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Welcome creatives! These are discussions, thoughts, case studies, interviews, and lessons about how our creativity relates to life. The host, Mr Benja, is a former video game programmer / designer for Rockstar Games, Sony Santa Monica, The 3DO Company, and others, as well as a fine artist. -- Be sure to check out the website for more.
Benja: Tony Barnes, the eight-bit ninja,
the retro ninja coming through, and we are
going to be talking up some
game development, some classic
stories about not just
gaming, just development in general.
And
today, if you don't know, we're
dealing with a real developer.
As always, if you have any
questions, if you have any comments,
any of that, throw them in the
chat.
We'll get
to them as we go along
and we'll keep it flowing.
Tony, how are you doing, sir?
Tony: I'm all right.
You know, I'm not too IgE savvy, so,
um, it's amazing on, on, even here
Benja: you are not the only one.
We
also had a Tomo on, um, who I met through
you at, uh, at, at one of the random
walk-around bumped into kind of events.
Do you remember that?
Tony: Probably.
Uh, yeah, but Tomo almost my boy.
, definitely.
Uh, yeah, you know, there's a lot
of walking around that we don't
do anymore and that kind of sucks.
I miss that.
Okay.
Really , the past few years go on
this show was like, who cares as
far as looking at the products?
Cause I either could see them online
or I could, I guess, stand in line
to see what I could see online.
Rightly it was, it was about walking
the show floor, seeing people I haven't
seen in a long time, you know, hanging
out at the bar and getting watered
down drinks, all that fun stuff.
Benja: Yeah.
I'm a lot of, a lot of eat, not eat three
stories, um, to be told, um, Brandon,
some of them not to be told, but yeah.
Tony: Oh, right, right, right.
Yeah.
What was your different times though?
Benja: What was your,
what was your first ? Uh,
Tony: the very first B3.
Um,
Benja: really?
Tony: Oh yeah.
I mean, you know, I I've been
in the game for 36 years now.
Um, and, uh, even though I don't
do many conventions, um, I did eat
three definitely the first time.
Uh, and, uh, actually I went through
all of them up and you know, up until
the one right before the last one or
before, you know, 20, 20 boom, uh,
2019, I went up and met up with red bull
and hooked them and everything, but I
never touched the show floor in 2019.
And I was like, you know what?
This is probably my last E three.
And I, I hate to say it cause I
was a big proponent of V3, like.
In our business.
There's a lot of people that like to
shun the spotlight, the stuff that
actually, you know, puts a spotlight
on our biz to the normies or whatever,
you know, to the customer, to the
user, whatever you want to call people.
Um, I don't, I don't
really prescribe to that.
Like, you know, TGA is, or the TGA is
, you know, um, I'm all about it because
most of the time when people look at our
biz or talk like when the mainstream media
talks about our biz, they're usually not
talking about it in a good light, you
know, they're usually saying like, oh,
this, you know, this sociopath did this.
Or, you know, or this is bad.
So
Benja: yeah, it's
always got some weird twist to it
where it's not a straightforward, Hey,
this is a celebration of whatever,
here's something cool that's coming out
there, blazing technology
trails or whatever.
It's just
Tony: right.
It's usually the bat.
And, um, and so when E three rolls
around or even the TJs roll around the
community, gaming community and devs
and all that fun stuff like to bitch
and moan, but, um, the mass media at
large, like, Ooh, look at this thing,
oh, it's really nice and polished.
It makes how much money and, you
know, You got to play into that.
You know, this is a business nobody's in
business for decades without actually,
you know, acting like a business.
It's not charity anyway.
Benja: So
speaking of being in the business
for awhile, um, I didn't want
anybody to gloss over that thing.
You said in the industry
35 years.
That's amazing.
That's excellent.
Um, I want to be, I want to tell you very
early on in this discussion, I admire
what you've done and where you've been,
and you're a pretty bad ass individual.
Tony: No, but I feel, yeah.
Benja: Tell me about, 'em
really quick, the
quick bio, or as quick
as you'd like it to be,
uh, where you've been,
where you, uh,
where you are and where you're going.
Just a quick little overview
and then we'll proceed from
there.
Tony: Uh, let's see, how
quick can I make this?
Um, started making games at 12.
Maybe that's not the quickest way.
Okay.
We'll skip to the professional stuff.
Uh, started making games at 15 then
professionally, um, you know, uh, the app
to start in school, um, then, uh, tare.
So my first game on the entirety,
like I said, uh, when I was 15.
Um,
Benja: so it was this just.
Published or
Tony: published?
No.
I mean, if we want to talk about
just like, you know, doing stuff for
classmates and friends, then that
starts at 12 and that puts my game
career at 38 years, something like that.
Um, but I don't know no offense to people
out there hustling to their friends and
everything, but I don't count though,
like for my timeline, I don't count
that I count the second that I got a
check and I got that check and didn't
have a bank account and I had to go to
my mom and go, can you cash this check?
And it was a check for,
uh, 2,500 bucks, you know?
So 2,500 bucks in 19 85, 86,
19 86, you know, that's a lot
of money for a dirt, poor kid.
Yeah.
And, um, and, um, and my mother
was like, uh, what is this?
Where'd you get this?
And I say, you know, all those
games you told me to stop playing.
Um, yeah, this is for, uh,
one of them that I made.
And she said, how long, how long
did it take you to make that?
And I said, uh, about a
day and a half, two days.
And, uh, so she said, all right.
And then she opened up
a bank account for me.
Um, yeah.
And that, that was in 1986.
Um, fast forward to like.
What, uh, probably 1990, I
worked, I ended up working for the
company that published my game.
Um, so I worked for them and they
were called antique publishing.
They had a magazine and, uh, and, um,
you know, they were, they were steep.
They were a tare, they were like
hardcore tare, um, go Atari.
And, um, so I ended up working for them.
They were in San Francisco.
So be growing up in the bay area really
helped with, um, you know, kind of
jump-starting what I was born to do, which
was to, you know, make games for a living.
Benja: So did you meet any,
meet any other developers or
people that we might, uh, know or anybody?
Tony: Um, just coming up?
Sure.
Uh, uh, back then, um, I mean, a
lot of the people that I worked
with back then, um, are out of the
business now, um, because, you know,
they're, they're smarter than me.
Uh,
Benja: no, Ben,
Tony: this is, this is what I'm saying.
This whole phone thing
is just silly to me.
Um, but, uh, yeah, you know, um, I ended
up working with, um, you know, like,
let's see Charles Cherry and Tom Hudson
and people that like, you know, made this
little thing called 3d S uh, max or 3d
studio because it wasn't max at the time.
Um, You know, so they went
on to Autodesk and whatnot.
I'm trying to think.
Uh, oh, well, you know, uh, Greg Thomas
and, uh, Scott Patterson, they were,
um, the co-founders of visual concepts
to work with them for a little bit.
Um, you know, used to hang with them,
ended up living with them for a few
months while, while doing parts of
their two GS games to, uh, the amiga.
Um, I don't know.
I know lots of, lots of old, old guys
like myself, but not quite like myself.
I mean, like Steve Cartwright and,
uh, it, it like that far back it's.
Yeah.
Remembering people.
I don't know.
It's getting, starting to fade
and getting old man, but, um,
yeah, I'm trying to think.
I mean like a lot of people call me like
the, the Kevin bacon of video games.
Um, so
Benja: 77 degrees of, uh, Antonio Barnes.
Tony: Yeah.
It's usually about two degrees.
Um, if I don't know somebody, I
know somebody that knows somebody,
so like singling out people
on a, on a name, drop spree.
It's kind of weird.
Like why didn't mean
Benja: to, you know, I didn't mean
to say like that, but what I, um,
what I was just getting at is that
we're I know I was connected to.
It's a relatively small industry.
And you know, when I got in,
uh, working in 2000 and that was
connecting with people like, holy crap,
Tony: this is the guy who
made the paddle on the Atari,
Benja: you know, you see it, that's crazy.
It's just like that.
That's the guy or the guy who
made, you know, and this is just
the guy who works down the hallway
Tony: from you or?
Yeah, I mean, like I said, like, like
when I met, um, like say Rob Hubbard or
Steve Cartwright, uh, Rob Hubbard, uh,
for, for the youngsters that don't know,
um, one of the greatest, uh, uh, video
game musicians ever, uh, I don't care
what anybody has to say or whatever.
He, he is a musical God and he made
the and the Atari, and then all
the way up till probably, you know,
CDs came in to being, you know, a
PlayStation, all that fun stuff.
He made like some of the most amazing
music and made those machines sing.
And, um, all of a sudden I'm sitting,
you know, I'm sitting at my desk, I
electronic arts and I think someone, an
email, um, which I stopped doing, um,
cause you know, too many people would
come and go, but they send on the email.
Oh, you know, we have blah, blah,
blah, who just run the company.
Right.
Right.
And it would just be like a big old list.
And I was like, Rob Hubbard.
Oh, okay.
Look them up on the registry.
Where is he?
Okay.
Third floor.
Okay.
Bam, bam, bam.
Like I went over and Sam Boyd out, um,
you know, same with Steve Cartwright.
Steve Cartwright, uh, you know, made, uh,
some amazing games for this company called
Activision back when they were Activision,
not at the blues or, or, or the house
that Cod built, but when they were
building, you know, games like pitfall
and barnstorming and custom capers, and
like all the stuff that made the Atari
2,600, like a serious contender, because,
you know, the stuff that they were
doing with the machine was just amazing.
And the stuff that Steve Cartwright was
doing, uh, for the, with the Genesis,
for our mutant league basketball that got
canceled, um, um, he was doing amazing
work and, you know, I'm sitting there a
fan blowing out and it's funny because
now I kind of get some of that, you know,
for the longest time, you know, you go and
you, you talk to somebody and you're like,
oh man, am I bugging them or whatever.
And I think, you know, for some
people you might be bugging them.
Um, but if they're anything like
me, they're like, oh, thank you.
Somebody cares.
Like, you know, um, it's not, it's
not that I do this to, uh, get
the likes, you know, otherwise
I'd be more active than ING and I
know how the hell is saying work.
Uh, but it's, um, it's good to know
that the hours and the work that you
put in actually has a positive, you
know, a positive influence on people.
So.
So
Benja: back when you were creating
and really getting into the whole
flow of things, electronic arts, you
started out programming, correct.
Tony: Or a
Benja: design.
Tony: I started making games
Benja: like
Tony: delineation back then.
And so we kind of, we kind of skipped,
but like, um, I wanted to be an animator.
I wanted to make comic books.
I wanted to animate.
So I was, I was making, um, I was
making those things as a kid and
then they put computers in school.
And, um, I, at the time it was
great because, um, the class that
I was in, it was a math class and
the math teacher didn't know what
the hell to do with this stuff.
And I was, I had another class where
we were doing stop motion animation.
Now, um, stop motion is
time intensive and tedious.
And because it was in class, it was
even worse because you only had a 15
minute period and you had to coordinate
with your year, uh, classmates, you
know, cause it was a class assignment.
Um, so all of a sudden this
computer comes along and people
are moving pixels like that.
You know, like it's like, oh, in,
in, you know, five minutes to get
to Kentucky because they take bam,
oh, look, pixels, move around.
And like, for me it
was just about getting.
That I saw in my head moving and
getting a reaction from people the same
way that like drawing the comic books
was about drawing something, drawing
a story, or doing dungeon, you know,
Dungeons and dragons, being a DM.
It was about inner interacting with
people, um, with something I saw in my
head, you know, putting it out there
and then getting their reaction back.
So I just gravitated to the, uh, to the
computers because I can move the pixels
and, uh, like it even make it so that
someone could do input and, you know,
move the pixels and then get a reaction.
Right.
So that's how I, um, got into it.
The programming was purely out of
necessity because like I said, I
wanted to be an animator and artist.
Um, and then, um, you know, I also make
music and all this stuff, so it just
all kind of came together and it made
sense for me, uh, to make a video game.
I like playing games.
I saw the space invaders thing when
I was like eight or nine years old.
So, you know, and I had at 2,600.
So, um, I was like, man, I get to
people, people make this stuff, like,
that's the first thing was like people,
you know, people make these things.
And so we're on the computer and you've
Benja: got the animation
going on at that point.
Did it kind of start to click
like, wait a minute, somebody can
actually make these things or, you
know, you have that jump from just
being a spectator to, I can do this.
Is that like.
Tony: The jump came.
Um, there was a kid and so I wasn't, you
know, I say I was in like sixth grade.
Um, there was a kid and he
was like an eighth grader, you
know, who they were back then.
Um, and he knew what he was doing
or at least enough, he, he, he
understood enough basic to make a game.
so he showed me his game and he, um,
and he was like, I made this and I was
like, you made that, that's amazing.
Um, excuse me.
And he hit the brake key, which I don't
even think they have on keyboards anymore.
Um, what the brake he would do was
it would stop a program from running.
Right.
So, and I don't mean like all debt
for like, you know, get out of here.
It would just stop it and then
dump you at a little prompt.
Um, and then, you know, if you knew
what to do, you knew what to do, right?
So he hit the break key and he typed
list list is the command that says,
show me your program in basic, right?
Yeah.
Um, and all this stuff flew by,
you know, it was like the matrix.
I mean, it was cause it was like green
text on black background and it was
just flying by and he said, this is what
makes, this is what makes you move this?
What makes you stop when you hit a wall,
this is what makes the monster chase you.
And this is what, um, uh, makes
you die when you hit the monster.
And, um, and then he just said, so have
at it, and, and I wish I could remember
his name and who he was, because that
was the moment, like when I sat there
and looked at the code and because
it's basic, it's, it's, it's basic,
it's kind of English with punctuation.
Yeah.
Uh,
Benja: line X, Y um, yeah, I mean,
the descriptive it's descriptive
Tony: when you read it,
it's descriptive enough.
It's like, you know, plot
and if then, and all that.
Right.
And really games aren't much more
than that, even though the stick.
But, um, so I changed some stuff.
I could see the change and
I was like, Ugh, I'm done.
This is it.
Right.
Um, and, uh, I, I wanted to be in
front of the computer all the time.
Um, which was not a
common thing back then.
Um, and I, and I didn't have
a computer cause I don't know
if I mentioned I was poor.
I was like, like, you know, there's poor.
And there was like, it
was like where I was at.
So, um, A friend of me
as I like to call them.
Cause he wasn't really a friend.
He was kinda like, you know, like
Cartman, um, where he hangs with people
and he likes to puff up his chest
to, uh, how great he is, you know,
but really he wouldn't have friends
if he wasn't being, you know, being
that guy and had what he had anyway.
So this dude, he had an Atari, he
had destroyed, he had everything.
And um, and, um, and so I would write
on binder paper, my, my, uh, programs in
class or wherever, whenever I could write.
And I learned all this stuff of books
because we didn't have internet back.
Then we have these things called libraries
and we had, you know, bookstores, right.
So I would get the books and I would get
the magazines and I would study them.
And then I would write down
what I wanted to happen.
I would walk over this dude's house.
Um, and he used to live
near me, but then he moved.
So he moved three miles away.
Um, I would walk to his house,
um, and then I would type in my
program, um, and put it on my one
disc that I saved up money for.
Um, and then I would debug
it and whatever, until his
parents were like, yeah.
Okay, Tony, that's nice.
You know, we're going to have
dinner now you might want to bounce.
Um, and then I walked back home
until I eventually got a game and.
Benja: So now are your, are your
parents like, uh, you know, um, are
they thinking, uh, Hey, you know,
where are you going all this time?
What are you doing?
Tony: Uh, uh, no, my mother was always
like, um, go outside, get out of
my face, you know, um, uh, be home
before the lights come on, you know,
that's, that's how I was raised.
Um, you know, as long as I had my
homework done, then, you know, you're
a kid you need to be outside playing.
So it sounds crazy today,
but I, yes, I know.
And it wasn't like, uh, it wasn't like
I wasn't getting exercise because,
you know, I had that six miles to
walk back and forth and it was uphill
back uphill, both ways because I lived
on the outskirts of San Francisco,
uh, right next to this suburb called
daily city, which was in a valley.
So I went from my house down and
then up to his house and then down.
But you know, when you're a kid
and you live in San Francisco and
everything Hills and walking and all
that stuff, doesn't, doesn't frighten.
You, you know, kids down here where I live
now in orange county would just scream.
If they have to walk a mile, they're like,
oh my God, why don't, you know, why am my
mommy picked me up in my BMW or whatever.
But, um, so, um, yeah, I w I would go to
homeboy's house and, um, And I'll just say
it because I want to put them on blast.
Yes.
When RT is going to put you on
blast every single time I can,
because, uh, what you said helped me.
Um, but you're trying to hurt me, Carmen,
uh, which the one thing he said was
like, I don't know why you're working
on all these, all these little games.
Um, uh, you're never gonna make
anything of yourself, you know,
you don't even have a dad.
And so, uh, like I said, he was my
friend of me, you know, and he was
always trying to figure out a way
to like get in and all this stuff.
And he thought he like, he was
gonna make this one game and
it was going to be perfect.
And he even said that to me, he
was like, I don't know why he
making all these little games.
You should just make the one game.
That's perfect.
Um, and he made one game in
his whole life, you know, and
nobody's ever heard of it.
Uh, so, oh, the, the, um, the
achievement of locked on that story
besides, you know, my career and all
that fun stuff is, um, I did actually
end up seeing him, uh, years later.
And, um, I had, uh, gotten a,
uh, 68 GTO and it would just,
it was just freshly painted.
Um, and I think at that point
I shipped jungle strike.
Maybe it was a demonstration, but anyway,
it was one of the strike and I had.
I stopped to get gas.
And he was there working at
the gas station, um, and he was
like, well, this is your car.
And I'm like, yep.
And he, so how'd you get this car?
And I handed him my card from
electronic arts at the time.
And I said, oh, I worked
at electronic arts making.
So, um, you know, that that's my
redemption story or whatever, you know,
I always kids don't, don't, don't be
dicks at people who are trying out their
hustle and, you know, kids are out there.
You're trying to hustle.
Um, always remember there's going
to be haters best reward, hand, and
hand them your card while they're
working at a gas station telling
you you couldn't have done it.
Benja: No, that's actually, that is that,
that is very, uh, appreciated advice.
The, the, the person or the
Cartman or whoever that can kind
of give you that Slingshot spark.
And just that little bit
of, I, I love haters, man,
when I can use them for
their energy like that.
Tony: Yeah.
A lot of, uh, man, you, you would not
believe how many times I've used someone's
negativity to, to propel me forward.
Uh, I'll be like, you know what?
I am not going to let you crush
me under, I will step on top.
So, but I mean, sure things hurt.
But like, if you just, like I said,
you just got to use it, use it to
propel you forward, like, oh, you
think I can't you think I won't?
Oh, bam.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Uh, but you know, so, um, with reference
to the, like the whole program and
the programming thing was, uh, out
of necessity because I needed to get
things moving on the screen and it
wasn't like there were teams back
then there wasn't really teams until
the late eighties, early nineties.
Right.
Like, um, at that point, um, it was a
person generally did the entire game.
Um, and maybe, you know, like I
said, there was like, like guys,
like Rob Hubbard and David Whitaker
and all these, these musicians
who their thing was to make music.
Right.
So sometimes you get someone like
them to come in and sit in, but even
guys like, like those guys, um, they
still knew how to code because it
wasn't like they were sitting there
making music on their keyboard and
spitting out an MP3 and going go.
Right, right.
They actually wrote code, um, to actually
make the music that you're listening
to on your eight and 16 bit machines.
Trust me.
Um, and so.
Everybody at that time, kind of
knew a little bit about coding.
You know, whether you're a pixel
artist or a programmer designer or
sound person, you know, everybody kind
of knew enough code to get them by.
Um, I eventually ended up learning
assembly and all that fun stuff, uh,
because I would see games from other
people and, and, and places that
actually did start to have teams,
you know, like uh um, and they had
like a speed ball and see non CAS
engine, all these, all these games.
Um, and nobody knows DMA
design, even though they made
this little thing called GTA.
Uh, and I'd be like, how did,
how, how did they do this?
Right.
And so I try to do what they were doing.
And then it was like, oh, well,
they're, they're not programming
and basic, why aren't you in basic?
Like, you can't do that in
basic, you need assembly.
And I'm like, oh, well,
what's assemble that's okay.
Right.
That's what I'm kind of, I'm
kind of always do it now.
It's like, um, somebody tells me I
can't, then I will, if, uh, if I see
something that I admire, um, then I
instantly turned it into, um, my target
of competition and I go after it.
So.
Benja: I'll I'll jump back to
the game development, but just in
speaking of general development, you
also, uh, you're you're into music.
I know.
Um, and you're, you're also into cars
Tony: that, yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny.
Um, uh, so how, you know, we met, um,
you know, you were at rockstar, right?
Um, I was looking at bounce from
the collective and, um, it's funny
cause you know, they were bringing
me in for, uh, uh, what turned into
red, dead redemption, redemption,
whatever, you know, RDR the second one.
But, um, when they decided to kind
of freeze that or put it on ice for a
second while, while they were trying
to figure out other stuff and get the
rage engine to going the engine that
now is running everything on GTA and
all that fun stuff, uh, they were
like, Hey Tony, are you into cars?
Uh, yeah, like I had just, I just rolled
down there, um, uh, in my, uh, uh, 2000
Trans-Am that was slightly modified.
So I think it was like,
it was like 374 courses.
Um, Um, I love that car.
That was my wife's car before mine.
And back then we, uh, um, you know,
we might, may have participated in
some racist, um, maybe, and, um, I
might've known where to go, um, in
San Diego where, where people go
to meet up and all that fun stuff.
So I was like, yeah.
So, you know, it made sense, you know, I
ended up on midnight club and I thought
you actually, uh, brought on for that,
which is, uh, so this is news to me.
Oh yeah.
I know.
Uh, no, I don't even know if they
knew, um, like I said, it was, I was
literally asked, it was like, it was
like, oh, I'm coming in for it dead.
Oh, by the way.
Yeah.
No, not red dead, but the like cars.
And I was like, oh, okay.
Um, yeah, I mean, I'm in the
cars and I'm in the muscle cars.
Um, so I thought they wanted
me to talk to you cause
Benja: I was the other black
Tony: guy.
I'm pretty sure that was part of it.
I, I I'm sure that, I mean like, cause
Benja: you were on the midnight
club guys were talking about, Hey,
we could use, uh, Tony and his
experience for this, that night.
So the talk I was hearing was
like, okay, we'll get them on for
midnight club, but I guess that
whole thing hadn't been finalized.
And when I got brought in, I was like,
oh, well, I'm on the red dead team.
I guess we're here talking about, um, just
life and culture and, uh, you know, being
black and gave me well, w it was just me
Tony: and you and a couple other people
who we know, like Marcus Montgomery and
Travis, and that was about it as far as
black and gaming, but, um, uh, yeah, no,
I mean, like, like I said, I came so,
um, uh, great musician, uh, Stephen on
camping, and he's still at, at rockstar
San Diego did music for red dead and
did, and we worked together on, um,
Buffy and, um, uh, star Trek, DS nine.
And, um, he had gone to rockstar and
he had contacted me and talked to me
about red dead and, or actually agent.
Um, and then, um, I talked
to Wasserman, um, the studio
head, um, uh, about red dead.
And so when I came in the interview, you
know, I was ready to talk about, um, uh,
Cowboys and, you know, and then how much
I loved tombstone and all that fun stuff.
Um, and then it was like,
nah, you know, the like car.
I wonder if I have been like what,
no, my hate cars, like how that, all
that whole thing would have gone.
I don't know.
I mean, they took a chance, I guess.
I don't know.
It sounds like they were talking
about it before they talked to
me, but that kind of sounds kind
of par for the rockstar course.
Um, but you know, um, yeah, strange
Benja: place.
I really don't have
anything to say about them.
That it's a strange place.
I learned a lot there.
Um,
Tony: yeah.
You know, for me it was like, it was weird
because coming from, so I went to rockstar
San Diego, uh, post the collective.
And at the time I was really
burnt, um, on like the collective
was, um, kind of perpetual crunch
from the second that I got there.
Um, and I worked on, you know,
star wars, episode three,
which was a love, hate thing.
I remember distinctly, uh, the head of
production, um, Doug hair, great guy.
He came to me and he was like,
so Tony, you know what, I'm not
going to try and do his accent.
He's Scottish.
And he's bad-ass I
really shouldn't try it.
But, um, so he was like, you
know, so Tony, do you like, uh,
he likes star wars and in my
office it's covered in star wars.
Doesn't reflect, there's still
some stuff all around here, but.
Yeah.
I mean, I even had like a little
millennium sock and hanging
from my, uh, from my monitor.
And so I'm like, oh, I don't
know, but I like star wars.
And he, so would you like
to work on a star wars game?
And I'm like, uh, and I think I was silent
for a little, a little too long for him.
It's like, what's wrong?
And I said, um, I love star wars.
I hate everything that I
work on after I work on it.
I don't want to hate star wars,
you know, eventually get over it.
It's like, you know, now I can go back
and I can watch Buffy episodes or DS nine
or Indiana Jones or whatever, you know?
Um, but I tend to hate everything right
after I'm done with the game because
I get so immersed in the whole thing.
Um, and, uh,
Benja: no, it was it the hate
because it's never, it's never done.
It's never quite that vision or
it's just such a labor of love.
And now it's,
Tony: I, I literally, um, like I
said, I, when I say I immerse myself
in whatever I'm working on, like I
basically shut out everything that,
isn't the thing that I'm working on.
Um, and, uh, and so it's like, uh,
You know, when I'm working on a
strike game, I know everything about,
you know, an age 64 helicopter.
Um, and, um, you know, about how, how,
you know, operations, you know, air
superiority and all that stuff goes.
Um, um, when I'm working on star Trek,
you know, it's like, I just, I, I
don't do anything, but watch star Trek.
And then, um, any game that
I feel is competition, um, it
becomes, you know, part of my DNA.
So I take it, you got to know it.
Right.
And so, um, I didn't want to do that
with star wars because, um, you know, it,
it's a thing that that's deep inside me.
I mean, I, I was in the theater week
one when star wars new hope came out.
Like, you know, my, my mother, um, was
going to take me to some other movie and
she's all, uh, they're sold out because
it used to happen a lot back then.
And, um, and, uh, you know, but we can go
see this star war thing as she called it.
And I was like, okay.
And, um, yeah, I probably
was like seven years old.
And then, you know, the, the
cruiser comes and the start
is rare and like all of this.
And I was just like, oh
my God, this is amazing.
Right.
And so that's, that's deep inside me
and I did not want that tampered with or
Taten painted and I didn't want, I didn't
want to become, um, so, uh, saturated
with it that I didn't like it anymore.
Um, which did happen.
Um, but it happened because that was
a rough, um, development, like the
game we were actually just supposed
to, uh, first it was, Hey, uh, we're
going to license our engine, the Slayer
engine, which, which ran Buffy and wrath
and silent hill and killer instinct,
Strider, you know, all these games,
all these games that nobody would ever
know all running on the same engine.
Um, so we were going to license
our engine, um, which I stopped
at because I knew that the
engine was, um, for us by us.
Like nobody else was going to be
able to figure that thing out.
Um, and sure enough, so then it was
going to be a co-development and it
was a co-development for awhile because
they needed our expertise to actually
navigate the engine, to get the game
that they want, you know, that we
collectively want no pun intended.
So I'm not,
Benja: I'm not even familiar
with, uh, I've never worked in a
co-development situation unless
you're talking about a team from
down the hall is working with you.
I've never actually worked.
Multi company or studio
type of co-development wow.
Yes.
Company.
No.
Tony: Yeah.
You know, it's, um, I think it's
certainly more common nowadays, um, that
there's distributed, uh, development
and certainly, you know, with COVID
and everything everybody's like
distance and all this chambers now,
but, um, yeah, back then, it probably
wasn't, it wasn't terribly common.
I think maybe it would be soft
was doing it here and there.
Um, now it's there, you know, modus
operandi, uh, basically it was like,
you know, it was more like thinking
of it as two teams, as one that
happened to be separated by 400 miles.
Luckily we're on the same coast, you know?
So, uh, there was no time issue,
um, except for the fact that like
at the collective we're generally
used to, um, working until like
eight or nine o'clock at night.
And, um, and you know, you couldn't
always contact some people, some
people, uh, at Lucas film or
look certain set at that time.
Um, but, uh, so I imagine
Benja: a lot of conference calls and
Tony: emails, conference calls,
uh, lots of, uh, air miles.
Um, so we, uh, The leadership,
uh, would basically be a blanket
over, um, over the entire project.
Um, and there was parody on either side.
So there was like a Lucas arts,
creative director and a collective
creative director and, you know, and
so on and so forth for the leadership.
And so, uh, they were coordinate and
then everyone else was basically just
task oriented, which worked out well
for the collective because a lot of
the people at the collective, um, are
very, or were very, uh, task oriented.
They're kind of like, you
know, all right, cool.
Tell me what to do boss.
And, and they would just chew
through anything that you gave them.
Uh, just excellent people for that.
Um, and so for those people, it
was like business as usual, I got
a list, you know, and I'm going
through it and then bam, bam, bam.
There you go.
Throw it over the wall.
Um, but then the, the collaboration
wasn't quite working out and it wasn't,
I don't think it, it wasn't really
like a distance logistical problem.
What it really came down to was
like, um, kind of a cultural thing.
The collective.
Like I said, it was filled with
a lot of task oriented people and
people that, that were like less
let's just get her done, you know?
Um, so you had more of a, um,
get it done as fast as possible
to the best quality as possible.
And, um, and then, you know, move on
until the task either comes back or, you
know, um, until you're out of the task and
then, you know, go on to the next thing.
Uh, and we knew the technology, right?
So our speed and cadence was kind
of incompatible with what, uh,
Lucas arts was used to LucasArts
was used to a lot of like, kind of
experimentation and discovery from what
I can understand or what I observed.
Um, and, and you couple that
with not knowing the technology.
Um, and, uh, so our, our, our
team at the collective were kind
out pacing them quite a bit.
Yeah.
And couple that with the fact that
we had a very short timeline, we
were working, um, with, you know,
the movie, the movie was being made.
As a matter of fact, the movie wasn't done
when we were done with a game, uh, but the
movie can have that, you know, they can.
They, they were, you know, editing, you
know, well, probably a month before it
hit the screens, we couldn't do that.
Um, and as a matter of fact, there
were points, there's stuff that's in
the movie, um, that we design like,
uh, our lead artists, uh, or lead
environment, artist, um, it's that Bob,
uh, like he'll go, you know, especially
to me, cause I would interface with
them in ILM a lot and go, he'll go.
Like, what is this place
supposed to look like?
And no, and I go, what is this
place supposed to look like tile?
And ILM goes, well, you know, we have
a couple of sketches and they'd send
us a couple of sketches and we're like,
okay, is this what it's gonna look like?
And like, well, we haven't really decided.
And George hasn't decided yet and yada,
yada, yada, it's amazing to me what
you see on the screen in the movie,
by the way, considering how late some
of this stuff came up or, um, so with,
uh, with some of the stuff, like I was
like, Bob, I don't know, here's the
shape language, you know what to do.
And so he would like mock it up in 3d bam,
bam, bam, bam, and then send it back to
ILM and go like this and they go, Hey.
That's cool.
Benja: Yeah,
Tony: I'm sitting there watching
the movie after I got over, uh, over
my issues of, uh, the movie and the
movie, but the development again.
Um, how long did that take?
Like six months a year.
I did not watch the entire movie,
I think for two or three years.
Um, yeah, star wars, episode three,
but I had already seen a whole
bunch of it and I already knew a
lot of it because I built the game.
Right.
Um, of course our game has a
lot more than, than the movie.
Um, because our game is all the action.
None of the talking and our game has a
bunch of stuff that they can't, they, they
cut, like we would work on stuff because
we had to, you know, we had to be ahead of
schedule and, um, and then all of a sudden
they'd go, yeah, we're not doing that.
Like we spent all this time on the
smoke and mirrors of you fighting, um,
inside of general grievances ship inside
of his, uh, his, uh, cockpit, right?
The, the bridge, um, in the movie, the
ship is supposed to get hit and then
it turns, and then it gets hit again.
Then it turns and, um, and there's this
whole big thing of that fighting on
the ceiling and the robot's magnetizing
and, you know, forget the logic of.
The fact that they're in space and
they really should have just been in
low graph fighting, but what happened?
Um, so we worked on that.
We figured out how to make it
work, and then they're like,
yeah, we're not doing that.
There's this whole fuel tank thing.
Yeah.
We're not doing that.
Okay.
Well, we're not cutting it from the game.
Like we we've spent all this time
and effort and it looks great and
it plays great, but not cutting it.
So there's lots of stuff.
And, you know, we get static for that.
People would look at the game and go, yes.
Cool.
But you made up all this stuff.
So, and, and it's funny because you
know, then in another breath people are
like, oh, we'll just fall as a movie.
Can't you can't make anyone happen.
But yeah, that's, that's
the difficulty with
Benja: movie games though, right?
I mean, it's it's, do you just want
to play the movie or do you want to
have those characters and go have
adventures that aren't in the movie?
I don't know if anyone's
ever really gotten it really.
Tony: Right.
But I, you know, I think, I think
one of the only games that people
consider, uh, have gotten it right.
Is, um, is, uh, Chronicles a Riddick.
Uh, yes, yes.
That series.
Right.
And so like, people love that game.
They say it's, it's, you know, it's
the perfect, um, licensed game.
Um, if you look at.
It just embodies the vibe and it's
within the universe, but it's not
retelling, it's not retelling anything
that's in, in cannon at all, you
know, it's, but it expands upon
the, the universe and everything.
And it's faithful to how you, you perceive
pitch black and then eventually, you
know, of Chronicles of Riddick, it's,
it's kind of a perfect in between thing.
Like if I ever go back to doing
licensed or do another license kind of
thing, like especially a movie or a TV
show, I think the stories in between
the cracks are the ones that people
should be making, not retelling what
you can see on the screen, even though
I I've done it, a couple of those
games, uh, those things aren't to me.
And I think to a lot of the audience,
those things aren't as compelling
because you, you watch the movie, right?
Do you need, you know, you sat there
for your 90 minutes to two hours, you
watched the movie, do you, do you need
six hours now, uh, watching a shadow
of the movie that you can move around?
Uh, I don't know.
I don't think so.
Um, people love Spiderman.
Um, You know, not just vitamin to
which tell them I worked on Tom
was creative director of that.
Um, but, but you know, the latest, um,
spidey and, um, and miles, and those
are stories that are in the cracks,
you know, they're in the universe, but
they're not retelling any of the movies.
And so I think that's the
best way to go about it too.
Benja: I remember.
Um, and I've kind of fallen off
with playing a lot of games.
So forgive me if somebody
has done this later.
I know, right?
Terrible shame on me.
Tony: Um, when I played,
uh, into the matrix,
Benja: I liked that I liked the idea of
being far removed from what's actually
happening in the movies, but it's kind
of going in parallel and jumping on
this little side story, that's going
along with the events from the movie.
So you can kind of cook your, your, your
brain to the relevance of what's going on.
So driving around with a Jada Pinkett
character and stuff like that,
I thought that was interesting.
I was like, oh, okay, we're doing
something a little different
Tony: here from a different angle.
I mean, besides the fact that it's a
really good movie, there's a reason
that, um, rogue one is probably one of
the best star wars movies since empire.
Um, I'm going to just state
my opinion as factoring roll
with that, but it's like, it's.
It's in between the cracks is,
you know, it's the story that
is isn't at the forefront.
They're not retelling, you know, the,
the, the destruction of the death
star, they're there, you know, like
I said, they're, they're telling the
story is there in between the cracks.
And so, um, I think a lot of
people just find that compelling.
They want more of the universe, you know,
but playing or seeing the same thing over
and over again, it gets a little tiring.
So, um, anyway, I am
totally all over the place.
Um, um,
Benja: I'm listening as we go.
Uh it's it's good
Tony: stuff.
So with
Benja: your w with your development,
uh, licensed games, original games, uh,
you got to do the remake of Strider.
Um, you know, you ha you had
the strike games early on.
What is the development philosophy
that you think is kind of missing
now that, uh, it's not, um, you
know, a lot of people are just
like, Hey, make sure it feels right.
It makes you getting the emotion, right.
When you come to a new game, what's a
philosophy in gaming that you want to
Tony: connect people with when
Benja: you're creating isn't one.
I don't know.
It may just change as you go.
Tony: Um, is it philosophy like I M.
I like, I, like, I just, I don't know.
I like, uh, I'm, I'm a very
mechanics driven designer.
Um, so I like, I like things where
it feels like the, the, um, the game
has a certain depth and respect of
the interactions that you can do.
Right.
Um, and so a lot of games at a
certain point started kind of
chasing after, um, being Hollywood.
Right, right.
There's so many people who, um,
who just want to be screenplay
writers and that's cool.
I mean, you need compelling
narrative in a, in a universe.
Um, otherwise it's kind of throw away.
Um, but it shouldn't supersede the fact
that our media is driven by interactivity.
Um, and, and so like a lot of the
things that I'm seeing on one end is
just chasing after being, you know, a
movie or a TV show, um, versus really
taking advantage of the fact that our,
our medium is interactive and that
it can, it isn't always, or can't.
You know, it can be a different
story every time someone plays.
Um, so on one end, I feel like,
I feel like narrative isn't being
taken far enough, like, um, stop
trying to be a poor man's Hollywood
and understand that, um, the stories
you can tell can be more compelling.
Yeah.
Because of the interaction and
the immersion focus on that.
If you're a storyteller and if you're
a game maker, you know, if you're like,
uh, like me, who's, uh, uh, very much
kind of a mechanic focused person, um,
then double down on that stop, uh, stop
making light of and thinking that, um,
the interactions are aren't, uh, you
know, that they don't deserve more depth.
Right.
So like, even, even my arcadey
games, I tend to like, um, here's
like, okay, I love speed runners.
Right.
Um, the reason I love speed runners is
because low speed runners and I love
fight games for the same reason is because
you're presented with a set of mechanics.
Right.
And for, uh, for Jenny and Johnny average,
they take what's on the surface and
they go, yeah, this is what I can do.
Right.
Um, But speed runners and people in fight,
game community, and, um, and rocket league
players, they're all the same to me.
They take the mechanics and they
go, that's a great start, but, and
they dig deep and they dig deep
for years on the game, you know?
And what, what the game, even though,
even if it has a simple set of rules
and simple set of interactions, they
dig deep into what it allows them to do.
And they figure out how to use
their mutability to, to be better
or different than the next person.
And so I rebel in making games like
that games that someone picks up
the controller and they go, oh,
I can, I can run and I can jump.
And I can dash, you know, speaking
about my game RDRs right now.
But, um, but then the person that takes
the time and realize that, oh, there's
actually more depth built into the game.
That's, that's more than a surface.
And so to kind of answer and bring
it back, I feel like there's kind
of two camps and they really should,
you know, come together also.
But each, each camp is kind
of surface level, right?
Like, yeah, like the app, there's, there's
a lot of game developers out there now.
And a lot of people who consider
themselves designers and I feel
like, um, a lot of them are not.
Digging deep into, you
know, into their craft.
They're not really going okay.
Uh, they're kind of stopping
at the surface going, okay,
everything seems working.
You can walk and run and jump,
but it's like in Mario you
could walk and run and jump.
Um, but there's an enormous amount of
depth in even just, you know, super Mario
for the NDS and people are to this day are
still finding shortcuts and stuff in it.
So I'd say I like speed runners
is because, uh, speed runners are
willing to put into work the work
on the games that reward them back.
Right.
So, um, they start to do something
with the game and they go, aha.
Right.
And it's this feedback loop where
they realize that the person that made
the game actually really put depth
into, into the mechanics that they
didn't like put out in some big pop-up
on the back of the box or whatever.
It's just in there.
It's, it's, it's deep and it's hidden, but
Benja: you can't really
start explaining all that.
It's
Tony: just, no, you can't.
Right.
But, um, like I said,
it's a feedback loop.
So, um, the player discover
something in the game, right.
That is isn't on the surface,
the game reacts appropriately,
um, which then tells the player.
Okay.
The game actually knows what I'm doing.
That means that whoever made this
actually understands that I would
find this thing or that I exist.
Um, Ooh, I want to find more, I
want to do more, you know, and,
and, and so it's, it's this cycle,
it's this, it's this conversation
that you're having with the player.
Um, and the player is having
with, you know, this creation that
you, you put out into the world.
Uh, and I don't think, I don't know
from my observations, a lot of, a lot
of game developers and designers don't
seem to be looking at it that way.
They don't think of it as, as a
conversation that can go on for years.
That's a good way of putting it a
Benja: conversation, a discussion, um,
um, a relationship between you, the
designer and what they're experiencing.
Um, I, I totally think you're right,
because when I've talked to people, it's,
you, you start to get into this, Hey, I'm
a designer and I'm trying to make these
cool characters, um, behave this way.
Or I have these, uh, interesting
programmatic structures and
mechanics, and I want the game
to kind of operate this way.
Look how these physics
make the rocks fall.
And the guy jumps away from it.
I designed that because I
wrote it down, but then.
To me.
And let me know if this is kind of
vibing what you're saying or not.
To me that doesn't match with this, the
experience of I'm starting to connect to
this well-designed world because I have
the dash and there are rocks coming down.
And not only can I Dodge the rocks,
I can actually start to try things
out, like jumping off of them
as they come down and, oh, wow.
I can see another vantage
point in the world.
And what's that, there's
Tony: another town over there.
You start to just
Benja: have this language and
this vibe with the character.
And I'm not even sure how to define it,
but I know it when I, when I, when it's
Tony: there and when it's not right.
And I think that a lot of, um, a lot
of games that resonate with people, um,
whether their mechanics are narrative
focused, um, the game, a lot of players
don't know, like you said, but you
know, they're like vibing with it.
Uh, and it, and it's, like I said,
it's a feedback loop of, do you do
something or you try something and
the game responds appropriately, you
know, within the universe or it, it, it
goes, oh yeah, I see what you're doing.
I'm not going to put a big invisible wall
here because I never thought you would try
and hop over that I am going to instead
I'm going to do something reactive.
Right.
Um, I'm going to, um, I don't know,
I'm going to spawn air drones that
Chasey down and say to, you know,
that's naughty or I'm going to open
up a new path that will, um, guide
you back to where I want you to be.
Um, but acknowledges that you got
where I didn't want you to be.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, and people will
respond positively to that.
Um, versus I, I remember, um, a lot
of times I like to watch people play.
Um, and so I would, uh, have a designer
that worked with me and worked for me,
um, do the same, you know, let's watch,
let's watch some players right now.
A lot of people do that, especially
nowadays things are metric driven,
but, um, I said, uh, you can't say.
And that's a hard thing
for designers to do.
It seems, or programmers
or you or anybody.
Nobody wants to hand over their baby and
not say, Hey, Hey, Hey, hold the head.
Right.
You know, they just, they, um, you
know, they want to get in there and
they want to, they want to help us.
Someone's stuck or whatever.
Right.
I said, you will learn so much
more, but keeping your mouth shut.
Um, and so we're having one of these
little sessions and the designer
said, um, to me, it's not planet.
Right.
And I was like, yeah, I turned him.
And I said, he is playing it the
way you allowed him to play it.
If he's not playing it right.
Then it's your job to guide and
steer him to what you consider.
Right.
Um, but that guy is doing
what you allow him to do.
The, the, the, the player character
allows him to do X, Y, and Z.
And your layout allowed him
to do, you know, a, B and C.
So it's your job, you
know, to guide and really.
To do it in a manner that isn't like
hammering someone on the head because
really nobody likes that, you know,
whenever you run into an invisible wall or
some Insta kill trap or something, unless
the game is, I want to be the guy or
something that actually says upfront, Hey,
I'm going to kill you every five seconds
that you don't do exactly what I said.
You know, if that's the game, then
you know, the conversation between
you and the designer is okay, I'm
going to inch my way through this.
And I'm going to sign
all of your bullshit.
Right?
That's that's, that's what, you know,
you two have signed up for, right.
But if it's this game, that's
like, nah, you know, you're Buffy.
And you're just kinda, you know,
out for walk through the cemetery
at night, then the game should
allow you to be Buffy in a cemetery.
And it shouldn't, it shouldn't put up
BS that just, you know, shuts you down
because you didn't play it the right way.
Um, and that's another thing I find a
lot of, uh, a lot of people don't quite,
uh, think about or understand is, um, you
know, you don't have to go full sandbox.
I, I'm not a huge proponent of that.
I like things that are crafted.
Um, but what you do have to do
is be open enough and consistent.
Consistency is important consistency
and how, how things react.
Uh, um, uh, the player can interact.
Um, the consistency is important to allow
you to not get, uh, you know, the shelf
moment at the time where someone runs into
something goes, this is all just bullshit
and put the controller down, right?
And it's, and the consistency is something
that allows you to tune something, to be
how you want it to be, which most of the
time people are, tend to make games harder
than the general public actually wants
to, um, embrace at first, to be honest.
Um, I think that a lot of gamers think
that, you know, everyone's sitting there,
nerfing their games and all this for the,
for the norm user, the masses or whatever.
Most people making games live
with their game for years.
Right.
So they become experts in their game.
Um, they're able to do things
that you missed or hard core.
Mr.
Get good.
Can't do at all, but they
have to bring it back.
They have to throw it, but they don't.
So they don't slam your hand with hammers.
The second that you started the thing up.
Yeah.
And
Benja: that's a, that's another variation
to me of the, you're not playing the game.
Right.
You know, when you look at someone
play a game and they fall down the
pit, you're like, God, they suck.
Why do they suck so bad?
And you're like, Hey, like, no, no,
it's they haven't seen the game.
They don't know how the physics
that you've put forth work.
They don't know the mechanics of,
you know, you're, you're sliding,
um, or drifting mechanic or
whatever, you know, they don't know.
So
Tony: exactly.
I was, um, I was just working on
something and um, and I switched the view.
I, I, you know, um, and so I think,
I think a lot of people think when
it comes to switching views in games
that it's just moving the camera.
Um, for the most part, it's
not just moving a camera.
Camera is a lot of psychology on
the player and how they perceive
things and stuff like that.
But, you know, for, for the sake
of this discussion, um, let's say
we had something that went from
first person to third person.
So.
All of the stuff that works in first
person does not work in third person.
And I'm not just talking about
the character and all that.
People don't realize that you can't
run the same first person character,
as you can, as a third person.
Um, I'm talking about, um, field of
view and layout and things like that.
Like, I can't blame someone to fall in a
pit, um, because I left the level design
the same as it was the first person when
I turned something in the third person.
Cause like in first person, you're,
you're walking up to that ledge.
Right.
And you're looking over that ledge and
you know where that legends and you're you
step out and you can see everything right.
In third person, you're standing behind
the guy who's looking over the ledge.
So you can't see over that
ledge and you can't see what
you could see in first person.
So if you, if you leave everything
the same, you know, distances and
all this stuff, you're doing a
disservice to the player, um, you
can't say, oh, they're playing it
wrong because they fell in that pit.
No, you, you didn't do your job.
You know, you decided to make this change
and thought that everything was okay, but
you weren't doing your job to make sure
that the player was still treated fairly.
And that's the thing, like I said,
like consistency and you treat
them fair, then you can be hard.
Like, uh, I I've certainly
made some hard games.
Um, yeah.
And, um, and people will play them.
People will play them death and
not, not play them in a dark souls.
I'm going to play it to show you how bad
ass I am, like start games with not easy.
Um, and part of that is, you know,
people muscling through it is
because it was fair and consistent.
Here's the rules.
Um, here's how things work.
Here's how your, your, your chopper works.
Here's how the bad guys in the world work.
They are consistent in how they work.
Um, and, um, this guy is
consistently going to hammer
your, your, you know, your ass.
Um, so, you know, either figure
out how to get around him, um, or
not engage it or whatever, right.
Um, the consistency, uh, can allow
you and enable you to actually be
incredibly difficult if you want.
So,
Benja: and you mentioned, uh, you
know, sitting with the game for a long
time and, you know, soaking it in.
You've got this whole, uh, you know,
I, I was telling people about, yeah,
I worked on, you know, table tennis
or red, dead redemption for this long.
I dove into, into each of those
topics and really wrap my head around
it, you know, became a part of it.
And what do.
Tony: I, I feel like,
um, people who try it,
Benja: I try to engage
with the actual properties.
What is gained by understanding,
innately what the property is and
where do you start getting that
undefinable authenticity out of a
game where it's like, oh, this place,
like, it feels like it should, as
opposed to, I wrote it down on paper,
you know, plumber runs and jumps.
So the game works and it's like, okay,
Tony: maybe that's.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, there's, there's
getting through a task or whatever.
And then there's like, you know,
it actually, uh, feeling right.
Um, I mean, that's one of the
things, that's what I was saying.
Like, I kinda know immerse myself
in whatever it is I'm working on.
Um, because for me I want, um,
I want it all to come naturally.
Uh, and so, uh, that's why
I study as much as I can.
Benja: I mean, the idea is to come
Tony: naturally the, uh, I want the
ideas and I want the feel and everything.
So like, um, you know,
you, it, if you're someone.
You know, if you're someone
that's oh, sorry about that.
If you're someone that's straight
race, you know, you know, you know how
it race goes down, you know, how it's
initiated, you know, how it goes down,
um, you know, where it goes down, you
know, how it ends, you know, all of
that, because you've lived it right.
The same way that like, um, you know,
if you're, uh, you know, if you're black
or you're Asian or Hispanic or white
or whatever, you know, that experience.
Right.
And so someone else can write it.
Someone else can come up with the ideas
that you can kind of, uh, you know,
you can, you can empathize with, but
you know, when something's authentic,
you know, when someone's lived it.
Right.
So like, um, a lot of stuff I
wanted to do and been nightclub
LA, it was really, uh, authentic.
Um, you know, it's the kind of
experience that someone else who was
in the life would go, oh, yup, yup.
You know, they would know because,
because, you know, because that's what
you did, you know, that's what you live.
I mean, it's even like, like, you know,
like in hip hop you listened to, you
know, especially when, when gangster was
all the rage, you know, you can listen
to somebody and they can have a cool
beat and it can be hard and all that.
But you're like what he's saying,
you know, I bought my head because
it's cool, but what you're saying,
NASFAA Ghazi really, you, you didn't
live that life, but then someone
that's authentic, you're listening.
You're like, oh, he did that.
Yeah.
So, and that, that's, that's funny.
Benja: I don't know.
Um, you know, I still search for
the exact bits or whatever, and, you
know, maybe I should just leave it
alone and not try to figure it out
because it's the certain artistic
interaction I'm having with the property.
But to your music example, you
know, I was listening to some
Funkmaster flex, uh, mix tapes.
I was listening to, uh, some Jay Z or
whatever, and it's like, okay, sure.
It sounds authentic.
Sounds good.
I actually went out to New York, walked
around times square was hanging out
and you know, the Sean, John store
with a bunch of, uh, Puffy's cronies
and it's like, wait a minute, I'm
understanding something innately.
I don't know what it is,
but this
Tony: feels like that
music sounds, or that
Benja: music sounds like this area.
I'm starting to understand
it a little more
Tony: and yeah, go ahead.
Uh, well, yeah, and like people don't,
you know, people think that like,
you know, we're talking about music.
Uh, people think that music, the
regionality of music is like, They
don't understand unless they're in it.
And they make it that that
is a representation of
everything around that person.
You know, that group.
Um, and again, you can, you can
sit and listen to somebody who's
just trying to ape a sound.
Someone was just fronting, like
going, okay, I'm going to sound,
I'm going to sound like New York.
Right.
And they might sound like New York,
but do they sound like Queens?
Do they sound like Brooklyn
they'll know the difference?
Right.
Because they didn't grow up in that life.
Um, they're just trying
to sound like X or Y.
Right.
And so, um, for the people that know,
they know, and I tend to try to try to
immerse myself in all this stuff so that
the people who know know when, um, when
I was working on medal of honor, 2010,
um, we would have, um, you know, we
would have consultants and we would have
people, you know, in the military come in.
And we actually had a general who
was actually part of the operation
that we were portraying in the game.
And, um, you know, he, he watched
our demo and everything and he came
away and he was kind of sweating.
And he was like, wow, that, that.
That took me back.
That was like being there.
Um, and in reality, it's, it's not,
you know, it's, it's actually a little
heightened, but when you're in the
battlefield and bullets are, wasn't
buying you and all this stuff, um,
even, even if they're half a block away,
it feels like it's right next to your
ear, you know, and there's a certain
feeling that you get when you're in the
shit and, um, and how you talk to your
friends and everything and all that.
And so we worked, we worked
hard to capture that vibe.
Right.
And we got confirmation when we bring
in people and we bring in people not
just to say, Hey, you know, um, give
us some cool lingo so we can just
throw it around randomly, you know,
we brought it in to go, Hey, does
this feel like when you were there?
And they were like, holy crap,
that ferric when I was there.
Um, and so I tend to kind of
want to cater to those people.
I like to cater the people that want
the thing that I'm making, you know?
Um, and when I, when you're
Benja: fighting, fighting against
the producer, because they said,
Hey, that wasn't on the lingo sheet.
What was that?
Tony: Oh, yeah.
There's a lot of that as it goes on, too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Suits, um, suits are funny.
Um, uh, You know, and, and,
and we speak in general terms.
So it's not everybody.
Um, it's not, it's never, always,
it's never everything and everyone,
or no one and no, no nothing.
Um, sorry, internet, the world is not
zero sum, but I have worked with, um,
I work with a fair amount of execs who
just in, in some form or another didn't
get it or certainly didn't get me.
Um, you know, they they're like,
oh, well, you know this trend here.
And I go, that's great, but I,
I'm not going to chase a trend.
You know, I understand the cost of entry.
I understand what
people's expectations are.
I also want to be ahead of
that because we're not going to
come out for another 18 months.
So why should I worry about
what someone's doing now?
I should be where I'm hoping
the next man's doing tomorrow.
You're telling me what they did yesterday.
Like, I don't care about that.
Or, um, I don't care because
that doesn't fit this, uh, you
know, that doesn't fit this game.
I swear.
Like, um, if I let, if I let the
exact do what he wanted, then we
would have had, um, gears of stridor.
It would have been all dark and
gray and dreary, um, and serious.
And dude, bro, um, it would've, it
would've gotten canceled and if it didn't
get canceled, it would have been one
of those things that you kind of like
that like that bomber man that they made
that was all like gritty and high-tech
and it would have been like that.
It would have been like, somebody
would have said, oh man, seed.
That's why you don't let
Westerners touch these things.
You know?
And I didn't want to be that
guy, especially not for Strider.
That's like stridor is
near and dear to my heart.
I saw that in the arcade in like 89, I
got a Genesis in, I think it was like
91 after, you know, after I played my
Sonic Curt, um, uh, first thing was to
get a Strider cartridge and I played
the hell of that thing, you know?
And, um, I loved that game.
So when it came time that, um, uh,
I was at, um, so I was that double
helix and I'd been contracted.
They were working on a battleship game
for battleship the movie, the game.
Um, oh man.
Yeah.
And, um, uh, we didn't know that the
movie was going to be, you know, so,
uh, what it was, uh, we didn't know
it was going to be like that, but,
um, you know, they had, they worked
out some stuff and, um, they had been
working on it for, I think probably
a month or two before I got on it.
Um, and, um, they needed someone
that, uh, so it was that double helix.
I left double helix and they needed
someone that knew FPSs, um, you know,
could lead a team in a short amount of
time for, to do a quality job because
we had five months on that game.
Um, plus the time that I wasn't on it.
So basically that game was like seven
months start to finish the game,
battleship Kim and it's first person
shooter, um, in the Slayer engine,
that Slayer engine that was built
for third-person personal 3d combat.
Right, right.
So, uh, I was contacted because
I know the engine inside now
and I helped architect it.
Um, I know how to lead people.
Um, and, um, you know, I was 11
minutes away from the office, so I was
certainly willing to come in and, uh,
see, and I was amazed actually at how,
how good a first person shooter, uh,
implementation they had going in the edge.
It it's like, wow.
I mean, it wasn't caught, you know,
and it certainly wasn't destiny,
which is destiny is like, but, um,
it was, um, it was really good.
So I was like, oh, well, that's nice.
Um, what short term contract?
Sure.
I need some Christmas money.
Okay.
Um, yeah, because I could roll out of
bed and I mean, it was like people that
I knew, um, engine, I knew insight now.
Sure.
Why not?
And like I said, um, short amount of
time, you know, like no time whatsoever.
And, um, so there's stridor comes
right after that, so, yes, sorry to
sorry to drag someone, but real quick.
So yeah.
Then, um, um, They wanted to
keep me around all this stuff.
So they like, uh, you know, said, Hey,
can you help us with this pitch for
this, uh, uh, fight game for the Xbox,
you know, the like killer instinct.
I'm like, oh, sure.
So I helped write the pitch doc for
that, you know, and like, um, I had a
partner in crime on Buffy who did all the
combat James Goddard, who also worked on
super street fighter and all that stuff.
Uh, he was at Microsoft.
Um, so you know, that
kind of helped three.
So the whole thing, um, and I was
going to bounce, you know, I was
like, okay, did you pitch for, uh,
did you pitch for killer instinct,
did this, this lovely, uh, first
person shooter, pinging, whatever.
Um, and, uh, that's when the studio
heads said, Hey, Tony, um, uh, have
you heard of a game called stridor?
Like you must be kidding you,
you really must be, uh, uh,
like I have a bucket list.
Number three on my video game bucket
list is make a game like Strider.
Um, and you're telling me I can
make Strider, not like Strider,
just I can make strike yet.
And I said to him, I
said, these exact words.
I said, you get stressed.
And it's mine.
No, no, no, no coat nothing,
no, no interference, nothing.
It's mine.
And I will, I will make that for you.
And it will be the best thing that
the studio has put out in years.
And he was like, um,
Benja: they didn't understand the passion.
Tony: Yeah.
You know, the studio had
like, yeah, he doesn't really
recognize that kind of passion.
Um, you know, he has his heroes that
he worships and all that fun stuff.
But, um, someone being passionate
about this bizarro and may like, you
know, weird, like LSD trip that with
a sword that doesn't even authority,
like none of it made any sense
to him and he wasn't feeling it.
And so to him, it was, um, it was
a solid business move to, you know,
um, do the, do the games with Capcom,
get in there and all that stuff.
And I mean, the nuts, um, it
certainly made its money back,
um, hand over fist easily.
Um, uh, I think it's like list if
they have a, they have a top, uh,
like a top 100 Capcom, like in
revenue and all that fun stuff.
And it's like, it's, it's in their top 20.
So, um, yeah, it made its money, but,
um, Yeah, that was, uh, and for the
most part, people did kind of stay out
of my way, but, um, you know, I had
to interact with, uh, Japan, um, like
pretty much every other day, um, uh,
at first, and then it was once a week.
Um, sometimes I kind of had to say to
him, um, I understand that it's your
property, but I think that you may
not understand your property anymore.
And I have a better handle on
what people are expecting from it.
And the thing is, is, um, uh, Japanese
and, uh, especially Capcom, uh, the
people I interacted with Capcom,
um, are very much, uh, uh, kind of
put up or shut up, you know, it's
like, um, and I appreciate that.
Like, um, I'm a hustler, I believe in
meritocracy, you know, and I believe
that if someone says they're going
to do something, they should do it.
And so if you're going to puff up
your chest and say, you're a bad
ass, not less than be about it.
Right.
So, um, when I would tell them,
um, it's going to be like X, Y, and
Z and all this, and they go, Hmm.
Hmm.
Okay.
Well, and they gave me enough rope
to, um, you know, the hang myself
and go, okay, well, you said, you
said you were going to do this.
Let's see it....
.How much time did you
have on the project?
Um, 18 months.
Okay.
Yes.
Uh, the credits are much longer,
but there's 22 people for 18 months.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, like they basically backed off.
And then at that point, really,
we're just about, , making sure
that the stridor character and, uh,
and a couple of other characters,
like, uh, the female, , fighters
caught the winds that are in there.
They designed those and they were
big on, making sure that, uh,
they were executed a certain way.
, otherwise, , it got to the point that
we're like, yeah, whatever, , whatever
Tony says, , because I would put
up, you know, um, and I think that's
important for anybody to be honest, like
Benja: at some point when, when you're
making an, a situation, uh, there,
the talk and the graphs and whatever
else that you're putting out there.
But I definitely agree
with you on that one.
I got into the habit of putting out demos,
something touchable, you know, Imagery
fully rendered in game or whatever,
whatever I needed to do to communicate,
no, this is actually something tangible.
Show it to your friends
and watch what they say.
Right,
Tony: right.
Show me the money.
Um, but yeah, I mean, and so that,
that worked out, it wasn't always 100%
super smooth and all that fun stuff.
I would have loved to have had
a little more time, a few more
people, but it is what it is and
super proud, of, Strider 2014.
It's interesting.
Someone the other day said to me that they
didn't know, they were saying it to me.
I mean, they've said it to me, but
they didn't put me where we was.
And they said, I wish that they had
not made it into a Metroid-Vania and
instead made it like the old arcade game.
Um, and I said, um, thank you for
acknowledging that Symmetra Albania,
because, um, a lot of gatekeepers who
believe that Metro venues are only
2d pixel things, um, don't want to
acknowledge stridor as a Metro bank, but I
sure spent a lot of time and effort making
sure that thing was a damn Metro venue.
Um, but, uh, I told him, you know, the
thing is that, um, in 1989 you could put
out a game that was a half an hour long.
You know, you could put out that, that
cartridge or put that in the article.
Yeah, but in 2014 you can't do that.
You can't even, you, you just can't.
I mean, unless I don't know what,
what's the, what's the game that
coined the term walking simulator.
Um,
Benja: oh, um, right.
Um, dear, dear Esther.
Tony: Right?
Dear Esther gone home, things like that.
Right.
Those things, those things
can be Movielink right.
Because they're largely
all about that narrative.
Um, and if you get someone that's speeding
through it, well, then they're kind of
missing the point of, of the game, but
we're talking about an action game.
Um, where, um, as I said, you
know, he's a hot pair of scissors
slicing through the city.
And I said, so we're
not gonna slow it down.
And it's funny, people
thought that it was slower.
Um, they don't understand how 3d
works and that really, you know,
when you're this size and a screen
versus this size, you know, perception
thing is actually eight times faster.
But anyway, um, it's faster.
It's more nimble.
He, you know, can take
more than three hits.
Um, I mean, like all these, all these
factors add up to, if I built, um, um,
a game like the original arcade game, it
would be over in half an hour to an hour.
Not only, not only that, but to me, like.
And it's weird for me to say as someone
that takes ownership, boom, straight 2014.
Um, I feel that the heir apparent to
Strider is somewhere in between, um,
like mega man X and Bayonetta right.
I'll take that.
And, um, so the thing is like with,
uh, with, uh, and actually our
original timeline was like 14 months.
Um, so with, um, with that kind of time
and resources to attack it as if I'm
going to make Bayonetta, which is a
lot of one off show pieces and stuff.
I mean, if you look, I don't know,
maybe it's 50, 50, maybe it's 60, 40.
A lot of, a lot of stuff in bandana is,
is like, like a call of duty, you know,
it's, it's, uh, it's just a big showpiece.
And, um, to me, if you want to
make a linear arcade game on
Strider, then you're going to be
doing a lot of those show pieces.
Or at least that's what I would do.
I would make a side
scrolling Bayonetta right.
But it's like, we can't do that.
So
Benja: how long did, how long did
stridor ended up being a total
run length or average run life?
I
Tony: guess.
So that's the funny thing.
So, um, After you do something for a long
enough, you, you get a pretty good feel
for things, or at least it should be able
to, um, uh, captain Japan was stressing
over the amount of time that, uh, they
thought the game would be, they were like,
uh, we think it's going to be too short
as, because they were skipping around.
Um, and they had, they had codes
and everything, so they can skip
around and they could, they could
start off the game fully maxed and
just, just mob on the entire game.
Right.
So they thought it was going to be,
they were expressing that they thought
it was going to be two or three hours.
And I said, I can guarantee
you it'll be four hours, but
it'll probably be more like six.
And they like, Ooh, whatever.
Then when we hit alpha,
here's the funny part.
When we hit alpha, we took out
the coats and everything they had.
Um, they had people on their end play
through to try and get a feel for
the amount of time that would take.
And.
They said we have one guy that's
been playing for 20 hours.
So what's funny is there's a meme
out there that has, um, Snoop
dog and he's going to do it.
Come on.
Yeah, he's got a control.
He's got that controller in his hand.
And, um, and it says, uh, uh, Strider his,
that when I've been playing for 20 hours,
because like the, when it had alpha,
before it was all tuned in everything, it
was a hard game and it was long, 20 hours,
20 hours is too much like that game, like
game couldn't really sustain 20 hours.
That's the other thing I think
a lot of people don't, um, think
about or understand, um, uh, time
to get in time to get out, like
don't overstay your well sure.
I worked, I worked briefly
on a game called Bob.
It was a platform on the Genesis and
the guy was a little construction hat.
Um, no, no, no.
You're thinking of hardhat Mac.
Um, uh, Bob was a little orange robot.
Um, it was very mega man ask.
Um, it was an early second Genesis
game and, um, I said, so we had to
get shipped with like 43 levels.
Uh, if you count boss fights.
And I said, uh, we
should cut it down at 26.
And they were like, oh, you know, we
have this mail and I couldn't do it.
And I said, you don't have 43 levels
of content, but you do have 26.
Like we can do 26.
I can tighten it up and all
this and bam, bam, bam, bam.
Right.
To me, it's, it's better to, um, just go
out on a bang or, you know, always have a
certain level of engagement and quality.
And I'd rather, I would rather be shorter
as long as it meets a certain criteria
that, you know, certain value criteria.
I, I would rather be shorter than to
overstay my welcome and have people go.
Yeah, sounds great.
You know, that was not great.
I didn't finish it.
I get what you're saying with the, um,
Benja: and I'm, I'm, I'm hearing more
of your philosophy here, I guess in
general with, uh, you know, have that
authenticity, don't overstay your welcome.
You're making a nice presentation
that has a beginning and an end
and you just kind of enjoy it and
maybe you go, you know, beginning
and end may not be the right word.
Cause you can go back and
replay as often as you like.
Um, but taking all of that, how do you,
uh, how did you decide to go really
quickly into the whole retro ninja thing?
I believe that's, I, I don't know if you
went indie before that or decided to do
an independent party before retro ninja.
Tony: But you're doing so.
Um, and yes.
Oh, it's true.
Real quick on stridor.
I did have an amazing producer.
Um, he was a, um, uh, Jorge was my dog
and he was there with me in every single
one of those, um, uh, meetings, uh, with
the Japanese and, and, uh, Capcom Japan.
Um, you have no idea what it's like to
sit in a room for three hours with, um,
people talking and they don't know that,
you know what they're talking about.
Um, cause I know enough Japanese
know what they were talking
about before they were talking.
Um, so horny and I would be
like, yeah, they're saying
this, they're gonna do this.
Oh look, look, they just sit that.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, Jorge kept it together.
Uh, but yeah, to address, um, uh, why
say again, because red turned into, um,
Benja: going into the indie scene
Tony: with the retro ninja.
So, um, many times I've joked
and said I should be on my
third failed company by now.
Um, and I, I, I could always find an
excuse as to why I never went out on.
Um, and really that, that was,
you know, fierce the mind killer.
It was just like this whole, like,
uh, like how could I do that?
How could I go out on my own,
you know, blah, blah, blah.
Um, so I, I put that on
myself and just kept working.
Um, and it's good because, you know,
you get a lot of experience and
all that fun stuff, but, um, being
at Amazon like Amazon's ambitions,
um, and what they want to do and
everything in the gaming space didn't
really align with what I wanted to do.
And I know this sounds like, like,
you know what people say, oh, you
know, the band broke up because
we had creative differences.
Uh, but really like, you know, what
Amazon wants to do and who they want
to touch and everything is not, um,
not really where, where I want to be.
Um, you know, all, all this, all,
let's talk about, you know, mechanics
focus and all this kind of stuff.
So that's not just talk, you know, those
aren't just buzzwords that are sitting
in the back of my head that that's me.
And that's, that's where
my head's at right now.
And that's what I wanted to do.
Um, and so the stars kind of
aligned, whereas like, yeah, and,
you know, COVID helps, uh, both.
You know what, maybe this is
really where I should break out on
my own and, and do my own thing.
And finally, like part of it's
also, uh, I have ideas, I have
ideas every single day, you know?
Um, and it, and it's
been that way forever.
There was a time where
actually suppressed ideas.
Um, and I actually stopped, like I
remember, I remember being in the biz,
like really in the business for like
10 years and going, I used to have all
these great ideas, where are all those
ideas go and like convinced myself
and said, oh, I know it's because
I know so much about the business.
Now.
I know what sells it.
Won't won't sell.
Um, and so I would start, I
would just like stuff, a pop in
my head and I go and flush it.
Right.
Benja: So it's the
kind of short-circuiting, you
know, because of what, you know,
short circuiting, all your ideas
because, oh, well this is this.
And that's that.
So,
Tony: yeah.
And I mean, that happens to
people that happens to people on,
on every front, in their life.
Right.
They, um, let outside influences or,
or kind of the life they've been living
really, um, for lack of a better term,
inhibit them from being their true self.
Right.
Uh, so, um, then there was a point
and I've been doing this forever.
Um, there was a point where I was.
Yeah.
Um, you know what I'm doing this,
just keep track of those ideas, you
know, and whether I worked them into
something that I'm working on or they're
just ideas that I write, you know?
So I started writing
down every single thing.
The thing
Benja: that made you stop and say, Hey,
um, I'm not re um, keeping track of
these ideas or what they're, they're like
someone asks you for a list of ideas that
I'm seeing like, holy crap, what happened?
All those ideas I used to have, or,
Tony: um, if that came about any certain
way it's, um, I think it comes from
like, and this is part of why I went
independent is, um, getting, like,
if you look outside of your bubble or
even if you're even looking inside your
bubble or whatever, like you're looking
at, um, other people's work, right.
And you go, oh, I would
have loved to make that.
I think that everybody has that, right.
They have like something that they look
at and they go, I will love to have made
that I would love to work on that movie.
I would loved it.
And that song, I would love
to have made that game.
Right.
Or in my case, not just the, I would
have loved to have made that game, but
in my case, I had the idea for that game.
Someone else did it.
Um, now.
Here.
Here's a big Tonyism and I've said
it for light years, and I'll say that
again, ideas are free execution costs.
So I'm not going to look at someone
else making the game that I wanted
to make and didn't make, and then
be like, you know, oh, I hate them.
They stole my idea because first
of all, how did they steal my idea?
Unless I put it out there.
Right.
And I didn't, so they
didn't steal my idea.
What they did was the cosmos
gave them the same thought and
they executed on that idea.
Right.
I sat around with some of
the house and didn't do it.
Right.
So, yeah, I'm looking at, um, I'm
looking at a flood of things just
as, as, especially as Indies,
um, became more prevalent.
Um, I'm starting, I start to
see things where I'm like yep.
Wanted to make, that would love
to make that, had that idea.
Didn't do it.
Didn't do it.
It didn't do it.
And these things are stacking up and
I'm just like, this is ridiculous.
This is ridiculous.
Um, I'm, I'm at a really,
I'm at a great job.
Um, but I'm watching the world go by.
I'm watching people out there running
and dancing and jumping and singing,
and I want to dance and jump and sing.
And I know I can, but instead
I'm just going to sit there
and watch them from the.
window So, you know, all these things
come together and it's like, forget it.
All right.
I'm good.
And that's part of the
name, you know, retro ninja.
It was from the fact that, um, a lot
of the S you know, like if it's in my
DNA to make these, these types of games
and like, I'm not, I'm not trying to
be retro retro, because I did that.
I'm not, I'm not looking at, um, games
that I grew up with and then trying
to ape them without an understanding
of how they became that way.
I am basically just going back into
my memory and going, oh yeah, that's
why we did X, like Y and blah, blah.
So, um, and I was, I was actually not
gonna do it because I'm good for that.
I'm the procrastinator.
Um, and really my wife was
like, you better do this.
This is, this is your time.
You better do this.
Um, w
Benja: I wondered if you were going to say
something a little more, uh, ultimatum.
It's like, um, you know, Hey, if you
Tony: don't do this, or, uh, well,
I mean, or if you're going to do
this, you need to, I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, it's partially.
It's partially that, you know,
um, my wife's my biggest fan.
Um, my, you know, my second biggest
fans and the two sets of twins and
they're all like, you should do it.
Um, and, um, and like I said, my
wife's like, you better, you got
to make sure the wife's happy.
Um, and I was in between
projects on, you know, at Amazon.
And it was like, they were trying
to figure out what they were doing.
And it's just like, you know what,
let me make this easy for me.
Um, and, and I didn't Amazon, like,
I'm not sure if they still have this
policy, but they had like a policy of
no side projects and all that stuff.
So it wasn't really like, I I'm
a big rule follower with that.
Cause I, you know, it didn't feel like
being sued or whatever the hell goes down.
If you did a side project and
didn't tell him, so I'd never,
I had these ideas and whatnot.
I never would actually, I wasn't
like I was like working on them,
you know, just time was ticking by.
So it was like, Um, I'm
not going to be an ass man.
I start a real company, so it's nice
and legit, and I'm going to execute on
these ideas, um, which is also why I,
um, am crazy and people like, how are you
working on, you know, I think people know
of three of the games that I'm working
on, they all know about the other stuff.
Uh, like how are you working
on so many things at once?
Um, and it's like, I I've had these
things gestating, you know, for awhile.
Um, I have, um, a fairly wide array
of, you know, disciplinary talents.
Um, you do.
And I think, um, it's not
the most efficient way.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest that people
take on two and three projects at once,
especially if you're trying to execute
them at like a X bla level or, or higher.
Um, but there, I think for a lot of
Indies, they might, um, empathize
with the fact that they're working on
something and then they get a little
burnt on it and then they get burnt on it.
They generally, um, either
barely nudge it along.
Maybe they mess it up.
Maybe they, they leave it
dormant for a long time.
You know, all these kinds of things.
Um, what I do is I go, okay, I'm
having a mental block on this.
Oh, that's okay.
Over here.
I've got this.
Um, and so I, I make these shifts.
Uh, now what's interesting is, like I
said before, I, when I immersed myself in,
in, you know, whatever game I'm working
on, um, that's where the issue comes in.
So it's ha I see.
Yeah, it literally is like, if I'm working
on say run, die, run again, which is a
first person platform or right on set in
some sort of bizarro dystopian, um, uh,
contest, um, when I'm working on that.
And then I shift to BPM boy, which is
a, top-down kind of homage to rollers,
like, uh, model madness and, uh,
super monkey ball and games like that.
When I shift, um, it takes me a few
days to actually get in the groove
of either or, um, uh, so it's like
a conscious thing of, okay, this is
RDR are a week or two or a month.
You know, this is BPM month because
I'm bouncing back and forth, back and
forth between those is a bit tough.
There are different vibes.
Yeah.
And like, I even purposely may the music,
if the music is still me, but the music
is different on either like, like RDRs
has got, you know, industrial and no drum
and bass and trap, like most of the, the
trap and drill I let my son take care of.
Um, uh, but then BPM is all
like house and, and jazz fusion.
It's, it's, it's a love letter to
nineties, you know, it had her very
Sega and, and all that, even though
it's primarily for the Atari, it's
got a kind of a Sega Dreamcast.
It, you know, all that, all those
soundtracks where drinks and all
that, it's got all that kind of vibe.
So with
Benja: switching back and forth,
um, I do that in other projects
as well, but that keeps your eye.
Does it keep your just energy flowing
instead of like stopping the car, you
get to stop the car, jumping into another
one and keep going so you can keep
Tony: okay.
Right.
And I, and like I said, I don't suggest it
for everyone, but I think that, I honestly
think that there are people out there that
don't realize they have that capacity.
And can, they don't have to both
both projects or the side project
for the site project doesn't have to
be gigantic or, or of equal weight.
I think that a lot of people
underestimate, um, kind of the boost
you get from not just, you know, not
just taking a step back and it just, it
just being, but taking a step laterally
sideways and going, oh, okay, I'm going
to work on this thing over here because it
doesn't have all the baggage of that thing
has like there's, um, between my games,
um, there's a bunch of code, like each
one does the, the previous thing better.
Right?
Like, and there's code that, um, there's
code that's in a, B BPM that helped,
um, a run dye run again, immensely.
Um, I would've had a hard time, uh, kind
of, you know, prototyping and figuring
out the stuff in RDRs because that
project has, is gotten to a certain size
and everything and has it, you know,
it's, it's solidifying into certain into
something, but then this other little
side thing, you know, that I could try
stuff out on because it was a lighter
weight project and like, oh, okay, cool.
That worked, you know, ink and
then drill it back into there.
Yeah.
And they inform each other.
Yes.
Yes.
Um, and like I said, it, it, um, it
allows me to keep active and, um,
and still learning, uh, cause every.
I, I would always say this and
I'll say it again is, um, the,
the day that I wake up knowing
everything is a day I wake up dead.
So I'm always learning regardless
of, of 36 years in business or not.
You're always learning, but, um,
you know, so I keep learning.
Um, but I'm not, I'm not getting to the
point where I hate either, you know,
either of my projects, any of them.
Good, cool.
Yeah.
Benja: Good, good for us.
Um,
Tony: it just, it just, it takes a little
longer, you know, it, but to be honest,
I don't know if it takes that much longer
because there would be those times, like,
and there were a couple of times where
I was working on our DRA and I was just
like, like, I can't touch this thing.
I'm so done with it.
Especially like COVID helped accelerate
that because, um, then you're not,
you're not out and about, um, and taking
breaks from it out in the sunshine
and all that from stuff you're just
like, oh, okay, well, everybody's
playing hermit, I'll play hermit.
And you know, and then you're just
hyper-focused and that helps to burn you.
I think so.
No,
Benja: it's a, it's a good way
to, uh, prevent, prevent burnout.
Um, just by jumping on
other pieces of something.
I think I've done that most of my
areas of work with, if I'm working on
some module here, then I'll work on.
Even if it's the same game, you know, I'll
just keep jumping from different modules.
Cause they kind of inform each other
and it helps keep a, uh, cyclical
flow going on my, in my output.
So I totally get you there.
Um, do we have any dates
maybe on a RCRA or I saw it on
the S on the steam wishlist.
Um, and I added it.
Tony: Yeah.
You know, man, somewhere along the
lines, Dean made it a pain in the
ass to change the, uh, release date.
Um, but, um, so RDR a, uh, well
actually everything at this
point definitely next year.
Um, because you know, we're, we're
at the end of this year, um, BPM
boy, which is, like I said, the
jazzy marble Matt Nessie thing.
Um, that's grown, um,
that will be out first.
Um, and that'll be out within, you know,
Chang like probably late January, um,
early fed at the latest on the Atari VCs.
And I know people are like,
what the hell is that?
What did I mention that
I was a big Atari fan?
I think I did.
Right.
I guess where I got my start, um,
Atari, uh, Atari corporate or whatever
they want to call themselves now.
Um, They built a console, they built a new
console and, um, a friend of mine reached
out and said, Hey, um, check this out.
And I looked and see, I don't have all
the animosity and baggage that a lot of
people have towards this Atari entity.
Um, and I talked to the people, but
I talked, I talked to the people
and they seemed really genuine.
Right.
Like, um, and I said, okay, fine.
Send me a dev kit.
I get the dev kit.
I dive into it on paper.
The specs are not good.
Um, I think the specs are somewhere
in, you know, like, uh, like a, a few
year old cell phone at this point.
Um, but you know, specs or specs compared
to what you actually do with them.
And I, like, I kind of like a challenge.
So I started messing
around with the machine.
Um, and I actually, um, have another
game though, talking about in a sec.
Um, and so I started figuring out what I
could do with it and what it could take
before I broke it into a million pieces.
And it said that cell phones, fire.
So I really liked the community there.
They're primarily positive.
Um, the machine has done
pretty well actually.
Um, even though nobody knows about
it, um, COVID and the lack of PS
fives and, uh, X-Box whatevers
Benja: and there's no, uh, there's
no like, um, SNES many or this as
many going around this this year, so
Tony: we have, right.
And so this, and what's
interesting, is this a target?
Um, here I am still an attorney
now, but, um, you know, this thing,
um, here's one of the controllers.
Um, it actually has a real controller,
I mean, uh, modern control as we like
call it awesome, uh, dev kits over there.
But, um, it's, it's interesting
because it's, uh, it's kind of like
this hybrid console, computer thing,
a lot of people, um, a lot of people
like, uh, day one when cyber punk came
out, we're running it on this thing,
you know, it's a streaming monster.
I don't even understand like, I, my
games, this surprise, the game's not
going to run in 4k on it, you know,
especially like fidelity that I do, but
this thing will stream the hell out of 4k.
Um, and, um, so.
A lot of people are
using it for streaming.
Um, it's, it's an emulation beef.
Um, and then of course there's, you
know, original games for it that
have been trickling in not like a
flood or anything because people are
like, there's an Atari, you know?
But, um, so it's kinda like,
for me, it makes sense.
It's like, okay, I'm
starting my own thing.
I'm kinda like basically
hitting the reset button.
So I'm going back.
I'm going to make my own games
upfront, you know, a couple of those.
So, you know, a couple
of these are all solo.
Um, and, uh, but I'm going to be staffing
up because it's like not to say that.
So accompanies are fake companies,
but it's a real company.
Um, and I haven't lost friends
and, you know, we like to make cool
stuff, um, at, uh, for other people.
So we might as well start, you
know, start pulling in people and
make cool stuff or retro ninja.
But, um, yeah, so that's why this game,
uh, BPM boy we'll be debuting on the
Atari is cause you know, it's near
and dear to my heart and I have the
machine and I, and I love the community.
Um, and they seem to be showing me love.
So, um, yeah, and eventually it'll be
everywhere or whatever because, um, uh,
When I'm making it, I could turn RTX on.
It looks, it looks ridiculous.
And so it's kind of a disservice,
not to eventually put out some, some
ridiculous looking version of it anyway.
Uh, so he came first and then,
uh, then our DRA, and then after
that, uh, do you want to an office
Benja: with you, you said you weren't
Tony: going to
Benja: do, are you actually going to
announce this one or is it already out
Tony: there?
No, no.
Well, I talked about, there's a game
called, uh, uh, chaos chassis and it is
so when I first got the kit and started
doing stuff and I said, oh, I should.
Um, oh yeah.
And the, the name is purposely like that.
Um, the, uh, logo kind of hearkens back
to late eighties, early nineties, like
the way that, um, European, you know,
logos would go with the gradients and
all that, it kind of has a little bit
of that vibe, plus a little bit of the
Japanese, like in T creates kind of
vibe and Chaska cave, that chaos chassis
that's the first time I've said it wrong.
Um, uh, started life as, um,
was going to be combat 30, 84.
So it was going to be an updated
combat for the Atari 2,600.
Right.
Um, but then I was like, you know, I'm
not really a PVP guy and, um, to build
just a PVP game and the modern era, you
know, really it has to be live services.
Now, like I started going down
that road, which is a bad road.
It, it, it's bad habits thought of,
you know, that AAA give you is like,
oh, you got to have all this and turn
it into a cash register and all that.
So, well, I've never heard that
Benja: phrase.
You got to turn it into a cash register.
Tony: Um, so, uh, no,
nobody had heard of her.
The you're going to scoop here and
nobody heard about the combat and
they're like PVP tankers tank thing.
Um, I announced it as Cass chassis.
Um, and I, I would say not one week
in the past 15 years, at least I
have, I have, has a week gone by
without someone asking me or asking
out neath or for a new strike game.
Right.
And, um, I have avoided that, uh, for
various reasons, but, uh, as one of the
architects of strike, I can roll out
of bed and make a strike in my sleep.
Like I understand all of it,
the formula, like hands down.
Right.
Um, so I'm looking at this tank.
Should I, yeah.
Yeah.
I probably could.
I probably should.
I think I, um, um, and so it, it
morphed from PVP to PVE and not just
as you know, for scrolling shooter a
schmuck as a column nowadays, um, it
mutated into basically a co-op future
strike and strike on treads strike.
Well they're tanks in the loosest term,
their tanks in the same way that there's
tanks in that Namco games, cyber sled,
or virtual on, or their tank, their
hover they're hovered the tank thingys.
Right.
And they have pilots that are, you
know, rather quick to, um, and the
whole vibe of how the missions and
everything play out are very strike.
Like, um, so it's, it's open, you know,
it's like, here's, here's a mission.
Go destroy this thing,
go save these people.
Right.
But it's not a linear path.
You can approach it how you
want and all that stuff.
And just because I'm crazy, I added
to it because I was, you know,
working on the Atari and trying
to see just how far I could push
it before it blew up in my hands.
And it's amazing what makes it,
makes it cripple and slow down and
what doesn't, but I could do, um,
uh, I could do like, like, you know,
X-Box 360 PlayStation, three level
graphics on it in split screen.
So I'm, you know, so chaos chassis is
co-op it's split screen, but it's strike.
So I asked this interesting wrinkle and
it makes it, it makes it a little that
Benja: you can actually make a
pretty good, good pitch out of that.
I think, um, I, I liked the vibe that
you gave me so far split split-screen
strike with tanks or hover tanks.
However you want to put it together.
I'm sorry if I know you're a concept
Tony: there and, um, it's, um,
it's interesting because, um,
strike was a solo affair, right?
But now you can do pincer, maneuvers,
you know, people can flank.
It actually has, uh, some vibe of
a game, uh, down the people know
about called army of to where.
Yeah.
Like there's a whole system that
I coded where the AI, because I
needed them to not look stupid if,
if they were hammering on one player
and then the other player came up.
So they have like a whole, they have
a whole, um, system that's going
on, where they, they read, who hurt
them, how much, how fast, how close.
Um, and they have agro meters,
every, every little guy on, on the
screen in some way or another is
calculating who's the best one can
engage with, um, at any given time.
And so what that does is that allows
you to have some, one player lay
down, suppression fire, and then the
other one, you know, silently sneak
around and then just like, yeah.
Pincer, which you can
never do in any sort of,
Benja: so is the, is the co-op, um,
real quick, I'm just kinda wondering if
the, how the co-op made it work with,
um, you know, the split screen and not
dealing with all the server nonsense
as opposed to the PVP, uh, how much.
Tony: Um, well, PVP means that I have
to balance players versus players.
And I'm balancing is never an
easy job, but it is easier when,
um, when it's the player versus
enemies, because an enemy it's not a
scream and go, Hey, that was cheap.
You just hit me for 25% more because,
because this guy thought, you know,
you're being a schlub for the past
10 minutes and decided to mess
with some values underneath it.
What I thought, which I did
a lot of in my games, what
Benja: I thought you were
getting at was the, um, a
Tony: lot of
Benja: the server remote play mechanics.
Oh, well, yeah.
I thought you
Tony: were getting at, and the reason
I even tried switch screen was because
at that time, um, again, remember
this started out as a, as a, uh,
prototype running on the Atari VCs.
Um, and at that time they weren't
even released, they were just about to
send to founders, uh, the Kickstarter.
So, um, I had no networking solution
and they weren't like, they were like,
we're trying to get these units out.
Like, we'll get back to you.
So they weren't like, Hey, yeah, let's
work on some big networking solution
and server hosting and all that stuff.
So I was like, you know what?
This seems like, and to me it still
is, it seems like the kind of machine
that is, uh, Kind of built for couch.
Co-op a lot of the games that are
on it, our couch co-op good stuff.
And, um, there's a game, uh, unsung
heroes is great little platformer.
It like looks like any other platform or
no offense to the guys that are making it.
Um, I mean, if you're into like 2d
platformers on the PC or whatever,
you know, you go, oh, okay.
Here's another one it's kind of cool.
Right.
Uh, but I played it on the dev kit
and I was like, oh, this is much
better than it looks on the surface.
Oh, this is really fun.
My son, cause it said co-op play.
And we played together and I
was like, that's it, that's it.
This tank nonsense.
And I'm working on, we're going to
try it and co-op oh, we've met it.
Didn't come up.
This is fun.
Okay.
Very cool.
All right.
Hey toady, this is good stuff.
Uh, no, no, don't be sorry at
Benja: all.
Um, we jumped on your
philosophy, your history.
Tony: Um, you took us
Benja: through a lot of the different
places you've been and where you're going.
Well, we'll have to, you know, I
actually want to do a multi-screen, um,
kind of get together and talk around
the, the Instagram version of that.
You can get four people on this thing.
So, um, we'll get some people
together with some drinks and
talk to eat three stories one day.
Tony: But, um, but
Benja: is there anything, uh, else
that you want to make sure that people
get across from, you know, what you're
putting out there, why you saving
games, any parting words, advice,
Tony: even if you'd like, um, let's see,
I don't know for advice, um, make stuff,
you know, and make stuff you want to play.
If you don't want to play it.
I mean, uh, paycheck to
paycheck and all that.
That's fun.
Um, whether they say there's work at the
post office, um, uh, but really like make
something and make what you want to play.
Um, and for any budding,
um, game developers.
And when I get into this and stuff, um,
besides the make stuff, um, take your
smallest idea and cut that in half,
and then realize that you're only going
to be able to execute half of that.
And.
And, and execute it.
You know, retro ninjas has been
incorporated for a year now.
Um, I haven't shipped, oh,
wait, it's been two years.
It's going on two years.
See, I'm gonna ship.
I haven't shipped.
Um, so, you know, I can just be
talking out of my ass, but, um, that's
what, what counts is getting it out.
Right.
And that's why I say take your
smallest idea and cut that in half.
Um, don't do what I did.
I think,
Benja: I think that's actually more
difficult now with, uh, social media,
something about the internet and
talking to people it's just easier
to talk about stuff than actually
Tony: do it.
Don't
Benja: be about, about it
Tony: really seriously.
I mean, and I understand that that
today's society and I sound like an old
guy when I say that, but I understand
that, um, a lot of people are being
rewarded for talking right now.
Um, I'm not hating, but I'm talking
about that has that, you know, unless
you understand how to capitalize on that.
And, and just kind of like, even
like, like, uh, you know, people
that have ball careers, right?
Like the money.
Yeah.
They, they get the money from,
from the signing and all that in a
career, but the real money and the
real like legacy comes from what
you do outside of that ball career.
Cause that that's like a bright
spark that burns out quick and.
Talking about it and not being about it.
Is that too, like, yeah.
Okay.
Now you can, you know, you can make a
bunch of money and all that fun stuff.
You can be the ACE family.
Sure.
You can go and talk about it
and not really be about it,
but that's going to burn out.
Right.
So what do you do for your longevity?
Um, and that's why I say like, I, I
encourage everybody to make a game.
I encourage us, especially the people out
there using terms like lazy or anything
and talking crap about game devs, go and
make space invaders go and make pawn.
You will find out from the simplest.
Yup.
From end to end.
Not, not like I have an
idea and I talked about it.
Right.
Or I, you know, I grabbed the template
from the asset store and I, and then
I shipped it like, no, I mean, from
end to end, make something right.
And make it small so that you
can actually get through it.
And you will find out more about game
making and more about yourself just from
making that space invader as a pawn.
Uh, I, I encourage everyone.
It should be compulsory in
school as far as I'm concerned.
Definitely.
Sound, sound words of advice for him.
Yeah.
So, uh, I mean, you were
done with that thought.
Oh, uh, you know, I could, I could yak
for days, uh, Yeah, we should probably
figure out how to chop this up for
the next year or two, like Vlad TV.
Does
Benja: you know what?
That's a, that's a, that's a thought.
Um, well I'll definitely
be getting this out.
Um, I'm going to be putting it onto
a podcast streams at some point
I'll put it out on, on YouTube.
Uh, we'll make it available and
then we can start making clips
out of it or whatever, but I'm
definitely glad I got you on here
Tony: before the year was out.
Uh, you have a lot of great
Benja: words to say.
Um,
Tony: you know, ah, thanks.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me, man.
I, I see you.
I see you.
I see you're talking all the time.
I, you know, sometimes I don't engage
because sometimes I'm pretty salty.
Uh that's okay with you, but you
know, the discussions get oh, right,
Benja: right.
Tony: Yeah.
I've always been like, you know what,
man, I need to go to the one I need
to go to little benches or shows
or something and I need to just get
out of the house and then COVID hit.
And it's like, I, yeah, well,
Benja: you know, I'm actually doing this.
Um, because I was, I was in
the mode of just kinda going
in my dungeon, doing my thing.
And then at some point I started,
I was listening to Gary V.
I was just getting into the whole
marketing sales branding side of things.
And I had actually done a lot of that
work while I was in corporate America.
But I was like, holy crap.
I need to kick it up to another level
of getting out, talking to people.
Um, and such and such and my own.
So, you know, I just said, don't
talk about it, be about it.
I was like, if I'm going to get out there,
let me revamp my, my personnel, not my
personality, my persona that I've put out,
started doing all these live Instagrams.
Uh, it started out on Facebook actually,
but Instagram ended up working out better.
Gotcha.
Now, now I'm just doing a lot of this
and still doing my development on the
side, but I had to get this part down.
So
Tony: no, it's a, it's a good thing
to get down and it's not easy again,
like with the game development,
I think everyone should try.
Anytime.
Anyone thinks that something's easy
and things think that they want to do
it, then they should try and do it.
You should definitely do it because
then you'll find out, you'll
find out how easy or not it is.
Yeah.
Either way, either way
you learn something.
Right.
So always learning and, you
know, uh, parting, parting words.
Um, so yeah, I'm, uh, 50
now it's crazy congratulate.
Um, and, uh, uh, saying to my son
the other day, I said, uh, yeah,
I'm going to be like this, like
this one guy that, um, yeah, it took
him forever to do this hit album of
his, um, this little album called.
Thriller Um, uh, that he
produced a map 50, uh, Quincy
Jones produced a thriller at 50.
So that's like inspirational.
Cause it's like, well, if Quincy
wasn't done at 50, you know, who am I?
I got, I got another 30 years of this.
I'm good.
Benja: I love the goose though, man.
So is there, how can people find you?
, Tony: you can find me everywhere.
Uh, retro ninja.com.
,
there's retro ninja games on IG and,
um, eight bit ninja is me on Twitter.
There's a retro ninja five.
Cause I guess I needed to number, um, the
idea for Facebook, there was retro ninja.
Okay.
Tony Barnes I'm I think I'm pretty easy
to find and I try to keep up, I'll keep
up with IGL more, but now that I can
actually post, um, on the PC, uh, no
offense, but I'm not always in mind.
I don't always have the good,
good on my phone, you know?
So like, uh, if I have a
trailer it's not on my phone.
I wonder if I have like cool
screenshots on my phone.
So, but thank you.
I G for finally allowing
me to post, um, via my PC.
So now there'll be more of
that, but yeah, I'm everywhere.
Cool.
Benja: All right.
I'll have that all linked up and,
um, We'll talk again, online,
offline in person or not whatever.
Um, absolutely.
And if he gets salty in
the groups, it's okay.
I'll defend, you
know, he's just a salty guy.
Oh man.
I don't know.
I'm super ultra forum fighter champion
edition so I can, yes, I can deal.
All
right.
Well, once again, I do want to thank you.
Appreciate your time.
Uh, that's been it for this one and
, yeah, as I said, I'll hit you up and
let you know when everything's posted.
Tony: Thanks Benjamin.
Take care.
Bye.