Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Hey, Paul.

Good morning.

Good morning, Tom.

Welcome back.

We have taken a little, I've been
traveling, so it's been a couple

of weeks since we since we did this
podcast, but it's I've been missing it.

I've been missing it.

Yeah.

I remember.

I don't know how you're feeling.

I remember after traveling a bunch.

There were times where it felt
a little bit, I felt a little

bit like Marcus not wanting to
get up in the morning and do it.

But but no, I've been really missing it
recently and waiting for you to get back.

Hey excited to be back.

And it's funny you mentioned Marcus not
wanting to get up in the morning because

a thing that, that I did while I was on
break and I've been enjoying is reading

a book or listening to a book called the
Socrates Express, which by a guy named

Eric Wiener, which I'm really enjoying
and it's what it is like a sort of little

like he's a guy who's interested in
philosophy and it's history and knows

a bunch about different philosophers
and he's like writing a bunch of.

He the express aspect is that he's
writing a bunch of different trains in

different places around the world just
because he loves being on trains and

just like narrating his experiences as
they relate to different philosophers

and along the way you get this
kind of like tour of the history of

philosophy or something like that.

So the very first chapter, I'm, I bring
this up is because he is struggling to

get out of bed on his like sleeper train.

He's like under the blankets
in his little bunk or whatever.

And the philosopher he's thinking about
and talking about is Marcus Aurelius.

So it was fun, fun for
me that he started there.

I was historical.

Is he saying that, I guess my
question for you is that just

his interpretation for this book?

Or is that like us, we missed
the fact that Marcus is actually.

known to be much lazier than
maybe you and I have prescribed.

That was what was interesting
me to me about this, because

I didn't know that before.

But he does say that Marcus
apparently it's known that

he didn't wake up until 11 a.

or something.

He just rose super late and that.

Which was, I think, it would be
exceptionally late now, but was even

more exceptionally late back in the day.

Most Romans, especially in the military
were rising with the sun or whatever,

which he doesn't devote a ton
of time talking about this,

but he presents that as a fact.

As just, we all know that.

This was, yeah, a thing that is
known about Marcus Aurelius is

that he would sleep until 11am.

And then it's pointed out that was
basically like a legacy of his privileged

upbringing, basically, that because he was
so rich growing up, he as a kid could just

sleep until or a teenager or whatever.

He always slept until 11.

And then he just never.

Then he becomes emperor
at 14 or whatever it is.

And so he's just the emperor who's a
teenager and still sleeps until 11, wow.

Wow.

Which is Wow.

Yes, a reminder both of how privileged
and different he is from the average Roman

and also how young he is, I think, the
fact that he even wants to sleep until 11.

Yeah.

Can you imagine if someone told
you, you have to like, stay in

bed until 11, it's like torture.

Yeah, totally.

I was going to ask you about that.

We'll say, yeah.

So one thing that made me realize is that
in some ways we're doing this podcast

all wrong because if what we're trying
to do is get into Marcus's headspace,

we, our tradition is to record this.

Yeah.

Almost first thing when we wake up
at 7 in the morning or whatever,

which is exactly when Marcus least
wanted to be awake and around.

Oh man, this, there's part
of me that feels duped.

I think I was, I've been trying so hard
to, at every turn, give Marcus the benefit

of the doubt and treat him like this,
stoic, quote unquote amazing leader who

just, yes, he talks about how it's hard to
get up in the morning, but it's in context

of the fact that he gets up at four in the
morning every day for the past 30 years.

And that it's still hard, I thought
it was one of those stories.

It's 10 30 and it's so hard.

I agree.

It's a revelation for
me too, but I do think.

It's clarifying for us with
there's there has been one question

where we discuss back and forth.

To what extent do we think Marcus
really lives the philosophy that

he's espousing here versus is it
an aspirational document that much?

It sounds to me like we're
getting Oh, it's aspirational.

Or yeah, he's the kind of guy.

The impression I get now is he's
the kind of guy who really likes

thinking through what it would
mean to be a really good emperor.

Possibly at the expense
of actually doing it.

Being a good emperor.

Yes.

Yeah.

Wow.

This is a huge revelation.

Yeah.

Oh man.

Nope.

It doesn't take away.

It'll be interesting.

I'm definitely going to
read it through that lens.

Yes.

Starting I, I don't.

Yeah.

Okay.

So a very like Extreme
reaction we could have is wow.

Marcus is basically a
spoiled child, right?

That is, I think the tempting
thing to do with this piece of

information, but here's the thing.

I'll say that Socrates express author
is still very impressed with Marcus.

He still really thinks Marcus is a great
philosopher and very important thinker.

And, Sue to other people whom we.

Yeah.

Respect.

So I don't think we should just
say, oh wait, Marcus is a fraud.

He's a, whatever.

Yeah.

Okay.

He might get up at 11am, but
he still has to deal with

some shit when he does get up.

And the way Eric Wiener in this
book frames that, which I is

like, Marcus is grappling with.

In a way, one of the most fundamental
philosophical questions there is

and I think he says that I forget
some French philosopher said that

basically all philosophy should
either deal with the question of

suicide or it's a waste of time.

Like that philosophy should just be
about should I kill myself or no or

philosophy is a waste of time and
whatever class winner says is Marcus

is like a slightly softer version
of that if you don't accept that.

You could still accept that a very
important philosophical question is,

should I get out of bed in the morning?

That is one of the questions that
should be at the heart of philosophy.

Yeah.

And Marcus is his favorite
thinker on that question.

Should I get out of bed in the morning?

And it's just, yes, it's my duty.

Yeah.

Yes.

Interesting.

So I guess what we can do is we
can trust that this guy has thought

through it from first principles.

Yes.

Yeah.

Cause clearly he, he is making a choice
here and it sounds as an emperor,

he doesn't have to get up before 11.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So maybe more than anyone else in the
history of humankind, he has really

grappled with the, is it worth it for
me to get out of bed this morning?

Cause I don't have, no
one can make me right.

Cause the U S president like
has meetings or something, or

they're going to lose reelection.

Or they're going to lose.

They could sleep through their
meeting, but they're going to they're

going to pay a price if they do that.

Marcus could probably just
stay in bed for days at a time

without really any consequences.

So he has grappled as intensely
with this question as anyone.

And I see, apparently he still
chose to get out of bed at 11 AM.

So which, which means whatever
philosophical findings he arrived at,

Yeah, they didn't make him wake up
at 5 a so what's he right so and then

he's writing this because he Loves to
just he loves to think through things.

Yeah, that's his vibe.

He just he wants to make sure he's
He like really savors the chewing

through the, life decisions.

Yeah, I get, I, yeah, part of me
makes it more sympathetic or we've had

this, we've had this concept of him
as somebody for whom the like actual

work of being emperor is drudgery.

And it's oh, all these people come to
me and they've got fucking problems

and they're so annoying that this.

This cements that for me that I
think it really seems like the actual

work of it was boring and he needed
something to keep it interesting

for himself and philosophy was.

What he, how he did that and
maybe he was staying up until 5 a.

Every night or whatever scribbling
little stuff Thinking through perfect

little sentences that he was gonna put
in his journal, yeah interesting Yeah.

All right.

I'm excited to apply that lens.

I have one more question for you in
this vein that I, it got me thinking

about, which is, again, there's
this the bed question in, as Eric

Weiner puts it in philosophy, should
I get out of bed in the morning?

Yeah.

How much do you really struggle with that?

Just honestly.

No, yeah.

Is it hard for you to get
out of bed in the morning?

Is it often hard for you to
get out of bed in the morning?

Yeah, me neither.

No, yeah.

I'm usually just very I, what I
dread is laying around because

it's like frustrating and I
sweat and I don't like it.

So what's your conscience?

You want to get out of bed?

Yeah.

I just want to get out.

Yeah.

I guess it feels like a,
either a childhood thing.

I think I, I did feel
that way at some point.

As a teenager.

Yeah.

As a teenager.

Yeah.

And, I don't know.

So like on weekends Zupasno will,
it's like a delicious thing.

I'm gonna sleep in.

On a Saturday she can stay in bed.

But it's.

Even she, and she like, this is her,
she'll set aside the time to have this

deliciously long lazy morning, but
even she gets a little bored of it,

she would want to do that every day.

So yeah so what are you trying to get at?

You're basically saying.

I have that.

I have this feeling too.

And so maybe it's just because,
yeah, whatever, we either feel that

there are demands on our time or
whatever that make it not, we feel

guilty staying in bed or something.

It's just, Marcus seems to be so
tempted by staying in bed all day.

Why don't we feel that is that's
the question I'm trying to ask.

I guess, like we have jobs
and stuff or whatever.

Sure.

Of course, the nature of our
jobs could just be different.

So yeah.

Okay.

But as you point out, we have weekends.

Even on weekends, you and I don't
choose to linger in bed for no reason.

I don't totally have a grasp
on why it's more tempting

for Marcus than it is for us.

We're like 10 years older than the guy.

Yeah, I guess that's it.

It's just an age thing.

He's, yes, let us never forget
that he's basically a teenager.

Yeah, so why do we get
out of bed on a Saturday?

I guess it's, I don't even think it's
even if I had no responsibilities,

I would still get it's like more
enjoyable, selfishly better to get up.

I feel like I'm
enthusiastic to go do stuff.

I want to be alive and
have experiences and stuff.

He might be clinically depressed.

This is a thing if you're
actually suffering depression,

you don't want to get out of bed.

Yeah.

So there's a, yeah, that's
an interesting lens.

And that a lot of this writing
is maybe him convincing himself

that all this stuff is worth it.

Yeah.

He's you're trying to justify, try to get
through muddle through the fact that he

has suffered some, chemical imbalances.

Yeah.

And that brings me back to our friend
I'm spacing out his name, but the

guy who's lecture, we watched at
the beginning of talking about him

being the loneliest man in the world.

Yeah.

I mean, and then there is of
course the angle that's we're

just, we're small minded.

Peasantry, like we don't make, we
don't think about these things to the

degree that, you know, someone who
was brought up to question everything

in the, in this philosophical era
and who had the power to do whatever

they wanted, like just everything
is reexamined from first principles.

And we just don't think at that level
that is, there's an angle like that.

Does that persuade you, do you feel
persuaded by that line of thinking?

To some degree, because I feel like just
even we take a bunch of stuff for granted

that doesn't really make any sense.

Like jobs.

Yeah.

Jobs don't.

I don't know.

Like, why?

Why do we like nine to
five, like every day?

What?

Or like why?

Yeah.

So I think there are just so many
things that we take for granted

and that cultural things like, you
I have been told that it's good to

arrive on time and all these things.

And I just take it for granted.

And it turns out all of
that is just arbitrary.

Yeah.

Uh, so I actually do think it's possible
that we're like it's a way to it's a

methodology to protect yourself from
the chaos and potential sadness of

the world to just not make decisions.

Yeah.

But I think we probably
are guilty of that.

Yeah.

Interesting.

In some ways that, that.

Is a, it's a funny way of praising
modern society that it like protects

them by giving us so much stuff to
do and keeping us busy and whatever.

We end up maybe being happier than
somebody who really has, who has all

the free time in the world to sit there
and grapple with, if is any of this

worth it or, purposeful, this is like
the stereotype of the curse of being a

child of like really wealthy parents.

It's you're going to have
a really hard life because.

You've got a lot of choices.

Yeah.

And and they really are choices . Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

So yes, maybe we're, the two of us
are just happy little drones who

can't really see what the Queen
Bee is thinking about or whatever.

Yeah.

Okay.

Lots of new.

I think fodder for thinking about
what's going on in Marcus's mind

as we read his entries here.

Yeah, okay.

Isn't it lovely, by the way,
I just want to point out.

I find it remarkable that seven chapters
and 30 episodes in or whatever we are,

we can still be learning new stuff
about this guy and He's still such an

enigma to us that we're like, Oh, now
we understand what Marcus is about.

And it, I don't know.

I just feel like That is crazy.

Yeah.

It's crazy how little we
actually know about the guy.

Like I've done, I've tried to do
research on this and it's just, no

one really, like he lived so long ago.

It's Part of it is like, it's a puzzle
where we don't know, we just don't know

the fundamentals and we're trying to
piece it together through this three

layers of abstraction writing that he did.

Yes, isn't it interesting the way
an important old guy like that

can turn into a puzzle, like a
really interesting puzzle today.

It's not obvious to me why that
should be the way that things work.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah.

Cool.

Okay.

Let's give him a try.

I have to remember which entry we're on.

We're in book 7.

I think it's 28?

Yes.

I agree.

28.

All right.

Number 28.

Self contraction.

The mind's requirements are
satisfied by doing what we should

and by the calm it brings us.

All right.

Okay.

So why is it get out of bed?

Yeah.

I actually read this as being about
the thing we were just talking about.

Yeah.

It's like the drone is happier than
the queen or something because like

as long as the drone is doing the
thing that a drone is supposed to do.

It's pretty good.

We're chill with that.

The calm it brings us is an
interesting phrase for Marcus to use.

I don't really remember him talking about,
he talks about why we should do the things

that were our duty or match our nature or
whatever, but I don't, I can't remember

him actually specifically mentioning
that it calms us down to do those things.

In the past.

Yeah, he tends not to, he tends not to
phrase it in like benefit to the person

as much, or he'll do that sometimes.

Yeah.

Which is more like how we think today.

Yes, I agree.

And it, it seems like specifically it,
it feels like not just how we think.

In the 21st century, but how we
think in 2024 specifically to

me, because it almost seems like
he's Hey, are you having anxiety?

Here's a hack for fixing your anxiety.

It's the first time where I've
detected in his writing that

he might be a little anxious.

The fact that he's, Oh,
yeah, He's super anxious.

Yeah, for sure.

I I guess you mean you've seen you're
distinguishing that from depression.

Is that what you're saying?

Definitely.

I think those are different impulses.

I definitely see him as possibly having
depressive tendencies, but I haven't

noticed, I say that's true as much.

This one seems like it is
perhaps relating to anxiety.

That's true.

One of the things that this.

I feel like we're constantly learning
about him is that I don't think it's the

right, I don't think it's right to read
meditations iron clad set of theoretical

philosophical axles and theorems.

Yeah.

And it's just yeah it's just musings
along, along the way and it's,

they'll contradict each other.

And that's the whole beauty of it.

It's like both are true.

And he just, In order to explore
that, he just writes both down.

Yep.

Yes.

Cause I, yeah, I agree.

I think that's lovely.

I actually think like that on some
level, that's very dissatisfying to

us as a reader, because wouldn't it
be great if he could just hand us the

answer on a plate, but like the truth
is something closer to either both are

true in a way that is complicated or he
doesn't know which one is true and he's

working it out in front of us, but we
learn via his method of working it out.

Yeah.

Cause I'm reading ahead to 29 and it's
just gonna straight up contradict this.

Okay.

Great.

Troll versus queen concept.

Let's just jump right to it.

Number 29, discard your misperceptions.

Stop being jerked like a puppet.

Limit yourself to the present.

Understand what happens to you, to
others, analyze what exists, break

it all down, material and cause.

Anticipate your final hours.

Other people's mistakes.

Leave them to their makers.

Okay.

So now he's back to the very
kind of intense analytical,

think as first principles, your
job is to understand everything.

Yeah.

Just the exact opposite of
satisfied by doing what we should.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Okay maybe not the exact topic.

Yeah.

Maybe that's the nuance that's
missing through abstraction.

What's the intersection in the
Venn diagram between 28 and 29?

It's referring to something that's
like being jerked, like a puppet.

That's bad.

Yeah.

Yes.

And then that thing that he is
referring to, which is should be

not should also satisfy something
that should, we should not be doing.

Yes, something in life causes us
to misunderstand what we should be

doing or people trick us or whatever
else we somehow end up deceived.

And then.

We don't end up doing
the things we should do.

And then we have anxiety attacks
or whatever, because we're, our

mind is like, this isn't what
we're supposed to be doing.

Yeah.

Cause I originally, I read
this as you know what?

It's okay to be jerked.

Like it's okay to let.

Life take you down the path that
it will, which is, the positive

way of spinning jerk like a puppet.

But I guess he doesn't mean that stuff.

Yes, he means other stuff.

Jerk like a puff.

I agree that, yeah.

Jerk like a puppet
especially is a little bit.

It's in between where yes, you could
interpret it as just yeah, that's life

We're just like part of being human is
that like life jerks you like a puppet

here I think it feels like it makes
more sense in the context of the other

sentences to be like that he means jerks
like a puppet by other human beings or

right by something that is trying to Yeah,
by other people's mistakes, basically.

Other people's mistakes.

Jerk you around like a puppet.

Don't let them.

Yeah.

Yes.

But when he gets into this mode,
I he has had these entries in

the past too, where he's like,
all right, understand everything.

Analyze everything from everyone's
perspective and make sure

they, you know what they know.

Yeah.

Think it through from
everyone's perspective all the

time before doing anything.

Yeah.

That is the opposite of self contraction.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Yes, exactly.

Yes.

There is still a contradiction there in
this his whole thing in general is the

thing is the scope of things you can
control as a human is very small and stuff

outside of that, you should stop worrying
about so much because you can't control.

But then he's also Oh my God,
it's terrifying to be alive.

I need to understand the whole world.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

He's this is, it's an expression
of fear that we're seeing here.

I think in 29 that it's I
need to understand everything

because I'm so powerless.

Yeah.

Limit yourself to the present.

Is I don't know exactly, 7 29 is a little
bit all over the place, but limit yourself

to the present is in line with 28.

That is a contraction.

Yeah.

Yes, I agree.

20, it almost feels like it doesn't
belong with the other sentences.

No in this.

Yeah.

For instance, number six is anticipate
your final hours, which does not feel

like limiting yourself to the press.

No, exactly.

That's the opposite.

That is funny.

Yeah, he's trying to figure it out, man.

He's trying to figure
out the question of life.

I think he is having a panic
attack in these, oh man, yeah

yeah, 28 he's Convincing himself.

He can calm himself down with his
mind and 29 feels like he is really

he's giving himself a bunch of,
imperative commands to chill out.

Basically.

Yeah.

Okay.

Hang in there, Marcus.

What do you got going on?

Number 30 to direct your thoughts to what
is said to focus the mind on what happens.

And what makes it happen?

Whoa.

To focus the mind on what
happens and what makes it happen.

I guess I read this as
a continuation of 29.

He's trying to calm himself down.

Yeah.

And he's trying to, I think the
thread is contract and limit yourself

to the present, even though he does
maybe unknowingly contradict himself.

But let's just assume
that's what he meant.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Generously, this is the first sentence
is just listen direct your thoughts to

what it said means listen very presently.

Yeah, instead of, because the, I think
the, what this is in opposition to is try

to make assumptions around the underlying
thought process of other people and

it's no just listen to what they say and
just take them, take it at face value.

Yeah.

Yes, I agree.

It seems like advice to avoid
spiraling out of control here when

you're like, okay, someone said
something and now I have a billion

implications to think through.

Yeah.

Careful with that.

Okay.

Deep breaths, Marcus.

Deep breaths.

Number 31.

Wash yourself clean with simplicity,
with humility, with indifference

to everything but right and wrong.

Care for other human beings.

Follow God.

Wow.

Wow, he's Follow God.

Have a guy.

It's Which one?

I don't Yeah.

But I don't know.

I guess he's Yeah, okay.

I don't know what he
means by follow God, but

Yeah, I agree.

Interesting.

I wonder if that's a translation thing.

Yeah.

Yes.

I think every time I see, especially
a capital G God in this text,

I'm always like big asterisk.

Who knows what he actually
said in the original text.

Yeah.

It's almost follow morality or something.

Yeah.

Like I, I like, I think that.

That's probably a closer translation with
what he's saying above about indifference

to everything but right and wrong.

Seems yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Just think morally.

Yeah.

Wash yourself clean.

What is he?

He did something.

Something is torturing.

Yeah.

Clearly.

Something.

I see.

Wash yourself clean is a
different kind of angle on it.

Because my perspective was
he's just, he's laying in bed.

He's worried about, what other
people said about him or something,

or what people might say about him.

And he's obsessed with his legacy.

Yeah.

So he's saying no, like self contract
your mind, limit yourself to the present,

direct your thoughts to what is said.

Yeah, and wash yourself,
but wash yourself clean.

Sounds like he did.

He did something guilty.

Yeah, totally.

Yes, I agree that.

Okay, so maybe he made a mistake
and he's overanalyzing it.

Yeah, yes.

And it seems like maybe a part
of that mistake involved jumping

to conclusions somehow, right?

Where he Yeah, someone said
something and he got either misled

or Yeah, he misinterpreted them.

And then he made a bad.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

If that is what happened and it
seems reasonable enough hate his

process for dealing with it here.

If you're going to be feel guilty.

He goes through some like reminders about
how to deal with feelings like that.

And it's ultimately okay, bottom
line, remind yourself that what

matters is right versus wrong.

And being good to people.

So Tom, this is, so we're doing the
analysis the way that we would, if we

were like the way we used to before.

Okay.

So let me, before our shocking
revelation, before our revelation that

maybe he's just like a teenage crack.

So here's.

I don't know if I like this line
of thinking, but let me pitch

you on the cynical version.

So like someone is like, Hey,
listen, man, like you may want

to get up a little earlier.

The generals are trying to meet
in the morning and there is six

hours before you actually join.

And so it's hard to deal with this stuff.

And he's like really trying to
justify like why he should like

not listen to this, like me, just
like general, like wishing advice.

And so he's got all these things,
he's limit yourself understand what,

analyze what exists, break it down,
material and cause um, wash yourself

clean of the guilt of sleeping until 11.

Hey dude, like maybe you should
just get up a little earlier.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Or even more cynically, he could
be prescribing this, all these

imperatives to somebody else,
to someone who's not him, right?

Like 29, there's could be Oh, Mr.

General who has come to my
tent to wake me up at 10 a.

I see.

You think you're doing good work, but
actually you have been mis Like, you're

getting manipulated by I see, by society.

Or by, yeah, whatever pernicious
forces exist in the ranks.

And yeah.

You need to reevaluate life.

Yeah.

That's, and you'll realize
that I am not to be disturbed.

Exactly, yeah.

So the cynical version of this is always
that He's trying to justify something

that really is come on, man, don't if
he's like over analyzing, he's like really

in his head because we're prescribing
these momentous hard decisions.

And maybe his hard decision is
getting out of bed in the morning.

Yeah.

And not like, sentencing someone
to death because of, yes,

it's funny to think about what
the chronology of that would be.

Like, let's say that is how it works.

Somebody tries to wake him up in the
morning, half an hour before he wants

to be woken up or whatever, and he's mad
about it, and he spends all day thinking

about it, and then that night he goes back
to his tent, and he's still thinking about

it, and he writes a bunch of stuff down.

About like in the most
abstract terms possible.

Why was it bad that the person
did that to me this morning?

It seems very unlikely to me, but at the
same time, I also can't imagine being an

emperor and waking up at 11 AM every day.

So I don't know.

Yeah.

Yes, it's I guess I just don't
know the guy so I at this point.

I'm questioning everything.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I Find it easier to imagine an emperor who
wakes up at all so far I find it easier to

imagine the Emperor who wakes up at 11 a.

Who does think who clearly thinks That
he is better than he thinks he is.

Yeah, he clearly thinks he's better.

He does think he's better.

And so it seems to me like
that goes along with it is okay

for me to sleep in until 11.

Yeah.

Even though nobody else gets to.

Yeah.

But then also loves philosophy and
whatever and is maybe even feels knows

he thinks that he's better, but feels
guilty about it and tries to like,

some of the philosophy justify himself.

Yeah.

Or forgive himself or something.

Yeah.

Tries to deal with the fact
that he knows that some of the

stuff that he does is not great.

It is.

Yeah, I'm still hung up on this
because the way he is held up

as like the last great emperor
and all the it's not just this.

Yeah, it's his reputation overall as
just like the perfect emperor, basically.

He is so much held up that
way in the historical record.

It is hard to square that with.

Wakes up at 11 a.

every day, even if we just completely
forget this book in its entirety.

Yeah.

It's really impossible
with these grownupers.

It's just, it's entirely dependent
on who succeeded them and what they

wanted their dad's like image to be.

And so it's just whatever we don't know.

Yeah.

So we can just revel in the ambiguity.

Yeah.

Did they have 11 a.

I just wanna say like , how did that work?

Did I think they had sundials?

They had you have a Sund.

Okay.

They had Sund dials.

I wonder you, you must not
have had, I don't know.

There was definitely no sort of
like standard, obviously no time

zones or anything like that.

Nothing that coordinated that time.

You have like local
concepts of time, but okay.

This mil, there was some sort of military
concept of 11:00 AM locally or whatever.

You put a sundial on a hill or
whatever and it might, yeah, there

must be some way when you make.

When you make a new camp, 11 a.

might be plus or minus 30 minutes,
depending on the nature of the hill and

how it was pointed or whatever, but okay.

There was, it does, you are you
are pointing out, uh, not to keep

throwing more ambiguity into the
pile, but how do we know it was 11 a.

Says who, and what were the
incentives of that person?

Yeah.

I don't know if we go
down that road, though.

I think that is a bottomless it is.

We can get to a point of we don't
know anything about this guy.

So why?

Yeah, let's give up.

Yeah, I've been so far enjoying
the thought exercise of, like,

how can we square this guy?

He's thinking we, at least I really
do admire, even though he's human and

self contradicts himself and stuff.

Can we square that with a guy who wakes
up at 11am everyday despite having a huge

amount of obligations to other people?

Yeah.

Yeah, no, totally.

You bring up a good point, because
I actually do admire his writing.

I actually do think he's touching
a lot of important things.

And look, we're all in life trying
to do our best, and so is he.

I don't think he's not trying.

Yeah.

Maybe he's not as like.

Naturally gifted with diligence for a
sense of Hey, like maybe no one ever

really instilled in, instilled that
in him, but that's not his fault.

He's the guy's like clearly
trying to figure some stuff out,

but yeah, I think it's all good.

I still admire his, I guess I feel
like I, so far I can, I still admire

him, even if that's true about him.

Yeah.

That's magnanimous of you, Tom.

That's good.

I don't even really mean it
as an act of magnanimity.

I really mean it as this

kind of process for figuring
out how to deal with the stuff

that's going on in his life.

Just think about this is
so hard to live up to now.

This degree of self reflection and
Focusing on your process and stuff.

I don't live like this.

And I have way more in some ways.

He was the emperor of Rome.

So in some ways, he had more
privilege and access, power and stuff.

We have all these modern
conveniences that he didn't have.

Yes I still think overall,
very impressive guy.

Also, just imagine if anybody
else from that period.

I'm just trying to like,
adjust for the time period.

What would a normal Roman person's version
of this look like compared to Marcus?

How exceptional is he
relative to his peers?

I still have to imagine
he's just way exceptional.

Yeah, I think that I think
is a, is still a really.

good reminder periodically
to provide where just I think

these were radical thoughts.

Like Stoicism was radical in a way
that doesn't, it doesn't feel today.

Yeah.

And so maybe that there is
a component of he thought he

was better than everyone else.

And but he had these mental
frameworks that other people didn't

have, which were really dramatic.

Like really dramatically
powerful and different, right?

The Alexander the Great being
really upset about all the

secrets, Aristotle being shared.

Yeah, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think another thing that this
has brought me back to is just, yeah,

that a comment we've made repeatedly
over the course of this podcast, I think,

is how, in some ways, It's remarkable
the extent to it, to which the stuff he

is dealing with in this book is still
stuff that human beings deal with.

There's really not too much of it
in here that he's talking about that

we're like that doesn't matter anymore.

That's like total bullshit now.

Yeah, he's on the frontier.

He's like trying to figure out this
thing, which is now, which has been

solidified by 2000 years later.

But he's on the edge,
trying to figure it all out.

Yeah.

And he's picking battles or whatever.

He's picking things to think
about really wisely in terms

of how they're going to age.

He is not wasting any time
on stuff that is not like of

timeless importance, basically.

That's true.

Which is.

Pretty remarkable.

And frankly, even the bed thing is
of actually a question of timeless

importance, even though we're
making fun of him or whatever.

It is like as big as anything.

It's, still a totally
relevant modern question.

So yes, I guess one more thing
on the bed, one more thing on

the bed, getting out of bed.

How would, so let's say your life
was exactly the same, but the only

difference is that any disease kills you.

So if you just get sick, you're just done.

Yeah.

Okay.

If that was the only difference
between your current life and

would that change your opinion on
getting out of bed in the morning?

Probably, right?

Yeah.

I think so.

I think it makes everything
feel more meaningless.

Or like just scarier.

I would be scarier.

Yeah.

Yes, the relative comfort of being
all cozy in bed would feel bigger

because the contrast with the
non bed world would be larger.

Yeah, existing all the time in the
regular world would be like, Oh boy.

This is dangerous.

There's that.

And then there's although we
take foundation for grant.

We're like obviously if I get up in the
morning and I work hard, I'll build,

like I'll invest a little bit every
day and I'll continue to improve my

life and if you, it's like the same,
it's like the same like dictators who.

are like, are in power for short stints
tend to be way more ruthless and like

insane than dictators who are like, in
power for 30 years, it's that same idea

where like, all of a sudden, if your
time horizon is short, you like, yeah,

if you have no, if you have no control
over that, then like a lot changes.

All of a sudden, what is the point?

Yeah, that's interesting.

I think that's a really
good point that yes.

And I guess I'll take it a step
further and say, For sure, disease

was a component of that, but also
what was the life expectancy of Roman

emperors, even aside from disease?

Like you might get assassinated
for political reasons.

You're out on a military frontier.

There's just so many ways his life really
could have ended any day in a way that I

think, we read these entries a lot of the
time where he talks about, it matters not

how long you live, whatever effectively
live every day, like it's your last.

And we roll our eyes at that because for
us, It's like a pretty abstract notion.

Yeah.

Good reminder for him.

That's not much realer.

So yes, I agree with your point that
the bed question gets way harder.

If yeah, if for us, yes.

The expected return on getting
out of bed on a, on an average

day for us is solidly positive.

Yeah, like the E.

is very positive.

Quite positive, yeah.

For him, yeah, I'm definitely open
to a line of argument that it was

at least murkier what the expected
value of getting out of bed was.

Yeah, you read, yeah, I think we've
talked about this, but you like open

a history book, like a Roman history
book, and you just read the emperors and

cause of death, and it's this guy fell
off his horse, this guy got a small cut,

this guy it's just really really just
mundane murder events, or death events

that just, yeah, at that point, yes.

Okay, all of this, again, is serving
even, I think, I'm happy we're having

this conversation because all of this
is serving to me to humanize him and

make his battle with the dead question.

Yeah.

You're like pretty, pretty legit.

I don't begrudge him struggling with that.

That's right.

He's not, there's a huge difference
between him not wanting to get out

of the bed in the morning and your
teenage kid in 2024, not wanting

to get out of bed in the morning.

That's not the same thing.

Yes.

Yeah.

And by the way, he was also a teenager.

So whatever inherent teenage things are
going on, he's got those going on too.

Yeah.

Nice.

I like this.

I want to be in team.

Yes.

Marcus.

I don't really want to
be rooting against him.

I think as you can maybe tell in this
episode, it's basically impossible for me

to stay against Team Marcus for too long.

That's good.

Because I think it, yes, I think
the whole reading text like

this just works way better if
you're on the team of the person.

I agree.

So let's stay on the team of the person.

Okay, yes, let's do it.

Should we wrap it up?

Do you want to do one more?

Okay, so what I've realized is that in
classic Marcus fashion, God I hate it when

he does this, that we just read 31 and
now there's a 31a that we didn't read.

So let's wrap it up with 31a.

Okay.

And, oh god, it starts with a quote,
and that quote starts with an ellipsis,

in classic Marxism, so think about
how many layers of, this is not quite

what the main point he's saying.

Okay, so 31a, quote, ellipsis.

All are relative, it's been said, quote.

And in reality, only atoms, end quote.

It's enough to remember the first half.

All are relative.

And then a dagger, which is little enough.

And then another dagger.

Oh boy, lots of like stuff that distances
him or us from him or him from us.

I'm going to read it one more time because
there were so many interruptions there.

All are relative, it's been
said, and in reality only Adams.

It's enough to remember the first half.

All are relative, which is little enough.

Okay.

All are relative.

I guess it's just don't
take things too seriously.

Yes, everything is relative.

Everything is relative.

I don't know how it's,
how is it related to 31?

Wash yourself clean.

Great question.

Follow God.

I guess maybe it's related to
care for other human beings.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

When people say that in people
say everything is relative.

Sometimes that's like a thing that
modern people say, what do they mean?

When they say that?

It's a profound statement, but it's
just like impossible to actually like

it's the classic thing is it's the,
Hey, everything that you think is

right or wrong is just, it's just a
construct and it's just societal and

completely arbitrary and relative to
who you are and how you were brought up.

That is a very profound thought.

I don't know if that's what he means.

If that is, that is a.

It's like a dark well, you can look
into that a bit for a long time.

I say okay.

I'm open to the explanation
that's not what he means.

He says that our translator has not
translated it as everything is relative.

They have translated it
as are all are relative.

Oh.

So maybe he's talking, maybe he's
very directly talking about 31

with indifference to everything.

So with simplicity, humility,
with indifference to

everything, but right and wrong.

Yeah.

He's maybe he's just talking about like
events now, but that's still pretty deep.

Okay He does follow it up by saying and in
reality only Adams which makes it sound to

me more like he is talking about Physical
so humans, I guess that's a little weird.

It's physical stuff.

Yeah.

Okay.

No, I think humans Let's
think about it as humans.

Humans are relative.

All of us.

All are relative.

And he says that we don't have
to worry about the Adams part.

It's enough to remember the first half.

Sure.

I'm just gonna ignore the Adams part.

He told me I could ignore
it, so I'm gonna ignore it.

And then he has one little comment
at the end, which is little enough.

Relative, which is little enough for what

you, okay.

What does it mean for
a human to be relative?

It's oh, you have a place in
society and you're relative related.

You're right.

You're like a worker B is doesn't really
make sense outside of the context of yeah.

Yes, our purposes are relative.

I like that.

That yeah, the roles we play in life
are only meaningful because they.

They function in relation
to the roles of others.

I dig that.

Yeah.

Which is little enough.

Which is that's enough.

Little enough.

Little enough, yeah.

Okay.

It's in daggers, which part of me wants
to just, makes me give up sometimes.

Ignore it.

But okay, the one thing that

Okay, I have two thoughts about this.

One is, he's trying to give
us something to remember.

He's trying to give us give us a
catchphrase to, to live by, right?

And so one interpretation is, okay,
I have gotten the catchphrase short

enough that it is memorable now.

It's, which is little enough.

Oh, sure.

That's very literal.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's, that's a pithy enough thing
that I'm going to remember it.

Okay, yeah, nice.

Yeah, he's trying to give us
that that, that fridge magnet

that we've been looking for.

Yeah, exactly.

All are relative.

It's a pretty, pretty heady fridge magnet.

Which is little enough.

What was your second thought?

Yeah, the second thought is that it's
a bigger, more philosophical statement.

And I'm trying to think about how
to put that into words, that I'm

It's more like

in the same way that like physicists
now try to express the universe

in a minimal set of equations.

Like we're trying to simplify
the world as much as possible.

Sometimes that's I feel like
that's Marcus's thing, too.

He's often trying to take life itself and
express it as succinctly as possible, and

he just keeps trying over and over again.

He could be saying something like
that, too, where it's which is little

enough means like, if that's true.

I've solved it, I've hit my target
of expressing things very succinctly.

Yeah, he might have solved it.

It's just so hard to know.

Yeah, that's the other thing is that he,
even if he does solve it, I don't know if

he's going to know that he's solved it.

So he's going to keep.

Yeah, because he's going to keep going.

And yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

That's a perfect note to tease.

Yeah.

I feel like it undercut a thing where
I was Really vibing with Marcus and

being like I can love you and understand
you even though you wake up at 11 a.

m every morning and then you had to do a
stupid 31a that was very difficult to do.

It's just, I just, I think this is
like translation and 2000 years of

like, anytime it's a quote, it's he's
quoting someone and we're supposed

to know who that is referring
to someone with some context.

That's totally lost.

Yeah.

It's almost impossible with these quotes.

Yes.

I think that's okay.

My, my new perspective
is that this is good.

We shouldn't get, we neither should
be Marcus's enemy, but we shouldn't

be too chummy with him either
because he is pretty removed from us.

And it's part of the game is we're
not in his head all the time.

He's giving us stuff that is
surprising and unexpected.

And sometimes it leads
to results like that.

He's not an angel.

He's not a demon.

And also like he, it's
2000 years in history.

Yeah.

Okay.

Nice.

I enjoyed that.

I think this is a new, a nice new lens
for us to be tackling Marcus with.

This is great.

Yeah.

If we could just keep
learning about the guy.

Yes.

And I have to say, I think this
is going any morning in which

I'm tempted to stay in bed.

Now, I think these thoughts are
going to be with me a little bit.

Yeah.

Will you, Tom, stay in bed?

Do you ever do that?

I do not necessarily leap out of
bed the moment that I am conscious.

I don't mind lingering in bed a little
while and just enjoying it for a minute.

I'm not tempted to.

Okay.

I didn't mean to make myself sound
like a Buddhist monk or something.

Yeah.

I'm not, I don't expect to be
tempted in the way that Marcus is

apparently tempted to stay at bed.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Okay.

All right.

Bye.

Till next time.

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