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We're talking about brand. We're even trying to define it. Understand what makes a good brand and how you can make your brand better. Views, thoughts, and commentary for clients and agencies. Brought to you by Good, a brand consultancy based in the UK.
Stewart
Right, I've hit the button and look who's back. It's Julie Murdoch. Oh, thank God for that. She's back. Thank God.
Chris
Muscling her way back in.
Stewart
Thank God you're back.
Julie
I've been muscling my way anywhere.
Chris
You've not been on the pod for ages. I know, you've been... You've been what?
Julie
We've been...
Chris
On holidays.
Julie
I know, you've been busy talking to clients.
Chris
These holidays are not going to take themselves. No, I'm not. One holiday.
Julie
One holiday for the October week.
Chris
How many holidays have you had, Stewart?
Stewart
You know this is getting cut. I've not had any holidays. That's my choice. So it's not... This is such a great place to work, isn't it?
Julie
Every day is a holiday for Stewart. Oh, I know.
Stewart
And as soon as I get paid, I'll have hit the jackpot. Do you get paid?
Julie
Well, not yet.
Stewart
No, I just do it because I'm hoping that one day, you know, just keep going. One day, one day I'll get paid. But at the moment, I'm not going to get paid if I take holidays, am I? I mean... No, quite right. It's not going to happen. Look at your blue,
Julie
but look at your wee purple background
Stewart
today. I know, I know, I know. That's the energy. I'm bringing the purple energy. Before we kick off, Gilles, and I know you'll have missed this, but Chris has a joke. He's not done a lot of jokes because he's been saving them all for you. Chris, crack on.
Chris
Okay. Of late, I've been worrying an awful lot about German sausages. I suppose it's just because I fear the worst.
Julie
Where do you get these from?
Stewart
And more importantly, where can you put them back?
Julie
Right, let's crack on.
Stewart
That's good.
Julie
Cue the music.
Stewart
Welcome to the Good Brand Podcast Good is a brand consultancy based in the United Kingdom And we do brand for businesses all over the world Serious stuff My name is Stewart Steel Well, it's serious stuff My name is Stewart Steel I work at Good, I'm the Strategy Director I don't get paid there I don't get paid and I don't get holidays But one day A boy can dream Boy can dream. Boy does dream. And I'm joined today by Ms Julie Murdoch, who is the Managing Director of Good.
Julie
I am.
Stewart
You are? Hello. And I get paid. And you do. Of course you get paid.
Julie
And I get holidays.
Stewart
Of course you do. And Mr Chris London, founder, founding partner of Good, whose remuneration is Musk-esque in its complexity. Well, I was going to say,
Chris
I think we should go for the million or the trillion. hello hello hello it's nice to be back it's nice to be back as a team
Stewart
we've had some good conversations with other people but it's like a warm blanket when I'm joined by my homies a wee warm hug I like it your brand homies my brand homies on the mean streets of brand town in the brand mines
Julie
this is going to be shambolic today I can tell already there's too much like crazy energy going on
Stewart
we're only starting high because we're going to argue because I can't.
Julie
Well, why not? Why break the habit of a lifetime? And, you know, we've been arguing all week, so we might as well carry it into the park.
Chris
How dare you? Arguably, we have been enhancing the conversation.
Julie
No, no.
Stewart
And now for more conversation. To prove the point. So hold on tight, kids. So today, we're going to talk about an article that Chris wrote on LinkedIn. And it just, I mean, to say it ripped up, ripped up. We had a wee competition to see how many people, Chris said, how many impressions do you think? And I said 100. And I said more than 100. More than 100.
Julie
I don't know, it just keeps... It's 1,200 times more than 100.
Chris
I write a lot of stuff on LinkedIn, as we all do, and it disappears into the oblivion and no one ever, you know, nothing happens. And that's what you expect. But you do it because you do it. But so let's not keep the people in suspense. What's the... well it was a thing it was it was something or nothing it was a it was a it was a piece it was my take on the lululemon letter ad that was put in the press by the founder chip wilson about criticizing the current board and saying that they'd lost their way and it's lost fit the brand i think this is maybe the bit that that why it flew is because the company and it was in the headline the company's lost 50 of its market capitalization earned from brand power and he blames the company losing its way because over lots of things he has a bit of a rant in it but i i think his his core criticism is that you know because there are other criticisms about products and the way it operates and the leadership but underneath it all he thinks the company's lost sight of of what it was for and who it was for and and i know that it's maybe i packaged it up it's probably you know it's probably more and it is much more complex than that but still a lot of uh it's a lot of brand value and it's quite unusual i think to hear you know founders like that ascribe and it's and it's reassuring and i think it i'm glad to hear it people saying look the brand is extremely valuable and um we've lost a lot of value through from from from mismanagement from from from our brand so and i just drew the the point to say like we see this a lot when clarity you know becomes things get confused the thing gets bigger and bigger and bigger and you know and you get lots and lots of people want as lots and lots of markets with lots and lots of opinions and the brand stops being clear because it tries to service too many kind of I suppose masters internally and you can't be for it I say in the thing you can't be for everyone and expect to stay extremely powerful and they've struggled so I think that it's a rare can I say the thing it's a reminder from someone who's built billions in value that brand isn't a soft and I like this line brand isn't soft it's the hardest most valuable thing that our business owns so that was it and I touched the article that I had and lots of people kind of commented and, and some people disagreed. Some people challenged some, you know, you know, I mean, fine, I'm not going to, it's just my take on it. It's just a something or nothing. And that was it. But I then we, what was interesting and I'll stop talking in a minute. I'll let you guys talk is that, you know, we were talking about it internally and Stewart, you have some challenges too. And Jules, you, you heard some thoughts as well being a, I mean, I think it was you that introduced me to that brand Jules. So anyway, that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. Thoughts?
Julie
I think my view on this, well, we could all talk about the same kind of things, but it's from a customer point of view. And it's funny, I was saying just before the podcast when we were talking, you kind of review that article and think about this conversation from someone who buys and has a, you know, I've bought Lululemon for a long time and I've been a customer for a long time, thinking about it from using the product and continuing to use the product point of view. versus with a brand hat on in a brand consultancy type. And it is because it's quite different. I'm like, well, why am I? Anyway, I was introduced to the brand through one of their community-based initiatives because they had, and I don't know if they still do, that's the thing, through ambassador, they had a big brand ambassador program that drove their kind of community sort of roots. And I presume that's where the kind of women who inspires culture, blah, blah, blah, because it was about those ambassadors were real everyday athletes that inspire people day to day i don't know what the kind of quote brand take on it was it was quite nice so in my case it was a yeah yeah in my case it was you know it was the owner of our crossfit gym do you know i mean and she was a brand ambassador for little lemon in glasgow she's now legacy ambassador has been for years and they that's basically why we started also because you got a discount well it does show the power of of that because our entire gym pretty much from went went from wearing nike when stella had trained at nike to lululemon now the prop where the prop and i think 10 15 years on the product is just as good and i think that's where i have a challenge over some of those out because the the experience and the quality is worth the price point in my view there are cheaper alternatives even with mainstream high street brands that a lot of people but i and i think from a customer perspective the product hasn't significantly changed they're still essentially an apparel and accessories brand who make really good gym stuff so the rest of it kind of becomes white noise you stopped using it no no no no no yes and i wouldn't and i wouldn't until so it's interesting that you you're talking about the the
Chris
the period when the brand was really well, you know, knew what it was, it knew where it was coming from and you guys bought into that. And, um, it's, uh, you know, it was really powerful for you. Um, but the brand has also grown massively. It has expanded a norm. And I think that's to your point, Stewart, isn't it? Go on, come on then.
Julie
Do you mean growing in terms of what, in terms of the range or in terms of,
Chris
as you're talking like value? Everything. Yeah. Every line, every increment has gone through the roof.
Stewart
Yeah, it's an interesting thing about, on one hand, I kind of look at Chip and go, all right, son, you left in 2014. You were in a bit of a huff before you left. You were in a huff after it. But the business has grown, and that's why it was sold. Because obviously somebody saw the opportunity for the growth to go crazy, and they've done it. So I kind of look at it and go, you're going on to brand because what else really do you have to kind of complain about because it's not the same? And it raises a more interesting question to me as to going, can businesses scale? You know, can brand scale? Because you see it with Starbucks, you know, the reason that as soon as they had their IPO, the reason that Starbucks, when you looked at the menu and the combinations of drinks you could have, there were something like 3,600 combinations of drinks and that was because they had to keep adding in more money and making sure there was more. So that was adding in more things to the point without forgetting about the customer. So the kind of interesting thing is if you want growth, where does the customer fit into that? Do you kind of go, well, you know what? We're just going to add more and more and more because somebody will buy. And at some point, is it possible to keep scale and growth and expectations of the stock market but say, actually, no, we're happy here?
Julie
and does that or or is it tighter because i want you know i think again looking at it from because brand can clearly scale if you look at some other you know if you there was and i was you know you know the kind of the patagonia types or that you look at apple do you know i mean it wasn't all you know but then not to quote apple but they but they're the roots of lululemon was in that kind of community driven initiatives and is that where the challenge is coming from you go from being a community-driven brand ambassadorial type brand you know program and brand into a marketing driven organization that feels very different from a you know and is that where some
Chris
of the challenge lives yeah it's like brew dog isn't it you suddenly you start off by nibbling away and winning people away from the establishment and then you suddenly become the establishment and and that's what happened it is a it's a cautionary tale but i suppose if you if you if you give up and sell part I don't know the financial bit underpinnings of new I presume there's private equity and then they grew and grew and grew and that's what happened and yeah your question is where where where are we going because you know Nike sits at the top of that tree doesn't it is a business that's scale but it's scaled over decades you know with a very clear understanding of who it was and what it was I mean you've been looking at recently and kind of up until I know but there there there's no signs they're on their way back right So Nike is never going to, you know, but the point is it took a long time and it wasn't scaled the same way. So there is more of a kind of institutional memory or understanding around what that business is all about. I think Jules's point is a good one in that at the beginning, there was this kind of shared sense of purpose around it. Maybe that's gone and it's just all about scale. And, you know, the share price becomes more important than potentially the product or the next product or the next innovation, because that's part of his critique.
Julie
But then that's what I have a challenge on, because I don't think there has been, like the core product has not significantly changed.
Chris
Are you using that as a criticism? No, I think that's a strength.
Julie
I think that they've introduced, you know, they introduced new lines, they introduced new variations on the theme. you know I'm talking about and they have you know of course there's like leisure wear and stuff like that and some but I don't think it's not like I don't from I think from a product sense and from a product perspective from a customer point of view I don't see that kind of loss of focus I think if you look walk into a store today versus walking into a store 10 years ago the experience isn't drastically different in terms of what you're shopping for you know if you're going in for a pair of wonder train leggings you're going to get pretty much what you would have bought you know i mean i don't the quality hasn't that may have been part of the criticism because it's about the npd
Chris
and and all that stuff and the business has become all about the business because it was yeah rather than the innovation and so then you know it's losing share to new there'll be new people
Stewart
chasing it you know that's the well it's not even used it's dupes it's people that's the big thing mean lululemon tried to get a lululemon dupes trademark because it's the whole thing about it's the what we talked about in the last podcast the chinese manufacturing now is so good that they can take what lululemon done they can spin it out they'll put a little bit of a shiny brand on it they'll call it a dupe it's not a it's interesting it's not a fake it's an interesting choice of language these aren't fakes or these are dupes which is kind of for whatever reason yeah for whatever reason it's somewhat more acceptable that you know so you'll get a little lemon juice and it'll feel the same so you're kind of up against that
Chris
competition which isn't a brand I think that's all real incredible but I do think at the heart of the thing that struck me was that the point and we you know we see it and that you know what started off as an instinctive kind of passion the bigger the business gets the more complicated and there were the more people that are involved and the more kind of lost the original vision becomes until the process itself kind of you know is is the it's driving the whole business and it and and it becomes almost impossible to innovate or do anything new or trendy or fashionable because there are there's so much
Stewart
friction to hit the bell to hit the apple bell which i know julie's already hit but i'll hit the apple bell now because that's there i mean steve jobs realized that he's you know you've heard of steve
Chris
jobs. I have heard of him.
Stewart
He was the founder of Apple. He made telephones. Computers before telephones. Yeah, he did that. What he saw at Apple was the fact that the culture that they created was exceptionally precious. So there was the Apple University that everybody has to go through to understand fully the heart of the brand. Not how you make things or how to fill out a form to do your expenses, but there's the Apple University. And so the brand is... a boot camp and instead rather than it being a loose kind of you know uh we do this and we do that and it's kind of nice and it's kind of fluffy it was instilled there's a program to actually instill the ethics the the well the ethos of of the brand in there and i think sometimes big brands at that level starbucks being one a notable example is that you it's assumed that you know what it is and as soon as you start putting the investor at the heart of the business rather than the customer that's when the thing that's if there's a commonality that's when the wheels seem
Chris
to come off a little bit yeah it's this talk about soul isn't it the soul of the business and it's all about yeah the share price on the investor and it does feel uh that's when you when it starts to exit but i but i do think that yeah and that's a good point but i do think that that's something that nike has managed to to protect and control quite well because of his very you know that that central kind of just do it thing and anyone with a body is an athlete and all that stuff. That's always managed to be quite central to and certainly in my belief to them and what they do. It's a great point, the culture of the business and brand has a job as we often talk about, don't we? The brand has a job of holding all that together. And if you can't hold that line, then what have you got?
Julie
But that is something that, and again, I don't, I wonder, I don't know how much of of that has changed genuinely because I know that you know the similar to what you were talking about with Apple Stewart the the initiatives and the programs that were run as part of either an onboarding but not just an onboarding exercise for Lululemon employees and not talking management and leadership I mean people working on across the business it was always you know on the shop floor people who are engaging with customers day to day and there was you know there were funded initiatives for stuff that were completely out with the world of you know there was lots of I think every member of staff gets a monthly contribution for something that's health and wellness so it could pay for your gym membership or it could be to go for a yoga retreat or whatever you know and they had so it was obviously there was a financial aspect of it but the package that was built around a kind of the remuneration of being an employee was very much tied to kind of the core of what they are as a brand and a business and I guess that whole thing about you know the women who inspires culture and all that you know not falls it would be interesting to hear from an internal point of view has there been us is there and I don't know the answer to that is there has there been a sense of a kind of cultural shift where there's less focus and less on that kind of things and how does that bleed out
Chris
yeah does it become just a little bit too it's more about uh money and finance than it is about
Stewart
marketing and brand building possibly and that that's the good I mean again just for the third time I think I'll probably turn into an apple now I mean it's Tim Cook who kind of goes when the stock price falls they don't ask him now what happens because he goes listen if you don't want to we don't the public face we don't look at that because we're thinking long term you know we're not and again that kind of if a business moves from private to public that has to change the way you're looking because you're always looking and we've seen that certain clients suddenly stop spending a few weeks before a quarter is at the end because they want to cash because it's good for the thing so we we see that in it they change so it's an interesting how how do you shift how do you keep the heart of the business yeah and it's it also asks the
Chris
question of where what were they trying to do i was like you know it's like let's get bigger what how big you know you mentioned that's the point no that's the point though how big what are we we trying to do are we trying to beat nike at its own game or what because that's not where they necessarily came from so that in itself growth in itself and the pursuit of growth in itself it's not necessarily aligned with the brand right i mean it's like what and that's why i suppose bored and money men take over then and it becomes an exercise of you know your analogy about getting the woolly mammoth it's trying to you know it's trying to get out the door but you could also say
Stewart
thing is to get the products to as many people as possible you know and that's where growth comes from because you're you're doing that and china was a big guess what china was a big thing for them i don't know where they are now but it becomes the focus and it's about as many as possible and how many businesses have done that i mean you know from greg's to you know you're it's a greg's in every corner you know but it's the same kind of thing we'll get greg's in every corner it's It's more surprising when a Greg's, which is a baker's in the UK, it's more surprising when a Greg closes down rather than when it opens because you kind of go, how did it fail there?
Chris
I do wonder that, like, you know, what is the strategy that, what is the end game? More. It's capitalism. But maybe I'm naive. I just want it to be a bit more than that. There has to be something a little bit deeper than that, you know.
Stewart
um why because you've got investors who are investing in you and their job is looking for
Chris
what is the challenge rationally that is the point you've got investors that want their money back and and you have to and and i mean look at where we are with ai look at the amount of money that's been invested in those businesses and what is now expected of them in terms of delivering value back the stock market's going to pop i mean that that's right so the question then this becomes more of This becomes less of a brand podcast and more of an existential question of what is... How much more is enough?
Stewart
Yeah, yeah. When is enough enough? I'm not telling you where I've buried my gold.
Chris
But it's interesting, isn't it? Like, what role brand plays in that?
Stewart
It would be the kind of thing where you go enough. And the kind of thing is you would like to think what we would say is that brand should dictate. Yeah.
Julie
So if you've got those foundations, then that's what directs and dictates what's enough, let's guide it. And if it is about bringing that notion of, well, no, I mean, but is it living in communities to inspire women who want to do blah, blah, blah, or is it taking that message to as many people as possible? And if you take it out of that community thing into something that's global and mainstream, then what does that look like? It's not necessarily unachievable, but it needs to. But it changes. If it's not clearly, you know, if that decision-making process isn't linked to those brand foundations, then of course it's going to go off-kilter because you've got nothing to look back to.
Stewart
Even because the Glasgow Lululemon store was in Royal Exchange Square, which is quite nice. It's nice and everything. You kind of felt like it was... The only thing I bought from Lululemon was a wee beanie hat because I don't know why, but it beanie daft me. So we went and bought that in there and it's a nice store and everything else. It was very friendly. Whereas then you suddenly saw them malls and it felt a bit faceless and again apple ding ding ding but apple at least are trying to put their own personality and spending a lot of money on creating that temple to the brand and and making it feel you know making it feel whereas some of the lululemons i've been in just kind of feel it's been a standard fit out that's not had any thought to it it's kind of going look here's that there there and there and it works but it's not nice well and but
Julie
interestingly they and again i don't know how i don't know how much of a shift because they obviously have a lot of you know there's men's you know when you think look at like have we lost our focus it's very female focus but there's a massive menswear you know collection that they have i don't know it'd be interesting to know how much of the you know how much of the revenue comes from the you know male versus female ranges must be must be about 80 20 women yeah but the point when we went in because obviously one of my hobbies is visiting little lemon stores in a variety of cities but the one in new york there's a massive one in new york that literally has a downstairs i think it was new it has a big massive room downstairs for like the the other halves basically husband's room where you can go and sit and jump on the wi-fi he was delighted he was like i'm happy here it's fine take as long as you like but things like obviously you're like it's no you they're doing you're like i find make them happy i'll go and take as long as you like spend as you like and spend as much as you like exactly and i did well but yeah so i don't it's it's a
Chris
but i think i don't know i mean we're just talking about i don't it seemed to hit a
Julie
people were interested in it i don't know well i think well everyone has a view in it don't they because it's a you know it's a consumer they know the brand yeah they know the consumer brand i think
Stewart
what was interesting the last couple of podcasts we had with robert and with catherine is that at the top level that they're both operating that admittedly in b2b businesses which are very functional and a different kind of things anytime they're talking about a brand exercise they want customers in and and it was interesting even at that top level that's what they're wanting and i dare say that you know nobody suggested for a second that lulu lemon stopped talking to customers over the last 14 years well they might have because well they did because they did do like
Julie
their product they did and again it was that community level because they were run by you know keep i think i don't know if they were flagship oh yeah well they did one in glasgow i don't know if they do i don't know how they actually legit but they did design workshops with customers so basically here's a bunch of products trial it coming back and tell us what you like about it and don't like about it um and also stuff existing stuff that you have it was so yeah has some have the has that some of that been lost that very kind of real down to you know nitty-gritty you know VOC type stuff.
Chris
Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.
Stewart
Well, I've no doubt, Chrissy, if they're sitting at the next board meeting at Lululemon, I go, do you see this on the LinkedIn? Lumsden's gone mental. He's up to 13,000 impressions. Wow. And I'm sure they'll come on the podcast to explain themselves. I think so. Yeah, well, we'll give them the right to do that.
Julie
Maybe give you some free Lululemon pants.
Chris
I've got some stuff. It is good quality stuff.
Julie
Yeah?
Chris
It's good. I lost my beanie in a drunken night out.
Stewart
I think Julie, I think I lost it twice. I think the first time Julie dragged me back to the hotel and went, there's your bloody hat there. I went, all right, okay. And then the second time I lost it because Julie wasn't there. It's a loss of maybe. So a Lululemon beanie should come with a free Julie. A free Julie.
Chris
I did value. So there we go. I don't think there's anything more we can conclude from that than it was an interesting brand story in the press.
Stewart
Yeah. All right.
Julie
I'd just like them to keep making good leggings because that makes me happy. So you went. Good. That's the game. Very good. Thank you. Very, very good. Nice to speak to you. Bye-bye. Say goodbye. Bye.