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UNLOCKING CHANGE is a production of Colorado Radio for Justice (CRJ). It's an in-depth conversation between CRJ's system-impacted hosts and reporters with leading voices in the criminal-legal space. What is “justice”? What is “freedom”? How might these aspirations become real in our communities & across our culture? www.radioforjustice.org
[00:00:00]
[00:01:16] Cleave Simpson: I'm 63, I'll be 64 next week and like, I've been very blunt and clear. I have no other political aspirations. I just want to do things to make life better for my constituents.
[00:01:44] Ryan Conarro: Senator Cleave Simpson, welcome to the studio.
[00:01:46] Cleave Simpson: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you this morning.
[00:01:48] Ryan Conarro: Tell us a little bit about yourself,
[00:01:49] Meet Cleave Simpson
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[00:01:49] Ryan Conarro: Senator Cleave Simpson, but really just Cleave, just call me Cleave. I'm a Native Coloradan, I was born and raised on a farm in Alamosa, in the San Luis Valley. I still farm and [00:02:00] ranch to this day as well, so I'm the fourth generation of my family to do that in the San Luis Valley.
Was blessed to go to school at the Colorado School of Mines, I got an engineering degree and kind of spent my professional career mining coal in, uh, Texas and finished it in Australia. Married my high school sweetheart, so we like, have lots of family in the San Luis Valley. So in 2013 we moved back to Alamosa, um, took a job, uh at a place called the Rio Grande Water Conservation District and became their general manager in 2016, so water's kind of in my blood so to speak and what was really drove me drove an initial interest in running for office. I'd never been in politics before.
[00:02:48] Running for Senate District 6 Office
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[00:02:48] Ryan Conarro: Ran for office in 2020, got elected, uh, served my first term, uh, their four year term. So I finished that term in 2024 last year. Got reelected. Uh. Last year, and I represent Senate District six, which is 14 counties in Southern and Southwest Colorado. My district goes from San Luis in the San Luis Valley up to Montrose and Telluride. It's a big district. It's not quite the biggest one, but it's the most counties by four, it's pretty challenging to just try to be in all those places, you know, try to meet with people and commissioners and school districts and the list just goes on and on.
Some of the counties I represent in my community are the poorest for capita income in the state, and sometimes like in the nation. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you know, I represent Telluride and, and Durango and some of the most affluent places in the state as well. So quite a, you know, quite a juxtaposition of livelihoods, I guess across my, my district.
I'm embarrassed to say it, but I'm like 60, I'll be 64 next week. I'd never been to Telluride till I got [00:04:00] elected and it became part of my senate district, I go, maybe I should go to Telluride.
Yeah. I mean, I guess it's a little bit of a kind of a place you don't go by accident.
[00:04:07] Cleave Simpson: Yeah. It's not like on the way to anywhere. You have to, I mean, you gotta be wanting to go there.
[00:04:11] The Role of Senate Minority Leader
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[00:04:11] Herbert Alexander: What does it mean to be the Senate minority leader?
[00:04:17] Cleave Simpson: A target. No, it has a couple of meanings. One is working with leadership in the majority office, so the president of the Senate and the majority leader, just to make sure the Senate runs, like it doesn't bog down, and it operates in a, you know, atmosphere of professionalism and treating people with dignity and respect and just getting the business done that the senate's expected to do. And then secondly, trying to help my caucus members, the other Republicans in the Senate be successful in what they want to accomplish. and then selfishly for me is trying to bring, uh, more balance to the general assembly where we've been under one party control. Next year, we'll be eight years in a row where the Democratic Party controls the House and the Senate and the governor. And I've advocated, I'd say the same thing if the roles were flipped, but we would have better outcomes, um, for Coloradans if we had a more balanced conversation.
Like we spend an abundance of time like playing defense all the time. And again, without trying to be too political and one sided, but like trying to make what we would think are bad bills a littleless bad, and making really, really bad bills not come to fruition. So anyway, that's kind of in a nutshell what the role of the Senate minority leader is.
[00:05:44] The Infuence of Compassion
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[00:05:44] Cleave Simpson: You mentioned one of the things that's influencing your answers today is a sense of compassion. Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering where, where you feel that comes from for you?
I can't think of particular [00:06:00] instances like in my life where, oh, this, this pushed me towards being a more compassionate human being. I, it's just in my DNA to go, II want individuals to live a happy life. I want communities to be safe I want positive outcomes for, again, everybody in the state of Colorado.
When I'm at the capitol and I think about policies and and decisions, it's, that's part of what weighs into my analysis I think about those that are engaged in the criminal justice systems and victims in the community at large.
it's more complicated than just picking one end of the spectrum, either, either end of the spectrum.
it's so easy to just fit yourself in one camp or the other and forget about all that again, that nuanced conversation that should happen in the middle, in the middle space and trying to find again, how to get more positive outcomes for everybody impacted.
[00:06:57] Ryan Conarro: Do you feel like, is it accurate to say you represent the Republican Party at the state legislature?
[00:07:05] Cleave Simpson: Yeah, I think that's probably fair, yes.
[00:07:07] Ryan Conarro: So you can kind of be a spokesperson for the Republican party.
[00:07:10] Cleave Simpson: Yep.and again, much like this conversation, it's nuanced,
[00:07:16] Every Senator Represents Their Constituency
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[00:07:16] Cleave Simpson: We always talk about, particularly in the Senate Republican caucus, we don't take caucus positions, like we don't all sit around and agree this is what we're gonna do. Everybody's there to represent their constituency, largely they tend to align, but not always, there are certainly times, there's, one stands out really high in my memory from, um, in the criminal justice space.
[00:07:43] "Raising the Floor": A Moment of Unalignment with the Party
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[00:07:43] Cleave Simpson: Senate President James Coleman and I ran a, a bill two years ago. It was just characterized as raising the floor. So children 10 years older in Colorado can be incarcerated and become part of the criminal [00:08:00] justice system, and we were pushing forward an effort to raise that to 13 because,for me, the evidence showed once you get in the system, you tend to be, I don't wanna call it trapped, but you tend to get wrapped up in that And that's one of those areas where I was on an island all by myself and as a Republican. So it's, it's weird to say I'm the voice of the Republican party for the most part it's not like toeing the line a hundred percent. There are times I will deviate from what the party wants, so it's kind of weird.
[00:08:38] Ryan Conarro: what do you think is behind something like the fact that you were an island in that decision?
[00:08:42] Cleave Simpson: To be perfectly clear, the Democrats weren't in agreement either. Fear plays a big role in legislature. The little bit of history in this space was like, proponents for this idea approached me the year before and I kept saying, I, it doesn't quite feel right. I don't know if I can really advocate for this.I remember very distinctly reading an article in a, I think it was the Colorado Sun talked about youth, youth crime is escalating out of control. And it was like this tipping point for me to go, well if, if we're gonna do something. We're gonna do something about youth crime. We can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. And I just latched onto this concept that if we can get kids and we were advocating resources to help these kids and get 'em in to places that they currently didn't have. If you get wrapped up in the criminal justice system, sometimes those resources weren't available to 'em. So that was a whole philosophy. But like people with juvenile crime on the increase, everybody, Republicans and Democrats were like, I can't support not holding a 10-year-old kid accountable for a violent crime. I get it. But I think there are alternatives.It wasn't just [00:10:00] Republicans, it was the body.Even my Democratic colleagues were reluctant to step into that space.
[00:10:05] Ryan Conarro: Do you think that's because of personal convictions and values?
[00:10:10] Cleave Simpson: Certainly personal values weigh into that. And look, political futures weigh into that, reelection weighs into that. And like, again, I touched on it, I'm 63, I'll be 64 next week. And like I've been very blunt and clear. I have no other political aspirations. I just want to do things to make life better for my constituents.
but I would feel pretty confident saying there certainly were people that said. I might not get reelected if I vote in favor of reducing or, or the perception that if you raise the floor, you're just gonna let kids run amuck and we'll have even more juvenile crime.
If you don't get people the help and resources they need, they're just gonna continue in that space potentially. That's an oversimplification, but it's part of the, part of the calculation.
[00:11:03] Perspectives on Extreme Sentencing
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[00:11:03] Herbert Alexander: So the habitual is a three strikes law, um, basically, and the origins of it is pretty crazy.
I really can't go into the specifics of it, but
[00:11:14] Cleave Simpson: I just want to ask you do, how do you feel about somebody getting an extended sentence for crimes that they've previously committed and have already paid for?The easy answer again from somebody on the outside looking in is go, yeah, you there should be stiffer, penalties. There should be, uh, there, you should have more accountability for your actions.
But then the other part of me,I have, have a little life experience under my belt I know this is a much more nuanced and, um, engaged conversation. It can't be, that can't be that simple.I'm compassionate about people and have, you know, sympathy for circumstances and everybody's circumstances are a little different
You [00:12:00] have to weigh in public safety and victims' rights into this conversation. And it's, again, it's really easy to just go, yeah, it should be this. And avoid all the nuanced conversations that should happen in that space.
[00:12:14] Root Causes & Crime Rates: Auto Theft, Bank Robberies, & More
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[00:12:14] Cleave Simpson: I wanted to bring up with you all and think about two very nuanced, again, nuanced conversations and instances Colorado was the number one state for automobile theft three years ago. The legislature passed changed statutory requirements about auto theft.It went from your sentence was your sentence or the charge was associated to the value of the vehicle, and we changed that to say, that inexpensive rundown vehicle is just as important to the single mom living day to day as the Mercedes is to the lawyer, and so they should all be treated equally. So I, and you can't say this, um, without digging deeper, but auto thefts are on decline in Colorado after we did that, did holding people more accountable have an impact? I don't know if when somebody's stealing a car, if they go, if I steal this car, is it, you know, is it equate to a, a level four misdemeanor or is it a felony? I like, I don't believe they probably do that.
[00:13:28] Herbert Alexander: Why do you think the spike was?
[00:13:29] Cleave Simpson: The makes and models and the ease of stealing them. Got to be pretty public, I think. I think you could go on YouTube and see this is how to steal a, I don't know what it was, a Kia or one of those vehicles.
[00:13:42] Herbert Alexander: Okay so
[00:13:43] Cleave Simpson: I don't know if that's what drove it or not.
[00:13:44] Herbert Alexander: Oh, okay.
[00:13:45] Cleave Simpson: That and uniquely, up until 2021, Colorado was the leading nation in bank robberies as well.
Colorado went down a path of not prosecuting bank [00:14:00] robbers as a state crime, if you robbed a bank that was FDIC insured federally deposit insured now you could be prosecuted at under a federal crime. And collectively, I understand 12 or 13 jurisdictions around here came together and said,if the state's not gonna actively pursue prosecution, we'll we'll do this at a federal level And they started doing that two years ago.
And bank robberies declined significantly.
So it's not a, it's not a, it's not a definitive, it's, yeah, I got not Oh, absolutely.
If we'll just federally prosecute everybody for everything, then we'll have, we'll solve the crime problem.
I mean, I think it's so critical to, like you're saying, like, look at what are the, you know, what are the root causes of this decline? These rates declining and also what are the root causes of the increase that was happening too.
I was gonna say that's just as important.
[00:14:55] Ryan Conarro: Yeah. Like what are the circumstances? And I don't think there's one, I think it's a complex metric, but you know, COVID is certainly mixed in there.
What's going on for people? Well, a lack of resources and it feels to me, I mean, you know, I, we sit in a very different end of the spectrum or part of the spectrum of these kinds of conversations than I think you wind up sitting, and I think we're finding a lot of common ground here, but for me it's just like I, when you just do the math, the amount of state resources that could go towards preventive resource oriented measures to help people who don't-- who are lacking or who have mental health issues or whatever. It seems like there's, those almost never match the cost of incarceration. And there's something about, I don't know, to me it seems like American culture, like this idea of this sort of "bootstrap; I did it myself; we're not supposed to be getting handouts" kind of perspective, which I was raised [00:16:00] with, that Makes our political machine really reticent to say, let's invest, you know, on that end.
Do you feel that?
[00:16:14] Cleave Simpson: I, again, because I don't work in the criminal justice space so much, but I do spend a little more time in the healthcare space in Medicaid and have run bills before to spend state dollars upfront to avoid more expense later. And largely, if you can keep Medicaid folks out of the emergency room, if you could get 'em the help before something becomes critical,
we routinely talk about evidence-based policies so that one, you know, I'm equating it to The circumstances you just outlined, they go like, there's room for that. And look, I'm, I'm an engineer. So that kind of stuff, um, that evidence-based and the economic analysis is something I, uh, routinely engaged in and, and think about.
I I could just have never had that conversation in the criminal justice space.
[00:17:11] Ryan Conarro: I hear you.
[00:17:13] The Aguilera-Mederos Case: CO Governor Reduces a 110-Year Sentence
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[00:17:13] Herbert Alexander: So the trucker that ended up killing six people on the highway, do you remember that story
He ended up getting sentenced like 110 years. Do you remember that?
[00:17:22] Cleave Simpson: then the governor stepped in and did something.
[00:17:24] Herbert Alexander: can I get your perspective on how you felt about that?
[00:17:27] Cleave Simpson: The only information I have is what was in the press or what was reported. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know, I don't know all the backside of the issue. Certainly when, when you see that, and look, I have some experience driving trucks and understand like, how culpable was this individual or, and, or the company like that he's driving the truck for, Was it regularly inspected and was it up to speed, and did it have problems, had he reported problems and he wasn't getting them fixed? It's difficult. My first gut instinct [00:18:00] reaction was. He should be held accountable 130 years. I'm not sure why we would sentence somebody that's 30 years old to 130 years in prison again, if he was a hundred percent at fault. How do you deal with those victims in that space? How do you talk to those families and go, he'll serve five years and then, then he is out? And, but again, without knowing all the other details in the background, it's all I can express is my initial frustration.
One that it happened. All the thoughts and emotions that must be going through those families' minds, and honestly, to some degree his and his family as well. I'm sure he, I, I don't know him. Surely he was horrified by what happened,
[00:18:51] Herbert Alexander: How did you feel about the 110 going down
I don't know what they ended up doing. Um, I'm sure that I was, I would say my instinct was in disagreement with that, with that, making that kind of determination. And, and again, recognizing I don't know the details. again, how do you think about those families and the horrific deaths and destruction and heartbreak that they all felt and go, what do you do with that? Like, can you weigh that against this individual sentence? My, my instinct is it seemed too, um, too much of a reliefI just tend to side with the victims and go, , there's nothing you can do to bring their families back. I get that, but how do you account for the change in their life? Ultimately, is somebody serving, sitting in a jail? Does that make you feel better? I don't know.
I am a person who feels there should be 100% accountability.
I was upset that he got his sentence overturned the way he did
because it was a mandatory sentence for him to get that sentence, and there was [00:20:00] no way the judge could have came under that did anything. That's why he got that sentence. like nothing was by the books, because if it was by the books, then it would've opened the door for other people to get to get help and relief from this situation. But they backdoored the situation and had the governor do that, which was still kind of weird to me because you have to wait like 10 years before you can get clemency. So it was just, and as far as like, I don't want nobody in prison that doesn't need to be in a prison for 130 years.
if there's reasoning for you to be in prison for something really foul that you've done, then yeah,
I understand it's such a slippery slope. Like, 'cause you have to worry about the victims. You have to worry about how other people felt, you know?
[00:20:45] Simpson's Experience with Criminal Justice Policy
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[00:20:45] Herbert Alexander: Um, could you share, uh, some of your, um, some of what your experience has been in the criminal justice space as a, as a senator.
[00:20:53] Cleave Simpson: Yeah. Uh, and without divulging a bunch of details that I did with you earlier,
One individual in particular who was part of the criminal justice system, who was arrested three years ago with, um, the individual is 35 years old, 36 years old, um, uh, possession and intent to distribute Fentanyl. He, I think he was arrested twice. Been serving time in, either Jefferson County or most recently here in Denver. Um. Was finished and again, 'cause I don't deal in this space, I don't know exactly what I'm doing, but, uh, the individual has served the necessary time and moved now to a, like a halfway house and, like, I had dinner with this individual this week to go pick him up at the Denver County Jail where this halfway house is on the premises of the Denver County Jail and pick him up and take him to dinner, [00:22:00] to go like, how do I help you? How do I help you get your life straightened out? And, uh, he says, well, I'm trying to get it first thing I gotta do is figure out how I get a job. I said, do you have felony conviction on your, on your record? He goes, yeah, I have two of them. So, like, all right. I know because of my role, and ironically because I'm here today, I, I run into people that kinda help you know, provide some services in this space. So, uh, it's not, again, it's not something I had experience with at all, but now all of a sudden I'm actually right in the middle of it and go, can I help change the life of an individual who made bad choices, who grew up in a good home? Some really bad choicesset him down this path of, uh, being in the wrong spot at the wrong time and making really bad life choices that has now served his time.
I'm personally engaged in this all of a sudden. Yes. And it's ironic I end up here. Mm-hmm. You know, talking to you all, all while this is unfolding in my life.
[00:23:06] Snapshot of this Colorado Legislative Session
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[00:23:06] Ryan Conarro: We're heading into the next session.do you know of anything on the horizon in terms of, in terms of the criminal legal system or other things that are on your, on your, uh, on your plate?
[00:23:15] Cleave Simpson: There's certainly one at the,forefront of discussion is, uh, competency. Um, and I mean, again, this is a nuanced conversation of how folks, how the system and people, individuals deal with the challenges around competency and the criminal justice system and court orders and consent decrees it says you can't hold people without that are incompetent you can't hold them in jail in perpetuity. You gotta get 'em help or let 'em out. And so there was some very, um, public events happening in Adams County, I think with an individual that was
determined incompetent to proceed and then [00:24:00] committed another crime. And like the DA feels like their hands are tied based on a law we passed two years ago around competency. So that, that will be a big heavy lift. And again, trying to figure out the nuanced approach to this to go, people need help, um, but also the community needs to be safe.
The state doesn't have a great track record of providing the services that people with mental health challenges truly need. We don't have enough physical space for those folks. If we had the space, we don't have enough of a workforce staff to provide the services and we don't do enough in the, you know, in the preventative space. So a significant challenge for the state, and we're under a consent decree not to do what we're doing now and when we do, there's a daily fine that capped at $12 million and the state pays the $12 million I think every year i've been at the general assembly, I think if it was easy to solve, there are plenty of advocates trying to figure this out, and if there was an easy path forward, we would've, we would've already done it.
[00:25:06] CDOC's Requested Budget Increase
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[00:25:06] Cleave Simpson: There's meanwhile, um, a state budget deficit and the Department of Corrections, uh, this fall has been asking for a budget increase to increase bed space. do you think that's a good thing or what's your position on that?
I want to be supportive of the Department of Corrections and meeting their mission and requirements and also recognize those that are incarcerated make sure they're getting the fair and human decent treatments and opportunities that they deserve.
Uh, it, it's a political answer to go, I don't know how to do all that. Mm-hmm. I want better outcomes for society, for victims and for those that are incarcerated. Mm-hmm. And that's. That's hard to do.
[00:25:54] Ryan Conarro: Would you be willing to share what's I asked about what's on the horizon and [00:26:00] what's on your plate in terms of criminal justice, but what else in terms of your district and in terms of your, um, your own session?
[00:26:07] Workforce and Housing in Rural Colorado
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[00:26:07] Cleave Simpson: Yeah, affordable housing, um, will be a a bill i'm on. and it's just about how Colorado passed Proposition 123, two years ago, three years ago, to make funding available for workforce housing and there are some complexities in particularly rural parts of the state where it's not serving the need, I think the voters intended. So just working with advocacies in rural counties and developers to go, how do we help build, again, more workforce housing in rural parts of the state,
[00:26:41] Climate Change and Water Issues
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[00:26:41] Cleave Simpson: I'll be working with industry about, um, the state's climate change goals and what it means to consumers ultimately. Like if, if we're gonna pursue this rigorously, the, the goals the governor has set forward, does it have a financial impact on consumers? And should we take that more into account as we march forward with, um, climate change goals and then I like there, there are water bills. I farm and ranch, so I'm always active in water space,
[00:27:15] Additional Prospective Bills
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[00:27:15] Cleave Simpson: I can do five bills and I have about 20 requests, so I gotta thumb through those. A couple other really important ones are childcare investment tax credits. That's already an existing program, just trying to extend it, and then also if you invest in, um, entities that provide great housing for unhoused. There's a tax credit there for you. Hmm. That's about to expire and we'll work on renewing that.
[00:27:39] "A Knot to Untie"
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[00:27:39] Cleave Simpson: Sounds like it doesn't sound dull. No, no please. Is there anything else you wanna, you wanna add? No, again, I just so appreciative and the opportunity to sit and talk again in a space I just don't work in very much. And it, again, it forces me to think a little more.
I'm always [00:28:00] challenged and look, I'm an engineer so I enjoy those challenges as trying to think through problems and what potential solutions look like. And then tying it all in this conversation with like the individual I knew in Springs that still know that like. You know, his brothers sitting in prison under a life sentence and the Korey Wise Innocence Project, or working with Senator Amabile or serving on the, the committee treatment of people with behavioral health issues in the criminal justice system.
I know there are way too many folks in that space that just need medical help, not incarceration. Not like how do you solve all these problems? Makes life really, really challenging.
[00:28:45] Ryan Conarro: It's a knot, isn't it? It is knot to untie.