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We talk with a single dad who's been involved in child custody court for 6 years. Tim provides valuable insight and perspective on the often undervalued experience of a father seeking custody, and how it has affected him and his daughter.
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
[00:00:00] Hi everybody. It's Elizabeth Stephenson with new direction, family law. I'm Sarah Hahne Kerr law partner and podcast partner. Absolutely. And today we have a great guest. I'm very excited to have him here. His name is Tim. He is going to discuss with us his experience with the court system, being a father that is seeking custody of his daughter and how it is also the stresses of being a single father when you're the one that has the majority of the time.
And typically we think of. That are in that position as being the mom. But that is honestly not the case for a lot of people. So Tim welcome. Thank you for being here. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah. And this is your first podcast, which I'm like what five then at this [00:01:00] point. So through experience five.
Part 20 to 22, but that's fine. Tim, why don't you introduce yourself and the age of your daughter and when you started going through the court system. Yeah. Thanks for having me. My name is Tim. My daughter just recently turned eight and we've been going through the court system since she was about eight or nine months.
Yeah. Like her whole life. Yeah. Wow. And were you married to the mother? No, we were never married. Never dated. So let's just a quick quickie. Basically. It was one and done. As soon as she walked away, I was like, who's that? But come to find out, she, there was a pregnancy from the relationship. Indeed.
I found that out six months left afterwards after your daughter was born after me and the mother no longer had communications. So six months into the pregnancy and did she allow you to be part of that? I'd say that she reached out. But when I [00:02:00] tried to engage, before we got into the court system, there was definitely some power struggles and.
A lot of back and forth on trying to see my daughter and how to see my daughter and all those kinds of things that go with that. lot of my clients, especially new moms who are single think that they're the only ones that can take care of their newborn, which is unfortunate because that's a great that's when you need to start that bonding time is right when they're born and geographically, she resided somewhere else in you, correct?
Yeah. She resided about an hour and a half away from where. Okay. So who made the first step towards trying to initiate a custody schedule and court order? Anything? I did, and I think it stemmed from what I was saying where, it was really difficult to see my daughter and I finally had enough of it and said, I think that there's a better way to go about this.
And then I basically. Took my daughter and then started the court proceeding from there. Okay. And going into that, did you think it was gonna be a battle for you just based on the fact that you [00:03:00] were the father seeking custody? Definitely in your I think, from a cultural perspective, what you were saying in the beginning where, we typically think of the moms as having custody.
The court system favoring the moms historically men have an overall, I think, negative stigma in our society. And so I just felt like the overall atmosphere was against. There and you felt that way going into court. How about your first couple of times going to court? How did you feel after that?
, it was definitely a continual feeling that it was an uphill battle for sure. We'd probably been in and out of court every six months for about six years. And as time grew went on and as we continued to win cases, I felt a little bit more positivity with that forward momentum, but definitely in the beginning it was extremely daunting.
And what was the hardest part for you going through, these custody trials and having to [00:04:00] go back to court and making filings? What's the hardest part for you? I'd say the hardest part was, my daughter was born when I was 22 in college. Didn't have a professional job yet. And just being able to, manage, having, an eight month old with me during that time.
And then. Trying to establish ourselves and be able to form a life where we could grow and prosper was a continual challenge and something that we had to work at over a long period of time. And especially with, the costs around that and things like that. It definitely wasn't easy.
You said you're in court, like every six months or so for the last six? For the F for the first six years, the last two years about we really haven't settled down after that point. Yeah. Of my own volition. Okay. Okay. So what do you think made it so on say volatile. Those probably not the word I should be using in the beginning.
What was it that y'all the y'all ended up going to. I think in the [00:05:00] beginning, as the court often tries to do in this area, they try to get 50, 50%, if there aren't extenuating circumstances around, violence or drug abuse, they really want to try and have both parents involved in the kid's life in this area of the country.
And, I think that they tried to set up that 50 50 schedule. We continued to see issues from the other party side of not following the order. Not being able to, follow through and be there when it mattered and continual bad decisions to where. I felt the need to continually bring up issues to the court.
And over those kinds of six years, the 50, 50 custody slowly went away. The decision-making from the mom's part, went away. The choices from the mom's part went away to the point where I now have a hundred percent custody, a hundred percent decision-making and quite honestly, the mom [00:06:00] really can't decide to do anything.
I know she's young. What effect do you think that had on your daughter? It's just a litigation part of it. Not talking about the parenting part, but, or was there, she, she was so young, you shielded her from it. I don't know. Unfortunately some of those bad decisions had to do with the mom bringing my daughter to court.
So she was exposed at a very early age to some of that. And so I definitely think that has had a lasting impression. I think as parents often do, they try to weaponize the information. And as my daughter has grown older, the mother has felt the need to continually say a quarter information themes that were happening.
And it has continued to, color the way that my daughter has thought about the situation. Perceived me as perceived the mother. And it's definitely very difficult on her to only have primarily me. I've seen a pattern with young. Mom's if they have a child, when they're very young, they seem to get [00:07:00] frozen in the age where they had the child and you see this pattern of them thinking of the child more like as their friend.
And so you're not parenting, you are just stuck with, I love this person and then this person I made it. So they have to love me too. And that's all that there is in that relationship. And let's snuggle. Let's go do this, but it's not actual parenting. So when that happens, a lot of times you have the father being the one that's going to be the Dewar.
Like I want to give this child, experiences and opportunities and making sure they go to school and do all the things that mom doesn't take upon herself because she's still in that. This is my friend, not this parenting role. It's interesting that you say that because even to this day, When the mom drops off her picks up, she'll say, bye, best friend or Hey, best friend.
And I do not talk to my daughter like that. My daughter to teach mentor grow. Maybe when she's 25, we'll be more friends. But at this stage in her life that I'm not her friend and I'm not supposed to be in my opinion. It takes a quarter while I [00:08:00] think to get that picture. Cause they're making decisions for this child based on a few hours of testimony.
And so the easiest thing is to do 50 50 if there's not drugs and alcohol. So that's what Tim did is. Okay. You're not seeing these things outside of the picture. I really want you to see them because it matters to me. As a parent, that my child's getting the opportunities that I want her to, and mom's not disrupting that.
And you're definitely not the only parent that's going through that. So what advice would you give a parent in your possession of how to respond to your child about if mom's saying things about court or negative things about you what do you say. No, I do my best not to speak negatively about the other party.
It's very important that when my daughter brings up these feelings, that it's much more, I take a listening role an empathetic role, and try to just, tell her that, people's experiences are different. We all do the best that we can and Really just being there for her to express herself, then me trying to, [00:09:00] change the way that she's trying to express herself or say that, oh, no, this is wrong.
I don't feel like that's my role and I don't want to impart that information on her because then it further, cellys the way that she thinks about the situation and she can't understand it anyway at this age. And so for me to bring up that information is really that's going to do more for me. That's really something that's a selfish thing versus that's what's best for her.
Man, he's got some insight. So do you think that your perspective there has changed as a father since you've matured and your daughter has matured and was there ever a time where you would give yourself like a little bit of I could have done better? Or has this been something that kind of clicked in you?
I think there's always areas of opportunity where we can all better ourselves. But I do think in terms of the, bad talking and things like that. I don't think that's ever been something that I've really brought up. I think that's that type of a household is something that I grew up in.
And so even when my daughter was very young, I knew that this is not something [00:10:00] that I want to do. And I was trying to very, thoughtfully make sure that didn't come into the equation where there times that I may have slipped here and there. Sure. But overall I think I've really tried to refrain from.
Yeah. And as far as dealing with judges and their decisions, I know that there's always going to be time. No one ever goes to court and a hundred percent of the time gets what they're seeking. So how do you deal with those kinds of setbacks whenever there's been judgements that you thought could have been in a different manner or something you just didn't like, or didn't think that was in the best interest of your daughter?
. I'll agree with part of what she say. I think that initially no one gets a hundred percent of what you want. But at this point after we've gone so many times, I do have 100% of what I want the court order. , for lack of a better term crafted it myself. And a lot of the points in the order form.
I said, this needs to be worded like this. But that was only the most recent iteration. And so those earlier times when the outcome. Wasn't a hundred percent of what I wanted. It was, making sure that I was [00:11:00] diligent on watching what the other side was doing, absorbing how that was affecting my daughter.
And when I felt like something was out of place or wrong, it was up to me to. Put those motions into action and bring up those points to the court so they could see what was happening behind the scenes. And really advocate for yourself and your daughter in that respect too, which is important to keep trying.
And a lot of people we'll just do an avoidant. I just can't deal with this. I'm not going to deal with that says they're not doing something, they're not paying something. And it's I'm just gonna let it go because. Do this for six years, or can't afford to do this for six years kind of thing.
So you got to pick your battles there and know when you can do that. And when you shouldn't do that. And okay, this has happened to say this person's been late to a pickup four times. Let's just see if it's going to be eight times. Cause that's going to be stronger if you can really connect the pattern in front of the court.
So they don't just excuse the other person's behavior. For things happen, right? So you started at, it sounded almost like tips. So what would do say [00:12:00] to a single parent, if they were in getting ready to go to court, what are some tips that you would give them? Think about who in your life can support your perspective, right?
The court can hear from you all they want, but at the end of the day, that judge may partially think that what you're vocalizing is for. So as many people as you can have that support you, that see a similar perspective to you, it is very important to have those support vehicles in your life.
Not only just for the court aspect, but really they're coming to court because they support you in your life. Whether that's parents, family, friends, community, what happened. So I think it's very important to have those bonds and those supportive pillars in your life.
What kind of relationship should you have with your attorney? Honesty is probably first and foremost. And advocating for yourself, but yeah, no, you need to [00:13:00] be honest with your attorney. You need to let them know the struggles that you feel you may have when you go in front of the judge.
The strong points that you may have. And asking your attorney what you need to do to be successful based on their experience. They see tons of people in my situation. I only see me in my situation, to be able to extrapolate that greater set of data and then apply it to my life and then bring it to court.
Those insights are extremely helpful. And just having a relationship with the attorney side, I have plenty of clients who will disappear for months and all of a sudden they want me to do something. I'm like, okay, I'm on it. And then they disappear again. And I'm like, why do I feel like you don't care about how about your case?
Yeah. You cared about it like real big on this one day. And then Then you don't feel like you're invested in doing this right. It's where I tell people this is another job, and we can't do our job if you're not a hundred percent in helping us. Yeah. And I think for me is equally as important is to know that my attorney cares about me on more than just a business level.
I have, and I would [00:14:00] again, call my attorney on the weekend. At night on her personal number. And she, gives me the freedom to do that because I think we've established a relationship where if I'm making that outreach something to serious and we really need to talk right. And having that back and forth.
And having that relationship is very important to me to feel that support and attorney is choose who they give their personal number to. We do not every client gets that most. I will say the majority. I have a non attorney here in the room. A question for you, Tim, outside of court. Being a single dad.
Have you experienced any stigmas, going back to the cultural thing, you mentioned to begin with being a single dad and out in the world, we know with your daughter, have you experienced any stigmas from that standpoint? Because I think so much if we see like a single mom, we think one thing or say one thing or, something different or a dad, it might be a little bit different.
Have you experienced that at all? Yeah, absolutely. Stigmas from my friends, my 20 stopped in 22, the rest of my [00:15:00] friends went on and continued to have that. And didn't really understand what I was going through. My family who had never been in my position didn't really understand it.
I think it makes it very difficult from a personal aspect. Personally I've decided not to bring a partner into my daughter's life until she's at least a late teenager. And it's something that you have to wrap your head around that, this is something that I'm doing because I feel like it's what's best for her and gratification for me can be delayed until later.
That's pretty big. That is big. Yeah. So that, and what does that do for your dating life? That's a hundred percent custody and he doesn't have a bar, but I see, we see that all the time that like you get separated, you have three kids and all of a sudden you're dating someone and then they're spending the night and then they moved in and then six months later that person's gone.
Another person's in. And that I think is what goes back to your point is that th that parent is. Fully [00:16:00] developed lab. No, they're not something happened where they just stopped. And that, that mind frame when they had their kids from the first time, and it's detrimental children, they don't understand.
And they also see this as being normal. So when they grow up and they have their relationships, they're going to do the same thing. Correct. So that's dangerous because you don't want your children repeat your mistakes and romantic relationships and many marriages and that sort of thing. And it does happen.
[00:17:00] Yeah. So what about like extra curriculars? Are you like the only dad on the sideline there? How many shades of colors of your nails been? Yeah, no I know how to do a mean French braid. We'll be doing that tomorrow actually. But no, in terms of like on the sidelines of sports and stuff like that, I think that other fathers are, just in, in general in society can be fairly involved in things like sports and clubs like that.
So I'm around other fathers, but they have a different home life than me. They have a different situation in a different way that they go about making choices for their family. So I think just being able to relate to those different folks and being able to, have them see a little bit of what I go [00:18:00] through can help with that bonding.
But no, I, like I said, I decide all the activities that my daughter does. I pay for them all. I bring her, I pick her. Dance, soccer, arts, and crafts, whatever you name it. And so it's definitely, as I didn't grow up with, any of these kinds of traditionally female interests.
It's been something that I've had to learn to adapt to and. Yeah, it wasn't until, I had her that I figured out how to paint nails or any of that other stuff. And I've spent quite a fair amount of time on blogs, figuring out how to braid and the right things. And it's helpful for that.
Yeah. And it's definitely an interesting dynamic at my house because my daughter is a different race than I am. So she has different hair than me and different skin needs and different. Identity issues, quite frankly. And that is another level on top of all the court things, where I have to think about how to relate to her and think about how to build her up and all those kinds of things that go with self-esteem and building that and building your identity.[00:19:00]
I have a support group of single parents. Are you just out there for solo, supplying all that? It's interesting. You mentioned that because I've often thought about starting a support group for single parents. Quite honestly, I'm very busy. So I haven't quite got around to that.
Maybe I'll pick your brain afterwards on that, but no, I don't really have a single parent support group or anything like that. So it's, it really is mostly me. That would be helpful. That would, I'm sure. Sometimes you can't tell me that my other moms, so don't come up and give you advice and things.
No, actually I would say the more ask for my advice because they find themselves, dealing with. What I deal with on the mom's side, but they deal with it on the dad's side for them. How'd you deal with this how'd you get to where you are and that journey and even not single moms, I've had a lot of married parents just inquire about that, that journey and how you navigate that.
With the divorce rate being 55% in America who think it's something that a lot of us, have [00:20:00] friends or family members that might be going through that. And, when they see somebody who has pretty much only known that, and has been, successful in that role, they're interested to see how that goes, especially.
Men when they feel like, oh, the woman is just going to automatically get custody. I'm only going to see my kids every other weekend, for those folks that I would say that, that's the cultural bias in your head and that. It doesn't have to be like that, and if you don't try to make something happen, then of course, it's going to default to that, correct? You made a big point there about, this has always been the way it's been for you. So you didn't start out in a marriage and raise a child together with someone for five years and then go off and try to do it on your own.
I think that might be harder for some people. And that's why they find themselves back in a relationship because they would rather, instead of having that other person, instead of doing the hard work and handling it, they're like let me just get another partner to help with these, brides to daycare and it's good.
And then the child around town. So you need to give your self prompts for that. A lot of people can't have.[00:21:00] , they just get remarried. That's true. Especially the guys they're like, oh, this is a lot of work. I didn't have to do this before. Mom did it all before and now I need a new mom.
You have somebody single parents hitting on you on the sidelines to they try, but they don't get far. We're more invested in your dating life.
yeah. So what about communication with. The mother or the other party. How has that gone through this time period? And how, what advice would you have to people about what to do to keep that best for your kids? It's going to be different for each person, what that communication is like?
Yeah. I'd say that it's important to frack record and codified communications to think before you just put things out there. To not react with emotion, to think about things logically. And when you do interact to get very, to the point, this [00:22:00] isn't, Hey, how you doing? What's going on? It's boom.
And just leaving it to where it's very it's cordial, but it's to the point. And certainly the communication during those core ears were rare were mostly through my lawyer. And we're very tumultuous, I'd say at this point, we haven't been in court and in a few years, and we've gotten to the point where, we meet and exchange and not that we talk to each other, but nothing happened.
I keep her in the loop on events and things like that. And sometimes she'll, for example, show up to a dance recital and we'll spend a few minutes around my daughter together or whatever, but for the most of it, when she comes to those themes, I usually give them space to have their time.
And then I step in and take over from there. We try to communicate respectfully at this point, however, that has not always been the case. Especially, if you're not going to have, you don't know how to communicate. And a lot of people have different parenting scars style, so makes conflict easy [00:23:00] when you don't see what you don't come at it from the same direction.
I think you would agree that we have probably the most opposite personality and communication styles that exist. And so it has been definitely a challenge there. Yeah. That's why I was just a quickie, it wasn't going to last long there.
No, but that's what I tell everyone. Who's relationship fails is like you, if you're always communication issues in the marriage will clearly, you're going to have the same problem. Co-parenting afterwards. It doesn't get any better. It gets worse. But you didn't know that because y'all didn't know each other.
You had no idea what? It could have turned out completely 360 the other way, marginally it didn't. But. It may be 360. It'd be right where you were. No, I'm not good with that. What? 80? 81 80. Yeah. But you didn't know that. I, all I can say is kudos because a lot of people would not have stepped up.
May have just walked away. Basically. We're giving up when the court system kept beating you down and didn't see it from your perspective and just give in. [00:24:00] Did you have I don't know who your assigned judges were. Were they women or men? Women and do well. So you don't have a perspective on men does button.
Did you feel like they had, because they were women had a biased against too. You can speak
there'll be rotated off. They're listening. I'm just like, Hey, shout out. Fantastic work. We love you. Great job guys. I'd say that, the judges, they try to see things from, non-partisan view. They try to hear what both sides are saying, but the fact of the matter is that we're all human.
We all have our personal experiences, that color, the way that we see things. And especially a judge who, sees these things tons of times a day for years at a time and things like that. I felt like there was probably some initial bias towards the mom simply because that's been our cultural stigma through [00:25:00] history.
But I think as we work through the system, we had the same judge for a number of years. We also were, had some really fortunate situations to where the types of cases that we filed. We're able to be rolled over to secondary judges. And that's really where I felt like we caught a lot of breaks.
If you will, was having someone else step up. See the situation here, the background that wasn't our primary judge. And then they made a new decision, which then our primary judge was able to see their ruling and was able to help shape how she then ruled moving forward. That's very insightful and helpful.
Interesting. Yeah. It's like a fresh set of eyes that then have that back. And, especially with young parents who, we had one person who was maturing and the other person just delight. And I, if you start out 50 50, it's hard to get them to change that without any huge something [00:26:00] happened.
And, sometimes something does happen and you do get rolled over to a different judge. And Tim said, new perspective is good. Also. Like they're humans. So some are going to react differently than others when facts are put in front of them. And yeah. So as a sort of a wrap-up, I what's an overarching theme for you, as a single dad having gone through six years of litigation, which it takes a toll on anybody.
Yeah. I'd just say that, it's definitely not always easy. Quite honestly, it probably shouldn't be but I'd say that if you really feel in your heart that something isn't right with the other side and that your child is really suffering on a really like, you can see it happening.
You can prove it happening. You can document the evidence of it happening. And I think if you're able to make that case in an organized and linear fashion, when you bring it to the judges, it really helps them to see this happened. We gave chances this happened to get a chance to be done.
So just [00:27:00] having that persistence knowing what issues to litigate over even though we haven't been to court in the last two years, I can assure you there have been a number of issues, which I could have litigated over. But really in the scheme of things, \ is it worth it, are we going to get
blood from a stone. Is there anything, really, anything really more, or is it just, we're going to waste money? And the judge is going to give test to the other party, so understanding when to act, what the appropriate time is over this issue has been happening for X amount of time, and now it's time to bring it up right.
Is very helpful. And that's where I think it's important to lean on your attorney's insights to say, is this something that's valid to bring up. Do we need to wait longer, is this, a real issue in your perspective and all those kinds of things. So just, persistence and, being able to see the situation from a holistic standpoint, right?
Yeah. And of course it's always valid to you as a parent. It affects your everyday life. So it can be hard to hear your attorney say, I don't think that's worth bringing up in court or going to court over, [00:28:00] or it sounds, it's not even about the child. It's like getting back to the. Definitely.
Sometimes I'd say that's the most, one of the biggest things. Is that anything that you're trying to do where it's like getting back at someone else or doing it for your own self-interest the judge is going to be able to see that and it's going to look really bad on you. So being able to approach that judge in that court date.
A level head with the correct evidence and with those support pillars that are verbalizing the same things that you are really helps it drive home the point with the judge, right? Yeah. We start like a custody mentorship group and the firm and having him be a part of this
mentorship. Single parenting grouping. We're just making plans for your dating life things you're going to do outside of work. Just start a new dating app for single parents. It's not a bad idea. I wonder if it's out there. Do you know if it's out there, we'll look into it. [00:29:00] That could be a money maker. Tim, thank you so much.
Look out for a boost, post, all kinds of alcohol. That would be all flavors. There'll be a solo podcast for that dreams. Okay. Thank you so much for being here today. It's been great and I hope some of our male listeners and female listeners out there can get a lot from this as being a single parent and also advocating for yourself and your child through the court system, which can be really tough.
Absolutely. So check us out on another episode and got a lot of good tips today. Ain't that some shit.