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Patsy quit her job. Susannah quit the city. Now they’re on a quest to find the path through the wobbly middle of their careers. This podcast is for every woman who’s asking “What now?”.
Hosted by Susannah de Jager and Patsy Day, The Wobbly Middle features interviews with famed city superwomen, dazzling entrepreneurs and revolutionary midwives and doctors who reveal what they’ve learnt through their own wobbly middle experiences.
[00:00:05] Susannah de Jager: Welcome to Season two of the Wobbly Middle, a podcast about women reinventing their careers in midlife.
[00:00:11] Patsy Day: Hi, Susannah.
[00:00:12] Susannah de Jager: Hi, Pats.
[00:00:13] Patsy Day: How's your wobbly middle?
[00:00:14] Susannah de Jager: This month has been travel, stop. Kids holidays, stop. Breathe, stop.
I find that sometimes it can be hard to make space for all the things we know we should. Family, work, life admin, and usually last but not least, health. Just trying to squeeze it all in can feel overwhelming, and in my case sometimes that makes me want to withdraw and just do nothing. So my focus for the next month is gonna be routine diarizing, even small commitments, including those to myself and sticking to them so that I don't feel like I'm reacting to the world, but rather that I'm in command of it, or at least my own little corner.
How about you? How's your wobbly middle?
[00:00:59] Patsy Day: Yes, I'm all good.
Have you seen the Transferable Skills Guide for Journalists that Aundrea Klein-Thomas put together?
[00:01:08] Susannah de Jager: No, but she's amazing. So I'd love to.
[00:01:11] Patsy Day: And it's really excellent and it's available on her site. But it made me think about putting a similar note together for lawyers about their transferable skills, and so if anyone's listening, practicing, non-practicing lawyer and want to drop me a line about what you think our good transferable skills or anecdotes that you've got, then please do so. I'd love to incorporate input from others. Now, are you ready to introduce our guest?
[00:01:43] Susannah de Jager: Our guest today is Sophie Champion de Crespigny, founder and creator of Sorsa Jewelry, a luxury, bespoke, sustainable jewelry brand. Sophie started making jewelry after her second son was born, and Sorsa's evolution has been a natural process, starting with friends and family and shaped by the demands of small children and a growing family.
She's carved something out for herself that can adapt to her life and grow as her family does. As an engineering major from UCL, this wasn't always the obvious pathway for Sophie. But a lack of kinship in the role she found herself offered in engineering and a shift in her reality forced her to innovate and come up with a new plan. Her inner entrepreneur took over and she started her own business.
Sophie's story is one of working at how we move forward one step at a time, and how tenacity and under-recognized talents can forge an unexpected path and one that ultimately may serve you better. Sophie, thank you so much for joining today.
[00:02:47] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Thank you for having me.
[00:02:49] Susannah de Jager: So on paper you've got one of the more surprising pivots that we've had on the podcast. So you went from civil engineering to having your own jewelry business. I'd love to hear
what made you pursue engineering, which as you've said yourself, wasn't the most typical path for a teenage girl from West Virginia to go down.
[00:03:13] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Well, I've always been very creative. That was my background, my base. But in high school, I found that I loved physics, which was a surprise to everyone. I was the typical American cheerleader, but loved physics and leaned into that, and I liked being viewed as being bright, and then whenever it's going to do your degree, you have to decide at 17 however old you are when you're applying. and I just decided to lean into the engineering route. I knew back home it was a good career and I loved the study. I loved the complexity of the problem solving, and I really enjoyed school. So by the end, there was only four girls in my graduating class. I mean, it was a very male dominated degree and at my university it was a mix of environmental engineering, civil engineering and a minor with sustainable design and I think that's what kept me in. I loved the sustainability bit. So that got me through my five years of schooling and I had big dreams of living walls and like, I don't know, renewable energy, saving the world. That didn't really happen. But that's what kept me in and drew me in the problem solving and the, complexity of study.
[00:04:23] Patsy Day: And then what was it like when you actually went to work as an engineer?
[00:04:27] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Well my first job was digging sewer lines in rural West Virginia. So connecting septic tanks into an existing, wastewater treatment plant, and it was a great experience. Not what I saw myself doing in the future, and it was just, I mean, I would often come home with sewage up to my ankles, knees, just wading through sludge. It definitely wasn't what I wanted and looking back, that's probably why people were surprised that I went into engineering because It's a dirty job, it can be a dirty job. That was my first experience with it and it didn't really get much better, to be honest.
[00:05:06] Susannah de Jager: You speak there about obviously the substance of what you are working with, but you've also, if you're happy to share, spoken a bit to us about just some of the cultural aspects that you faced as a woman in quite a male dominated industry.
Tell us a little bit about some of those things.
[00:05:23] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: When I first moved to London, it was for an internship. It was always meant to be short term. But as time went on, I wanted to stay in London.
At the end, I was having a job interview with them to stay on, and the guy looked at me. I've been sitting with him for, what, six months at this point and he just looked at me and he said, oh, we don't have a role for you, but you're great to look at.
It makes me so sad thinking about it. I felt so small yet I sat there for another 30 minutes smiling at his jokes and laughing and like a good little girl. I probably would do the same now because I'm just not abrasive, but it hurt my feelings so bad. I felt so small and it just made me feel like I did something wrong, and that's not the only instance. There's so many, that same office, the guy would come behind me and always sing, These Boots Are Made For Walking, like in my ear and I don't know what that meant, but it made me so uncomfortable.
Yet I never turned around and said, that is inappropriate. Stop singing in my ear. But, it was just not for me. It was just not for me.
[00:06:25] Susannah de Jager: I am sorry. That's shit. call a spade a spade. It's really so horrible how common these stories are in lots of industries. But even things that might not look obviously like really bad sexual harassment basically, which is sort of what you're describing. Actually can make a position utterly untenable and I think that's quite a shocking thing for lots of women who are subject to it, and for many people observing is how much, even things that might go as normal banter can make somebody exit because it's just not sustainable.
[00:07:04] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: It just made me feel out of place. It just kind of took my confidence away, and I was young at the time. But it wasn't a place for me to thrive.
[00:07:13] Patsy Day: I also think it's interesting when you say you don't know if you would be able to do something about it now, and I think that just goes to how shocking it is and how surprising in the moment when it happens, how ill prepared we are to respond to it, even now.
[00:07:33] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Yeah, I mean, it kind of takes the wind out of your sails and sometimes it was like three sentences later that I really realized how offended I was.
[00:07:41] Susannah de Jager: Honestly, I have been subject to similar things myself, and I think of myself as somebody that's really able to clap back and I haven't. So I think Patsy's spot on. It's harder than you think, regardless of your personality type. Taking that as red, let's move on to more positive, arenas.
So you decided to leave what could have been a really interesting career behind, but then your whole world really changed for lots of reasons, and I'd love to hear a little bit about that phase of your life really and how it forged where you now are.
[00:08:17] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: It was a bit of a slow progress because after that I knew I didn't want civil engineering, but I still wasn't ready to quit I guess. I leaned in,
I got my master's at UCL in Environmental Design and Engineering, and went on to get a job at a renewable energy startup, being a sustainability consultant.
But what that actually meant was I was a customer service agent, which is great, but not what I had studied so long for, at this point, almost eight years of schooling. So I decided while working there that this was it. I was gonna go do something entrepreneurial. So it kind of gave me space to work out what I wanted to do, how to come up with a business idea and I just went for it.
My husband had to go to Australia for an extended period of time and so I quit my job. I went to Australia with him for a little while and was trying to work out what I wanted to do. And with all of the things I've pivoted to, it's been something that I loved and I thought could work here. And a benefit of being a foreigner is sometimes a business might work in America and you get a little idea or something from there. They're not always a fully organic idea.
I decided to go with a kombucha business because there was very little in London at the time, and I thought I could ride the wave up. So I started a home brewing kombucha business from my table. By the time we got back to London, the website was up and running. I was ready to dive in and yeah, I started growing scobies from my kitchen table and we had a little flat. My husband was so supportive and so sweet because I moved the bed up against the wall in our spare room and ended up having hundreds of scobies and little jars all over the floor, and you could smell it coming up the stairs of our apartment building. And then by the time he opened the door, that's all you could smell.
[00:10:06] Patsy Day: You've mentioned before that your father is very entrepreneurial. Do you think you absorbed those things growing up?
[00:10:12] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Very much, my mom's incredibly creative, my dad's very entrepreneurial and I am a lot like my dad. Even as a kid, I think whenever I was in middle school, I started charging girls in high school, a hundred dollars to take their jeans and embroider and distress them.
[00:10:28] Patsy Day: I always had a side hustle and I loved when my dad would be proud.It's the pat on the head every now and then, and I'ma sucker for it. I feel like it's something I enjoy, but when somebody's like, oh, good job.
So how long, did your house smell of vinegar?
[00:10:41] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Well, it was probably six months, six long months of full vinegar.
But then as everything grew, I was able to get the scobies and my business, I was able to get a little studio. I took a studio in Acton and it was such a rush. I felt so much pride and excitement. I'd never loved riding the tube, as much as I loved riding the tube to work. I felt like I walked with such a strut.
It was so fun to watch it, and it wasn't like I was making insanes amount of money, but it was my own. It was something that I started from the ground up and then Covid came. Which was actually better because people were wanting to do things at home, have new hobbies and be healthy.
And so it took off even more. But I became pregnant November before Covid and it was a big shock. I was not expecting it. My husband has been desperate to start and I was just really focused on work and I kind of just ignored that and then I had some like logistical challenges because I'd hired somebody and I ended up not bringing her on because I didn't want to bring an outsider who was taking the train in to work with me in close quarters. So I kept running it solo.
[00:11:53] Patsy Day: We forget now, five years on, how very scary that was, especially if you were pregnant at the time, and the fear about interacting with others and the fear about breaking the law. It was really scary those interactions with other people just terrifying.
[00:12:12] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Itdoes seem almost silly, but we were so strict and careful because you just didn't know what was gonna happen and you heard enough scary stories that it wasn't worth risking really anything. So with the kombucha, I kept the studio and I would drive in one day a week. Every Tuesday I would package up the scobies that grew from the week before and brew my next batch to collect the week after. And I just brought them back to the house and shipped and packed from and that went really well. But I didn't have any childcare in place.
I didn't have anything in place and I kind of naively thought my baby, I'll just take two weeks off. It'll be fine, and he'll hang with me and we'll just keep things going. I'm so thankful that is not how I felt after having him. When I had my baby and I saw Milo, from my toes to my head, a wave of euphoria.
I just never wanted to let go from like, he just went straight to my chest and then I was completely taken over. So, work was put on pause fully. I was so thankful for my matrescence evolution because I didn't feel that maternal before and I'm very, very grateful that when he did come it was just a special time, and in COVID, so my husband wasn't traveling. We had nowhere to be, nowhere to go. We just got to be a little unit at home, which for us was so special.
So I'm glad I put a pause. Not really formally, because I kept my studio open. I kept everything on the back burner thinking maybe tomorrow, maybe next week, maybe next month. But eventually I moved out of the studio, closed it up, and then it was about 18 months later that I started feeling like I might want to do something again. But when I started the kombucha business, there was very little competition. When I came back just under two years later, there was so many people doing something very similar and I was just fighting over scraps in a niche market. So I didn't feel like it was gonna grow enough to make the time worthwhile, and I was pregnant again. I was about to have another baby boy, so I decided to close it up for good and I gave it my all, but it just didn't work out in the end.
And knowing when to stop is hard. You don't wanna feel like a failure, and I definitely felt like a failure, and I don't think I've touched on it today, but I struggle the most with imposter syndrome. I didn't study anything in food. I,didn't have any skills on running a food business and I started a kombucha company and again, today I didn't go to design school or I'm not a qualified jeweler, but I'm running a jewelry company now, and I say that I'm a jeweler when people ask me And imposter syndrome is so hard. I feel that all the time. I think that comes in with how people react to what you're doing or by saying your business failed, it just kind of throws a little bit more fuel on the fire. If there's a bit of an insecurity there, that's hard.
[00:15:07] Susannah de Jager: It's interesting to hear you talk about it, cause I often think that Americans have a better attitude towards failure than the Brits do. But I see it such a negative cultural trope of British people is that we see failure as instead of being like, and now you're better set up to run your next business, it's like, ooh, you failed.
It's something that I'm really hope that we can all shed to a greater degree because when you have had something go wrong, you are better forged for the next attempt you make.
[00:15:37] Patsy Day: I'm surprised to hear you speak of it failing because that wasn't my perception at all. As your story was unfolding, it felt like that decisions were being taken, there was environmental issues, there was, babies being had and at no point in any of that, did I hear anything about failure. It felt like it was no longer sustainable and your life was taking another pivot.
[00:16:03] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Oh, that's beautifully put. Thank you, and it is.Had I not stopped the first time, who knows what the business would've done, but it wouldn't have been right for us and for me. But it did end. So it was an end of an era, and you had asked, what's the hardest part, knowing when to stop very hard.
[00:16:21] Susannah de Jager: I think it's so wonderful to hear you speak so openly about how much it can change from what you envisage you're gonna feel to the reality, and I think that often we feel a lot of pressure to, toe a line, whatever the line is. It'll be different in each family of how it ought to be and it's something that we really want to dig into in this season of the Wobbly Middle is mothers who maybe want a bit of work but want to step back from full-time and working people who maybe want to change their direction for other reasons. All too often we are made to feel very guilty about some of those feelings, and it's really nice to hear you describe it so positively and with so much warmth.
[00:17:04] Patsy Day: There's so many conflicting feelings. We should want to stay at home, but sometimes we want to go back to work. We should want to go back to work, but we want to stay at home. It's very difficult to manage all those expectations and you just, in a group of friends, you know, there may be five of you and you all feel differently about which way you want to lean and it's important to hear all those different stories.
[00:17:29] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: I wrote in my notes that there's a quiet pressure to follow a certain timeline or to bounce back or to be a very successful mom with a career, but it's not very quiet. It's loud. Everybody feels that, and as you say, your friends, my friends, we all have the same pressure, but different perspectives.
It's almost like we're supposed to treat those life choices as, something you need to fit in and keep going and it's something that you're giving up to do those things. But for me it was just such a blessing to have in my life and I wanted my life to enhance my family life and not be a drain or like completely deplete me because you can't, in my mind, I don't wanna do everything. I don't want to have it all. I just want to have a little and be very present, and that works for me because I love slow days at home. I love being with the kids and that drives lots of people crazy.
So
doing what I'm doing now, has been the best fit and I hope it really does continue to grow forever. Because I can do it from everywhere.
[00:18:33] Susannah de Jager: And again, I think you've illuminated on something here that's so important and that more people should be open and honest about, because your goal as you outline it, is to have something that you enjoy that brings value and that can grow as your family grows. That should be the most supported, wonderful goal possible when you have a young family.
Taking us back, tell us about the business you now have.
[00:18:59] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Sorsa, so the jewelry came on very organically and again, started with something that I liked and I just hope people would connect with. I started wearing the pieces myself, kind of out of necessity because I wanted to buy something from America and it was too expensive, but I thought oh, I can make this and then the first piece I made, I loved doing it and I always made jewelry with my sisters as a kid, but, you know, I'm sure we all did that. It's not groundbreaking stuff.
For whatever reason, I always choose businesses that are labor intensive. So it's not something that I was pumping out tons of pieces. It was very slow at the beginning. But I loved it, and who doesn't wanna work with golden gemstones? And so I basically, I just design what I like and it's kind of an extension of my aesthetic and I hope that people connect with it, and that was really it.
[00:19:49] Susannah de Jager: As pieces sold, again, I just get such a rush from it. Anybody who has a online business, it's that same like chaching sound and my ears will hear it from like if my phone's upstairs and I'm downstairs, I can hear that go off and it is just the best feeling ever. And now having repeat customers, 'cause I am still a very small brand. But women who do tend to wear it come back and they keep coming back, and it's just such a good feeling to have that. I really care about what I buy and where I source and how I create them, and personally, I like to shop small, and I hope that people like that as well because there's so many options It's a difficult market because there's a lot of competition, but I just make what I love and what I hope other people will love, and it's been really fun so far. And you have illuminated there on some of the things that you find naturally easy. But you've also told us that there were quite a few things that you didn't find so easy when you set up your own business.
[00:20:49] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: As a lot of us do or we all do, I wear a lot of hats every day. So, you know, I have a newborn, two kids, and so
running a business when you're doing everything, I mean, I'm the accountant, which I'm terrible at. I always say married my husband for his mental math because you could not, I could not do that at all. But I'm the accountant, the buyer, the designer, the maker, the packer. I drop it off at the shipping.
You have to do so many things. There's not enough time of the day to always do everything. So for me, most of my admin's done during the workday and then at night I sit up and I actually make the pieces. Honestly, I do love all of it. You work on the job, you learn, but it's hard, and one thing I'm not good at is social media and jumping back, the tail end of my kombucha when I was trying to give it one last push.
and I met up with a girlfriend who I didn't know very well at the time. Our sons were four days apart and she was in social media and a photographer. I just asked if she was interested and she said she wanted to get back to work, so it was just the perfect matchup.
Like it was so much fun. She would come over, we'd film together. She's now one of my best friends but working with her and she helped the social media so much. We had two posts in the millions of views for the kombucha business, which I just thought was wild, and that was all her.
[00:22:06] Patsy Day: Another thing you've said that you find very difficult is wanting everything to be perfect, and if you're doing everything yourself and if you're trying to scale, something's got to give. How do you manage that?
[00:22:20] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: That has always been tricky, and knowing when to invest something, when not to. I do actually bounce a lot of things off my partner, Stu, which is helpful because sometimes I'll say with the kombucha, I had to have custom packaging and I had to invest in 10,000 units cause that's all they would sell me and Stewart was like, that's not a good business plan. So for the first business, instead of doing that, I just created a etching and stamped every package and it was fine. It wasn't perfect and I really, ah, it was not good to be honest, but until I was able to get the custom packaging, which eventually I did, that was what I did.
And same with the jewelry. Having custom made jewelry boxes when I'm only selling a piece as I make a piece was also not realistic, and so I bought a bunch of vintage boxes on eBay. Half of them were rubbish and smelly and that didn't work, and kind of added to like, I can't send something out in this vintage box.
But it was cool and it was fine and it lasted for a while and I felt like that was a bit of a sustainable element to it, and I let it go. But that part's really hard because on Instagram or websites or whatever you see it, other brands doing amazing things, whether or not they are, that's the comparison and it's hard to feel confident if you think, oh, that should be better, that should be more polished.
But you kind of just have to go on, move on and learn, and the next time you do it, and now I'm finding that more fun. But it is hard to just sometimes let things roll and see how they go. Because a lot of times there's little details don't matter and you won't be able to continue if you get hung up on every little detail.
[00:24:01] Susannah de Jager: I think the expression is done is better than perfect.
[00:24:05] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: There we go. That I could have said that.
[00:24:07] Patsy Day: There's a golden thread of sustainability that runs through everything you've done from your engineering to now speaking about your boxes from eBay. You seem to hold that value close to your heart.
[00:24:19] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: I grew up in Appalachia in the mountains of West Virginia. So beautiful. I was moved by the beauty there. I can't say it is the most sustainable place because it is like coal mining. It's coal country, but I grew up climbing and hiking and I think just loving the environment so much was important to me.
Then I got my undergrad, I had a minor in sustainable design and it was my favorite part.
[00:24:44] Patsy Day: What else from your engineering background comes through now. If you think about the skills that you've picked up along the way from engineering, customer services, kombucha, how are they all forming in what you're doing now?
[00:25:01] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: So many things help so many skills, even that you don't realize. As the customer service dealing with people now, like time management, problem solving, because when you are running a business, everything's new each day, and so if you're expecting to like sit down and have the same thing, it's just never gonna be the case, and so being able to just kind of think on my feet or work out a solution. I think that's probably all from engineering. I can't say it's all from my dad or maybe it is, I dunno. But I feel like every role I took something away with me. Or even just being willing to work really long hours like work on something hard, do something complicated because some days you do work 14 hours. I think it's mostly the problem solving, working with people, working with my hands. I think everything rolls into each other more than I realize.
[00:25:54] Patsy Day: The entrepreneurial side that comes through you. You've said that you've always been happy to pivot and switch, that you're spontaneous and optimistic, and these feel like very good qualities for an entrepreneur.
What other things do you think you need?
[00:26:12] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Ooh. You definitely do need confidence. A quiet confidence is fine, but you have to be able to go with it and be willing to start and be willing to take downfalls, like if someone doesn't love it or something comes back or something goes wrong, it's very personal.
So you have to have like a little bit of being able to just bounce back and move on. But for me, I think those three things helped me pivot so much because I'm not a huge planner. As I said, I had babies and a husband before I had even considered either of those things, and I don't often look very far in the future. But I always feel like things will work out and I'm happy to put in hard work.
So I think being confident in what you like, somebody most likely will align with that if you believe in what you're doing and be willing to take the risk to just start. And sometimes starting is months, it's not always a five day thing, a 10 day thing, it could be months of starting where you're working on something.
[00:27:12] Patsy Day: I think months of starting is an important point because we always see the finished product and think, I couldn't do that. But you have to get there, you have to actually start.
What would your advice be to someone whofeels that, I know there's something out there for me, I want something for myself.What advice would you give to them about actually taking that first step?
[00:27:36] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: It sounds so silly, but I made a list and I sat down and I wrote out 500 business ideas whenever I was trying to figure out a kombucha thing and it was like to meet my parameters. But it was just brainstorming I wrote the name down. I moved on and it sounds silly, but it really did help.
And I just landed on this and I actually think it was chatting with my mom. I like sent her a picture and she was like, ah that, that's it. But having a way to collect your thoughts because if you just say, right, I wanna start a business that is like an ocean. How would you start?
What is important to you? Work those out that will fit your life or how you envision it if you do plan in the future where you wanna be. For me, it has to be something that I love. I can't work hours and hours and hours on something I don't stand behind. So I love jewelry. I love the pieces I make.
[00:28:23] Susannah de Jager: I
also think that you're identifying something really important here, which is you're talking about authenticity, and you're talking about how important it is for you and for when it gets hard, to be able to keep working. It's obviously incredibly important to believe in what you're doing on a personal level, but I think what perhaps you are underestimating is how much that authenticity comes through to the clients of any business.
As a consumer, you can smell out when somebody's kind of using words that don't resonate with them or they don't really care, or it's just marketing spiel.
You've spoken about some of the things that have worked really well for you marketing and some things that you almost stumbled across. I'd love you to speak about that cause if anyone is listening, thinking about this type of business, the marketing, the social media, it can be really intimidating.
[00:29:09] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: It's such a love hate relationship for me because it's such a key part of my business. If I post and I'm active, I get sales, I haven't been posting, it is very quiet out there, so Instagram's an incredible free tool to have.
But for me, it sucks me in and then I want new clothes, all of these things so.
It dangerous. A lot of it's me. I'm taking a picture of my face and it's very kind of vain and not really me when I'm like rolling around. I don't take photos of myself like that on a normal basis. But I started doing this a lot for the jewelry business. I found other women in business or influencers I have gifted pieces to. And the first woman, the first person I shared with was Matilda Goad, She was so kind, so helpful. The emails were so wonderful to read and so supportive.
But just by her wearing it and posting it to her followers, I had a rush of followers, a rush of engagement and multiple sales and it, that was just, I said, okay, that's what I'll do. So I haven't done any traditional advertising. But I have gifted pieces and at a decent cost because golden gems are pricey. But for me it just makes perfect sense. I find people I like and I think if I like them, maybe my followers, their followers, we have similar interests, and so that's kind of how I target. I like chat in their comments over and over again until they finally see me and then hope that one day they'll accept a piece from me.
[00:30:42] Patsy Day: We've got one question which we ask all our guests and that's what you would tell your younger self, the one that thought they were going to be in civil engineering. What would you tell her about what you've learned up until this point?
[00:30:59] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: For my engineering self, I would say it's okay to quit and,I can be incredibly self-critical. I would basically just say, continue to go with your gut and to be kinder to myself.
[00:31:12] Susannah de Jager: Sophie, thank you. Honestly, this has been so wonderful and you're doing great. It's amazing.
[00:31:20] Sophie Champion de Crespigny: Thank you both so much. it's been such an honor to come on. I was so, so happy when I got the ask, but it's been really nice chatting with you both.
[00:31:28] Patsy Day: Thank you for listening, for sharing your stories, and for being part of the conversation.
[00:31:33] Susannah de Jager: New episodes of The Wobbly Middle are released every other week. Please follow us and leave a review. It really helps others to find us.