Isabelle struggles with the idea of doing 'little yucks' because her to-do list is endless, she never stops, and the demands on her feel endless--how can you even think about what you need or stop to rest without feeling guilty/lost/overwhelmed with unstructured time? David counters with a behavioral truth bomb: the power of knowing your establishing operation. What levers did the environment around you press?
-----
Isabelle wonders whether she even knows what a little yuck is; she turns everything else in to a big yuck, or a bunch of ‘to-do’s’ — for David, a little yuck helps the larger household, but the timing and the coping of it is just for you. Like doing the dishes so he can prep for a speech, or laundry (even though he had just done laundry) because he wants the option to wear a certain pair of pants. The same energy level existed, it was not on today’s to-do list, and he just did it to keep moving his hands. Isabelle is suffering from a blindspot here: she doesn’t really permit herself to do a little yuck, then return to something you enjoy…but she doesn’t have a to-do list anymore? That feels impossible, she doesn’t know how to not to-do list. David describes how he doesn’t have a written to-do list, it’s connected to a day off physical routine and he calls a friend and then goes for it. But for his to-do list on his day off, when he didn’t have a bunch of things he had to do. He held back from going off the rails and doing too much, he actually held back and stuck to his easy-level plans. Isabelle describes how she does not like to cook or bake, but if she can do it at her leisure, then she enjoys it. She embraces doing it without pressure and she doesn’t feel the chore of it. But the load of things she has to do feels endless, she has never carved out the time where there is nothing for her to do…she doesn’t have the experience of time where something is not expected of her, or she doesn’t expect it of herself. David’s boat is privileged in that he doesn’t have kids and he is not a super person. He is very aware of how much time is taken from someone around childcare, he sees parents doing everything, and doing everything you need or everything your child needs, you can’t really do both. The messages from society is “you’re not allowed to take care of you,” or “you’re supposed to take care of other people.” This feels more like a “mom” thing than a “dad” thing—but it's not accurate. When we’re talking about trying to find the little yuck in Isabelle’s life, the equation is different. For Isabelle, in her world, there are several agents of chaos that enter and are rerouted to priority, and there’s never a moment where she can’t be interrupted or distracted from whatever is happening. There isn’t enough time to feel the thought “I have a lot of energy and there’s nowhere for it to go.” She thinks of a meme she saw where a woman ushers her family out the door. And she finally has time to herself; does she sit and stare at a wall or does she panic clean? Isabelle really struggles with making a decision with what to do with her time when she doesn’t have the constant demands, the volley of little yucks stops, but then why does she choose a little yuck? David goes really complicated, with this thing called an establishing operation. The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water; the rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water, but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the reinforcer. So the yuck meter for Isabelle is totally blown out. So you have to take into account what is the establishing operation for her—and it might be that what do you do to make this time guilt-free or how you set it up to make it yours. What can you do so you don’t feel bad for watching 3 hours when everyone gets home? That really rings a bell for Isabelle; it really connects for her around the challenge of what it means, to even sit down. She really doesn't ever sit down. She recovered from a fractured pelvis because she didn't sit enough. This means changing her relationship to resting or hitting the pause button and carving out the unique, new structure, when she is on her own, or has a lot of energy, or has the agency and privilege to exercise it. She has to change her establishing operation. David names that you have to give yourself the real reinforcement that you need, and not trick yourself into doing chores (that would normally ‘reward’ you with a different set up). Isabelle names that recent training with Hallowell and Ratey (see ADHD 2.0 book link below) is that rumination neural network in the brain is designed for creating problems, and another neural network runs when you’re not doing anything, and another neural network is task positive (you’re trying to do the thing). Now with neurotypical folx, you can flip a switch and go from one mode to another—you can choose! Like what a lot of therapy models use. But if you’re neurodivergent, the environment is what presses the levers, otherwise they’re all going at the same time. Isabelle recognized that the rumination network is always running, and how something about how she can’t switch the levers has to do with the fact that her environment for rest is not different from her environment for everything else (her home). She really needs external cue to signal to her that the thing you think you’re working with is different; she needs a solid external boundary to help with this. She needs to know when they take the water away. Otherwise she’ll keep working and not attend to herself. And she doesn’t know it changed. The rules don’t work anymore, it's not “you,” —maybe it’s everything else? Or is it maybelline?
Body Doubling: Someone else in the same room or within view of the person who is trying to get a task done—the other person doing the task creates the illusion of structure. In essence, a buddy is sits with you as you work on something (could be doing a task, or just quietly there, maybe giving you cues or reminders). In reference to in films, this term is used to describe a body double, or a stand in for lead actors in certain shots. Here are some basic ideas.
Establishing operation (EO): Depriving or altering the access to something to make it more enticing and rewarding. The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water, and rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water...but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the water, makes it more enticing and more 'rewarding' for the rat.
Reiserfeiber - “Literally translated, Reisefieber means “travel fever” – but it’s not the type of sickness that keeps you in bed. Reisefieber describes the feelings of excitement, combined with anxiety and nervousness, that you have in anticipation of a trip.”
-----
Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez
Technical Support by: Bobby Richards
Special Thanks to Huberman Lab. Andrew Huberman, you’d totally make our day if we ever sat next to you on a plane and you were in a chatty mood.
Chapters
Isabelle struggles with the idea of doing 'little yucks' because her to-do list is endless, she never stops, and the demands on her feel endless--how can you even think about what you need or stop to rest without feeling guilty/lost/overwhelmed with unstructured time? David counters with a behavioral truth bomb: the power of knowing your establishing operation. What levers did the environment around you press?
-----
Isabelle wonders whether she even knows what a little yuck is; she turns everything else in to a big yuck, or a bunch of ‘to-do’s’ — for David, a little yuck helps the larger household, but the timing and the coping of it is just for you. Like doing the dishes so he can prep for a speech, or laundry (even though he had just done laundry) because he wants the option to wear a certain pair of pants. The same energy level existed, it was not on today’s to-do list, and he just did it to keep moving his hands. Isabelle is suffering from a blindspot here: she doesn’t really permit herself to do a little yuck, then return to something you enjoy…but she doesn’t have a to-do list anymore? That feels impossible, she doesn’t know how to not to-do list. David describes how he doesn’t have a written to-do list, it’s connected to a day off physical routine and he calls a friend and then goes for it. But for his to-do list on his day off, when he didn’t have a bunch of things he had to do. He held back from going off the rails and doing too much, he actually held back and stuck to his easy-level plans. Isabelle describes how she does not like to cook or bake, but if she can do it at her leisure, then she enjoys it. She embraces doing it without pressure and she doesn’t feel the chore of it. But the load of things she has to do feels endless, she has never carved out the time where there is nothing for her to do…she doesn’t have the experience of time where something is not expected of her, or she doesn’t expect it of herself. David’s boat is privileged in that he doesn’t have kids and he is not a super person. He is very aware of how much time is taken from someone around childcare, he sees parents doing everything, and doing everything you need or everything your child needs, you can’t really do both. The messages from society is “you’re not allowed to take care of you,” or “you’re supposed to take care of other people.” This feels more like a “mom” thing than a “dad” thing—but it's not accurate. When we’re talking about trying to find the little yuck in Isabelle’s life, the equation is different. For Isabelle, in her world, there are several agents of chaos that enter and are rerouted to priority, and there’s never a moment where she can’t be interrupted or distracted from whatever is happening. There isn’t enough time to feel the thought “I have a lot of energy and there’s nowhere for it to go.” She thinks of a meme she saw where a woman ushers her family out the door. And she finally has time to herself; does she sit and stare at a wall or does she panic clean? Isabelle really struggles with making a decision with what to do with her time when she doesn’t have the constant demands, the volley of little yucks stops, but then why does she choose a little yuck? David goes really complicated, with this thing called an establishing operation. The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water; the rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water, but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the reinforcer. So the yuck meter for Isabelle is totally blown out. So you have to take into account what is the establishing operation for her—and it might be that what do you do to make this time guilt-free or how you set it up to make it yours. What can you do so you don’t feel bad for watching 3 hours when everyone gets home? That really rings a bell for Isabelle; it really connects for her around the challenge of what it means, to even sit down. She really doesn't ever sit down. She recovered from a fractured pelvis because she didn't sit enough. This means changing her relationship to resting or hitting the pause button and carving out the unique, new structure, when she is on her own, or has a lot of energy, or has the agency and privilege to exercise it. She has to change her establishing operation. David names that you have to give yourself the real reinforcement that you need, and not trick yourself into doing chores (that would normally ‘reward’ you with a different set up). Isabelle names that recent training with Hallowell and Ratey (see ADHD 2.0 book link below) is that rumination neural network in the brain is designed for creating problems, and another neural network runs when you’re not doing anything, and another neural network is task positive (you’re trying to do the thing). Now with neurotypical folx, you can flip a switch and go from one mode to another—you can choose! Like what a lot of therapy models use. But if you’re neurodivergent, the environment is what presses the levers, otherwise they’re all going at the same time. Isabelle recognized that the rumination network is always running, and how something about how she can’t switch the levers has to do with the fact that her environment for rest is not different from her environment for everything else (her home). She really needs external cue to signal to her that the thing you think you’re working with is different; she needs a solid external boundary to help with this. She needs to know when they take the water away. Otherwise she’ll keep working and not attend to herself. And she doesn’t know it changed. The rules don’t work anymore, it's not “you,” —maybe it’s everything else? Or is it maybelline?
Body Doubling: Someone else in the same room or within view of the person who is trying to get a task done—the other person doing the task creates the illusion of structure. In essence, a buddy is sits with you as you work on something (could be doing a task, or just quietly there, maybe giving you cues or reminders). In reference to in films, this term is used to describe a body double, or a stand in for lead actors in certain shots. Here are some basic ideas.
Establishing operation (EO): Depriving or altering the access to something to make it more enticing and rewarding. The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water, and rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water...but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the water, makes it more enticing and more 'rewarding' for the rat.
Reiserfeiber - “Literally translated, Reisefieber means “travel fever” – but it’s not the type of sickness that keeps you in bed. Reisefieber describes the feelings of excitement, combined with anxiety and nervousness, that you have in anticipation of a trip.”
-----
Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez
Technical Support by: Bobby Richards
Special Thanks to Huberman Lab. Andrew Huberman, you’d totally make our day if we ever sat next to you on a plane and you were in a chatty mood.
What is Something Shiny: ADHD!?
How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Isabelle:
Hello. I'm Isabelle, she, her, hers. And I'm David, he, him, his. And we're 2 therapists with ADHD who sit down to have some chats about ADHD. We can't promise we'll stay on topic or be professional or even remotely mature, but we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
Isabelle:
This is not a therapy session. This is something shiny.
David:
I love it. Do you
Isabelle:
like it?
David:
That's amazing. And can this just be the intro? You saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?
Isabelle:
Yeah. Can I
David:
you tapping your voice?
Isabelle:
That could be that could be our first intro. So without further ado, welcome to Something Shiny.
David:
I'm David.
Isabelle:
Well, here's a question. So is the idea that the win is then practicing to consistently, like so a win then in my head, right, would be instead of I got 10 little yucks done, look at me go, is more little yuck, and the win is that I then moved on. Here's a question because I will do the opposite where and and I think I wonder if this relates to, like, I know if this has to somehow relate to, like, how we're socialized too, you know, along gender lines and along, like, class line. Like, the whole shebang. Right?
Isabelle:
Because there is, like, an aspect to anytime there is a little yuck, I will do, like, 25 yucks in a row. Like, I can't stop myself. I, like, hyperfocus. What I mean is I see a little thing to tidy, and then I'm like, oh, I should also finish the dishes. Oh, I should also take out the oh, I also gotta fold the laundry.
Isabelle:
Like, it becomes a sequence, and it turn it's similar to that consignment sale. Like, that feels so autopiloted that I'm struggling with figuring out what a little yuck even is. I think as the more we talk, I think I initially thought what a little yuck is, and now I'm like, I don't know if I allow any little yucks. I think I turn everything into a big yuck. I can't help, David.
David:
No. No. No. No. No.
David:
I think you're doing everything right. This is where I like, let's think about, like, the amount of tasks people have during the day, like, the self care stuff. Yeah. That has to get done. Right?
David:
And then every every day, there's little optional things you can do for you. Right? That, like, we we often don't do in lieu of getting taking care of everything else.
Isabelle:
Yes.
David:
So, like, what are like, when, the the day before I'm going to, you know, going to Great America, You know, I'm I'm all I have that German word that I can't remember.
Isabelle:
Riser fever. Riser fever. Right. The reason I remember it is because I literally picture, like, yes, because you're rising to the
David:
So I did laundry as part of my riser fever.
Isabelle:
Mhmm.
David:
The only reason I did laundry was there was a pair of pants that I wanted to potentially wear. But, but I, I don't even know if I picked those pair of pants, just to be perfectly honest. But like I cleaned, I did my laundry just so that I would have that option later. And so then later while I was like getting ready and dressing and looking at my different options, I didn't think, oh, I should have done laundry. I could have had this pair of pants.
David:
The little yuck was like it definitely helped the house. It helps I don't only do my laundry. I didn't just do a pair of pants. Right? But, like, but that was for me.
David:
The timing of it was for me. I'd already done laundry the day before. I did laundry. Or I'm doing these dishes so that I can like, I do a little, like, speech at dinner. Right?
David:
So, like, the way I prep for speeches is I have to, like, think about them enough. I write I give myself bare bones. I write it out, and then I, like, tell it to myself a 1000000 times in my brain, but I need the space to do that. And so, like, jamming to music, listening to an audiobook, and, like, practicing my speech while I did dishes was another little yuck that I was able to do. But it's all the same energy level for me.
David:
Dishes didn't need to get done. We we there was nothing on the today's to do list of, like, dishes are impeding our life. I just did it so I could keep moving my hands.
Isabelle:
Oh, okay. So here's here's, sorry. My brain is, like, kinda catching up, but I just think I I I'm just gonna name it. I just think this is, like, a huge blind spot for me. I really don't know that I I think and I don't I can't be alone in this.
Isabelle:
Right? But, like, I don't know that I permit myself to just do a little yawg because there's just so much to do kind of vibe. Right? Like so here's what I'm hearing you say. What I'm hearing you say is it's like you've done away with the big load of to do list, and you're not plugging away at it and like, oh, okay.
Isabelle:
I made a little dent. It's more, I have a lot of energy, and so I'm just gonna flow with it, and I'm gonna do a thing, and then I'm gonna return to something else I enjoy, then I'm gonna do a little bit. So, actually, I think the thing that I don't have much skill at is stopping. Like, the skill for me, I think I need to work on is not the doing the yuck. It's the pausing and returning to a little yum.
David:
Wait. No. You're not you're not no. Because, like, the way you describe that is totally like I'm hearing it. I'm like, you're at you're accurately reflecting what I'm saying, but but I'm not saying this right then.
David:
They just got
Isabelle:
to Okay. Okay. So never mind.
David:
We're we're right. We're right. So when you said to do list, like, I do not have a written to do list. I have, my life is routine oriented. I have a certain day off every week.
David:
On that day off, I have these definable tasks that I expect myself to kinda do. Right? Like, I clean the cat box. I'll get laundry ready. I'll do, like, I'll do a couple different tasks around the house or, like, if there's a legal project.
David:
Like, those things get done on my day off. And typically, my intervention with that is I call my friend who's also doing chores, and we talk for, like, an hour to while I'm doing
Isabelle:
Oh, that's the best.
David:
Body doubling. Right? Okay.
Isabelle:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
David:
But not on my day off. I don't have all these routine chores in a day. I don't. But what I did have was a bunch of this excitement and anxiety on not my day off, but a different day. And I was like, oh my god.
David:
What do I do? I'm not gonna try to do a new thing.
Isabelle:
Oh. Oh, you literally held back from, like,
David:
going on
Isabelle:
the rails.
David:
Yeah. Yeah. I just I just went and did, like, I I'd already done I'd already done dishes. I'd already like, this is where, like but but, like, the things that hadn't been done, I could do again, or I could just, like, polish the thing. Alright.
David:
Does this make sense differently?
Isabelle:
Yeah. Well, it's yeah. It's like the to me okay. This is where I'm going. I'm thinking about how different it feels to me.
Isabelle:
I'm not a fan of cooking, but anytime there's a big holiday, I do enjoy suddenly cooking, and I realized the big or baking, and the big distinction is, oh, it's because I can do it at my leisure, and I don't have that feeling of I have to for, like because I will I were I've, like, learned to never commit to make a food for a thing because that does not serve me. I don't like it. I stress out. It makes it harder. But instead, what we do is, like, we'll have a tradition where it's like, well, what's everyone's favorite food?
Isabelle:
Let's make it. Or, like, what are you craving this week? Like, we kinda embrace that more. And then suddenly, the thing that's a chore is not a chore to me, and I enjoy it because I'm able to like spin it my way. So here's I'm gonna back up and say what I meant about the rhythm with the little yum and yuck.
Isabelle:
2 things that come to my awareness. And I'm not saying this to make myself into, like, some awful martyr. This is of my doing as much as it is, I think, an executive functioning struggle in having kids and managing life and working parent. Like, it's just the whole thing. I think the load put on us as humans is way too much, and then with executive functioning stuff, it feels extra hard to organize.
Isabelle:
I'm not gonna lie, David. You described that day off, and I had this, like, almost like my sort of salivating. I was like, what is that like? And I'm not saying that because, again, woe is me. I'm just saying, like, oh, I don't know that I have carved out time like that for myself in a very long beeping time.
Isabelle:
So I could see how this is partly, I think, why I'm missing this boat is because it's like, I don't know that I have that experience of time and have practiced giving myself that experience of time enough to reset.
David:
Isabelle, but I was also like, my boat is like a pretty privileged boat with a lot of free time. No. No.
Isabelle:
And I'm I'm but I mean this. I'm not saying this. I I I don't think it's, like, just about the kids part. Okay. Sorry.
Isabelle:
Go ahead.
David:
But but but it is, actually. So so let's let's actually kind of think about that for a second because I don't wanna I don't want anyone listening to think like I am a super person because that's not the point here.
Isabelle:
Yeah.
David:
It's I'm very aware of how much time is taken from somebody around childcare and child rearing. And, like, the idea that it takes a community is a wonderful saying, but I don't often see that. I see parents doing everything.
Isabelle:
Yeah.
David:
And you you often have to choose between doing everything you need and do or doing everything your child needs. You can't do both. And I think, like, it is a very what I noticed that our messages from society is you're not allowed to take care of you. No. And the other message I hear is if you're not taking care of everyone else, you're a bad person.
David:
And, like, specific to, like and this falls around different cultural, gender, sex lines. Like like, this is
Isabelle:
Oh, this is like I'm gonna put it out there. This is very much more a mom thing, I think, than a dad thing. Like, it is that double standard of, oh my gosh. His dad took the kids to the playground. What a good dad.
Isabelle:
The moms at the playground, but they didn't bring snacks and several changes of clothing knowing it would be muddy that day.
David:
Oh. It's You
Isabelle:
it's I'm not thinking anyone's ever said that to me, but, like, yes, there is a total double standard.
David:
So, like, when we're talking about trying to find a little yuck in your life, I don't think there's the same equation that I'm dealing with. I have a lot more agency in my life.
Isabelle:
That's true. Well, let's put it this way. You have a lot potentially a lot more, agency in, and less consistent distraction. Like, think of it this way. Like, in my in my world, no matter what I wanna do, there is several agents of chaos that will enter and will immediately be rerouted to priority because their foot is bleeding profusely Right.
Isabelle:
Or they have not eaten or they.
David:
It doesn't matter that it's 3 o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday. You're needed to
Isabelle:
be a better tomorrow. Or they literally need you to it. Cause in that moment they have to go to the bath room, and then they need your help doing a thorough wipe, for example, because that has been a recent thing we're learning. So there's just like, you know, it's like it's like there's never, yeah, there's just not enough time to feel the luxury of, hi. I have a lot of energy.
Isabelle:
Where is it gonna go? This is the thing. Side note, David, can I give you, like, a vivid example here? Because I saw this meme recently, and I'll put in the show notes. It's brilliant.
Isabelle:
It shows and it's specifically a woman, but let's put anyone in this role who's felt this way. I don't think just parents at all fall into this bucket. But she's just ushered, like, her family out the door, and then the door closes and it just shows, okay, so I finally have time to myself. What do I do? Do I just sit and stare at a wall, or do I panic clean?
Isabelle:
And it just kinda shows her standing there. Like, I mean this when I say that I think is maybe also connected to ADHD a little bit and the inattentive part of me, right, or the part that really struggles with decisions. The overwhelm when that constant demand on my attention in the form of a small child is gone is absolutely staggering. Like, I don't it's like I don't know what to do with myself because I've just been what if what if instead we called it, it's like a Volley of little yucks all the time. The Volley stops, and suddenly you're like, oh, wait.
Isabelle:
I have choice again? Why on God's green earth would I choose a yuck then, David? Help me.
David:
Help me. You you you wouldn't. You you wouldn't. No. And I think, like, that's the thing.
David:
Like, this is where I think we have to look at, like I'm gonna go I'm gonna go really complicated behaviorally.
Isabelle:
Yes. Go for it.
David:
There's this thing called the establishing operation that's always important to think about. This is for every therapist out there, every person that wants to know, like, why things work. The establishing operation sets the reinforcing effectiveness for the reinforcer. I know that makes no sense. But what but what it means is when you when you set the reinforcing effectiveness is water like, when we're in rat lab, this is something in undergrad when you when you have a little rat and, like, you're training it to do different things.
David:
It's this Skinner box, it's called. You reward this rat with a little, like, little droplet of water comes up out of the floor.
Isabelle:
A little,
David:
like, push a button and a droplet of water comes up. And the rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water. But here's the thing, rats don't naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water for 24 hours before the rat goes in the cage so that the reinforcing effectiveness of water is so much higher. Now it's dehydrated.
David:
Oh my god. Give me the water. I'll do anything for water. Right? The establishing operation changes the reinforcing effectiveness of the reinforcer.
David:
I know. But now that makes more sense.
Isabelle:
That makes total sense. Sorry. My mind is blown. Okay.
David:
So for you Yeah. Your yuck meter is blown out. There's no, like, there's no semblance of, like, of yuck. But I think another way of talking about this for, like, like, this level of, like, I don't know if we talk about societal conditioning or, like, this level of, like, burnout or this level of, like, whatever.
Isabelle:
Yeah. We can call that. Mhmm.
David:
Yeah. I think I think it becomes important to think about, like, when do you get your time? This is different.
Isabelle:
Mhmm.
David:
And what do you do before your time starts so it feels guilt free?
Isabelle:
Mhmm.
David:
And now we're adequately talking about a little little leeok. Is that you cleaning that counter so that you can watch every Netflix episode for the next 3 hours, and when everyone gets home, you won't feel bad?
Isabelle:
Oh, that feels so good. What you Do
David:
you see, like, a little
Isabelle:
young I love that. I love that so much. That feels so different to me. Okay. I don't know why that feels so different to me, but you know what it does?
Isabelle:
That that feels like Zen. That captures that experience of I'm doing a little yuck for me Yes. Versus I'm doing a little yuck because goodness my house is gonna fall apart and we're all out of clean underwear. It's like, oh, guess what? I like, oh, I so see the change in my head.
Isabelle:
Side note, this really wreck this really connects for me around the challenge of what it means at least. Like, as long as I know I've known my my parents, my mom in particular never sat down. That's how her neurodivergence appeared. I am very similar. I am, like, never sitting.
Isabelle:
When I I don't wanna fracture my pelvis a couple years back. I extra didn't sit because it that was the thing that hurt, and, like, I recovered so quickly, but also didn't to the point where the doctor's like, you actually have to sit more. Like, are you sitting? Do you, like like, you kinda need more weight bearing in those at the heart, and that that will heal over time. I'm like, oh my gosh.
Isabelle:
You're right. I say this to say, this gives me a very different relationship to what it means to practice pausing, and I call it stopping, but, like, maybe another way to call it is resting. Like, what I mean is pausing hitting the pause button on on my endless to use, hitting my pause button on all the things that have to get done
David:
Mhmm.
Isabelle:
And, like, carving out a unique new structure for time when I am on my own or I do have a lot of energy and I am with blessed with the agency and the privilege and the freedom to to exercise it, I cannot apply the same thing I do to every other moment in time to that time. I have to change my establishing condition principle.
David:
Operation.
Isabelle:
Operation. Even better.
David:
You you need to, like, give yourself the real reinforcement that you need and not trick yourself into feeling better for doing more chores that you already don't wanna do.
Isabelle:
Yes.
David:
You won't feel better if you push through all the pain and get everything done because you have to start again tomorrow.
Isabelle:
Can I ask I feel like this actually sort of explains such a large portion of my life? I'm, like, almost gonna burst into tears. How? I feel like this is something okay. So I was I was, so I've been I think I shared.
Isabelle:
I've been doing this, like, really intensive ADHD training late lately. And I was listening to, of course, the beloved Ed Halliwell and John Rady describing all their magic. Oh my gosh.
David:
All we
Isabelle:
gotta we gotta we gotta do, like, several episodes just on that, by the way. So great. But, point is is, they were talking about how, you know, we have the rumination network in our brain, like neural network. So imagine there's, like, a part of your brain, and here's the thing that blew my mind. Its job is not to solve problems.
Isabelle:
Its job is to create problems. That alone made a big difference for me. I'm like, that is accurate. Its job is to create problems, and it's just practicing problem solving. That's all it's doing.
David:
Yeah.
Isabelle:
But the way it does that is by continuing to introduce new problems. And so imagine that's, like, one neural network, right, when we ruminate. Then there's a neural network that happens when we're in the default mode. You know? Like, we're literally just, like, wait waiting music.
Isabelle:
Like, what are you doing when you're not doing anything? Which is interesting. And then there's task positive, which is the, I am now deciding I want to do a thing, and I'm consciously trying to do the thing. So the thing they were saying is neurodivergence is, like, imagine that for neurotypical folk, you've got, like, little levers and you can kind of choose which network you pop into. Or if you're caught in 1, it's you can use, like, your executive functioning essentially to, like, flip a switch and get into another.
Isabelle:
This is where all the therapy is based on. Like, this is a CBT. This is, like, all the stuff that I remember learning about in grad school and being like, that is such a cool idea in theory. There is no way on God's greater that will ever work for me. That will never work.
Isabelle:
I know because it doesn't. That's not how my brain feels. So what they say is like, actually, with neurodivergence, part of what happens is there are no levers. There are no boundaries. You're always in all of them.
Isabelle:
Like, literally on a brain scan, your default mode does not stop firing when you're doing task positive work. This is the experience of, like, you always have a 100 things hitting at the same time. Right?
David:
Maybe I'm wrong with this because you just went to the train, but what I what I thought too is that, the presence of potential consequence or threat is the thing that increases attention. So the environment so they're all on at all times, but it's the environment that dictates almost like what lever is automatically pressed, not what you can do.
Isabelle:
Exactly. That's the distinction is you use your environment to press the lever. Mhmm. Right? Like, you use your environment to press your levers because you cannot do it internally.
Isabelle:
Whereas a lot of the world expects you can and then gets mad at you when you can't. And it's like, no. I actually need the things around me to do it for me. Exactly right. Okay.
Isabelle:
Yes. I mean, exactly right. That totally tracks with with the whole thing. So oh god, why was I on this tangent? Oh, I was connected so much.
David:
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Isabelle:
No. No. No. No. No.
Isabelle:
No. This is
David:
were talking about new learning, task positive network, being distracted. We were talking about
Isabelle:
The establishing operation.
David:
Mhmm.
Isabelle:
I had that realization that connected to me with my with rumination, for example. Right? Which is, oh, this part of me is, like, always generating problems. Oh, okay. And, again, problem is not is a bad thing.
Isabelle:
Just it's always troubleshooting, nonexistent trouble. It's like, where's the trouble? Where's the trouble? Where's the trouble? As you say this, what I think about is how I think this something about this, how I can't like, my brain I'm showing people can't see, but I'm showing all of these different networks in my head exist in different places in space and time, and I'm using my hand to gesture very wildly at them.
Isabelle:
And it's so important to me.
David:
In the air. Yes.
Isabelle:
I just want you to see what I'm doing. Point is is I just think that that connects to me where I really need external help to cue me that there is a new establishing operation. Does that make sense? Like, I need an external cue to signal to me, oh, this the thing you think you're working with is actually different. You need to know it's different and stop applying old rules.
Isabelle:
Like, I need a solid external boundary to help me with this. Does
David:
that make
Isabelle:
any sense?
David:
Yes. You're saying you need to know when they take the water away.
Isabelle:
Yes. I need to know.
David:
Know that water is more important later because you keep working and not attend to yourself.
Isabelle:
Exactly. And I walk around starving all the time, and I just assume that is always gonna be the case. Like, it's it's like this. It's it's it's like that idea of the rules you think you've set for yourself no longer work, and you're like, why don't they work? It must be me.
Isabelle:
When it's like, well, let's pause. Has everything else changed?
David:
Maybe it's not you. Maybe it's Maybelline. But what I mean by that is the environment, but like, sorry. It's a terrible that's an old.
Isabelle:
But no, this is the best part, David. Do you know what the, the thing, the twist in what you said is the, the, the commercial is maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline, which relates to neurodivergence, actually. Maybe she's born with this.
David:
Maybe it's Maybelline.
Isabelle:
Yeah. Maybelline. Yeah. Yeah. Side note, they make a really solid, mascara.
Isabelle:
Needless plug, they're not I'm not getting kickbacks. I just really they're great lashes. One of the best mascaras out there. I say with no authority, just my own lived experience.
David:
Thank you so much for listening. If you ever had that thought where you think, hey, I'm nothing. Stop. Remember, yourself. Something's
Isabelle:
shiny. That's right. Just as you are. If you like what you heard and you want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts. We're on Instagram as something shiny podcast.
Isabelle:
And if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at something shinypodcast.com, and it's all free. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in 2 weeks.