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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 29 (Heather Gorman & Mark Nelson)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
Today I'm joined by Heather Gorman and Mark Nelson who recently co authored Lunchroom Theology, Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World. Heather is a professor of New Testament at Johnson University and author of Interweaving Innocence, a rhetorical analysis of Luke's passion narrative, as well as numerous journal articles and essays on the Gospels, Acts, Ancient Rhetoric, and Reception History.
Mark is the executive director of Three Rivers Collaborative and co author of Reformation, Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Re Enchanted Frames with Alan Hirsch. Mark is the founding pastor of Crossings, a faith community 15 years.
So thanks for joining me today.
Mark Nelson: Thanks for having us, Andrew. Yeah. We're excited to be with you.
Andrew Camp: [00:01:00] Yeah. So how did the two of you sort of come together to write this new book of yours?
Mark Nelson: Uh, we have, uh, we have been a part of the same faith community, uh, crossings, a church that I planted back in 2007 when Heather and her family moved to town, they became a part of our church and, uh, she serves in leadership in different roles and, and, uh, and now we're both actually employed by Johnson university.
So, so yeah, we've known each other for a dozen years at least.
Heather Gorman: Yeah, absolutely. And the Mark was the idea man behind the book. Um, and we had done some teachings together on what became some of the content in the book, especially on the book of acts in this image of, um, the high school lunchroom was really compelling and it kind of like just took on a whole life of its own from there.
And as we thought about it more, it very much seemed like a project that needed to be collaborative. Uh, the whole premise is [00:02:00] kind of coming together. And so it felt like the whole book would be better. Harder sometimes, but I think ultimately better by having two authors.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. And what do you, when you say it was a better project, or it was a better project because it was collaborative, what, what is that you both bring that is unique?
To this project.
Mark Nelson: It's, it's a nice set of giftings when you think about it. Uh, I've been in pastoral ministry for 37 years. Uh, Heather has, uh, been a professor for how many years, Heather?
Heather Gorman: 12 years. So I've spent my whole career basically in the academy, which don't, if anybody listened to the bio, don't judge this current book by how Andrew described my past publications.
Those were scholarly ones, but it's very much written for a lay everyday audience. And that's really important to us. Um, but yeah, so we come from kind of different backgrounds, both with a deep commitment to the church. I believe, um, we are male and female, a little older and a little [00:03:00] younger, um, and just kind of different experiences and so different ways of looking at the world where we can say like, Oh, about that, or what about that?
And so I think ultimately at the end of the day, because we are bringing some different perspectives to this, I mean, that's what we're, we tried to model. Our thesis and the way that we wrote the book.
Mark Nelson: Yeah. And we both, I mean, we both have this passion for Jesus and for the church in that order. And it is really important to have the correct order in that.
And, and it's that passion that led to this and we saw that we could work well together. And it is a much better book that we wrote together that we would have individually. I really believe that.
Andrew Camp: No, that's awesome. And so you said that the guiding metaphor for your book is this lunchroom where you This high school lunch room, right?
Yep. Um, and so as we begin, I want to pause for our listeners. As you're listening to this, I want you to stop and think about your high school lunch area. [00:04:00] So if you even need to pause the podcast for 30 seconds, five minutes, but take time to reimagine what that high school area was like for you.
What groups do you see? Are you inside? Outside? Um, Are you part of a clique? Which clique are you part of? Could you go between cliques? Um, and so really just, Immerse yourself in this image as we talk about this podcast because this book is based in this high school lunchroom idea. And so I think it's important to visualize this because I think it will give more substance and more, um, texture to this conversation.
And so Just take a few minutes just to think about that. Um, we're going to continue the conversation, but, you know, I would encourage you just to, to think about your high school area. Like what emotions come up for you? What are you, you know, feeling? You know, for some of us, high school was a great experience.
For others of us, it was an experience we couldn't wait to get out of. [00:05:00] Um, but I think it does guide this conversation a lot. So, um, Yeah. Listeners, just take time to think about your high school experience at lunch. And so, as we continue this conversation, what does actually the high school lunch arena have to do with Christian theology and Christian identity?
Mark Nelson: Well, I, first of all, I'd like to apologize for the listeners that did really consider what their lunchroom experience was like. And we do not offer to pay for counseling, but we understand that many of us need that because of our experiences. Um, it just seemed to me It's a, it's an image, a metaphor that has stuck in my head, I bet for almost a decade that when I look at the world and our divisions, yes, but just our separations of, of by, by, uh, you know, ethnicity, by economic, by education, of course, geography, that seems natural.
But denominationally, when [00:06:00] you talk about the church, all of these types of divisions, to me, I don't know, I was overwhelmed by this metaphor of the lunchroom, that everybody's sitting at their own table and nobody wants to get any closer to the other. And I was like, that's exactly, my high school is one of those, like, just.
It was huge, I didn't like it, it wasn't like super traumatic, it just wasn't enjoyable for me and a lot of that had to do with the divisions that were there. And so when I thought about this world, this image was dominant for me and it seemed to make total sense that the world we live in really is just one big high school lunchroom and we're all just trying to survive and make sure we find our way to the right table at some point.
Heather Gorman: And to connect that back to kind of why we're writing, um, we are very much writing for the church. Um, we, we want the church to, um, be at its best because the church is, you know, called to extend the kingdom of God. Uh, but the church hasn't always been [00:07:00] at its best. Uh, now there might be some of your listeners who are churchy stuff here.
I think we are also trying to write for those who are on the margins of the church or who have been burnt by the church. Uh, we all have complicated, complex relationships. Um, but at the end of the day, the church doesn't get to say, oh, well, we don't act that way. It's just the world. Unfortunately, in the church, we have our own lunch tables and, and whether that's Denominationally or over, you know, your Calvinist and I'm Arminian, or you're Complimentarian and I'm Egalitarian or pi, sms, um, out there and, and we separate.
And I want to state clearly that we are not saying in this book that those differences don't matter that whatever theology you believe is just fine. That's not what we're saying, but we are saying that this idea of pushing these tables together is the way that we can actually have good. I'll be at hard conversations and that's where, um, I think that this, the spirit of God meets us and we can transcend some of these [00:08:00] divisions.
Um, and so I, I don't want to. Think that the church is off the hook in the ways of the, like the kind of lunchroom culture. Um, in fact, it's, it's very much complicit and that's what we're trying to address.
Mark Nelson: And we're also not saying that to sit at the same table means you become like the people you sat with.
Sameness is not the goal. It's living in our differences. It's living in our ideological, racial, economic, all those different, all those different things that make us distinct and understanding that we all are created in the image of God regardless of all those differences. So sameness and, and same thinking.
That's not what we're after. We're after living in unity in the midst of our differences.
Andrew Camp: And you're inviting a tension, a living in tension, in which you explicitly state in the early chapters that like, what we're, what you're calling the church to and Christians to embrace isn't necessarily going to be easy or smooth, but it will be this tension of [00:09:00] Like you, like you both have said, you're not calling us to sameness, but to be at a table with different people who, who hold different views and that, can we hold that tension in that space for each other, which is really important for us to recognize.
Um, and I also love, you also point out some sociological factors that really are, preventing the church, um, from embracing this. You know, for instance, the stat you pointed out that in 2016, 80 percent of U. S. counties had landslide victories for their preferred presidential candidate, which I'm like, that's mind boggling.
Like, you know, 20 percent of the election is just Or the election is decided probably by 20 percent of the U. S. counties, um, you know? And so, like, we are all in this big ideological sort of sameness, um, and, like you said, the church is probably more shaped by culture than we want to admit, um, [00:10:00] you know? And so, like, how, how have the I think these sociological factors are important and what were you seeing from these sociological factors that are preventing the church and what can the church do differently?
Heather Gorman: Yeah. The, the stuff that you quoted there, um, is, is one that originated with the research of a guy named Bill Bishop. He wrote a book called the big sort, um, and he's not a theologian, uh, he's more kind of a sociology, political stats guy that is looking at migration trends in the United States. States like since the 70s.
Um, and what he found was that because of increased economics and easier transportation and just all of these other factors, Americans, and I will say we are, we are speaking in a specific us context is that's where Mark and I are both located. But we also think many of the. Ideas and divisions are not just particular to the U S even if it feels like we are in a unique type of dumpster fire right now.
Um, but [00:11:00] in the United States that we're seeing these trends where people are moving to be with people who are like minded, um, same values, same, uh, interest in athletics, same, so all, all of these different things. And when we do that, it seems on the surface that that would be good to live around people who are like you, right?
It's going to reduce conflict theoretically. But what those studies show is not only that loneliness rates have increased the more that we have sorted, but the more that we are apart from those who are different from us, the less we understand them, right? Because we can paint with a broad brush, or we can just take whatever our preferred nude station says about them over there.
And that distance allows us to distort others which then leads to further distrust of them and so it's this kind of like massive disconnection that keeps perpetuating and then throw in some social media algorithms that just keep feeding you what you want to hear and as we've sorted ourselves sociologically, [00:12:00] that's actually led.
to more disconnection. And the same thing goes with, um, churches, right? Now it's, you don't just go to the church that's a mile from you because you can walk there. Now I can drive 30 minutes, 45 minutes to the church that gets me the music. I like the preaching style. I want the kids programs. I can do all of that.
And I'm not saying those preferences are inherently bad, but the more we do that, we are self selecting into folks who are just like us. And we're lessening our capacity to be with others in difference. We're lessening, we're getting less practice and having hard conversations. We have a lower tolerance for even being around people who are different from us.
And when I read the gospels, when I read Acts, I just think like, that's not what Jesus did. Jesus didn't just hole up in this bubble with people who, you know, believed all the same things that he did, even though that might've been comfortable. Um, but there was a recognition that we need to be going out and sharing tables with.
different folks. Um, [00:13:00] and so that I think is where it really connects with what we're seeing in the church as well. Yeah.
Mark Nelson: And those stats, um, they're not that surprising to people that it, that it's that way. I think that how high the numbers are, just like you said, Andrew was staggering to you. It's the same thing with this, the whole metaphor.
We people, we tell people, Oh yeah, our world is a big high school lunchroom. They go, Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. I never thought of it. Absolutely. We all see it. We all feel it. And, and that the depth of the sociological brokenness, the depth of the dehumanization that comes from our sorting of people is, is overwhelming and we've become numb to it.
And it's, it's, it's time to start feeling that again so that we might do something about it and do something different.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, because like you said, you would, Heather, you pointed out that you would think that this sorting of ourselves into like minded echo chambers would [00:14:00] lead to deeper belonging, but it's not.
Um. Whereas it would seem that true belonging happens when we get out of that and surround ourselves with, with people outside of our comfort zone,
Heather Gorman: which feels
Andrew Camp: counterintuitive.
Heather Gorman: It does. It feels counterintuitive. And so, in some ways, I'm sympathetic to why we do it. It makes sense. But the ways that it's showing, um, How it's actually leading to us becoming more extreme when you combine Bishop stats with something called the law of group polarization, which is if you get together with a group of people who are like minded and are like reasoning through it with them, you become more extreme on that position and that that tracks for gun ownership, affirmative action.
I mean, French views of Americans. If you're with other people who are like you, and you deliberate, you become more extreme. And so we're actually, okay. Becoming more [00:15:00] extreme by grouping with people who are like us. But then when you get ideas of like group loyalty played into that, I can't speak up because if somebody thinks that I am not towing all of this party line, I'm going to be rejected.
And then where am I going to go? And so you have all of these kind of dynamics that are at play and what might seem intuitive, like, Oh, if you get with people who are like you, it'll all be better off. It's actually showing that that's not the case.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. You know, and this all leads to dehumanization, right?
Like where we're all, like you said, you know, we're, it's easy to stiff arm, the other side, it's easy to say bad things, um, you know, and so, you know, don't want to belabor this point. I want to get to the good stuff. Cause you know, but I love, you have this chapter in between, you know, after you've talked about the forces that are leading us apart, um, and you do touch on sandwiches, you know, that all of this sociological factors, you know, Deal with sin at this right, but you bring up Roy Kent, um, from Ted Lasso, um, [00:16:00] you know, and this question is change possible.
And so like, is change possible? Like, is there a better way? Like, are, are, or do we just need to blow it all up and like figure out a new and completely different way?
Mark Nelson: Yeah, I, you mentioned Ted Lasso. I think we, we believe that's what the entire series of Ted Lasso. And, and if your listeners have not watched that, now's the time to pause the podcast too and go listen, go watch that entire series and then come back.
Heather Gorman: Don't forget to come back.
Mark Nelson: But we believe, I think that entire series is about that question. Can people change? Can we evolve and can we grow? And I think we, I think we can absolutely. We are thoroughly convinced of that. And also I think that growth for each of us looks differently too. There's a quote that we use in the first chapter, I believe, uh, from, uh, [00:17:00] David Brooks is talking about that.
We're walking in shoes too small for ourselves that we were made for more than this. We, we can do better. And that involves believing that we can change. That involves believing that it's never too late to be what we might become. That involves, uh, Taking Jesus seriously when he says, look, I think you can do this.
I'm praying for you to do this. My followers, the world needs to believe and they're going to believe by the way you do this. So, so we do, we absolutely believe change is possible. If we believe the words of Jesus, he called us to a turnaround. He called us to, he said, look, the kingdom of God is here right now.
Believe this, turn from that way and go this way because this is a Good news. This is gospel. This will, this will change the world. And again, we're not asking people to change at the same rate or change in the same way. Again, we're not looking for sameness, but there's this idea of, of the [00:18:00] theology of clicks is what it's called, where we all enter at one place.
And if you have a continuum of A to Z, we all come in in a different spot. And so some people may come into this discussion around B or C. And if, if they simply get to D or E, that's wonderful growth, that's wonderful change. Some people come in at Q and R and, and they need to go to S and T. And, and so if you look at this as a continuum, we're all just looking to make some moves, but yes, absolutely change is possible.
Roy Kent is right. Change is possible to answer his question. It is true. And we can evolve and grow into this. And it's this. It's this ridiculous idea that what we know, that all we know is all there is, makes us think we can't change. No one is arrogant enough, Andrew, to say, all I know is all there is, but yet when we look at how we approach life, how we approach gaining knowledge, how we approach change, I think sometimes we live arrogantly by [00:19:00] saying, look, all I know is all there is, and this is it.
We're trying to say there is a heck of a lot more and the expansiveness of God and the gospel and the story in our lives should, should push us to go. There's more. There's more. How do we get to the more? Well, we take steps towards change. And that's, that's what we're, we're simply asking people to consider in this book.
Heather Gorman: And I would add to that, like, I think most people, well, actually, I don't know if that's the case. I would add to that, that. We would answer the question, can people change with a resounding? Yes. I think a different question is, will people change? Uh, and that one is maybe something that's harder to, to have confidence in.
And so I think, as I think about this whole book project, the hundreds, thousands of hours spent going into writing and brainstorming and editing. I think for me, that was. And exercise and hope in saying, like, no, I believe not just that we can, but that maybe we will. And not that this book is going to [00:20:00] change the world, but it's an attempt to give folks some ideas of how to make that change happen.
Because it's not going to be, it's not going to be the government that changes us. I think it's small people doing small things that can, can lead to this. We actually spent. Um, a month or so working with a local church in our area, talking through some of the ideas in this book. And I left that just thinking, like, these folks give me so much hope.
And these are folks I met at that study. I didn't know them in the past, but hearing the ways that. A homeschool mom is trying to make change in her context or the retired grandma, uh, in the things that she's doing or the professor at the local university. And it was just like all of these folks. It's like, if we each are willing to turn the dial a little bit, that really can amount to something.
And I, and I think what we can't forget is that God equipped us. To do this with his spirit, right? When Jesus ascended, he didn't say good luck with that. He said I am empowering [00:21:00] you and you're not supposed to start this work until you receive that spirit. And if we genuinely believe today that followers of Jesus are empowered by God's spirit among us Like, we have the ability to do this, more than just, you know, Roy can't say it in our own, I'm going to try real hard.
This isn't just a self help book. But, but if we really believe in God's empowering spirit among us, then I think, yeah, not just we can, but we will.
Mark Nelson: Yeah. And, and I know we're recording this before the election and I believe it's going out after the election. It does not matter who won. There will be people Who are mourning and there'll be people who are celebrating and more than ever just moves to find some healing Some wholeness some restoration for some of these divides Um, yes people will be mourning.
Yes People will be celebrating but there's a way to come together to say look There's a bigger picture here and especially for followers of Jesus We believe there's a bigger picture called the kingdom of God and the [00:22:00] kingdom of God is not splintered. The kingdom of God is not made up of many tables.
The kingdom of God is made up of people who say I follow this Jesus in his radical ways and that leads me together with people that may not be like me or think like I do or voted differently than I do. And again, We were made for more than this. We're walking in shoes too small for us, for ourselves. We have to find a way forward and believe it in that change, taking those small steps, like Heather said, we have to take those steps forward.
Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. And I love that phrase. We were made for more than this and walking in shoes too small, like, um, Because we do need hope, you know, and, and again, we can't wait for society to change your, you know, you're not asking in your book for society to change. You're asking the church followers of Jesus to model a better way.
And whether you're in the church or you feel excluded from the church, like, If you're a Jesus follower, Jesus calls us to a, to a different way of being than [00:23:00] the world calls us. Like the ways of the world, we did not learn from G like, you know, Jesus's ways are different than the world and how we're operating in the world is not what we see in Jesus's heart.
Um, at all,
Heather Gorman: I genuinely think that people want something different. I think that they're tired of the hopelessness they feel as they, you know, scroll on whatever media platform they are, the hopelessness that they feel with another douse, another bout of the evening news, or just, you know, Thanksgiving dinner, like, Oh boy, what's, what's going to come that, that fearfulness, even with our families.
Right. And I think people are saying like, this is exhausting. Is this all that there is? And, and I believe that there's that we might be coming to a breaking point where people are just like, I, we can't keep doing it this way, this division, this polarization, it is not sustainable. And so again, my thing is, I don't think that.
[00:24:00] Followers of Jesus are supposed to compel other people. But when I see, I read the book of Acts and I see that early Christian community. And the reason they took off is because so many people found their way of life compelling, right? They were centered around this, uh, resurrected life. That says, no matter your economic background, your ethnic background, what, no matter what language you speak, you matter here, we're going to take care of you.
Um, We're going to pull up a seat at the table for you. And I think that people were like, that's so different than all that we're seeing around us. I want to be a part of that. And I think there's a craving for that. But in some ways we lack an imagination to figure out what else it might look like. And so, so we hope that this can start to spark some imaginations and it's going to look different in every context in different cities and churches or denominations or communities.
It's, it's not a one size fits all thing, but if we can spark an imagination for how we might do this differently, I, I think people will find it really compelling. [00:25:00]
Mark Nelson: Yeah. Cause it, the early church living in, in light of the resurrection in the shadow or in the wake of the resurrection, we're still living in the wake of that same resurrection ability to make the same changes and stand out and people go, what, why do you do this?
Oh, this Jesus changed my life. Oh, this Jesus, this resurrected Lord, I just think he has a way for us to live together that's different than what we did. We all want it. We all crave it. We have to, to reject the, the, I don't know, the, the, The veiling of, of truth and the way of Jesus that is, that resembles power and structure and the political, our churches look exactly like our political structures at time.
We have to reject that and say, look, the way of Jesus, this radical way of Jesus that the early Christians follow. That the early Christians in the book of Acts, the book of Acts is 30 years, one of the things we mentioned. That basically from 28 is 30 years of time, and in that 30 years of time the world literally [00:26:00] changed.
It was like this before the resurrection, it was like this in those 30 years after. We believe in 30 years, because people go, well, it won't change in my lifetime. Most of us got maybe I don't know if I have 30 years. Let's hope I got 30 years. And I'm like, in this 30 years, I really believe the world can change.
I work with churches here in Knoxville, about 30 to 40 churches, very diverse in all ways, shape and form. And when they come and be a part of the program that I do called Three Rivers Collaborative, I say, look, all I'm asking for is this. 30 year commitment, because I believe that if we brought these churches together and over a 30 year period, if we live the radical ways of Jesus, as, as followers of Jesus who love Jesus and the church in that order, that we really could make a difference.
This is not something that will happen when we're dead and gone. This is something that could change right now. We really believe that.
Andrew Camp: I love that word of 30 years. Like it is possible. Um, And so much of your, the constructive portion of your book is centered around these, these ways of Jesus, this [00:27:00] table ideas.
You do a great job of telling the story, um, you know, and even point out Heather, you mentioned it already in this podcast of imaginative possibilities. Like, you know, you want the church to imagine something. And so as you two have looked at Jesus's table manners, table practices, um, and then continuing through acts, like what You've hinted at it, but what has stood out to you or what stands out to you about Jesus's table manners?
Heather Gorman: Um, there's a New Testament scholar, Robert Karris, his name, and he has a book called, I think it's like eating your way through Luke or something like that. One of the quotes that he says in that book is that in the gospel of Luke, which is my favorite gospel, uh, he says in the gospel of Luke, Jesus is either coming from a meal at a meal or going to a meal and Jesus is eating all the time.
And I love that about Jesus because I too love food. And so I feel really like connected to, you know, to Jesus in that way. Okay. It shouldn't be lost on us that Jesus is sitting around [00:28:00] a lot of tables He could have done ministry in the synagogues and he did some but more often when he is engaging other people It's around a table and I think Sometimes we lose sight of how transformative meals are.
And this is, I absolutely love the, the title of your podcast, Andrew, because I think it really captures the centrality of meals and tables, um, in our faith, because when we're around a table with people, we're up close with them. It's extended, right? We too often eat our meals. You know, I run through the Starbucks drive through and I eat my egg bites on the way to work.
And that's not a, and it's not an experience. It's not with other people. It's rushed. Yeah. But meals at their best are us gathering together. And when you see Jesus, he gets a reputation, right? For eating with the wrong people. He eats with sinners and tax collectors and nobody likes them, but he also eats with Pharisees.
And I think that's an important point. Some folks have a hard time imagining eating with, [00:29:00] you might call the tax collectors kind of oppressors, traitors to the people. And then you've got the sinners. Oh, I don't want to eat with those. Some other people have a harder time saying I'm going to eat with the religious folks, right?
Um, but Jesus engaged them as well. And some of his most important teachings are around a table. And I don't think that we should be lost on not just the what of theology, but the how. And I think that matters because we are up close with people for sustained periods of time around something that has united humans throughout history.
Mark Nelson: Yeah. So one of my heroes is a gentleman named Clarence Jordan, and this isn't in the book, but it's been so on my mind the last couple of weeks, Clarence Jordan, uh, was a racial reconciler in rural Georgia in the 1940s, in the 1940s, 20, 15, 20 years before Dr. King came on the scene. And one of the things, there are many things, and I could talk about Clarence Jordan all day long, but one of the things that Clarence Jordan did was he hired.
White men [00:30:00] and black men, and he paid them equally. That was not done in that culture. The other thing he did was he invited them to his home, and they sat around the same table and ate together. In that culture, in that rural part of Georgia, an African American man was not even allowed to go in the front door of a white man's home.
They had to go in the back door if they came in the house at all. And here he is paying them the same wage, inviting them to the same table and sharing a meal with them. That one of the reasons that Clarence Jordan is one of my heroes is he got his tables right. He knew who to invite, when to invite them because he did it.
And he didn't do it to be a social activist. He didn't do it to be a justice fighter or whatever phrase you want to put on that. He did it because he immersed himself in the ways of Jesus. He read the gospels voraciously and he allowed it to change his life. And so when you look at stories of the, of the new Testament, uh, when you talk about as Heather did the, the people that share the tables with Jesus, the, the, the, the Key event to us in [00:31:00] maybe some people say the absolutely most important chapter in the entire scripture.
Pete N says that is Acts chapter 10. Acts chapter 10 is where Peter sees a vision into heaven. And in that, in that vision, as the sky split open, he sees all these animals and he's told to eat it. Eat those animals by a voice that we believe to be God. These were things he was told to never eat because the Jewish food customs of that day weren't about, oh, pork is bad.
The Jewish food customs were about this distinguishes who you get to share your table with. If you eat this way and they eat this way, you won't share. That was important in the time of the covenant, important in the time of Moses. But here we are post resurrection, here we are in the wake of the resurrection.
And this voice comes to Peter and says, get up, Peter, and eat. And Peter says, no, no, no, no, no. I never do this. This is not for me because, because I've grown up this way. And in Acts 10 and 11 and 12, you read how Peter comes to this understanding that, that God has. No longer called them to abstain from that, that if it's good and created by [00:32:00] God, why not eat it?
And what that means to him, he finally learns, and Peter is the slowest of all learners. Peter is the slowest of all people to change. Peter is the one that definitely defined, is defined by that phrase, It's never too late to be what you might become. Peter suddenly understands. That the gospel is for everyone and that we are to share a table and he stands before people that, that he would have ignored or been taught not to socialize with or to be in community with Gentiles.
This Jew should never be with a Gentile. And suddenly he says, no, no, no, uh, this, this is a God who shows no favoritism. And because of that, Cornelius's household, this Gentile household comes to know Jesus, Pentecost 2. 0 comes, the Holy Spirit comes. And it says Peter hung around for a week or so. That had to be one heck of a party for that week post Cornelius baptisms.
And I bet they shared a lot of tables and a lot of food and a lot of drink. And Peter had never done that before because he realized it was never too late to be what he [00:33:00] might become. We have to get our tables right if we're going to follow in the ways of Jesus. We have to understand that we are to invite all, regardless of what the world says, regardless of what status they have or color they are.
We invite them to the table because God shows no favoritism. God plays no favorites. That's our calling. That is our calling today as much as it was Peter's in that day.
Heather Gorman: I want to add to that though, that it can sound like, Oh, well, isn't that great? Like let's just share tables with people. But after Peter had that, um, encounter with, I mean, the vision, but then with Cornelius, and he receives hospitality, when the believers, the Jewish believers in Jerusalem found out that That he received hospitality from Cornelius, they were upset with him and they said, because you stayed with the Gentile, right?
And then you think about Jesus, right? The Pharisees are grumbling about Jesus because he eats with [00:34:00] tax collectors and sinners. And so I think it's, It's easy for us to think like things now are worse than they have ever been, and maybe in some ways they are. But at the same time, these aren't new problems, right?
People today say, Oh, you ate with them. Or again, maybe the eating is metaphorical. You engaged that person's work. Or you quoted them. Does that mean you're endorsing them or your church partnered with that church or with that organization? Don't you know that they believe this? And we still do that kind of like guilt by association, I think is what it is.
And so I think it's important to name the work of tables is hard work. It's uncomfortable. It's awkward. People will make accusations. Um, And yet it's good work. Um, and I think we need to be doing it. But lest this sound just like a like, Oh, isn't that a sweet little proposal? I think we need to acknowledge that this often comes with some hard ramifications.
Andrew Camp: Oh, and Peter still messes up later on because in Galatians, Paul has to [00:35:00] rebuke Peter for, you know, withdrawing from Gentiles because of the Jewish and Judaizers influence. Uh, so. Peter's still learning, you know, he's still a work in progress, you know, so it's not easy and, uh, Mark, I want to ask you this question because, you know, Heather was talking about, you know, not only what Jesus did, but how Jesus did it, and it was a roundtable, and you've served in the church most of your life.
And our churches aren't structured around tables. It's, you know, so much heavy, so much emphasis is placed on rows, listening, um, passive engagement. You could say, right, like to, to characterize it to a certain extent. What needs to change if how Jesus practiced was around tables so that churches can more model that aspect?
Mark Nelson: I think I'll answer that two ways. One with we, uh, planted a church in 2007 in downtown Knoxville, and we founded [00:36:00] it upon this. The name of the church is called crossings, and it's based upon the story of Jacob wrestling with God, crossing the river job, and spending the night wrestling with God, trying to figure out, I think trying to figure out if his faith was his own or not, or if he believed because, you know, granddaddy was Abraham and daddy was Isaac.
And we said, you know what? We believe that as a faith community, we need to provide a space for everyone to cross the river Jabbok and figure that out. Because I believe everybody in their life has to do that, has to cross over and do that. Hmm. And so crossings became a place for everybody along the spectrum of deconstruction or reconstruction or, you know, disorient order disorder, reorder, all those types of phrases that are used by people a lot smarter than me.
And, and crossings became that church where everybody came in and everybody was invited to be a part of our community. And our community's not just about a service on Sunday. Our community is about the way we, we live together and we do share tables. So that's [00:37:00] one example that I have seen that has worked.
Now that is a church that is now 17 years old. I'm currently helping a church, uh, on the east side of Knoxville. That's 155 years old. And this church was down to about 12 people. Now they're up to about 60, whatever. And so we've got new folks and we've got old folks, not well, they are old, but old. Like they've been there for a while too.
And they can't get to know each other. And so what we started doing is the simplest of things as a church is, uh, once a month, we have three or four houses that says we're going to host a dinner. If we can get people to go into other people's homes and set and eat dinner, those divisions between old and new will slowly disappear.
They, they just don't know how to do it. And so we've encouraged people to go to these tables with a deep curiosity. Stop talking about the weather. Stop complaining. Oh yeah. The referees were bad at that football [00:38:00] game yesterday. Let's go deeper. Let's try to ask the questions that are, that are much more curious, a higher degree of curiosity so that we can sit around tables and sit there and get to know each other and each other's story and love each other from wherever we came from.
So I think there is a way both in a, in a church setting that, that is newer, that has a different. and a way to do it in the old world. It's not just about church planning. It can be any church. They say it's harder, you know, it's, it's easier to give birth than to raise the dead when it comes to church planning.
I don't know. I think we're all doing the same thing. We're trying to teach people to live in the way of Jesus. And that involves getting to know people. In any way we possibly can. And the best way to do that, I think, is around tables. And that's not some high tech, high gadget, Oh my gosh, I've never thought about that church growth method.
You mean to invite people to dinner? Come on. First of all, it's the way of Jesus. It's the way of the scripture, but [00:39:00] it's also the way of our culture. So it's, I think, coming from the pastoral perspective. That it, it is, and I'm not saying it's not without challenges, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not, you know, Pollyannish this at all.
I'm just saying it is a simple approach that if we follow in the ways of Jesus, get to know people around the table, I think the church starts to change and evolve. You know, the phrase that we use throughout the book, it's a Brene Brown phrase. It's hard to hate people up close and it's hard to be divided from people.
If you ask them over to your house for dinner, it just really is. Again. That's not high tech. That's simply the way of Jesus.
Andrew Camp: So to take this to a very practical level. Okay. So I make an invite and invite people to my house. What do I do next? Like, you know, like the biggest step is obviously inviting how, what question are there questions or how do I become a better [00:40:00] conversationalist or how do I not lash out when they say something that might be truly offensive or I find irritating or, um, how can we take this from, Um, you know, this nice theoretical to very deeply practical, um, for people listening
Heather Gorman: to a different scene in Ted Lasso.
Uh, most of you are listening and not seeing, but I do have a Ted Lasso mug that I keep in my office. And on the back of this mug, it has one of the famous quotes from the movie, the bull's eye scene, uh, be curious, not judgmental. Um, uh, more I study theology and people. The more I think that curiosity is one of the greatest gifts we can bring as Christians to one another.
Um, and so I think if you have folks around your dinner table to ask curious questions, again, that's to me the opposite of superficial. Uh, so what sports team do you like? Oh, [00:41:00] how did you become such an avid fan of this? Instead of what do you do? Oh, so you're a lawyer. When did you figure out that you wanted to be a lawyer?
And what, like, uh, what gets you out of bed in the morning to do that job? Right. There's all different ways that we can ask those questions. But I think of super simple one is like, tell me some of your story. How did you get to where we are right now? And I truly believe. This is the way that we start to have more empathetic understandings, especially of people who are different than we are.
I, uh, teach a course, uh, here at Johnson university called theology and human sexuality, which is to say, I like to talk about controversial things. And one of the assignments that my, uh, colleague and I who co teach it, uh, with that, we give to the students, the first assignment of the semester, it's called a listing exercise.
And they just have to find someone who believes, differently than they do on any issue of sexuality. It can be abortion, same sex marriage, pornography, pick, pick your topic. You have to find somebody who's different than you [00:42:00] and you basically interview them, but you're not allowed to do anything besides ask questions and not like combative, combative rhetorical questions that prove you're right, like genuine questions.
And then they have to reflect on what it's like to Like listen without being heard what it's like in the number of times that students say, like, huh, like the interview their mom, somebody they've known their whole life. They're like, I had no idea about that. And that makes so much sense of why she believes that.
And the goal is not for anybody in that project to like change their belief, but it's to understand that actually a lot of other followers of Jesus or not followers of Jesus actually probably have good reasons for why they are where they are. And we can be, we can sit with those a lot better. If we can kind of get the stories behind it.
And so I think just an idea of curiosity of tell me how you got there. This is how I approach, you know, um, in my own context with, with students, with family members, with colleagues who are different, like, tell me how you got there. And I mean, that [00:43:00] genuinely, um, and I think that that curious posture is can go so far.
Uh, another, a book that I might recommend, I think we engage in the book is, uh, Mark quoted David Brooks earlier, he wrote a book in the last year called how to know a person and that book, we were, my husband, I were listening to on vacation and I actually opened up a note on my phone and was like copying down.
He just gave dozens of good questions to and I thought, This is great. And then I've got them there and to kind of sometimes like, okay, the conversation's dull or shallow, like, all right, here's a way I can go deeper. So that'd be a great book to start with after hours. Of course,
Andrew Camp: of course, no, I love that idea of simply having questions written out like, sometimes we think, oh, we're going to just going to have this organic gathering, but when we're inviting people to be in conversation with, like, it's much harder, um, than we give it, give credence to.
And so to have questions. Yeah. Yeah. written out are good questions, you know, that can help foster curious [00:44:00] conversation, I think is a wonderful idea in and of itself.
Heather Gorman: And if we're honest, there are a few people who don't like to talk about themselves. And so if you can keep turning, kind of turn the arrow, keep turning it back toward them, we can learn.
So much. And I think about some of them, like, uh, my grandfather, my grandfather was one of the best conversationalists I know because he just knew how to ask good questions, which is usually just getting people to talk about themselves. And it was like, there's so much potential to learn there. And I mean, Jesus was a master question asker and a master storyteller.
And I think those are gifts that we need to lean into.
Mark Nelson: Yeah. And it's, it's not just the questions, it's the listening to my, my oldest son is 35 now for the last. 15 years, he keeps saying things like that. My generation, he said, my generation doesn't know how to have a conversation. He says, I'll sit down with somebody and I'll ask them questions and I'll know everything about them.
And he says, you know what? They don't ever ask me any questions back. [00:45:00] They just don't know how to do it. They, they have lost, you know, to go to David Brooks again, Brooks says that, Only 30 percent of the people in the world are good question askers. He says, the rest are nice people, but they just don't ask.
I think it's because they haven't been taught to. And so, and so don't display basic curiosity about others. We just don't know how to ask the questions, but then we don't know how to listen because most of the time we're listening because our world is so divided. We're listening and waiting for a break in the conversation so that we can stop them and then insert what we want them to know.
Yep, about the idea where we disagree. So we've lost the ability to listen because we're formulating our answer while they're talking. Some something has to change there that that's real basic, simple stuff. And it's amazing when you, uh. Become alerted to that. How, how you realize in the middle of conversation.
Oh my, that's exactly what I'm doing.
Andrew Camp: Another tip. [00:46:00] My wife and I are currently to bring back some pop references. My wife and I are currently watching. Nobody wants this on Netflix. It's with Kristen Bell. Um, and they have a podcast. It is. And somebody gives one of the podcasts, it's Kristen Bell's sister, um, on the show.
I forget the names. I'm not good with names. Um, but like advice of how to ask good questions. And the person just says, repeat the last three words of that person and make it into a question, you know, uh, just, you know, reframe it, you know, it's just the reframing of it and asking a good question. And so as you were sharing, I, I, you know.
Uh, topic came up for me of, you know, just take those last three words, our concept they shared and make it into a question and they will keep going, um, into deeper ways of conversation.
Mark Nelson: Yeah, there's a, I think we quote the super communicators book by Charles Duhigg. Is that right? And he talks about the art of looping.
And those, uh, the last few chapters are uber [00:47:00] practical in the book and, and part of it is thinking about how we are to have better conversations. We call it generous. We use the word generous. How do we have more generous conversations? Because, because we don't, and there's so many people like Brooks, like do, like these people that are teaching us, like, like the show with Kristen bell, those things are showing us how to do it.
We have to get out of our own little world and our own little ideological bubble or echo chamber, whichever you want to call it and go, Oh, there's still stuff for me to learn. There's still people for me to get to know. Um, yeah, again, not complicated here, real basic simple stuff.
Andrew Camp: But you also point out that, um, and I think it's important, um, to mention is that conversation is not about conflict resolution.
Mark Nelson: Right.
Andrew Camp: Because I think when we come to the table, again, you've talked about it, we're not looking for sameness, but we also aren't comfortable with conflict. Um, but again, I think you're inviting us to live in this tension [00:48:00] where if we're going to practice Jesus's table. Habits were going to be in some sense of conflict and that good conversation doesn't get rid of that, but maybe enters more fully into that conflict.
Mark Nelson: Yeah. One of my favorite quotes in the book is, uh, it's a business leader, Vala Afshar. Who said that to strongly disagree with someone and yet engage with them with respect, grace, humility, and honesty is a superpower. I love that. It is a superpower to be able to engage generously with someone, even if we're not going to agree with them.
Uh, especially if we're not going to agree with them. Yeah, absolutely. I want that superpower. Yeah.
Heather Gorman: Can I go back to the book of Acts for a second? Of course, I would argue that one of the most important chapters, um, not just in the book of Acts, but in the New Testament is Acts chapter 15, where the early church is saying, all right, Peter had this vision.
Gentiles are in Paul and [00:49:00] Barnabas went on this missionary journey. God's born a spirit on the Gentiles. Like, we get it. They're in, but they have to ask this kind of logistical question of like, so what does that look like? And Luke tells us in Acts 15, there was no small dissension and debate among them.
And it's like, Oh, that was hard. That was awkward. But what you see is James, the brother of Jesus, kind of who is the leader of the church in Jerusalem at that time, when he heard about this issue that Paul and Barnabas were having with some other Jewish Christians in Antioch, he says, all right, we got to get around a table to get.
Now this was, I don't know if there was a literal table there, but, but they're, they're all together. And these are folks with extremely different views. You have Christian Pharisees who are like, These Gentiles, they've got to be circumcised and observe all of Torah. Like, haven't you read Genesis 17? It says that this is the everlasting sign of my covenant.
We don't get to go change God's word and not make that everlasting. But then, Peter's like, yeah, but I had that vision, and the other people saw it, [00:50:00] and Paul and Barnabas are like, yeah, us too, because what God is doing among these Gentiles is exactly what he did among us, Jews, at Pentecost. And they get together, and they're quoting all these different Bible verses that kind of somewhat relate and somewhat don't, and The language that Mark and I used to describe this is it's basically this crucible, this high heat moment where all of these things are going into it.
But what a crucible does is that it takes this high heat, but it leads to something new. And what James doesn't do is just like take a vote and you know, whoever has the most votes wins. They actually come up with a new way forward that I know, uh, many Christians today think compromise is a four letter word.
I don't think it is. Um, it, they compromise and they say, okay, okay. Christian Pharisees, you're not getting everything that you want. We are not having the Gentiles be circumcised. But you know what, Gentile Christians, there are some things that you need to give up so that we can actually be around a table and it's [00:51:00] not, we're not going to ask Jews to come eat bacon at the potluck.
You need to give up some of these other things. And they, they came up with something new and it was hard and it was required a lot of communication. It was probably awkward and messy, but they, they could have all just said, all right, you go form your denomination over there and let's spread all these papers tables apart in each kind of different perspective gets its own table.
But they kept them together and, and they said, nope, we're going to give birth to something new here that tries to honor as many of these kind of perspectives as we can. And I just think, like, what a beautiful model of discernment. Um, from the early church and I, I would love for us to kind of recapture that spirit.
Mark Nelson: Yeah. Two things on that. First of all, the word compromise has been given a bad rap. And so I, when I used to counsel with couples and things like that, I was, what does compromise mean to you? And they'd always say, well, it basically means to give into the other, [00:52:00] you know, nope. I think compromise means to give to the other.
How do, how do I, how do I value you enough to give to you in this way? And so. To echo what Heather's saying, yes, absolutely, we see a great example that with that definition of, okay, what's going to further the bigger picture here, how do I give to you and make this picture better? The other thing is the complaints we'll hear about some of the things we suggest in the practical is like, this, this Christian's love to use this phrase, well, isn't that a slippery slope?
You know, isn't it like, you know, you're going to, you know, you're going to backslide your, all those, all those phrases. And I would say, yeah, it could be a slippery slope. I think it's a much slipperier slope to not pursue the way of Jesus in this. I think it's much worse. I think the consequences are much worse if we just refuse and sort ourselves and stay in our echo chambers and refuse to step out and to see people in a way that.
That [00:53:00] allows us to give to them. I think that's much more dangerous than worrying about, Oh, I might be influenced by them.
Andrew Camp: I think it's relying on the fact that, like, Jesus's presence brings healing and goodness and, like, it's not always easy and, but it's safe in, in, in a existential way. Um. You know, and so I, I think, yeah, the consequences are too high, you know, not to practice the ways of Jesus.
Um, and it will be messy.
Heather Gorman: It will be. And I'm not sure how we've gone 40, 50 minutes, uh, without bringing this up, but, um, the key theological idea behind lunchroom theology is Jesus vision in John 17, his last prayer for his disciples before he's about to go to his death is that he prays not just for those disciples there, but for us, for all who will come to know him, [00:54:00] uh, from these disciples.
And his prayer is that we followers would be one as he and the father are one. And he says, and this is so crucial. This is how the world will know that the father sent me. You want to talk about high stakes? Like, us botching this unity thing? Is botching our witness to the world. And again, I, I think having a community that can sit with others in difference and keep the, the main things, the main thing, right?
If Jesus and his vision and who he is, is the absolute priority, all of those other things, get their rightful place underneath Jesus. It doesn't mean they're not important. It doesn't mean we're not going to have those conversations, but when Jesus and the oneness that he prayed for for us is the top priority because Jesus says, that's how the world will know you sent me.
The rest of it gets put in perspective. And so I do think the stakes of this are really high if we believe Jesus. And I sure hope we do.[00:55:00]
Andrew Camp: Amen. Um, it's a question I ask all of my guests as we wrap up and you've touched on it, but I'd love sort of a summary from both of you. So Heather, I'll ask you to answer first and Mark will go second. What's the story you want the church to tell?
Heather Gorman: I want the church to tell a story. That gives all, hold on. Let me think how I'm going to say this. I'm going to pause a minute. Um, that's such a good question.
I think the story that I want the church to tell is one that is unapologetically rooted in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. It all goes back to that. To me, this isn't about an institution. This isn't about power. This isn't about programs. I This is about Jesus, about God incarnate becoming one of us and [00:56:00] showing us a better way to live.
And as Christians, uh, you know, we confess our primary confession is that Jesus is Lord, you know, in the ancient world, it's and Caesar is not in a modern world. It's and our president is not, or our Congress is not, or whoever else. Claims it, you know, uh, Silicon Valley. It's not like none of those things compared to the lordship of Jesus.
And if we put that as our number one thing and recognize that our job is to extend this kingdom, but that kingdom looks like it ought to reflect its King. And if Jesus is the King who was, Washing feet and sharing tables with Pharisees and sinners and tax collectors and all these other folks like our job is to serve him and we do that in a way that ought to be modeling his ways, not the ways of our culture.
Our politics are modern day lunch rooms. And so I think it would just be getting back to that compelling vision that Jesus gives us.
Mark Nelson: Yeah, I, I think my answer [00:57:00] would be, there's a quote we have in the epilogue where someone was asked, you know, what, what do you see the future of the church and Christianity to be?
And they said that I expect that Christianity will become uglier than it has ever been in our lifetimes in the next 10 years. And I expect more beautiful expressions of Christianity will be emerging than we've ever seen. And he said, as the uglier becomes uglier, more and more people wake up and go, wait a minute.
I don't want to be a part of this. I can't be a part of that. And they'll, they'll dare to do something. And so I think, I think when we look at the church and followers of Jesus and what the church has become, I think we should say, I think things will get better and I think things will get worse. And I'm going to try to invest my life in where they're getting better.
I love Jesus and I love church in that order. There are two ways set before us, the ugly and the beautiful. The church has to choose the beautiful because we are the ones who will determine over the next few decades [00:58:00] what Christianity looks like looks like in our cities and our neighborhoods and our families and I get to in tomorrow morning at 8 a. m. I get to talk to about 25 ministry students who are freshmen. And I'm going to tell them this, I said, you are the ones, if you, if you pursue this as a ministry, if you pursue this as a vocation in your life, you are the ones who will determine how beautiful or how ugly the ways of Jesus are viewed by this world and how it's lived out in the church.
We must we we have to choose the more beautiful way. That's what I want the church to understand That's that's what I want the church to become by choosing the way of Jesus, it is the more beautiful way
Andrew Camp: Oh, thank you for those words. And as you write in your the end of your book, you don't call it a conclusion But you just want people to try something do something And so as you've heard the words of mark and heather, I hope listeners you You take a step.
It's again, what Mark said, like, we're not asking you to, to take 20, [00:59:00] 000 steps. We're beginning to ask you to take that one step, move from point D to E, you know, wherever you are to take that one next step, um, in choosing the more beautiful way. Um, and so then some fun questions to wrap up to completely do a 180, um, you know, to have a little fun as we end up, cause this has been, um, a rich conversation.
Um, Mark. I'll ask you both these questions, but I'll start with Mark this time. What's one food you refuse to eat?
Mark Nelson: I, uh, I can't do seafood, and especially sushi. I have, I have been taught by, uh, an expert sushi eater how to do it, and I cannot stand it. And. It'd be one thing if I didn't try it, but I've
Heather Gorman: tried it and I can't do it.
I'm the same. I, I keep retrying seafood hoping that my adult palate will catch up and every time I'm like, ugh, it's like slimy and stinky and I want to like it and I just don't.
Andrew Camp: [01:00:00] Okay. And does that go for cooked seafood? Like, are we just talking sushi? Oh yeah.
Heather Gorman: All of it. Like.
Andrew Camp: All of it. Okay. Shrimp,
Heather Gorman: any of it.
No, thank you. Fish, fish
Mark Nelson: sticks. It doesn't matter.
Andrew Camp: It doesn't matter. Okay. Fair enough. Then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
Mark Nelson: Oh, I, I love New York city pizza. I love, I'm not a Chicago style guy. I love the thin crust pizza and the fact that I can get it on every block in New York city.
It's a, that's joy.
Heather Gorman: I'm going to choose one that has not a super long story, but it's not just the quality of food, but the quality of who I ate it with. Growing up on Sundays, my grandma would have all of our family over for church. And I have, I mean, deep core memories of gathering with my whole family and she would make homemade mashed potatoes, none of this box stuff, homemade mashed [01:01:00] potatoes.
And, um, um, noodles and we would put the noodles on top of the mashed potatoes and people are like, you can't put starch on starch. And I was like, yes, we did. We are Midwesterners. And it was like warm and gooey and then maybe a little corn on the side to bring in some sweetness. And so it's like the good home cooked food, but also at grandma's table, because this isn't just, it wouldn't be as good if I had gotten it on the road, but eating there with my grandma and grandpa.
Andrew Camp: I love it. Um, I love that you said we can put starch on starch because we're good midwesterners.
Yeah. And then, and finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals as if, as in, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so Mark, what would your last meal be?
Mark Nelson: I, I love Greek and Mediterranean food.
And one of the reasons I love it is because I get to eat a little bit of everything and I can order this plate and this [01:02:00] plate, there's a place here in Knoxville called Kefi and there's a place in Greenwich village called Shuka. And those are two of my favorite restaurants in the world. And so I would think that, uh, yeah, for one thing, if it's my last meal, it would take me a long time to eat that.
So I extend my life just, but, uh, but I, I love that way of eating with friends around the table. In fact, when we celebrated the book, uh, Heather and I, with our, our spouses went and celebrated at Keffi and we, uh, we were there, uh, Three or four hours. I don't know. It seemed like that because it was, it was wonderful to share a table and it was wonderful to, to eat that little bit of this and a little bit of this and a little bit of this.
Let me order some more. So yeah, that would be it for me.
Andrew Camp: I
Heather Gorman: am not a Southerner, uh, but I live in Tennessee right now. And one of the great things I learned about when coming to the South was pimento cheese. And I'm not talking about like the container you buy at the grocery store. [01:03:00] I'm talking about like chef made.
And there's a burger joint in Knoxville called Stock and Barrel. And I am absolutely evangelistic about their burger called the Hurt Locker. And it is A lot of beef. I want that medium with Benton's like local thick cut bacon and pimento cheese and fried green tomatoes and it has these incredible fries on the side.
And so, um, I, I talked to a lot of people about that burger and that was one that if, you know, if I'm going to go, that's going to be a good one to go out on.
Mark Nelson: Wow. She shares the good news. If you're
Heather Gorman: listening, please send me a gift card. Um, I'm plugging the restaurant.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no. Oh man. I want to come to Knoxville and try this burger now.
Heather Gorman: Um, and we'll, we will take you to Cafe. We'll take you to Stock and Barrel and we'll, we'll share conversations and good food.
Andrew Camp: Gotcha. And I know, you know, as we wrap up, you know, there's a big game this week. This will come out later than that, but can Knoxville people eat with Georgia people this week?
Mark Nelson: Well, [01:04:00] Knoxville people have trouble with Georgia people, Florida people and Alabama people, especially, but Heather's coming from a whole different angle.
Heather Gorman: Yeah, I'm a, I'm a Buckeye and can we eat with Michigan folks? It, it would be hard, but. I think the gospel says we can.
Andrew Camp: Okay. So yes,
Mark Nelson: the way of Jesus has Buckeyes and Wolverines and volunteers and crimson tide and bulldogs all at the same table.
That should have been our metaphor. Forget this lunchroom thing. It's all about.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. It's all about college football
Mark Nelson: in the South. It is. Yes.
Andrew Camp: Yes. Well, I really appreciate this Mark and Heather and appreciate your willingness and generosity with your time to join me on this conversation. Um, Listeners, please pick up Lunchroom Theology.
It's available anywhere and everywhere you find your book. Um, and if people want to learn more, about what you're each up to. Is there a place they can find you?
Mark Nelson: Uh, for me, yeah, uh, lunchroomtheology. [01:05:00] com is out there, so you can read the first chapter for free if you're interested in testing it out. And also, uh, threeriverscollaborative.
com is the organization I work with that creates learning communities for churches. And the name collaborative is very intentional, that we're trying to get people around the same table. That would probably be the two places.
Heather Gorman: Yeah, if you google Johnson University, Heather Gorman, uh, my faculty page would come up there, which would have my contact info, some of my teaching philosophy, um, and things like that.
And so yeah, I would be happy to get in touch and talk more for anybody who's interested.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. Yeah. And please do pick up and read Lunchroom Theology. It's a great book, great resource, um, for Jesus followers and people who love Jesus and love the church and want to see us enter into a more beautiful way.
Um, and so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. [01:06:00] Until next time. Bye.