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Life creates many in-between moments.
Whether those in-betweens create grief, sorrow, heartache, or pain, also know that joy, refinement, hope, and transformation are just around the corner.
Dinine Sig wants to accompany you in all of these in-between times–because she herself has seen many. The Space In-
Between is your opportunity to connect, refresh, and renew yourself. Dinine hosts conversations that will carry you through all of life’s significant moments–all of which will help you feel empowered, encouraged, and understood.
Remember, there is magic found in the in-betweens.
TSIB 3-4 Transcript
Dinine: [00:00:00] Hey, just wanted to jump in and let you all know that the B three lab is happening March 13th in Indianapolis. Come join us. Details below in the show notes. I met with Rick and Carol Wagner recently and it was a great conversation, but I wanted to give just a short note of context here. Rick Wagner is a permanent deacon at St.
Pius Parish and he is also the president of Garrin Catholic High School. He and his wife Carol, have been married for 39 years. They have a beautiful family consisting of four children and 10 grandchildren. 10. They have dedicated their lives to service faith and community. A side note, Rick grew up at St.
Pius and now gives back through his ministry leadership and care for others.
Carol Wagner: Hi friends, I'm Dinine. I'm the host of this show, the Space In
Between. I'm a mom, I'm an attorney, I'm an author, and I'm also a widow. We're gonna get into some really important stuff
Dinine: [00:01:00] today and I'm really grateful that you're here and you're gonna be sitting with us on the space in between.
So I just wanna say welcome back to the space in between. To my listeners, I am your host Anine, and today is a special day for me. My guests are two people who touch my life long before they even knew it. Um, I first encountered Rick through his reflections and scripture, and you put things on Facebook versus.
Scripture reflections. Would you say that's
Rick Wagner: Yes. Yes. Okay. You looked
Dinine: a little surprised when
Rick Wagner: they No, no, no. I reflect daily on scripture. So
Dinine: we, yeah, we were loosely connected online and it was during a time that I was in a really dark place, really struggling. And your post just kept showing up for me.
They were steady and grounding and I reached out and asked if you would meet with me. I don't know if you remember that. I do remember that, yes. And you said yes. [00:02:00] Um, we only met a few times, but your presence during that season was real and deeply impactful. And I want to thank you again here. Um, that's the kind of support that arrives quietly sometimes and has a resounding effect or rebounding effect, a long effect after it's over.
So thank you.
Rick Wagner: You're welcome.
Dinine: Um, and after that, we stayed connected and I asked Rick and Carol if they would be on the show because I watched. Other life had unfolded after you impacted mine. Um, they listened to a couple of shows of the space in between. I think they selected shows based on where they might be in their lives.
Right now, Rick and Carol have been married for 42 years. Wow. Their story includes raising four children, loving 10 grandchildren. Did I get that number right?
Carol Wagner: Yep.
Dinine: Surviving cancer.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: Walking through grief, serving in countless ministries [00:03:00] and doing mission work in El Salvador for over 20 years. And there's something else.
I can't wait for all of you to hear Carol's pilgrimage to Lords.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: When I first heard about it, it was just one of those stories. I was like, I wanna hear more, I wanna read more. And I was wrapped with attention on Facebook. Um, this conversation today is gonna be about faith, joy, illness, healing, partnership, and how to find light even in the darkest places.
Rick and Carol, welcome to this space in between. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.
Rick Wagner: Oh, you're welcome. We're, we're happy to be here.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: Thanks. Thank
Carol Wagner: you.
Dinine: So, I wanna start right at the beginning of our connection, Rick, um, because it's meaningful to me. When you share reflections publicly, did you ever imagine, or do you ever imagine that there might be a, that they might be a lifeline for someone you don't even know, [00:04:00] someone who ended up appearing in your world like me, but there might be more of the means out there,
Rick Wagner: right?
Dinine: Did you ever imagine?
Rick Wagner: Well, and I, I didn't, when I, when I began doing it, I, to be honest with you, the, the whole idea of, of putting, uh, scripture reflections out, there was more of a, my way of. Of processing scripture and so forth. It was a, it was kind of, part of my daily prayer was by doing that, but it quickly became known to me that people were being touched in some way.
And a lot of my parishioners began to follow me and, and, and kind of, uh, use that as their morning prayer every day. So I, I was, I was a, a little bit overwhelmed to think that, you know, if I skipped a day Yeah. Mm-hmm. That people were asking me, you know, are you okay? Pressure,
Dinine: right. That
Rick Wagner: someone's out their, uh, but it's, it's been very good for me in my prayer life, and I've been really honored that so many people have, have felt that it was, uh, meaningful for them as well.[00:05:00]
Dinine: Yeah. Carol.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: I'm curious how you felt when you learned. Um, Rick and I had this unexpected connection during such a vulnerable moment in my life. If you even heard about that. I don't know if, yes, this is the first time you heard.
Carol Wagner: No.
Dinine: And when I reached out and invited you both to join the show, what went through your mind?
What made you say yes?
Carol Wagner: Um, I think I've learned that if we are just open and honest, um, it might help someone whether we find out or not, and it's come back to us, that we've found out at times the how it improves someone else's lives or connects them to us or to someone else that will help them. I don't have any problem with that.
I just feel like that's where God is leading both of us. And actually to the point of when you called Rick, I mean, we're really [00:06:00] honest and open with each other, but he is such a steady. Calm person, that you're not the first person to ask to meet him. The
Dinine: first, the first girl in, girl in shambles. Can you meet?
Carol Wagner: Well, and I say person because it's been men and women and, um, I mean, we've been married 42 years, but we've had, you know, ups and downs. We've gone through a lot. Um, and if either of us can help each other now, I was happy that you were meeting at, uh, the church. Church, um,
Dinine: and not like at a coffee shop or something.
Rick Wagner: Well, it was interesting because I think you were the first person that ever reached out to me that I, I didn't know in some way. Yeah. Or that wasn't connected to the parish. Or, or, or a friend of a friend. I mean, it, I know ultimately was kind of a friend of a friend. Yeah. But it was. Uh, so I, you know, it
Dinine: was really based,
Rick Wagner: shared
Dinine: Yeah.
On what you posted on Facebook. It just, I kept,
Carol Wagner: but that takes a lot for [00:07:00] you to reach out too, because that was kind of, you didn't really know us, except
Dinine: I didn't through Facebook. I didn't know if he would just be like, I can't do that. And I think I even wrote that, like, I don't know if you do this, but can we meet?
Rick Wagner: Well, I asked permission.
Carol Wagner: Yes.
Dinine: Yeah.
Carol Wagner: And I, I mean, I'm very trusting and it was all for the good. I
Dinine: think if you had been there for the first meeting, you would've been like, I have nothing to worry about. This girl is a mess and she just needs help. Um,
Carol Wagner: well, and also we have a trust with a lot of his pastoral moments with people.
There are times where he can't share or shouldn't share with me. So we are very much an open book, but we have a respect level that sometimes I don't wanna know. Um, oh. Because it might be someone that I do know personally, and
Dinine: I understand
Carol Wagner: that it, it gets in the way of our relationships. So. But he just shared a little bit enough, and then I knew you just needed his wisdom and calmness.
Dinine: Yeah, it was [00:08:00] great. It was so helpful and impactful. I even came to the Storyteller series
Carol Wagner: mm-hmm.
Dinine: Because I wanted to soak up more of that. Um, and that's where I met you for the first time, which was great. Um, so I know that you guys listened to those two episodes, um, embracing Change and Opportunity and Living with Visible Illness.
Did anything stand out to you in those two that reflected back about, and this isn't me digging for like mm-hmm. How great the show is, but did it reflect back? I I seem to think you might have chosen those two again based on mm-hmm. What you are going through. So it's more about your personal reflections on it.
Not,
Rick Wagner: well, I, I think what resonated in, in both, or at least one of them, I think both of them, is the, the idea that, and, and we lived through it was in the midst of some really. Dark, difficult and, and, uh, challenging times how present other people were and how there [00:09:00] was, uh, there was a good, uh, that came from it.
Uh, and actually in Carol's case, quite a bit of good. And, and I think I, I think that's reflected in, in most of the, the shows that you're doing. That's what that space is, right? It's that space is to be filled with is is trying to
Dinine: find the light Yeah. On those dark times. And I learned that with my niece, with her mm-hmm.
First battle with cancer, that if we didn't find the light on certain days mm-hmm. Um, I think that's where probably the idea first came to me, but I didn't Yeah. Fully develop it for a decade later. But if you didn't find the light, and I'm sure you will get into your mm-hmm. Your, um. Illness too. I don't know how to, I know you're past it, but, but I think you have to find the light and dark times or you just don't ever come out and That's
Carol Wagner: right.
And I will say I was so intrigued because I'm in this space in between right now. Um, and I've been in other spaces along the way, especially through the illness. 'cause there's a [00:10:00] space at the beginning, there's a space while you're going through. But I'm in a funny space right now after cancer that I'm struggling with.
Um, not on a daily basis, but, uh, I'm kind of in limbo. So I, I think it connects.
Dinine: Is it because you're not quite an ED yet? Is that what you're referring to? Or is it a more
Carol Wagner: Um, it's the
Dinine: internal reflective type thing.
Carol Wagner: It's, it's who am I, I'm not the person I was before cancer. I'm not, I don't even look like that person.
So who is that person in the mirror? Um, even though on the inside I'm sort of the same, but I'm not because of all the treatment.
Rick Wagner: I think there's also the, there's, there's always, especially when cancer gets in the lymph nodes, there's always that, you know, thought is it just, is it just laying dormant?
Yeah. And is it, is it [00:11:00] just right around the corner waiting to come back again? So there's, that's all, I mean, I can, I
Carol Wagner: assume that's always in the back of your mind. I can't get that. We've had a few scans that are clear because it did escape the initial place and that I have to live with that. So you have that.
So that's why I'm kind of in this space. Where am I going to get to a complete light or am is this. My new me,
Dinine: I have a friend mm-hmm. Who's a doctor who after taking care of multitude of family members, neglected her mammogram, found out she had breast cancer, had a double mastectomy, and found out she has a very, I want to call it like a rager cancer gene.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: And what she found was even after she was healed, she couldn't enjoy her daughter's soccer game because she sat there the [00:12:00] entire time saying, is so and so going to get cancer? Is she gonna die before she's 20? Is so andSo because she had found out even in her healing, where she's fully
Carol Wagner: mm-hmm.
Dinine: I believe NED at this point.
It's still out there. Mm-hmm. And so what she finally had to do was, I, I don't know, I'm not trying to say this, I'm not a doctor. She had to turn to medic medication. Mm-hmm. Because her brain was just not allowing her. Mm-hmm. She couldn't, um, do her job as a doctor. She couldn't watch her kids from the soccer sideline.
She couldn't be involved fully in anything. Mm-hmm. Because this thought was just mm-hmm. Rampant in her head. And I hope that that is not as dark for you. She, she credits medication. 'cause now she's like, I just don't think about it. Why might
Carol Wagner: I need to up my medication because I'm already on
Dinine: Okay. All I didn't, I didn't know and I don't, again, I don't wanna like, it's not like have it, I'm here talk about Carol's medication.
No, but you mentioned something that really reminded me of that. Mm-hmm. And that's an issue that [00:13:00] I think she still struggles with, but her struggles are so much less. Mm-hmm. Just so much less Yeah. In the sense that there was a loop she couldn't get out of. Yeah. Um, and I know that you too. And I'm about to jump into that, have each other.
So I wanna take a step back for a minute to your story as a couple. You've been married for 42 years. Mm-hmm. That alone is a testimony, and I, I wish I could say this. We've known we've
Carol Wagner: each other
Dinine: for
Carol Wagner: 50 years.
Dinine: Wow. That's just amazing.
Carol Wagner: Which is crazy.
Rick Wagner: It is.
Dinine: And so here I want you to take a, a walk back. How would you describe your marriage today?
And it goes into a lot of what you just said. Mm-hmm. How would you describe your marriage today compared to those early years where maybe there weren't even kids yet? I don't know how quickly you had kids, but First
Carol Wagner: wedding anniversary we had our first child.
Dinine: Okay. Me too.
Carol Wagner: On the day.
Dinine: Okay. Me very close.
Me too. Really? Yes, me too. Okay. And, um, I was not happy about, it was an act, you know? Yeah. It wasn't too soon. It wasn't the plan. My mom sort of put it on me [00:14:00] that she wanted that to happen and it did. Um. I think, I think for me and my husband, we needed some time together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We didn't live in the same state.
We were long distance and we got married and had a kid and it was, that's a lot. And I had my, I don't know if you guys, maybe you don't 'cause you're holy people, but Sex and the city, I had my, um, you know, carry dreams of going to the city where I was moving to with him and becoming a writer and having cosmopolitans and meeting all these fabulous people.
And I was, you know, in a very debilitating pregnancy. Within two months there was no cosmopolitans. There was no, yeah. So, um, anyway, just thought I'd share that with you, but what has surprised you most about being married this long?
Rick Wagner: Well, I, I think for me, especially with what we went through last year, I'm amazed that in our 42nd year of our marriage that I'm discovering that how much [00:15:00] more I love Carol then.
Then at the beginning, I mean, I, I, I always knew that I loved Carol, but when she was going through cancer, I thought this, the depth of that love was just really made known to me in how broken up I was by even the thought that she, you know, that, that she might, that she might die from this
Dinine: or might
Rick Wagner: not be, I was a mess.
I mean, I, I was a mess. And, and that was when I say I was a mess. That's not me saying
Carol Wagner: you
Rick Wagner: were a mess. Gosh. Oh, no, no. I, I'm not denying that I, I was a mess, but I, that mess, me being a mess was God's way of saying, do you understand the depth of your love? The, do you understand what I've, the gift that I've given you for these 40 or 42 years?
You know? So, um, that's what amazes me is that we've been married this long and now it's like I. I just wanna be with her all the time, which may annoy her. I [00:16:00] dunno. But
Carol Wagner: yeah. And
Dinine: well, you guys look very happy sitting across from you both. You look, you look perfectly situated and happy, which, I mean, I'm sure people can put on acts and whatever, but, um, I believe you and I did receive a text from you.
We didn't know each other that long, but it was, my wife's just been diagnosed. Mm-hmm. And I'm sorry, I really can't continue, but I want you to do this, this, you know, you gave me some guidance to go forward, but I could tell from barely knowing you that it was rocking your world. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so,
Carol Wagner: well even Rick is the first person, um, and I hope I don't offend anyone, but, uh, that really loved me, and I've always said this as is.
Um, I mean, I was loved by my parents, but I was very controlled and told what to do and who to be, so I didn't know who I was. And Rick was the first person that just really came into my life that he accepted me as [00:17:00] is and always has. And I'm a quirky person. We're not alike at all. And through the cancer, um, to see the depth of his love, it was God's way of helping me not be so consumed with what was going on with me.
I needed to serve him as much as he needed to help me, which was what I was asking for through my prayer, because when it hit that I had cancer, I was lost. I mean, I never, you never think. I'm come home today. Yeah. I'm gonna to come home today.
Rick Wagner: How
Carol Wagner: will I handle it? Of
Rick Wagner: things. One of the things I found so interesting is that because in my role as a deacon and I, I am pastoral to people and I, and I kind of help them walk through their difficult challenges and so forth.
But it all went out the window when it's myself.
Dinine: And you [00:18:00] wrote a little bit about that.
Rick Wagner: Yeah. You
Dinine: shared that on And I thought
Rick Wagner: that was, it's like all, all of it just goes out the window. Yeah. When you're vulnerable yourself and
Dinine: beautiful.
Rick Wagner: I mean, and I found that she was supporting me and, and she kept, she kept saying, you don't need to apologize.
If it was, if the situation was reversed and you, you were the one that had cancer, you would be doing that for me. Mm-hmm. So, um, that, that made me feel a little bit better. 'cause I felt kind of weak sometimes that I'm supposed to be mm-hmm. Helping her and I'm,
Dinine: I mean, just if you allow me just to say this and I, I think you'll agree with me, Carol.
When you shared that, I think you showed other people, other spouses, how they can walk through that. I remember reading it. I wasn't in a marriage anymore. I wasn't even in a relationship anymore, but I remember thinking, this is how you walk through that fear of losing someone that sort of, oh, I don't wanna talk about me right now, but here's how sad I'm feeling.
Mm-hmm. Which is kind of what you did. Mm-hmm. I thought [00:19:00] it was exemplary and I don't know that I'm the judge for that, but just letting you know as someone that was just absorbing your life. Mm-hmm. Your lives through the computer screen. I remember thinking even back then, like, I probably need to sit down with Rick with a microphone at some point, and then as I got to.
Get to see Carol's part of it too. It got, it grew stronger. Mm-hmm. So I just wanna thank you as someone on the outside. Mm-hmm. If I ever find myself in a deep relationship again, I will reflect back on that. Mm-hmm. If something ever happens. And when I went through it with my husband, I really wasn't, uh, I didn't know what was coming at me each day.
So there was no real time reflection until years into his illness. But if it were to happen to me again, I think that would be so valuable. Mm-hmm. The way you two, and that's what my next question is kind of leading us to, um, how your faith mm-hmm. Kind of helped this, Carol, you've talked about your prayer
Carol Wagner: mm-hmm.
Dinine: During your cancer [00:20:00] diagnosis, in quotes, lead me Lord.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: That's a powerful surrender.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: Again, something that I think is exemplary and I'd like to follow.
Carol Wagner: Well,
Dinine: can you share what that prayer
Carol Wagner: mm-hmm.
Dinine: Look like in real time for you?
Carol Wagner: When I found out, I just wanted to handle it by myself. Like I didn't want.
And I, I didn't want any of our family to worry. I didn't wanna tell the kids, you know, I, and so I just needed to turn to God and say, you have, you didn't give me cancer to make me suffer you. You have a plan. You knew this before I was even created, so leave me Lord. And the ironic thing and why I've always loved hearing that whenever I am in church or that song just always seems to be [00:21:00] played.
And shortly after we found out, I went for a little walk and I have only Christian music on my phone because I used to run retreats and. That's the song that started playing. And I was just so comforted that I knew that God was right there with us. And he honestly led us because I never slumped into this deep sadness or anger.
And I've talked with a lot of cancer patients now because they'll share with me, and I'm so grateful that I didn't get into that place. So God led me to be, uh, just more positive trying to just take in and receive the love and the support [00:22:00] instead of just being angry or sad. I mean, one morning when, after we first found out.
Uh, I was hugging Rick and just trying to talk about things because even the subject, you know, that that grew more comfortable talking about it as we went through it. Cancer. Cancer
Dinine: or, okay.
Carol Wagner: And I said to Rick, I said, you know, because I had uterine cancer, I said, you know what? I said, I feel like God's just telling me to be grateful because my woman, part of my body gave us these four beautiful children and gave us the joy in our life and I don't need it anymore.
And he just started
bawling.
Bawling. But that wasn't me. That was God. Like just giving me that message that it's okay. Yeah, I'm still here and I'm still, I mean, I feel [00:23:00] like I was still gonna be here, but it's hard to give up part of your. Body of who it make, how, I mean, what part makes you a woman?
Dinine: No, I, I agree.
Yeah. But I think as a woman, I understand you too.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: Because if I were to have that similar Yeah. I'd be like, at least I have Colin Grayson. Yeah,
yeah.
Dinine: You know? Um,
Carol Wagner: I mean, it, it's, God gave us that and it served us well and it's still part of our lives, but I don't need it anymore. So I was, that helped me be like, okay, you know, this is gonna be okay.
Rick Wagner: Well, very, very much Carol Carol's journey. 'cause we, I didn't see a lot of that going on because what Carol presented to the world was, and, and what I, the way she lived her life was, how can we use this?
Dinine: Well, that was for the good. That was my next question. I think you're,
Rick Wagner: yeah.
Dinine: I think you're reading my mind, and maybe I'm wrong, but you said something really beautiful that Carol was or became a sacramental.[00:24:00]
Presence. Was that, am I using your words right?
Rick Wagner: Yeah, yeah.
Dinine: For you during her illness and
you
Rick Wagner: were just starting to Well, I, I think any, yeah, I think anything that is, uh, that is sacramental, it's, it's a, it's an epiphany. It reveals Christ to us. And every, at every turn, Carol was revealing Christ to both me and, and anybody who had the privilege of, of being around her.
I mean, literally denine, within 10 minutes of the phone call that we got from the doctor saying that she did have cancer, she was asking the question, how, how can we, how, how can we keep our grand, the grandkids from being scared of me? 'cause she immediately knew with, with chemo that she was gonna lose her hair.
We have 10 grandkids who adore her, and suddenly grandma's not gonna have any hair. And so her immediate thought was, how can we. To keep that from happening. So within hours of the diagnosis, we're [00:25:00] planning a haircutting party for all of the grandkids out. You saw that
Dinine: on
Rick Wagner: Facebook? Mm-hmm. For all the grandkids out in the backyard.
And we turned it into a celebration. And uh, it was really beautiful because we all sat on a blanket and Carol explained to 'em, grandma is sick and, but she's gonna get better from the medicine, but the medicine is gonna make her lose her hair. And so I thought, we're gonna, if I'm gonna lose my hair, let's turn it into a party.
So we had a bunch of pairs of scissors and all the grandkids all took a little snips of her hair. I shaved her head. And the beautiful part about it is 15 minutes after Carol was hairless, all the grandkids are running around in the backyard playing.
Carol Wagner: They said, can we go play tag again? So I didn't scare them.
It said that. Yeah. I mean, but that was the Holy Spirit working through me because. Um, I'm still amazed that I thought of that. Does that, so I don't give myself credit for that, but it was so beautiful. But there was a [00:26:00] lot in between the space of that evening because I just recently found out that my, our youngest son's wife, she had to leave the backyard
because she, she got so emotional.
Oh. And then my sister was there too. I have three sisters and one of them was there and I asked her to take pictures, and then she sent me the pictures and the hugs in those pictures. Like, I mean, Maureen will laugh at this, but I mean, she's not a professional photographer, so I was kind of putting this all in her hands.
But she captured these moments that were love to me, like. Just to see my daughter-in-law and my daughter hugging. But it, it was, it was sadness and comfort. It was like, we're gonna get through this. Or my hugs [00:27:00] to our kids were so, there was a lot that evening that was more than, um, just shaving grandma's head.
Do we
Rick Wagner: need more
Carol Wagner: tissues? I've got,
Rick Wagner: but she accomplished exactly what her goal was and that was, she didn't want the grandkids to be scared and,
Carol Wagner: and they
Rick Wagner: weren't. The whole time within, within minutes they were all playing and they were just like, okay, grandma's, grandma's bald.
Dinine: I mean, it was,
Carol Wagner: I don't know if
Dinine: you saw, saw, I watched that on Facebook.
You did too. I watched it unfold with, I think you wrote a sort of a long thing about it. Yeah. I don't know that I saw video, but I saw the pictures and I did think, what a great family. And I know that maybe that sounds like I did a snap judgment, but I think that word great encompasses. Bringing the joy, bringing your, um, bringing the divine in.
Yeah. The way Rick said, you keep showing him that too. Mm-hmm. Um, I have, at times I struggle with my faith. [00:28:00] Mm-hmm. And, um, and seeing examples like this are so reaffirming. Confirming. Yeah. And beautiful.
Carol Wagner: Well, and it's, our faith has been growing, so it's not always been so strong, but we've, we just like awaken more and more as we go through life and recognize it.
Like, you, you gotta see it. It's there.
Dinine: I think it's also a tribute to how the two of you live together. That that was able to take place. Yeah. That was able to like, come in
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: To your life. Even when you said right away.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: Well, okay. I had my four kids. I don't need this part like. Somebody else, maybe me.
Mm-hmm. I don't know if I ever get that di I might, it might take me weeks to get to that. Um, but I understood you as a woman when you said it, but I think you had some sort of higher level understanding that came to you at that time. And that's, I think that's wonderful. And I think [00:29:00] sharing that it just rebounded into your grandchildren somehow with this party.
Mm-hmm. And, and shaving your head. Mm-hmm. And like you said, your daughter and your daughter-in-law.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: That's,
Carol Wagner: yeah.
Dinine: I was going to ask next, um, when you look back, what did it teach you about vulnerability and joy and partnership? But I think you guys just answered that question. Yeah. Because that's amazing.
That it's just an amazing
Rick Wagner: Well, I, I remember we were able to, um, we take a trip down to, uh, siesta Key at after Christmas each year, and we were able to do it. The, um, there was a break in her chemo and she felt good enough, so we went ahead and took the trip, but all the kids came down too. And we were, so, we were in a restaurant, the whole, all the kids and grandkids and all the grandkids are just like hovering around Carol because she's the artist and she's drawing pictures and they're, but they're just hovering around her.
And I just sat and cried and my daughter reached over and just pulled me [00:30:00] in and said, it's okay, dad. It's, it is like, she knew, she didn't have to say, what's the matter? Because it was me
Dinine: watching
Rick Wagner: Carol seeing how beautiful this was, you know, right in front of me. And, uh, she was able to recognize that. She just, I just needed to know that that was okay.
Dinine: Aw, I love that. You know,
Carol Wagner: another part of the whole journey is learning how to receive the humility that you need to have, because I mean, we all push it away. Any kindness, any signs of love, or even sitting here, hearing him say those things about me. Um. That, that was huge. And it, it would come and go whether I could receive people's love and, and God had to help me receive it.
Because you, you wanna, you wanna take care of yourself. Like, I'm a mom, I'm a grandma. You take care of other people. You don't take care of [00:31:00] yourself, which is wrong. Yeah, we should take care of ourselves. But when other people start showing you that, it's like. Okay. God, this is a lot to receive. Help me through this.
Rick Wagner: Well, I think our daughter was, our other daughter, Laura, you know, she set up a meal train and so we were just like getting food and gift cards and all these things and, and I kept saying, Karen, Laura, we don't, we don't need this. This is just the two of us. And Laura, Laura basically said, it's not all about you.
It's about letting other people, people, people need to do this for you. Absolutely. They love you too as a couple, and they want to do this for you, so let them do it. Mm-hmm. It's like, okay.
Dinine: And I remember telling you guys on our pre-interview call that I tried a couple of times to jump in when I was gonna be an indie and it was always filled.
I think there was one slot and when I went back later to, oh, I'm gonna be here. I could do it. Yeah. 'cause I guess I felt like I couldn't just order from outta state. Yeah. Which was stupid. I probably should, but I like, I can't even get them dinner.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Rick Wagner: We ate, we ate very well for a year,
Carol Wagner: that's for sure.
Yeah. And, and [00:32:00] she called us and after, I mean we just had her set it up for a short period of time, but then she said, mom. There's too many people that still wanna do it for you. Can I extend it? And I was like, okay. But then I mean it ex I can't tell you how long, but it was wonderful. Um, again, a
Dinine: testament to your impact in the community, both of you and, and how that light does shine through and people want to reflect it back.
I think, like your daughter said, it isn't just about you. Right? You helped grow something bigger in the community too, right? Even so, thanks for accepting those meals,
Carol Wagner: I guess, on behalf of it. Well, and gift cards, and, I mean, I didn't realize people still sent cards, no cards.
Rick Wagner: Hundreds and
Carol Wagner: hundreds of of cards.
I, and I, I was overwhelmed. I make, I create cards with my art and I thank goodness people still send them because I was shocked, but so moved how many cards I got every single [00:33:00] day. I love that. Did you know people still use the mail system?
Dinine: No. In fact, when Danica was turning 16, I asked for a bunch of cards.
Mm-hmm. And I don't know what happened. She got a few, but she didn't get the Yeah. I wanted to drop them all over her in the bed. Oh, cute. And we didn't. Cute. We got, I'd say we got about 2016. Yeah. But I thought I would get like 300. Yeah. 'cause I had, but it didn't. Yeah. Um, so I think that's even better. Like, just, I'm happy for you that it did actually happen.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: I wanna sort of talk to you about Lord's mm-hmm.
Carol Wagner: Lord's. Mm-hmm.
Dinine: Um, your visit to Lord's deeply fascinated me, so I wanna spend some time here.
Carol Wagner: Okay.
Dinine: What, I think I know the answer to this after just talking to you guys. Mm-hmm. But what drew you to Lords and what were you hoping to understand or receive? I have some other questions.
Okay. But those are my What drew you there and what were you hoping to understand?
Carol Wagner: Okay.
Dinine: And or receive.
Carol Wagner: Um, [00:34:00] this is interesting. I'll try to make it as short and brief as I can, but, um, my trip to Lords, there was a long space in between my brother's death and my trip to Lords. Um, my brother died at the age of 35.
I was only 24, and he was my only brother. And his wife remarried, a man who had lost his wife to cancer and they had been married for years, but they served this order in the Catholic church called The Order of Malta, and basically they served the homeless and the sick, which they call Meads.
Okay.
So for over 25 years, I witnessed my sister-in-law serving sick people and taking them to Lourdes.
And I was so fascinated with it. Um, I would always ask her about it and then. Come to find out I have cancer. And she, uh, [00:35:00] sent me an invitation to apply to be a malad. And I just, the presence of my brother just kind of connected there. I mean, it, he wasn't not a part of this, even though he's not here. It's, it's his wife that invited me.
And I have always had a great devotion to our lady, um, the mother of Christ be, to get through things in my life that I can't handle. And I know she handled the worst thing anybody could go through is seeing her son crucified. And what I'm going through, it doesn't measure. So I know she understands. So Lourds is a devotion to our lady, to the mother of God.
Um, and you go there. Hoping for a miracle that you'll heal. But I also knew that [00:36:00] we don't know what we need healed. So yes, I was a malad, I was a sick person with cancer, hoping that our lady would intervene and heal my cancer. But there's other things in me that probably needed healed too. So I was very hopeful going and the impact there of these, all these people in this that were there serving the sick people, taking them to see the water weeping out of the rocks near the statue of Mary and touching it, and their, their hope and their prayers were coming through that, just seeing them and then I get to touch it.
I get to be cleansed in the water from the spring that comes from the ground. There's a long story about it and I won't go through it, but, um. You have to have faith because you have to believe in these things to have hope that there's gonna be healing. So the [00:37:00] whole purpose of going is healing and the belief in, in Mary.
Dinine: So when I ask you mm-hmm. What happened?
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: When you were there, what is the first thing, what happened when you were there?
Carol Wagner: There? Um,
Dinine: and I phrase it that way specifically for a reason.
Carol Wagner: Okay.
Dinine: What To see what comes to your mind first. Yeah.
Carol Wagner: What happened is, um, I kind of froze in the witness of humble servants all around me, and I needed to receive them because not everybody gets this gift.
And so I had to turn to prayer, like, please just let me take this in. I didn't wanna miss anything. Like everybody doesn't get to go to Lords. And so I needed to get that out of the way. Um.
So
did, but my daughter, our daughter Laura, was my caretaker. 'cause you have to have a caretaker [00:38:00] with you. And it's another long story why Rick wasn't there.
He was my first choice, but he needed to serve someone else in our family.
Okay.
Uh, during that time. But our daughter, Laura was with me. And, um, I received a deeper foundation of our relationship too.
Dinine: Mother daughter.
Carol Wagner: Mother daughter with our faith as the core. And she's the one that we're moving into her backyard.
I mean, and
Dinine: so when I say did something shift after that, I don't, I don't know if, is that a fair assessment that, that shifted too and made maybe, I don't know, Rick, you didn't go to Lords, but did you have some sort of, uh. What's the word I'm looking for by osmosis? Did something shift in you? I know you said before we turned the mics on, that because of what you went through, you're now able, and we're gonna get into that I hope in a minute.
Um, the changes that are coming with where [00:39:00] you live. Mm-hmm.
Rick Wagner: Yeah. No, I, I think when, when, uh, Carol went to Lords and I, I recognized that I wasn't gonna be able to be with, with her. Uh, I really loved the fact that it was gonna be Carol and Laura because, or Carol and any of our kids. Mm-hmm. But, but the fact that it was, was Laura and to be able, um, for them to spend that kind of time in, in, in such a holy place.
And I could tell every time I talked to Carol that it was really impacting her in a, in a profound way. So, um, I just, I just carried that into,
Carol Wagner: yeah.
Rick Wagner: Into my own prayer life.
Carol Wagner: Well, and two things that were so significant. Is I developed a deeper relationship with my sister-in-law. She always looked at me as the little sister.
And you know, I'm 65 years old, so, um, it was hard for her to ever see me as an adult. And we, [00:40:00] through this process, we are now in sync and have a friendship that is based on our faith in a deeper way than we ever have, and we've known each other, you know?
Dinine: So it's sort of shifted that relationship a little bit.
Yeah. In that your colleagues now
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: And I don't mean colleagues in a, in a distance sense.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: You're no longer the little sister. You're on the same plane.
Carol Wagner: Yeah. And she's no longer my brother's wife. She's my dear companion. Um, and the other thing, one thing that they do is, um. We all go into a chapel and there's just beautiful music and choir singing, and every malad or sick person goes up and the caretaker stands behind them.
And one of your team, because I had a team with me for 24 hours every day. Six people that pushed me in a cart all everywhere I wanted to go. Wow. But they take you up and they wash your [00:41:00] feet and they're singing this song that is like angels, but they're saying your name.
Wow.
And when I heard my name and my daughter, you know, squeezed my shoulders and we're both crying, it was such a beautiful moment of, um, humility to receive.
But then this person I just met that morning is washing my feet. Wow. And I mean, yeah, there's. Presence of God all around you in Lords. It's, it just
Dinine: sounds amazing.
Carol Wagner: It's amazing. I mean,
Dinine: it just, I saw pictures Yeah. On Facebook, but I, this is helping fill in
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: Because you were describing as best you could, but to hear it from Carol.
Oh, sure. Yeah. It's
Carol Wagner: the depth of, of prayer and, and the hope that, um, there's so many believers, like it's hard to believe that [00:42:00] nowadays at sometimes in
Dinine: the way the world is Yes. It makes you wonder and then you go there and
Carol Wagner: Yes.
Dinine: It just, it's like me watching you guys on Facebook.
Carol Wagner: Oh yes.
Dinine: And then you going to, Lord, it's like, it kind of reaffirms for you that there is good things going on.
Yeah. Good people. And your faith is not wasted.
Carol Wagner: Yeah. Well, thank you.
Dinine: Yeah. I love that. Um, I wanna, I guess because of where we are, um, in the conversation, uh, we have recently talked about the idea of downsizing. And moving into a smaller home on your daughter's property. And because Laura's been mentioned so many times mm-hmm.
I think this is a good transition. Um, I think I know how you're feeling about the transition because of our previous discussion, but what feels exciting for both of you and what feels difficult if you, if you feel you could be transparent, because this is, I think, a hard move for parents to make.
Rick Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: To take a smaller, literally a, a literal trends, like you're taking a [00:43:00] smaller role in, in the sense that you're gonna be in a smaller property and you're on one of your daughters, you
Carol Wagner: won't ever be hosting again because we don't have the room, which is fine.
Dinine: One grandkid at a time, right? Yeah. Can come over and,
Rick Wagner: well, I, I, Carol had asked me, you know, when we were making this, discerning this decision, you know, what, what are the kind of, the pros and cons and the.
The con for me, I think was this sense of independence that you, you know, that I'm, I'm, I'm still gonna be able to come and go as I please, but just the idea that, um, that it's somehow is a, you're giving in or you're throwing in the towel, you know, and, and I that silly way to think about it, but you know, it's like you, you feel like even though you're still gonna be fully independent, you feel like there's something by giving up your home that, that we're gonna be dependent on, on other people.
Um, but for, I mean, the, the [00:44:00] highlight for me is, first of all, I've, I've been asking Carol to, to get rid of stuff for years. So this,
Dinine: that's one of the good things. That's not a trend, that's not a difficult transition for
Rick Wagner: Rick. No. So that, that, uh, that was a blessing that we were able to get rid of a lot years worth of stuff that we could, and it was easy.
And I can also begin to. Look at, gosh, maybe I can retire in a, you know, in a few years because we're not gonna have a mortgage and we're not gonna have all that
Dinine: upkeep.
Rick Wagner: All the upkeep and so, and forth and, and where I, where there was kind of, in my mind, no end in sight of, of being able to retire. It makes it seem possible now.
Mm-hmm. So,
Dinine: yeah. Would you agree on those points of what's difficult and what might be joyous or easy?
Carol Wagner: Um, yes. Or
Dinine: exciting?
Carol Wagner: It was, it's been very freeing to give up everything, but, um, that is probably one concern that I am a creator. I'm an artist and so [00:45:00] I, I kind of stay in one lane now in this stage of my life.
But I also love to create lots of things and I had all the stuff I needed to be a woodworker, a jewelry maker, anything. It was completely in my basement and that's all gone. I just kept into the one lane. So I
Dinine: Are you gonna stay painting?
Carol Wagner: I'm gonna stay painting for sure. Okay. And I'm staying with sewing because I've been teaching the grandkids sewing.
'cause I think it's a lost art.
Dinine: And I should say for the people that are listening, Carol has a wealth of art that is, I believe, available. Mm-hmm. When you do, do you do shows or do you make it available to your
Carol Wagner: It's online. I sell it online. I
Dinine: have a few pieces that I bought, one I gave to my sister. It's beautiful.
And we'll have the, in the show notes, we're gonna have a link to wherever people could take a look or buy. Um. But I think you're a fantastic artist. Thank you. And I think your [00:46:00] translation of your journey is very beautiful to watch from an art perspective. Oh, thank you. And also to take in, so
Carol Wagner: yeah.
Dinine: Anyway, thank you.
Carol Wagner: Thank, yeah.
Dinine: Okay.
Carol Wagner: And I, we've also talked about there's unknown by doing this transition. Like we just need to prepare ourselves. So there's gonna be times where we might get frustrated. It's very tiny. When we say tiny, it's tiny. I don't even tell people the square footage because their jaws drop. And I don't want that reaction to something that we're trying to move on in way.
Yeah, you wanna way in a positive way. You wanna bring the
Dinine: positivity
Carol Wagner: into it because Yeah, because we're going to, we're gonna make it work. Um, but then there's gonna be unknown. Great things. We
Rick Wagner: haven't, we haven't shared a bathroom for 20 years.
Carol Wagner: Yeah, that'll
Rick Wagner: be,
Carol Wagner: that'll be. I know. And it's big enough for us, us to have two zings, so Right.
Dinine: So,
Carol Wagner: but we, we gain an inground pool right in our front yard. And
Dinine: I guess if you just keep a key to your daughter's house, she might have a few extra bathrooms [00:47:00] if that times you need.
Carol Wagner: Yeah. And that's great. That's comforting to know you. Yeah. If I wanna, I, I'm, we're not gonna have an oven. I, if I wanna bake something, I can go across, just go there.
Yeah, yeah. Um, so there's unknown but the simplicity of it is what I think we really embrace now. 'cause we're living very simply right now because our house is for sale and it's empty. Empty and we really enjoy it. Yeah. And it's no problem. And I'm surprised that it's no problem.
Dinine: I remember my friend, um, she moved over from London to New York and she had a beautiful, fantastical apartment in Tribeca in New York.
Mm-hmm. You could just imagine the amount. Money and all that. Yeah. But I remember at one point we were just talking and she was like, you know, when I was most happy was there was a period of two weeks when our stuff did not get delivered from London. We were, we had beds, like mattresses on the floor. We were waiting for all the furniture and artwork.
And she was like, [00:48:00] I don't think I've been that happy since. Mm-hmm. There was something about the absence of belongings, the absence of material possessions, and she was like, it, it was literally that, and it was probably two years later after she had moved in. She's like, I still reflect back on those two weeks.
Yeah. And we were eating pizza with paper plates. Yeah. And she didn't have a housekeeper yet full time.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: She was just her and her kids and her husband, and she was like, I, I really miss it. Yeah. I don't know that we could ever go back.
Carol Wagner: Yeah.
Dinine: Um, he was on TV and mm-hmm. Whatever, but. That is what I have not thought about her telling me that since our kids were probably four.
Yeah. And when you were both talking, I was thinking of Showbie and how she had told me that and how you just said we're happier because of it. Yeah. And I think she sort of had it for a brief period and it's
Carol Wagner: real easy to keep your house clean when there's nothing in it. There's no dust collecting. I
Dinine: love it
Carol Wagner: anywhere.
Dinine: I love it because
Carol Wagner: I love it.
Dinine: Well that [00:49:00] sounds like a high note. And so what I wanna ask next as we sort of are coming to an end of our time here is I wanna talk a little bit about hope because your lives, mm-hmm. Your ministries, even your marriage, all seem rooted in that word. If you could each say one thing to someone who's currently, I know Rick, you had a a lot for me when I was in my dark place, but if there's someone out there listening now who is in a dark place, um, like I said, when we first met, what would you say about hope?
Rick Wagner: Well, I would think, you know, I always encourage people, even people that are of a different faith or I think everybody has a core or a, a seed or a kernel of faith in their hearts. And, and I think the, the foundation of faith is hope, right? A, a, a look and a possibility of, of, of something beyond. Uh, and that's why, that's why [00:50:00] Jesus was crucified to and, and resurrected to provide us with that hope of, of whatever it is that that lies for us next.
And that speaks to not only going from this life to eternal life, but going from a downside in my current life to a better side of my current life. So there, there's hope present in both of those, um, situations. And I think that. What faith allows us is in the Catholic church at, at the end of a funeral mass, be before the, the body is, is taken to be buried.
We say that we send them off with a sure and certain hope in the resurrection. I like that idea. I like that phrase. Sure. And certain it's like there's no, there's no doubt about hope. You know, hope is, hope is present. It's just our, uh, ability to, to grasp it.
Dinine: I was literally in my head saying our [00:51:00] ability to grasp
Rick Wagner: it.
Yeah,
but
Dinine: you said it out loud.
Rick Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I think hope is present. What we need to train ourselves to do is to, to reach out and grab it
Carol Wagner: or to recognize it in every different person, whether they believe or are connected with an organized religion. Um. Faith comes in all, I mean, hope comes in all different forms and it can kinda, you, you can repla, you can say it's faith or you can say it's hope.
Um, but I think it's very, you have to slow down a little bit and simplify your life to be able to see it. 'cause it's around all of us. Whether you're a part of an organized religion, whether you say you're a believer, um, everybody can say they have hope. Where does that hope come from? It comes through [00:52:00] people, it comes through actions, it comes through gestures.
Um, it comes through music, art. I mean,
Rick Wagner: and, and you know, when Carol was going through what she went through, she, she radiated hope. So where I was feeling hopeless, she was radiating this hope that you couldn't help but. Either absorb it or Yeah, whatever. Yeah. But I mean, it was there for the taking 'cause she was radiating it.
Carol Wagner: Yeah. And we, I mean we worked through our faith, but I would say to other people that if they're just really down, find that somewhere in your life, like through someone, through an action, through, you know, even a movie or something you read but work at it. I mean, don't just think it's gonna come to you, um, it's going to come to you, but you have to slow down and be present and be in even silence to recognize it.
So, you know, I [00:53:00] am now trying to say that this new me like is enough. And that's my hope that other people just embrace if they're down really far. Work at getting up to that new you. Like, don't just rely on what's in your past. I don't wanna rely on the fact that and stay in the cancer world. It's hard for me to even Yeah.
Talk about that a lot. Um, even now I wanna just say, okay, I'm moving forward.
Dinine: Yeah.
Carol Wagner: Um, but I have to find it. And, and
Dinine: that's what you mentioned before about, um, so that's what sort of, you, you guys have been like ESP sort of people because I was going to say, um, what is, where are you finding the light right now in your space in between, because you guys are in a space in between more than I knew before we started the pre-interviewed [00:54:00] discussions and all that.
Um, where do you find the light? And it sounds like you both have, but where do you, if you had to sum it up in one sentence, where do you find the light?
Carol Wagner: I think I'm still finding it. Um. Because I am, I had that prayer of lead me Lord, and I'm still hopeful that it'll be clarified. I have had a lot of directions set before me, and I'm not sure where he's leading me yet, so I'm trying to, my life is brighter, but I'm still working on it because I'm in that transition period of what do I do now?
Like, who am I? And so I'm still looking for it. Right?
Dinine: We might need a part two with Carol guys just putting it out there.
Carol Wagner: I mean, it's, it's, my life is becoming brighter because we didn't even touch on this, but your health, after you go through a series of treatment, you, it takes a long [00:55:00] time for your health to recover or your energy and all that.
I'm finding more light right now because I feel better. But I'm still the guidance of where God's leading me is what I'm seeking out. So it might happen through people. I don't know. Okay. So I'm still open to that.
Dinine: Rick, what about you?
Rick Wagner: Yeah, you know, I, I, I do a lot of retreat work and, and the core of the retreat work that I do is this idea of sacramentals and, and you brought it up earlier, but sacramental people and sacramental moments and, and just this recognition that, that, that God is constantly tapping us on the shoulder through these little things that happen in our lives or the through the people that he sends our way.
And that's where I, that's where I see the light is in all, all the people and then those beautiful moments that he provides to me on a regular basis.
Dinine: Mm-hmm. I love that. I, I think you guys have brought the light into the studio today. Mm-hmm. I [00:56:00] wanna say that, um, when you look at what you've built, the people you've served, you just kind of.
For a moment reflected on that, the family you've raised, what do you hope your legacy will be? I think I might even have an idea just from talking to you, but what do you hope your legacy will be?
Rick Wagner: Hmm. That's a, that's a tough question. I hadn't, I haven't thought about a lot. Um,
Carol Wagner: I, I, I mentioned to you in my pre-interview about the choosing joy, and I think that I've tried to live that way, and I hope that that flows out into our family and friends, that they choose joy, they find joy.
Um, and you can do that in many different ways. Um,
Dinine: I think you're a perfect inspiration for that.
Carol Wagner: Aw, thanks.
Dinine: I really do. And, um, I did have it in my notes, but we [00:57:00] had gone to another subject. Yeah. So I took it out, but it was in my notes to ask you about choosing joy. Yeah. So I'm really glad you said that because I think you're a perfect representation of that.
Oh, thanks. Thanks. And I think a lot of the things that Rick has said today, bolster that even further. Yeah. Um, if you don't,
Rick Wagner: well, I think, I think what comes to mind for me, I, because of my role as a deacon, I, I'm in, I've already mentioned funerals once, and I don't wanna be so focused on, we
Dinine: know you're more than funerals, Rick.
We know that. We all
Rick Wagner: know that. But I mean, that's, that's where I think a reading that is used at funerals oftentimes is this idea that, you know, well done, my good and faithful servant, and I think that's what I want my legacy to be. That. That I was a good and faithful servant, you know, that, that I was called as a deacon and as a Christian to spread the gospel message.
And I don't do it the same as other people may do it, but I've done my best. Mm-hmm. And so I think, I think I want my family to be able to [00:58:00] say, to use that reading at my funeral and feel like, you know, that really fits dad well. Mm-hmm. Or that really fits Rick well. Mm-hmm. So I, I think, I think, and
Carol Wagner: they,
Rick Wagner: I
Dinine: could see that
Carol Wagner: and they do say that to me.
Uh, I mean they, about him see him, yeah. About their dad because he worked really hard to raise our family and provide financially, but he was not around a lot due to his three or four jobs. And it's beautiful to see the kids and our in-law, or son-in-laws and daughter-in-laws. See his witness as a good and faithful servant.
And it's been beautiful because that's his time now with the kids. And how much more beautiful could that be? That, you know, I,
Dinine: I couldn't think of anything. Yeah, I mean that's, I think you both already live up to what your legacy will be and you're such an inspiration as a couple. And I wanna [00:59:00] thank you truly for being here.
I think you've shown us what leading with honesty, wisdom, and faith looks like. Um, you brought your wisdom to me, Carol. You brought it today, your story as a reminder that joy isn't the absence of hardship, in my opinion, it's the presence of grace and faith inside that hardship.
Carol Wagner: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: And you guys are a living testament to that.
Um, as you enter this next chapter, I just would like you to know that, um, I hope it brings the gentleness. Worthy of everything you've poured into others over the years. And to everyone listening, if you're in a dark place, if you're in a transition, if you're searching for hope, I hope this conversation reminds you that you're not alone.
You might reach out to someone you don't know on Facebook and meet up with him. Um, or you might buy someone's art because it inspired you at night alone and you saw it come across your [01:00:00] computer screen. Um, I want you to know that the light will often show up in unexpected ways through unexpected people.
Thank you guys. Thank you friends for being with us today on the space in between.
Carol Wagner: Hi friends, if you enjoy what you're listening to, please follow, rate and share the space in between.