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On Cornerstone Conversations, we explore the unique dynamic of fathers and sons who work together, whether they built something from scratch or carried something forward.
Our mission is to create a space for intentional conversation and storytelling around family business transitions and legacy by enabling more dads to see working with their kids as a discipleship opportunity and more sons to see working with dad as an honor, not a handout.
Learn more about Cornerstone Coaching at www.cornerstoneco.com
Kile Graves: [00:00:00] Welcome to Cornerstone Conversations where we discuss timely topics impacting communities, cultures, and economies. First topic we're gonna dive into in this series is family business. Currently, there are 32 million family businesses in the US generating over half of our GDP as a country. They also employ 83 million people.
What's interesting is only 30% of family businesses make it to the second generation, and only 12% make it to the third. You've probably heard of the great wealth transfer that is taking place across the globe in the next five to seven years. 40% of all the small businesses in the US are owned by a baby boomer.
Who is reaching retirement age pretty soon. As coaches, we're really interested in what those impacts do to communities and cultures at large. We've had the privilege of walking alongside a lot of family business leaders over the past few years, and we believe this major intersection is something that can really, uh, impact communities as well.
We're gonna talk to six, uh, dads and sons that are working together and are trying to navigate what it means as a [00:01:00] son to carry forward what their dad started, and as dads trying to let go of something that they've held onto for so long.
Thank you guys for doing this. Um, today we're talking with McCain and Jeff Martin. I've known you guys for a long time and I've gotten to do life with you in a lot of different seasons. And, uh, it's fun to see you guys working together now and, uh, excited to unpack your story and, uh, learn what it's been like to work together and what the future holds and to kind of set the stage.
So this series, uh, we're really unpacking two categories of family businesses. Um, the first one is a legacy business. So this is third, fourth, fifth generation business where your great-grandfather started a business and then it went to you, and then now McKay stepping into it. The second category is what we call a joint family venture.
So this is a dad and son starting something new together. They're both bringing their unique backgrounds, skill sets, interests, [00:02:00] passions, and putting it together to form something new. You guys are kind of in the middle. There's a little bit of both, I feel like going on in your story. I mean, there's some new elements for sure, but there's also some legacy components from what you've been doing in the past, Jeff.
Um, and so I'm excited to kind of unpack that with you guys. Um, so to start, uh, maybe give us your background. You know, you both, you have the same last name, but you have your own stories and so, uh, Jeff, maybe give us your background, what you were doing previously, kind of right up until the moment where you guys have started to start, uh, working together.
Jeff Martin: Yeah, yeah. Kyle, Steve, thanks for, for inviting us in and, um, we're just excited to just share a little bit of. Our story. Um, so, um, yeah, so really my interest in, in real estate development and construction stemmed from really high school, college, [00:03:00] uh, grew up in Southern California and I was around architects, engineers, uh, land developers, builders all growing up.
And so I was, I was pushing brooms, I was goering, I was doing whatever just to learn about construction, real estate development. Uh, I've kind of condensed this a little bit, found myself in Fayetteville, Arkansas in 1993. I followed my wife here. Uh, we both grew up in, in southern California. Uh, she came here to go to the university.
And, um, you know, never in my wildest mind would I have thought that I could start my own construction business. Building a residential custom home builder business at 26 years old. Yeah. So here I am. I, I had a, I had a few, um, positions before [00:04:00] I, I took the leap into, um, being a business owner. I worked for the Bank of Bentonville on the square in Bentonville for about a year.
And then I worked for a few other builders, um, including Wendy's father. Uh, he was a developer, uh, doing FHA homes and just affordable h housing back in really the first Walmart boom, you know, which was that mid nineties timeframe. So, um. Anyways, a lot happened in, in, in our lives then for Wendy and I, we were starting a family.
Um, we were starting a business and we were also learning about stewardship, uh, from a spiritual perspective, which was huge in our formation of why we were doing what we were doing. So, um, so we moved into building a few spec [00:05:00] houses and, um, and then into custom home building over the next, uh, um, that was about a 20, 20, 25 year run in all of Northwest Arkansas.
And, you know, as you guys well know, I mean we, you know, we learned so much in our work. God teaches us so much. Uh, there's so much formation that happens.
Steve Graves: Yeah.
Michael: And, and I, and I'm, I'm parking on that a little bit upfront because that's really why we're sitting here today.
Steve Graves: That's great.
Michael: Um, and just, just having the opportunity to, to, you know, yes.
Build something and, uh, and develop relationships and, uh, be part of the community formation, you know, with residential construction and development is really fun. Um, [00:06:00] you know, starting two years ago now, you know, I get to do that with one of my boys and so that's, that's been really rewarding, that whole transition.
Um, did we, did we like plan it or have any expectation of it? No. It wasn't like, matter of fact, I think I probably ruined my boys on job sites when they were young because they were cleaning up and just doing That's right. You know, all the bad stuff. Do you remember any of these?
McKane Martin: Unfortunately, yeah. I mean, construction was not in my, uh, in my future until, I mean, obviously things change, but yeah.
No, I, none of us were really,
Michael: you're not keen on the idea.
McKane Martin: No, no.
Steve Graves: Yeah. You thought construction was simply cleaning up behind dad. That's,
McKane Martin: yeah, pretty much. I thought it was punishment.
Michael: That's the same as discipline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so after, you know, several years of, uh, [00:07:00] primarily custom home building, I, I knew that there was gonna be a shift coming, uh, you know, whether, whether, you know, one of my boys was involved in it or not.
We, I wanted to get more involved in, um, development. Uh. Land formation from just raw land to, to creating something that was going to fill a need in our community. So, um, so we started that shift about five years ago. Um, there, you know, the vision that was on the table was just simply, um, we are going to pull back from the, from the custom home building.
Operations and, and pull that into just the projects that we're developing. So we're still doing design build.
Steve Graves: Mm-hmm.
Michael: Um, but it's in our own projects and so they ended up being, you know, spec more [00:08:00] speculative.
Steve Graves: Yeah. That'll be fun. That'll be fun in a few minutes. I almost, to come back to some of the, um, some of the thinking and, uh, that's, that's making you pivot and shape and, you know, kind of engineer differently.
I got a couple questions I wanna come back to this on 'cause I, I, I, I'm always interested when businesses. And business owners take a significant, uh, pivot when they, you know, it's one thing just to do a little minor innovation, whatever, you know, add on, um, a add on, um, you know, a a a pool and a pool house to a house.
That's whatever. But when you make a significant engineered pivot or shift in your business theory or business model, that's always interesting to me. So I wanna come back to their, um, stay on the origin story. Stay on the, stay on the, so McCain, give us a little bit of your walk up to the moment, um, where you're watching kind of here's where, here's where dad is now and here's where the, the McCain, I mean the Martin construction world is, [00:09:00] how'd you get there?
McKane Martin: Yeah, I mean, I obviously grew up around, um, home building, construction, a little bit of development, obviously, you know, watching him run his own business that was. If anything from like my, from my upbringing, that was definitely still a desire of mine to, um, own my own business. Whether that, whether that was obviously not in construction at the time, but something else, another industry.
Um, and he was always super supportive. So
Steve Graves: time out, time out. So early on in your formation years as a young man, the fact that you had a dad who worked for himself had his own business, that was an appealing thing to you. So means some, not everybody does that. Some people go the other direction. They're like, man, of course I want none of that world.
I wanna go put me in Walmart or some big company's fast as I came in.
McKane Martin: Yeah. Super stable and
Steve Graves: Yeah. Yep.
McKane Martin: Yeah. Predictable. Predictable. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I mean obviously there's, I didn't know everything behind the [00:10:00] curtain. Yeah. Um, which was, which was good. Um, but I was exposed to enough, I think, to gimme the itch and, um, yeah, I mean, I just think it's, you know.
We both like to create stuff in our own respective lanes, and I knew I was gonna be doing that at some point. And that's kind of my, my first career stop was at, was at be to go with Kyle. And that's what I was doing there. I mean, I was doing, doing, uh, all of our product development and, um, project management really on the apparel side.
And I mean, it's, it's not far from what I'm doing now in our business from like, just like a skillset standpoint, kind of balancing some creative and linear skills. Um, so yeah, I mean I, I did that for, or we were that started back in,
Michael: you were in high school?
McKane Martin: Yeah, I mean, 2018 I was graduating high school and, uh, at the [00:11:00] time, uh, Terry Turpen just.
I don't even know. Called my brother and I and were just like, y'all wanna run the social media for this company? I'm starting. And we're just like, yeah, that sounds fun. Like, you gonna pay us exactly when we get
Steve Graves: t-shirts, get t-shirt studies. How much
Michael: pre mech.
McKane Martin: Yeah, exactly. So we didn't really know I was, what we were getting into, obviously where fast forward seven years to where it ended up.
You know, I, I had no idea I was gonna be, probably have the, the role that I had from like a responsibility perspective and like decision making power, like that was
Michael: Yeah. You got baptized into
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Michael: Entrepreneurship.
McKane Martin: Gnarly in a serious way.
Michael: Pretty
McKane Martin: 23 years old, like making, you know, decisions with seven figures attached to him.
So, uh, yeah, that was, that was great. I mean, from like a small business perspective. Yeah. I mean, baptized in that, and again, got [00:12:00] another little taste of like. Operationally, like how does, you know, starting a business work, um, all that. And yeah, he knows. I mean, I was like, he, I always would call him and be like, here's the, here's the situation.
Like, oh, am I in too deep here? Like those
Michael: you are always fun situations.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Steve Graves: Yeah. You had no idea you were, you were gonna be in apparel business yourself, did you? Oh,
McKane Martin: yeah.
Michael: I was learning, I was
McKane Martin: learning a
Steve Graves: lot. Sidecar, I learned a lot.
Michael: So, uh, yeah. So started into high school all the way through college and then postgrad a lot of life change during that whole season of your life and career.
Do you remember when, uh, Jeff started thinking about pivoting away from purely custom home building to development stuff? Was that towards the end of bearded goat because you started doing some projects?
McKane Martin: Yeah,
Michael: I remember on the side kind of helping him out with stuff.
McKane Martin: I would say
Michael: take us through kind of that transitional period.
McKane Martin: I mean, I was, I was locked in on. On BG and, [00:13:00] and, and doing that to, to wherever that led me, I mean, graduated college in three years early, um, trying to get out, trying to work more. And yeah, I mean, I remember probably around 2020 or so, like he was starting to change. I think that's something that's cool about what you were talking about earlier, Steve, like his story with the pivot.
Like it wasn't just like a alright, student body left, we're doing something different. Like he was very intentional about kind of slowly riding the ship to where he wanted to go and, um, now we got even a little bit more horsepower on that. So that's been fun. But yeah, I mean, I, I definitely recognize it.
And then when he got into the development game, um, probably, I don't know, my last two. Two years or one year at Be to go. Like, obviously I was a little bit a part of that from just, he, I was doing some marketing, really consulting [00:14:00] and just some creative direction for him on project specific stuff. And we didn't really see that as an on-ramp to what we're doing now, but it's kind of turned into that.
So, so
Michael: you didn't think that was gonna lead to,
McKane Martin: not at first where you, I thought I was just kind of helping him out. Like, did you, I,
Michael: I had it in the back of my mind, but I was like, I, you know, I'm not gonna bring, I wasn't gonna bring that up. I was gonna let, I wanted McCain to run, run his path.
Steve Graves: Yeah.
Michael: Um, and you know, bearded goat was still, you know, very much, you know, that was, that was a, there was a path forward there.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Graves: So, Jeff, when you were Quick, quick, just a global question for both of you before we move on, Kyle, sorry. But, um, when you were, when you were parenting. Um, I'm always interested in this. Uh, we've known each other a long, long time, which is really fun for me to be sitting here with you. But like, when you were parenting, you know, some parents, some, some dads, um, [00:15:00] some parents who own their own businesses in some ways, what they do is they try to shield their family from all of the drama and the headaches and the ups and downs and the risk and just some of that.
And you're not, you're not, you just, that's just what you think is the right approach. Some people just like, there is no shield, it's just a big old front door and like, if, if you've had a bad day, it just, everybody is gonna know it or whatever. Um, you know how much it's, it's less about your emotional framework, it's more about how intentional, 'cause I know you as a very intentional dad, that's who I know Jeff Martin is.
He is a, he's one intentional dad. You are a lot of things, but I know you're that. So when you were, when you were, when you were raising your boys, were you thinking, I need to give them, uh, you know, I need to give them some vantage of, of what it looks like to own your own business and to what this world is like over dinner.
Did you talk about stuff and, and, and [00:16:00] rehearse, not necessarily your day, but like, did, did they feel like they were journeying with you as a small business owner, you know, as, as you know, the CEO, all that stuff? Or how much of shielding did you do?
Michael: Yeah, that's a great question. I, um, I. Steve, I, I don't think I really, I really even processed that as being like an intentional part of parenting.
It just was what it was.
Steve Graves: Okay.
Michael: So, and I think I really, you know, I, I learned that, you know, really through, you know, a paradigm shift of me owning something versus God providing it and I'm getting to manage it. That was really the paradigm shift. And so with Wendy, um, although Wendy was not a professional [00:17:00] builder, she brought so much value to the table in our decision making.
We were a small business, but you know, you feel all the little bumps. She was very much part of it. So, so family, Wendy was, I mean, it was just a natural, once we started having our kids, it was just like, this is what we do, this is how we do it. And so we learned just as much as Wendy and I learned a lot from our work, the boys, I think were learning a lot from our work.
Steve Graves: Yeah. That, that has, that's where I was trying to get to. So when you talk about looking into your dad's world, it wasn't just like some cloudy thing where I don't really, I don't really know or feel anything. Like you, you had moments of really seeing what was going on and feeling what was going on.
McKane Martin: Yeah, I mean, for sure.
I mean, a, a lighter moment just to take it back, you know, one of the first times that I was like, oh, my dad kind of has a different [00:18:00] job than everyone else. Uh, we'd go on field trips as kids to like the job site. Like he'd sign it up with our teacher and everything and we'd go and, and everyone loved it. I mean, they were like, what?
Yeah. Where like, where are we?
Michael: Absolutely.
McKane Martin: And uh, so I think that was like kind of where it was like, man, he, this is something different than like going to an office and you know, he is got people that work for him, like he's kind of the boss, you know, like, and then I think transitioning just to us growing up, like, yeah, I mean I, we felt the pressure, like it wasn't hidden from us of like, you know, around that 2009, 2010 timeframe and, you know, when things in the real estate market got a little shaken up and, um, yeah.
I mean it wasn't, it wasn't like, there wasn't anything to be scared of. That wasn't his perspective ever. Or like
Steve Graves: Gotcha.
McKane Martin: Um, but yeah, I mean it was like we gotta make, be unified as a family and make some decisions here that are gonna. You know, benefit everyone and keep, so yeah. I mean, [00:19:00] I, I knew that that was part of Own your own business.
Steve Graves: Yeah.
McKane Martin: You're the check writer. You know, you're, you're putting food on the table like it's on you. Um, I'm, I'm learning that in real time. Mm-hmm. Right now, but,
Michael: oh yeah.
McKane Martin: Uh, yeah. It's, yeah, that was definitely all part of it.
Michael: So last, last question before we get to the formation of, uh, of Martin Development group.
Do you, so did you feel like you knew what your dad did or did he just drive around in the truck? I remember this story.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Michael: You were telling last time.
McKane Martin: It's funny,
Michael: dad just drives around the
McKane Martin: truck. He does, he drives around the
Michael: phone and point Yeah.
McKane Martin: A big truck point, that stuff. Yeah. No, I called my other brother Mason, my older brother.
Like this is last year after I was probably, I don't know, a year into working together. And I was kind of managing my, my own pro, my first own project, not own probably I was responsible for maybe 30% of it. And, um. And I called my brother and I was like, dude, you won't, you won't believe what I just did.
He's like, what? I was [00:20:00] like, dude, you know, like when we would drive around with dad and all he would do is just drive around on his phone and like point at stuff, and he would come up to his door and he'd just tell him he is on the phone. I was like, I just did that to like five people and I've been in my truck sitting at the job site for like an hour there.
You're
Steve Graves: I just became,
McKane Martin: I just became my dad. I, I just became him. Yeah. Yeah. I
became
Steve Graves: Jeff. I, I just became Jeff. I'm,
Michael: I'm
McKane Martin: done. So
Steve Graves: That's great.
Michael: Mason's like, I'm glad I'm in California. That's funny. Yeah.
McKane Martin: Yeah, exactly.
Michael: That's great. So, so yeah, you both gave us your background, started kind of pivoting, thinking about development five years ago.
Started doing some side projects together towards the end of, uh, your previous, uh, job, McCain. How did, how did the dance go? Did you, did you bring it up? Did McCain bring it up? How did, how did you actually decide like, Hey, let's go. Let's actually work together and let's do this.
McKane Martin: Yeah, I mean, it was, it was definitely [00:21:00] initiated by me.
I mean, he kind of mentioned it earlier. He, um, never put any pressure, um, on us to like onboard into the business at any point. I mean, it was all about, you know, how to, how to get us set up for success in whatever we decided to do. Um, literally from, from high school, um, or, or earlier, I mean, always introducing us to different people in the industry, other industries and and stuff.
So yeah, it was definitely initiated by me. Um, it started as, you know, I kind of knew BG was, was sunset my time, there was gonna be sunset. And um, I was just calling him for like career advice. The initial. Like next career conversations for me had had nothing to do with working together. Um, and then it was actually, um, I mean Kyle was a [00:22:00] huge part of just kind of that discovery and um, just how honoring that relationship and um, you know, legacy piece could play into, into family business.
And, and I'd kind of been, you know, probably deaf ears to some of that. Like I was, in my mind, I was still, I'm gonna go do my own thing, you know, cut my own teeth, start something, go get some more experience somewhere else to do something else eventually. And
Michael: is that, 'cause you saw this as like a handout or what, what was the
McKane Martin: I just think that
Michael: we know the answer 'cause we talked about it.
McKane Martin: Yeah. I mean, I think that, um. I just had. Yeah. I mean it was just, I was, it was just a prideful stake. Yeah. I mean, I didn't want to just like, uh, take an easy route, go work for my dad, like that sort of thing. And it was all like reflecting back on it all, uh, it's just, it was just lies and BS and, [00:23:00] and stuff.
And it, it took a few people to speak that into me to be like, dude, there's a, a, a really good opportunity here and that could, a lot of your skills could, could help kind of, um, you know, where, where he's going and, and stuff. Maddie, my wife was, um, huge proponent of that. She was like, you gotta put yourself aside, like this would be a cool thing.
That's fine to work with your dad. And, um. Definitely credit to her. And, and Kyle and I spent a lot of time in our old office kind of hashing out all the pros and cons of working with your dad. We used
Michael: the whiteboard up.
McKane Martin: Yeah. We were whiteboarding, whiteboard did, we had like a Steve call and a Jeff call and then everything that was wrong with you guys strike.
Did you ever see that? Did you ever, you guys got pictures of
Steve Graves: that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Y'all should have brought us in. That can help us. That can help
McKane Martin: us
Steve Graves: actually see, because we met later on and we were, we met later on and we had the, you know, should we, like why? Yeah. No, you know, that's really fun.
So, so [00:24:00] Jeff on your side, you know, did you have just like, um, one big, clear epiphany, boy he needs to work with me, let's get this done. Or was it more like sliding out on the ice one step at a time? Let me see if this one's clear and then I'll get another green light and get to the next, like what, like how did it, how did it unfold for you?
'cause you got more than one boy.
Michael: Yeah.
Steve Graves: And, and you know, like, how did all this. How'd you get to the couch with two
Michael: of you? So definitely one step at a time. And that wasn't really, from my perspective, it was really thinking about where McCain was. Okay. 'cause I knew he was going through processing this. I mean, there was a, there's a lot for him to work through.
Yeah. Um, and, you know, uh, you know, father son relationship, I mean, there's all the great things that are in that, but then there's also, you know, the buttons. And so I wanted him to be able to get to a place, you know, before we even, you know, stepped into those [00:25:00] conversations. So, but the segue was, it was already kind of teed up because like, he, like McCain said earlier, he was already doing some project work for us, you know, branding
Steve Graves: Okay.
Michael: Website, uh, you know, project specific mm-hmm. Type things. So he, he already had a really clear picture. Of what we were developing, um, as part of our pivot. So we had, you know, we had about three projects that we were, that we were working on. Um, they were all in entitlement phases and planning and Got it.
All that. So, so pretty good, pretty good, clear window looking in. And I did, I mean, I was thinking in the back of my mind, I'm like, you know, I wonder if he's like, if this is attractive to him, if this is even something that he would want to step into. Because it was the first time I was thinking that there was actually an on-ramp, um, that wasn't [00:26:00] construction.
Steve Graves: Yeah.
Michael: Because in my mind, the only way you're coming in is construction.
Steve Graves: That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: So, um, anyway, so, so there was a, there was definitely an open space in my thinking at that point. And, and then McCain, uh. He just started asking a few questions and I think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we just quickly got to a point, Hey,
Steve Graves: let's, was there one moment, was there one dinner at one event?
Yeah. One where you guys shook hands and said, let's do this deal.
McKane Martin: Yeah, there were, there were two probably. There was a let's, we went to Ty Spice in, in Fayetteville over in Weddington. I, I was living over there at the time and yeah, I mean, that was probably the first, like, let's put something together.
Maybe. I don't think we were like inking a deal to like start a company together like we are have now, but it was, you know, what are some of your weak [00:27:00] spots in your business that I, that my skills will just directly affect?
Steve Graves: Yeah.
McKane Martin: Um, so yeah, we identified kind of some special projects really, um, to start.
And, um, and I, yeah, I did, I did that for about, you know, six months and. That's kinda how it started. And then we had another one probably maybe two months after that, um, at our office. And we were, we were just like, alright, what? Let's put everything on the table, you know? What, what are your biggest concerns?
What do you not like about me? Like what do you I like about how I work? Like where, where could you see this going South or
Michael: just,
McKane Martin: it's good. We've done a
Michael: little bit of work together.
McKane Martin: Yeah, we just laid it like all expectations. We laid it out. Um, which was good. I mean, he has always, my whole life has been approachable and like, I've never been afraid to like, ask him anything.
So, um, yeah, we had that [00:28:00] kind of deal. And then, um, and then we put together kind of a formal arrangement. It wasn't Martin Development group yet. I was still actually contracting for Martin Building Group. And, um. Yeah, that was, that was about a year. And then once he kind of figured out that I wasn't going anywhere, then we, we kind of revisited, what was
Michael: that?
The testing period,
McKane Martin: what Martin, what Martin development group would be. Yeah, I got that picture. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: So I, I wanna add though, so at that Ty Spice meeting that we had, which was the first official, Hey, let's talk about what this looks like. Uh, McCain's largest concern, and I, I so appreciate this, is that, look, I, and I knew he had so much fire in him to, to start his own business.
I knew that was gonna happen. I just didn't know what it was and when, [00:29:00] and so that was a big deal to him. He did not want to be in a place where I'm just rolling into dad's business, you know, a hand call it a handout.
Steve Graves: Yeah.
Michael: And I clearly remember my response to that. I'm like, well, McCain, um, first of all, I don't, um, I'm surprised that you would think I would give you a handout.
Um, and then, and then two, I can make sure that happens.
McKane Martin: Don't worry about
Michael: it. Yeah. So
McKane Martin: make it sound like it's a bad, like that was a bad arrangement.
Michael: No, it, it was, it was, no, we had fun with the conversation ultimately, but we had, it was serious though. There, I mean, we had to get,
McKane Martin: it was more of a coattails thing.
I like, I don't want Sure.
Steve Graves: Which is a real thing.
McKane Martin: Is a
Michael: real
Steve Graves: thing.
Michael: Absolutely. And
Steve Graves: sons joining their
McKane Martin: dad, especially in our line of work, like it's, it's, um, it's kind of a, you know, a man eats boy. Culture.
Michael: So when you look, when you look at like just [00:30:00] nationally, you look at the history of land developers, builders, I mean, there is, there's a lot of generational paths in, in those businesses.
'cause they are, you know, they're private in most cases. And, and, and small business in nature.
Steve Graves: Yeah. And there could be some, there could be some asset carry going on where Oh,
Michael: absolutely.
Steve Graves: There's stuff that takes long time horizons estate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Investment
Michael: properties,
Steve Graves: all that. Exactly. That's ing that.
That's interesting Jeff. Yeah.
Michael: So, you know, coming out of that conversation, I, um, I think we were both resolved. Okay, let's take the next step. Um, and at that point I was, you know, there was, I, I still had a dad hat on 'cause I, I wanted to, I wanted to. Unselfishly give McCain good direction in what your ne your next steps, I'm gonna support you no matter what.
This is not a lock in. Yeah. [00:31:00] Um, from, from just the perspectives, because we have this talk. I'm still giving you the freedom to make choices and decisions. Yeah. That was it. So, and then in the back of my mind I was thinking, you know, how do, how do, how do we shape this? Because it's, it's not gonna be a coattail thing.
That's great. Um, so we can go into that a little bit. You mean like structure wise? Further? Structure wise? Yeah. How did you do that? Just briefly touch on it. 'cause that's probably something a lot of people are interested in. Yeah. Is how are you gonna structure this dad and son because you, you don't wanna handout, but you probably are also, like we talked about this last time.
How do you handle risk now that your son's involved? Yeah. You. You probably naturally wanna shield him from sun, some of it, 'cause he is your son, but he is saying, don't shield me. You know? So how did you, how'd you navigate that? Yeah, I mean, just simply put, we, you know, Martin Building Group is, you know, primarily our [00:32:00] construction, our vertical, um, uh, integration practice.
I mean that's, that's the construction part. Okay. So with the projects that we're doing, in most cases, they're all single asset entities. So you're, you're starting a whole new LLC for a specific project. So we put together some formation there with, um, with these new LLCs with an ownership structure that, that was shared with a common new LLC Martin Development group.
So Martin Development Group owned a share of. The project LLC. So that way we were also able to, uh, protect, you know, a young balance sheet. Mm-hmm. And, uh, also have some skin in the game and, uh, and some ownership. It's great. [00:33:00] Legitimately.
Steve Graves: Yeah,
great
Michael: structure ownership. So it wasn't just a, you know, you're getting, you know, you're getting a paycheck.
Steve Graves: Yeah. I'm a big, you know, you guys all know I'm, I'm a big organizational design guy. Just, I've always loved it. And, um, whenever you organize a company and there's, um, a lack of integrity. Now, when I say integrity, don't think moral. Think construction and for construction guys, whenever you design something that's really, it can't hold you, but you know, and it, and it's like, it's, it's, it's either upside down or it's just got fractures in it.
Structural integrity, structural integrity. Yeah. Per, yeah. Thank you. Um, you know, it's gonna show up eventually and so you guys were designing against some very important principles and values and outcomes and things. And so I, I mean, I love that the structural design pieces of how you guys said, let's, let's organize it this way so we can get these [00:34:00] things, which I, that's awesome.
McKane Martin: Yeah. I think some of the also note too, just on, on that point, like from a, from a decision making standpoint and like legally voting standpoint, we're all, we're, we're the same. And I say that we may not financially be the same in every project, but like. That just gives me a lot of confidence.
Steve Graves: Yep.
McKane Martin: As a partner.
Yep. Not just like his son.
Steve Graves: And that's a perfect example. So, okay. That's a perfect example what I'm saying. You, you know, like, you, you can't have it where there's equal risk. 'cause when you said young balance sheet, I got it. I know what that looks like. You know, and, and, but, but you can't also be like, well, I'm only gonna be a 5% or 10% or 15%, you know, voice in this in the future or vision or what we're doing.
So that's, I love that. Well done.
Michael: Yeah.
Steve Graves: Well, fellas,
Michael: so got your backgrounds, kinda got the formation story, uh, transitional period, got some structure in place. What's it like to work together now, dad and son, how are you [00:35:00] dividing up roles? Who's, who's doing what? Just kind of on a, on a day-to-day basis. Um, and we can get into maybe some of the juicier stuff after that, but just at a surface level, how are you dividing up roles and responsibilities?
What's that been like? Got it. You got it.
Well being, you know, being a, being a really small business, um, basically Wendy and I, and McCain and Mattel, I mean those, you know, that's it. That's it. Yeah. That we do have, we do have a, a, uh, project superintendent and then, and then we have a operations manager. Did you hire someone? I know
McKane Martin: you, you did. We just did started on Monday
Michael: actually.
Just this week. Yeah.
McKane Martin: Sweet. Yeah. Who is it? Her name's Candy Holcomb.
Michael: Okay.
McKane Martin: She's just kind of got like a operation background in commercial construction. Small bit like [00:36:00] medium sized business.
Michael: Nice.
McKane Martin: So we're
Michael: just hoping she's like a Swiss Army knife kind
McKane Martin: of we're hoping. Yeah. There's her resume check boxes.
Michael: Yeah, exactly. There you go. A small team. I mean. Small thing. You're all doing everything. Yeah. I think there's, you know, we, there's a lot of formation to still happen there. Yeah. Um, but I feel pretty good that, you know, we've, you know, we've navigated thus far, McCain and I are, our dispositions are pretty similar.
Um, you know, just from a, you know, dealing with tension and pressure and, you know, response, not reacting. So we're gonna, we're gonna lean into conversation. Yeah. When really we've gotta deal with something hard. Um, I think we do that pretty well. I mean, that's, you know, we're, that's, yeah.
Steve Graves: Is that, is that typically, has that been a daily, a weekly, a monthly, like when y'all, when y'all have to have a, you know, a conversation or two or a [00:37:00] another tie another Thai lunch.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Steve Graves: You know, is that a, is that a, is that a weekly thing or is that a monthly thing? Or is it, is there any way to know,
McKane Martin: I mean.
Michael: Not weekly.
McKane Martin: Not weekly. Yeah. I mean, I think our, our workflows, we, we both have so much independence in our roles.
Steve Graves: Okay.
McKane Martin: Um, that I, I think, you know, global conversations don't happen that often, I guess, but, you know, we both know what each other are doing and what we're responsible for.
It's where we can kind of get an inkling of like, Hey, we probably need to like circle up here and make sure we're
Steve Graves: Yeah.
McKane Martin: On the same page. And
Steve Graves: so majority of the time you're just head down in your lane doing your respective work pieces. And I mean,
Michael: there's a lot of, there's a lot of crossover and there's, there's still, you know, there's, there's training and learning.
I mean, you know, I mean, honestly, I mean, he's, he's had a fire hose in his mouth for the last two years. Um. [00:38:00] All the, you know, a lot of the construction related stuff. 'cause I mean, that at the end of the day, I mean, the really, the way we started it all out, I'm like, look, you, you need to get your real estate license.
Whether you end up becoming a broker agent, doesn't matter. It's just for the knowledge. And getting some transactions under your belt already knew that, you know, his, his gift sets were, were, were creative. Um, but also like project management, linear thinking, which is a very unique, uh, gift set
mm-hmm.
To have both of those.
So, so really over the last two years, he's, you know, he's, uh, I mean the things that he's accomplished that, that were allowing us to make this transition and give him ownership was. He took the whole property management platform and, and has managed that and run that with all of our student residences, [00:39:00] and then also put him on a beginning to end, uh, assistant role in, uh, on, on the site, uh, under my superintendent.
I see. So he learned a lot about what needs to happen on a site from beginning to end, not just the planning stages. Yeah. So I think, I mean, that's really summer, you know, summarizing the last two years. Uh, in addition to that, I mean all the, all the branding, marketing stuff that he just, I just, just, you know, it's his, that's his wheelhouse.
Yeah. Yeah. Just oozes out. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even, I mean, I'm, I'm like literally at the point where I'm just like, Kenner, you got it. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Just make sure the signage is sustainable, right? Yeah. Just make sure it's gonna be there.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Michael: Sustainable
McKane Martin: sign maintenance construction is, that's a real thing.
It's horrible.
Michael: Uh, I mean, that hits on a, a point I wanted to talk about too was, uh, letting go of certain things like as the older generation, some core tensions I've seen with dad and [00:40:00] sons that just pop up that are working together. The son's core tensions are ambition versus humility. So ambition, they want to, they wanna be here, they wanna put their fingerprints on it.
They wanna be involved, they want ownership, they want the risk. Uh, but they also have to balance some humility. Otherwise they're gonna be grinding your gears nonstop. Yep. Uh, the dad's core tensions are some element of steering wisely because you still have more experience, more knowledge, uh, years of doing this, but you also have to let go of some things.
Otherwise, sun's gonna get burned out. And they're like, well, that, why am I sticking around if I didn't, if I don't get to do anything? So those two tensions are at play for both of y'all. Um, has that shown up at all? Have there been moments where you're like, I need to hold onto this, but I guess I'll let go of this thing to him?
Yeah. Oh yeah. And then same thing for you. Are there things where you're like, I want to go tackle this, but I'll, I'm gonna wait. Is that showing up at all? Oh, yeah. And even some things that, like I have, you know, um, [00:41:00] developed habits and um, uh, just ways that I have, you know, been doing things that need to get broken.
Yeah. And so McCain's been really good at, you know, gently bringing those to, to my, uh, to my front door. So, so we've, you know, I think that's, that's been really good. I, um, here's what I would say. This is what I really would wanna say about this. This whole last two years is that, um, McCain has, he's really made it easy because, um, of his, his response to learning, like, he just knows he needs to learn.
Mm-hmm. And then he is even taken it one step further, which once he learns, he then anticipates. And so [00:42:00] when you see someone anticipating projects next steps, like that's just like, okay, there's an easy release. Yeah. It's just, it's easy. Proves they got it. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so I think that's, and that we have talked about that.
I mean, I'm, you know, it's, it's really cool to be able to fan the flame into your son. I mean, it just is. And so to, to, to. See him take that and run with it. And really from the perspective of like, Hey, I, I, I get to have some input and decision making in the formation of this, having my fingerprints on it moving forward.
Yeah. I'm gonna be alongside, um, but I know there's gonna be a point where I'm just fanning the flame. Not that there's any [00:43:00] pre-programmed like retirement roadmap or I'm trying to get out. Yeah. Like that's not
Steve Graves: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: It's really not there. I'm sure you'll probably tell me when it's like, bro.
Steve Graves: Yeah, yeah.
McKane Martin: People ask you wear me up. People ask me that all the time. I'm sure. Like literally probably once a month. Like, so When's, when's Jeff gonna hang it up? Like,
Michael: when's Jeff, when's
McKane Martin: Jeff gonna the service? I don't think he's gonna, honestly, just because
Michael: we're working together doesn't me, he's like close to the end.
McKane Martin: Yeah. So I mean, I think two things. One. To that point. I, I think the ambition for me, you know, he didn't really touch on it much in, in his, his backstory, but, you know, at, at some point, Martin, Martin Building group was a, was a like 15 person company doing a lot of volume and, and, and he, he had a pretty good operation going.
And um, you know, I think for me it's just an ambition of mine is, is to, to grow a company and, and to lead people. And, and, and he's, he's kind of realized in his later years, I, I can have the same, I can [00:44:00] make the same margin and kind of simplify things. And, um, so I think we're, we're gonna strike the, the find the balance of that.
And he is all for encouraging that, if that's my desire. And, and then secondly on the humility part of it, which I, I can get over my skis a little bit sometimes, but I mean, I'm just, I call him, I'm like, dude, I don't, I don't, what do I do here? Like, I, I have no idea. Like I'm never gonna be above like.
Knowing that I don't asking for help that I don't know what to do. Yeah,
Michael: yeah.
McKane Martin: And, um, and I've only, I mean, I've only screwed up maybe like three big times. Like,
Michael: or keeping count. Yeah.
McKane Martin: Yeah. That have been like, had a conversation I forgot about,
Michael: I forgot about 'em already. I don't, I don't even know what they are
McKane Martin: that require a conversation.
Um, so yeah, that's been pretty, yeah, pretty ebb and flow.
Michael: Are there any moments where you're like, you really want to go some direction or do some project or something and, [00:45:00] and Jeff's just not there? Or you don't, you don't align or you just have to pump the brakes and you're like, I'm just gonna pump the brakes for a little bit even though I wish we could go.
Yeah. Is that showing up at all?
McKane Martin: It does. I've learned that I need to come with a performer and some research before I just fly up there. Go
Michael: get up on that one.
McKane Martin: Yeah. So, um, and, and he, he just, and his current season, like he just doesn't have. He wants to, but he just doesn't have the time to do a lot of the new market research and the Yeah.
What concepts could we bring to this area? What, you know, things are rapidly changing in the development space. Um,
Steve Graves: it's the, it's the dad, it's the dad role. Bring me the dream.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Steve Graves: And the numbers.
McKane Martin: Exactly. And the, exactly. So, and I, I'd nerd out on that kind of stuff. So, you know, studying bigger markets and figuring out what we can do here.
So yeah, whenever I see a project I'm like, Hey, I know you've probably never looked at this piece of property like this, but I think this would work here. He's all, he's all about that. But yeah, we don't, [00:46:00] we can't pull the trigger on everything, so.
Michael: Yeah. That's good.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Michael: Um, and that kind of ties into, we've talked about like some, some concepts and dreams for like, scaling some of this and that kind of goes into the future, you know, what is the, what is the future and the vision of, of Martin Development Group and what does that look like?
Um. There's, and we've talked about this before, there's kind of three seasons that a family business will go through over the course of its lifespan. And these can be a few weeks, or they can be decades long, but at some point you'll kind of move through these gates. The first one is the dad is leading and the sun is just learning.
You're just getting your feet wet, taking your real estate test, figuring out what development looks like, all that stuff. Second season is you're both leading in some capacity, whether that's title related, responsibility related, ownership related, whatever. You're both leading in a real way. And then the third and final season is where the older generation is.
Kile Graves: Some type of shepherd advisor slowing down surfing in [00:47:00] Mexico, calling with advice only or something.
McKane Martin: Yeah.
Michael: Uh, sounds like that's still way out in the future, but where are you in that kind of journey? And then what does the, what does the future look like for MDG?
McKane Martin: I'll let him answer, but I'll say something first.
I think his nature. He's always gonna be having some type of special project going on, even if it's a solo mission for him. And I think he just, that's the way he's built. Like, he's just always gonna be tinkering with stuff and I'm, I'm all for it. Like I don't, I don't need to have some like, you know, passing the baton ceremony.
Like, I, I don't need that. So, um, but yeah. So I think that's, that's kind of cool.
Michael: Yeah.
McKane Martin: But he
Michael: can, so he'll, he'll always be,
McKane Martin: yeah. He can kind of pray. He may have some other thoughts on that, but, and
Michael: it sounds like you're structured to do that.
McKane Martin: Yeah. Which is cool.
Michael: Yeah, I think we're in that, uh, that season too, [00:48:00] um, where I think there's leadership coming from both sides.
Yeah. And, and, and really I think that's, I think it's, it's not really necessarily, we had to have a conversation about it. I think it's just out of a mutual respect for each other. Um. You know, the, I guess this is probably, maybe about six months ago, it really hit me like, I need, I need to release things to McCain that are appropriate.
I don't want, I don't want him to be locked into my formation for the last 30 years as a, as as a custom home builder. Yeah. And you know, I've been through some, some, some extreme cycles already in, in real estate, you know, [00:49:00] given 2008 through 10, um, where we, you know, like McCain had alluded to, you know, we had grown pretty, pretty large there in that, that was kind of that second Walmart push mid two thousands.
And, you know, we quickly contracted. When the market went down and so, you know, that brought a whole new level of conservatism Yeah. To, to my box. And I've really kind of, you know, I, I still keep that box in sight and so I don't, I don't, but I don't want that to, to, you know, press down on him, but transfer as much, you know, process and planning and uh, and understanding balance sheet and lenders and market that I can.[00:50:00]
I know none of us have a crystal ball. So I mean, all I can do is just,
McKane Martin: yeah,
Michael: give him what I have experienced, but at the same time, you know, don't press it down too hard. Um,
Steve Graves: so is the new, is is the new business you guys are building together? How much of it? Well, actually, lemme go different direction first.
I know both of you guys to be very missional. Um, very multi bottom line. You know, it's not just about the money. The money and the economics are important, but it's not only about that. Um, you guys are very community oriented in your, in the way you think about life, et cetera. Um, have you figured out yet what the new entity, how the new entity embraces all of that?
Or are you still trying to work through that? Like, to my, my, the core question is to what degree to what degree does the new development company. Is it embodying a lot of this additional [00:51:00] stuff for you guys, or is that still kinda stuff we're trying to figure out and work on? Because I know, I know that's who you've been your, your whole life that I've known you and I know that's who you have been and are becoming.
And the beauty of owning your own business is you ab you can, you can take some, you know, some levers and expressions, um, to implement and integrate more missional, more community, more faith, more multi bottom line kinds of things. Mm-hmm. So, you know, where, where are you guys in the journey of that thing?
Uh, because I know that's who you are, but, but where are you in the journey of that with the new business?
McKane Martin: That's a great question. I would say that, you know, the, one of the, the cool things about developing, like we, we talk about stewardship a lot, and obviously people, you know, associate that with money or possessions, but.
In our, in our business, it, it's really [00:52:00] easy to, to prioritize a bottom line financially, and you, and you botch a project from a community perspective. Um, so, you know, identifying highest and best use for a piece of land or property and how, you know, that's gonna live on, in Fayetteville through, you know, up to Bentonville.
Um, you know, we're, we're, we're in the long game on a lot of that stuff. So, and then secondly, like all of our, you know, small, we're calling 'em enclave developments that we do most, mostly residential. Some we're kind of moving into a mix of things, but you know, we, we, we want the people that are gonna, that are gonna live there or participate there to, I mean, we're about relationships.
We want to be a part of that in the operation of some of those. Ventures, um, which we do with our, with our student, um, [00:53:00] housing operation. We're very involved in, in those students' lives. And, and, um, and yeah, just kind of being a part of that experience in college. That's great. I mean, they're, you know, a lot of college kids don't really know themselves.
Um, so yeah, that's been cool for both of us, Maddie and, and my mom also. Um, and then, yeah, I mean, I think that from, from an organizational standpoint, like, you know, we've got some people that have been working for us for a long time, 20 years. Um, and yeah, I wanna see them grow. I wanna see them make more money.
I wanna see their families flourish. Like that's, I wanna do projects that are gonna do, set them up to, um, you know, to play to their strong suits. Got it. So
Michael: that's cool.
McKane Martin: Um, yeah, I mean, I think that's.
Michael: That's
McKane Martin: good. Kind of. Definitely, yeah. A big aspect of how we just make decisions and stuff. [00:54:00]
Michael: Yeah. I think that just, you know, the overall, you know, you talk about mission statements and so forth for businesses and life, I think, and I've, I mean, I've learned a lot of this from Steve.
Um, so, you know, the, um,
I think what's, what's most important in our work is that we're, you know, we're getting the opportunity to transfer truth, biblical truth after we're, you know, after we're letting that reconcile ourselves, uh, transfer that in the context of all of our relationships. Um, and so, you know, that helps us form, you know, who we are, how we're gonna do things.
Um, and you know, it's at the end of the day, I mean, you know, we got a, we got a project going, you know, just a few blocks away here, and we got a whole bunch of different trade [00:55:00] partners working on that job site. And, and so, you know, we, we stay in the mix with those guy. We're not, you know, we're not like some office guys that just hammer down, you know, we're like, we were out yesterday, you know, just verifying layouts on, on all these kitchens and bathrooms and, uh, you know, framing punch list just coming alongside helping our superintendent a little bit.
Um. So, you know that I think that's, I think that's part of what, you know, we will end up doing. And you know, McCain already mentioned, you know, the community outward facing side of that. I mean, we, you know, we get the opportunity to rub shoulders with a lot of folks Yeah. In Fayetteville or Northwest Arkansas.
And, you know, that's, that's really, that's really fun to do that. Like, um, it, yeah, it isn't about just the dollar. I mean, it's necessary but to, to, to right place a, a project, whether it's [00:56:00] infill or, you know, a new development. I mean, that's, that's becoming more and more important just because, you know, land gets a little more scarce or, you know, in the case we're in right now, the last, you know, really since 2020, our, you know, the whole residential market has shifted nationally.
It's just different. Yeah. People are living different.
Steve Graves: Yeah.
Michael: Um, people are working different.
Steve Graves: Mm-hmm.
Michael: So. We're, we're not, we're not of a, of a current mission that we're trying to do anything large and, and big development. It's really, you know, more like McCain said, enclave and fill what we can really get our team around and do well and, and provide something for the community.
Gotcha. Makes sense.
McKane Martin: And fully perform, at least for now, you know, from acquisition through planning and horizontal and vertical construction.
Michael: And that's really what allows us to Yeah. To, [00:57:00] to do these small products. 'cause we're fully vertically integrated. I mean, we're, we're from acquisition to operation.
Turn the
McKane Martin: key. Yeah,
Michael: yeah.
McKane Martin: Or yeah, for sale.
Michael: So the, um, maybe to kind of start to land the plane, the, uh. Heart for this series of conversations. There's six dads and sons we're gonna sit down with is, um, the vision would be for more dads to see working with their sons as a chance to amplify their legacy and to disciple their son in the workplace.
To pull them into the professional side of their life and to expose that to their heart and their vision for how life should be lived. And for sons, more sons to see working with their dad as an honor and not just a handout. I mean, you talked about kinda that struggle. I had the same thing and have the same conversation with Esther early on.
So that's kind of the, that's the heartbeat for this. Yeah. More dads to see this as a way to amplify legacy and disciple their sons in the workplace, or sons to see this [00:58:00] as an honor and not a handout. Uh, what would you say, you know, what would you say to another dad and son combo that's starting to think about working together or hadn't thought about it and there's a, there's an opportunity or an on-ramp to do something.
What would you say? How would you speak into that or encourage them? Giving the advice. Yeah, I think, I think you, um,
you know, the, the topic at hand is one thing, you know, business, but I think you really gotta back up and, and identify, you know, where, where really are we or where, you know, where is, where is your, you know, your son individually, you know, in his identity and you know, is there any dysfunction that we need to talk about first?
Like, what do we need to get out on a table? You know, just be, you's gotta be, I mean, be brutally honest. [00:59:00] Like, these are things that concern me, you know, like you guys did the whiteboard on us. We didn't get to do a whiteboard on you guys. Exactly. You've been doing it your whole life. You probably, you're probably right.
We have, you're exactly, we have been.
Yeah. I just got called out. Um, it's like, you know how many whiteboards you whipped out in front of me? Oh yeah. Here you go. A lot. That's right. I think that's just real and really understanding like the, the, the heart of the mission of working together. Um, and I, you know, I'm, I'm speaking from a perspective of a really small business.
Kile Graves: I mean, there's other businesses where there's a lot, there's a lot more structure. Involved in layers.
Michael: Yeah.
And, and I, and I think that that does come into play because, you know, you could have people that are working in that business for 20 years and then you have, you know, 25-year-old son coming in and like, he doesn't have any experience and he is calling shots.
Like I know that there's, that, we don't, unfortunately, we don't really have that [01:00:00] other than with Doug. But I had a, I had just had a, I had a sit down conversation with him. I said, Hey, look, I'm not intending on bringing McCain in here and he's gonna be your boss and he doesn't know what he's doing. Yeah.
So, but I don't know. We, um, I think it's just communication and, and, uh, identifying what the, the dysfunction dysfunctions may be or could be good. And getting those out. Um, and then just a, a clear working relationship. I know one thing that I learned early on was that. You know, like when, even when, you know, when we were, when I was coaching and so forth, I mean, I, you know, I made it very clear.
I was like, Hey, look, I'm your dad number one period when I'm on the field and we've got your whole team there. Like we're, we're in coaching game mode. When I'm off [01:01:00] that field, I'm full dad. And that's, that was really basically the way we e established this. Like, um,
McKane Martin: I call him Jeff at work.
Michael: I'm just kidding.
McKane Martin: Do actually, I mean sometimes
Michael: Yeah.
McKane Martin: Been who I'm talking to.
Michael: That's just kidding. Are there ever like, Hey, this is, this is business partner conversation and hey, this is dad's son conversation. Yeah. Or they all blurred together?
McKane Martin: We, I mean, I intentionally try to not, um, put us in a father-son context and like in front of other.
Partners are just to protect everyone. Sure. Yeah. Really.
Steve Graves: That's smart.
McKane Martin: Um, but yeah, I mean, I think if I was going to tell someone to answer your question, like, you know, what all do I need to know before deciding to work with my dad? Or, I mean, I think really understanding the business first is a start. I mean, a lot of like what you said earlier, like a lot of sons just like, so what do, what, what do you do for work?
Like, um, so yeah, there [01:02:00] were a lot of things I was like, how, how does this work? Like how is this put together? Like from a business perspective? Um, you know, have you always done stuff like this? Like, you know, I had some, a little bit of insight into some things. Um, and then, yeah, on the, like the personal side, um, I mentioned it earlier, it's just, I mean, he is always been approachable, so I, it's always an open door, you know, ask whatever you want.
Like, I'm not gonna. He is never hid anything from me. So, um, yeah, I mean, I think there's a, just a, don't be afraid to ask the hard questions. You know, don't be afraid, even though it's your dad. Don't be afraid to get too personal. I mean, at the end of the day, it's two business partners anyway. Like, um, all, all partners to be successful have to have those transparent conversations, in my opinion, my young opinion at least.
So, yeah, I mean, I think that's,
Michael: that's good. I [01:03:00] think we also established, we, and we, this has been said a few times that we like out loud, like, Hey, we realize we're, we're gonna learn from each other too. This is not just a one way deal.
Steve Graves: That's great.
Michael: And that's, I think that's, that's probably been. More important than we even could have ever thought.
Steve Graves: Yeah. That's very, very important. And the reality is it's, it's very real. It's really true. Yeah,
Michael: yeah.
Steve Graves: You know, like there's just no way that you or I can think about our business the way they would think about our business. We can think about it, but not through their eyes or through their life experiences or the way they would see the market or the opportunities or whatever.
So that's a real, that's, that's a great one, Jeff. Great one to end on.
McKane Martin: I think the other thing, one last thing, like a more like a family angle. Like, you know, I've got two other brothers, they're not involved at all in our business. Um, or my sister in any way. So, you know, I, I had a lot [01:04:00] of. I think just encouragement from them.
Like they were, they weren't like, oh, you're gonna go work for dad, or like, whatever. They were just like, dude, do it. Like, that's cool. Someone's, someone's gotta do it. Like that was kind of like the,
Steve Graves: someone's gotta help the
McKane Martin: dude out.
Michael: Somebody's got a roll, been in the
Steve Graves: wheelchair one day. Come on man.
McKane Martin: Well, backdoor conversation like, all right, rock, bear, scissors, who's gonna, he's got it.
That's awesome. So that was, that was cool too. Yeah. And we both have desire to get them in the fold, whether it's just from a financial perspective. Yeah. At some point. Um, as, as well. So yeah, we wanted to, to yeah. Be for the family and stuff, so
Michael: that's great. Well, uh, excited for, for you guys and it's been fun to watch you kind of start this together and
McKane Martin: excited for the future
Michael: of what y'all are gonna do.
And um, yeah. Thanks for coming to do [01:05:00] this.