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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (04:08)
That's so official. We have like a countdown and everything. I was not ready for that either. And the beautiful thing is we can edit out all these like, wow, look, can record. Wow, you get a countdown. Me too. And then I also, took a walk midday to clear my head and because it's beautiful out, it is 79 now, but it was gorgeous. And my first thought was there's going to be one of these that we record. And Alaina sends me the message like,
Jeff Allen (04:11)
I wasn't ready for that.
Tom Hootman (04:35)
a day later that's like, got really bad news. It's unusable for whatever reason. There's like the audio didn't come over or like some of the videos, something's going to happen. And it's going to be like, we're going to have to do reshoots, which is going to be phenomenal. So hopefully it's not this one, but Jeff.
Jeff Allen (04:40)
That was terrible.
gonna happen.
The reshoots are what kills the budget, man. You gotta watch them.
Tom Hootman (04:56)
Almost, it kind of almost killed my announcement video budget. I I was like, shit. And then I had to do, that's where this all happened back here because I had to like stage it here because I couldn't get back into farm. I could, but I don't, I'm Midwestern. I couldn't be like, by the way, can I have the bar one more time? Ope
Jeff Allen (05:03)
Beautiful.
Can I maybe sorta have the bar, please? I'll clean up. I'll work the night shift.
Tom Hootman (05:16)
Because
Doug, who's amazing there, gave us the bar walk. He was there setting up their outdoor patio for the summer. And I felt bad because he was there all day. And there were a couple of points where we were recording videos or doing camera work. he would come in for a break and just be like, Doug, go outside. You're making me nervous. Stop it.
Jeff Allen (05:32)
like to
That literally looked like Doug. ⁓ You did a great impersonation.
Tom Hootman (05:39)
Thank you, I hang out at that bar a lot, so I should be able to do a great impersonation.
So Jeff, least favorite CEO you've ever worked for and why is it Jeremy Kornfeld?
Jeff Allen (05:48)
man, the worst. It's the hair. It's too good. It's too good.
Tom Hootman (05:50)
No, it's the hair. It's too good. It's just too good.
It's too good. He's too smooth. I wanted to do that because I wanted to mention him so I can tag him in the post just to get a little rise out of him next time I catch up with him. But he's a good dude. Yeah, definitely a good dude. one of the reasons why, and this is why everyone's rolling their eyes, is because you're the first guest. For obvious reasons, we work together for like...
Jeff Allen (06:06)
That's a good dude.
Tom Hootman (06:15)
12 years, 12 plus years. And your story is interesting to me because number one, we're friends. You were my boss for a long time, which wasn't hard at all. And then you made a huge jump in your career. And I'm always fascinated, and we talked about this a few times over drinks, like I want, it's really, that's something I want to dig into is that.
You worked your way up at a company with the president, Hanapin, then SVP, COO of North America. And these were people you worked with for like a decade. So you were kind of like, Jeff, hey, it's Jeff. Day one, you go to Outer Box. You don't know a fucking soul. What's that transition like taking on a new role at that level? Because it's not like...
some, like the vast majority of us, like you get a new job and they like put someone in charge of you who's like, here's where the coffee maker is and here's how you fill out your forms. You're like the CEO on day one. How do you jump into that? What was like the like the what was that like?
Jeff Allen (07:06)
Yeah, it was definitely interesting like you said, I mean being at the same place for a really long time and being part of hiring almost everyone, I think everyone except for you at one point. Very different. I'll say we had an amazing leadership team. They made me feel incredibly welcome when I started.
understanding that exactly like you said it was like I'm used to a sheet that has this type of data on it do we have a sheet that has any type of similar data on it or you know a tool or whatever so I asked a lot of dumb questions and really kind of you know got ramped up by them so they were incredible and I do think like probably one of the biggest shocks culture shock so to speak was just realizing that trust doesn't transfer
So at the old place, if I did something, for the most part, I would like to think most people understood me well enough to be able to understand a little bit of what I might be thinking or how I acted in the past or what might have led to that decision. Even if it was a decision or a comment that maybe wasn't great, maybe give me the benefit of the doubt or something like that. And here I am, a whole group of people meeting for the very first time and became very, very conscious of, shoot, they don't have that context. They don't know.
who I am they haven't been part of previous decisions so everything I do from this moment forward is all they have.
to judge me, to use that word, but not necessarily negatively on. And so that was interesting. I don't know how to describe the sensation other than just an aha and super self-conscious and how do I navigate this. But again, the team, so I went in the first couple months really, I spent meeting people on the team and meeting clients. I had you know, I met 1:1
with a huge number of the team and then in small groups with the rest. Was it predominantly 1:1? It was probably half and half. I wasn't able to meet everyone one on one, but probably met about half the team in a one on one and then the rest were small groups. And then I met with our 20ish clients or something like that during the time. I just, the thing that shocked me, shocked is the wrong word, but the thing that surprised me when I walked away was just how much people cared.
Tom Hootman (08:50)
Was it predominantly one-on-one though? Like the...
Jeff Allen (09:11)
Like it just oozed out of the team. They cared about the business, they cared about each other, they cared about me, they were really worried about my experience and everything like that. And so within a couple months, really quickly, I started feeling at home again and like, okay, these are people who, you know, we're all in this together and we all care about each other and we're gonna figure this out.
Tom Hootman (09:30)
Was there anyone who was like, so that's great, number one, because people, like that tells you the culture's there. And there isn't like, there's this, like the trust isn't there, obviously, because you have to earn that, but there aren't like, you you're picking up like open, like, here we go again, right? Because I think there was some stability even before somewhat, but was there anyone who you met with and named them and, I'm kidding, anyone you met with who was like,
Listen, fucker, I'm pissed, right? Like it was like, you were kind of like, whoa, like this is hot out of the gates. Or were they most like, like as a CEO, where you did you feel like you got the, it's wonderful to meet you. I'm excited to have you. Thank you so much. I work really hard. Bye.
Jeff Allen (10:08)
I mean, there's certainly a lot of that, which was great too. There was one or two people who I would say it probably wasn't exactly like you described, but it was like, I think you should know. I think you should know some history here. I think you should know some context that no one else might give you.
Tom Hootman (10:19)
Yeah.
Jeff Allen (10:26)
you know, I tremendously valued those conversations because oftentimes it was like, wow, I would have, how would I have known that that was a thing? And it gives me some context on maybe what to focus on in those early days, but also maybe what to avoid. And some of it was just, it's hard to describe, it wasn't bad, it wasn't this is wrong, or it wasn't we're upset about this. It was just much more about,
Tom Hootman (10:33)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Allen (10:49)
I really care about this business and I really care about the people here and I've thought these things could be better and it hasn't necessarily gone anywhere. And now as I feel there's an open door here to have a conversation that maybe goes differently than it gone before. So yeah, I really like that. There's one person, I'm not gonna name him, but there's one person that comes to mind. He's amazing.
Tom Hootman (10:57)
That's good.
Jeff Allen (11:10)
He's a little bit grumpy and I think he would admit to being a little bit grumpy and I just know whenever I talk to him I'm gonna get real unvarnished truth and he's not gonna polish it up but also not really embellish it and I've stayed really close to him I think over the last year and a half or so and
Oftentimes, if this has gone better now, thank you. And this one now still isn't working or is now broken and work on that. So, it's like an important part of it. You gotta find folks willing and kind of courageous enough to have those types of conversations. And then like I said, going back to caring, care enough to want to try to make it better or different at least.
Tom Hootman (11:32)
Yeah.
How long did you wait before you had your first like all hands?
Jeff Allen (11:49)
It was quick, was, might've been the first day.
Tom Hootman (11:51)
Yeah.
Jeff Allen (11:52)
Yeah, and I think part of that was timing, like timing lined up such that there was a meeting scheduled, if I remember right. And so I joined it and I think my very first meeting, I talked a lot, which I don't love to do, but I think I talked for like a half an hour and just laid out a little bit of my history and how I approach things and how I'm thinking about the business. Obviously I didn't know it too well, so it wasn't like, know, here's the vision and here's the pillars and here's everything we're gonna do. I was just trying to put myself and I'd gone through
Tom Hootman (12:17)
pillars.
Jeff Allen (12:21)
similar transitions before meeting a new person meeting a new boss and being like okay and so I thought a lot about what you sound some presentations maybe some things that didn't land and it was like I can avoid you can avoid some of that what did land and to me what landed a lot was like personalizing here's who I am as a person here's what I care about here's my interest here's how I approach
Tom Hootman (12:31)
is. Yeah.
Jeff Allen (12:42)
know, agency life. Here's why I love agencies. I just talked a lot about that to try to ground some context.
Tom Hootman (12:47)
Yeah,
I asked it, you touched on it. I think you and I both did a lot of this because we've we've seen multiple changes in leadership and we've been at that tier where you have teams that report to you and there's a new there's a new boss. And I always you feel I over empathize anyway. I mean, I can't watch Ben Stiller movies because I may make me too like I get embarrassed for like the character. like they get like one shot. You get like one hour.
and you get like 20 minutes of that to make an impression. And it's incredible to me how, number one, people can be pretty spot on, but how wildly off they can be. I would talk to someone after a town hall, and they would be like, I don't like them. And you're like, what don't you like about that person? Like, I don't know, they just, I felt like they talked around the issues. I'm like, well, it's like day 28, right, or day one. And then someone else, and then like,
28 minutes later would be like, what a great town hall. Like, I really felt like that was like a fireside chat. That was great. So, so much of I felt like our jobs became having to provide context and not PR, because I think the people out there would be like, that's, you see fucking PR hack. But it's like, no, like context, because we have the opportunity to meet this person before, and you don't want anyone to get judged over, you know, 20 minutes in a...
town hall and everyone has to make snap judgments because it's the your livelihoods at stake. especially in agency land, where agencies flex out and then contract and then move and we're at the mercy of where our clients are going sometimes and their acquisitions, you your job, you worry about your job, everyone should work like they're worried, right? And you so that people have to make these snap judgments is why I asked like how soon when you after you started, did you do it? And then
having that team, like a good leadership team, it's like, you said you have, we've talked about the great people like be able to like provide context because I mean, for context, how many employees do you have now?
Jeff Allen (14:43)
We're around 230.
Tom Hootman (14:44)
So yeah, at 230, you have to deliver the message from the mountaintop and then have people that help provide context into the, here's what that means to you.
Jeff Allen (14:56)
Yeah, you mentioned like the PR thing and I think both like that's true, although it could have a negative connotation. The same is true for politics, by the way, like corporate politics or whatever can have a very bad connotation. But one of the things I learned is I've grown and worked at larger agencies and businesses is like politics is just a thing. Like it's part of just making relationships and understanding motivations and, you know, coming to alignment. But on the PR thing, I think, you know, what you just described, I think is
you it sounds like you saw part of your role or our role to set other people up for success and I think in a healthy environment, a healthy culture, most people are walking around all day kind of thinking about how do they help other people in that business be successful because they understand they get that connection to if they're successful I'm successful and I think sometimes in less
great cultures. It actually starts feeling a bit the opposite or it's you I don't know what's going on or I just met the person too. And so I think it's a sign. I think it's a strong sign if people are walking around wanting other people to be successful and making sure to focus on the things that will help them do that. That's huge.
Tom Hootman (15:55)
Yeah.
We talked about this over drinks recently about the things we learned. In the moment you don't realize you're learning or the lessons that are positives that in the moment because you're kind of getting feedback or you're getting asked to do, like you're getting pushed in a direction that's uncomfortable for you, that you're like, this is bullshit, I hate this, right? That in hindsight, or like, hey, I don't know what this means. And in hindsight, you look back on it you're like, no, like that's really great. That was really great.
I love that. For me, one of the things that initially felt like, this real or is this because I didn't have trust, was is this real or is this just a phrase on the wall, was assume positive intent, which was true. Like, there's no nefarious like, he, eh. That's a Mark Casey-ism, the mustache thing. Eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh,
Jeff Allen (16:51)
Mark Casey call out, I love it.
Tom Hootman (16:53)
Right? Like it said some saying or some quote from a movie like from way back, it might actually have been Stiller in it, to be honest, where he says there's no good guys and there's no bad guys. There's just a bunch of guys. Like there's like, there's people tend to like fight or flight kicks in and they kind of feel like they have to choose one or the other. And it's like, no, like that's all you. Like there's no one out to get you.
Jeff Allen (17:15)
Yeah, I still use that one all the time because I think you mentioned this, but it can be weaponized, right? Like someone can be, you know, being mean and say, well, you're just not assuming positive intent. I think the reality is most people most of the time are just trying to do the best that they can. And if you put a lens on of assuming that, like even if it's something you don't understand or.
Tom Hootman (17:25)
Yeah?
Jeff Allen (17:35)
feel badly about, you can quickly go to curiosity about, you know, maybe what am I hearing wrong or different or why am I feeling this way or what did you mean by that or whatever it is.
Tom Hootman (17:45)
weaponizing the value statements happens in every organization happens in everyone like yeah ⁓
Jeff Allen (17:49)
Certainly memeing them, like
memeing them I'm okay with, like I find that funny and weaponizing becomes a little dangerous.
Tom Hootman (17:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's a very much of a bias for action, my friend. And you're just kind of like, are we really going to go there in this meeting? OK, I want to talk more about specifics backing away from it. Thank you for that, because that transition you've made is really unique. And also it helps me personally, because people are always asking me, how's Jeff doing? And how was that transition? So there, I'm just going to send the link to this and say, first 10 minutes, you get it.
Go. I want to talk about fun stuff. The pitches. Right. So we've both been on a million different pitches and we've seen pitches go really well and really God fucking awful. Tell me about. Here's this is bit of a change from some of the questions I sent you like the pitch you felt went horribly that we ended up winning or you end up winning that you were like how in the world did they pick us because we
Fuck that up completely.
Jeff Allen (18:45)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know that I have a great answer. I'll give you one that we almost tried to back out of. Remember, I feel like I mentioned the name here. Alaina can just edit it out if not. Protect your bubble. Remember, you remember bubble and squeak? I actually wasn't even in the pitch itself, but was around it.
Tom Hootman (18:53)
Mm hmm. Yeah, just beep it or not. No, Steven, yeah.
Jeff Allen (19:05)
was going on and I just remember this was like 2012 maybe 2013 and it was a big account was a huge brand in the UK at the time and we had Sam Owen our resident Brit who was you know oh my gosh these guys are amazing I know them I think he was a customer if I remember right but I certainly knew him and so we're pitching him big big opportunity for us and we get into the account and start doing the audit and we're like this is just so bad that
Tom Hootman (19:14)
Yeah.
Jeff Allen (19:35)
We can't even audit this. I think we might even been charging them for the audit if I remember right. I it was a paid... Yeah, and we were just like, we can't in good conscience do this. This is like really, I don't remember what it was, but it was basically like really easy fix, which is like burn it down and start over and we're not gonna charge you money. Yeah, so I think Rob Boyd at the time called them if I remember right, it might've been you, but it might've been Rob and we're just like...
Tom Hootman (19:38)
I think it was a paid audit. was like five grand or something just to pay a audit. Yeah.
That'll be $5,000, please.
Might've
been Kayla, actually, I think it was her deal.
Jeff Allen (20:04)
Kaley, and yeah, and just like, hey, we feel bad. We don't think we should charge you for this. And they ended up, you know, being like, okay, fine. We'll just hire you to actually do the work and turned into a great engagement.
Tom Hootman (20:16)
And it was, and at the time,
sorry to interrupt you, you're like, now we'll just hire you. And you're like, well, that's a giant fucking red flag right there. Like, walk in and they're like, this is awful. Thank God you're here. Here's a check. When can you start? Yeah, no, yeah.
Jeff Allen (20:24)
Little concerning. No, we're telling you this is terrible. This is not going well. We're trying to give you your money back.
But now, Greg Klein, still talk to the, I think he was the CMO or CEO at the time.
So yeah, I don't know that that was a meant that one twin always sticks out in my mind and went differently than maybe I thought. What about you, man? What's one that went differently for you?
Tom Hootman (20:45)
Oh, that's an easy one. University of Chicago. Yeah, that was Danny's pitch and it was Danny, Kayla and I went up for that one. I think he flew in and we picked him up at the airport. I mean, a prestigious university, was sort of a flagship client. You really want this one. we're usually at a boardroom or we're like in some random conference room.
like, conference room B that's named after, a suburb or a sports team or something stupid. And they're like, here's the room you're going to be in. And it was literally a lecture hall, like, like from the paper chase, which is a show in the early 80s, folks that had like the tiered desks, like not because I when I go to IU, like you go to a classroom, like it's normally just a room with tables. This was like dark wood, like
I should be operating on someone and there should be a bright light above me. And then they handed us a lapel mic and they turned it on. it's like, kind of like I am right now where can hear my, I have a monitor. I'm like, all you can hear is yourself. And your media thoughts like, ⁓ shit, like this is kind of crazy. And then they're like, we only have one lapel mic. So you're gonna have to hand it off to each other, which immediately kind of was like, well now I want us all to have them. And.
We get in and they like people like literally file in. think they kind of like it was kind of like, everyone, there's donuts in the break room. It was kind of like, hey, there's a pitch. So there are like 15 people. I was like, I don't know, not met any. I don't know who's the who's the chancellor, the president, if this person is like just a random who wants some coffee or whatnot. And we go through the pitch and one component of the pitch was.
Jeff Allen (21:59)
Do do do do! ⁓
Tom Hootman (22:17)
experience with international search. And I think it was like by do or like one of those like random search engines that was, you know how this works. It's like a tiny, tiny piece that really doesn't impact your work at all. And it's not gonna matter. It doesn't matter. And also like we can figure it out. But to them, it was like make or break. They have to have experience here because this $8 of our multimillion dollar budget is gonna go to this and it's like it was like a sticking point. And
It didn't go like the two or three slides on that did not go well. mean, like. Dead air, no questions. They were like this. And it was like I stopped the pitch because then it went to me or like it went to Kayla from Danny or Danny to Kayla and then to me. And I was like, fuck it. I was like, hey, can we go back to the international thing? Because when we delivered those slides just now, it felt like that didn't land.
and didn't go well or they had more questions about it. So tell me what happened. And then even then we kind of talked about it a little bit more, but it was like, you could very clearly tell the vibe I got was, no, this isn't the agency. Like it didn't wow us. So we finished the pitch. Everyone files out of the theater and we got, still think, I still laugh when I think about this, we get in the elevator.
and the elevator closes and it's the three of us. And it's like, it was like Mad Men, Danny Frisha in the middle, who just always looks at the bright. He's like, I think that went pretty well. And I was like, I could not disagree more. That did not go well at all. Like we bombed in the middle on the international piece. It was a huge hanging point for them, sticking point. And then we got it. It was like a week later, like, congratulations, you won it. And I was like.
Jeff Allen (23:43)
Hahaha
I disagree.
Yeah.
I remember the call after, I think you have a great memory because I think you described that story exactly like that immediately after the...
Tom Hootman (24:05)
It's seared into my brain because I'm on a lapel
mic with these people staring at me from up here and I'm like, bombing.
Jeff Allen (24:12)
but not to toot your horn, but it's such a brilliant move to go back. I think that people get too in their heads on pitches sometimes, and it's like this polished artifact that needs to be this perfect, and we're gonna go just like we rehearsed it or whatever it was. And...
most of the time if you've been on the other end of those like it's a boring two-hour meeting or whatever it is where you're just hoping one of five of those yeah which is crazy and so someone that actually breaks the mold a little bit and is paying attention and notices the reaction and actually like maybe leans into some of the cringiness one's probably refreshing and then two in a minimum it's memorable and it allows you to actually address whatever the issue is in the room like I don't know
Tom Hootman (24:34)
One of five. Boring.
Jeff Allen (24:53)
Bravo, because I think a lot of people would have just kept going along.
Tom Hootman (24:56)
kept going
and hoping that it went well. Yeah, it's, you're right. Like I think on the other side, I've never been on the other side. I've always been agency side, but talking to clients where we win pitches and then we hear like, so tell me once you win it and they sign and we're good. Like, okay, like occasionally they'll like, hey, this is why you won. And then you kind of, if you have a good relationship, like, so tell me about the pitches.
And everyone says the same thing. Like everyone said the exact same thing. And some people had placemats with like their stuff and some people had balloons. Like everyone has their like little pitch magic thing they try to do. And the reason you won is because of, and it's always one little idiosyncrasy that you don't even pick up at the moment that like makes someone go, hmm, that's interesting.
Jeff Allen (25:39)
Yeah.
It reminds me of that, um, uh, intercontinental airline that we pitched where we had pitched him and lost and a year. Yeah. No. And then a year later they call up and say, okay, we're, we're going to go pitch again. Can you be here next week in person? And, and we were like, you know, I love airlines and, we were always down for a challenge. And so we're like, of course. And so, uh,
Tom Hootman (25:49)
I mentioned this last night on a phone call. Anyway, go ahead.
Jeff Allen (26:06)
We booked it. We had Umbro pick us up at the airport because it would save on a rental car because he was in the area. And so he picks us up at the airport, drives us to the meeting. He has no, if I remember right, no meaningfully speaking part in the actual conversation. We pitch in, it goes well. I mean, not maybe amazing, but it goes well. And he drives us back to the airport. pretty sure same day. And we go get on a flight and fly back home. And then we win it. then, know, years later, I think it was a year later, two years later, we
were just talking and it like why did you pick us and like all that and they're like well funny story the reason we didn't pick you the first time was because you were in Bloomington Indiana and it was we were uncomfortable giving our budget to folks that they weren't there and when you guys showed up with well one when you showed up quick that was a test we were like if we had to them out here could they get out here quickly and it was like well pass that and then two when you showed up with this person who happened to live in Boston
Tom Hootman (26:52)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Allen (27:00)
We were like, okay, there's at least a door we can go knock on if there's a problem. And to your point, this thing that we did to save a little bit of money is the thing that actually led to us landing the account. Originally, the thing that led us not landing the account was something we didn't even know was an objection.
Tom Hootman (27:17)
Yeah.
Do you think, like how much do you think in hindsight? Cause for the uninitiated, Hanapin, where we started, had an office in Bloomington, Indiana, but was it like 60 % of the staff at one point was remote, full remote. And we'd talked about getting a second office and we always thought we'd convinced ourselves that didn't matter. And then we've learned, I think in the last few years when you and I worked together that that does matter. How much do you think that held us back?
Jeff Allen (27:30)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (27:44)
Not having, and it's the incentive for agencies to do stupid shit like having a P.O. box.
Jeff Allen (27:49)
It's a good question. I don't know. So you're jogging my memory. When we had that conversation with the airline and uncovered all of that, it was because I was doing fact finding on opening another office somewhere.
Tom Hootman (28:01)
Really.
Jeff Allen (28:01)
trying
to figure out if it helped. We were trying to answer this question that you're asking and so we surveyed a bunch of clients, talked directly to a bunch and even to some non-clients and everything like that and that came out of that conversation and then there was another bit about overarching people were like I don't really care I'm not probably gonna go to your office or whatever but it is really helpful to have someone in my time zone or someone local.
even if it's not someone who's on my account every day. And so we started, if you remember, we started kind of leaning into that more. If we were pitching a client, try to find the person who was remote who was closer to them and have them on the account or whatever.
Tom Hootman (28:31)
Hmm
Bodybuilding.com
was one we did that with.
Jeff Allen (28:37)
perfect example. And so I feel like, I don't feel like it was all or nothing. I don't feel like it was like gonna be this, you know, if we were, had an office in New York or Chicago or something like that, it would have been drastically different. But of course it would have been.
Tom Hootman (28:51)
Yeah.
Jeff Allen (28:52)
There's just connections you can make, relationships you can build, confidence you can give executive decision makers that not having that can impact you. So I think it matters. And again, this was like pre-COVID, right? This is everyone else's remote too. And so we were really kind of on the leading edge of that. Nowadays, I still think it can help, but I do think it's a bit of a different world.
Tom Hootman (29:05)
Pre-COVID.
Yeah, a different world that people are trying to move back to the old world though, like a lot.
Jeff Allen (29:17)
to some extent,
the coworkers are saying they're miserable who are doing it, so we'll see. ⁓
Tom Hootman (29:24)
Yeah,
I mean, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. ⁓
Jeff Allen (29:26)
who is,
yeah, fascinating. We're not, not that you asked, but like, we're not. Like, we have offices, we have three offices, and folks go to them, you know, and people are in them every day, but we have no mandate, and we have people in like 30 different states or whatever, and it's just, you know, it's more important to me we figure out in this remote world how to stay connected and build meaningful connections and collaborate together than it is to figure out how to shove people into an office and, you know, make them collaborate.
Tom Hootman (29:53)
Well, Slack
fatigue is real, right? Like, I mean, it's like just all day, like it just takes so much more effort. And it's why one of the things you were talking about, I think you said you created the how to work with Jeff Doc, right? Yeah, I have one and I scoffed at them. Yeah, it's weird. Hey, heads up everybody. He's an asshole. Prepare for your nickname. ⁓ But it's like I created one of the
Jeff Allen (30:05)
I
You have a How to Work with Jeff doc? You send it to people when they text you?
It's true.
Tom Hootman (30:21)
One of the reasons why was like little things like, you know, this is one of my pet peeves, Slack, when someone's like, Hey, Tom,
And it's like, just jump into it. Like finish, just go, hey Tom, dash, go. Because there's different, people communicate different ways. And like when you're remote, like it is hard. I still run into it. So I've gotten much more in the past few months here, being more comfortable about, want to jump in, at Brainlabs it's always let's jump into a meet And everyone jumps into a meet every time. Very, very rarely was it a phone, never was it a phone call.
Jeff Allen (30:29)
Finish the sentence.
Tom Hootman (30:51)
And at the time, at least everyone was still remote. But here I've got fractional people and people in different areas, people just starting. And some of them are phone call people. Some of them are text people, some are Slack people, some are email, some are Google Meet. And I've had to get used to people being like, hey, do you got a minute? Sure. And I go to open a Meet and send it to them and my phone rings. And I'm like, I was like, what the fuck's that noise? my phone is ringing. Like that actually happens. It bothered me at first because I'm not a phone guy.
But now I love it because I'm working full remote. I put my headphones on and go for a walk and actually get fresh air, which is like, why didn't I do this more often? Because I'd had to walk down a hallway and down some stairs. Yeah, it's just a different mindset. we've talked about, and I think this is why I joked about the PO boxes. As we've started to grow, we're already thinking about, like we have a couple of people who work from coworking spaces.
at a certain point, mixtape, want to take care of that. And then do we create these clusters where people can come together in a coworking space and maybe that area grows to another point, a second apron, if you're an NBA fan, where, okay, we've got 15 people here and the cowork space is expensive as hell, let's get a small office. And it leads me to ask you, like, you have people you said that still go in the office?
Obviously the minority, right? Like there's very few but like, why do you think they go in just to be around people? Is that just it?
Jeff Allen (32:08)
It's a mixed bag, we have a guy, so we have offices in Houston, Akron, and Rochester, Minnesota. And Houston's kind of our largest presence with about 100 people in that area. And whenever I go to that office, I just know this guy's gonna be there. And I asked him that question last time. I was like, hey, you are always here.
What is it? And he was just straight up like, like being in an office, like being out of my house, like being here. And I'm like, are there days you're the only person? And he was like, usually not the only person, but certainly bare bones. And so it wasn't to connect or collaborate. It was just literally to be out of his house. But there's other groups that go to that office in groups to work together one day a week or whatever who.
are working on projects together and they go specifically to collaborate and have brainstorms and do their leadership meetings and stuff like that in those days. So I think the motivation is a bit different for the person. You know, I always went to an office and I loved it but part of it was I know myself and it's easy for me to get distracted and it's easy for me to get hungry and so if I'm right next to my kitchen and you know I have everything in my house I've really had to have some discipline and build some discipline to focus better.
Tom Hootman (33:15)
physically build a door, right?
Jeff Allen (33:17)
Literally took our front door and put it on our library so that I can work in here.
Tom Hootman (33:23)
I've seen it, it actually looks great everyone. It's not like what do you mean? It's just like I took a front door. It's not like a.
Jeff Allen (33:28)
Well, everyone knows Lori and knows she's amazing, so... She did it. Yeah. No, I was the one saying, you're doing what? This is ridiculous. It's gonna look terrible. But no, actually, it has the door knocker on it and everything. It's awesome.
Tom Hootman (33:30)
She's not gonna, she's not gonna fuck around with that. That's gonna be legit, no matter what.
No.
You've worked with multiple PE firms involved in agencies and I've talked to a lot of people because we've hired a few roles and I've got a few fractional like 1099 people. And one thing that I've been kind of marveling at is that everyone, people tend to hate PE firms. They have a really bad reputation, right? Toys R Us is a great example, right? The classic example.
Jeff Allen (34:01)
The Classic.
Tom Hootman (34:03)
Classic, Grace K. You've had success though, you've kind of felt, feel like from at least my perception, there's someone out there who's just like, no, he hasn't. Like you've been able to bridge the gap between like success, managing a successful PE relationship, but also growing the business and ensuring that there's like a, there's a fine line. Like you walk that balance. What do you think makes a good agency with PE backed?
financing and where do see it going?
Jeff Allen (34:31)
I think ⁓
I've brought back, you might remember in our town halls, the triangle of people, finance, and clients. I talk about it a little different now, but I talk about our people retention, I talk about our client retention, and I talk about our performance to budget every month when we meet as a team. And we talk about it just for context in terms of...
You gotta find balance between those three things. If you over-focus on making your coworkers, your teammates really happy, well that may commit the sacrifice of clients because you may say, hey, don't worry that client's upset but don't return their phone call. You have other things to do and don't stress about it and you lose clients like crazy. Or you may say you want these benefits and perks and so we're gonna invest in them but then the budget goes haywire.
You know, so on and so forth. And so a lot of, a lot of what, how I think about decision making and how I think about the long-term vision of a business is balancing those three things. No decision, you're going to balance all three in one, but you know, the whole of all the decisions you make bring those things into balance. And I think there's, that's a hundred percent aligned with what
PE firms would think about buying or investing in professional service firms. They understand you gotta take care of the client, you gotta have people to deliver the work, and the budget has to make sense. And so in similar conversations with them, we're also talking about the balance of those things and how they impact where we're going and what we're doing. And I think there's inherent alignment.
I've my experience with I've worked with two closely and three total and different PE firms. I found them all great. I found them all very supportive. I found them great at thinking through problems and opportunities. I find them really interesting because they often are working with tons of different portfolio companies and so they can bring in perspective and context that you might not have. And so I've found it really great. I think, you know, I think a lot back to the early COVID days, like literally the week.
know, week two weeks into, okay, the world's getting shut down. And one of the first things that helped us understand or have context for how bad it was going to be in the short term was PE folks saying, hey, we're sitting in board meetings, we're sitting in management meetings, we can tell you companies, the first thing they're talking about is pulling marketing budget. Why would they be marketing right now?
and they're gonna have to save costs and so on and so forth. So you guys might not know that's happening yet. So week one, everything may look fine, but we are telling you those decisions are being made in week two, week three, week four, you're gonna start hearing from clients. And that was exactly what happened. And luckily we had already kind of started preparing for that to some extent. So there's just, there's some cool context and knowledge sharing perspective that it's hard to get, I think in other ways. As far as like the future, I think there's gonna continue to be a lot of investment in digital.
agency space. There's 50,000 agencies as we've talked about before. ⁓ Anytime there's 50,001 agencies out there and like 10,000 clients that we all want to work with, you're ripe for consolidation to bring that down and for investment. So I think it's going to continue to happen. But like I said, I've found a net positive and
Tom Hootman (37:19)
Good tagline, thanks for mentioning. There are 50,001 since April 14th.
Jeff Allen (37:40)
really enjoyable.
Tom Hootman (37:41)
And that's good. think that you're right. Anytime you add, you talked about the triangle. There's a different triangle of like the people, the agency leadership and the PE firm, right? These three parties, one gets introduced and I do think there's a tendency because all three are never in the room at the same time. PE firm, rightfully so, is like, don't want to be like, just run it. So they become a bit of this like boogeyman or this like.
Anything going back to assuming positive intent, anything that rolls out that is like that's like a change that could be perceived as difficult or something that people don't want to do or change its negative to the agency. If to change a policy or how you work, there's a tendency for everyone to go, ⁓ PE here we go. And then, and it's hard. I don't for it. I've got to be hard for an agency exec to, to stand there. We're like, no, like that's not what this is because it's so easy to be like, yeah, I mean, let me tell you, we're all in this together. Do our best.
Jeff Allen (38:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (38:33)
And it's
Jeff Allen (38:34)
No, nail on the head, man. I've heard that many different times at different places before. drives me crazy because like you said, it's almost never actually the PE firm. Like they don't make most, they don't make it. This is going to sound, they don't make decisions. And I don't mean that bad, but like, that's not why they're there. They're not there to manage the business. They're there to make sure that the business is being managed and.
that what's going on makes sense. And so there's very few, if any, decisions that the PE folks are making on behalf of the company. It's advice, guidance, and support, as I find it. But it's really easy. It's really easy to point a finger, because like you said, they're not.
room and I've seen that and I've seen that create negativity within a culture and it's just like it's not fun I spent a lot of time saying that's not fun or that's not interesting it's not fun or interesting to me to like blame other people for for anything no matter what it is and so I try and for better or worse I don't know if this is the right way I just try to own things like the number of times I say this is my decision I want you to know I decided this and I want you to know I'm the person to
love or hate because of wherever we're going with whatever the decision is. And for one, it's more empowering and interesting to be the person willing to stand behind and have conviction behind the decisions that are being made. And two, it's more helpful. So it's like, so don't go, you know.
worry or gossip or talk to other people about this, come to me. I'm right here. You can talk about it if you disagree or if you agree. Love to hear happy things too. But I don't know, I find it much more interesting to actually have real conversations about it.
Tom Hootman (39:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, there's a theme today about like context and like the right mentality and assuming positive intent. And it always reminds me of when Conan O'Brien had the Tonight Show and then like they kicked him off the Tonight Show. And it was like the whole thing where he was locked in for like 90 days. So he just got crazier and crazier and did more wild stuff. But it's like, can't, yeah.
Jeff Allen (40:27)
and how to spend the budget.
Tom Hootman (40:30)
how are
you going to fire? can't fire me. So we're going to do whatever we want because you already fired me, but you gave me 90 days to see myself out. And it was hilarious. And like, there was like this very much like pro like team Coco, like he's right they're wrong. And he was, I'm taking a side. That's the side. But also like his last little monologue he did where he talked about, I thought it was amazing. I think about it still to this day. Like he was like, don't get pessimistic, right?
Jeff Allen (40:35)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (40:56)
and don't become caustic and don't let that mentality kind of grind you down to turning into a negative person because that is like ick in a fish tank. Like it really does kind of like seep into your soul. And I don't think you realize it. And I've worked with people, you and I both have, who let that kind of envelop them and they're just not fun, right? They're they're never having fun because they're kind of like in this state of constant fight.
Jeff Allen (41:23)
Yeah. I think that I would have a lot of empathy for that exactly like you just said. I think that is a tough place to be and I try to, I don't try, I believe people's experience. So I believe that is their perception and that experience of what's going on and thus it feels very real to them and everything like that. But exactly to your point, it's like if they can work through that by themselves or with support, with mentorship or whatever that looks like.
Tom Hootman (41:24)
always, which is a tough place to be.
Jeff Allen (41:51)
On the other side of that is the opportunity that you can see or the more interesting thing to focus on or the thing that you can impact. You can't control some of it, but you can other pieces and all of that. yeah, I don't know. It's like I kind of get it, but at the same time, you know.
I love the optimism and I love the belief that things could be better and the ability to impact that. Again, I think a lot about empowerment. so I just, want to focus on the stuff that I feel like I can impact. And if it's something I can impact, then I try to let it go and shift my focus to the things that I'm empowered to tackle.
Tom Hootman (42:22)
Yeah.
I've had many a coach and a couple therapists who've really worked on that with me. They like, hey, you got to focus on what you can control every single day because it will eat you up. And it's interesting because I had our CEO recently who was like, he referred to it as like baggage on a plane. you just got to take a carry on. You've got to stop checking the baggage every single time. Because I was in that mode where if I got a new boss or a new CEO, I felt like I had to get them up to speed on my story.
Like, let me tell you, right? Sit down, kid, right? Like, here's everything I've been through and you need to know my history and like what I've and it was like there with each new person, they're like. That was like years, fucking years ago, man, what are you grinding gears over? You've got to let that shit go. Yeah. ⁓
Jeff Allen (43:10)
For you, man,
that's a huge thing that you were able to kind of work through that. And, you know, I can remember some conversations we had over that time. So I think that's awesome, man. And you're right. I think that, yeah, I think it's easy to kind of hold on to that stuff. But as I said, more interesting to find a way past it.
Tom Hootman (43:16)
You and I had a couple of them, yeah.
We've got a few minutes left. want to ask you at least one more question. And it's more like advice because I'm realizing my running joke has been like I have an amazing team at Mixtape, phenomenal people. And I joke that like I should have stayed closer to like the like the entry level and one to two year people because everyone I talked to and everyone I know all these amazing people, but they're all like senior directors and up and we've worked together. Right. Or they've moved on and they have 10 years experience now.
And they are pretty expensive. But like, there's, if someone's out there with one or two years experience and they're like on your team or they're in an agency with 200 or 2000 employees, like, what would you tell them? Like what advice would you give them on like, and you can't say just do great client work because that may not get noticed, but like, how do they make their mark and like, find the, create those chance opportunities to shine and move up?
Jeff Allen (44:19)
Yeah, that's a big question. I'll give you like three answers. So the first is if you do great client work, I'll usually hear about it, even at a big agency, even with 200 and whatever clients. I read our Net Promoter Score feedback from clients. I get emails and have meetings with them.
Tom Hootman (44:23)
Sweet.
Jeff Allen (44:40)
team leads and more senior folks call out when they see great work being done. ⁓ people, it's not to say every piece of good work or every person that's doing good work I hear about, but I hear about a lot of people doing great work every day through all these different ways. And I try to acknowledge it, but can't necessarily always. And so even if you're not hearing from someone on that specific great work, just know, there's a bit of trust the process that if you're doing great work, it shows up and it's obvious. ⁓
Tom Hootman (44:45)
That's really good.
Jeff Allen (45:09)
The second piece
of that and part of why I see that is be someone who showcases other people's great work.
I never get tired of getting a note from someone that said, hey, I want to brag on so and so. They were just on this call and it went so gray. Or this person helped me through this problem or whatever, whatever it is. And it's like two dopamine hits in one. It's the dopamine hit of like, you heard about a person who's doing great work, which is amazing. And then second of all, someone else cared enough and also is doing great work and highlighting someone else's work. there's a double hit of all of that. And I think really highly of people who are invested in other people's success.
and want to share that with me. And so that's a big piece. you know, do the great work, acknowledge other people's great work. And then the third is something that will always really, three things that will always be true for every agency. And this is in the age of AI, only the more important.
It's three things that will always be really valuable if you do. First is subject matter expertise. Whatever you're doing, if you're in sales, if you're in SEO or PPC, if you're in finance, whatever it is, be a student of your craft and really care about it and learn and study it and know it better than anyone else. Relationships with clients. It's something that you've always been phenomenally well and...
I try to emulate very poorly. Build relationships, care, get to know them, be interested, come through for them. Come through from in tough spots, listen to them and act and course correct if need be. But relationships with clients and of course coworkers goes a really long way and then reputation within the industry.
So if you're one or two years, that's maybe blogging, maybe sharing some thought leadership pieces with the marketing team, getting on LinkedIn and sharing thoughts. Build a bit of a reputation industry. If you do those things, AI doesn't replace any of those three things. In fact, like something like expertise only becomes more important because you need to tell, it hallucinating or is it not? Or is the output of it good or is it not good? So these things are only kind of reinforced as our industry changes.
Tom Hootman (47:01)
Hmm.
The second note you made about showcasing other people's work is to me that like I hadn't considered that and I think it immediately made me think of the people on my teams through the years who were really great. They trusted again, another theme trust. They trust that if they showcase others work that that's also illustrative of their impact. Like the impact you have as like a director or a
group account director or VP isn't just look at what I did. It's like your job is not to do the work, it's to ensure the work gets done. And the people who had the strongest teams that were cross-functional, that were pushing them out of the way were the best leaders. But you have to trust that if you ever work in an org where you do that and they promote that person and fire you,
then you're very lucky because that's a horrible organization to work for and that should never ever happen. So there's an element of that, like that's worth its weight in gold. that's, it's subject matter expertise in its own right. And I do think if I can call it, like there's an area where agencies miss, they double down on subject matter expertise. And this is, I'm biased as a client guy who hasn't been a subject matter expert, someone who's really been great with clients and teams.
I think there's a tendency to over-index subject matter expertise and not recognize management and development and client relationships as its own subject matter. Because I've seen brilliant people who are 10x smarter than me, there's a lot of them out there, who bift it on client calls where I'm like, all you got to do is make friends for a living. Like, how is this hard? But then I don't take, that's me again being Midwestern and downplaying how hard it is to be yourself and be authentic and just...
Jeff Allen (48:48)
was gonna say, man, you're great at it. I mean, you are great at it. And I struggle with it be honest. Like I'm awkward. I always think of the, on the big short where very early in the movie, Michael Burry is talking about how his wife says he's awkward and he's like, ask more questions. We get to know people better. And so it cuts to a scene of him interviewing someone and he said, that's a nice haircut. Did you do it yourself?
Tom Hootman (48:52)
Okay.
Jeff Allen (49:10)
And I'm like, that's a question I think I would ask, at all honesty. I am not great at small talk. I'm not always comfortable with it, but I can say whenever I've dared to venture out my comfort zone and do that, it's almost always been a positive thing.
Tom Hootman (49:25)
You beat yourself up
too much. that, I mean, the track you've been on, the success you've had, I think speaks volumes to that. I think you, one of the things I've always appreciated about you is that the level of development, it shifts. Like you were developing me as a leader 11 years in, just as much as you were two years in.
And the things I learned. almost like as you moved up the ladder, I felt like you were always kind of reaching back and teaching me the lessons and acknowledging the things that I was great at. Or you felt that I was great at. And then, you know, the shout out I always give to to like you were always telling me that we were so close for so long that I didn't believe you. I was like, it's bullshit. Like he's just my friend. Yeah. Cornfelt Jeremy Cornfeldt actually pulled me aside and was like, why are you trying to talk about why are you trying to sound like everyone else? You're not a marketer. I'm not a marketer.
your job is to communicate and build the relationship and just be yourself. So just be yourself. You have the easiest job here, just do it. And that was like a lesson that sank in with me immediately because we talked about earlier like the pitches and how I suck at pitches. I'm not great at pitches because they are, it's like a Broadway show. There's 10 people, there's talk track, there's like...
remembering your lines and memorizing them, but delivering them, but not sounding like you deliver them. And then there's and I just couldn't get comfortable in that environment. people were like, why are you so like freaked out? And I was like, I'm overthinking it. Whereas like a conversation like this or like a small pitch, I'm just like looser about it when I don't practice to the point even that there were two announcement videos for mixtape digital and Alaina, we had to do reshoots and I did them here without Alaina in the room.
And Corey and I recorded him and he was like, first one's great, second one's great, they're both awesome. And the first one I'd memorize my lines. And then the second he was asking me the interview questions that Alaina had asked before and I was just answering them. And Alaina was like, that second one is 10X better because you didn't memorize anything. And it's that goes back to like, as I've gotten more comfortable doing video content and stuff like this, like the one take Tom like I don't care anymore. Like it's been two months and I'm already like, ⁓ fuck it, it works, print it.
Jeff Allen (51:30)
Well, it does work, man. You're doing great. I love watching it. I'm super impressed and really happy for you, man. I knew it.
Tom Hootman (51:32)
Thank you.
Stop it, it's a love fest.
Jeff, thank you very much for being the first guest. It means the world to me. I really appreciate it. You're awesome,
Jeff Allen (51:43)
pleasure and same to you dude.
Tom Hootman (51:45)
We'll have you on many, times, but only when other guests cancel. You're gonna be like, you better have your cocktail, because I'm a screwdriver in. it'll be one of those things where I'm like, I need you today at 2 p.m. We gotta do another podcast. It'll be like a tonight show when like, they would call in the guest host like to come in and do it. Just hang on the back. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Take care.
Jeff Allen (51:48)
I so, and I'll have my cocktail next time.
hang out in the background and be ready when you need me dude. Thanks man appreciate it.
Bye.