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How do you lead when five generations share the same mission—but not always the same mindset?
In this timely episode of Behind the Seal, David Robbins, Global President of Cru, joins host Michael Martin to explore the challenges and opportunities of Cross-Generational Leadership.
From Gen Z’s boldness to Boomers’ steadfastness, David shares how understanding, repentance, and relational trust can transform generational tension into unity. Drawing from his global leadership experience and years leading FamilyLife, David offers real-life lessons on building trust, cultivating humility, and leading at the Lord’s pace.
If you’re navigating a multi-generational team, board, or ministry, this episode will help you build bridges that strengthen your mission—and your people.
About David Robbins:
David Robbins serves as the Global President of Cru, a worldwide Christian ministry helping to fulfill the Great Commission through evangelism, discipleship, and leadership development.
Over the past 25 years with Cru, David and his wife, Meg, have served in a variety of ministry contexts—from discipling college students and young professionals in New York City to leading FamilyLife, a global ministry focused on strengthening marriages and families.
David and Meg live in Orlando, Florida, with their four children. Their family embodies his leadership message: serving together, learning together, and following Jesus faithfully across generations.
Additional Resources:
Creators and Guests
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
David Robbins Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] David Robbins: Assuming the worst and then not choosing to invest in the next generation becomes one of the biggest trust killers. It's hard to have a conversation about generations and not get labels about how bad a certain generation is. They've been shaped by the cultural forces that have happened in their time and things they've walked through, and they're gonna bring great things to the table and we need to invest in them.
[00:00:24] Ryan Gordon: How do you lead a team that spans five generations, each with different rhythms, values, and definitions of "urgent?" In today's episode, Michael Martin sits down with David Robbins, president of Cru to discuss what it takes to lead teams that span from boomers to Gen Z without losing heart or focus.
This conversation surprised me. David doesn't just talk about leadership strategy. He talks about repentance, humility, and learning to lead at the Lord's pace. It's practical and personal. And it's essential for every ministry leader.
If you've ever felt the tension of leading people who see the world differently, this one's for you.
Let's dive in.
[00:01:08] Michael Martin: Well, hi David. Welcome to the ECFA podcast. It's so good to have you on.
Hey Michael. So good to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
Yeah. Well thank you. Well, first of all, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for your leadership of Cru, one of the great, uh, charter members of ECFA, actually going back almost 50 years and you've just recently, you come out of what, year one, I think leading
[00:01:30] David Robbins: That's right.
[00:01:30] Michael Martin: The organization. And so it's been, we'll have to jump in and hear that story at some point. But yeah, thank you so much for your partnership and the great ministry of Cru.
[00:01:39] David Robbins: Well, ever since 25 years ago, raising my initial support, uh, as a new staff member with Cru, um, I've been so grateful for ECFA and, uh, the fact that we are a part of it and the credibility that that brings and the legacy of what you guys do, that that help so many, um, stay true and steward well and help others steward where to give.
So, thank you guys.
[00:02:05] Michael Martin: Well, thank you. What you do definitely inspires us in so many ways, and I think we gave you the forewarning ahead of time. This is the Behind the SEAL podcast. We're going behind the scenes with, with ECFA members and, uh, just talking about some of the real life issues that they're wrestling with and of course, you know, hearing some of your story as well.
And so I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while because David, one of the, uh, what I'd say most challenging issues that a lot of our. ECFA members, and I know a lot of other ministries today are facing is how do we navigate this sort of melting pot in the workplace when it comes to like mm-hmm.
Multi-generational. And I know, um, at Cru leading a, a large staff, you are multi-generational. You've also done a lot of multi-generational ministry. So I've just been looking forward to this conversation and getting to get some wisdom from you.
[00:02:55] David Robbins: Oh man, it's so fun to get to talk about it. It's lived experiences.
I'm still learning [00:03:00] immensely and it's this active process of so many ministries, um, are maturing to a point where there are five active generations that they're leading and stewarding and wanting to shepherd well and keep mobilizing in the mission. So it's a real thing and it's growing and evolving with a new generation now entering the workforce with Gen Z.
So it's a fun conversation and learning a lot still.
[00:03:23] Michael Martin: Yeah, it really is. Well, maybe starting, let's go from the outside in, I guess I'll put it that way. Mm-hmm. And thinking about from an outward facing standpoint, some of the prior roles that you've had at Cru has been very much involved in, um, you know, reaching the next generation for Christ.
Um, and so I'd be curious, just, you know, leaning in on to, to all of your experiences there, what were some of the most rewarding aspects of, uh, reaching across generational lines and seeing this next generation come to Christ?
[00:03:52] David Robbins: Yeah. You know, for 15 years, my wife Meg and I, we worked with college students and loved working with the rising generation.
And then we moved to New York City and worked with 20 somethings that were in the work world and in the, you know, starting their, um, vocational callings. And yet how do they continue to live with the redemptive edge and live on mission? And then we went to Family Life and led family life and. Got to work with marriages and families.
Not only keep growing personally, but have an impact in their corner of the world. And the, the highlight has always been helping ordinary people do that extraordinary thing of live for a story bigger than themselves, to not try to be the protagonist in their story, but Jesus be the protagonist and, um, to live for something bigger for themselves and trust God.
That, and no matter what age we are. Generational makeup. We're in city, we're in Act 17 is always true. That he makes a lot of periods of times and exact dwelling places so that we can participate in helping draw people toward Jesus. And so the joy of different, whether it's college students or 20 somethings or families.
Look where they are discern. Ask that question of God, why have you placed me here at this time in this place? And how can I join you in what you're already doing in this community and city, neighborhood, location, workplace? Um, it is. The, the immense privilege to get to team up with God and a fan and de flame someone seeing where they are and take extraordinary steps of faith to be a part of his kingdom building is, has been the highlight and what all, all the different chapters and different generations we've gotten to work with where people stop just consuming, but wanna be a conduit for Jesus and experience him and express him out to, to the people that God's put in their path.
[00:05:42] Michael Martin: That's awesome. Yeah. As you were sharing that, I can just. Shout out to, uh, everybody who's listening to us on video, on YouTube. Um, I see the, uh, the smile on your face as you're sharing that. And I just imagine the, the real life stories that are behind that answer as you're just reflecting on, you know, everybody that [00:06:00] God called you to, uh, gave you the opportunity to be able to reach during that time period.
And, uh, David, I feel like we, we hear a lot, there's even some statistics now that are, um, beginning to emerge where. Uh, we're seeing some signs of revival in the next generation. I'd love for you to be able to tell us maybe even quickly, are you seeing something different in this upcoming generation as it relates to openness, receptivity, what may be sparking some of that revival?
[00:06:27] David Robbins: Yeah, well it's, there's no doubt and now there's data to actually back it up, and I could go through and list maybe a lot of articles people have read recently. But one of the unique things about this year for me, stepping in the global president role is that this whole first year has been about making it to almost every region of the world and meeting with our leaders and nations in those regions and.
You know, to list a few to be at an All Africa leadership conference with 300 African leaders from 48 countries in the room. You know, it's the, the youngest continent with 60% of the people in Africa under 25. Wow. So we think about the potential of who they will be and what they're becoming to see how God is drawing this next generation to himself.
And there's an agency that they're experiencing if we want to be, you know, not just receiving nations, but sending nations for the kingdom of God. Not just a mission filled, but a mission force for the kingdom. And to hear that next generation believe and talk. Prepared to trust God, to do the work, to do that.
Um, it's amazing to see the energy and the effort that they're trusting God with in the uk. I was just, uh, two weeks ago on a Zoom call with our, uh, UK leader. And national director and she was just talking about this quiet revival thing is real. And she started listing off a few stories of just what our ministry in that, you know, country is seeing that really just is part of the stream of what God is doing in particular, um, you know, through the body of Christ at large, certainly within churches there of attendance rising, especially among Gen Z men.
And then, hmm. You know, it's probably what's most known is, um, you know, for this audience perhaps is just in the US is, you know, there's no doubt that when you look at the data, the future of the church, the global south is gonna have a lot to say about it. It's amazing what's happening in Latin America and, and Africa and beyond, but.
God is renewing something in the west too. And this rising generation, there's an openness that whether it's that craving for authenticity and you know, every generation reacts to certain things happening in their lifetime. And I just think there's this, uh, craving for, there is an unseen, there is something eternal that's not just temporal.
And if there is, they're gonna go seek it out and. People are bold, you're stop you. Um, this next, next generation in the US in particular, I feel like they're, [00:09:00] it's stop trying to be cool and savvy to speak plainly. And, you know, I love how they're sharing their faith. I think that's one of the things that's, that stepped out and stuck out to me about this next generation, in particular in the US is that, um.
You know, you're not had to convince to train them and go, Hey, come on, come on this summer mission with us so you can share your faith for the first time. They're being transformed by Jesus and they're sharing their faith the next day. You know, they're, they're just, yeah. It to be authentic and to let it spill out and spill over.
To their friends.
[00:09:31] Michael Martin: Wow. So much. You said there is a great encouragement on a, maybe a lighter note. We don't have to be cool. Isn't that awesome? Right. I don't consider myself cool. So No, that's really, that's really good. And, uh, so yeah, you've been, uh, a year, just a little over a year now into the role, like you said being, um, you said global president, is that the appropriate title?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So all around the world, uh, I imagine. Taking in a lot of information, lot of conversations, probably a lot of questions emerging. I'm curious, uh, if we could go behind the seal with you behind the scenes, what has been maybe one of the most challenging aspects, uh, over this past year of settling into your role?
Yeah.
[00:10:13] David Robbins: Well, you know, we love being missionaries and missionaries, cross cultures, and yet. For my family. We have not lived in another country for 20 years. Meg and I did serve overseas for a little bit in Western Europe, and we lived in New York City for five years and that's helped scratch a little itch.
We were, um, you know, raising a special needs kid and it, it limited some of our ability to go live overseas. But, um. You know, so we love crossing cultures, but it's another thing to, as you step into a role where you've lived mostly in the US with a value for crossing cultures but not embedded and, and living in the global leadership reality as God called us to this, one of the things we knew he was calling us to was to.
Uh, you know, it's a lifestyle of learning, but in particular, this first year was a deep dive of learning, and so as we've traveled, it's just been the gift of a lifetime to get to sit with a lot of our national teams and, um, you know, ask questions about what their stories are, what their callings are, what their challenges are, and their opportunities.
But there's no doubt that one of the, the challenges is okay. How do you keep listening to people's pain points and opportunities and not just get overcome with. The opportunity and go lunge after something that's not God's timing or the pain points and um, not just kind of get overburdened and stuck.
And so as a leader, just, you know, we have great leaders in place all over the world. That's a gift of getting to lead within this organization. So you trust your leaders is, and you care and shepherd for them and a lot keeps going well. But I think that's personally been a thing of just, okay, stay at the Lord's pace.
Um, yes. Don't, you know, hearing a burden or a need and, um, pain point. Don't, don't [00:12:00] rush and lunge after something and activate just out of a need to prove something. Uh, but also, okay, these are, there's real opportunities out there and, and how do we not get stuck either? Just in, um. Not trusting God for what he does want to do.
And so just communing with him amongst such a deep learning curve has probably been the biggest challenge. But yet what God keeps calling me back to is I'm with you. I'm right here. I'm holding your hand. Stay with me. Don't get ahead of me. Don't get behind me though either. And, um, you know, if you. What I know about myself is I can get ahead of the Lord sometimes, and that's been more of the challenge.
And so, but it's been great. And I, I think, um, you know, on this topic of talking about generations, you know, generations are like cultures also. They've, and it's different in different parts of the world, but they, different generations share similarities of what they've walked through. You know, this current generation that's coming into the workforce now, their digital natives, they share that around the world.
And there's similarities that our leaders are experiencing with this generation, um, entering the workforce. And so I like viewing generations as different cultures also, and it helps you relate and learn and no pain points and, and also the opportunities that are unique with their gifting of what they, they've been shaped by.
[00:13:20] Michael Martin: Yeah, I wrote that down. Generations are like cultures. Mm-hmm. That's so good. Um, I know we're headed in a minute to. Getting some wisdom on. Yeah. What does it look like in leadership to care, well to Shepherd well across multiple generations on a team. But actually I wanna pick on, pick back up on something you said earlier too about, just on that personal story with your family and, uh, you know, navigating that.
Um, it didn't occur to me until just now thinking like even within our families, multiple generations. Right? And so I think about for leaders who are listening, who. Are serving in ministry and also want to engage, engage their children well in the missions that they're on. I'm, I'm gonna lean a little bit on your family life experience here.
Yeah. What would you say, even in terms of like leading within your own family, are there some things that you and Meg have incorporated to say like, Hey, as a family, we're all in mission on this together. Like, what does it look like to even lead well in your family across generations?
[00:14:20] David Robbins: Yeah, that's good.
Well, you know, within our family we have three kids really close together, you know, 19, 17, 15, and then we have a gap when we moved to New York City and thought maybe our, alright, the Lord maybe of this is our family. And then we added, uh, one, seven years later. And so even in our own family, there's. You know, we're, how do you coach someone in college and relate to them differently?
Yeah. As their emerging adult. And then how do you with your 9-year-old, not leave him in the dust and really pay him attention that he needs and nurture him well, so there's, that's where my mind first goes. And uh, that's a ever learning process. You have different cultures there. Yeah, you do. Exactly. But when you look at 'em as a subset, [00:15:00] you know, the first thing that comes to my mind that has marked Meg and I of one just being honest about our own.
When we fall and have shortcomings or when our kids see us, our angle, our anger boil over, do we own it? I think are we modeling something that we want them to be able to live out where we have portrayed being repenting people often and surrendered and you know, they, we've moved a lot. They've had to come along our moves and one of the things that, um.
That I just feel like the Lord graced us in moments. I'm, I'm my mind's going back to when we moved from, uh, little Rock to Orlando. We weren't moving jobs, we were still with family life, but we were relocating family life to the headquarters where Cru is and co-locate in order to save some operational costs and, and whatnot.
But, um, that the kids had only moved, lived there for two years, they had finally established themselves. And my oldest, who's a verbal processor, had shut down when we told him. And, um, wow. I remember him going up the stairs and I was like, buddy, just gimme something. Like, what? What's one. Share where you're, where you're at in some way.
And he goes, dad, I don't know if I'm mad at you or I'm mad at God. All I know is I am really angry. And in that moment, which we had just told all the staff, and it was, it was a big deal. You know, we're moving this whole, a lot of people, um, it, it hit home personally in my house, what many homes amongst staff we're, we're walking through.
Yeah. Yeah, and God gave me the grace in that moment not to try to have the perfect answer or have it all together or come back with a response that will make him feel good. But just to say. I'm so glad you were honest. Thank you for telling me anger that makes so much sense. And Guy can handle all, all your anger.
He wants you to bring it to him. And I'm gonna pray that I can too. I want you to keep being honest with me. Just don't close up, you know? And he went up the stairs and that began a journey of him being able to process honestly. And so, um. There's many other times where he went up the stairs and I raised my voice too loud and there's, you know, other, we, I had to apologize, not just say the right thing.
So, uh, I think owning repentance is a cross generational leveling at the cross that helps us connect with our kids in really deep ways. Um, side note though, there is research that we tapped into. That there was a study done of not guaranteeing anything here, but um, when it comes to kids that mer emerge into adults and continue to walk with Jesus and they come from Christian homes, you know, schooling and, uh, church types and all different types of studies.
Nothing was much, was very conclusive except one of the data points that rose to the surface were families that served it together in some way, served in mission on some way together. That doesn't have to be overseas. It can be in your neighborhood or in a local city need that you have. Um, but. Getting out of a comfort zone.
Serving [00:18:00] together was one of the most consistent things, and I think it points toward people living out in authentic faith. And, um, even though we're imperfect, let's go do something to, to live for a story bigger than ourselves. But, uh, that shaped that. When we saw that data point that was already on our heart, but that really shaped how we intentionally planned mission trips and serving opportunities amongst our family.
[00:18:21] Michael Martin: Wow. Thanks for sharing that. What a story and such wisdom. I think of there towards the end, what you're sharing about. It's very in line with what Jesus said of like going two by two or you know. Mm-hmm. Multiply that depending on how big your family is. But just that idea of kind of doing it together. Um, so thanks for those reflections, you know, on your family.
And then yeah, maybe shifting to, uh, leadership of your team as well. 'cause it sounds like there's a lot of transferable wisdom there between. Leading within family, leading within your team. If you were to take a step back, Dave, and just think, I believe you said earlier at Cru, uh, staff across, you know, five different, uh, generations and all those, if you had to quickly say, um, within those categories, um, and you don't have to be super specific about each one.
Mm-hmm. But just in general, what would you say looking at those generations, big picture, like how do they approach. Life, how do they approach ministry? 'cause I think that's a great foundation for maybe some of the other things we need to wrestle through.
[00:19:20] David Robbins: Yeah, that's good. Well, I will give a few descriptors on each that come to my mind.
But, um, there's this quote by Dr. Elizabeth Spinto. Um, she has a book on cross generational ministry that I remember I read when we were going to New York City and everybody was bashing millennials. Well, we were gonna. Go work with millennials. They were 20 somethings at the time and um, we just had a strong belief in this next generation and that God was going to work with with them.
They are the future leaders. Let's invest in them. And she said this, every generation takes for granted the good that was done before them. Reacts against the bad that was done to them and responds to the hor historical situation in which they live. Every generation takes for granted the good that was done before them reacts against the bad that was done to them, and responds to the hor historical situation in which they live, which makes, you know, generational.
Um, descriptors don't describe everybody. There's uniquenesses, you know, so I'm, I'm always pretty hesitant to actually talk about some gen generality descriptors, however that quote is, I think some of the reason why. Um, these descriptors get put and there are is some truth to it. So boomers, I think there's incredible loyalty and there's a steadiness and a grit and a long haul mentality that I am so grateful for.
Um, I'm so grateful to get, be on a team and to have been on past teams with several people in this demographic because of the loyalty and steadiness and, uh, really just grit. When it gets tough, we'll keep making it through. Um. Personality that they bring, uh, gen XI feel like there's a very [00:21:00] pragmatic and, um, you know.
I appreciate that they're, they can be a bit skeptical and just weigh it out, but then deeply committed. Once they're discerning I'm in. And so, um, you know, they're a little more skeptical of institutions and I think that's o that's okay because it brings. And it's, it's a lot of ECFA work. It Alright, what is the authenticity here?
And That's right. And the real thing here. So it's a, it's a beautiful thing and yet they're, so when they get in, they're all in. And I'm, I'm so grateful for that. Um, some of my peers, millennials, um, shout out Gen X. There we go. Here we are. Michael. We are. Yeah. Are you Gen X? You seem younger than Gen X. I'm millennial.
I think I'm in your next category. I was like the way you said that. I'm like, you're not a Gen X though. Yeah, I just was picking
[00:21:45] Michael Martin: up on your
[00:21:45] David Robbins: shout out there. All right. There you go. Millennials. I love how there's such deep purpose in. What they seek to do. They're collaborative, which I love about them. I'm an overly collaborative leader.
At times that can become a weakness, but man, millennials are there for it and they love it and um, they are restless for authenticity. That's a word I've said to many times already so quickly. But I think millennials and my time in New York made that be something. They will sniff it out in 2.2 if something is fake or not.
Ath not authentic. And so, um, I'm so thankful for that Gen Z. Um, you know, they've now entered the workforce and there's enough, I think, impression and data there to say there is a bold curiosity of what could be. Mm-hmm. They're bold in their convictions, just as we were talking about earlier. They, they'll, they do evangelism.
No, pro don't, let's don't blink, let's go. You know? Um, I'm so grateful. There's this spirit spiritual curiosity that is real. And they're eager for cause in community. Um, you know, and that spills over from millennials some, and they're valued for col collaborative. But, um, yeah, I really appreciate about that, about them.
And then, you know, gen Alpha, um, we have 'em in our homes and, um, you know, the digital native natives from birth, but also surprisingly, I think what I. Pick up on to be so digital. They're, they want embodied community and I think there's something to tap into as they enter the workforce, uh, soon. Is that there?
There's a little more, yes. It's like they see the unhealth of the generations before them and their addicted parents in some ways, and they're like, Hmm, it's more than just, let's go touch grass. It's a, um, yeah. Digital serves. Serve some purposes, but I want tactile experiences and embodied community in a pretty profound way.
I, I'm hopeful for what they'll bring as they have observed their older siblings and parents react to digital me, you know, advances just coming on them. Um, yeah, I, I'm gonna be intrigued by that.
[00:23:49] Michael Martin: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. Thank you for that. I think a lot of strengths there that we can call out, um mm-hmm.
And really kind of finding the, the best in each other. Maybe looking at it from [00:24:00] the standpoint of. Maybe more the challenging side, right? Like what are some of the, the tensions that you see at times, uh, leading across generations? And, uh, big word here at ECFA is trust. Uh, i, I do think there's, uh, that business principle organizations move at the speed of trust.
And so what are some of the things, David, that you would say, yeah, these are friction points and maybe they're even a little bit of drainers on trust that we need to watch out for.
[00:24:27] David Robbins: Yeah, good stuff. I mean, I think when it comes to the, um, foundation for where issues rise, the quickest communication and pace of change, there's just differences that generations bring to those two elements, the way they prefer communication and what's authentic or not, or what's true telling enough or not, um, the pace of change.
Are we ever gonna change or this is way too much change? Um, you know, too quickly. That's where sparks fly. But the fastest trust killer is assuming the worst in each other's motives. And we see this, I mean, it's hard to have a conversation about generations and not get labels about. How bad a certain generation is, you know, and you just, I go back to that Elizabeth Spino quote, just, we all come from a cultural context that's shaping us in dignity and depravity and, um.
There's such opportunity if, if leaders slow down to listen well and to be able, it takes more time to navigate and to listen well to about different generations and why certain forces are coming at you in the way that they are. But, um, God sees uniquely and knows the stories and periods of times each people have walked through.
And, um, yeah, I just watch. So much, just assuming the worst GT Smith and, uh, courage and Calling has one of my favorite quotes on, he says, those who bemoan the next generation shortcomings grow more and more bitter, angry, disappointed, and cynical. On the other hand, those who bless not only grow old with grace and joy, they have a disproportionate influence on the generation that follows.
And I, I remember moving to New York, which was a long time ago now. I mean, it was over a decade ago. Working with millennials in my, we were having to double our support raising when we were moving to New York City to live inside the city and minister happy people over to our home to 20 somethings. And it was a continual conversation.
What, you know, like, aren't you going to make 'em straight? Uh, what are you gonna do about this? And how bad they are. And I, you know, it's so tempting. I was reading a recent book on generations, um, that I won't share which one it is, but it was amazing to me how. Every generation, but Gen Z had positive and negative, um, traits, and then Gen Z, every single one was negative.
And I'm just going, haven't we learned anything yet? No. They're gonna bring a, they've been shaped by the cultural forces that have happened in their time and things they've walked through, and they're gonna bring great things to the table and we need to invest [00:27:00] in them. And so, um, yeah, it's assuming the worst and then not choosing to invest in the next generation.
Becomes one of the biggest trust killers you, we start protecting. We stop risking to, to hand over real challenges and task to the next generation and stretch them to grow. Um, yeah, those are some of the things that I see affecting us the most. That's good. You've given us some
[00:27:23] Michael Martin: homework. Um, okay. Bless.
Bless and not, uh, bemoan. And, uh, I think too, David, about something you shared earlier that. To me it feels like the opposite of assuming the worst about others is actually owning your own repentance. Like, I appreciate you sharing that in your family context. Like I think that's true. Uh, yeah, whether that's on teams or otherwise, like as we're re, you know, working, uh, together across generations to, to own repentance, that feels like the opposite
[00:27:54] David Robbins: because we are going to.
Botch it. You know, we're gonna mess up. I'm gonna say something that my, you know, gen Xer mind is so convinced of, and, uh, there's learning that I need and I'm, I'm gonna miss someone by responding with maybe a little too much spiritual platitude if I've just operating out of how I grew up and yet I've, I've grown a lot, but that still comes out and, um, it minimizes what people are really walking through.
That's one thing that I've had to learn, you know, and, um. I'm, I'm grateful for that. But yeah, I, to your point, when we joke, okay, boomer, if a younger person's, you know, joking around about boomers and classify 'em that way, or when someone makes an offhand comment in our teams around, you know, someone, you know, a Gen Z or showing up late for work again.
Okay, there's some true grace and truth conversation to have there, but how are we even showing up in repentance and going, Hey, that's, that's not cultivating trust at all, and I'm gonna own that. Uh, that, that becomes, everybody sees it and so when we see it and repent of it, um, it creates a gospel rich environment and saturated environment in our teams, which becomes potent.
[00:29:06] Michael Martin: Yeah, it sure does. And uh, hey, this podcast is not a con confession time, but I think there is power in what you were just saying and mm-hmm. Um, we're gleaning a lot of wisdom from things that have gone well. Um, things that you've applied that have been fruitful, their Cru and reaching, uh, working together across generations.
But if you'd be willing, I'd just love to even hear, hear. Has there been. A particular misstep or an example of times where you're like, ah, in hindsight, in the rear view mirror. Wish I'd have done that differently. Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:39] David Robbins: In particular around generations. Yeah. There's so many I could do. Relates to the
[00:29:42] Michael Martin: generations.
Sorry. In general, it should have been more, more specific on that. That's, yeah.
[00:29:47] David Robbins: You know, I chuckle, but probably, I'll jump to a second, but it's worth just 30 seconds on, um, when I'd worked with college students in 20 somethings and then we took the role at Family Life. Um. Working with [00:30:00] marriages and families, which we growing up in new, I mean, uh, living in New York City doing ministry just saw how it is such an open ground for evangelism and discipleship conversations with people that do not know Jesus, you know, um, they care about their family and they care about their marriage.
And so anyway, it was a, it's a great platform for the gospel, but um, we go to family life. I go in month one, go to the family life cruise, and uh, it's a audience. I have not spoken to people over 30 except for in a church, you know, raising support. And I whiffed so hard. I mean, it was one of those you don't know your audience, and let me declare it to you in front of, you know.
3000 people on this cruise ship, uh, on this marriage enrichment ship. I, my talk was on how your marriage can actually impact the next generation and to not assume the worst it was actually doing this podcast. Well, you know that GT Smith quote, I was, went to my notes on this talk in order to pull that quote.
And I just remember knowing in the moment, I mean, one of my. Heroes of the faith, uh, that's alive. Paul David Tripp was in the audience. He had spoken the night before and I'm just failing in front of him and I'm going, you know what? I didn't know my audience. And so it was one of those generational misses that I did not repeat.
Again, I, I, I deep dive learned a little bit. It just wasn't the time or place. They're on a cruise wanting to invest in their marriage, not necessarily be challenged to view their kids in a different way. So, uh, it's still a good talk. I did it at other venues, but not that one again, but. Similar environment of I came into family life and, um, you know, what I knew was there was a, um, took the role of Dennis Rainey, which was a four decade founder, uh, you know, step in with incredible legacy and phenomenal respect for all that had been built.
I mean, it, it truly is, is amazing. Still is amazing. And, um, but I did have this. Knowledge. We, and the board, even when they hired me, was talking about how do we not just go from radio primarily when it comes to the content we put out with Family Life today a, a daily, um, show to how do we step into digital spaces better and into video?
And I think I as leading different generations and certainly, um, it skewed older at the time and part of me getting hired was to help. Bring in future generations to care for the future generations of families. And it's been fun to see some of that transformation. But as I entered that world, one of the biggest mistakes I did was, um, I led boomers with a lot of vision, a lot of current reality and like stats to show where we're at and or where we're missing and desired future.
But there was an opportunity to be more specific with milestones. And I, I, you know, not necessarily directive you need. I'm, I'm not an expert in the podcast, in the video space, but yet I knew some of the milestones [00:33:00] that I thought we needed to hit and I just kind of kept talking vision and want, surely this will change minds.
And I'm like, they're loyal, they're steady, they're, they want speci, you know, let's get in a room and talk specifics. Hmm. And I was a little fearful too, 'cause I, I wanted to keep respecting, I wanted to defer, um, I didn't wanna do things too quickly. And then, you know, scale all the way down to millennials, which was the youngest in the workforce at the time when we were doing this.
Um, I likely gave them false hope without empower, empowerment. I talked a lot of vision, but didn't put people in roles until three years into this, you know, kind of transformation we were trying to go through. So the whole organization kind of, we didn't get stuck, but we got frustrated ah, because. You know, little battles like, are we gonna put video, you know, cameras in the studio.
I like that. Go on way too long. There were principles of why they didn't have it in the studio and what it may, uh, cost. The authenticity of a, a face-to-face conversation when everyone knows your own. But I just, I knew we have got to cross this threshold and I let that go on way too long. I could have been a decisive leader and, um, and lead a a little more, um, yeah, with real milestones of when we're gonna hit it and why.
And so I think for me, I look back and I go, there was a respect for history and legacy, and I wanted to. Be wise, uh, you know, taking a role of a founder and, and doing this well, there were, there were donors that give through those means with radio that I wanted to honor and, and make sure we don't lose unnecessarily, just 'cause a young guy in here trying to have his way.
But I think I, deep down I knew some things and I was operating outta fear and so it's never good as you go to. Work with different, all five generations in the workforce right now when a leader starts getting fearful and just not being clear about what really the Lord's been clear on. I'm so grateful for, you know, putting, um, a boomer shepherd in that, in the seat over that team to steward the process and go, here's what I need.
But it took me way too long to get there and he shepherd the team so well, and, and brought, um, different generations on, uh, while keeping people that have, you know, faithfully served in that space. But yeah, I look back and I go, my fear. Operating with generations being inserted into an environment, wanting to respect legacy and whatnot, um, I was too slow and I care about trust and change management.
Yeah. And I ended up losing trust because I wasn't clear. Yeah.
[00:35:27] Michael Martin: Hey David. I can relate to that. I think we can all relate to that. Um, so thank you for sharing that. Mm. I was just putting myself too in the shoes of, uh, your story of giving that talk at the cruise. That's another one of those. I think we've all been there before.
We're in a moment. You're just feeling Wow, like I'm off. Something's off here. Yeah. I'm curious if we could go back to that. How did you handle that in the moment? Uh, do you feel like you handled it well? Mm-hmm. Is there anything we can all learn from, Hey, being in a real life moment where Yeah. Whether it's [00:36:00] talks across generations or whatever it may be.
Mm-hmm. Um, any lessons learned from that experience that would be helpful?
[00:36:08] David Robbins: I mean, it bothered me. I wanna say that loud and clear. So as I, you know, I don't wanna be Pollyanna, um, I, I went, it was a hard sleep that night. Just going, I, how did I miss that bad? I, and then as I reflected on it, I just was like, of course, like I'm learning.
As a leader. Yes, and I, I am in a new space. This is my year one. This is totally different audiences. God has invited me into this step of faith. He's still got it. The Cru still went great. No one, you know, I can chuckle with a few people, but people remembered Paul David trips talk, not mine, you know, like everybody was All right.
Um, yeah. What was interesting though when I reflect back on it and you circling back to that is, uh, two weeks prior I was speaking with the weekend remember speaker team, so that's the family life we can remember speaker team, which is. Entrenched in family life. I've been on board for a long time. A group of leaders, pastors, uh, ministry leaders and, and some business people.
But all in, on that space, that's is why I gave the talk. I gave that talk and it was like, this is what we need. This oh my word, you're, yes, you, you are the right man for the job. You know, whether you like it or not, people are evaluating that. And, um, in your first few months. It went so well. I just copied and pasted and I didn't think about the people that I was with.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I, it was like, Ooh, deposit in. It went well, let me copy and paste that. That'll go good again. And so I didn't think about people and I, uh, that I was speaking to, um, with sufficiently. Also, I just think. When we can laugh at ourselves, it's really good and it builds trust when we're able to be open and honest with our teams and able to laugh at ourselves.
The entering the theater, there's like these posters that get put up each night of who's speaking that night. I actually. For the sake of the nuns, which the religious nuns is what is what that that was what that talk was called On again, marriage cruise, missing the mark. I put that poster in my office in kind of a tucked away corner.
Not that I would see it every day, but just that reminder of he's still with me. You know, when you fail, you fail forward. You keep learning, and if dependence is the goal. Upon, you know, depending upon God's the goal, then weakness is actually an advantage. Second Corinthians 12 says that our powers made perfect in his, in our weakness and his grace is sufficient for us and his, his power ushers through us when we're weak.
And so when I'm weak, then I'm actually strong. And that was one of those moments to own up with, oh man, I got some things to learn. And then to, I didn't put that poster up to shame myself, but to remind myself, keep being a learner, just 'cause one thing went well. You know, keep thinking about your audience and the people that you're with, not just a talk you feel good about.
And, um, yeah, [00:39:00] it, it, it continues to shape me. It's one of those core memories that I wasn't thinking about talking about. Uh, I love that. Yeah.
[00:39:06] Michael Martin: I love that. I appreciate you sharing that. I can't think of. I can't think of another leader that I've talked with who it's like, yeah, I actually want to like keep that mo like that little memento from the time that it didn't go great.
Like, 'cause yeah, just learning to laugh at ourselves. Lean into the grace of God. Hmm. Um, so anyway, yeah. Thank, thanks so much for that. And um, I think too, David just kind of getting into. I'm sure there'll be people who are listening that also have those very like, tactical questions about things too. So you had talked earlier, like one of the friction points at times between generations is even just on simple things like communication, you know, that we take for granted.
And so, um, even down to things like, um. You know, um, I'll say like performance evaluations, people use different terms for those. But you know, like in the workplace, the evaluations of, Hey, how are you doing? What's going well? What can be improved? Like, what does the cadence of that look like for you guys?
Do you feel like you've landed it on something that's effective?
[00:40:05] David Robbins: Yeah, good question. And I think different generations want different things, right? So as you lead teams, actually we do have a standard that everyone does do, and that we require all team leaders to do. And I think there's good reasons for it.
You know, there's articles out there on Harvard Business Review of take the standard performance, you know, evaluations away and there's, there's probably good reasons, but for us leading where our strength is decentralized leadership. In, in our ministry. Um, you know, that's, that's one of the gifts that God has blessed us with that I get to step into over this last year.
And as I travel around, I'm amazed. Lord, thank you for raising up these amazing people to join this and to be a part of. Winning building and sending in the power of the Holy Spirit around the world. I mean, thank you, Lord. And so with that being the greatest strength, we do think it's needed and appropriate to have a consistent I, you know, it's not just ideal, it's what we seek to live out doesn't get lived out everywhere.
But yet everyone is expected to do a staff development cycle, where at the beginning of our fiscal year, there's a critical mission objectives conversation where the employee. Puts down his five, uh, his or her five things that, um. They're gonna focus on the most. It's not their whole job prescription.
It's the things that in this next year means the most for what this time and place means. And then, and then a personal development plan, um, oppor, you know, things that they want to grow in. There's opportunity then at that time for the leader to hear it. And we track those conversations and whether they happen or not, for the leader to meet with the person, hear their perspectives, um, they can give developmental assignments if they want to help a person grow.
In the areas that they want to grow in or that they see needed to grow in. There's a mid-year check-in that gets documented, and then there's an end of year evaluation where, um, you know, I think what I appreciate about most of our [00:42:00] leaders and the culture of how we coach, coach people, we want people's character more than their competence to be developed.
Like if, if characters growing deep and integrity is there, and rhythms of life to sustain and abide, are there, then. Uh, competence, you know, is good and performance is why we're doing this, but yet we care more about that and it will flow from that place. And I, I appreciate how we're our, our leadership development and human resources team coach toward that end.
So, um, I'm grateful for that. But those aren't the only meetings and so we encourage touch points of, you know, at least monthly of a team leader and someone on a team. And I know for a fact, you know, millennials and Gen Z, they're like, yes, this big conversations we have three times a year, but I want.
Consistent feedback. Yes. Give me right short form, give me consistent. And I think we all want that. Really. It's never fun to go into these big three conversations and be hearing things you haven't heard. So that's a principle we seek to live out. Um, not saying we do that perfectly across the board, but yet as you think about d different generations, um, team leaders asking their people on their team, Hey.
You know, we have these three conversations and we meet weekly or monthly for some, um, in an ideal way it's weekly, but, uh, you know, how do you want to stay encouraged to what you, what you put down is most important. How do you wanna circle back to that? How do you want me to check in? Um, getting their feedback.
You're gonna have your own preferences as a leader. And you can't tailor, tailor made to every person. However, hearing that feedback helps you care for that person and, and truly shepherd according to their needs, not just how you prefer to do it. And I think, um, you know, if you're, if you're leading 10 people, then it's worth doing that and to adapt in the ways you can to meet them where they are.
Yeah. It is work, but it's worth it. Mm-hmm.
[00:43:58] Michael Martin: For sure. Yeah. I'm curious too, how do you. Incorporate character. You mentioned character and competence. Mm-hmm. Um, I know that could be like maybe character at times feels a little nebulous or it's, it's hard to put our, our arms around that. Um, what have you guys found to encourage character as well?
Yeah.
[00:44:17] David Robbins: Well, I'll say I. You know, one of the things we implemented in Family Life, um, you know, which is about 600 staff, so you can implement that a little differently than now being in a global role and, you know, speaking to 190 nations about what they should do. You, you want local leaders knowing their culture and con context.
You, you lead in principles and you help them do it. But, um, you know, one of the things we did in Family Life was use Pete Scazerro's one-on-one meeting framework from Emotional Healthy Leadership, which, you know, ask about. Um, your own personal walk with the Lord, not, and, and I think you gotta be very careful not to make it this accountability punitive thing of a particular mark, but [00:45:00] just Okay.
What's, how is the vibrancy of your walk with Jesus? Life is hard family stuff for those who have families, you know, crash in or caring for an elderly parent, you know, like. In the busyness of it all, um, how's the connection? Are there ways we need to make space for that? Uh, you know, how is your, uh, closest relationships and if you're single, what are those, um, closest relationships with your family and friends?
Are you having life giving channels if you do have kids, you know, you adapt according to someone's stage of life and, and who they are. Um. Yeah. And then it, you can, we can go look it up, but there's, there's four or five questions that are suggested. I never hit that every time, but yet, and you know, you gotta create safe spaces where people would be honest.
And the number one way to do that is to disclose yourself when your rhythms are out of whack and you create space for them to create to, to say similar things. Not in a manipulative way, but just being honest. Um, and I think as leaders. People want to hear from their leaders, what, how do they navigate continuing to stay in step with the spirit and commune and abide when life is chaotic and crazy and when you don't have space for the ideal rhythms that you want in life.
And, um, yeah, people want to hear that and I think that's some of the best modeling we can do. And, and it's a way to create safety, um, as we're honest.
[00:46:26] Michael Martin: Yeah. Back to that idea of owning our repentance.
[00:46:29] David Robbins: Yeah. That's good.
[00:46:29] Michael Martin: I'm picking that up. That's good. That's a good message. Um, one other, uh, big topic that I'd love to have the opportunity to visit with you on is, uh, I think earlier you talked about.
Especially with Cru, uh, donor support and the idea of, I mean, there's just so much engagement, uh, in the model you all have and the interaction with donors. That's true for Right. So many ministries too that are part of ECFA, but I think about this idea too of, um, communicating well across generations, working well across.
And so, uh, in addition to. A lot of these lessons we've talked about in terms of leading within teams, uh, any other kind of big nuggets, key takeaways, lessons that we can walk away from as you guys think about interacting with donors. Um, because our donor base now too, is also very multi-generational.
[00:47:20] David Robbins: Yeah, for sure. I would say we are seeking to grow trying things. Hitting on some otherwise going, man, we thought that would work. I can't believe that didn't work. You know? Um, it's, it's part of the, how are you thinking about the different audiences of your donor and not just doing one size fits all, um, which takes time and capacity.
And I just wanna say, God's gonna keep providing. Let's keep being creative in the ways we can, but not, I think I can be tempted to, we've gotta make sure that we're with Gen Z and millennial, you know, um, donors since that, you know, for some organizations that are newer, that's their base and so they're prepared for this [00:48:00] moment and can teach me.
Um, and I've learned from, from some, I, I love the entrepreneurial spirit and, you know, being able to learn from them and, and trying to apply some of those principles while you care for this, um, you know, more established base that you have that's, that's real and you're so grateful for and you wanna keep communicating with them and their faithfulness in a way that they would hear.
So, um. Just going, all right, Lord, what are the ways that we can learn how to connect with future donors, um, gen Z and millennials in particular, and, and engage them, but yet, no, we can't. Dis, you know, shut off things that we do that we know meets the need of, of donors that have been around for 20 years.
And so that balance of allocating staff and resources to communicate well to different audiences that are in your, in your donor base, um, that's the discernment. We have to try new things to communicate effectively and well to the rising generation of donors. If not, then we all know where that will go in about 15 years, you know, like that.
There's a real reality to that. However, I just think. It can get overwhelming that you feel behind or, or we're, we're missing the ball. And you'll talk to a new ministry that's been around for five years and it's going gangbusters among 20 somethings. And you're going, how could we ever, why would this take us so long?
And I just go, that's where you stop and you say, Lord, okay, keep me in step with you. Help me discern for us what's the way you want us to. Um, you know, with, with boomers we can talk about faithfulness and legacy and they know the principles and we tell a story and it has a bucket to fit in For Gen Z and millennials, we, you know, we need to connect the direct to impact story with authenticity and not.
You know, placating and, um, it needs to be real and, and not, um, showy. You know, it, it, it, it needs to have an earthiness to it, that it, this just happened on the ground and you're a part of it, and let me show you how your part connected to it. Um, those are two different ways of communicating, and we all have our, our finite in our resources.
So I do think it's about. Okay. Seeking the Lord and not throwing any baby out with a bath, bath water. Not ignoring something that's coming and just going, God, what steps do you want us to take? And that's the discernment of it.
[00:50:18] Michael Martin: Yeah, I appreciate what you said there too, David, about um. Sort of running our race, um, being obedient to what God has called us to do, to, I dunno, stay in your lane if you will.
Uh, but at the same time, I have to imagine, like you said too, whether it's through conversations with other ministries or thing, you're just, things that you're just sort of, um, zooming out and taking a look at like, Hey, what's happening across industry or business, whatever it may be. I'm curious, like, are there other.
Outside sources or places where it's like, hey, while we are called to kind of run our own race, we're gleaning some wisdom, inspiration, you know, whatever it may be. 'cause like you said, it is kind of a [00:51:00] moving target, so. Mm-hmm. What are you guys using? I guess my question is, um, some of those. Outside sources of wisdom in order to engage well across generations.
[00:51:11] David Robbins: Yeah. You know, speaking frankly, I would say, um, from a global president's seat, each nation, one of our main desires is that as many nations as possible would grow in sustainable funding that, um, you know. Nations are crisscrossing the globe. There are many centers of mission, not just a few in the West and South Korea that have the resources to, to send to other places.
And so I just wanna say some of the. The best learning you can do is finding leaders from other nations with less resources and seeing their creativity. I am amazed. Love it. Yeah. It's so encouraging and it's not the typical outlet that I have been going to, but being in this new role, I, it's been amazing to get to have that learning purview.
Um. You know, I, and then we, there's development teams on different ministries that are a part of the Cru, uh, you know, family of Ministries, and each one I think, knows their audiences well and at Family Life. There were other like ministries that we got to. Do life with and to ask questions with, and there were always newcomers on the scene with Jesus film project.
There's, you know, there's a whole unreached and unengaged and translating space where there's a whole other family of ministries there, athletes in action. Similar, I think getting in your family, in your stream of ministries and finding, you know, for ministries that have been established for a while. You usually are, are sitting with others that have been around for a long time, what does it look like to find one or two others that you can invite in that history and into that fold, uh, that you're like, okay, they got something going on.
And then learning from them where they're going. Guys, you we're, we're not trying to steal your ideas, but you're, you're doing things for the kingdom in a fresh way that, um, yeah. Would, would you share? You know, and I just think. And when I think about the different leaders we have and how they're learning best, I don't know that I have any make a list to put in the show notes of places to go more than you have relationships God's already given you.
If you're a leader in a ministry, in church space and who's around you, and if you're one that's been around a while, how can you actually invite some newcomers to the space? 'cause they're having to think about it differently in the same way that nations are having to be scrappy and think about it differently.
And all I know is. I've learned a lot when having those type of conversations.
[00:53:39] Michael Martin: No, that's gold. Look, uh, be open to looking in unexpected places, I think. Mm. Yeah. That's good. Well, David, there's been so much wisdom that we've, uh, gleaned from our time with you, and just as I think about kind of wrapping it up here, so being behind the seal, you know, the just tr making a connection here to E CFA's mission, you know, the seal is all [00:54:00] about, uh, enhancing trust.
But we say around here too, it's not just. Enhancing trust for the sake of enhancing trust, but it's enhancing trust so that the churches and ministries that we serve can more effectively reach the world for Christ. And so I think about so much of the work of Cru, this conversation about reaching across generations, and I wanted to ask you specifically about this topic and just the connection to the gospel.
Um, why is it so important that ministries do cross communication work together with other generations well for the sake of the gospel? Why is it important for that?
[00:54:38] David Robbins: The first thing that comes to my mind is just that Jesus took up residence amongst us. He incarnated into this world in order to relate to us in a way that would truly change the course of the rest of our lives, and as we represent him and our ambassadors of him and his death and his resurrection.
And the beautiful gospel that we get to represent and the, the healing and, and the holistic nature that can flow out of that, of a, of a life abundant. Um, we get to do what he did. We get to model our lives around him to take up a residence amongst the place we find ourselves now. And so that can translate into how do I, you know.
Being, maybe stretching a theological term too far here, incarnate into someone else's mind frame and life to reach their heart and soul. When it comes to another generation, and in particular, I would say, what, what, as you ask the question, what gets put on my heart as we walk into rooms and you go, who will be this room in 2050?
Who will be in here and how can I play a part in helping take up residence with some of those people? And you know. We're not being Jesus to these people. We're helping them fall in love with Jesus more. Be in it for the long haul. Develop as leaders in, give them stretch roles, coach them along the way where there's a next generations believed in.
And that we get to say, Hey, soon, sooner than I thought. Come on, take this role. Um, that I think it's one of these. Yeah. As a Gen Xer, circling back to that, another shout out. Uh, I'm, you know, we're the smallest generation alive right now, and there's this bridge from Boomer to millennial. And then I would even say to millennial and Gen Z, 'cause of the spiritual vibrancy coming in Gen Z.
Uh. I, I kind of see myself in a bridge situation where there is a handoff happening. You're seeing it happen in lots of ministries that have been established and well known. And, um, I represent one of those in both Family Life and in Cru in Campus Crusade for Christ International. And in that, you just go, okay, Lord, how do you help me see?
And, and would you do a favor and would you let me notice the people that will be taking your kingdom, uh, to [00:57:00] places in 2050? Help me see them. Help me develop them and be a part of their story. Yeah.
[00:57:06] Michael Martin: Well, David, we hear that and I'm here today to say. You're doing it well, so keep up the good work. Thanks so much. This has been a joy.
[00:57:13] David Robbins: Thanks, Michael. So fun to get to talk with you, man. Thanks for all you do.
[00:57:17] Michael Martin: Yeah, you too. Appreciate it. Thanks David.
[00:57:21] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for The Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.