I was doing and am doing. And the integrity part for me comes with taking time. It took a long time to build the community that we have. And a lot of that has to do with taking time to build relationships on an individual level. I think sometimes leadership can come with the idea of there being a leader and then all these people following. And it's not that, in my experience, it's not that. It's really this kind of network and web of connections of people building trust and empowering each other. So if I think back to sort of the beginning of Nadas Istanbul, the strength that led to us being able to do that was this initial partnership that I had with Ahu, and the trust that we had with each other. And then it was building from there, like building that same amount of trust with one other person and then three other people, and then until it becomes a larger community.
I think it's really difficult with the climate crisis to feel that we have time. And I also know that when I feel completely out of time and panicked, then I don't take the time to build the relationships and the community connections that are necessary for a stronger and more resilient movement. And so I think for other organisations, I guess my suggestion would be to really question where are you spending your time and where is panic blinding you to kind of take the shortcut? Because even though we need to act quickly, we also, you know, relationships and community take time to build, and especially the trust part. So, you know, I also think of sticking with, you know, what you might be doing.
I was in Istanbul for seven years and it could have been much longer. You know, it was amazing to see every year kind of how that community was growing and the strength of it. So, yeah, I think I guess the biggest thing I'm talking about is time and the pace and being able to be kind of really on the ground and human about it, which again is, you know, a level of slowness that I feel is really necessary.
{Emmanuella}
- And I love that question. I mean really asking you who, what does the shortage of time almost, what tensions does that build for you? And actually, what does that force you to do? And being able to even just have a conscious awareness of it is able to be a limiting factor in terms of being able to actually mitigate those impacts in the long run. And I guess even because you mentioned about the amazing Indigenous Film Festival that I had such a pleasure to join in, was it May? I mean, for that especially, what was the journey towards building a more progressive audience engagement and how have even just the audiences or the communities evolved during that process? Or the wider audiences, you know, across that film sector in that perspective also?
{Yula}
- I'll try to unpack your questions because I think the subject time is so sensitive when we work with Indigenous partners because their time is a bit different than our time. And we feel the pressure when we have, for example, funding applications or the pressure of funders to deliver a project that does not go on the timeframe of delivering a project in six months. So there is a behind the scenes or before delivering any projects, including the Indigenous Film Festival that you mentioned at the ICA that is nurturing this relationship and building a relationship of trust that takes an incredible amount of time. For them to trust us that we will be doing this not even on their behalf, but we are just facilitating a space for them to engage with an audience here.
And also when I think about community engagement, it's really interesting to bring again the example of the Indigenous Film Festival because when we talk about Indigenous artists, Indigenous filmmakers in the UK, for instance, it feels so distant from the reality of the audience here. But I guess just by watching their films, we close this gap, we close this distance and then people actually had an opportunity at the Film Festival to not only engage with the filmmakers who we brought to the UK, but also to engage with the issues that they raised throughout the arts, throughout the films that they brought, they selected to bring to the UK audience.
{Emmanuella}
- Honestly, and that was I think especially really owned what it means to do that work authentically. Because I think it's one thing to show films which are in themselves a variety and eclectic and a real breadth of what it means to be an individual. And I think that kind of the way which kind of has shown these amazing artists, ultimately creatives and filmmakers who've done work within their own communities and sharing their own stories, but also showing things that you may never have expected to have seen because of the nuances that they also want to share. And I think that was so amazing. But equally being able to meet them, meet the people who curated it, the people who also made the films, ultimately you're humanising even beyond what already is a humanised tool in a way. And I think what that actually provides us as an opportunity is incredibly special. Even right down to bringing some of the materials from the communities and some of the jewellery - and I still have one of the chokers - It's just so incredible to see how you really create this environment that celebrates a culture, but you're doing so in a way where you have the people part of it integral and centred.
And I wonder in terms of this in and of itself, what kind of additional opportunities does almost understanding your audience in that way provide for building resilience as part of climate action in terms of even the longevity of doing this film festival again, you know?
{Yula}
- We reflect about this a lot with the curators, Graci Guarani, Takumã Kuikuro and Ziel Karapotó. I like to say their names loud because I think it's important to name the artists here. And I think just by bringing their art to the audience, it's just talking about climate without being on your face. Because I think the climate is indivisible from the work they do. Even if they're not talking about climate, climate is there. And I think that is partially the success of this festival, the success of bringing Indigenous artists to Europe, is to be able to open a space to this sort of conversation about climate without talking directly about climate. I don't know if I make myself clear about this, but I guess, you know, just by bringing what they've been producing in Brazil, in their territories, not only in Brazil, but in Latin America, because we brought some films from South America as well, is just opening up this conversation and hopefully engage the public with this conversation about climate, about the Indigenous work, about the right to exist for these Indigenous people.
{Emmanuella}
- You actually mentioned timing a bit earlier, Jess, as well, about how timing is a big factor of how things can almost succeed or, you know, might be almost too early in this development when society is ready to perceive it. And I wonder, how does timing influence the impact?
{Jess}
- Hmm, yeah, it's a really good question. I can think of timing on sort of a more micro scale. I think a lot about, you know, what it is that makes people hear and listen, and context is really important in that, and timing as well is really important in that. So, on sort of a micro level, say like an interaction with one other person, you know, or also on a community level - timing is really important, and I think that also comes, it's not a formula, you know, it has to do with what interaction is happening at that moment and what context, and within that, what timing is going to make someone be able to engage in something. I hope that makes sense. It's a little bit vague and micro, but I think it's really important when we're trying to reach people and, yeah, have a message be heard.
{Yula}
- I think it's really important, timing, you know, when we do our projects, we try to build around moments when people will be paying attention to certain subjects and conversations. So, for instance, COP30 coming up in 2025 will take place in Brazil in the heart of the Amazon forest, and we've been talking about how we can make use of this time to bring up the projects that we are working with our Indigenous partners, because I think it's their time, you know, to be able, and for people to pay attention to what they have to say. So why not use this opportunity to vocalise what they want to share.
So, yeah, I'm in two minds, because I guess, you know, in one hand, we still have to be extremely respectful of the time that these people function, but on the other hand, we have the pressure of taking the opportunity when people are engaged in certain conversations to make use of this time. But I wish we would keep on talking about it, you know, besides COPs, besides big summits about climate, I think we should carry on talking about it.
{Emmanuella}
- Absolutely. And I think actually, even in doing this work, it makes it so much more valuable when you're able to understand, not just the impact you're trying to have, but also the journey of connecting to people's hearts and minds, and what that looks like. And I wonder, in terms of the challenges that kind of arise from some of these more progressive engagement campaigns, what has anything arisen from your projects? But also, what did you learn from that also?
{Yula}
24:15
- There are so many challenges, Emma. I guess, you know, our main thing is giving Indigenous artists voices. And by saying that, I mean really giving them voices, you know, not talking on their behalf, but finding the space for them to speak, and creating space for people to listen. And I guess, you know, this has been very challenging for us throughout the work that we've been doing. But I guess it all comes back to the relationship of trust, that when we create the spaces, they feel truly represented. And by feeling truly represented, we establish ground to keep on working with them, and hopefully, to keep on opening more spaces for people to engage with them.
{Emmanuella}
- That's so beautiful and so real as well, Yula. And I thank you for sharing because the reality is, yeah, addressing these issues and doing so in this way can really vary. And even sometimes, it can be almost contentious in terms of even creating these spaces. And we may not always get it right, especially the first time, you know. And I think, how do you almost address these moments internally, but also publicly? And what would be your advice to, again, other organisations who may almost maybe see that as a barrier to even making more of that kind of activist stance?
{Yula}
- My advice is also to listen to your partners internally and externally. You know, when we work with the Waoshua people, with the Koyukuru people, with the Guaraní and other Indigenous artists in Brazil, it's just to truly sit down with them and listen to what they want to say and what they want from that project. Because sometimes, you arrive, you come to them with an incredible idea that you think will be amazing, and they go like, actually, no, we don't need that now.
So I guess, just listen to your partners, listen to what they have to say. So we came with a huge demand from our Indigenous partners, the filmmakers, when we brought them to the UK, they kept saying, you know, Yula, it's amazing that we've been travelling the world, we've been bringing our films to festivals in Europe, in the US, as well. But actually, when we go back to our villages, when we go back to our territories, we keep on going and we keep on working without any resources, without any funding, without any support. So what can we do for them to actually keep producing amazing films, so we are able to produce another edition of the film festival.
And that was really eye-opening for us, because of course, we cannot take for granted that they will keep producing if they have no support. So we tried in London this time, when we brought them here in May, to connect them to the British Film Industry, so they could, you know, bridge the work they do with these people and find ways in which they can be supported. So again, I think, is just to listen to them, because it might be that they need some water for the communities, it might be that their priority is not producing films or the arts, but they need some resources to equip their local school. And this is as important as producing a film or poem or an art installation.
So again, this relationship comes with responsibility. So I tell every single organisation just to listen to your partners, if you want to keep on going and keep on working with them.
{Emmanuella}
- That is an amazing piece of advice. And I wonder if even just for either of you, maybe yourself as well, Jess, is there a part of your work or career that you value the most? And is there anything that you've kind of had to do to almost protect that as well?
{Jess}
- One of the parts I value the most is collaboration and partnership. Yeah, for me, this also means sort of redefining work and colleagues and like, realising that, when I'm working at my kind of best and when I feel most is possible, and when with our team is most as possible, is when we're engaging with each other on a very human level. And like, you know, there's been times when my colleagues are my family, and like, that was the level of trust that was needed in order to take the risks that we needed, needed to get to where we were getting to. And I don't mean they were like, actually my family, but I consider them like my family. And yeah, it's been the magic is that those collaborations and partnerships. And yeah, without it, I really don't think on, personally, I wouldn't be able to do and engage with the things that I did.
{Emmanuella}
- How do you, how do we see the corporate landscape evolving? And what are some of the things that organisations should ultimately be putting in place today to be able to be purpose driven and meaningful?
{Jess}
- I would go back to looking for local solutions, empowering local, a local level of voices being heard. I'd also say thinking outside of profits, to me, that is such a blinding and forceful, motivation that I don't feel is useful.
{Yula}
- I always think about the green washing, that we are always facing and in danger of being associated with funders or corporate organisations that might be funding our project. So I think, you know, to really understand and to make sure that your projects are meaningful and purpose driven as you mentioned, I think we should be also aware of who we are working with and how we are working to put this project, these ideas in place.
{Emmanuella}
- What would you say to our listeners as a tangible call to action to kind of help them continue some of this, you know, learning or musings? Is there a book? Do you have an organisation you'd recommend, a film, a petition, or something that you'd love them to support further?
{Yula}
- Oh, I may have a list of suggestions! So I would, no, I would direct people to our website because there is so much there that you can learn from and you can watch films, you can read articles from our partners. So I would, if I may, I would direct people to www.peoplespalaceprojects.org.uk and also our YouTube platform. It's full of interesting short videos and films that we host, also our partners work in there. So yeah, so I just come along and have a look because there is a lot of interesting things and access to loads of interesting content.
{Jess}
- A project I was recently really inspired by is called Land Body Ecologies. It's a festival that recently took place at the Wellcome Collection and was exploring the relationship between mental health and ecosystem health. And it was created by an interdisciplinary network from, around the world. Such an incredible example of the intersection of art, conservation, and community-based research practices. So the festivals happened, but I would say definitely check out their website and keep watching that space for what's coming. It's a really incredible project.
{Yula}
32:30
- Well, I just, I think it's in my mind, this quote that I got from one of our partners, Piratá Wauja, that I think summarises a lot of what we've been talking about, the responsibility of working with these partners, representing these partners and talking about climate.
So it says, "When our rivers and our forests are threatened by people and by governments, so are our spirits. Working with our non Indigenous partners. We are not just doing a project. Here we are letting our force, our energy, our spirit come out, to make art, to fight, and to save our territory. So we need to make sure our spirit emerges strong to talk to the world as we make this art work together."
{Emmanuella}
- Thank you so much for sharing. I think that is incredibly powerful and I think it’s an absolutely beautiful way to articulate the realities of what it means to work with not just indigenous groups, but the realities of the heart and soul that comes with that and actually what is necessary in terms of being mindful, but also being intentional with that partnership.
Honestly, this has been an incredible conversation. I feel very grateful and honoured to have been able to host it. Thank you so much, Yula and Jess. This has been the Creative Climate Leadership Podcast. Stay tuned for the next episode.
Thanks for joining us! What have you taken away from this episode? Feel free to share your thoughts with us using #CCLPodcast
And you can find links to resources mentioned in the description of this episode by visiting the CCL website at creativeclimateleadership.com for more information.
This podcast is constructed by the Creative Climate Leadership alumni network - an evolving network growing from the CCL programme led by Julie’s Bicycle - a pioneering UK-based non-profit mobilising the arts and culture to take action on the climate and ecological crisis. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe to the Creative Climate Leadership podcast and get in touch with us on ccl@juliesbicycle.com.
This podcast is produced by Hum Studio Interactive in co-creation with Julie’s Bicycle. We thank our sponsors Nordisk KulturFond, Swedish Postcode Lottery, and Porticus.