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Each episode of the podcast Personal Kosmology traces one seeker's journey: the beliefs they inherited, the experiences that broke them open, and the questions they're still living.
I'm drawn to people who didn't just change their minds, but rebuilt their lives around what they found.
In their stories, you may recognize your own.
Kelly Gores: We decided to separate
and so like consciously parenting
my kid tr- and realizing like,
wow, I was never taught how to…
Nobody ever named emotions for me.
God, I don't even know
how to name your feelings.
I can't name mine.
I wasn't equipped, and I've done personal
development and meditation, and I f-
consider myself very intelligent and
conscious, like flailing through all this.
I was like, "We've never been
taught how to feel." So I got
the idea for the next film.
I wanted to cut myself out of the film.
I told my editor and my producer,
I was like, "I think we should
do a version where I'm not in
it at all." I'm still trying to
control people's perception of me.
I didn't want anybody to think that I was
a failed actor inserting myself in a film.
And they both looked at me and laughed,
and they're like, "No, no, you're the
whole bridge of this film." Mm-hmm.
My producer is now like adamant.
She's like, "This has to be your story."
I'm experiencing all these things and- So
Devin Martin: this is not
an intellectual exploration.
This, you're actually-
Kelly Gores: Oh, man
having experiential- I'm in the fire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is great- … 'cause I'm
in this, like, express lane
of transformation and growth.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: But, you know, I
have to be vulnerable and stripped
open and willing to share.
Devin Martin: Welcome to The
Personal Kosmology of Kelly Gores.
I'm your host, Devin Martin,
and we're here with Kelly.
I think if people know you, they
probably know you as the force behind
Heal, which is, uh, originally a
documentary, then a podcast, then a book.
Kelly Gores: Film, book, podcast.
Devin Martin: Film, book, podcast.
And I think maybe some people would say
kind of a movement, and has introduced
a lot of people to the idea that
the mind and the body are intimately
connected in things like health and
longevity and all other aspects of life.
Um, and I know you because we have
a dear friend in common, or friends-
Mm-hmm … Andrew Chomer, Roya Darling.
Yep.
And shout out to their son, Theo, who's
my son Zeke's, one of his favorite people.
Kelly Gores: Aw.
Devin Martin: Um, and you are all now
collaborating on a platform which is going
to help people implement some of what
these films and podcasts have introduced.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And I think a
coming docuseries or documentary?
Kelly Gores: Another documentary,
which likely will turn into a series
just because of the breadth and
depth of the topic, the nervous
system and emotions and trauma.
Devin Martin: Amazing.
Uh, what I wanna do with you here
is I wanna explore all of that and
really touch on the edges of your
thinking, but I wanna get there slowly.
And so what I like to do is start
with the world you were raised into.
I think of this as a
conversation in three chapters.
Kind of how were you raised, what,
what were you taught to believe
was good, true, beautiful, science,
spirituality, career, family, culture?
And then the second chapter is
what were the moments that tested
or challenged or broke that open?
And then the reason why people like you
are exciting to me is, you know, you
have had some major insights, I think.
Although, I think some of this
stuff goes pretty back in,
pretty far back in your life.
I think you were always kind of
a, a seeker and a questioner.
Mm-hmm.
But now you've dedicated your life
to some things that you probably
never would have guessed you
would have believed in as a child.
And that's what's exciting to me, is
helping people get to where you are now
by understanding the journey you took.
'Cause I think some people will look
at where you end up and go, "No way. I
don't believe some of that stuff." But I
think when they see it through your eyes
as you've evolved, they can go with you.
And so literally take us back.
Where were you born, and what was
the, the culture of your family,
your town, the belief system?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
All right.
So it all started March 25th, 1979.
Um, I grew up here in Southern
California- Mm-hmm … in a
little town called Long Beach.
Not so little town.
I think it's one of the, like,
fifth-largest in California or something.
But, um, it is the southernmost beach
city in LA County, borders Orange
County, and it's, it's kind of a
cool little… I mean, it's huge.
It's got all… It's got
five public high schools.
It's, it's- Oh, wow … it's massive.
But, um, really tight community, really
active community, lots of sports,
um, lots of things for kids to do.
And I grew up, my mom was
just a supermom, you know.
Mm. Didn't, didn't work, and
my dad was a commercial airline
pilot, so he was in Vietnam.
He flew planes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
He flew bombers, I think.
Um, gunships, I believe.
Yes, gunships.
Um, and, and then became a
commercial airline pilot.
Uh, he, you know, he was, like, this
tall, good-looking, charming guy,
lovable guy, but he, he had that,
like, military kind of rigidity to him.
Mm. And I think his, his parents,
like, his mom was amazing.
We called her Nuni.
And his dad was, like, a Marine, you know?
So there was, like, a lot of
strictness in his upbringing, uh,
coupled with, I think, a little
alcoholism on the, my grandpa's side.
And so my dad just had this,
like, a little bit of, um- Just
the emotional capacity was not
quite there to stay patient.
Yes, yes.
A lot of, a lot of frustration,
a lot of walking on eggshells,
a lot of ticking time bombs, so.
Devin Martin: Was he a drill sergeant?
Was he-
Kelly Gores: He was not, no.
No.
I mean, he was like, you know, he was
just a guy who flew planes and you know?
But like, and he was so charming.
You know, he would be like so frustrated.
You know, kids are challenging, just- Yes
you know, having kids will put pressure
on any relationship, and I think that
when kids came on the scene, I have an
older brother who's two years older,
and, and then me, I think it put a lot
of strain on his, um, ability to flow.
And the good news, good news and
bad news is, was he was gone two
weeks out of every month, uh-
Devin Martin: Mm
Kelly Gores: flying.
So when he came home, he
felt that he was missing out.
He felt like all the pressure,
you know, just, it was- So
Devin Martin: he wanted to dive
in and be involved in everything?
Kelly Gores: He did, but then he,
you know, but he was like, again,
he'd lose his temper very easily.
He didn't have a lot of patience with
us, so then we were, we were like kind
of shunned him a little bit, you know?
So it was just this really interesting,
um, dynamic that led me to be a
people pleaser, super hypervigilant.
How do I keep the peace?
How do I keep my parents from
fighting about money or otherwise?
And, um- And it, you know, those
are my adaptive behaviors as a
Devin Martin: kid.
So you're hyper attuned to the
subtleties of other people's mood and
expressions and body language and-
Kelly Gores: Correct.
And, and what can I do to
make, keep everybody happy.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Um, which
was, you know, like a-
Entertained?
…
Kelly Gores: fu- futile proposition.
Yes, I was, I was like
sing, dance, you know.
Like, um, I played sports.
I, I just, I did everything I could.
The sports was probably my outlet of
like getting my own frustration and like-
Devin Martin: Yeah
Kelly Gores: k- you know,
whatever I was holding in at
home, I could go out and burn it
Devin Martin: off and- And straight As?
Were you-
Kelly Gores: Definitely straight As.
I was ASB class president.
I was, I was definitely an overachiever.
Devin Martin: Yeah,
Kelly Gores: so- Three varsity sports
…
Devin Martin: perfection was-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: deep-seeded.
Kelly Gores: Still unraveling
that one, by the way.
Devin Martin: Hm.
Kelly Gores: It's very hard for
me to like disappoint people
or have people not like me.
It's like, "Ugh." It's very constrictive.
Yeah,
Devin Martin: yeah.
'
Kelly Gores: Cause it feels unsafe.
And now I'm realizing, oh
yeah, no, I actually can't.
It's, life is showing me more and
more cases where I just, I… By the
nature of who I am, I'm gonna trigger
people and people just don't like me.
It's
Devin Martin: un- Yeah, no, I
mean, it's, it's interesting
if you have an iconoclastic
personality and you wanna- Yeah
challenge society in certain
things, you're gonna dis- you're
gonna disappoint people- Oh,
yeah … if you're doing it perfect.
Kelly Gores: Yeah, exactly.
So it's been a long journey.
My parents are still married.
Hm.
Uh, we call them the Bickersons,
but they love each other.
And, um, you know.
Devin Martin: Is, is that a church
thing where marriage is, is, is sacred
and you just do not get divorced?
Kelly Gores: I think so, and
I think it's just their old
school like generational thing.
But my mom came from a divorced family.
Hm.
My dad did not.
Um, I think that there were, a,
there was a time, like a vivid time
I remember when I was really young
that my mom was gonna leave my dad-
Hm … 'cause it was just, he was very,
just temper tantrums all the time.
And, um, and so her best friend,
who I was named after, uh, Kelly,
she convinced my mom to stay.
And then like- Really?
… 20 years later was like, "God, I deeply
regret that decision." But no, my dad-
Devin Martin: But they're
Kelly Gores: still friends … my
dad is lovely, yeah.
And, and he's softened with age.
Um, he still has zero capacity for
frustration and l- loses his shit and
raises his tone far too often, but
he's very lovable and he's, you know,
it w- it never was physical abuse.
It was just this like
tension, constant tension.
Devin Martin: And was it
a religious household?
Kelly Gores: Both parents came
from a Roman Catholic background.
Hm.
So, yes, we were very Catholic.
I, my brother was an altar boy.
I feel like, I didn't get confirmed
Catholic- Hm … um, because I
just had this like, like you said,
I was a seeker my whole life.
I was very like, "Wait a second. There's
Buddhists and Jewish and Muslims," and
like I just understood very early that,
you know- It, it all kind of universally
was trying to, you know, portray the
same values, but dressed in different
cultural clothing perhaps and languages
Devin Martin: So it wasn't
anti-Catholic so much as this
isn't the only game in town.
Kelly Gores: I was like, "I wanna
explore all before I confirm and commit
at this young age of 15." Mm. But you,
Devin Martin: you took the commitment
seriously, 'cause a lot of kids
just go through the motions.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
And my mom was like, "No, you just
wanted to get out of the class and
confirm." And I was like, "No, no, no.
I really, like, feel like, I genuine
is like, well, I, I can't commit
until I learn about everything and
make an informed decision," you know?
Um-
Devin Martin: I can relate because I
went through two years of Sunday school
to have a bar mitzvah as, as a Jew, and
I got up to the ceremony and I said, I,
you know, "I don't think I believe in
this. I can't stand up in front of my
community and claim this is my path."
And there was a lot of money on the line.
Yeah.
It was, it was hard to say no at that age.
Yeah.
I'm about to turn 13.
But I, I mean, I, I- That
Kelly Gores: bar mitzvah money is real.
Devin Martin: It's real, but- … it
just felt so weird to stand up
in front of everybody and read
things that I barely understood.
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
Wow.
That's a lot.
I've never heard of a
Jewish boy doing that.
Yeah.
Well,
Devin Martin: sounds like you- That's
great … you did something similar, so.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, but all that being said, there
was something that really resonated with
me about Jesus- Mm … and who He was
and what He was trying to teach people.
So I just, I just, I, I've had these
knowings since I was little that I,
I think I've spent my lifetime trying
to- Get the language and experience
and wisdom to articulate what I know.
And Jesus, as a master teacher and a
mystic and- Mm … really, like, trying
to wake up the power within us all, like
we are all expressions of the divine.
He is not sp- he is absolutely special,
but so all are we- Yeah … are special.
So, um, I'm still very much into
his life and teachings and, like,
the real teachings, you know?
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: Um, but my daughter's here
in Catholic school, and she- She is … my
ex-partner, her father, is from, you know,
he's was born in Nazareth, Israel- Oh,
wow … but in, uh, to a Catholic family.
Mm. Um, so really interesting.
But yeah.
Yeah.
So the, the Catholic lineage, I
think, is cool to continue just
tradition-wise, but, um, yeah.
Devin Martin: And what were you taught
a woman's life is meant to be as far as,
like, a career, having, being a mother?
Yeah.
Was there a clear
pathway laid out for you?
Were there a lot of choices?
Kelly Gores: Um, my parents were very
much… They always… You know, I was
such a, like, self-starter, overachiever.
They just never worried about me.
Mm. They were like, "Whatever you
do, you're gonna be fine." But I
would say I've known from a very
young age that I wanted to be a
mom, that- Mm … and that that was
the highest and most important job.
And also, I'm super creative.
I'm an Aries.
I have, um, this drive to contribute,
and because my parents always fought
about money or there was always tension
about money, we had this beautiful home,
but, you know, I guess the saying back
then was, like, we were house poor.
Like, we overbought- Yeah … on our home.
It was all in our mo- in our house.
So, like, my, my allowance was, like,
$20 a week, and I was very social,
and I wanted more freedom than that.
So I got a job as a hostess at 14.
Like- Mm … I just wanted to
be in control of my own freedom.
And so I had this, like, kind of
declaration early on that I will never-
And I also saw that my mom was like,
she was not the earner, so she kind of
was at the mercy of my dad's decisions.
And I was just like, "Yeah, that
won't work for me." Not for you.
So I, like, had this, like, declaration,
like, "I will never depend on any
man, and I will be, uh, independent
and financially free," you know?
So I'm 47.
I'm still working on
Devin Martin: that.
But you started working and you
kept working- Yes … ever since.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
And even with my ex-husband,
he's a i- incredibly successful
investor and businessman, and
didn't want me to work really.
Mm-hmm.
But I just, I, again, that, I need
to have, I need to contribute, I
need to express and create, so.
Devin Martin: And do you remember what
your first major career decision… I
mean, for a lot of people, they leave
high school and they have this, they
either think about it or they don't.
Mm-hmm.
But the, the die is cast.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And then at some point
later on they think about it or they,
you know, wake up in midlife and go,
"Oh my God, I never thought about it."
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Did you aim for a career?
Kelly Gores: Yes, very.
I got my mom, I had a, my older brother, I
argue, was, like, one of the cutest kids.
He looked like this, like, blonde
hair, kind of couple freckles,
Norman Rockwell cuteness.
And, uh, so someone stopped him on
the street when he was little, I
think, like, six, seven years old-
Oh … and was like, "You gotta get
this kid an agent." Multiple people.
So my mom got him an agent, would…
and dragged me to these auditions
at five years old, and he didn't
really have any interest in it,
and I was like, "Look at me."
And so I started booking jobs
just going on his auditions.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And then, so I, I
wanted to be an actor from a very
young age, and got a little taste
of it, loved it, loved movies as a
medium for moving me emotionally,
and, you know, also this, like,
perfectionism, people-pleasing thing.
I was like, "Oh, you know, if I win an
Oscar, everybody will love me-" Right
kind of probably.
Devin Martin: And you're in LA.
And I'm in LA.
This
Kelly Gores: is the currency
Devin Martin: here.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Um, but I truly, I just loved movies.
I mean- Mm … Stand By Me, all these
movies I grew up with and just watched
over and over and over again because I
just love that journey of watching a film.
And so acted on and off until,
well, I acted until I was, like,
16, then I, became my responsibility
to drive to auditions in, in LA.
And I was like, "Eh, I kinda
just wanna be a normal kid." Oh,
Devin Martin: really?
Kelly Gores: So my last two years
of high school I didn't act except
for in drama at, at, at school.
And then I went away to Berkeley-
Mm … um, for my first two years
of college, and I was like, "I'm
too smart to be an actor," you know?
Uh, because of course the most brilliant
actors are all highly intelligent.
Yes.
Um, but at, that was my
judgment at the time.
And then I was, I went to Berkeley, I
explored all these other things that I was
interested in, and I just wasn't happy.
I couldn't find what that thing was.
And so I came back, I transferred to
UCLA, um, and- And really, I, uh, looking
back, I probably was, like, depressed
for the first time in my life in, in- Hmm
Berkeley.
I think just weather, the terrible
diet, drinking alcohol all the time,
and, and really not having that, like-
Devin Martin: Purpose or-
Kelly Gores: The purpose
and the connection.
Like, I came from such a tight
community in my- Oh, yeah … hometown.
And I, and I met some wonderful girls,
but they were all kind of starting over
and I was like, "God, it takes me…"
I'm, like, slow to warm.
Like, it takes me a while to
cultivate these… I've had the same
friendships for decades, you know?
So and my, my three, four best girlfriends
I've known since elementary school.
So- Hmm … it's just
one of those communities.
It's very special.
Um, so yeah, I came back to UCLA
and started acting outside of
college, graduated, and, and
then got back into acting again.
Devin Martin: Did that
seem like a risky move?
I mean, a lot of people, their parents
say, "Okay, what's your backup plan?
This is crazy. It's never gonna work
out." You had already had some success.
Did it seem more reasonable?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
I think I had success in, like I said, my
parents were… They just, like, because I
would just put my mind to something and do
it, they just weren't worried, you know?
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: And I, so I'd,
I'd get a waitressing job.
I'd work three days a week and support
myself and make enough money acting to-
Devin Martin: And then
just a million auditions.
Kelly Gores: A million auditions
and a lot of rejection.
Devin Martin: I was gonna say for a
perfectionist- … people pleaser,
auditions are torture, aren't they?
Kelly Gores: Well, that's
what I was in my head.
I was, and I'm, like, straight A student,
so I'm, like, trying to figure out
what the casting director wants, what
the director wants- Hmm … with it.
So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not in
the moment embodied feeling anything.
I'm intellectualizing and trying
to perform, and that just doesn't-
Devin Martin: Doesn't translate
…
Kelly Gores: doesn't work.
And there's, you know, there's people
that are really good auditioners and not.
So you need kinda both skills, but I
wasn't a good auditioner because I was
in my head and I was self-conscious and
I was trying- Hmm … to do it right.
So yeah, but that, that constant facing
of rejection and all that time in the car-
um, I started just flooding my
consciousness with, like, Wayne Dyer
and Eckhart Tolle and Abraham-Hicks-
Mm … and anything that could make me
feel better about myself beyond results
of acting and getting a job, you know?
Devin Martin: So it kind of forced
you on an inner journey of- Mm-hmm
… mindset and consciousness and-
Kelly Gores: Totally
Devin Martin: um, had you been
thinking about those things before
you suffered through auditions or…?
Kelly Gores: Yeah, a little bit.
I think I'd always been … Well,
this is where it started.
Uh, I went, in between Berkeley and UCLA,
like I said, I was a little depressed.
I went to Australia.
I had some time off because the transfer
took a little bit, and so I went to
Australia with my brother, who he
and I did not get along growing up.
We were just totally different people.
Devin Martin: He's older or younger?
Kelly Gores: He's two years older.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And, uh, and he went to
Santa Cruz and he was a photography major.
And so for his senior class, uh,
project, they said, "Go anywhere in
the world and do a photo project, and
that's all you have to do for your
senior final quarter or whatever."
And so I, I went with him, and we bonded
on that trip and it was beautiful.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And I met a guy there
who gave me a book for my plane
ride home, and it was called Return
to Love by Marianne Williamson.
And I was like, "Oh,
my…" So that started me.
I was 19, I think, at the time.
And, um-
Devin Martin: Do you have any
idea why he gave it to you?
Kelly Gores: I, we must have
had a deep conversation.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And like, I don't know, but
it was one of those crack open moments.
Just a fortuitous- Yes.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah.
So I read it on the way home, and
it was like, you know, sh- it just
resonated so deeply about everything This
Devin Martin: is the one everyone pulls
the quote from, "Our greatest fear-" Yes
"is our light."
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And they often- "It's
Kelly Gores: not that we are inadequate,
but we are powerful beyond measure."
Devin Martin: Yes.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Devin Martin: And they often,
I think, attribute it to Nelson
Mandela or somebody else, but-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: it's
Marianne Williamson, yeah.
Kelly Gores: I think so, yeah.
Like I never remember which
one it actually is, but- It's
Devin Martin: her.
No, it's her, yeah Oh, it's
Kelly Gores: her.
So he was quoting her.
Devin Martin: And someone asked her
and she was like, "Read the book. It's
full of great stuff like that." Yeah.
She was like, "It's just one paragraph.
I don't really care.
He can have the-" Yeah … "he
can have the quote."
Kelly Gores: Totally.
She's amazing.
So what it, like the main thing that I
remember is, and this was like, uh, it
just all made sense 'cause my c- Catholic
upbringing, she said, "If you come from
love," there's either love or fear.
Devin Martin: Mm-hmm.
Kelly Gores: There's not much else.
It's like if you come from love,
you create heaven on earth.
If you come from fear,
you'll create hell on earth.
And that resonated.
I was like, "That's my true north.
That's as simple as it needs to be."
And that kinda became my guiding, you
know, light, and then I started reading
other things that filled it out, but, um,
that's kind of what Jesus was teaching,
and that was like, that was my, that's
all the spirituality I need, you know?
Yeah.
And, um, it really set me on my path and
like pulled me out of this depression
which I think was a result of like- S-
you know, not having… I kind of, when
I s- didn't get confirmed, then I went
through this whole period of really
just cause and effect, and I guess, I
don't know if it's agnostic or atheist,
but I was just like, "There's no God.
It's just like we're here.
We're physical matter.
There's cause and effect,
and that's it, you know?
And then we die, and we're dead."
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: So and then, but that didn't
work for me clearly … 'cause I got
depressed, um, and just felt disconnected.
Um, and when I sh- that book
just, like, got me back.
I'm like zh- knowing and truth.
Devin Martin: And thinking
about God in a different way?
Kelly Gores: And thinking about God
and spirituality in a different way.
And now I would say that, that,
like, my spiritual beliefs are like
and, and everything that's unfolded
in the last few years is, like,
that's, like- It's just, it's wild.
It-
Devin Martin: Do you have
a multi-denomination…
Like, for u- for Jews, a lot of us now
in the West, we call ourselves JewBus.
'Cause we're, like, half
Jewish, half Buddhist.
Okay.
They, like, they, they
seem to marry nicely.
Okay.
And, like, the mindfulness movement
is a whole bunch of Jews who went
east- Yeah … and came back-
Yes … bringing mindfulness.
Rabbi But I feel like what,
what I'm curious about, is it,
like, the perennial philosophy?
Like, they're all ultimately… If, if
you look at the mystical core of every
religion, they're talking about love.
They're talking about- Yes … oneness.
They're talking about unity.
Like, it's all-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: coming together.
Were you calling yourself
by any name at that point?
Or- No … was Catholicism
resonating in a different way?
Kelly Gores: Um, I just don't love the
dogma around it, and just, like, the
patriarchy's infusion of- Mm … the,
uh, the narration, or the narrative has
gotten hijacked, I think, a little bit.
But at the same time, I kn- you know,
I know very devout Catholics, and
monsignors, and, and people that I
respect their devotions so deeply that I'm
just at a place of, like, non-judgment.
Mm. Meaning, I love, I
love it all for everybody.
Like, find what works for you.
So there's no right, wrong,
or negative judgment of it.
You know what I mean?
It's like my daughter's
in Catholic school.
I think it's a g- fantastic education.
It's an amazing community, and I have the
skills, uh, and knowledge to, you know,
kind of articulate what's dogma, what is
potentially should be open to different
interpretations, and where history…
You know what I mean?
So.
Devin Martin: Yeah, yeah.
Kelly Gores: I dunno.
It's cool.
Devin Martin: So did you figure
out how to audition from Love?
Was that- Was that
Kelly Gores: in the call?
No.
No, I stopped acting.
Uh
Devin Martin: Did it just, did
it, you start to realize it was
just- No … unhealthy for you?
And-
Kelly Gores: No.
I, what, what happened
was I started meditating.
Um, I started going to
Agape, which is this-
Devin Martin: Mm
Kelly Gores: non-deno-
trans-denominational, like you were
just mentioning, spiritual community
in LA led by Michael Beckwith.
Yeah.
Who I, who I kind of feel like
I discovered from The Secret.
And when I went to his services on
Sunday, he would be… He channels.
I mean, he just channels his-
Mm … thing, and he, he pulls from
Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity,
of course, and, and he's just,
you know, channeling truth, right?
And he's up there, and he's on fire.
I mean, he's lit up.
It's, like, very Baptist vibes.
Um, but I feel, like, the resonance
and the vibration in the room- Was
undeniable and, um, the, like, I'd
look around the room and there's
just this microcosm of the world.
It was just- Mm … every color,
shape, size, economic background.
You know, it was cool.
I was like, "Okay, this feels right."
And then, so I'd go into the bookstore
and just start reading, like Bruce
Lipton, Biology of Belief, and start-
Devin Martin: Mm-hmm.
Kelly Gores: And so I started
just becoming attuned to energy.
And like his, he would say, you know, "If
you have a calling in your heart, if you
have this thing pulling you, this vision,
like trust that you have everything.
Just like the oak tree is in the acorn,
you have everything you need to see it.
That's your vision.
If, if that energy is
pulling you, follow that.
There's… You will be led."
And so I started just, like,
really paying attention to the
energy and then I was like, okay.
I'd get really excited when I, um, booked
a job, but then I'd show up on set and I'd
be like, my body would just be drained- Mm
'cause there's, you're in the
makeup chair, and there's all these
people, and it's sit around and
wait, and then you're just… I, it
wasn't for me, you know, anymore.
Mm. You know?
And so I just became way more passionate
about understanding consciousness
and- Mm … human potential.
And people started coming up to me like,
"How," you know, "how are you so happy?
What do you eat?
What's your workout?
Like, tell me everything."
This is before Instagram.
Um, and so that's what s-
you know, inspired Heal.
I was like, I just need to put all my
teachers into a film to, like- show
people that anything is possible.
Like, we're designed to heal.
We've got so much more power than we've
been kind of led to believe and, you know?
Devin Martin: A lot of
people have big ideas.
Most of them don't take action.
Did you feel like these people
were accessible to you, or making
a movie was accessible to you?
Do you remember, like, what that
thought process was at the time?
Kelly Gores: I think it was, like, a
little bit of delusion b- but I, I really,
again, I'm just… I got more and more
attuned from t- transcendental meditation.
You create space.
Devin Martin: Was that your
first contemplative practice?
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: So I learned TM- Me as
well, yeah … from Light Watkins.
Shout out to Light.
And I started practicing, and
then once you create more space,
you become more sensitive.
And then I'd be listening to Michael
Beckwith up there bouncing around, and
he's, like, talking about the energy,
and just the resonance would be…
So I started just trusting the energy and,
like, contraction versus an expansion and-
Devin Martin: And did you have the
traditional agnostic or material
reductionist rational objection?
Like, were you struggling to believe?
A lot of people get exposed to this,
and there's some part of them that
goes, "No, this is woo," or, "This is
crazy," or, "This is magical thinking."
No, I- Did you g- you jumped right in?
Kelly Gores: I just dive right in.
Mm. When it, if it resonates, this
is like… It kinda reactivated
these knowings that I had-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Kelly Gores: when I was younger.
So I just started, like, really
trusting that, and I just l- was
learning so much, and then feeling
it, and going, "Okay, this is, it
has to be true because it resonates."
And then miracles would happen, and
manifestations would happen, and like,
okay, this stuff really works, you know?
Devin Martin: You started looking
for synchronicities and then-
Kelly Gores: I got proof, yeah,
um, over and over and over.
Mm.
I felt that I was so passionate about
and so knowing about this wisdom that
I believed, um, that I just trusted
Michael and followed my instinct.
And so it was, it, you know, put me
out of my comfort zone a little bit.
I had never directed a film- Mm … but
I had always wanted to direct, and I'd
grown up on film sets my whole life and…
But I was like, "Do I take a class?" You
know, I definitely procrastinated, uh,
out of fear for a little bit, and then
I just kept, like, believing, you know?
And, uh, and I said, "Okay,
if I've got this…" It was
something that I had to do.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: And my
husband was supportive.
God bless him.
He's just like, "Okay, do
what you need to do," and was
like, "Get it over with fast."
Like, let's
Devin Martin: get- And where
did you meet in all of this?
Kelly Gores: Um, we met around, so I
started meditating in 2007, going to
Agape, and it was around, you know, it
was, it was, like, a couple years later.
Mm. I met him in 2010.
Devin Martin: Okay.
Kelly Gores: So yeah.
Devin Martin: And then when did you
g- start for real on the documentary?
Kelly Gores: Um, that's a
great… So then I started-
'
Devin Martin: Cause it came out in 2017?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
I've, I started for real, I hi- I, I
started really thinking about it in 2013.
So it marinated for quite a while.
Mm.
I hired the producer in 2015, so it
was exactly two years from hiring
Adam to it releasing two years later.
Devin Martin: It was, okay.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And then it was just
like a… A- and did you know the
whole time who you wanted to be
in it and what the core idea was?
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Yeah.
So that w- that was kind of,
like, crystallizing over time.
Um, and I think in 2013 or '14, I read
Anita Moorjani's book, Dying to Be Me.
Devin Martin: Oh, I don't know that.
Kelly Gores: So she, um, Indian woman,
Hindu, and she grew up in, uh, Hong Kong.
Mm-hmm.
So she was, like, exposed to all these
Western ideas, yet she was from this
very traditional background, and so
she, um, was arranged to be marriage.
She broke that off, brought shame to
her family because she was, like, really
feeling kind of this freedom of Western
culture and wanted to marry for love.
And so her and her dad had
this tumultuous relationship.
She brought shame on her family.
She fell in love with this other guy,
and her best friend died of cancer.
So then she started fearing
cancer, and she got cancer.
She got- Really?
… uh, lymphoma.
And so she, because she's Indian, she
went back and did all the Ayurvedic stuff.
Uh, then she did Western because
the fear kinda took over,
and so she did everything.
And then, all of a sudden, she
finds herself, you know, 80
pounds, organs shutting down.
She's in the hospital.
Um, can't even find a vein, and the
doctors are basically like, "She's,
she's got lemon-sized tumors," like,
coming from her neck out of her skin-
Oh, wow … down to her abdomen.
And, like, there is not a professional or
layperson that could look at this woman
and say that she could ever recover.
Just, she's, she's gone.
And she was in a coma.
The doctors called her husband, and
her brother was flying in to say their
goodbyes, and she had a, she left her
body, had a near-death experience.
She joined her dad's consciousness
in, in the oneness in the other realm,
and all of the judgment had dissolved.
It was just love, and it was this,
like, telepathic communication
of, you know, like, y- "Now that
you understand this, like, go back
and live your life without fear."
She had this realization that-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Kelly Gores: she developed cancer because
she'd been living from fear her whole
life, fear of what her family would
think, fear of cancer, fear, fear.
And she was like, "Go back into that body?
No way.
I'm expanded-" "… in the oneness
of love that's, like, beyond human
comprehension." She's like, "I don't
wanna go back, and I'm with my dad,
and there's no, there's no contention."
Um, and so, but she had this knowing
that if she went back, she would heal.
So she found herself back in her body.
She woke up.
She recounted a conversation that her
husband and doctor, that she had never
met, had down the hall 40 feet away.
Mm. She recounted that she knew her
brother was flying in on a plane
that, because she had the vision- Wow
the all-knowingness.
All these, like, miraculous things,
and the, the doctors are like, "You're
hallucinating. This is crazy." Um,
anyways, within three weeks, no
cancer in her body, and sh- like,
five weeks, she, like, walked out
of the hospital and li- like, has
been speaking about it ever since.
But so that, the consistency of near-death
experiences and this love, this source
intelligence, love intelligence that we
come from and, uh, and go back to, that
kinda became my foundations when I read
her story, and she had recovered from
that Her physical body, for her physical
body that was so far gone, if she could
recover physically just with a shift in
consciousness, like anything is possible.
Yeah.
We can heal anything.
So that became my like, she was my
poster child, and I was ready to go.
Devin Martin: And you
wanted people to know.
You wanted to share the message.
Kelly Gores: Yeah, 'cause I just
thought people were sleepwalking.
Like, I had digestive issues, you know,
I didn't link the fact that I was,
like, eating frozen yogurt and cereal
for dinner, and, like, drinking, you
know, Two Buck Chuck, and, like, no
wonder I had acid reflux and- Mm-hmm
digestive issues.
Like, duh.
Um, I thought I was smart, but I
didn't know anything about nutrition
back then, and so I went to see
gastroenterologists, and they just-
Prescribed and- I'm like 28 years old,
and they gave me samples of Prilosec.
I'm like, "Medication is for old people.
What is… This is crazy." So I just
started becoming aware of, you know,
just lack of awareness led to us being
powerless and just at the mercy of
whatever these specialists threw at us- Mm
you know, for immediate relief.
But it was just treating the
symptom and not the root cause.
So I was like, "Yes,
everybody needs to know this."
Devin Martin: So did you say
no to the Prilosec and figure
out how to handle your gut?
Kelly Gores: Correct.
Yes.
I never took the Prilosec.
I was like, "This doesn't make sense." And
then I learned, taught myself, you know.
I enrolled in this, like, nutrition
course, integrative- Mm … Institute
of Integrative Nutrition.
Devin Martin: Oh, I was there.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
It was like, OG.
They sent you an IPad- iPod
with all the classes back then.
It was like- Oh, you did
Devin Martin: a remote?
Kelly Gores: It was one
of the first years, yeah.
Devin Martin: Oh, cool.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
So then I was like, "Oh, my
God. This is just basic," and I
didn't even know that they put…
The reason your cereal is
crunchy is because all these
preservatives they put in it.
Damn it, you know?
Devin Martin: Did you contemplate
becoming a holistic health coach?
Kelly Gores: You know, honestly, I
did not, 'cause I just don't have
that, uh… I'm just not built for
one-on-one, the, a job like that.
But, um, what I knew at the time was that
I was gripping onto acting so hard that I
needed something else to put my attention
on so that I could just, like, act for
fun, and, and put myself into, like,
either m- m- more study and learning.
I love being a student, so that's…
My intention was like I was either
gonna do USM, the University of, uh,
Santa Monica, which is a spiritual
psychology degree- Yeah … or IIN.
And at the time, IIN was less of a load.
Yeah.
So I committed to that.
But I just needed something that I
was passionate about or, or genuinely
would give me skill for my passion.
Um.
Devin Martin: And this was
before the documentary started?
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Yeah.
This is before.
Devin Martin: And had you, had you
had any experiences, near-death
experiences, out-of-body experiences,
these transcendent… Like, did this
just naturally make sense to you?
Kelly Gores: Um, I'm trying
to… Yeah, it just naturally- I
Devin Martin: mean, I, I did, I did
psychedelics and said that, like- Yeah
and I probably n- I was a hyper,
like, atheist material reductionist.
If I hadn't had- Yeah … my skull
blown open- Yeah … I probably
never would have gotten there.
But I feel like some people just
naturally walk in that direction.
Kelly Gores: I mean, I did
mushrooms in high school.
That like, you know, where we
get them from some drug dealer
and put them in Taco Bell tacos.
I mean, that was- It was not, it was
not a facilitated- I, I may have done
Devin Martin: that as well, actually.
Kelly Gores: So I'm not
encouraging that, kids.
Uh, but it was a transcendent experience.
And I- It was … I was on the beach
with my best friends and looking at
the stars, and like in that moment,
I just understood everything.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And so thank God
it was a positive experience.
I know it doesn't fare well for people.
You never know what the source is.
But, um, so again, kids, don't do drugs.
But, um-
Devin Martin: Unless you're with a,
in a sacred set and setting, and-
Kelly Gores: Correct.
Later … may,
Devin Martin: may be legal.
Kelly Gores: Exactly.
Exactly.
Way, yeah, I'm super into psychedelics
as a veil lifter, heart opener- Yeah
mind expander, but it must be facilitated
in, with integrity in the right,
um, yeah, frequency and setting.
Devin Martin: And for me, learning
meditation, which also started with
TM, it was like somebody pointed at a
giant mountain and they said, "Start
hiking." And because of psychedelics,
I had felt like I had been near
the peak, and so it, I was like,
"Okay, this is worth the effort."
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Devin Martin: But I don't think I ever
would have gotten there if I hadn't had
a glimpse, and then was like, "Okay,
how do I… I, this feels true and real.
How do I stabilize-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: this type of consciousness?"
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And so then I was
willing to do the hard work.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I learned TM, and I had such a
profound experience in that first four
days of my little group learning with- Mm
light.
It was like I felt, it's like dipping.
It was like a dip, like, where you just
literally come out of your body, and it's
for like a second, but you just lose.
You, like, get to the oneness,
and then you come back.
I was like, "Oh, I want more of that."
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: So there.
So tell me about
releasing the documentary.
Was… Did you have an expectation, like,
"This is gonna be a global phenomenon"?
Yes.
Were you scared people
were gonna judge you?
Like-
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Oh my God, it's terrifying.
It is so terrifying to
put yourself out there.
Yeah.
Um, who am I to make this documentary
with all these great teachers in it?
So I had an amazing editor who made
me look really good, um, an amazing
producer who was very supportive of
my- You know, it took me about a,
a month and a half to, like, really
gain confidence i- uh, filming.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: Um, and, and learn that
I had a strong opinion, 'cause at
the beginning I was like the producer
and the cinematographer, the DP had
much more experience and, um, I was
just deferring to them, like getting-
'
Devin Martin: Cause you've been on
camera, but as an actress, people give you
words and you- Yeah … read the script.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: You're not- And now,
now this is you representing yourself.
Kelly Gores: Now this is me having
to, like, what shot do I want?
What do I want the set up to look like?
Directing and
Devin Martin: being on camera.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
So, uh, but then I realized, I
was like, "Wait, I have a really
strong opinion," and that's
really all you need as a director.
Like, to be honest.
And a really supportive crew.
Um, so it was awesome.
And, uh, there was times, for
sure, insecurities came up.
I wanted to cut myself out of the film.
Like I told my editor and my producer,
I was like, "I think we should do a
version where I'm not in it at all."
Devin Martin: Mm.
'
Kelly Gores: Cause I really was,
again, hypervigilant and attuned to
the fact that I am an previous actor,
and I didn't want anybody's perception
Again, I'm still trying to
control people's perception of me.
Futile, again, but I didn't want anybody
to belie- think that I was, like, a
failed actor inserting myself in a film.
Mm. I didn't want it to
be egocentric at all.
So super hypersensitive to that.
And they both looked at me and
laughed, and they're like, "No, no,
you're the whole bridge of this film."
Right.
Um, so thank God it was received well.
And, um-
Devin Martin: And with a documentary
called Heal, I think most people
would assume you were really sick
and you had some miraculous recovery.
Kelly Gores: I know.
I know.
Devin Martin: But that wasn't what
was driving you, it was curiosity and-
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
I know.
I wish I had just a really easy-
Devin Martin: Yeah, just- Just
Kelly Gores: for, you know, like- A
Devin Martin: great story to
Kelly Gores: tell
correct.
And it's, it's far more complicated
and m- long and windy than that.
It was, yeah.
Devin Martin: But I have to think
that somehow served the story.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
I know.
I don't know.
Um, I did get diagnosed with Lyme
disease before I did the film,
and, and when I was pitching it-
Devin Martin: You're m- you
manifested Lyme disease, so you-
Kelly Gores: Exactly.
Um, but because I, again, I'm just like,
I'm, I'm, I'm not an alarmist, and I'm
pretty, like, allergic to drama, so when I
got the diagnosis, I told my doctor, I was
like, 'cause I got mold, mycotoxins were-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Kelly Gores: rampant in my system,
and the two, two of the three
markers for Lyme kept showing up.
So I said, "Well, let's
just flush the mold out.
Let's deal with the mold, um, 'cause that
feels more, like, currently debilitating,
and I'm not having any neurological or
acute Lyme symptoms, so keep an eye on
the Lyme, treat the mold." And, you know,
I was very lucky that I'm super healthy,
and we flushed the mold out over six
months with, like, IVs and high- Mm-hmm
doses of vitamin C and glutathione,
and then later some binders.
And then when I retested for both,
the Lyme markers were no longer- Oh,
Devin Martin: wow
…
Kelly Gores: active.
So, um, I'm sure I still have it in my
system, uh, and I'm sure I've had, like,
a flare-up, uh, a year ago recently, but-
Devin Martin: I mean, this is the message,
though, like our bodies can handle- Yeah
an immense amount, including cancer.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
We
Devin Martin: all, I believe, have
cancer all the time in tiny little
doses, and our body handles it.
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And when we're optimized-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: energetically,
emotionally, you know, nutritionally-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: all the ways … we s- we
Kelly Gores: stay in balance.
Devin Martin: So but you didn't
use the film to explore that.
You were more-
Kelly Gores: No, at that point I was
like, "This is… it's… it would be-"
I was just like, "Let's just deal…"
You know, I- it felt like I would have a
violin if it… I was very acutely aware.
There was a moment right after the
diagnosis where I felt a little panic come
up, and I just had this conscious moment
of awareness going, "I could call and,
like, really lean into this for sympathy
and get a lot of attention," you know?
Mm. But I was just like, "That's what
we do when we're younger, because we
need love and attention." And I'm just
like, "Nope, I'm not gonna go down that.
I'm gonna trust my body.
Not gonna tell that many people.
I'm not gonna make this a thing."
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: So that was my
choice, and it, it resolved
very quickly because of that.
Devin Martin: And I have seen people
make their illness their identity.
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And I think it can
be harder to let go of when you get
these beautiful responses and sympathy
and- Yeah … you know, I think all
of this is complicated, as I'm sure-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: you found out when
you released this and- Mm … people
challenge the idea that we
create and heal our own illness.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Devin Martin: But it's certainly a
bigger factor than we tend to assume.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Devin Martin: So what was the response?
Kelly Gores: Um-
Devin Martin: And this is before
huge social media following.
Yeah.
How, like, how did the movie catch hold?
How did people find out about it?
Kelly Gores: We did a, we… You know, I
really thought the smartest way to gain
kind of momentum and ex- We didn't have
any budget for marketing or anything.
Mm-hmm.
So we just were preaching to the choir.
I said, "There's a whole community of
people that already believe this, that
are ripe for this. Let's preach it to
the choir, and then if they find it
resonant, they will share it to all
their friends and families that are
beginning to be open to these ideas."
And that's kinda what we did.
Mm-hmm.
So we did this kinda grassroots push and
I think, you know, we were, it was, social
media was around back then, so we were
just, like, teasing it and then getting
these community screenings together.
So we started doing… We did, we
did film festivals, and then we
got some laurels and awards- Mm
and we could hype around that.
And then we got people together,
like, to be able to host screenings
and, like, come together that,
you know, yoga communities and-
Devin Martin: Yeah
…
Kelly Gores: um, all these holistic
healers and chiropractors and people
that were open to these ideas.
We got them to host screenings,
and it just built up until
the actual release on iTunes.
Mm. And then it was the number one
documentary, 'cause there was so
much anticipation, because the people
who had hosted screenings, they were
like, "Oh my gosh, everybody needs
to see this." And so once it was
available, everybody downloaded it.
It was the number one documentary for
the first, like, six weeks I think.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, and four weeks after that,
or three weeks- January of 2018 hits
and my distributor calls and says,
"Kelly, I'm so sorry and I, I know that
you wanted this on Netflix, but they
just sent out an industry-wide memo
that said, 'Don't bother submitting
any independent films. We are putting
all our money into original content.'"
This is the beginning of the Netflix-
Oh, yeah … original series.
And I said, "Okay, well, that is certainly
a bummer, and also it's gonna take time
for them to create all that content and
put that money to work, so keep knocking.
I just see it in my bones.
I like-" Mm … I see it in my
mind's eye, like it's on Netflix."
And he, he calls me like three or four
weeks later and he's like, "You're
right." He's like, "Netflix took it."
He's like, "It's releasing… They're
not releasing it until February of 2019,
but they want it." And I was like, "Yes."
I'm so glad, 'cause I am not the type of
person that is persistent to the point
of annoying, but it was just this thing.
I was like, "Yes." But you have
Devin Martin: intuition.
Kelly Gores: I have intuition, and
I will persist when I know things.
Devin Martin: Mm. So then
it reached a wide audience.
Kelly Gores: Then it
reached a wide audience.
And- So it just had this like step,
you know, and then a year into the
two-year Netflix deal, COVID hit.
Mm. Exactly two, you know,
the, after February 2020.
And then everybody was sitting
at home just consuming any
sort of hopeful content.
So it just had a nice little life
of its own and became… So I got
really lucky with the timing, too.
Devin Martin: Did you also experience
poking the bear, like- … the Western
medical system having an immune system?
Kelly Gores: I laughed so
hard at that because this is
one of my favorite stories.
It's a terrible story,
but it's kinda funny.
Um, I was ve- I tried to be very
diplomatic in my delivery, where I
wasn't villainizing anything, but
I was just shining the light like,
"Maybe the pharmaceutical company
doesn't always have your best interest,
and doctors are doing the best they
can to give you relief, but…"
You know, most of the time, and
sometimes we need medication in an
acute situation to bridge you, um,
but for chronic illness, you gotta
get to the root to actually heal.
You can't just, like, turn off the smoke
alarm, which is the symptom, the rash, the
a- the, you know, the reflex, uh, all that
stuff, the pains, the aches, the fatigue.
So I'm at this Maui film festival, and
I'm on a panel with, uh, Pierce Brosnan's
wife, Keely, who's doing an amazing
environmental documentary, um, and
this other guy, and I'm blanking on his
name, but he did, um… He was hiking,
and he came upon a dead bear, and he,
um- … touched the bear, I don't know
if it with his hand or with a stick,
but the bear was, like, lying there,
and the bear had gotten electrocuted,
so it was, like, fully charged, and
he, this guy got electrocuted, and
he, so he literally poked the bear and
then, like, lost his arm- Oh my god
'cause he got zapped.
Oh, so it
Devin Martin: was actually dead.
I thought you were gonna say it woke up.
Kelly Gores: No, it was, it was fried,
but it, unfortunately, the, the, this
guy, this documentary- Wow … filmmaker
got electrocuted and lost his arm.
So he's sitting next to me on
the panel, and, um, someone asked
me this exact same question.
I w- I, I- … know this guy's story.
I'm sitting next to him on the
thing, and they asked me about
big pharma and, like, any pushback
from them, and I was like, "Well, I
really didn't wanna poke the bear."
And I'm fucking-
Devin Martin: Poor guy.
Kelly Gores: Poor… And I don't
even realize it at the time.
I'm just, like, talking the same, and
then later at dinner, like two hours
later, I'm sitting in the restaurant at
the hotel, and I'm like, "Oh my God."
"I did not do that." Like,
I was, I was mortified.
I started crying 'cause I was like, "This
f- I mean, I cannot believe I freaking
said that. Like, how unconscious was
I?" But it was kinda funny in hindsight.
I think I reached out to him and was like,
"I am so sorry. Like, I can't-" I bet
Devin Martin: he got a kick out of
Kelly Gores: it.
He got a total kick out
of it, but it was stupid.
But
Devin Martin: did you experience any…
Kelly Gores: I don't know So yeah, I, I
mean, I never read reviews, uh- Really?
… 'cause I just… Yeah, I mean, maybe,
sometimes I dabble, but, like, for
the most part, again, like, if I
know what resonates with me, like,
I, I, I- Mm-hmm … just go, if
it's gonna resonate with you, great.
If it's doesn't resonate with you, great.
It's not- So
Devin Martin: you're perfectly
healed from being a people pleaser.
Kelly Gores: Well, I, in some ways.
If there's, like, a digital
wall, like, sometimes I
Devin Martin: am.
Hmm.
Kelly Gores: But s- only recently,
people have told me, well, that,
you know, there's a lot of reviews
on Amazon from the very early days
saying, "Oh, this is pseudoscience.
There's not science in this.
Da, da, da, da.
It's all woo woo.
You know, Deepak Chopra is a hack,
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And
And there's like epigenetics in there.
There's p- there's all sorts of science-
Mm … in my film, but a lot of people
say it was not n- enough science.
And I'm like, "Well, I'm just sharing…"
So now I'm at this mature place 10
years later where of course I'm gonna…
A lot of science is catching up
now to- Yeah … the mystical,
um, which is wonderful, and like
demonstrating with modern technology
what ancient wisdom has known
forever, which is a big part of Heal.
And so for this next film that I'm
doing, it's just, I am fully leaning
into my intuition and knowing, and like
really, like it's amazing to step into
my power in that way and like- It's, it,
it just feels like a full co-creation.
Like, this film wants to be made, it's
coming through me, and I'm just staying
present and being shown the next step.
It's wild, and I just have to trust that.
And when I start to overthink and go,
"Oh, I need to do it this way to please
this group of people," or whatever,
it's like, no, this is my art, this is
my expression, this is my co-creation,
and it's gonna resonate with people- Mm
and, 'cause it resonates with me.
And it's not gonna resonate with a lot
of people, 'cause we're all on different
frequencies of, of awakeness, you know?
And not saying m- I'm right
or superior or inferior.
Like, I'm sure I'm, I'm far more
inferior in my consciousness than
many people walking the planet.
But I just have to do what's true
for me, and trust that that is
what divine wants to come through.
Devin Martin: Mm. W- so since the
movie came out, there was a book.
You've been doing- Yes … a podcast.
We, you just told me every single week.
Yeah.
For six or seven years?
Kelly Gores: It's been, uh… It'll be
five years, and I did take one year off.
Devin Martin: Oh, you did?
Kelly Gores: Yeah, 'cause I… Yeah.
Devin Martin: And then how did, how did
all the, the new documentary come about?
Like, what was the genesis of that?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: What, what has
been building in the background?
Kelly Gores: So life happened.
So I m- when Heal came out and was
a success, my DVD publisher also had
done The Secret with Rhonda Byrne.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And they said, you know,
"We see the very similar trajectory,"
although I don't think it's been
watched by millions, uh, like her
s- documentary has, but who knows?
But he said, "You need to write the book,
because there's so much content you had
that you weren't able to put in the film.
I told Rhonda to do the same thing, and
it was a wi- the book was a wild success."
So I did that, and I had, um, that was,
like, in, I think the contract was done
by April, and I started kind of writing.
And I was like, "I'm just gonna
finish it in Jan- uh, September."
So I took September, like, off
to finish this book, and at the
very end of August I got pregnant.
Oh, wow.
So all of my creative
juices- … went to my uterus.
Yes.
Um, and it was just, like, kind of
like a grueling, like I was preg- like
had to get through those first three
months of nausea, and then, you know,
the book, they were, like, waiting.
And so I really just had to get
that book out while I was- You got a
Devin Martin: little, like, three-month
window in the second trimester to-
Kelly Gores: Yeah, exactly … to
Devin Martin: function before- It's
definitely … everything changes.
Kelly Gores: So I had a, um,
ghostwriter help me just, like,
with the organizational stuff.
Mm-hmm.
But I love writing, so she
helped me in those times of,
you know, uh, pregnancy brain.
But, um, all of that to
say I had the baby in May.
In October the book released, and I
was like, "I'm gonna do two months of
PR, and then I'm just shutting it down,
'cause I am burnt out- Mm … between
the film, the pregnancy, and writing
the book." And then COVID hit-
Devin Martin: Oh,
Kelly Gores: yeah … that month.
Like, you know, January it started.
And so I- Very much relaxed, you
know, with everybody in our homes
for the first couple months, and then
I just started w- witnessing, like,
this unraveling because of all this
fear-mongering and, like, the narrative
that was being thrown through the news.
And I had just spent 10 years researching
the immune system and healing potential,
and I'm like, "Oh, this is, this is
going down the wrong tracks," you know?
Yeah.
Like, this is not good.
So I felt compelled to, um, get into the
conversation, so I started doing Lives.
I started doing, like- Mm-hmm … online
conversations with Joe Dispenza,
Gregg Braden, people that were in
my film, just to, like, keep people
hopeful and, like, robust and-
Devin Martin: Did you get pulled
into the fear at all with COVID?
Kelly Gores: I did not.
Devin Martin: No.
Kelly Gores: No.
The only thing I… that had, like,
a little niggling of a doubt was
that, like, oh, maybe this thing was,
uh, part of research born in a lab.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And in those genetically
modified, you know, circumstances,
like, a little unknown.
But I'm just like, viruses
are packets of information.
We are meant to take in that
information and evolve and- More
Devin Martin: of a
Kelly Gores: Zach Bush-
upgrade the system.
Yeah, for sure
Devin Martin: Have you heard
the Lyme story of the Wuhan
version of the Lyme story?
Kelly Gores: No.
Devin Martin: There just so happened to be
a government-owned facility in or next to
Lyme, Connecticut- Oh, yeah … where they
were exploring using ticks as vectors-
Kelly Gores: Mm
…
Devin Martin: to, for biological warfare.
Kelly Gores: Mm-hmm.
Devin Martin: And th- they may or
may not have developed something
which got out of the lab there.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Uh, a, a client of
mine was purchasing the book rights
to make a documentary about that.
Kelly Gores: Wow.
Devin Martin: But-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: it seems we, we may
have made this mistake once before.
Kelly Gores: Gain of function happening
m- more than we know, I'm sure.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Sorry, so that, so that puts
you back in… And was that energizing?
I mean, you were burnt out.
Did that get you-
Kelly Gores: Um, I was still burnt out.
And that, so then I did the podcast,
and then I started feeling, um,
really, like… Then the fear came
and the cancel culture craziness- Mm.
Devin Martin: Yeah
… '
Kelly Gores: cause this vaccine
was coming out and whatever.
Or the vaccine came out.
Devin Martin: And content like
yours was getting suppressed.
Kelly Gores: Well, I was, again,
coming at it with my people-pleasing,
uh, management of perception.
Devin Martin: You were not saying,
"Everybody take ivermectin." You
were not- … part of that group.
I
Kelly Gores: was, I was trying to
diplomatically lob out some suggestions
without, you know, preaching and, um, or
sharing exactly how I felt and my beliefs.
I was the only one in my entire
family that didn't get the vaccine.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: Just because
I thought differently.
And, um, and, and that, you know,
just dodging… I know everybody
had the dynamics in their own
family, like you can't be around
people because they're in… Yeah.
You know, and again, I was like not
judging, but I was just trying to
educate those closest to me to, you know.
But, um, so then at the… So in the
fall, after the vaccine had rolled
out, um, I interviewed Bobby Kennedy.
My, my, my need to share truth kept
pulling me, but it was very stressful
because it was in this also flare up
of cancel culture and, and I d- I,
I have to admit, like, I was fearful
of that, um, attack, you know?
So I was trying to be super
diplomatic, and I was just trying
to give, use my platform to give
voice to both sides of the matter.
So I interviewed Robert Malone,
um, and Bobby Kennedy, and after
those two interviews, I d- I didn't
get… I think I lost, like, five
followers on the newsletter that
gave- Yeah … some vitriolic, uh,
comments before they s- unsubscribed.
So it wasn't really that bad.
Um, but the stress of, like, the fear
of like, ugh, I wanna say what I wanna
say so badly, but I feel like I need,
just for other people, not even me,
for my husband, his business, like, I
have p- I just knew that I couldn't.
Um, and so, but it really was, like, a
moral dilemma for me, so that stressed me
out to the point where I'm like, I'm, I
need to take a year off and just, like-
Devin Martin: Really?
Kelly Gores: be with my daughter and yeah.
Devin Martin: Did it feel like a
decision to get canceled or step away?
Kelly Gores: It felt like-
Devin Martin: Like eventually you
were just gonna explode and something-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: was gonna come out?
Kelly Gores: I just knew I couldn't
because of the people I was…
I didn't want backlash to come
back on my… I could handle the
backlash towards me personally.
I couldn't handle anything negative
coming to my husband's business.
And
Devin Martin: was your husband aligned
with you in the way he saw this?
Kelly Gores: He, um, he was…
He really respects my opinion.
And-
Devin Martin: So, no
…
Kelly Gores: but he's like, he listens
to me, but he's also, he was in the
kind of upper bracket of the age group.
Mm. You know, he's 26 years older than me.
And, um, yeah, just different beliefs,
so… But he really respects me and
really understands where I'm coming from.
So he doesn't think I'm crazy,
and he thinks that there's a
lot of truth, so he resonates.
But and also, like, for sure got
the first two shots, you know?
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Which made sense for him
and his age group and his family, and I
Devin Martin: had- Right, right
Kelly Gores: I, I was, like, not gonna…
I'm, I'm… I let everybody do what
they want, that they think is best.
I really believe that whatever people
believe is best for them is what they
should do, whether it's full conventional,
holistic, or a combination of both.
Devin Martin: So how did it feel to step
away and not be in the conversation?
Kelly Gores: It felt, it felt good.
I think that was, like, the, the burnout,
reaching max capacity and- Mm … but then
I had to deal with my own personal life
and, and, you know, um, so that was 2021.
So 2022, we moved out of our house.
There were some pretty gnarly personal
things happening in our world.
In the marriage?
Just, um, in the orbit of our marriage.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: And that s- woke something
up in me that I was like, "Wow, I
can't, uh, stay in this marriage."
Devin Martin: Mm.
"
Kelly Gores: It'd be really hard if
things don't change." It was outside
people that were having an effect
on our marriage that I didn't have
a say in, so I felt very powerless.
And that was halfway
through 2022, and then…
But I loved my husband dearly, and I
loved our life, and, um, his family and
his kids and- It was a shitty, shitty
exercise to go through, but we went
through like a year of just therapy
and trying to figure it out and, uh-
Devin Martin: And as, uh, a
perfectionist, maybe Type A-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: somebody who is busy-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: not working, did you
just take on the marriage full time?
Like, how did you occupy yourself?
Was it just like, "Okay,
I'm gonna solve this"?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
I mean, I was… I- he's, he lives a
full life, like I didn't… I've- we
were plenty busy without me working.
That was probably half of the burnout too.
Mm-hmm.
Like, to juggle both my career and his
busy life, and we were always traveling
for his work, and so, um, there was…
it was like a seamless… It was
just nice to not have to worry
about my stuff for a while.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, and I was trying to figure
out and survive in my marriage, and
have like a four-year-old, you know?
Oh, right Who… So just it was a
lot to sort through, and I really
didn't… I, I'm, I'm not his first
wife, and I really was determined
to like make it work and not-
Devin Martin: Mm
Kelly Gores: end in another divorce.
And, um, and again, like I said, I like
really loved him and I loved our life
together and, uh, but in the end, in, in,
we decided to separate, and, um, yeah.
So like consciously parenting
my kid tr- and realizing like,
wow, I was never taught how
to… Nobody never named emotion,
nobody ever named emotions for me.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: So like they teach
you in conscious parenting just to
like hold space, keep them safe,
and just stay calm while they
have their big emotional outburst.
You name their emotions, like, "Wow,
that really upset you," so they start
to have emotional literacy, and you
just make it okay for them to be
feeling whatever they're feeling,
and just keep them safe and like-
Devin Martin: Mm
Kelly Gores: once the tantrum stops,
then you guys can have a dialogue later.
And I just found myself really like
not having the skills to do that.
Like going- Mm … "God, I don't even know
how to name your feelings. I can't name
mine." And I'm emotionally like distraught
more than ever in my entire life because
of this marriage stuff and the peripheral
stuff and everything else going on.
So it was a lot emotionally,
and then we decided to separate.
Which was heartbreaking, and so I went
through six months of grieving, and then
I feel like I was coming out of that,
and house burned down in the Palisades
fire- Oh, man … like a month later.
Uh, so had to deal with that.
So it's just been an
emotionally really intense time.
Yeah.
But around this, like a couple months
before we officially decided to
separate, um, I got the download.
Because of this emotionally intense
period- Mm … and I wasn't equipped,
and I've done personal development and
meditation, and I f- consider myself very
intelligent and conscious, like flailing
through all this, I was like, "We've,
we've never been taught how to feel."
So I really, I just got the idea for
the next film, to like really dive into,
like, what… How are we wired as humans?
Like, what is this thing
called the nervous system?
What exactly are emotions and feelings,
or versus feelings, and how do we feel?
How do we move through emotion in a
healthy, present way, um, and take the
information so it doesn't get trapped in
our body and mess up our nervous system?
And, uh, you know, all this, like,
trauma release that everybody's into.
It's like, well, let, let's, let's learn
how to have emotional capacity so we
don't store trauma in our body, you know?
Devin Martin: Do you have a
working definition of emotion?
Kelly Gores: Um… Oh.
And
Devin Martin: I f- I feel bad asking
'cause it's a- Yeah, it's a big one.
… it's an impossible question.
Well, it's, it's a moving target, right?
Yeah.
It's, there aren't clear boundaries.
Kelly Gores: Yeah, I mean, I
feel like it's, they're informa-
like, emotions are information.
That's energy.
It's, and you know, the-
Devin Martin: I like
that, energy in motion
…
Kelly Gores: energy in motion, yeah.
So it definitely wants to have
a flow and an avenue to move
through the system, and have the
consciousness understand what it's…
Like anger is showing us that
maybe a boundary has been violated.
Um, grief, you know, so, like, I
have this general sense of, like,
grief is processed in the lungs and-
Mm … around this heart chakra.
Anger is more down here, you know,
in the liver, and this… S- so, you
know, um- I think it's really important
not to judge emotions as good or bad.
Some are more difficult to sit with-
Devin Martin: Yeah
…
Kelly Gores: than others, but they
all have deep wisdom to guide us.
And then, like, the nuance of, like,
what emotions are actually coming
from truth and what are emotions
are coming from story, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And, like, story is because of how
our nervous system is wired and,
like, what we perceive as safety.
And, and that's, like, what I really wanna
just, like, strip away so people can go,
"Ah, oh my gosh, this is, this is how I'm
wired. This is why I keep attracting these
relationships. These are these behaviors
and these masks that I've created to adapt
and find safety in the world, and h- this
is how I shed all of that and come back to
my truth and my true expression and self."
Devin Martin: Mm. And so is the, is
Feel looking at every layer from the
psychology to the physiology, like,
looking at trauma- Mm-hmm … how
it's stored in the body and the mind?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Yep.
The whole-
Devin Martin: And are, is there a, a,
again, a team of experts that you had in
mind at the beginning, or this is a little
more of a real time evolving process?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
I had a, I had a gr- I've had, like,
a whiteboard of a working, evolving
group of experts, and I really…
It's so funny 'cause I've, I've
been in this world now for a decade.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: And I have all these
wonderful friends, and everybody's
like, "I wanna be in the film,"
and I'm like, "I, God, I want you
in the film, but I just have to be
really-" I have to really trust in…
That's why I'm, like, leaning into this
co-creation thing, because if I try to
figure it out intellectually, it would
be so stressful, because I know so
many people, and so many people have so
much value to add and wisdom to share.
And I'm just, like, really trusting
that this, this film is a living
organism, and it knows what it wants
to be, and I'm just, I'm just the
container and the channel through
which it's going to come to life.
And so I, you know, and I do feel
there's so much to explore that it,
it likely, if my knowing is correct,
will become an ongoing series.
Mm-hmm.
And then I can dive deeper into each
topic, um, a la Anthony Bourdain, you
know, endless parts unknown of feeling.
Tra- travel the world and- Yeah,
and highlight different cultures,
and ancient wisdom, and different
doctors and technologies all over
the world doing amazing things.
Devin Martin: And are you
comfortable being in the center
of it this time, being on camera?
Do you know your voice?
Kelly Gores: More comfortable, yeah.
And my producer is now, like, adamant.
She's like, "This has to be
your story." And a lot of my
daughter and our discovery…
Devin Martin: Is this more
your personal journey as well?
Kelly Gores: There's a little more
of my personal journey in it as well.
Hmm.
That's just how it's shaping up to be.
Like, I go on these, like, kind of
week-long experiences, whether it's
maybe, you know, microdosing ibogaine
down in- Hmm … Mexico, or this path
of love, uh, you know, emotional healing
thing that they have in Europe that
they're trying to bring to America.
I'm doing that in England, and I worked
with this woman, Carmen, down in Costa
Rica, who's incredible, and I did five
days of neural organization techniques.
So I'm experiencing all
these things and- So
Devin Martin: this is not
an intellectual exploration.
This, you're actually- Oh,
Kelly Gores: no, yeah … having
experiential- I'm in the
Devin Martin: fire … yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Which is great- … 'cause
I'm in this, like, express lane
of transformation and growth.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: But, you know, I
have to be vulnerable and stripped
open and willing to share.
Devin Martin: And so this is
challenging your boundaries of being
out in the public space in a new way.
I mean, you're, you're not gonna…
This is not you trying… You, you
can't be pleasing everyone while
going through these experiences.
No.
You, you can't be worried about
people judging it as woo and-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: you're just in it.
Kelly Gores: I've learned that
there's this one quote, because it
was, it was really painful in the
marriage, the leaving of the marriage.
There was a whole group of people that
just kind of like wrote me off after
I'd been in this family for I don't
know, like 12 to 14 years, you know?
And that was really
heartbreaking and hard for me.
And you know, I just, I heard this
quote that was like, "For the people
that…" On, uh, the people that
it's either understand you or see
you, no explanation is necessary.
Mm. The people that don't
see you or understand you,
no explanation will suffice.
So I'm really leaning into this, I don't
need to be everything for everyone.
I have a following because I'm genuine and
authentic in my curiosity and searching.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: And I am genuine
and, and authentic in my desire
to help people relieve suffering
and live their highest potential.
So all I can do is, like, continue to
strip away anything that's not authentic
for myself, and feel and share what
is resonant to me, and give people a
buffet of options, and encourage them,
like I wanna encourage the audience,
to feel into what resonates with them,
and chuck everything else, you know?
Devin Martin: How do you handle… And
you're, you're, you're talking very openly
about your father and his limitations.
Mm-hmm.
And he, he can hear this if he wants to.
Your mother.
Ah.
Your ex.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Do you have s- a sense
of how to censor or not censor?
Or is- Yeah … is everybody just saying,
"Go ahead. It's, it's your life." Yeah.
Kelly Gores: "You can include me
in it." I mean, they all say that.
I'm sure it, there's some things
that are hurtful and hard for people
to hear, and I just continue to
try to shroud everything in love.
Like, my ex, I truly love the
man, and there's blind spots
and growth that can occur-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Kelly Gores: on him as well as me.
You know?
Like, I, I'm not innocent
in this whole thing.
Like, we, couples, it takes two, right?
So, and a lot of our issues, I
would say 90%, were because of
peripheral, um, toxicity, uh, of
which, you know, we have to take some
responsibility of creating and allowing.
But, um, yeah, I just try to
be… I'm trying to get to a
point in my life where I'm really
just non-judgmental, and I'm- Mm
what, more grace with myself
as I am human, and I'm… If
you hurt people, you repair.
Like, don't wallow in guilt and shame.
It's like, you just, you just, everybody
is doing the best with the level of
consciousness that they have, you know?
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Um, let me
let her out real quick.
Sorry.
Devin Martin: I didn't
know she was locked in
Kelly Gores: She's like,
"Woo. Let me out." Um
Devin Martin: Can you give us a preview?
Is it, like, what's the most
provocative thing you're exploring?
Do you have a sense of where- … where
the bear is lying this time?
Kelly Gores: Oh, gosh.
Don't poke the bear.
Um, well, I've been told by two
intuitives to really take big risks.
Mm. So I, I don't have a
sense of what that is yet.
Probably will come when I'm editing.
Mm. Um, and it just is giving me
more courage to push myself in those
moments of emotional vulnerability.
So I will just say that, um, it's gonna
be visually just, like, such a fan… I
mean, we're filming all over the world.
We're going to Africa, uh, you know,
Costa Rica, Mexico, England, countryside.
Like, it's gonna be
just, maybe New Zealand.
Climbing
Devin Martin: mountains.
Kelly Gores: Oh, yeah.
Hello, Tibet and Nepal, which
is a whole nother crazy thing.
So it's a, it's an international really
beautiful, uh, adventure, and I think-
Devin Martin: Does it feel like
the world's more ready this time?
Kelly Gores: For sure.
I mean, yeah, yeah.
I think it's like the timing is perfect.
That's why we're, we have the pedal
to the metal because everybody's
aware now of nervous system healing
and trauma in the body and, you know.
Devin Martin: Do you have a sense,
like I, I feel like I'm… You know,
I've been working as a coach for
almost 20 years, and I hang out with
all these spiritual people, and my
wife's a psychotherapist, and like I
sometimes forget that I'm in a bubble.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Yes.
Devin Martin: And I, and I will talk
about like, "Oh, yeah, we're gonna go
do ibogaine" And then people are like,
"What does that word mean?" Or, you know?
Kelly Gores: I know.
It's like natural to us, and everyone's
like, "What?" Yeah, there's definitely
people at different levels of, um,
awareness of this stuff, you know?
So with Heal, people just would come
up to me and be like, "I, I loved Heal.
I shared it with my family.
Like, I b- I, I watched it and then
I immediately watched it again with
my husband." Mm. "And he's not, not
even into this stuff, and he like sat
through the whole thing." Like, so I'm
hoping, again, like there is a whole
choir of which the bubble that we are
in- Yeah … that are ready and ripe
for it and probably excited to see a lot
of these concepts cohese in one place.
Um, and then they're gonna share it with
their loved ones who need to find… I
mean, everybody's suffering from a mental
and emotional situation at this point.
Like I am robust with resources
and friends and, and, it's, the
modern life is a fricking struggle.
It's just intense.
We are, you know, like the flood
in Nepal, everybody's reaching out
'cause we were there earlier this
year doing the exact same pilgrimage,
and it's just so devastating.
And, you know, some people are like,
"It's the climate change and the
glacier and da, da, da" And I'm like,
it felt like a biblical flood, right?
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: Um, and, and these things
have been, these, these big weather things
have been happening- Throughout time,
you know, floods, fires, it's biblical
Devin Martin: Yeah
Kelly Gores: And, but we've
never had a front row seat to
the wars, and the crimes- Right
and the violence, and the death,
and the, like, massive deaths
that we just saw in the floods.
So it's really jarring to our
nervous systems, you know?
And, um, so yeah, I think,
I think everybody needs it.
Not everybody's gonna be open to it,
but we'll have plenty of audience that-
Devin Martin: Do you deal
with social media or AI or
the role of technology in…
I mean, I think for a lot of people
it's a disembodied experience Mm-hmm
It may trigger things in us, but half
the time we're not even aware of it
'cause we're lost in a screen somewhere
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
For sure.
We'll touch on, you know, the suicide
rates of teenagers and the s- how
screens and Kind of false connections
through social media and all of that- Mm
will play a role in that mental
health crisis among adolescents.
Um, we'll also deal with AI, like
Zach Bush, uh- Mm … just came
out with a book, um, that deals
squarely with AI- Oh, does it?
… versus human, and the good
news, the conclusion is the
human, the body always wins.
Um, AI, amazing for efficiency, but the-
there's nothing that is more intelligent
than this system of the human body.
Devin Martin: No matter how many
transistors you stick together,
it's still pretty simple-
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
…
Devin Martin: compared to biology.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So that's cool to explore, but that,
we'll definitely touch on that- Mm … and
just how nature has all the answers.
Devin Martin: And then
what can we say about Held?
Kelly Gores: Um, Held is… So what
we found with Heal is we would have
these screenings and panels, and then
people would ask questions after.
They'd be like, "I get it.
I resonate.
I, I have hope.
Like I, I can s- I know I can
beat this thing." And then
they'll be like, "Now what?
Where do I find my people?
I can't get to these people in the film.
Where, where do I find
my people?" You know?
What next?
So what we learned is we wanted to create
an application that can, um, after someone
gets inspired by my documentary or the
next film that we're gonna do, 'cause we
have, like, this conscious media studio
in the works, um, awaken people or inspire
people, empower people with content,
and then they go to the app, which is
called Held, which teaches you the daily
practice so that you start to create
more resilience in your nervous system.
You start to shed all the inauthenticities
and the masks and the, the blind spots,
and start to reconnect to yourself, and
start to learn how to hold those parts
of you that you may have suppressed and,
um, bifurcated and bring you back to
wholeness, and just this, like, self-love
and compassion through daily practice.
Um, and we'll have a community aspect
to that because it's important not
to just be isolated on your screen.
Devin Martin: Yeah, and
then explain what it does.
I mean, it, there's a lot- Yeah
… it's not just a meditation app.
It's not just a practitioner database.
It's-
Kelly Gores: Yeah
…
Devin Martin: a lot of different things.
Kelly Gores: It's, um, through AI, which
is ironic, but we- You know, you gotta,
you gotta use some sort of it at this
point for efficiency and intelligence.
Like, it learns about the user, and
then we can meet you in the moment.
So over time, we learn so much about,
um, the person and, and we can serve
up, you know, three options of what
they need in this moment to support
them, whether it's a short, you know,
breathwork, a meditation, a more pa- pa-
uh, passive, like, frequency healing.
Devin Martin: Mm.
Kelly Gores: You know?
Um, so all these kind of- uh, sessions
that are proven to shift your nervous
system state and bring you back
into a state of safety and calm, and
start to practice that every day.
Or you could search the library
of your favorites, uh, if you,
if you want a longer meditation.
So you, if you, if you're not very
versed in this stuff, rather than
searching through a library of content,
we can actually meet you in the moment.
You just explain your emotional state,
you know, what you have time for,
and then we serve you up kind of-
Devin Martin: Mm
…
Kelly Gores: a session for you.
And-
Devin Martin: So is it
a, a chat interface?
You c- you can talk to it and get-
Kelly Gores: You can talk, you can write.
There's a, there's a journal
that you can do voice or text
into that over time, again-
Devin Martin: And it's getting to know
you and tailoring to you more specifically
it's getting
Kelly Gores: to know you, and
you're getting to know you.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Um, and the, one of
the coolest parts is we integrated
this HRV tech- Mm … that, um, is
one of the most accurate reads of-
Devin Martin: Where does
it work on the body?
Kelly Gores: You… It's a
finger camera technology.
Mm. Eventually it'll be a
face, facial recognition
technology just because- Really?
the cameras are changing on the iPhones
and the smartphones so fast that, um…
But right now, it's super accurate, way
more accurate than a wearable actually.
Devin Martin: Is it like
the HeartMath sensor?
Kelly Gores: It's similar
to a HeartMath sensor.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah Yeah.
So you hold it on the camera, um,
and it… So what we wanna encourage
people to do is every morning,
wake up, open the app, and read
their HRV so we get this baseline.
And then with the practice over time, your
heart rate variability- Yeah … which
is the HRV, will, should go up over time.
So you're, as a metric to
show you that you're building
resilience in your nervous system.
And it's really, like, cool.
I mean, there's so much more is
gonna come out with, about HRV.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Um, and why it's,
like, the most important metric for
balance and functionality of your,
of your body and, and nervous system.
Um, and then you can, you can read
it and be like, "Oh, it dipped. Oh,
yeah." Then it, you start to become
aware of, like, this acute stress.
Like, "Wow, that thing I keep ruminating
on with my boss is really having an
effect on me, because it's really
stressing out my system." So it, it
gives you data about yourself that helps
you to attune over time of how your
external environment or your internal
environment, your thoughts and these
ruminations, are taking a toll on your
system, so you can start to, again,
create more space through these practices.
Devin Martin: Which I think is the
potential of technology that we've missed,
which is to be a healthy mirror to help
you see yourself better as opposed to
a distorting or dissociating presence.
Kelly Gores: Correct.
I think we have come to a time where
we have this amazing technology
that is out of coherence with
nature and how we're designed.
Yeah.
And it's like we are intelligent
enough as a species, and we have
the most incredible technology.
Let's make our technology not destructive,
um, and, you know, like- Like, just
stripping away and, like, actually make
it coherent with the natural environment
and how we're designed as humans, and
get us back into our natural cycles.
Devin Martin: Do you have an
opinion on the role of psychedelics
in this transformation that
we're all going through?
'Cause it appear- I mean, Joe
Rogan's in the White House,
Trump's signing- … money for
research, RFK's in office, you know.
I, I was in the governor's office in
Texas when he signed a bill allocating
$50 million to study ibogaine.
Like, Rick Perry inspired this,
the most anti-drug governor,
I think, in America's history.
Like, something is shifting.
Kelly Gores: Yes.
Devin Martin: And it feels
to me like the technology and
consciousness are in a bit of a race.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: And psychedelics might be-
Kelly Gores: Helping
…
Devin Martin: urging
consciousness forward.
Yeah.
Kelly Gores: Yeah, I think, I, I speak
to so many people who have, like,
come up with business ideas or massive
solutions and, like, or, you know, gotten
sober or whatever it is on these, like,
through these psychedelic experiences.
So, so much potential to Gain clarity,
gain insight, um, heal parts of ourselves
that are blocking us from our path.
That being said, it's also like a Wild
West of- … of facilitation and access,
and, and I just wanna keep coming back
to, you know, plant medicine especially,
like, has been used in indigenous cultures
for millennia, and there's, there's a
real tradition and discipline around it.
And so when you're doing things as
powerful as ayahuasca and, and some
of these other plant medicines, like,
or even bufo, like the, you know, you
have to really be in a sacred setting
with- Yeah … someone who was trained
in the traditional ways to facilitate.
Because these are powerful medicines
in, in, like nature's technology
that lifts the veil, and when the
veil is lifted, like, you see and you
become aware of incredible things.
But that veil is like a portal, and
dark shit can come in too if it's not
facilitated correctly and y- protected.
And so a lot of people are having kind
of negative repercussions because it's
not facilitated in the right way, and
they're- Yeah … or they're just jumping
from peak experience to peak experience-
so, 'cause they just love the veil
being lifted, and they're just like,
"Whoa!" Um, and it's, and it's completely
having the negative opposite effect
on their nervous system, and they're
just whacked out of their minds.
So it's, it's, it's such a powerful tool.
Like anything, it's being abused right
now, so just if, if you're called to
explore, just really tune into checking
out and doing the research, and making
sure the person, um, th- that is
facilitating feels safe to your body.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Kelly Gores: And you're in a
setting that feels safe and open
and natural and coherent, you know?
Devin Martin: And my, my drum that
I keep beating, 'cause I do a lot of
psychedelic integration, is that- Mm-hmm
… psychedelics will show you the work.
Kelly Gores: Mm, yes.
Like,
Devin Martin: you're g- you might
have a peak state experience, but then
you are gonna be at the back at the
bottom of the mountain eventually,
having to hike up it and- Yes
Kelly Gores: and do- And
Devin Martin: do
Kelly Gores: the actual work,
Devin Martin: yeah … do the actual
work, daily practice, working with
coaches and therapists, you know,
regulating your nervous system.
Kelly Gores: Totally.
Devin Martin: I feel like you
get, often realize, "Oh, this
is what I can feel like."
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: But then it can
actually feel worse when it goes away.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Totally.
Yeah, the integration is so key, so you
have to be really skilled and have the
time and space to- Integrate all of that
amazingness that you saw on the experience
Devin Martin: Anything else come to mind
that I haven't asked you about that's
exciting and top of mind right now?
Kelly Gores: Um, I mean, we covered a lot.
I think you did good.
You did good.
Devin Martin: Yeah.
Cool, and people know where to find you.
I feel like, uh, it's a lot easier
to find you than me, so I shouldn't
be telling people where to find
Kelly Gores: you.
I mean, the documentary Heal, a lot
of people still call it a Netflix
documentary 'cause it was at one
time, but it is on Amazon Prime now,
so if you haven't seen Heal- Hmm
or want a refresher, go back
and see it on Amazon Prime.
But mostly active on Instagram,
uh, @healwithkelly is the podcast
and the documentary, and then,
um, my personal is @kellygoris.
Devin Martin: And when do we see
the new documentary and Held?
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
So Held should lau- is the app, and
that should launch, uh, in October
actually, so a couple months from now.
Devin Martin: And people can sign up
right now- Yes … to get notified?
Kelly Gores: Yeah, you can download
it from the App Store, um, and get a
code or something that's happening now.
So do that.
Uh, but, but it's, it's still in beta
testing, so if you wanna wait for it to
be, you know, singing and smooth, just,
just, you know, follow us on Instagram,
sign up for the newsletter, and get
informed, and you can get in early.
Um, and then the documentary,
all things going well.
Again, pedal to the metal.
We just started filming, uh, in May, so
we're hoping to be done filming by the
end of d- the year, editing for the, you
know, five, six months, and then out,
hopefully streaming end of next year.
Devin Martin: Amazing.
Kelly Gores: Yeah.
Devin Martin: Well, thank
you so much for coming on.
This was a lot of fun.
Kelly Gores: It was so great.
So we could talk for hours, so thank you.
Devin Martin: Absolutely.
Beautiful