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Seth Baumgartner and Jason Van Leuven open the mics for your crop steering and cultivation questions.
Kaisha [00:00:06]:
What's up, gromies? Welcome to AROYA office hours, your source for free cannabis cultivation education. I'm your moderator, Kaisha, and this is episode 103. Shout out to our live viewers on the hangout, on YouTube and on Instagram, and to everyone tapping in on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for your support. And if you like the pod, drop us a review. We appreciate the feedback. Seth and Jason, how are you guys?
Jason [00:00:32]:
Good. It's been a few episodes since we're together here and we're.
Kaisha [00:00:37]:
The team is in the house. That's how we want it. Yes. But we're going to kick things off a little bit differently today. We've got an overview from our client success manager, Rachel. Rachel, what you got going on today?
Rachel [00:00:49]:
Hey, thanks, Kaisha. Yeah. My name is Rachel. I work for the client success department. So today I wanted to go over cleaning your tarot sensors. So these guys, you know, they get a little crunchy around the bottom there. If you see any salt residue, I really like to use a little bit of dish soap and a sponge. Nothing too crazy.
Rachel [00:01:18]:
You know, you can use a scrubby. And don't use any of those so's pads. They're a little too much. If it's really on there, you can soak it overnight and just give it a good rinse, dry it off, you're good to go. One other point I like to make is about the climate stations. The climate station doesn't like to get sprayed, so make sure when you're doing any IPM events to put it in the little bag, kill the bugs, not the sensors. So that's my tips and tricks for today. Thanks, Kasia.
Rachel [00:01:57]:
Take it away, Rachel.
Kaisha [00:01:58]:
You rock. It is so nice to have you on here. Thank you for dropping those best practices. We do get those questions from time to time. Seth and Jason, anything you want to add to Rachel's overview?
Seth [00:02:10]:
I think she nailed it. Thank you, Rachel.
Kaisha [00:02:12]:
We appreciate you, Rachel. All right, we're going to leave you to it, but we hope that you're going to be coming on the show a little bit more frequently so we can talk, share the updates with the folks. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel [00:02:23]:
Heck, yeah.
Kaisha [00:02:23]:
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming. All right, Seth and Jason, you ready for our first question?
Jason [00:02:29]:
I think so.
Seth [00:02:29]:
Let's jump in.
Kaisha [00:02:30]:
All right, guys, let's do it. All right, so we got this one from Billy on Instagram. He writes, we have a room that we might have grown our plants a little too big for the substrate. We are in 1.25 gallon coco. We veg for a similar amount of time as normal, about ten to twelve days with strains we've run many times, but this time a reduced plant count from around ten to twelve light to nine per light. Now that we've gotten into the ripening stage, it is tough to keep the drybacks from being too extreme. Without a late supplemental p one shot, 2 hours before lights off, could we reduce the total photo period for the last week or so to slow the dry back some so that we could just have one irrigation window each day? What do you guys think?
Jason [00:03:18]:
I mean theoretically you could. Don't think it's going to benefit you as much as doing that supplemental p one irrigation that you have been doing p two or. Yeah, it's still a p one type kind of thing because we're not maintaining.
Seth [00:03:34]:
Yep, yep. So that late afternoon little maintenance shot.
Jason [00:03:37]:
Some people might call it a p three because we're actually in the dryback period so. But yeah, you know, it sounds like you've kind of answered your own question there. Moving to a little bit larger media is going to help in the future. For this run. I'd stick with those, uh, those 2 hours before lights off. Supplemental irrigation is to get you, keep you out of the really low water content range, especially if you're in Rockwell. Um, you know, if you're in coco then uh, then you might be able to get away with, with getting down there a little ways. Maybe you know, 25 30% not, not going to drastically affect the, the plant at that point.
Jason [00:04:13]:
Yeah.
Seth [00:04:14]:
And you know, you mentioned reducing photo period. Um, you can have some success with that. Just introducing like not necessarily a shortened photo period, but reduced ppFD. So if you're running a 1000, 1100, maybe peeling it back to like 7800 to reduce a little bit of transpiration and help slow that down so you're not pushing quite as extreme of a dry back, especially if we're looking at, you know, late week seven lake wheat, eight on a eight or nine week cycle. You know, we're not leaving a whole lot on the table by reducing the light too much at that point. And that might be a tool you can use to help you get comfortably through this round and then understand next round that like hey, in this particular situation we made this change, we reduced plant count, we got bigger plants. Okay, is the next move to potentially up the media size from the 1.25 to say potentially a two gallon because hey, we got a better ratio of a to b bud off of this new arrangement or did it really not pay off in the end. And maybe somewhere in between your current plant count and your old plant count was maybe more effective.
Seth [00:05:21]:
So really using that crop registration to evaluate the experiment, I think, is what's important here.
Jason [00:05:28]:
Yeah. And specifically with ripening, I did want to bring up the idea of water use efficiency wue in relationship to CO2 concentration. So if you do typically cut your CO2, um, you may actually keep it up in this specific situation just to make sure that you're supplying enough CO2 to keep your water use efficiency high. So, you know, as we've talked about before, um, CO2 is one of those interesting things where we're, we're actually, when we have a high enough concentration that, um, stomates don't have to transpire quite as much, the gas exchange can be reduced. Cause we're able to get a higher concentration of CO2 in with, uh, with less breaths from the plant, if you will.
Kaisha [00:06:13]:
Outstanding. Thank you guys so much for that. All right, good luck out there, Billy, thank you for your question. Excuse me. We got another question here in the hangout from someone named seth. Seth is asking how long after an initial rooting in period would you wait before starting the rooting process again with a slab? I'd like to aim for a three week veg using four inch Rockwell blocks onto uni slabs. And I'm not sure how to time it where they get the fast dryback advantage of the four inch, but still have time to fill out in. Fill out the slab before flipping.
Kaisha [00:06:47]:
Thanks. What do you guys think?
Seth [00:06:50]:
There's a couple things to discuss here. You know, number one, taking advantage of that intermediate four by four by four, or even four by four by two and a half is a great option. Helps you really nail that veg. As far as timing goes, we're usually looking at a ten to a 14 day veg before putting it on a slab with certain strains, maybe going a little longer, but typically not. And then when you do transplant that onto the slab or your unislab, there's a certain action going on. So, basically, the plants producing all of its auxin out in the outer tips of the branches and pushing that down into the roots as it's rooting in. So a plant that's rooting into that slab, especially after that initial five to seven day period, is going to have a lot more vigorous growth than a plant that was just in a one or a two gallon waiting to get that bigger irrigation. So, as counterintuitive as it seems, you know, flipping a pretty small plant compared to what you might be used to in a past before running a situation or a stacking situation like this.
Seth [00:07:50]:
Uh, as counterintuitive as that seems, um, it actually works for you quite well.
Jason [00:07:54]:
I mean, to some degree. The, you know, the question was asking, all right, how long do we need, uh, after we've rooted our clone into our four by, um. Uh, how long do we need until we can start reading that cube onto the slab? And, and like I was saying, it's somewhat constrained because we absolutely need to prioritize the rooting in practices at each of those steps. Right. So uh, typically getting from uh, a clone plug to being rooted into a four by. We're looking at three days, maybe four days, um, in. In pretty good conditions. And uh, then we need to obviously, you know, optimize what our, our veg growth looks like.
Jason [00:08:30]:
Um. Uh, I would maintain, you know, looking at two crop registration factors. Uh, the first being how, you know, how much root mass are, are we seeing out of the bottom of that four by four? And, and then obviously what is our ideal plant height coming out of veg, which really has to be tracked from a previous harvest group and, and either modified or kept the same for, for this next growth cycle? Um, I, I usually shoot for, you know, around say 60% of the bottom of that cube showing exposed roots. And one of the things kind of here to think in mind is that we're working with a lot of factors. Obviously we have the constraints of a schedule. We have a constraints of how this genetic operates and then we also have the constraints of what I was talking about. So plant height and amount of roots. So really making sure we're balanced throughout that phase is really important.
Jason [00:09:19]:
By the time we get to flower, typically in flower, we'll see, you know, typically five to seven days and uh, for that four by four to be well rooted into the slab and at that point then we can start our typical irrigations.
Seth [00:09:33]:
Yeah, I think the thing to highlight there too is like the day one of transplant, throwing that cube on the slab. That is day one of flour. We're not really looking at allowing for a root in period before that. While in some situations that, you know, may work out with your schedule, um, it's semi beneficial, but not necessarily beneficial enough to make a difference in terms of rooting that plant in for let's say three to five days before flipping compared to having an extra three to five days available in your flower room to, you know, crank out more crops over the coming years.
Jason [00:10:07]:
Yeah, and actually, you know, kind of kind of great that we're on this topic. I did a diagram last week of, uh, of a fairly general type of rooting in irrigation schedule. And, uh, one thing I did want to mention is, you know, if you are using the arroyo system, it's really good to make sure your sensors are in the new media that you're trying to root into. And that's the one that we're watching for, to get lower in water content before we start our irrigations. And nice thing there is, as we watch the water content decrease on a daily basis, we should typically see the rate that it decreases get faster. And that's simply because we have more roots into that lower substrate. And so the plants transpiring more out of that block, more water loss due to transpiration. That's a great indicator that our rooting practice is working.
Seth [00:10:55]:
Yeah, I think something important to recognize too, or realize. And I think it's really cool because you can watch this. If you have two sensors, you can leave one in the top block and one in whatever your lower media is. Generally, if you're putting a four by four by four, or four by four by two and a half on top of a slab or a one gallon coco or whatever, once that's touching the other media, your water content in that top block will drop from, let's say, 60% down to 30% to 40% pretty immediately. And that's just because gravity is helping that water move through a conductive media down below. So that's really what we're looking for, is that plant to latch in, you know, later in its life cycle. It's really not pulling much water, if any, from that top block. That was a vector to get to the final media.
Seth [00:11:37]:
And also, you know, part of the reason that the, the slab shape works so well, for instance, is that our plants are taking up water in the last, you know, inch or two inches of that root mass. So we're not really taking up water absolutely everywhere. And we want to optimize root growth in the place in the media where water content is the highest. So that in mind, um, if your plants in your top block aren't latching into whatever your bottom media is, whether it's a slab or a one or two gallon coco, you're not going to see that reduction in the volumetric water content in that lower block. And that's going to help you understand whether you're overwatering, underwatering, or potentially having some other issues like root or incoming plant health, that are affecting their ability to actually root into your final flowering media.
Jason [00:12:27]:
And it's actually great that there is that conductivity between the top block and the bottom block because that's what's really helping those roots follow our rooting and irrigation down into the bottom block and help us stay from an overwater situation where those roots can stagnate. Yeah. You know, kind of another thing to kind of think about is when, when we are doing two medias like this, we kind of have to consider at some point the lower media, really the root zone media. So if we're basing our shots on the volumetric water content, then really we kind of only need to consider the bottom substrate at a certain point. It's kind of a tricky subject because really, as the farther in the cycle that we get, the less that the top block influences are our root zone. A lot of that top block we'll just see as plant root crown once it becomes more mature.
Seth [00:13:24]:
Yeah, in a large plant, you can pretty much just grab that four by four and break it in half. And there's not really any roots left. There's just a massive stem going through it.
Kaisha [00:13:34]:
Dan, that's a great overview. Thank you for that. Seth, this was a really good question. We appreciate you dropping that in the hangout. If you have any follow ups, feel free to let us know and also keep us posted on how everything's going on your end over there to keep it going. We got a live question here from YouTube Carlito posted in Oregon. Indoor hemp grower here ran a couple different runs with floraflex coco, one with white plastic and the other with black plastic. The one with black shade cloth dried back faster, but the white plastic had healthier roots, which is better.
Kaisha [00:14:09]:
Seem to get proper dry back with the plastic ones. What do you all think?
Jason [00:14:14]:
So it sounds like the black ones were a mesh. So obviously on the market right now, probably some of the two most common Coco medias are the. I don't know if they've cellophane or PC or whatever, the non porous plastic, and that's the white ones that he's talking about. And then in this case, the mesh ones.
Kaisha [00:14:34]:
Yeah, you're right. I read that wrong. It was a black shade cloth.
Jason [00:14:38]:
Perfect. That's exactly what we needed to hear. So when we think about that, probably some of the biggest differences are really going to be. And the reason that he's seeing an increase in dryback, uh, of the, the mesh ones is simply due to exposed root zone. Um, they're going to see more evaporation. So when you think about all right. Where does, where does water go when we put it in the red zone? Well, it goes to one runoff, um, which we should be able to easily calculate by taking some runoff readings and some of that registration information. And then the other two that aren't quite as easy to calculate is evaporation and then transpiration.
Jason [00:15:13]:
Um, so that's probably going to be one of the biggest differences. Um, a little bit more access to oxygen. Um, that's what I got, yeah, I.
Seth [00:15:25]:
Mean, you nail it there basically between evaporation and then the fact that your roots fill out the, uh, mesh pot in a different way, we do see a bigger dry back. And that's also why, you know, if we're talking about, um, you know, some of your smaller one gallon and sub one gallon, but high water holding capacity, cocos, that's what helps make that possible, is running it in a mesh bag and achieving that great or dry back. As far as which one's better.
Kaisha [00:15:51]:
You.
Seth [00:15:51]:
Can have great success with both. It depends on what type of strain you're trying to grow, how big of a plant you're trying to go to grow and what your goals are. And I think that's the biggest understanding is that with that mesh bag we get more air pruning of the roots, more splitting, more direct paths from the root tips to the plant, whereas in the plastic bag we get a little bit more root binding, a little bit more circling. So effectively you can probably grow slightly bigger plant in the mesh bag at the expense of potentially having trouble ripening later on in flower, whereas in the plastic bag we're getting a little better water holding retention. And maybe a good way to compare it is running, you know, a slab or a unislab versus something like a GR 40 from Grodan, which is an open top and open bottom block that, you know, has a lot higher evaporation rate. The wrap on the block is typically what's helping hold in that moisture and rockwool, and the same goes for coco. So all things considered, um, which one do you prefer running? What are your strains like? If it's a more generative leaning strain, we might look at running a well, if it's really, really generative to the point that we can bulk it a lot and still get it to finish. The mesh bag might be the hot ticket.
Seth [00:17:04]:
If we have something that's a little more finicky and we actually do have to push that generative ripening going with something like the plastic bag, that's going to give us a little bit longer dry back window a little bit better water holding capacity and efficient water use, it might be a lot, might be the ticket within the same media size, given the two options to allow us to finish that plant easier.
Jason [00:17:24]:
Yeah. And since he did specify the colors of the pots in here, maybe I'll bring up the, you know, the impacts of solar radiation on substrate. It can be very minimal. It might have really no influence in this specific situation. But in certain situations, you know, black pots are going to absorb quite a bit more heat depending on how much light penetration we see down there. If, I guess if it's a mesh black one, there's probably the evaporative cooling that might be keeping the substrate in the same temperature, but that is also going to increase the amount of evaporation we're seeing from that specific substrate in this case.
Seth [00:18:01]:
Yeah, that's a good point. There's a reason we see white pots and white trays in the industry versus just black, especially in the greenhouse industry, you know, where we've got a lot of solar radiation coming through there. And in certain cases, the difference between a white and a black tray and white and black pot might actually be pretty appreciable. In most indoor growing situations, though, it's not generally a huge problem.
Kaisha [00:18:25]:
That was great. Thank you guys for that. We talked a lot about pot size making a big difference, so it's cool to kind of talk about pots material and color as well. All right, well, Carlito, good luck out there. Thank you so much. We got a lot of comments coming in on YouTube. I'm going to go ahead and read this next question here. Hunter posted.
Kaisha [00:18:43]:
I heard you say you like to get your p one out of the way in about an hour. What shot size or intervals in between achieves this? Then what does p two look like? Shot size and interval intervals to stack generative.
Jason [00:18:58]:
So kind of my default, my very basic for generative p one is to keep it as simple as possible, is in irrigation every 15 minutes, do four of them right. If, you know you can do more shots, then that's fine, too. But at the very least, I like to do one irrigation every 15 minutes in order to get up to field capacity. So if we want to do some, some pretty easy math there, then we can talk about being, all right. If yesterday's dry back was 20% and we want 5% runoff, then we need to get 25%, uh, refreshment and irrigation for our p one. And if we want to break that up into, uh, you know, five irrigations, because it's easier to say a 5% shot, then that's what we'll do. Um, and probably, you know, you could do five irrigations, you could do one every 15 minutes. Being at an hour and 15 minutes versus an hour is not going to make a huge effect.
Jason [00:19:52]:
You could cut it down to eleven or twelve minutes if you really wanted to push to stay in that hour. But some of those really minute differences aren't going to play a huge impact on how significantly we are crop steering. And that's simply because irrigation window is, if we're only tweaking it, maybe 5% of what the total day is, then it's going to be probably insignificant in the long run of the plant.
Seth [00:20:18]:
Yeah, I think we should dive into why that 15 minutes is important though. And part of the big reason there is because that's a really average time around most medias that we can say, hey, as long as you put on a shot that's, you know, generally under 5%, and especially if it's 3% or under, we're not going to see any channeling in between those irrigation events, which is we, we don't want to be rinsing the media while we're trying to achieve field capacity. Because, you know, number one, that's not helping us achieve our EC goals necessarily. Number two, that's just a waste of water. And also, if we're running that water off and we're counting on it to stay in the media, suddenly our calculations and ability to hit field capacity really aren't going to make sense when we say, hey, we're putting on a liter of water a day, but we're not hitting field capacity. Well, we have some inefficiency in that p one run. So what we're really looking at is how media specific, if we go back to, let's say, growing in a five gallon, 70 30 mix coco perlite, you go hit that thing with water once every other day, maybe for the first three to four weeks, and you just give it one huge shot. But part of that's because that media can actually take that volume of water.
Seth [00:21:26]:
Let's say it's three liters or five liters, it can take that and actually move it around without running it off. It can, it can wick the water around before gravity pulls it completely through the pot. When we're talking about a one gallon or a two gallon media, gravity is a lot more impactful on how quickly that, that media can actually wick that water around and retain it without running off. So those, uh, you know, not only shot durations or volume that we're delivering, but also the time between vary based on the media by how quickly it can actually absorb that water. So as a grower, when you're working with, uh, you know, hopefully in the Rockwool space, you've got really consistent media. But for all of our coco growers out there, um, if you're really good at what you do, and the people you buy coke for coco from are really good at what they do, they're probably going to have some supply chain issues at some point because they have a good product and they're selling out of it. Right. So you might get hit with having to use a media that you're unfamiliar with, whether it's switching from Coco to Rockwool or just different brands of coco.
Seth [00:22:28]:
And it's, it's really important to understand that you can have really similar success with some of these different medias and that, you know, some of these same driving factors are really what's responsible for your results. So if you're used to growing in, let's say, a one Gallon media that gets 55% to 65%, and you're hit with some supply chain issues, and someone says, hey, I can get you all these, I can't get you any of the one gallons you want, but I can get you all these two gallons, you can get really good performance out of a two gallon that has a lower water holding capacity as a one gallon. You just gotta kind of try to compare them and see where you can make things, apples to apples and where you can. And that's where shot size and duration are going to come in. So some, for instance, in a two gallon that held 45% water capacity, hitting that 1 hour generative window is going to be really, really easy. If you've been used to trying to hit it in a two hour window or a 1 hour window with a one gallon pot, for instance. So it's just important to understand that, you know, we're really looking at trying to minimize that irrigation time and maximize that dryback time, and that we've got a few different media factors that are at play here that, when taken into account, can be worked with easily.
Jason [00:23:39]:
Yeah, and kind of another thing that, that impacts how quickly our substrate wicks is usually more porous substrates are going to wick not as well. Right. So if we do have that chunky coco, it's very important to be following these, um, these processes. Um, and, you know, like as Seth was saying, if, you know, if we're used to a one gallon at 60% water, holding capacity. That's 0.6 gallons of water available in there. If we need to change to a two gallon, like the next best alternative would be that 45% water holding capacity because then we're at 0.9 gallons, right. Somewhere like a third more rather than actually twice as much water that can be held in that substrate.
Seth [00:24:22]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the important thing is at the end of the day, your pot size isn't really actually determined by how big is your pot, but how much water can it hold and how quickly will it dry back and lose that water?
Jason [00:24:35]:
Not a third, 50% more, not 100% more. Sorry.
Seth [00:24:40]:
No, no. That's, that's, that's a good point, though. I mean, that's, I think that's something that's somewhat lost in translation when people are talking about the advantages and disadvantage of different media. And sometimes all it boils down to is the two are actually quite similar. One of them you can easily go way more generative in or ride the perfect balance for the strain and size of plant. Your type you're trying to grow and one's just too small or too big.
Kaisha [00:25:08]:
So much good advice. Thank you guys for that. Hunter, thank you so much for your question. Keep us posted. Good luck. All right, I'm gonna keep it moving. More YouTube comments here. Golden child post.
Kaisha [00:25:19]:
They write, I routinely see my washout EC being higher than my in pot sensors by a couple EC when shooting for ideal EC ranges. What value would you trust more runoff EC or the sensor reading?
Jason [00:25:36]:
So, you know, sometimes I see this and a lot of times it just has to do with, you know, the sensors averaging about one liter volume of influence in that substrate itself. And a lot of times if I've got, especially in cases where I don't have very much runoff in volume, it's going to be pushing out some of the most salt saturated solution right out of the bottom of the pot. And so this would probably be that instance in which case I would be using the root zone EC numbers for steering.
Seth [00:26:06]:
Yeah, absolutely. Our runoff EC can be, you know, influenced by a few things. What's your input EC? Obviously that should be different than your runoff EC. But if your input EC is variable and we're actually seeing some channeling in that p one, are you confident that you have a true runoff sampler? Do you have some channeling going through that's altering it? That can be one factor depending on what your baseline Ec is in the pot and really what we're looking at at the end of the day, is what is that value in the pot. So runoff is one thing. It's great. We can see different correlations between it being higher or lower than what we're seeing in the root zone for various reasons. But what we actually care about at the end of the day is what is the root zone actually experienced experiencing what's going on in the rhizosphere? Because, you know, for instance, if I, uh, push a huge irrigation or a lot of irrigation just to get runoff to get a reading, um, as we've discussed ad nauseam on, on this at podcast, like, you're not going to get a true runoff reading until you've slowly reached saturation through a true p one event.
Seth [00:27:07]:
So if I'm just trying to get runoff for the sake of testing, there's a good chance that that really isn't representative of what's going on. And I had to create waste to get that reading right. So personally, I think we're, I always go back to the in root zone reading, and I think Jason can agree as well. That's, that's kind of the whole point of utilizing that technology. This allows us to take what we're seeing in our runoff readings and then say, here's what the root zone says. What can we correlate from that? And at the end of the day, usually it's that, hey, we push too much water too fast. That's what influences runoff reading. Or, you know, more importantly for me is looking at ph and seeing how the ph in the root zone is doing, because that is one thing that is very difficult to measure in situ.
Seth [00:27:55]:
And, you know, most, well, I can't think of a single ph meter out there that allows you to very, very accurately stab a root zone and measure ph compared to liquid sampling.
Jason [00:28:07]:
Yeah. You know, another reason here is root zone dynamics. So just the simple resolution, if I take a snapshot of a day, you know, I get, okay, one runoff reading for looking at what the EC is now, I have to generalize everything that's going on in that root zone with one reading. Whereas if I have a substrate sensor in there getting readings every three minutes. And so I can absolutely characterize, this is what's happening after I feed. This is what's happening during dry back. And this is what's happening before I feed.
Seth [00:28:38]:
Yeah. It allows us to confirm any hypotheses that we have based on that runoff. Right. You can say, hey, I'm getting higher EC, lower EC. I'm theorizing that it's feeding more or feeding less. But what is that EC in solution actually doing throughout that time period? So it takes some guessing out and allows us to really narrow down on overfeeding, underfeeding ph drift, like, what is the true culprit? And, you know, that's, that's part of why we really hammer down on not flushing is because that's, uh, at the end of the day, flushing is kind of like an old school crutch. That's something we resorted to when things got way too out of line. And we're trying to reset a balance.
Seth [00:29:19]:
Right. But moving forward into levels of higher and higher efficiency, not just in terms of, like, growing the most best product, but also general water efficiency. In agriculture, we're looking at operating the most efficient system possible. And there's a lot of ways you can use irrigation strategy to mitigate problems before they happen. And one cool thing about cannabis production, even though we're in a box where really got to maximize what's going on in this room, we're getting so much data and turning over so many crops so quickly that if we have a situation that say, hey, we've got EC building too much, or actually it's not building enough, and we have a ph drop, hey, that happened the last three runs on this train. Let's, let's adjust the feed schedule to mitigate that, rather than going with flushing, which we know is probably, if we have to try to reset that osmotic stasis and that osmotic balance in the root zone and also reset the nutrient balance ph, like that's going to shock the plant, we're going to lose some efficiency. So we can really take advantage of that, you know, constantly accumulating data to make better choices the next time. And I think the big challenge is making every run as close to the same as possible so you can make those decisions intelligently.
Seth [00:30:36]:
If you have ten variables every run that are constantly being changed, it's going to be really hard to pinpoint what made the difference.
Jason [00:30:44]:
If we look at other agriculture industries, mature agriculture industries, we know this stuff is absolutely key to stay competitive in the long run. As some markets in cannabis consolidate and price per pound drops and or stabilizes, it's just super important to consider how can we reduce our bottom line so that we can maintain an operating profit.
Kaisha [00:31:11]:
That's really it. At the end of the day, we got to do this big picture thinking. Yep, awesome. All right, great. Love that explanation. Okay, going to keep it moving. We got somebody else who posted about growing, they're growing some CBD indie bud writes I'm growing CBD THC under 0.3 and need to cut some genetics on day 49 so they don't go over that. What are my best options for second defoliation? Two gallon coco, seven plants per light.
Kaisha [00:31:38]:
First defo on day 14. What do you guys think?
Jason [00:31:44]:
I mean I do it when's convenient before harvest. I probably wouldn't worry about necessarily a second defoliation throughout the grow cycle as long as you did a good job and you've got significant amount of light. So if your canopy spacing is decent, I'd probably just do the pre harvest cleanup. What are you thinking?
Seth [00:32:03]:
I mean I probably wouldn't touch them until about day 21 when they're done.
Jason [00:32:06]:
With stretch for the first default.
Seth [00:32:09]:
For the first default, yeah.
Jason [00:32:10]:
Yeah.
Seth [00:32:11]:
And then if you're limited to that, day 42. Yeah. But five days before harvest or something, just so you know, you're, you know, you're not dripping SAP on your buds. And then maybe evaluate honestly whether you need to do that one. You know, in this case we're, we're, we're making the compromise and cutting the plants before we hit that non hemp category. Right. So quality is a certain thing we're leaving on the table somewhat. Um, we might want to look for maximum plant growth and not necessarily even doing a massive default.
Seth [00:32:37]:
If you've skirted it up and done the best you can to manage that canopy so you get optimal bud production, that might be the best you can do. And then the next question is. Yeah, how, how is your drying room? Do we need to get rid of all that leaf mass because it makes drying more difficult? Is that where we're at with the drying room capacity? Um, because that's, that's always something to evaluate. Right. Like if we can dry with some leaves on, that's saving a lot of labor right before harvest because it's really easy to pull those leaves off in the bucking process. Not a whole lot of extra labor there.
Kaisha [00:33:10]:
Thank you guys for those considerations. Thank you indie buds for your question. All right, we got this one from Rocketbud Farms. They wrote feeding vegetative in week four, but EC keeps on stacking even if input EC is lower. Runoff amount is around 20%. Should I feed with much smaller EC or push more runoff?
Jason [00:33:35]:
Uh, we're gonna have to generalize.
Seth [00:33:38]:
What are you feeding out there? That's, that's part of it. Um, what are we feeding at? And then how deep are those drybacks getting? Like, it's, it's really hard to know without a whole lot more information.
Jason [00:33:53]:
How vegetative are we running?
Seth [00:33:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. How many irrigation window? Yeah. What kind of dryback are we seeing on that vegetative feeding? If it's pretty low dry back, we wouldn't expect to see a whole lot of EC being pulled out. What kind of light levels are we looking at? You know, if we're feeding very heavily but don't have the light levels to support it, we can make the plant tolerate that high EC level without any ill effects, but there's really no point. And then we won't see it feeding nearly as heavily either. And what is the ph looking like in the runoff? Are we getting a lot of channeling as part of that 20% runoff? Is that ph coming out lower than input? Higher than input? Lower. How much lower? Those will all be valuable things to see if that ph is coming off exactly the same or a little higher than your input ph might be looking at an overfeeding and under lit situation for quite some period of time.
Seth [00:34:49]:
Slash, even having low VPD for a long time can influence that too, because we're not getting enough water uptake for the plant to feed as much as it wants to.
Jason [00:34:58]:
Yeah. And you might even look at substrate size. You know, if we're in a too large a substrate, we might just have more nutrients in that substrate than this plant can eat through.
Seth [00:35:09]:
Yeah. You know, as a baseline, um, I always recommend people try taking a drop of cologne into a one gallon pot, flip it at about 15 to 18 inches and see where that lands you. That's a really good baseline. You know, we, we've, there's a bunch of people and called cultivators in general nationwide that run that program and you can get a really good feel on, hey, is this a two x three x five x size plant from flip? Is the one gallon going to be appropriate? And in that size you can be pretty sure you're not going to overgrow it and you can evaluate it from there. I think there's a tendency for some growers to lean towards either too small or too big of a media for a couple different comfort reasons. And it's good to really just baseline things in a really, really standardized middle of the ground fashion and see where you can go from there. Because we always want to start, you know, any of these strategies, at least in my opinion, with promoting quality and plant health first, and then how can we optimize it in expanding on actual yield? Because if you, you know, for instance, flip a three foot tall plant in a one gallon pot and blow it out. Uh, you're not.
Seth [00:36:20]:
You're not also not giving that plant a fair representation of what it could do. Right. And you might accidentally throw something away that actually is really good if you grew it in a two gallon.
Jason [00:36:30]:
This reminds me of, uh, a question that we had, uh, a few weeks ago. It was asking, like, all right, what do we. How do we crop steer for a new genetic, or how do we crop steer when we're. When we're female hunting? And it's a really hard question to answer.
Seth [00:36:43]:
I'm pheno hunting right now. Gently is the answer the answer? You know, I mean, to be honest, guys, I go as generatively as possible when I'm, you know, initially looking at a feno hunt or just running things that aren't clones altogether, because I've got. I know I have a lot of variation. You know, when I put out those seeds, rarely do I get a batch of seeds where they all, you know, germinate and sprout the exact same day in a way that I don't have a little bit of difference right off the bat. So I'm already fighting that from the beginning. And then I know that I want the best, at least for my own personal selections, the best nose that that plant can offer. If I'm only hunting through, let's say, 20 to 50 plants, I'm generally going for quality. And so I want to grow the way that, I know promotes the most quality, which is the most generative possible, generally speaking.
Seth [00:37:32]:
And then, yeah, again, if that doesn't produce the result I want. But I have, you know, in yield, but I have an amazing genetic. Okay, now I'll go back and look at where can we start chipping away and really dialing down this crop steering strategy to get this thing to produce.
Kaisha [00:37:49]:
Oh, my gosh. Amazing. Well, first of all, at some point, Seth, we're going to need to talk about what you're female hunting. So we'll stick a pin in that for another episode. Rocketbud Farms. We appreciate your question, and the guys gave you a bunch of considerations, but if you want to share more information with us so we can get more detailed on your situation, feel free to drop it on YouTube and we'll follow up. All right. This question came in from Instagram.
Kaisha [00:38:13]:
I've never heard it before, so I thought it was a good one. Mike wants to know, when do you start drybacks?
Jason [00:38:20]:
Drybacks just start after the last irrigation.
Seth [00:38:24]:
Yeah, every day. I mean, from essentially, like, once you stick your clone in the cube, we're looking for that first dryback to know when to water. That's the dryback is always our indicator that the plants uptaking water. We can set a percentage of dryback that's equatable to a certain amount of water out of a given media and say, hey, we want to hit, you know, general rule of thumb is about 10% dry back. With any given irrigation strategy, more is often better. But that's a good plant health indicator. So, yeah, if your plants aren't doing any dry back, you're either over watering, you're under dehumidified, or there's another problem that means that your plants aren't uptaking water.
Jason [00:39:06]:
And actually, you know, since we're kind of hitting on lots of, lots of dry back questions, where does water go? Let's make a little diagram here and we'll talk about one of the things that I always look for. It's kind of really obvious to me about how, how well are my plants drinking? How well are they photosynthesizing? So got a whiteboard here.
Seth [00:39:30]:
Let's say you're going to go upside down. That's going to be impressive.
Jason [00:39:33]:
Could have. We're going to draw a little sun. This is going to be our photo period on. And we've got a little, that's a terrible moon. All right. So we, let's say, you know, we've got up to, do we want to do generative or vegetative? Let's do generative just because it's easier. So let's say we've got up to field capacity. No, no davinci on the show here today.
Jason [00:40:06]:
But, um. Yes. So here's our photoperiod on, here's our photoperiod off. Lights off. What I'm trying to show is basically, so we've irrigated this section here is the dryback. Right. How much water loss for our last irrigation to our first irrigation? In a lot of cases, this is over the course of the day. For things that are generative, this can be anywhere from, say, 21 hours to 23 hours for vegetative.
Jason [00:40:35]:
It's also, it's obviously going to be quite a bit shorter because we're running our p two shots throughout the day. But what I like to really look at this inflection point right here. And this is kind of telling me, all right, how, how much photosynthetic activity is the, is the plant doing? Uh, how much water are we losing to photosynthetic activity? So if we see that there's no inflection point here, that means that, uh, this water loss is, is mostly just evaporation, right. It means that, hey, when we're giving light to these plants, transpiration is not acting as a huge contributor to water loss. So we always want to see a good inflection point here briefly after we turn the lights off because that's indicating now, now that we're not photosynthesizing. The difference in the rate of here and here is going to be mostly transpiration with some slight changes in evaporation because we don't have that solar radiation anymore, might be dropping temperatures, that type of stuff. So always take a look at that, uh, that inflection point there. If you don't see it, then, um, take a look at your plants.
Jason [00:41:38]:
We kind of need to dive in and see what's going on with plant health.
Seth [00:41:42]:
Yeah, this is kind of tangential too, if that inflection point isn't, uh, it's slowly getting flatter and flatter. Start looking at your overnight humidity and make sure you are actually maintaining some VPD overnight as well.
Kaisha [00:41:56]:
Well, needless to say, I'm glad Mike asked about when to start drybacks.
Seth [00:41:59]:
So, yeah, one thing we talk about a lot in this, and I can't hammer it home enough, is that dryback percentage can vary so much on what's optimal for different media and different plant sizes. What we're really looking for is that overall time and then the ability to analyze these trends and make sure that the plants are doing what we want them to and we're not just seeing overall percentage change as the goal on the graph.
Kaisha [00:42:28]:
Awesome. Thank you. We love a whiteboard demo. Front row ag. Appreciate the hookup. All right, we're going to keep going. We got this question on Instagram. Ilya dropped it.
Kaisha [00:42:39]:
They write, hello, I've got a question about leaf surface temperature. I know optimally I want to be at 81 82. But whether I run leds or HPS's, I can't get there. I've got to run rooms well into the 85 86 ambient temp just to get close to that. I don't have fans, the leaves directly. And even with under canopy lights, the middle only gets to like 77 78. Any suggestions?
Seth [00:43:07]:
I guess the first thing to look at would be how far your different lights, whether HPS or LED, are away from your canopy. And I've seen a lot of situations where thousand watt HPS or the one to 1000 watt replacement leds are strapped up fairly high, especially if they're on like a five by six light spread or something bigger. So that's definitely one thing to check out. And also why Lee surface temp, you know, we always talk, or often talk about there being, you know, HPS is above ambient room temp and leds below. But that is not always the case. Depending on, you know, how far your lights are away, what your airflow is, and then, yeah, that light spread, you know, you might actually not be getting as much light as you hoped in the situation. That might, might be part of why, you know, for instance, shoving under canopy lighting in there. Inner canopy lighting was a great solution at the time because you're just not getting enough light radiation to those leaves.
Seth [00:44:02]:
As far as focusing on that 80 to 82, I guess I would see how my system is doing up in that 84 to 85 range. I definitely have run into situations where that I think, Jason, you back this, that seems to be appropriate, especially in some of these led grows with bigger rooms and lots of airflow to consider. Um, however, if you're finding yourself pushing above 86, 87 to try to achieve that, you know, 78 to 80 is still pretty good.
Jason [00:44:34]:
Yeah. Um, some things that I would look at. One would be my, my sampling practices. So are my sensors, you know, are they, are they accurate enough? Um, am I using the same sensors like, you know, because obviously if you're doing leaf temp, you're probably using it, uh, either infrared radiometer or some type of thermal camera. Is it decent enough to make you trust some of the numbers that you're seeing and what's the plus or minus on the other equipment that you're using? That might just give you an idea. All right, can I completely trust as I start to get super dialed in with these numbers, a lot of the cheaper infrared radiometers that we see on Amazon and stuff aren't as accurate as we'd hope. Then another thing I would also try to think about or check for sure is what are our CO2 levels? If we're not at sufficient CO2 levels, we can experience that lower water use efficiency that I was talking about. What is keeping leaf surfaces cool is the fact that they're expelling water vapor from the surface via the stomates.
Jason [00:45:43]:
The evaporative cooling effect of that water coming out of there is what's keeping that leaf cooler than its surrounding environment. So if we don't have enough CO2, then we've got more water vapor coming out of that leaf surface which could contribute to lower than expected leaf surface temperatures.
Seth [00:46:03]:
Nailed it there, man.
Kaisha [00:46:05]:
For real.
Jason [00:46:06]:
Give lots of options here to see, investigate.
Seth [00:46:09]:
I think one thing I find helpful too, is getting even spending a little over two grand on like a flir gun or a thermal camera that you can use to visualize averages. Because man, you can spend a lot of time with the laser thermometer getting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of samples, trying to figure out what your average leaf surface temperature is and map it throughout the room, which can be frustrating on some strands versus others. And sometimes having a tool that helps you get a much better understanding quickly of the average, even if it's based on color scale, and knowing that a certain color scale is related to a certain temperature, you can save a lot of time and dial it a little quicker. If you're dealing with canopy unevenness, it might be very, very difficult to ever really get very far using random sampling and even hundreds of points, because now you've got such a wide range of canopy that you're looking at and we've really got to pick like hey, what's our optimal part point of growth in the canopy? What level are we looking at achieving the most biomass production and what are we seeing there? And everything outside of that is always going to be somewhat of an outlier.
Jason [00:47:18]:
So youre saying that taking a thermal reading on each leaf is probably not worth my time.
Seth [00:47:26]:
And thats the thing too. This is one of those tough to attain averages when we talk about plant height. If were looking at population statistics, a lot of us dont have enough plants in our room to actually apply really heavy population statistics to what's going on here in terms of like plant height. That's why it's like, hey, pick one plant, measure it every day, not every, otherwise, you know, measure every single plant in there and then let's do that for years on end to actually get somewhere with this. We're looking for like what can we apply to our practices in this room, in this manufacturing environment to make the plant be the same every time? So there's definitely a breakover point on data collection compared to what is the benefit of those hours and analysis put in.
Jason [00:48:17]:
And I don't get paid by the thermal camera manufacturers, but I pitch these on pretty much every client that I talked to. Not only are they great for leaf surface temperature, but they're awesome for taking a look at equipment maintenance. You know, do I have motors that are overheating? You know, how hot are my ballasts? You know, what, what is the impact of my light levels on leaf surface temperature? Uh, and then also looking at irrigation. So that was one thing that blew my mind was how many clogged emitters. I found, um, using that thermal camera and pointing it at the surface of the substrate while I irrigated.
Seth [00:48:53]:
Running pipes, ducts. There's all kinds of places you can use that to validate blockages, see inefficiencies. And, uh, you know, that's one thing that I know personally going into this. I, you know, watch a facility go throughout a few years and, you know, break some equipment, replace equipment and stuff. And uh, just the to go in and like look at all your fan motors real quick and see if any of them are running hotter than the others. Can really cut down on time and help you really dial in. Like, what is the maintenance schedule we need? You know, something as simple as, hey, that d unit's not working very efficiently. Okay, go in there when it's running, point your camera at it.
Seth [00:49:30]:
Are you getting, you know, way higher temperatures than you expect and what it should be putting out? Slash what the unit should be running? Um, it's a, it's an incredibly valuable tool and I think it's not something that should be underestimated, especially when, you know, just leaf surface temperatures. If you were going to go take 300 samples in one room and then, you know, build averages based on zones in the room and depth, like that's, that's a lot of hours of work versus a fairly quick scan to see what shade of red or purple.
Jason [00:50:01]:
Proactive maintenance.
Seth [00:50:02]:
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Jason [00:50:03]:
Yeah, I was going to say proactive maintenance is always cheaper than reactive maintenance.
Seth [00:50:08]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Kaisha [00:50:13]:
Less stressful.
Jason [00:50:14]:
Yeah.
Kaisha [00:50:16]:
Amazing. All right, that was a great overview. Again, Ilya, we appreciate your question. Thank you so much. All right, we got this question on Instagram. Tricomevalley writes, I just purchased a terrace twelve sensor. How should the chart look? How do I read and interpret the information so I could make a call to say if my EC is too low or too high. For instance, does it mean something when the volumetric water content line goes below the EC line?
Jason [00:50:49]:
First off, intersection of water content and EC line. That's the only reason you see that is because we were using one chart to chart both of them. The actual axis on there is dynamic to what it's displaying. So if you start looking at a larger time frame, there's a chance that they won't even intersect anymore. Um, you can turn one of those lines on or off. And, uh, and so there's, there's really no, um, no meaning to, to when those lines crossed, they're just, they're just sharing a chart.
Seth [00:51:19]:
Yeah, I mean, basically what we should see is glad Jason drew this. This is a water content line. After an irrigation, we should see that water content increase. You stop irrigating, it's drying back throughout the day so we can ride that line. And then with the EC, if your water, if your EC is actually stacking up, we should see that increase towards the end of your dryback. And then, you know, the big thing with EC to look out for, especially if you're just getting into, you know, some of the substrate monitoring. If you've been using runoff samples forever, you might be surprised by how low or high your substrate EC can be. And just remember that like, you know, in most growing situations, up to 1000 ppfd, especially with hps and even most led, we're seeing, you know, a four to a seven range at the wettest point as far as EC is concerned.
Seth [00:52:09]:
And that can drive back to like a ten to 14 without any major concern. Obviously, there's exceptions to those rules with different strains, but those are the typical values we generally see.
Kaisha [00:52:23]:
Amazing. Thank you, guys. All right, we got this question in on YouTube. It is about flushing, but not what you think. Greencoast lax wants to know, do you flush your lines between runs with hypochlorous acid?
Jason [00:52:36]:
It's good practice too. Um, I actually like to have a little bit of hyperchlorous injected on that. Irrigation is throughout the run too. Um, you know, very low amount. It's going to help us, uh, keep our dissolved oxygen levels up and just kind of stay on, on, on a good clean route.
Seth [00:52:53]:
Yeah, I mean, if we're talking about an in between round flush, I mean, you can, you can get pretty wild within the limitations of, uh, degrading your plastic. I mean, personally, because I know im replacing a lot of this stuff regularly. I like to take phosphoric acid or sulfuric, whatever I have and ph down a soak to like 2.5, let it soak and get hot in there and break up a lot of that mineral content that Im going to try to flush out of those lines. And then, you know, also remember that things like hypochlorous acid, green clean, sanidate any peroxide based cleaner. Theyre not exactly a strong acid cleaner. So those are serving to sanitize your irrigation lines, but theyre not actually breaking up a lot of that really hard mineral concretion that can occur over time, even in a relatively well maintained system. You know, if we're talking years in application on one set of pipes, we're going to get some buildup in there, most likely. And if if not, that means we're running enough acidic solution through there that eventually we're probably going to crack the plastic and start degrading it also.
Jason [00:53:54]:
Yeah, just make sure that you do run some actual fertigation through your system before you end up running that next run.
Seth [00:54:03]:
Yep, absolutely. Prime your lines. Make sure you've got nothing in there that's going to react with your incoming fertigation solution. So push it all the way through and make sure you're never pushing any kind of heavy duty cleaning agent onto your plants with the exception, like you said, hypochlorous acid run at appropriate dosages. Uh, usually, like, you know, the 1 gallon range. Even less sometimes is more what we're talking about for constant sanitation in your feeding.
Kaisha [00:54:30]:
All right, there it is. Seth and Jason officially sanctioned flushing practices certain times. Thank you guys for that. All right, we got a few minutes left. This was a great question. We had the bank, so I thought I'd go ahead and ask it. Miles wrote, love this pod question. I've always grown Hps, but my next project is a checkerboard HPS led room.
Kaisha [00:54:53]:
Should I target my climate and Ec just a bit higher? Like 82 degrees, 73 humidity to start veg, 3.2 ec, twelve foot ceilings, so light spread should be fairly uniform. Any other tips for this setup? Never flowered under leds.
Jason [00:55:12]:
It should be a compromise. I've seen some really successful results under checkered board, and I think you're right on. Since we are looking at kind of a spectrum that's combining both the properties of LED and HPS, we'd expect not as drastic of change needed in the environment as we would if we were doing a complete transition from HPS to leds. So I think you're on the right path.
Seth [00:55:37]:
Yeah, I mean, I think some of it's going to depend on whether you have something more like a panel or a one to one led versus, like, bars and the HPS fixtures, I've seen a little bit more successful, I would say, spectrum mixing just with the shapes of the patterns that those different lights put out. Also, this is right back to getting a thermometer and a light meter. Go, go. See what we're looking at there. You know, one of the two big differences between HPS and LED. One with leds, we can typically push an even spread of much higher intensity light even if we're not getting as much penetration. If we're pushing twelve to 1500 ppfd, that's markedly more than 800 to 1000 that we typically see under HPS. And then obviously there's a little bit of spectral difference, but what really.
Seth [00:56:21]:
Well, and the temperature, but really puts it into overdrive is that extra light. So we're going to be tuning it to, hey, what, what kind of PPFD are you actually seeing at your canopy? And, uh, what can your environment do in regards of, in regards of humidity? Like, can you get it down to 65 and 45 at the end of flower? If so, uh, we're going to be looking at, you know, probably running. Right, exactly. Just like Jason said, kind of a hybrid of in between where you'd run your leds and hps, but it's really hard to say without, you know, knowing wind speed would help. But really, those leaf surface temps and knowing what kind of environment the plants are actually living in.
Jason [00:57:00]:
Yeah. So just, you know, clarification, if you really want to get detailed, take a, take a leaf. Or hopefully you have some leaf surface temps before you set up the checkerboard. And now just offset your environment so those leaves surface temperatures match after you've done the checkerboard.
Seth [00:57:16]:
There you go.
Kaisha [00:57:18]:
There you go. I love it. Miles, good luck with your new setup. Keep us posted. Thank you guys for that advice. All right, I got one more question here that I thought we could cover. This came from, hands down, you. This is about our irrigation scheduling feature.
Kaisha [00:57:31]:
They want to know, can you have two separate open sprinklers be controlled by your software? One of my rooms is too far to run wires. Conveniently, having a second open sprinkler module will be much easier.
Jason [00:57:42]:
Yes, absolutely. So you can run up to ten separate open sprinklers on one gateway. If you have more gateways than that, just multiply that by the number of the number of gateways you have by ten, and that's the total number of open sprinklers that you can use.
Seth [00:58:02]:
Yeah. With the cost of the open sprinkler, typically we recommend people just get one open sprinkler unit per room. If you've got more than ten rooms and you're on AROYA, you probably have more than one gateway at that point, you're starting to hit a pretty large number of devices, and part of that is, you know, simplicity. Setting them up. You got one open sprinkler per room. But also if you ever did have one fail, then that's a really quick one to one replacement. It's a pretty low cost level of insurance to just have a few spares around your facility that you can swap out.
Jason [00:58:35]:
Keeps your tele wires a little bit shorter, less likely to confuse them. I was at a facility where it was all run to a main hub and some unfortunate terminations had caused a lot of headache at that site.
Kaisha [00:58:55]:
Unfortunate termination.
Jason [00:58:56]:
So I won't go into too much detail.
Kaisha [00:59:00]:
We won't go into that. On that note, we're going to wrap it up. What a great show. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Seth and Jason, shout out to our special guest, Rachel. Thank you for coming on today. And to our producer, Chris, thank you for another great session.
Kaisha [00:59:14]:
Thank you all for joining us for this week's AROYA office hours. To learn more about AROYA, book a demo at AROYA IO and our team would be more than happy to show you the ins and outs of the ultimate cannabis cultivation platform. If you have any crop steering or cultivation questions you want us to cover. If we didn't get to yours today, don't worry, we'll try again. Drop them anytime in the AROYA app. Email us at salesaroa IO. Send us a DM or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. We want to hear from you.
Kaisha [00:59:38]:
If you're a fan of the pod, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Us. We appreciate the feedback and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel so you never miss an episode. Thanks, y'all, and see you at episode 104. Bye.