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The Space Between – Heaven on Earth is a companion podcast to Awakening – Heaven on Earth.
Through intimate, heart-centered conversations, this series explores the lived experience of awakening — the questions, integrations, paradoxes, and sacred pauses where transformation truly occurs.
This is the space between knowing and becoming…
where Heaven meets Earth through honest dialogue.
Welcome to the space between heaven on earth. This is a companion podcast to awakening heaven on earth created as a space for reflection, conversation, and lived experience. Here, we enter the pause between knowing and becoming, between insight and embodiment, between heaven and earth. These conversations are not about answers or conclusions. They are about presence, about listening, about reasoning together, about meeting one another honestly in the unfolding journey of awakening.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm your host, Jeffrey Aylor. Again, welcome and thank you for entering The Space Between with us. Welcome to this episode of the space between. In our last episode, we explored what it means to rebuild with love, to begin creating systems and communities that reflect unity rather than separation. But systems don't transform themselves.
Jeffrey Aylor:They transform through people, through those that are willing to guide differently, to serve differently, and to lead differently. So this episode is called Leading with Love Unity and Leadership. And when we hear the word leadership, many of us pretty much immediately start thinking about titles like CEOs or managers, teachers, public figures. But leadership really is a much bigger thing than a role. Know, every day we influence the world around us.
Jeffrey Aylor:We influence as parents, as friends, as coworkers, as members within our community. So the question is not, am I a leader? The question is, what kind of influence am I bringing into the world? So I'm gonna start with this, question for each one of you, and today we're joined by my son Joel. Good to have you with us this week and Joe Dermody and Sherry Keyes.
Jeffrey Aylor:So when you hear the phrase leading with love, what's that conjure up in your mind? Who's somebody in your life who modeled that kind of leadership?
Joel Aylor:So for me, it's somebody who who, in their role doesn't take it, does it with a sense of servitude as opposed to being somebody who is over over you. Somebody who does something out of love or does their work from a place of love as opposed to a place of just control. Somebody who modeled that kind of leadership for me would be, honestly, would be you.
Joel Aylor:And happy Father's Day to you since it is you know, today, we're recording this. It's Father's Day. Were somebody who'd who showed me leadership when as as a as a young kid. You were in the military. You you did that not because you necessarily wanted to because it was a choice that you were like, yes.
Joel Aylor:I really love to be, you know, be in this. You did it because you did you had to take care of of mom and us, know, sister and I. So you you did that from a place of love and servitude to us, and that's something I've always, you know, thought about as, you know, as an adult now, have my own kids.
Joe Dermody:I feel exactly the same way. My father, stepfather, who raised me, he also is somebody that he didn't have to bring me in as his own, and he chose to, and he brought me in showing me so much love. And one of his one of my favorite sayings that he used to tell me was, son, I can't tell you what to do with your life, but I can show you what not to that that you don't wanna do. And we he we did a lot of manual labor growing up around the house. We did a lot of he was very hands on with a lot of DYI projects, And he was a sales engineer, but he did a lot of manual stuff around the house.
Joe Dermody:We did a lot of, oh, patio projects. We did a lot of yard work, and I have learned from him that I don't wanna be a somebody that does concrete work. I don't wanna be somebody that wants to move a wheelbarrow. I don't wanna be somebody that wants to garden for a living because I've done a lot of that growing up, and I'm very, very thankful and grateful for the lessons he's taught me. And and, honestly, I followed in his footsteps and went and got an engineering degree because of the way he taught, the way he helped me think logically.
Joe Dermody:And it's it's a lot of that just a wonderful experience growing up with somebody that led with love and, you know, let me learn beside him. And it was a fantastic, fantastic experience.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Your your story there makes me think of the Brad Paisley song talking about a stepdad. Basically, the father, he didn't have to be. So I I I feel that because, you know, I have a stepson as well. And with you know, for for those people in this situation, it is a choice.
Joel Aylor:It it's not something, you know, where you have a kid naturally with that other person. They already have the child, and that's part of the package. So, yeah, that's that's a special person. It takes it's not easy sometimes, but, you know, the fact that he had a positive influence on you is
Joe Dermody:awesome. Absolutely. All
Sherri Keys:the conversations, I think we all start with some influence from our parents, good, bad or indifferent. I had wonderful parents and my mom and dad just watching them raise us. And I'm going to speak specifically for my mom, because watching her be a matriarch for the family, she taught me to understand the difference between love and loving unconditionally. And there's truly a difference in that. And then understanding how do you give people grace in that process.
Sherri Keys:And I think that's important because people hold so much inside them and those strong feelings of, you know, of whatever that is, that a strong feeling that you have inside those things that really don't matter. She's always taught us to look beyond that. She always would say, you do unto others as you want others to do unto you. And that has been kind of the foundation that I think has moved me into not only the person I am, the woman I am, but the mother that I am. And I hope that I will continue to be for my daughters.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well for me it's interesting because I find that it's interesting so far that all of you have really chosen family as your examples. And I think most people if they think of leaders, do they really think of their family as much as they would think of work or, you know, leaders in some organization or government leaders or people that are outside of their family. And for me, there's not one that I can think of specifically, because I think they've been influenced by so many different people in different ways and in positive ways that, you know, they they truly if they cared enough to pull me aside and give me guidance and give me good instruction. I can think of probably four or five different specific experiences I had with different people in positions of leadership at different levels. That totally changed my trajectory, and how I was viewing not only myself, but my interactions with people, and how I was affecting people.
Jeffrey Aylor:And they were all profound. They were all profound. And the only reason they did it is because they cared. They wouldn't have taken the time or the energy to do that with me if they didn't care. And that really has kind of jumped out at me.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, because to me, love is not an emotion. Love is action. It's a verb. It's it's something that we do or something we don't do that demonstrates love and leadership, And I find it interesting because in our workplace, I think we use that word a lot. And it's probably quite unusual for many people if they were to come into our little work area and hear us talking to each other about, hey, love you at the end of a meeting, or, you know, how many people at work tell each other that they love each other or that they, you know, and honestly, I mean it.
Jeffrey Aylor:We mean it. We do care. And I've had that with people in the military that I've worked with. There are people that I I truly love them, and they loved me because of what they did for me or did not do for me that helped shape me. And in the business world, even there, I have come across less less people that use love as a foundation for their leadership.
Jeffrey Aylor:And certainly in government, I think it's hard to find people who that's their primary focus is they do what they do out of love. There's so much influence in leadership for power and money and and other things that motivate people to get themselves into different positions. But again, I hope that in this conversation, we can kind of change the perception of what we mean when we say leadership, and that when we talk about love, we're talking about action, how we act, how we what we do, and what we don't do relative to people. So with that, you know, I think as we go into this first section of questions, we're going to talk about how everyone is a leader. Everyone's a leader.
Jeffrey Aylor:Leaders are not necessarily defined by a position, so we often underestimate how much influence we as individuals have. Know, sometimes the absolute greatest leaders are not the ones with the loudest voices, right? They're the ones that have the most consistent presence in an environment. And it's that informal leader that people look to in many cases to see, well, what are they doing? How are they responding?
Jeffrey Aylor:Know, and they and they use them as mirrors in some cases as well. So with this first question, when did you first realize that your actions, for example, was influencing other people?
Joel Aylor:For me, I feel like I keep bringing back the same type of experiences, but, obviously, I learned a lot during these moments. The first time I realized my influence on others would have been after Katie died. I mean, before before she died, I was a very quiet, very shy kind of kid. Just kept to myself, had a small core group of friends. But then after she passed away, the spotlight was put on on on me and on our family, and people knew who I was, and I had no clue who they were just because of the the whole experience and things that went on.
Joel Aylor:So for for, you know, for people people are looking to me in those moments to help them through it. I remember people just, you know, just wanting to be together in those times and wanting me to be there and be present and be a part of it. So that was one one experience initially where I realized my just my presence was an influence to other people. And if I could be strong through this, they could be strong through it too. Another one is for me was when I as I was going through my pharmacy training.
Joel Aylor:And when I was actually in pharmacy school, for those who don't understand pharmacy, where you basically have essentially three positions inside of a retail pharmacy, and it's essentially gonna be a technician, an intern. Intern is somebody who's actively studying to become a pharmacist, then you have a pharmacist. And there's a dynamic there as far as what you can and can't do. So once I went into pharmacy school and became an intern, I would now had more responsibility. And so what I was doing was, you know, learning learning the job, but also be essentially training the the newer people and things like that.
Joel Aylor:So starting to see my influence in a in a leadership role was definitely eye opening for me.
Joe Dermody:I probably started to realize it back in high school. I had a core group of friends, and I started to realize that I had a lot of influence on what we did when we got together and that I could and that I could make the I don't wanna use the word make. I had a lot just a lot of influence on on what we did. I could normally get my way when we were trying to decide what we wanted to do, where we wanted to go. I learned pretty quick that I could I I understood the dynamics and how to talk with people and that that helped to choose helped me choose where we wanted to go and have them come along with us.
Joe Dermody:So
Sherri Keys:For for me, you realize that when people start valuing your voice, and it doesn't always have to be in a major type of leadership, but what I've come to realize in my mature stage in life is that it can be just the small things. Something as small as being on a team call and as people go around and they're, how are you doing? How are doing? And kind of leveraging it to a level where I'm doing great. Thank you so much.
Sherri Keys:And seeing how that set a foundation for how everyone else began to react and communicate in that same way. So something as small as that and seeing how you can influence a person's perspective, state of mind for that moment, to me, is a great example of a leadership. So that positive energy now is transferred to the team, and now that becomes something that everyone say. Something as simple as happy Monday. And I do that a lot on my meetings.
Sherri Keys:And now it it brings a smile in some meetings because they're actually expecting that and sometimes they even beat into the punch line. But I I feel like that's, you know, how you influence people in such a positive way, even if it's something small as starting their day.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think with me, it's when you start seeing people mimic, right? They start mimicking things you say, things you do, and when they gravitate to you for advice, or in some cases they'll just openly say, hey, you're having a lot of influence, you know, I I would like I've had people come sometimes and say, there's something about you, and I like it. So how how can I have that and feel that? And I'm I'm and it's just I kinda do a double take when people say stuff like that to me, but at at that point, you know you're them, that they're watching you for a reason because they think that there's something about you that that they want to also have or enjoy or experience because they see it in you, they see it through you, And, you know, that's that's usually a first indicator. You know, when someone comes to you and asks for advice or they come and ask for guidance or they come and ask for You to tell them or share with them.
Jeffrey Aylor:Some reason why you do. You're doing what you're doing. And. You always have to be so careful at that point. To to I think Joe, you kind of touched on this concept of realize that you have you're having that influence, but don't manipulate.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? You have to learn to not manipulate.
Joe Dermody:Use your powers for good.
Jeffrey Aylor:Use it for good because there's so many people once they realize that they're having that kind of influence will use it for bad, right? They'll use it to to get things inappropriately necessarily from other people because the it's amazing how people they want leaders. People want to follow leaders, and a lot of leaders I don't think understand that. They're actually looking to leaders for guidance and vision and direction, and and the leaders are like, well, no. I don't wanna well, yes.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. That's what they want from you, and they want you to give that.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Me think of Spider Man with great power comes great responsibility. Exactly.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. But the problem is a lot of these people that are our leaders, I mean, some of them a lot of them get into leadership roles because of that power they want to lead for whatever reason. Right? Some of them to manipulate. Some of them because they truly care and they want to lead.
Joe Dermody:The problem are the people and and then they're not a problem, but some of them, I guess, are. The ones that are the leading without knowledge that they're leading. Some of the, like, the big influencers out there. Right? The ones that are online, and they are leading without really knowing they're leading.
Joe Dermody:The ones eating Tide Pods back in the day. Right? They're they're doing this as a joke a lot of the times, and all of these kids who are watching them thinking that, oh, that's a great idea. Well, no, it's not a great idea. But they're seeing all these people that they are idolizing online leading them down this path.
Joe Dermody:And and that's where the problem comes in when they don't realize that they are leading without leading. Right? I think it's very important to use your powers for good. If you have these you're doing this in the public eye, you are leading, and it's be aware that you're leading.
Jeffrey Aylor:So what makes someone a leader without a formal title?
Joel Aylor:It's somebody who has influence, somebody who has an effect on somebody's actions or how they think about their their life. So I mean, like you said, it means we all are leaders in different ways with other with different people. It's not just a title. It's not just a, you know, person who's in charge of something like that we have in our mind, like a business or a government title or anything like that. A parent is a is a leader.
Joel Aylor:A coach is a leader, and I I I experienced that, and you bring that up when you that made me think of when you mentioned somebody who imitates you or somebody who repeats something that you say. And I always wonder that sometimes with my with my soccer team that I that I coach and all the things I say over and over and over, and it feels like they just never never get it. And all of a sudden, they'll repeat it. Or they'll say, like coach Joel said, do this. Like, they do remember.
Joel Aylor:They are listening. They may not always show it, but, I mean, they actually are I am influencing them in some way. So, yeah, influence is the biggest thing. So you can be a good leader and a bad leader based on, you know, what you're putting out there, but you're influencing people. So, like, to Joe's point, you know, those people who are, you know, eating the Tide pods, they're influencing people.
Joel Aylor:It's not a good thing, but they're leading people in in a way. And they don't have a title other than just Internet personality or Internet influencer. So, yeah, it's just it's influence is the is the kind of the crux of it.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. And I agree. It's influence inspires, guides others towards a shared goal. Right?
Sherri Keys:I I think it's being a good listener. I think all of those things
Joel Aylor:I
Sherri Keys:agree with, but being being able to humble yourself to a point once you're aware that you have power and have influence to be able to listen. Because it's through that listening that that power or influence that you have is guided in the right way. Because I think that we all are on a constant journey of learning. And I think that even the best leaders still need to learn and gain knowledge and understand how to control that influence, and that comes with understanding and listening and caring.
Jeffrey Aylor:For me, it's interesting because I I I think I'm a leader, and in most cases, I can usually work myself into positions where I also have the title except in business. And it's the most interesting thing to me that leaders in business struggle with putting me in a particular position, And I think that's because of I intimidate them. Personally, I think I intimidate them, and it's interesting because leadership in business is different than say leadership in government or leadership in religion or leadership, but I've been able to gravitate into leadership roles in every other part of my life, and I do have leadership roles in business. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I am a an executive level person in business at this point, but it's there.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I think Joe and Sherry, who have worked with me now for some time, will recognize that that happens, that they're they're just and and I think that brings up another issue with leadership is that in some cases, people who are in formal positions of leadership are not necessarily the true leaders of an organization, and when we teach change management, that's one of the big things we teach people is you really need to understand who has what circle of influence, and the most important leaders you need to connect with are not necessarily people that are in positions with a title. They're informal leaders in the organization that will have more influence to help you get a change implemented than than the people in those roles. And I find again, I find myself in business primarily to be influential, but it's not necessarily my title that drives that. So I and I think that comes from again, demonstrating certain characteristics, demonstrating experience, demonstrating results, getting results that people can see, and and working in a way that is collaborative, not competitive. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:When you work in a collaborative manner, people gravitate toward that. When when things are hyper competitive, you start to create conflict and division and separation as a result of that. So I think those are two critical points. So let's jump into section two here. So let's start looking at the difference between old leadership.
Jeffrey Aylor:What we'll call old leadership versus maybe what we'll now call unity based leadership, where you know, a lot of traditional leadership has been built around hierarchy. Again, this is where, you know, a hierarchy defines roles and positions and titles. And if you're not at this level in the hierarchy with that title in some people's mind, you know, you're not a leader. Well, in reality, I don't know if that's true. So direction in a hierarchy flows downward.
Jeffrey Aylor:Where decisions are coming from the top, they're coming top down and success is measured by results alone. But unity is asking us to expand that. I think that definition of influence and and leadership and direction and guidance coming from more than just down top down. So what leadership patterns from the past do you think humanity is beginning to question and outgrow?
Joe Dermody:I think I think if we're talking about business, I think that we're I know at our business in particular, we're trying to get out of a lot of siloized thinking and coming into more of a more of a upstream and downstream collaborative thinking. Bring bring more people into the conversation. Don't just keep it inside of one silo. Break down those walls, and and let's actually talk about the entire the entire process instead of just one. Right?
Joe Dermody:And I think that that is that's really bring more leaders into the conversation instead of it being directed just by one. And I think that brings the unity thinking into it directly. So it's a direct correlation, I think, instead of an indirect correlation. So I think that's a beautiful thing that we're seeing in our own community there at work. And I think it's I'd love to see it in in other organizations as well, not just the the work organization, but bring it into communities, bring it into, you know, families.
Joe Dermody:Let's let's start talking with others, and don't just
Jeffrey Aylor:Government.
Joe Dermody:Keep it Government and as well. Yeah.
Sherri Keys:Think depending on the industry, I think so, obviously, the this, you know, going to the military has this is there's a different reason why that leadership structure, the hierarchy structure is there to drive discipline. And and and obviously, Jeffrey can speak more to this than anyone on this call to, you know, kind of understand what is needed in very serious and dangerous situations. So that type of leadership structure, I think, has its place. I think in the business world, I think that we're evolving from, at least I hope so, from that top always top down structure to now allowing more diverse conversations in order to get away from the siloed structures across most organizations. So allowing people to provide at least in continuous improvement.
Sherri Keys:I mean, you know, one of the main things and when we talk in lean or one of the elements of lean from a waste perspective is not including the voice and the talents for people as close to driving the value. You want that both in understanding problems and understanding how to remediate or define solutions. And so that theory, I feel like hopefully is is something that organizations are, in the modern world are embracing. Because there's so much value. I've seen it.
Sherri Keys:I've lived through it, where you include everyone as part of the conversation. That's my perspective.
Joe Dermody:But let me say something else though too. I think that there is still a need for some leaders because and I know I know that's not what you're saying there, Sherry. I know you're not saying, you know, that that leadership isn't needed, but I think that there's still a need for a a structure of leadership even if we are going to make it inclusive to more groups. Because I think what I'm seeing as well is that in some instances, we are not seeing a strong enough leadership role. And I think that's just as big of a problem as some of the siloed thinking that we've had in the past because you still need somebody to take some accountability and some ownership in some situations too.
Joe Dermody:We just need them to be inclusive, and I think that there's definitely a need for leadership to happen. Somebody does need to step up, take ownership and accountability. We just want them to be cooperative in their thinking with other groups, departments, communities, you know, as they do it?
Sherri Keys:Yeah. So, you know, for sure, not not at all saying that leaders it takes a leader in order to be able to to drive that type of view and commitment and culture within an organization. So to your point, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that it takes leadership to understand the value of bringing a diverse conversation into from a business perspective, into environment so that everyone, especially people that's close to whatever that value, if we're talking business that they're driving to the end customer, has a seat at the table and is helping to formulate or form those ideas, those, you know, those solutions. So that takes leadership to do that, and that leadership is also forming the the next set of leaders to also understand the value of, you know, being inclusive in conversations and and and bringing people in. So it all starts with good leaderships.
Sherri Keys:The good leaderships have the the vision to see how to make that work within organizations and and how important it is. So that's so that's what I'm trying to say. And I think that you're agreeing with me and my thoughts.
Joe Dermody:So Absolutely. Yeah.
Joel Aylor:So what you're gonna say isn't tied into this? Because I'm well, I'm gonna take in a completely different direction otherwise.
Jeffrey Aylor:No. Go ahead. It'll be fun.
Joel Aylor:It'll be fun?
Joe Dermody:That's some
Joel Aylor:so some leadership patterns that humanity is starting to outgrow. I I think of more of the religious spiritual aspect of things, where growing up was taught that basically, you know, you go to church and you learn from the preacher. The preacher has the the insight and the information. He's the one who understands it. He's the one who's going to teach you and tell you what what it actually says.
Joel Aylor:And I think that we're as a as humanity is starting to awaken and starting to question things and and realize that some certain things that are said or or put out there that are just not really matching up with with the how the world works, They're starting to question that. They're starting to outgrow that. They're starting to find their their answers within themselves. They're becoming leaders to themselves and realizing that it's okay to ask these questions. It's okay to say, do they really know what they're talking about?
Joel Aylor:And it's okay to to go down that rabbit hole and and learn as much as possible about it or, you know, see what see what works, what doesn't work. I think we're starting to outgrow this mindset that we have to go and meet at the exact same time each week with like minded people to be given a a specific, you know, sermon that's usually pre prepared and, you know, you know, planned out for weeks or months in advance, just giving you the information. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but I think we're outgrowing that. And I think a lot of the, you know, people in those positions are struggling. Those leaders are struggling to, you know, how do I continue to, you know, maintain this business?
Joel Aylor:Because let's be honest, it's a business. But I think that's one area where I'm seeing you know? And and it's you're seeing that in the news. I think people they're they're doing all these polls talking about where people are you know, what are they what religion are they, or do they go to church and things, and you're seeing all that go down. You're seeing all these people say a nondescript, you know, religion.
Joel Aylor:I'm I'm not necessarily religious, but spiritual, things like that. Those numbers are going way up, and that's a a huge, you know, evolution, I think.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I don't think what you're talking about is really different at all than what they've talked about because spiritualize everything. Everything is spiritual. I spiritualize leadership in business. I spare you know, I spiritualize it in government, and have had the opportunity to be a leader in government and business and and in religion. Mhmm.
Jeffrey Aylor:So I don't think there's any difference, to be very honest, in how you approach it. It's it's I think the biggest issue we bump up against is that, you know, humanity is is learning that they they they truly do have the answers within themselves. They don't have to be told. They they have it within themselves. Now sometimes they don't understand that.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I think where a great leader comes in is goes back to what we talked about over the last week or two about facilitating. A a great leader is a facilitator. There's someone with enough experience that they're able to see and help people develop themselves and bring the knowledge and understanding that they need within themselves out so that they gain confidence in themselves and their decision making and their guidance that they're receiving for themselves within themselves, right? We are spirit first. All of us are spirit first.
Jeffrey Aylor:We're in my opinion, we're all God experiencing life from different perspectives. We all have value, and we all have different things that we bring to the collective to the whole. A great leader, though, has to understand that and be confident enough enough and not intimidated by and not afraid of allowing people to be and to express and to demonstrate what they are and who they are, and be open to the fact that their way is just a way. It's not the way. I think for me in in in my development as a leader, I've had to learn that I can have a vision, which is beautiful, and and I think people seek a vision from leaders, but I don't necessarily have to tell people exactly how or what to do to create the vision.
Jeffrey Aylor:Give them the liberty and the freedom to work within boundaries and move in the common direction toward that vision, which allows them then to be what they are creators. Be a creator. You know, I think leaders give framework. They give structure. They give organization.
Jeffrey Aylor:They facilitate. They they protect people so that they can individually contribute without being attacked by someone else who thinks that what they're doing is wrong or different. And that's that's why I really think as we've gone through this first season, and we talked about this last week, that one of the key things coming out of this season for me is the critical role of a facilitator, and what I think we may start focusing on as a as a team of people here and in helping people develop is teaching people how to
Joel Aylor:be facilitators. Or to be leaders themselves.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, that's what I mean though, but a leader is a facilitator.
Sherri Keys:Right.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's my point. That's not what people are taught about what it is to be a leader. A facilitator is and so we'll have to get into this as a topic in a future episode, because I mean, my facilitation training was intense, intense. It was the first thing I went through as part of my organizational development training, But I will tell you, it's probably the most important thing and skill I've learned that has allowed me to significantly increase my influence and effectiveness as a person. Those skills.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and and I think it's important to share it with people. And and because my goal as a leader is to develop the people that are with me to be leaders and to be confident and be and to be self learning and self directing, and I don't want to have to manage you all the time.
Joel Aylor:Well, the best leaders don't make more followers. The best leaders make more leaders.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. Exactly.
Joel Aylor:And that's the basically, to to Joe's point talking about Internet influencers, that the only thing they're looking for is more followers. Right? They're always saying click that like. You know, I need more followers, all that crap. That's not the point.
Joel Aylor:That's I mean, they're having influence, but they're not leading. And I think that's what you're talking about. Like, we're trying to create more leaders. You're trying to create that person to build them up so they can be just like that. Exactly.
Jeffrey Aylor:Exactly. And and I don't honestly care how many followers we have. Right. It's not the thing. If we're influencing a handful of people who can go out and influence a handful of people, then the network of growth will happen.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? So the purpose of this podcast is not how many how many people have subscribed, how many people if if you're listening, and this is giving you some way of learning and growing and helping the collective, then this is a big, big win to me. So alright. So how what happens when leaders focus on controlling people rather than empowering people? Well, I mean,
Joel Aylor:that's almost that's fear based leadership, and fear based leadership usually is just seeking compliance. And I think that if we can, you know, change that and make it more love based, then you then you facilitate growth. And that's something that I had in pharmacy a lot. So I worked for a big chain when I came out of school, and it was all about metrics. It was all about numbers.
Joel Aylor:How many prescriptions were you filling? How fast were you filling it? How what was your error rate? And people just basically were doing it out of fear of of basically not hitting those numbers. And, ultimately, we're there to take care of a patient.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. Lots of patients. But it's like, if they're so so concerned about hitting a certain metric, they're not doing their job. They're doing it out of fear. They're not doing it because they're wanting to do something for that patient.
Joel Aylor:They don't they won't take that extra step to go out into the aisle and talk to the patient and take time because that kills their numbers on the other side. So you can't have both. So, basically, where I'm at now, we don't we don't hover over them. We don't micromanage them with those numbers. Because I've learned that if you just take care of the employee and and and the the company that I work for now does a great job of of taking care of employees and and giving them what they need, they naturally take care of the patient without having to ask them to.
Joel Aylor:The service that they provide is much better because they aren't scared to death that they're gonna get in trouble. And so that, you know, if you come from that mindset of of love and, you know, make sure you take care of the patient as best as you can, the the service that we provide is is is much better.
Joe Dermody:My my note on this one was their reign is much shorter and it is secure. You know? And it brought to me the the thought of the the child's game, follow the leader, right, where, you know, you have a whole bunch of kids and they're playing follow the leader, and that is when one kid gets up and they they start doing something and everybody else is just supposed to follow them and do what they're doing. Right? And if they're doing something that's not fun, it's just trying to make them do stuff that's silly or controlling, make them do something that's uncomfortable or something like that.
Joe Dermody:Well, that person's replaced pretty quick and you bring somebody else in that's more fun and productive and having a good time based on love, not something that's uncomfortable. So you get rid of that person and bring somebody else in that's doing something more fun, productive. So, yeah, that's what I put down.
Sherri Keys:Everything I think about starts with the foundation of love. I think that's that's what a good leader should should kind of start thinking through. And I mean, if you're not starting from that perspective of care and want to drive value and understanding of the bigger picture, the bigger goal, understanding that God's given us all free will, You know? And I've been very blessed in my engagement with the people that influenced me as leaders. They've always allowed me to and and Jess spoke to that just, you know, use give me the autonomy to to to really go out and do do the thing, do the take on the challenge and and learn and understand.
Sherri Keys:And I I think when you have leaders that just wanna do control, they're only they're not growing the culture. They're not growing other good leaders. And they're gonna be stuck in what Jeff always says, the hairball. So that's my thought.
Jeffrey Aylor:So I'm going to go back to what you were saying, Joel, about love and fear. A leader who leads with control is someone who is leading out of a foundation or base of fear. They don't have strong confidence in themselves. Their lack of self confidence puts them in a position where they're afraid of other people and their talent and their abilities. You know, some of the best leaders recognize that the people working for them are actually much more smart.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're much smarter. They're much more capable and competent than even they are. But they recognize that, and they learn how to harness that and direct it. One of one of the leaders I had in the military told me one time, he said, you know, I got mad at him actually because he he would go golfing during the day at work, and I'd be working hard trying to get things, you know, get things done. And and and one day I confronted him.
Jeffrey Aylor:I said, hey, you know, it really makes me angry that you're out golfing during the day. What the heck do you what what is this? He says, you know what? He said, you should be glad that I'm out golfing and not in your business every day. He says, because you know why?
Jeffrey Aylor:I trust you. I I have he said, I built my team, and it's a team of thoroughbreds, And my job is to make sure that all the thoroughbreds are running in the same direction. And as long as you all are running in that direction, I don't don't bother you. But if you need something, you know, you can come to me. You know, you can.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and I took that as, okay. Well, now that I look at it from that perspective, yeah, I'm really glad you're not involved in what I do day to day and that you give me the freedom and the ability to to do what I need to do. And if I do need something, can go and you'll get it. Help me make sure. So it really changed my perspective of leadership a lot.
Jeffrey Aylor:Now what I find is that the worst leaders I work with are really busy. Which means they're micromanaging, which means that they're in everybody's business and they need to get out of it. The leaders that I find to be the most effective are the ones that are not that busy. They're available. The leader that's available to their people Is going to be the most effective leader.
Jeffrey Aylor:If you need me, all you have to do is reach out and I'm available. And if I am so busy that I can't, I don't have time for you. I'm not going to lead you. Now that dynamic doesn't it? That's very different than what most people think of as a greater successful leader, but I'm telling you, the less I do, the more effective I am.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I've said that with my work team recently over the last year and a half or so, the less I do, the more effective I am as a leader and the more effective the organization will be because I'm allowing it and facilitating it to do what it needs to do, and I'm available to help it and guide it and direct it. So that is a very counterintuitive position.
Joel Aylor:I can vouch for you know, relate to all that because then my new role, that I've been in the last couple of years, at first, I felt like I had impostor syndrome. And that's what I think some of these leaders have is they don't they they they think they're not qualified for the role. They feel like they're not qualified. They don't know what they're doing, and they're trying to do too much. Once I've gotten over that that feeling of impostor and actually came you know, developed into that role and started making some changes, I I wouldn't get in people's business.
Joel Aylor:I would teach them the workflow. I would teach them what they needed to know, and I would back away from it. And I said, I'm always available. And that's the one thing that I've always made myself is available. So if I make changes in a in a in a pharmacy system, I need to be available to answer the questions.
Joel Aylor:Well, how does this work now? What do I need to do in this situation? And the one thing they always tell me is that, you know, you are always the quickest to respond. Out of our entire admin team, when we ask questions to you guys, you're the first one that always responds. We know you'll answer the question.
Joel Aylor:We know you're available and watching and waiting, and I always try to be that. I always try to be present for them to let them know I'm here to help. I don't get in their business every day because they wouldn't want that, but they know I'm here if they need help.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, if you if you you know, when you take the modern productivity mindset many people have, the idea that you have to always be doing,
Joel Aylor:that's a hard part for me.
Jeffrey Aylor:Just being available. Right.
Joel Aylor:Well, to go from being in a pharmacy where I'm constantly cranking out prescriptions and doing something to to a more of a desk job, more big picture business workflow type of mindset, it was very hard for me and to to adjust into those two different roles. So, yeah, it was hard for me not to
Jeffrey Aylor:be doing something always. This this last question in this section that I think is important, and I don't want to skip it. So I want to make sure we add it. And that is how do we balance strength with compassion and leadership? Can you be strong?
Jeffrey Aylor:Be a strong presence and a strong energy and a strong influence, yet still be compassionate?
Joel Aylor:You absolutely have to. You have to find that balance. Otherwise, you have a power struggle. You have you know, there's gonna be titles. There's people who are in charge of certain things, they have response certain responsibilities, but it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to create attention within a team.
Joel Aylor:And that's one thing that I can come back to pharmacy because that's my experience. I'm not trained to do anything else. You know, in that tight space where we're working together, I I was the leader, but I also basically never treat treated myself as being more important than my technicians. They were my team. If I without them, we would have failed quickly.
Joel Aylor:And so I always made made them realize how much I appreciated them, showed them you know, gave them whatever they needed, kept them more out high, kept the energy high, because that was one thing that can deflate a pharmacy and really make it go downhill was basically that if that energy's low, it's gonna affect our our product, our our service. So I'm always always paying attention, always listening to my to my technicians and helping them, you know, and empowering them to to be the best that they can be. So I always had them practicing at the top of their license, teaching them whatever they needed to be, you know, taught and and worked as a cohesive team. Like I said, I was full and actual charge of the pharmacy, but so were they. I allowed them to be in charge as much as they were allowed to be, and that always empowers them to to do their best.
Joe Dermody:And I think I said it's absolutely possible and imperative to do so. You have to. You have to be able to do that. And you do it by putting a strong team together that both allows you to keep them strong, right, but also keeps you you grounded. You have to have people around you that will let you know when you're not being your best.
Joe Dermody:Right? Empower them to speak and be part of that team to do their best, but also tell you when you're not doing your best as well?
Sherri Keys:So diddle the whole conversation on that. I don't think I had any additional thing. I think it's compassion is a very key element in order to be a strong leader. You've got to be compassionate. It's my perspective.
Sherri Keys:And that being compassionate allows you to understand how to balance that. Because if you weren't compassionate, you wouldn't be aware of when you're driving something in the wrong direction, the negative direction of something. So I think that you gain awareness through learning how to be compassionate or learning the understanding of how important compassion is in leadership. So
Jeffrey Aylor:well, for me, I think it's important to recognize that the people you're leading are whole people. They're not anybody who thinks that someone can come into their work environment and just shut off the rest of their life doesn't understand people. If you think that people come home from work and don't bring work home with them, you don't understand people. Have to recognize who people are, what they're where they are in their life, what their life is, what they're experiencing in their life at any given time, and realize that, you know, you can you can make decisions that take all of that into account, and you'll make better decisions, and you'll be a much better leader to that person when you recognize and understand them as a whole person. So I think that's a failing in especially in in business, that people think you can just turn on and turn off parts of who you are when you walk in or walk out the door, And that just not the case.
Jeffrey Aylor:It doesn't happen that way. You you've got to be understanding of where people are in their life and what they're experiencing as a whole person. So and I do think you can be strong, and still be compassionate. Right? So let's go on to the next section here, which talks about leading from a position of wholeness.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think most of us have experienced leaders that are insecure leaders that are, in some cases, they're they're in over their head because they don't have the knowledge that they need to be effective in the levels that they're at. We know that there are people that that function primarily from ego and not from spirit, that they don't function as a whole person. So how does self awareness change the way someone leaves? And what happens when a leader acts from insecurity, fear, or ego versus from security, personal, you know, security, and love and from a position of of spirit?
Joel Aylor:For me, I've learned over the last couple years to pay attention to, you know, how a situation is making me feel, whether that be you know, I make a change, and then I get a lot of resistance. When I first started in this role, I would you know, new person in a new role and leadership that they weren't used to. So it's a new new guy on the on the scene and coming in and making changes to their day to day, and they resist that, which is completely normal. But for for a while, I would take it personally. I would take I would be frustrated.
Joel Aylor:Like, why why won't they change? Why why aren't they understanding this? Why aren't they accepting this? And it would bother me. And I realized that that was just my ego.
Joel Aylor:It wasn't you know, the the what I was where I was coming from was a good place. It was with good intentions, and I knew it would help overall long term, but but I was letting my ego get in the way because I wanted, like, gratify I wanted them to to embrace it and and right away and be like, this is great. And that wasn't the point. I knew there was gonna be resistance because anytime you change any kind of, you know, workflow that someone's used to and has a habit or there's comfort with, it's gonna cause them to be uncomfortable, and they're gonna resist that. And it wasn't anything about me.
Joel Aylor:I was making it about me. So I had to go within myself and realize, you know, let go of that. Let go of the desire to always, you know, to have people, you know, appreciate what you're doing all the time or, you know, making everybody happy because it doesn't happen. You're gonna you're gonna upset people. You're gonna get that resistance, and that's okay.
Joel Aylor:It's part of it. You know from your experience that what you're doing is going to help them long term. You just gotta help them through that transition and that uncomfortable period. And once I did that and let go, it it it really opened me up as far as that position and also, you know, the respect that I got from other people who said who who knew that once we worked through this, it was gonna actually be for the better.
Joe Dermody:I think it helps you know your weaknesses a little bit more, and it can help you bolster those weaknesses with the right people around you if you're willing to to do that. I also think this is one of those shifts from the old ways of thinking to the unity way of thinking, kind of the old power to new power ways of thinking that is currently happening. So I think it's kind of a neat neat way to bring this in to the to the section. And it's something that we haven't, you know, that I think a lot of people don't think about a whole lot, and it's definitely a fun topic. So I'm really happy that we're getting into this right now.
Joe Dermody:Fun stuff happening right now in this age.
Sherri Keys:I just think, you know, just realizing nothing happens in a vacuum. And I think just, you know, coming from a continuous improvement background, I mean, we were taught the importance of, you know, bringing people into the conversation and how that influences your ability to drive change, to drive improvements, to drive not only improvements, but to drive improvements that are sustainable. And I think early on this going through that journey of just developing into a leader, that experience, that that background, became very invaluable. And I get going back to Joel's comment, you know, it's like, in that vacuum, you can think of all these great things that you think, well, you know, that would be wonderful. But if you don't have the masses behind you on that, you're never going to be able to get it implemented or sustained.
Sherri Keys:So just realizing the value of voice and inclusion in conversations, I think, for me became a valuable journey in my development.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, internal work we've talked about over the many episodes of this podcast is is totally applicable when it comes to leadership being if you don't know yourself, how are you going to know anybody else? You just don't you you don't understand how what you do impacts or influences other people. And when you become aware of that, you now have the ability to, again, use it for good and understand that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you're not happy with how people are responding or reacting to you, in most cases, it's not about changing them. It's about something you need to change and how you're approaching them.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I have found that to be some of my greatest successes I've had have come from that realization that wait a minute. Sherry will give you a couple of specific examples in business where I tried to do something. It was not received well, and I stepped back and said, okay. If that's not gonna work, let me find another way to do that that will work. And and and and I've had a lot of success creating because I'm aware enough that not everyone thinks the way I think, which which was probably the biggest hurdle I had to get over individually, is we all perceive that everybody thinks and sees and processes things the way we do and when and they don't.
Jeffrey Aylor:So you have to be flexible enough to allow people to process things in their own way and and know that the way you identified to do something may it's just a way. It's not the way. That's been big. The you know, so many people in a leadership role when they have a vision, they they also see every single step to get to that vision as and and they so they define a path, and they think that's the only path that you can take to get to that point, and that's not true. People can come from a lot of different directions and get to the same endpoint.
Jeffrey Aylor:Who was right? Well, they all are right, right? It is different. And a lot of times you've got to be open enough and have enough security to realize that people are gonna have different answers and come up with with solutions that are just as good, if not better than yours. So be open to that.
Jeffrey Aylor:Don't be afraid of that. And and realize that. You know, the ego, the ego wants credit for everything.
Joel Aylor:Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:There's a great statement that we made in our episode in awakening this week around leadership, or we will make as that episode will come out before this one that says the greatest leaders are not seen. They're really not very well known. But the effects of their leadership are. And the people that do the things that they have been influenced by that leader often say, well, we did it. And you know what?
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm okay with that. I've had to learn to be okay with that. And but that is so counterintuitive to the way the world defines leadership, and with the way the world defines influence today. Alright, so we're going to jump into this next great section talking about What Joel touched on in his opening response around servant leadership? Robert Greenleaf described servant leadership with a really powerful idea.
Jeffrey Aylor:He said the servant leader is servant first. The desire to serve comes before the desire to lead. So what changes when leadership begins with service instead of status?
Joel Aylor:Well, I think some of the worst leaders are the ones who wanted to be a leader. The desire to wanna lead is just comes from ego. It comes from a desire of having power and influence. I think the best leaders are ones who are servants first, who understand what it takes to do whatever it is that they're in charge of or responsible for, that can do it. They can step in and do it if need be, that they're not above doing the the job of their the lowest person on the on the totem pole, whatever you you know, whatever that might be.
Joel Aylor:And that's how I've always led my pharmacies. And there's you know, when when patients come by, they're like they are in shock that I'm sweeping the floors and vacuuming the floors. Like, what what are you doing? You're you're the pharmacist. Why are you doing that?
Joel Aylor:Well, because I do all the jobs in here. None of these jobs are are below me. We in in order to take care of this place, we all have to be able to do these things, and I'm no better than than this person. It's not required for them to do it. I don't mind to do it.
Joel Aylor:I'm able to do it right now. Whatever. So that's always been my mentality. I've never and I never like to hear someone say that's not my job. Well, and there are certain times where that, you know, comes into play, but in a pharmacy setting, they're literally a pharmacist is supposed to be able to do any and every job inside that pharmacy.
Joel Aylor:I'm in full and actual charge of all of it, and it's my responsibility to to to show them from a leadership perspective that I can do, you know, do this with you. We're in this together. And I think that's you know, it requires you to that that leader needs to humble themselves and realize that they're not more important than the other person no matter who they are. And I think that's where we get into trouble is when people who are in leadership roles that that want that leadership, that desire it, they usually are the dangerous ones.
Jeffrey Aylor:Totally agree. And I've seen that play out in many, many different environments.
Joe Dermody:Absolutely. It's those people that think that forget that we're all the same, that we're all the same. We're all one, and you're no better than anyone else. And when I help somebody do something, I don't just like Jeff said, I I don't want the credit for what what we just did. You know?
Joe Dermody:I would rather just let that be you. I'll I work to to make you shine. Right? Because by you shining in what you're doing, it it it lights that flame for all of us. Right?
Joe Dermody:And and, yeah, I'm not looking for the credit of this. It's not helping me to get that credit. It's helping all of us. And that's how I go about all of the work that I'm doing. Right?
Joe Dermody:And I feel good when it just succeeds, and that's enough for me. So and it's that way if I'm helping somebody on the street, if I'm helping somebody in the community, if I'm helping my wife, my family, my mom, my dad, anything. Right? I don't I'm not trying to take that credit. It it doesn't matter.
Joe Dermody:Let's just help people help the situation, and it's amazing how much better you'll feel just when doing something like that.
Sherri Keys:Well, there's no I in leadership. It's all about teamwork. And as a leader, I would never ask someone to do something that I wouldn't be willing to do myself, both in the business role and then personally. There's never a person that's a stranger to me. There's never a person that I would never reach out to to seek advice, to, you know, offer a hand or to do it the thing myself.
Sherri Keys:I think it's just, you know, it's important to to humble yourself, at various levels. I I feel like that's important in effective leadership.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I have to use Jesus as a great example of what I consider a servant leader, and I think all the stories we have of around his life demonstrate his servant first mindset. I came to serve, not to be served. I came to give and and and when people saw his leadership, they felt his influence. They they knew what he was saying was so dramatically more powerful than other people, even though his if you look at his background, you look at his upbringing, if you look there was nothing about him that gave him privilege. He earned that through what he did and did not do.
Jeffrey Aylor:And then when that was seen and felt by people, they wanted to elevate him to a position of leadership and power and influence. And he at that point even said, no. No. I don't want earthly title. I don't want this position.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's not what I'm here to be and do. And oh, by the way, you can do greater things than I'm doing. So anyone who looks at Jesus and and I I don't worship him. I love him. I think he is a perfect example of what God has instilled in all of us and expects from all of us.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I think that's the exact lesson he came to teach us is that we are all we all have influence. We all have this within ourselves. And it's not for our good, it's for the good of the collective. We benefit. Yes, you you get by giving.
Jeffrey Aylor:That that that that is so difficult for people to understand. When you're giving, you're not depleting yourself because the store of is is abundant. We live in abundance. Love is abundant. You can't give enough love.
Jeffrey Aylor:You can't. You can't out give the universe when it comes to love And that whole concept, if the world were judging Jesus today as to whether or not he was successful, he would have been considered by the world a miserable and utter failure. But how much influence has that life had? Substantial. It's probably the most significant life that you can put a finger on today.
Jeffrey Aylor:And all of that from humble beginnings, all of that from a position of service, all of that from a position of of spirit and oneness and unity and love. Perfect example to me. I always tell people, you know, the Bible is a great leadership book. It's a great leadership and management book, and and Jesus is a great example. Not just for in so many ways.
Jeffrey Aylor:So for anyone out there who thinks that we're not, we don't love Jesus or that we are, you know, we do probably more more so than ever before. And I value the the example and the lessons and the the leadership that he has given the world to build from. So how you know, how do you how do you empower people rather than create dependency? I find
Joel Aylor:a lot of
Jeffrey Aylor:times that leaders they want followers. To your point earlier, you said, know, leaders, you know, it's not about followers. I don't want people to be dependent on me, because that creates a relationship that is draining and straining and difficult to manage long term. Yet I know people, and I know you know people. They want people to be dependent on them.
Joel Aylor:Yeah. I have one of those in a high level position right now. Like, he wants everything to go through him. He wants every decision, everything that we're doing to go through him, and it's not he's not even he's not even a pharmacist. He's just a business executive, and it it's draining.
Joel Aylor:It causes issues. He wants that power, and that's what's why it's so damaging sometimes. But to empower people instead of creating dependence, you have to you have to give them the tools to be successful. You have to teach them what they need to know. You have to give them the resources that they need to do the job that they do.
Joel Aylor:Because without it, they they're you're basically already, you know, handcuffing them from being able to to to have that kind of power or to have that kind of leadership in the amongst in in themselves. So you have to you have to cultivate it. You have to, you know, put them into a an environment of growth as opposed to, you know, compliance. And as long as you, you know, provide for them what they need, you can let go, and and they will they will take it their their own way. And usually not ways you're expecting, and that's okay.
Joel Aylor:To your point, I mean, you know, sometimes they, you know, get there a different way, but they may get there a way you didn't think about or that may be better than what you even thought. So detach from the outcomes and and try not to control everything because sometimes when you try to control everything, you lose control of it.
Jeffrey Aylor:You never had it anyway. Right? That's all.
Joel Aylor:It's just a facade. It's a
Jeffrey Aylor:you never had control anyway.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. I I agree. I think it's through education and example. Right? Teach them and show them.
Sherri Keys:And empower them. So I'll add another word to just, I did or used.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. Exactly. I agree too.
Joel Aylor:Empower them with support. Be there for them, then let them know you're there.
Jeffrey Aylor:I tell my team, I'm going to ask you to do something, but then I'm going to turn around saying now what can I do to help you? How can I help you? What do you need to know? What knowledge do we need to get? What what tools do we have to have?
Jeffrey Aylor:How can and that is that's our job as a leader is to become the servant. You know, I've always believed that the hierarchy, the pyramid, the triangle. I've always believed that the hierarchy, the pyramid, the triangle in the best organizations is inverted. It's inverted, and that is a powerful organization when the leaders see themselves as servant of all, servant of all. So you know, we know we've got leadership in a lot of different areas of life.
Jeffrey Aylor:There's leadership in government, there's leadership in religion, there's leadership in education, there's leaderships and family, There's leadership in health care. There's leadership in business. And. You know, some people have greater. Skills and ability to lead in any of those different roles.
Jeffrey Aylor:Some can lead in many different roles. Some people are just natural leaders. Some people just. People gravitate to them regardless of what role or position that they happen to be in. At any given time, and if there's one thing this world needs today, it is good, strong, healthy, whole leadership.
Jeffrey Aylor:I truly believe a lot of the suffering we're experiencing in the world today is because of leadership that is much more ego driven than than driven from a position or state of wholeness, and it's separation mindset versus unity mindset. But I believe that the work we're doing, the work that many people are doing, I think the fact that people are questioning that at this point because it is so uncomfortable, it is so unpleasant, and it's becoming so obvious that it's that way, that ultimately, you know, the world is is going to transition. So I think maybe one of the greatest acts of healing is is becoming the person that we once needed. Become the person that you've you've needed, right, to lead you. So what qualities do you wish every leader embodied?
Joel Aylor:I wish that they a leader would know themselves because they have to come from a place of wholeness in order to basically give from that same space to understand who they are, what they bring, how they interact with everyone, And to understand that even when they're having a bad day, they can, you know, you know, know that. They sense that. You know? Don't react from that space because they know that's not their full self. They're they're they're not their cup is is running in running low because you can't give what you don't have.
Joel Aylor:So, you know, just an inner knowing of themselves, I think is a huge part of it. And I think when someone knows themselves, they're going to come from a more humble place. They're gonna come from a place of of servitude more so than they would if it was more ego driven and mind driven.
Joe Dermody:Lead with love. Include whoever you're leading in in decisions and be transparent.
Jeffrey Aylor:Be available.
Joe Dermody:You know? But mostly lead with love.
Sherri Keys:It's different way of saying it, the same words, but just lead with compassion, realizing that people are in different places and within their lives and their journeys and understanding and the willingness to want to seek an understanding of that is very important. Engaging everyone in the dialogue, giving people the free will or autonomy to come with ideas and to illustrate their knowledge and their ability to drive value, I think is very important.
Joe Dermody:Direction Lead
Sherri Keys:and support. You know, understand that everyone's not no one's perfect. That we if we were, we would never have have the need to be taught anything. Right? So you learn from mistakes and you grow from mistakes and just, you know, having that space to give grace and to allow for future development and ongoing growth, I think is important.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, certainly love is a foundation of what I think every leader should be building on and the belief and understanding that we are all connected. I think it's so critical that a leader realize that we are all connected in every facet and form, that there really are no boundaries. There are no barriers. There are no walls. There are no nations.
Jeffrey Aylor:There are no barriers that truly separate us. Those are all in our mind. They're all made up. They're all and when they recognize oneness, and that life is about flow, and how to help people get into that flow and and maximize their value and potential that they came into this world to exhibit, because I believe everyone came here to learn, to grow, to exhibit great purpose, then, you know, this world will become heaven on earth. So as we close this conversation, you know, maybe leadership was never meant to be about standing above others.
Jeffrey Aylor:Maybe true leadership is really standing with others. It's not as Porna has said in the times past, she said it's not power over its power with. So seeing what's possible sometimes before they can even see it themselves, creating space where people can remember their gifts, their worth, their light, Because a leader that's rooted in unity does not create followers. They help awaken that leadership ability in others. So Joel, Joe, Sherry, again, as always, thank you for sharing your wisdom, your experience, your your life and knowledge, your example to everyone listening.
Jeffrey Aylor:And to everyone that is listening, remember someone is always experiencing the world through your presence. So I hope that you'll take this conversation, and in every circumstance you have opportunity, lead with kindness, lead with courage, lead with love, and with that, the space between continues. As we come to a close, remember that this journey continues in many expressions. This podcast is part of a family of partner podcasts. Awakening heaven on earth.
Jeffrey Aylor:The space between heaven and earth, and Living Heaven on Earth are three companion podcasts exploring spiritual awakening from complementary perspectives. Awakening heaven on earth offers the core teachings and mystical reflections on unity, love, and conscious living. The space between creates room for dialogue, reflection, and lived conversation around those teachings. Living Heaven on Earth focuses on basic spiritual practices that help embody these insights in daily life. Together, they form a unified journey of understanding, experience, and integration.
Jeffrey Aylor:Inviting listeners to remember their connection with the divine, with one another, and with the living world. You can find all of them available on the same podcast streaming platforms wherever you listen. And if music helps carry these teachings deeper into the heart, The Unity. Awakening Heaven on Earth album is available on all major music streaming services as a musical companion to this journey. Wherever you engage through listening, reflection, conversation, or music.
Jeffrey Aylor:May it gently remind you, you are not separate. You belong to the one life and heaven is already unfolding within you. Until next time. Walk gently, love deeply, and embody heaven on earth.