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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in [00:01:00] Sorority. Thanks for being here. I'm Sonia and I'm with my sister in sorority, actually my sister in law, Kathleen. Kathleen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:08] Kathleen: I'm good. I am in your kitchen right now.
[00:01:11] we couldn't record in the same room together, but it's nice to be here. How are you doing?
[00:01:16] Sonia: I'm good. I'm really happy you guys are here and that my niece is here and that it's spring and we saw some irises come up yesterday. So things are good. and Joining us today is Samantha Barnes. She's a registered psychotherapist with a background as a child and youth counselor, and she has been practicing in this field for over 20 years. She's here to talk to us about the complex relationships of addiction and family dynamics, and to help us understand the ways in which relationships are affected by addiction, and how families can navigate the tumultuous waters of recovery together.
[00:01:57] Kathleen: Yes. And I am very excited for [00:02:00] today's episode because we're going to discuss the challenges families face when addiction becomes a part of their story and the impact it has on individual members and most importantly, the pathways to healing. Samantha's going to share insights into the roles of communication, understanding and support in the recovery process and offer guidance to those who are walking this difficult path, which I consider myself part of
[00:02:23] Sonia: so whether you're someone who's been touched by addiction, a loved one seeking to support someone in their journey to recovery, this episode will offer some valuable perspectives and meaningful advice.
[00:02:36] Kathleen: Without further ado, let's welcome Samantha to the show. Welcome! We're so happy to have you here.
[00:02:41] Samantha: Thank you ladies. That was a wonderful introduction and I'm very happy to be here.
[00:02:46] Sonia: We are really excited, so Sam,
[00:02:48] could you tell us a little bit about your professional background and how you became interested in family dynamics?
[00:02:53] Samantha: absolutely. So, my journey started many, many years ago as I aged myself. And [00:03:00] yes, I've been practicing in the mental health field for, well, I guess, 25 or so years now. so I started out Uh, working mainly with children and youth in a variety of different settings and school settings and building social skills and, working with, you know, kids that were struggling with higher needs, complex issues.
[00:03:26] as I got further into my career, what I started to notice was The children were not coming to me with issues that they had created on their own you know, and managing it on their own was too much. And so my interest in really understanding family dynamics and how.
[00:03:45] Family issues, not only parenting, but, you know, all the extended, uh, community support and things going on for that individual child affects both their behavior and [00:04:00] can do some predictions about how well that child does in life really became of interest to me. And I might. My work sort of shifted more over to the family work side of things.
[00:04:12] And, I just got so much, I think more satisfaction of understanding that when you change a family dynamic, even on a very small level. The ripple effect onto the children and, the entire family support system is, is quite impactful, more so than working individually.
[00:04:34] Kathleen: so you raise this is really good. The impact on the family is, you know, it's going to be broad. So what is the impact that addiction has on kids and families? Like how does it change that dynamic or the environment?
[00:04:45] Samantha: great question. And I do want to say that anything I say today is going to be a little bit of a generalization. So, of course, every family dynamic is different. Every family situation is different. And everybody's outcome is different, [00:05:00] so when I speak, it is based on some of the things we see quite common and a lot of, but please know that everybody's story is, is unique and how it plays out.
[00:05:12] Um, but what we, what we see a lot of in families where addiction plays a role is. Specifically for children is the impact on them is often that they have to take on a role that sometimes it can be a little bit parentified, that they're not quite secure in being just a child per se, there may be. A lot going on in the household as far as secrecy, lying, conflict, lots of things that a child doesn't necessarily have the skills or understanding of how to navigate and children, especially under 10, I might even say 12 really feel everything.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Is about them. So younger children will take this very much on as I've done something wrong and I need to fix this. So if something's wrong with mom or dad, they're trying to figure out what it is that they did. wrong and how they can fix that. which again, kind of blurs the line of parent and child.
[00:06:26] we see a lot of this carry over to kids. you know, bringing things to school as far as maybe they're not sleeping well, maybe things in the home are a bit, off and so they're not sleeping while they're coming to school, tired, unfocused, distracted, which can affect peer relationships, obviously academics, so it, it really does, again, when we talk about all the systems that it really does affect.
[00:06:56] It doesn't just stay in the home. If something's going on inside the home with mum and [00:07:00] dad, it's near impossible to keep it there. Not that it's healthy if that was the case anyways, but it almost always fans itself out into the other places in which the child is participating in.
[00:07:14] Kathleen: a ripple effect.
[00:07:16] Samantha: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:07:17] There's no containment with children. There really isn't with adults either. We do contain it a little bit better and we can, have certain things, but kids just don't have that ability.
[00:07:28] Sonia: so my clients are usually listening to the podcast and I can hear them saying, yeah, that's fine. That's for somebody who. Is on hard drugs. my clients are usually moms and they have a wine habit.
[00:07:41] And so they're like, well, I'm going to work. I'm coming home and making dinner. Then I'm drinking a couple bottles of wine and passing out. So this doesn't really apply to me. And I can hear them saying that. This isn't, this doesn't apply to me.
[00:07:52] Samantha: And I would actually say that who you're talking about is mostly who I would be interacting and [00:08:00] seeing as well, right? So regardless of, you know, the idea that you can still be a functioning member of society does not exclude you. from having those same effects at home with your children and on yourself.
[00:08:21] Kathleen: So what challenges do kids usually face that are in those situations forming healthy relationships with, in, or outside of the family?
[00:08:31] Samantha: I think that, uh, communication is often not the best in families where there's active addiction. That is occurring and so if that is not being led, if that's not being shown, how to effectively communicate with each other, how to manage emotions, again, dealing with things like lying or hiding things, [00:09:00] then these things are going to be absorbed.
[00:09:03] And carried on and modeled by the children, likely in other areas as well, and creates a lot of sometimes, self doubt and insecurity with children too, about they don't know what they can say or what they can't say about what's going on at home, which puts them in a precarious if there are other adults that are maybe sensing something's going on and asking questions, the child probably feels a need to protect their family because they obviously love their family despite the difficulties going on.
[00:09:39] so there just tends to be some of, I would say communication and effective communication, healthy communication, as well as healthy boundaries are the big themes that we see.
[00:09:51] Sonia: What about self esteem? I know you touched on it.
[00:09:55] Samantha: Yeah. And, and I think self esteem, can come from a variety of [00:10:00] different reasons. So Again, if there's a very high active addiction and.care for the child is lacking, we can see things like, hygiene, uh, proper nutrition, again, proper sleep, things like that. So if the child is not having all of their needs met at home, if there's a parent inactive addiction, that's obviously going to play itself out, at school and with peers, often with, teasing or just the child himself or herself feeling uncomfortable.
[00:10:34] but even if there is not that sort of neglectful part, again, there's just this sense often in active addiction homes with this level of secrecy and self esteem is affected in the sense of kids are never quite sure of what they can say. What they can share, can they bring friends over to the house?
[00:10:59] Are things [00:11:00] at home unpredictable? sometimes going into other people's homes and seeing that function very differently can cause a lot of insecurity as well. So, we definitely see the self esteem. in a lot of kids be, and I don't want to say it's not necessarily, you don't necessarily look at that kid and go, Oh, they're lacking self esteem or lacking self confidence.
[00:11:27] A lot of times it's very internalized and doesn't come out and they keep it internalized as almost this self protective factor and, and it'll come out in other ways that aren't. necessarily screaming my self esteem is low, right?
[00:11:43] Kathleen: know, one of the things Sam, I see is I see couples and many of the couples I see, they grew up with an alcoholic as a parent. And so you talked about parentification and so some of the, Uh, adaptive behaviors they [00:12:00] developed as a child in order to protect themselves that continues into adulthood and into relationships.
[00:12:07] And then it is no longer adaptive. it's harmful. so I wanted to ask, you know, what are the risks and the longterm effects of children who, uh, may face growing up, in a household that has addiction.
[00:12:23] Samantha: Well, I think a buzzword, codependency, right? So we see a lot of kids that grow up, um, really having to deal with the effects of being codependent and then continuing on. In their young adult life, teens, young adult, adulthood, carrying on those roles with their partners of getting in unhealthy relationships, and having that very codependent role.
[00:12:46] I see a lot of perfectionism come out too, with my adult clients that, similarly you're talking about. that have grown up with, um, alcohol or drugs affecting them, in [00:13:00] their family as a child is having that desire to have everything be very perfect and a lot of people pleasing.
[00:13:09] Kathleen: A lot of people pleasing. And do you see also this comes along with perfectionism too, but needing to control, like have exert a lot again, like pebbles therapy. Right. So I see that from that perspective, but like the needing to control, um, things that are beyond their control.
[00:13:26] Samantha: absolutely. Right. So they're, they're often their nervous systems have never really been regulated. And they're carrying this on again into adulthood, into their relationships ongoing and they don't feel safe. And it isn't always necessarily their current partner that's making them feel unsafe. Right. But there is this sense of, I didn't have it modeled to me what it felt like to be heard, to be validated, to, not come home and have things be very explosive.
[00:13:57] And that idea [00:14:00] that if I just control all of these pieces, then I can. Feel safe and know exactly what's going to happen. And of course, we know that doesn't really
[00:14:12] Kathleen: Doesn't. No, it doesn't.
[00:14:16] so we, we really want to talk about the nuances of sobriety for parents in terms of, those unique responsibilities of parenting and how it can affect the sobriety or the recovery journey. So Sam, in your experience, what are big hurdles for parents who are trying to juggle sobriety and raising
[00:14:37] Samantha: quite a few. I think that being able to have, I'm going to say the word adequate, and I don't even like saying adequate because it needs to be more than adequate, but just being able to give yourself adequate self care during your sobriety journey. Is so important and any of us who are mothers in the best of circumstances [00:15:00] know how difficult.
[00:15:02] It is to take care of yourself and so if you are on this journey of wanting to stay sober, it's almost an impossible task to juggle all of the things because your self care, how you treat yourself, how you care for yourself, how you prioritize yourself in your needs during, certain parts of this journey especially.
[00:15:28] are really going to dictate so much because the more you're able to give to yourself. The more you're going to be able to give to your children and it's not the other way around,
[00:15:40] right?
[00:15:40] Kathleen: that again. The more you're able to give to yourself, the more you're able to give to your children. I feel like this needs to be heard. Yes. Please hear this, listeners who are parents, please.
[00:15:56] Samantha: because it's really society, and don't get me on [00:16:00] a soapbox about Patriarchal society and all of the things that we struggle with and I'm gonna focus mostly on women here But it doesn't mean that this can't be true to men as well but parenting is a thankless job.
[00:16:16] It is a difficult job. Again, in the very best of circumstances. And we are somehow, society expects women to constantly be. at their best, but we're never allowed to do anything to put us at our best because if you put yourself first, you are told you are selfish and so your kids needs are always having to be prioritized.
[00:16:48] I'm not suggesting kids needs don't need, don't matter. They do. But it's the annoying analogy of you have to put your own mask on first in that airplane before you can [00:17:00] support anybody else. So if you're constantly pouring out of this bucket that is depleted, it's just not going to transfer over. Your kids are not going to get the best version of yourself.
[00:17:13] They're going to get the tired, exhausted, burnt out, unable to give any more and and that cycle continues. You're exhausted burnt out. You can't take care of it. And then we just sit and we spin and we wonder why we can't get anywhere,
[00:17:31] Kathleen: feel this, Sam, at the heart of my soul, and so it speaks to me so truly, and it really relates to sobriety because we've talked about for so many episodes how important self care is and those practices in order to have sobriety. So if you're a mom, let's say, or a dad, but if you're a mom, I'm going to speak from that experience.
[00:17:53] And you don't have those self care practices in place You don't feel like you can put yourself first and then [00:18:00] you're like, oh i'm gonna get sober And you don't have that or don't prioritize that it's it's gonna be a challenge, right?
[00:18:07] Samantha: It is. It just absolutely is because one of the most important parts arguably about sobriety is Managing your triggers, right? And, and how do you do that if you're burnt out and on edge all the time? You're going to navigate towards what you're coping skill has been the easiest one to gravitate towards and grab, right?
[00:18:34] And my challenge is that we really have to, especially for women, redefine what selfish looks like and what self care looks like. Self care isn't running out and getting a pedicure, although I love that. And that's great. And there's value to all that, but self care is putting yourself to bed and getting enough sleep.
[00:18:52] It is. Making sure that you eat during the day. It is being self compassionate [00:19:00] and not holding yourself to some unattainable standard. It is reaching out to your sisters, your friends, your family, your Family that you create for support and saying I'm having a really difficult time right now I really need you know, can anybody make me some meals this week?
[00:19:20] Can somebody come and take the kids for a couple hours? Oh, I noticed you're going to the water park this weekend Can I you know? Offer to pay for my kids and you take them and I'd be happy,we really have to start creating The ability to reach out and say, this is what I need, how can I get that support?
[00:19:44] Kathleen: what you know, I think this is a key learning is How do we, we have to learn how to reach out and ask for help when we need support. What are some other ways that sober parents can handle stress or triggers around parenting? And I know this can be individual [00:20:00] based on the circumstances, but what, what would you say some of those ways could be?
[00:20:04] Mm
[00:20:05] Samantha: And again, it's going to maybe differ depending on how old your kids are as well. but I'm going to say. creating routines in your home, right? Whether they're little or, it's a little harder as they get older, but you can still have, routines in place so that there's an expectation that the family just knows this is the time we're doing this.
[00:20:28] This is the time we're doing that. You know, create some space for yourself in the middle of the day, where you can, or at the end of the day, where you're carving out some sacred time for yourself, and it doesn't have to be 2 hours, any parent of young kids knows you're not getting a 2 hour break, especially if you're a parent.
[00:20:46] A solo parent or you have a, the other parent is away or working weird hours. That's not going to happen, but I will really push the women I work with to say you can carve 15 [00:21:00] minutes out of your day. To sit quietly and do a meditation or a mindfulness exercise or just sit and quiet and put your favorite song onthe radio or sit in your car and take a So I think and again regular bedtime routine sticking with that so that you know Your kids are going to bed at 8 o'clock and even if you've had the longest roughest day You know, at 830, everybody's out and you can carve out some time for yourself to do whatever is needed for yourself in that bit of space.
[00:21:34] So I think routines, are really important. routines, boundaries, consistency. Um, super, super valuable and just helping you manage certain things. it's really important people get outside and go for a walk. Like I used to kind of annoy me sometimes, people would be like, go for a walk, but I've never gone for a walk and come back and felt worse,
[00:21:58] Kathleen: Exactly.
[00:21:59] Samantha: I would [00:22:00] say 90 percent of the time I feel better even when I don't want to admit it. And at worse, I just feel the same. Right. And so whether again, you're solo, whether you've got little kids, you can throw them in the stroller with a snack, just get out and go for that walk, bundle them up. If it's chilly, don't let the weather stop you from going, make it a game, do a scavenger hunt, you know, whatever it is.
[00:22:23] I just think there's something to be said for. Even a short 15, 20 minute walk that just allows you to release, some of that. Stress
[00:22:35] Kathleen: think that's so true. I, one of the things this 15 minute, let's say break in the middle of the day or walk outside. I call it the sacred pause because it is so, it is sacred. It is so sacred and we need it. And it is a form of, it is a beautiful form of self care that actually, if it's just 15 minutes, it has such an impact, right?
[00:22:55] It does have such an impact.
[00:22:58] Samantha: And it's doable. [00:23:00] 90 percent of the time, 15 minutes is doable for everybody if you prioritize it. And I cannot say that enough because if you do not prioritize it, you will not find the time. There will be other things to do. So, it has to be moved up into that, this is a non negotiable for me, I have to get out of my house for 15 minutes a day and go for this walk.
[00:23:26] And then my pushback, if anybody can't for whatever reason get out of the house. You know, the house is again, put some music on and do a dance party in your living room,your teenagers will be annoyed if you have teenagers, but, if you've got little kids, they can join in with you, but there is something therapeutic.
[00:23:43] What it is, is movement movement. And any kind of movement, walking, dancing, swaying, anything like that, it helps remove blocked energy in your body and stagnant energy. And it just gives you a little bit of an endorphin rush. And so [00:24:00] any way that you can create that for yourself can be super helpful in managing the high trigger stressful moment.
[00:24:08] Kathleen: Thank you. Yeah, that is so good.
[00:24:10] Sonia: Sam, what is your advice for families to help build a strong and supportive environment around a parent's sobriety?
[00:24:19] Samantha: So if we're looking at how outside members can support, I think this is so valuable. One, I think you have to put your own ego aside there and stop deciding what is going to be best for that person and instead just genuinely ask. How can I be supportive? How can I be helpful? What do you need from me? Simple question as opposed to saying, telling somebody, I think what a lot of people dealing with, again, especially women, are constantly being told what they need to do, how they need to do it, and the ability for your support [00:25:00] system to just come to you and say, hey, I really want to help. Please tell me how I can best do that.
[00:25:07] Just opens the door for so much again, healthier communication. So just being open to hearing that. If that person is really struggling and not able to tell you in the moment, which can happen, then again, use your best judgment. Come in and say like, if it looks like that mother is overwhelmed with young children and everything going on, Pick a time that you can come and pick up the kids and take them out and give that person a break.
[00:25:37] Ask if you can go grocery shopping for them, right? Something like that. I think that really, just showing up and being present and Not pushing your agenda on them, but just really saying, I care about you and I love you and I see that you're struggling
[00:25:59] Just show [00:26:00] up that way and open.
[00:26:01] Sonia: Yeah, I love that,and I say that to, ask, right? And so, even with me, I don't have kids, but when peopleask about how to support my sobriety, it's like, just ask. If you're worried about, even dumb things, like, people are like, is it okay if I bring wine to your house?
[00:26:16] thank you for asking. Yeah.
[00:26:19] Samantha: Thank you for asking. Absolutely. I think we have to just give people the opportunity to Guide us, right? And it's okay to say, Hey, I wasn't sure if this was okay. I wasn't sure, I know you're not drinking. Is it okay? Would that make you feel uncomfortable? And then I encourage that person to be honest.
[00:26:38] If it is going to make them uncomfortable, say that, say, you know, I'm not ready for that right now. Really appreciate you asking.
[00:26:45] Sonia: We really want to move into how to talk to your children about addiction, sobriety, and recovery. It's something we have struggled with a lot in our family, so we really want [00:27:00] to learn healthy age appropriate approaches. So I have three nieces, 9, 17, and 19. That are children of an alcoholic parent.
[00:27:12] So how do we start that conversation with our children in a way that's not threatening?
[00:27:17] Samantha: Uh, again, such a good question. And again, being respectful to everybody's. Home and cultural beliefs and backgrounds and that everybody's going to navigate this, with a little bit of nuance differently, and that's okay. But I think the best advice I can give is I think people don't realize how much kids know from a very young age.
[00:27:39] So they may not be able to articulate everything into words. But children are masters of reading energy and knowing when something is off and not right. So pretending like everything is okay when it really isn't [00:28:00] is so harmful because it actually then challenges that child's intuition to be like, well, I don't feel like everything's okay.
[00:28:11] But you're telling me everything's okay, or you're not telling me anything at all can create a lot of self doubt and internal conflict for that child. So, being able to openly communicate, like you said, age appropriately is so, so valuable in just validating for that child that they're not, Their intuition is right.
[00:28:37] That the energy they're reading is correct. That something isn't right. Mommy is sick. Mommy, daddy is sick. Daddy is struggling with something, right? And again, we don't need to scare little children and give them big words and things that they don't fully comprehend, but it is okay to say that a parent is It's [00:29:00] ill, not feeling well, struggling with something, need some rest right now.
[00:29:04] Those sorts of things and lots of reassurance that it has nothing to do with the child. The child hasn't done anything wrong, right?and I wouldn't get into the over reassurance that everything's going to be okay either because I think that becomes very tricky because we don't really know if everything's going to be okay.
[00:29:28] we can reassure mommy still loves you. Right. Mommy cares about you. We're keeping you safe. You can reassure safety, but I would move away from everything's going to be okay all the time and instead allow space for Children are allowed to be upset.
[00:29:48] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:29:50] Samantha: Things are allowed to be wrong in a family.
[00:29:52] kids are allowed to feel sad. And so allowing our kids and allowing your kids to have emotions about [00:30:00] the things going on is super, super important.
[00:30:02] Kathleen: how can we help children express their, their feelings about a family member's addiction? I have a child that doesn't love to express her emotions and it is like pulling teeth to get those emotions out, which sorry for her. She's got a mom as a therapist, so I don't let that lie.
[00:30:19] But
[00:30:20] How do you help a child express their emotions?
[00:30:24] Samantha: I think we just allow the space for it to happen. When you're ready to talk about it. If you're ready to talk about it, this is a safe space to do so. And you're going to prove that because they'll test you, right? And they're going to show up at some point and say something. And I think our job as a parent has to be very clear sometimes to not fix whatever's happening.
[00:30:48] Our knee jerk reaction is to reassure and fix things. And instead, really focusing on, for children, validating. Yeah, it does sound Like that would be a really scary thing. It does [00:31:00] sound like, That would be really hard to navigate and wow It sounds like you're really sad if you just want some space today to sit in your room and and cry that's okay Right.
[00:31:12] can we go for a drive something like that, right? I want us to get out of the way of trying to again over reassure. Everything's okay. You don't need to be sad No, you do do need to be sad. You do need to be angry You can go scream and punch your pillow. You can go turn on some loud music and dance around like a maniac you can and I think for little kids to not just little kids actually Teenagers as well having different ways if they're not talkers to express those emotions art supplies music certain movies, just other ways for them to process things is It's really important because not every kid is going to be capable to come and talk [00:32:00] exactly about how they feel.
[00:32:01] And while we can continue to encourage that and create space for them to do it, there are alternatives, right? Physical activity. Having them out in the community doing quote unquote normal kid things, right? Keeping their balance of what's going on is super important.
[00:32:21] Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:32:22] Samantha: And I also want to add when we're talking about, we talked about little kids there, but for teenagers, again, I think a lot of parents are afraid if they talk about drugs, alcohol, what's going on, they're going to create. And again, what we know to be true is the opposite. When we hide it, when we don't talk about it, it creates the opposite effect.
[00:32:46] So it's okay to say, This is what's happening. I think it's important that we talk about the genetic disposition that can happen and not to scare them [00:33:00] into this is going to happen to you. But hey, you're 16 now. You're going to parties. Do you know, right? Alcoholism runs in our family. Grandpa was an alcoholic.
[00:33:09] Uncle Joe was an alcoholic, I struggled with that. So, Right? How do I help keep you safe and make good decisions? Because your teenager is probably going to experiment with alcohol. That's actually a normal healthy developmental place for them to be. But how do you help them identify?
[00:33:30] Hey, when doesn't it feel good? What things do I need to look out for? How can you come and talk to me if you went overboard and you're not feeling safe?
[00:33:41] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:33:41] Samantha: Right, creating that safe flow of conversation with your teens, I think is so, so important because the reality is most of them are going to go out and experiment and they need to know the safe ways to do that.
[00:33:56] Kathleen: And so when is that, and again, I know this is going to be [00:34:00] individual based on a teenager or a child, but when should a parent start having those kind of conversations with a child or teenager?
[00:34:11] Samantha: I think the earlier you can start the better, because the earlier you start to talk about these things. The more natural it becomes, the less awkward it becomes, the less pressure y it, if you're having this conversation with your 16 year old for the first time, hey, if that's your opportunity, go for it.
[00:34:28] I'm not saying don't, but if they've already heard you talk openly about managing alcohol use, about alcohol abuse, about the dangers, things like that. From a young age, again, age appropriately, right? It's going to be much easier to dive into those conversations as they get old. So, my feedback is always, it's never going to feel super comfortable as a parent.
[00:34:56] We are required to have uncomfortable conversations with our
[00:34:59] Kathleen: [00:35:00] hmm.
[00:35:01] Samantha: Right. And there is no perfect script. You're going to look at where is your child at? Where are you at? What are you comfortable sharing either about your own journey or, whatever's going on in your family members journey. And.
[00:35:17] again, in a way that feels best for you, have those conversations and don't have them as they're walking out the door
[00:35:26] Kathleen: Right.
[00:35:27] Samantha: to go to their party.
[00:35:28] Kathleen: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mm hmm.
[00:35:32] Samantha: sit and say, Hey, I need to have a conversation with you. I'm feeling super uncomfortable about it. I feel super awkward. So can you bear with me?
[00:35:43] Right? Can you give me 10 minutes to just kind of power through this and trust that I'm doing my best here? Right? I don't think, again, we give kids enough credit for how Patient and how loving and how kind they can be. If we give them the opportunity to do [00:36:00] so
[00:36:00] Kathleen: That's great. I think those are really valuable lessons, for us, including myself to take away in terms of having those conversations in an age appropriate way and that it shouldn't be hidden. it's definitely not in our household, but, you know, again, age appropriate.
[00:36:16] and and again, removing the idea of you have to do this perfectly right? You can experiment if the 1st conversation was a disaster, although I would challenge to say what a disaster is. Then you learn from that. And the next time you do it a little bit differently. Right? But I think the most important thing to me is keep that conversation going and flowing.
[00:36:40] Samantha: Not every day. But finding times to have those bigger conversations is super important. And it will pay off. And especially for teenagers, they need to know that regardless of the choices they make, because your teens will likely make bad choices, That's how they learn that they know [00:37:00] that it's okay to come to you and communicate with you about that bad choice.
[00:37:05] Because bad choices turn into worse choices when they have nowhere safe to go
[00:37:12] Kathleen: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:37:14] Sonia: So, what's the best way to explain the concept of addiction as, should we be describing it as a disease and that it's not a choice or a moral failing? what is the best way to describe addiction to kids?
[00:37:32] Samantha: it's such a good question, I think when you are dealing witha severe addiction in your family. It is important to give. Perspective on what it is. It is a disease. Nobody wakes up one day and goes, I think I'm going to choose to, put this terrible thing onto myself and to my family, and
[00:37:56] put myself at risk of losing, all these things that I love. So [00:38:00] I'm being able to explain that, yes, it is a disease, much like, we would talk about any other disease, diabetes, cancer, whatever, that there is a part of it. That has, that is uncontrollable in the beginning, that often is uncontrollable in the beginning stages that people generally aren't actively choosing to be addicted.
[00:38:29] There is this mix of something going on inside them that makes drugs or alcohol really take over all of their good thinking and good choices. Where I then go off that path is when we're actively seeking sobriety or actively seeking a harm reduction model. Our choices [00:39:00] do matter, right? So while the beginning of the addiction tends to be a little bit more out of control when we're making a decision to get sober and to change our way of being, those choices matter, and we do have the ability to choose something different.
[00:39:26] Not easy choices, and there are things that are going to set you up for success, like again a support system, having goals, having, people around you, again having self compassion, self care, all of those things.
[00:39:41] alcohol and drug addiction is a complex thing that has a multitude of factors. That play out and in the perfect storm, it blows
[00:39:57] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:39:59] Samantha: we [00:40:00] become self aware, and know we have to choose something different because of our. addiction than we get to move those choices along the way to help us.
[00:40:13] Kathleen: hmm. Mm
[00:40:14] Sonia: Yeah. I my last question is how do you feel about mommy wine culture? Do you think it's just a, a mask for alcoholism or gray area drinking? How do you feel about the labeling of using alcohol as a crutch for parenting stress as mommy wine culture?
[00:40:37] Samantha: Yeah, it's a very interesting, it's an interesting gray area for sure because I think there are lots of people that can enjoy a couple of glasses of wine a couple of times a week and it doesn't have a negative effect on themselves or their families. Based on [00:41:00] what I see, I think there's many more people that that actually does more harm than good. That it does have an effect on themselves, on their health, on their mental well being. On, how they parent, how they take care of themselves, how they function in their relationships, how they function for work the next day, it's become this acceptable way to cope,
[00:41:28] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:41:29] Samantha: but in reality, over long periods of time.
[00:41:34] It's really not a healthy way to cope with anything. And again, I think it goes back to our initial discussion around all these expectations that we have on women, that we have on mothers to show up, to be a certain way to do all the things. we can't uphold that. And so we're constantly looking for ways to manage that, to manage those expectations.
[00:41:59] [00:42:00] On ourselves and really what we need to be challenging is. That expectation not managing it.
[00:42:06] Kathleen: see it so abundantly, like even in mom Facebook groups and how moms get together. I think that's something with, with moms who are, again, I'm saying moms, but who become, who are on the sobriety journey is a lot of moms get together to have wine, right? a lot of them get together to have wine.
[00:42:26] It's like, oh my gosh, can't wait to have that glass of it's a thing. And then so. There's that parent who's sober and it's like, is that person no longer a part of that group? Are they now even more isolated than they were before? Yeah.
[00:42:44] Samantha: And that's where that whole finding your support system, and I think often as we move, as people move into, a place of sobriety. A lot of their support systems will have to
[00:42:58] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:42:59] Samantha: [00:43:00] and that's partly sad and, but really important if, I mean, it would be great if you have that mommy group and that's what you've been doing and they're a supportive group to you for you to say, can we shift to one day a week, instead we meet coffee at, you know, Starbucks.
[00:43:18] And do that instead, is that possible? and I think to not be afraid to say why, right? Because if those are truly your people,that you love and you think love you, their answer should be, absolutely we will support you on this. I'm not saying they can't also have their wine night. Can it have some balance to it? And can you advocate for yourself to have other options? And if their answer to that is no, then that's where you have to decide. Is this really a healthy place me to be right now? And if not, how do I create a different environment for myself? Because there are lots of mommies out there.[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] That don't want to do the wine night and maybe they need permission to step out of it as well.
[00:44:06] Sonia: when I talk to my clients and, you know, we'll talk about doing new activities as they're trying to get sober and I'll say, what about a book club? And they're like, everybody drinks at book club. I'm like, what about, what about yoga, like community yoga? And Kathleen was telling me people drink mimosas at yoga.
[00:44:23] Kathleen: had wanted to go, like there's this great group of women, um, near me who have this yoga, they go on yoga retreats, but it is like a drinking festival. And so I've never gone because it's just like. That's not, I'm not going to do that.
[00:44:38] Samantha: It's so funny, my art therapist that I work with, she's, she does workshop because a lot of people will do the paint
[00:44:45] and sip, know, again, things like that. And so, she's been doing workshops and stuff out of our office that are, completely alcohol free. And, her sip and paints are sip your coffee and sip [00:45:00] your tea.
[00:45:00] Right? So we provide tea and things like that. So it does require work. It does require looking deeper. I'm in Barry. we have a wonderful, store, like a community store downtown is called the blueberry moon.She sells all these beautiful like knickknacks and things and from local artists, but now she's moved over.
[00:45:21] So she does like a crafting. Circle once a week, you just come bring whatever craft you're working on and you sit down.
[00:45:30] Sonia: I love that!
[00:45:31] Samantha: It's like such a little little, you know, I always go on such a little little daisy, but there's people there from like 20 to 60 that show up and you know, she's, she's got this little community growing.
[00:45:44] So there are places out there. That, was just my long way around to say there are places out there. Sometimes you have to really dig. And try a couple of things out and get really, again, clear about what it is you're looking for in a community. [00:46:00] And don't stop until you find it because it's out there.
[00:46:04] Kathleen: I think that's a great final word from you, Sam. I think that's a great, like, don't give up and you can find those places.
[00:46:13] So Sam, you're from Barrie, Ontario, so you are licensed to practice in, in Canada and Ontario specifically, right? And you're, you're a practice owner? Yeah.
[00:46:27] Samantha: 20 years of working in community mental health, I went into private practice for myself about, six years ago. And, uh, yeah, have grown a, a small but mighty little group practice here in Barrie. And I have a group of really lovely Clinicians that they're just so amazing, uh, that work alongside me and yeah.
[00:46:50] So our little practice is Sweet Spot Family Counseling and we serve women and children and families,that are [00:47:00] experiencing, mental health, struggles, but also I'm really trying to push people more and more these days to. Don't wait till it's a struggle come in and let's focus on how we do preventative self care, how we do preventative work in our parenting, how we do preventative work in our families.
[00:47:23] we will absolutely support and help anybody coming in with struggles and that's, a large part of who comes in. But I really think again, we try and do workshops. We try and do. All sorts of things that just, again, remind people that it's okay to prioritize your mental health and well being before anything goes wrong.
[00:47:45] That's how we stay healthy and strong.
[00:47:48] Sonia: Sam, thanks so much for joining us today. I know we learned a lot and that our listeners are taking away so much of your wisdom and we will link to Sam's Practice, SweetSpotCounseling. [00:48:00] com in our show notes. I'm
[00:48:03] Samantha: much, ladies. I had so much
[00:48:04] Kathleen: Thank you.
[00:48:05] Wow. That was such a good conversation with Sam Barnes. what resonated with you the most Sonia?
[00:48:11] Sonia: so I come at this from a really different perspective. I'm not a parent, I'm an aunt, and, and I'm in recovery and so what resonated with me is that. teenagers are going to drink and I think my feeling about my nieces has always been like, don't drink.
[00:48:27] Just don't drink. Just skip that part. I don't want you to have to go through what I went through. Let's just eliminate that. And I know now that's not realistic and that to have realistic conversations about drinking and drugs. those conversations are more important than what my tendency is, which is to say like, well, don't drink, just don't drink.
[00:48:50] So yeah. What resonated with you?
[00:48:55] Kathleen: Well, so much of what she said resonated with me, and I think, you know, what [00:49:00] really resonated with me is that you, as a, as a parent, you have to really take care of yourself and prioritize your health, or else you can't prioritize your children, and I, that really rings true for me, as well as, you know, being able to ask for help,
[00:49:17] in terms of having a supportive community around you That is also something that resonated with me a great episode. I learned so much
[00:49:27] Sonia: I know me too. I thought she was awesome.
[00:49:29] Kathleen: Yeah,
[00:49:30] Thank you for listening to Sisters in Sobriety, and we'll see you next week where our guest will be Jonathan Hunt Glassman, who is the founder of OR. And OR is a service that provides access to medical support for people who are ready to change their relationship with alcohol.