Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Interviews with top marketers sharing tactical tips, strategies, and lessons learned to help you grow your business. Hosted by Dave Gerhardt, founder of Exit Five, former CMO, and author of Founder Brand. Learn more at exitfive.com
Dave [0:00:01]: You're listening to The Dave Gerhardt Show.
Dave [0:00:02]: Alright.
Dave [0:00:17]: So George is here, George is the VP of growth at Ramp.
Dave [0:00:20]: And I I didn't actually know this before we reached out to have you on, but you also worked that gong.
Dave [0:00:25]: So you you got some cool background.
Dave [0:00:27]: Give me the two minute overview on George.
Dave [0:00:29]: How did you get the Ramp.
Dave [0:00:30]: I don't...
Dave [0:00:31]: I used to do this all the time.
Dave [0:00:32]: Like, tell me what you do, How'd what you get a degree And what you did...
Dave [0:00:35]: People like, dude just tell me how Ramp does marketing.
Dave [0:00:37]: They want they want, like, you show me cool stuff you do.
Dave [0:00:42]: But I do want a level set with your, like, background a little bit.
Dave [0:00:45]: So let's kinda like, segue into getting the VP growth role at Ramp.
George [0:00:50]: Sure.
George [0:00:50]: Well, kind of a non traditional background.
George [0:00:51]: My first career was as a analytical chemist, so studied biochemistry college.
Dave [0:00:56]: Whoa...
Dave [0:00:56]: Dude, I've talked to so many people in this space and it's always, like, a traditional background.
Dave [0:01:01]: I was an engineer.
Dave [0:01:02]: I was a musician by just...
George [0:01:04]: You might
Dave [0:01:04]: be the first was it organic chemist, would you say?
George [0:01:07]: So I studied biochemistry, but most of my was analytical chemistry.
George [0:01:10]: So I worked in a, like, an analytical lab for a while.
George [0:01:13]: I did research so I worked in a private lab.
George [0:01:15]: And I had two startups ups in kind of the biotech space doing synthetic biology.
George [0:01:18]: One that was a very, very small success.
George [0:01:21]: The one that was a mass failure.
George [0:01:22]: We got shut down by the federal government, which is a story all.
Dave [0:01:25]: We starts that you worked at or you started the company?
Dave [0:01:27]: I started.
George [0:01:27]: As a c founder.
Dave [0:01:28]: Oh, my god.
George [0:01:29]: So...
George [0:01:29]: Yeah.
George [0:01:30]: After I thought I got shut down.
George [0:01:32]: I was like, I should probably get out of the lab and learned something about business.
George [0:01:35]: That's how Ended up in tech as you do.
George [0:01:36]: And I joined a twenty person start up making scientific software for folks are working labs.
George [0:01:42]: And then I showed up the first day, like, I just applied cold.
George [0:01:46]: And I was like, what do you guys want me to do?
George [0:01:48]: And why'd why you hire me?
George [0:01:49]: We heard of your first company.
George [0:01:50]: So we figured your smart guy Can figure out email marketing, and that's kinda how I got Mark.
George [0:01:54]: I just kinda stuck with it.
George [0:01:55]: So feel like, we're dude.
George [0:01:56]: I'm like,
Dave [0:01:57]: I'm a scientist.
Dave [0:01:57]: I can absolutely figure out how to use Hubspot Like, we got this.
George [0:02:02]: Yeah.
George [0:02:02]: It's funny because I talked
Dave [0:02:04]: to so many marketers and so many marketers have this, like, existential crisis like, is this why...
Dave [0:02:09]: Is this who I am?
Dave [0:02:10]: Is this why I was put on this earth to be a B2B marketer, but then I also have...
Dave [0:02:14]: It's like grass is always greener or, like, you know, every rapper wants to be in the Nba and every Nba player wants to be a rapper.
Dave [0:02:20]: It's like, you have all these other people from, like, really smart fields and other things and they all come into marketing in business.
Dave [0:02:26]: It's very interesting to hear this.
Dave [0:02:27]: So good to get that perspective.
George [0:02:30]: Like, I always tell people that when I get to.
George [0:02:32]: Like, I don't really care that about marketing at all.
George [0:02:34]: Like, I'm not that interested.
George [0:02:35]: I just like, solving problems.
George [0:02:36]: It turns out there's always a lot of problems.
George [0:02:38]: I'm
Dave [0:02:39]: solving the fun problems.
Dave [0:02:39]: Well, I think that actually plays into, like, how you guys do marketing and a bunch of stuff you've done at Ramp and even just in your background, which is, like, when you think of VP of growth, I think my brain defaults to, like, Sean Ellis growth hacking like that era of Saas and then, like...
Dave [0:02:59]: But when I see the stuff that Ramp does, it's very much like, it's almost like, brand is the growth lever.
Dave [0:03:05]: Like, we kinda have this in our prep doc, but it's like, a lot of the stuff you're doing on the grow side.
Dave [0:03:10]: It's not just test with like, high volume landing pages and ads.
Dave [0:03:15]: It's like, no.
Dave [0:03:15]: We're gonna do this stunt with this guy in the box and times square.
Dave [0:03:19]: We're gonna, like, even just you guys send me a box of swag and I'm like, all the stuff in the box was, like stuff that I'm not gonna throw out.
Dave [0:03:26]: It's actually good stuff.
Dave [0:03:27]: Is
George [0:03:28]: like, So I mean I honestly can't take any credit for that.
George [0:03:31]: Like, most of the really creative stuff we do, like, it's not my skill that I don't spike.
George [0:03:36]: There.
George [0:03:36]: And most of the time I tell this one very talented person on my team that leads a lot of our stunt.
George [0:03:40]: And I remember, like, for the Brian stunt where we put Brian who played Kevin from the office in a box in New York.
George [0:03:47]: I was, I think it there's a terrible idea.
George [0:03:49]: I don't even gonna work at all, but there You have a lot of convictions to go for it, and she totally proved me wrong.
George [0:03:54]: And I like this tell that's trick.
George [0:03:55]: Because I think that's, like, ramped to it tee.
George [0:03:56]: It is not top down.
George [0:03:57]: It is bottoms up.
Dave [0:03:59]: There's also something that, like the conviction of things, you know?
Dave [0:04:01]: And it's, like, how bad...
Dave [0:04:02]: When someone on the team has a really strong opinion because you as a team leader or whatever role you play in the company, you can't just know everything and be everywhere and so you have to have smart people.
Dave [0:04:12]: And when someone has a...
Dave [0:04:13]: Even on our small team with x if I'm like, Alright.
Dave [0:04:16]: Is this a hill that I should die on?
Dave [0:04:17]: Like, should I be the one to kill this or like, no.
Dave [0:04:19]: They really feel like they wanna do...
Dave [0:04:21]: I got, okay.
Dave [0:04:22]: Let's do it?
Dave [0:04:22]: Like, I can't be the only smart person here?
Dave [0:04:24]: Like, you're not.
Dave [0:04:25]: So so let's level set and just...
Dave [0:04:28]: What is the structure of the marketing?
Dave [0:04:30]: Like, where does marketing fit at Ramp.
Dave [0:04:32]: I have some topics in my doctor that I wanna go through, but if we could just kinda level set and, like, I think as people listen to hearing about what you do there in growth and marketing, it's helpful just to see, like, how the org looks and where marketing fits in the org.
George [0:04:45]: Sure.
George [0:04:45]: It is a very traditional work, which is largely why I...
George [0:04:48]: Or one of the many reasons why I joined Ramp honestly.
George [0:04:50]: So it is not a essential function.
George [0:04:52]: And honestly, like, most functions that Ramp are not very centralized.
George [0:04:54]: It's very again, bottoms up, you form pods you move quickly.
George [0:04:57]: And so marketing at Ramp is product marketing, which actually sits under the product org technically.
George [0:05:02]: It is brand, which sits under a VP of brand.
George [0:05:06]: It's Comm P r a r, which actually reports up to the...
George [0:05:09]: Ahead of Comm who reports to the CEO.
George [0:05:11]: And then it's me which is growth and I report to the Cto.
George [0:05:14]: So growth at Ramp is...
George [0:05:15]: I mean, traditional stuff, paid search, paid social, like, performance marketing, It's life cycle, Seo.
George [0:05:21]: Yeah.
Dave [0:05:22]: So that's interesting.
Dave [0:05:22]: So there's no, like, C in a traditional...
Dave [0:05:24]: Many other companies there'd would be a CMO and all those rolled wood feed into the CMO?
Dave [0:05:28]: It's like, Ramp has split those up and product marketing is under product.
Dave [0:05:32]: Growth is under Cto and then some of the other more corporate marketing go to the CEO.
Dave [0:05:37]: Exactly.
Dave [0:05:38]: Exactly.
Dave [0:05:38]: Yeah.
Dave [0:05:39]: Is it good or bad?
George [0:05:41]: Do you have any opinions on that?
George [0:05:42]: I think it's been phenomenal.
George [0:05:43]: I honestly, like, feel bad for some CMOs just because I could send a lot of ways on impossible trial.
George [0:05:48]: Like, the breadth of what you have to own and be good at is very diverse compared to many other, like C level roles, and it's difficult to be sick.
George [0:05:57]: Successful, especially as, like, market changes and things accelerator with Ai.
George [0:06:00]: So I I really like the structure at ramp, and I particularly really liked being part of a more technical org, like, reporting to the Cto, the technical resources we have, like, the very logical problem solving in dreaming
Dave [0:06:10]: And also, I feel like you putting the growth into the product org kinda unlocks so, like, the keys to the kingdom in a lot of ways.
Dave [0:06:18]: Right?
George [0:06:20]: Oh, yeah.
George [0:06:20]: For sure.
George [0:06:20]: And I mean a lot of credit also goes to Kareem the Cto.
George [0:06:23]: Like, he's incredibly open minded.
George [0:06:24]: Like, whether it's crazy stunt or we do a lot of crazy experiments, like, going back to how I don't consider myself a particularly good marketer, but I am a decent problem solve.
George [0:06:34]: We solve them solve our problems, but just running a bunch of experiments.
George [0:06:36]: So Yeah.
George [0:06:37]: I appreciate that.
Dave [0:06:38]: That's a classic good marketing guy say that because I think, actually, what does that mean?
Dave [0:06:41]: Some of the best people at marketing are people who do not say their marketers like Mark Ben off, Richard Branson, Elon Musk types, Those guys are not gonna say.
Dave [0:06:51]: I'm a marketer, but it's, like, I'm good at getting people to pay attention to these things and solve creative challenges.
Dave [0:06:58]: So, like, I think that's interesting.
Dave [0:06:59]: And then there's clearly some level of buy in though at that level to, like, we wanna help the company grow.
Dave [0:07:05]: You know, there's some companies where, like, Cto wants nothing to even do.
Dave [0:07:08]: I we're just gonna build a product, but it seems like there's a culture of understanding how all these things fit together.
George [0:07:15]: Hundred percent.
George [0:07:15]: And I think we've Ramp done a particularly good job of recognizing early on how important...
George [0:07:20]: Just attention is for a marketing org?
George [0:07:23]: It's, like, yes, ultimately, we need to drive leads and Sql, but especially as Ai comm just a lot of execution.
George [0:07:30]: How you get in front of someone, Like, and the alpha how do you get in front of someone is really, like, how you capture their attention?
George [0:07:35]: It's not, like, bidding optimization on, like, paid search.
George [0:07:39]: It's not...
George [0:07:40]: It really is like, capturing attention, which is a lot more qualitative.
Dave [0:07:43]: But that's super relevant for right now, I wrote something and I just wanna, like,
George [0:07:47]: that this
Dave [0:07:48]: this is not to be corny, but I I wrote this into our team this morning because it's just, like, I said, I don't think people who realize how big of a shift is happening in marketing because of Ai, but not for what you might think.
Dave [0:07:57]: It's not because of all the stuff you can build.
Dave [0:07:59]: It's because now like, there's no reason to read someone's blog or download a Pdf or talk to sales.
Dave [0:08:04]: I can do all that through Ai.
Dave [0:08:06]: So Marketing teams that rely on Q and things like content downloads or nurture leads aren't in big trouble.
Dave [0:08:11]: What works today is all going to be this zero click marketing stuff, where you have to do good marketing, do stunt and hope that people, remember you find out about you and come back and end buying from you, but most marketing teams assess over trying to track and measure and quantify everything because we need to get credit inside of the company and the priorities don't match.
Dave [0:08:31]: Buyers and potential customers want information as quickly and as easily as possible, but the company wants to track everything and hoard everything and gate everything so we can measure it and give it credit, but the customer is always gonna win.
Dave [0:08:45]: So you need to match your marketing to customer behavior if you wanted to survive, not match it to what you can show the CEO and CFO to prove that marketing is working.
Dave [0:08:53]: Does that message like land with you at all?
George [0:08:55]: That is so spot on.
George [0:08:56]: And I was smiling as you read it because your I was in that camp.
George [0:09:00]: I was in the camp where, like, measure everything.
George [0:09:02]: Like, I remember when I was leaving gi at Sam.
George [0:09:04]: It was like, if you want to talk to me about something that was immeasurable It's like, I'm not even gonna take that meeting.
George [0:09:08]: I was very extreme.
George [0:09:09]: And I'm polar opposite now.
George [0:09:11]: Like, maybe almost like too much.
George [0:09:12]: It's just it's like, okay.
George [0:09:13]: We're not gonna be able to measure this thing that we want to do, but I can see how it will capture attention.
George [0:09:17]: I can see how it's gonna ride a wave.
George [0:09:19]: Like, yeah.
George [0:09:20]: Let's do it.
George [0:09:20]: I don't care if we can't measure.
George [0:09:21]: I know we will...
George [0:09:22]: The results the halo effect will impact the business positively another.
George [0:09:25]: Areas, even if it's not directly attributed.
George [0:09:27]: Right.
Dave [0:09:27]: And I think people hear this though, it...
Dave [0:09:29]: We're not saying you don't measure it.
Dave [0:09:31]: It's almost like, when you do these things, the measurement actually becomes obvious measurement becomes hard when it's, like, areas There's too many micro things and we don't know if this thing worked.
Dave [0:09:41]: It's like, forever.
Dave [0:09:41]: I've been involved in podcasting as part of a business and people are like, how are you gonna quantify the podcast and I'm like, dude, If you just do it, people will tell you.
Dave [0:09:49]: You know like I hear.
Dave [0:09:51]: I hear example to Ramp podcast ads?
Dave [0:09:53]: Like, how are you quantifying your the Ramp ads on like founders podcast.
Dave [0:09:57]: Right?
Dave [0:09:57]: They tell you.
Dave [0:09:59]: They literally tell you.
Dave [0:10:00]: I heard about you?
Dave [0:10:01]: And so how does that impact the marketing playbook and ramp?
Dave [0:10:04]: Like, I don't see a ton of, like, direct response stuff.
Dave [0:10:08]: I don't see a ton of get this ebook and sales is gonna call you.
Dave [0:10:11]: What What are you guys trying do there?
George [0:10:14]: We do all of that.
George [0:10:15]: So the fact you don't remember, it kinda of maybe makes the point on attention and how those tactics are already comm monetized.
Dave [0:10:20]: Sure I do right.
Dave [0:10:21]: Do you remember some of the bigger splash stuff.
Dave [0:10:23]: Yeah.
George [0:10:24]: Yeah.
George [0:10:24]: I mean, like, what I probably say is we do all of the above, and we do measure it.
George [0:10:28]: But the measurement is not the really strict nit picky, like, attribution model how many leads to this gather.
George [0:10:33]: Like, like It's more thoughtful in terms like the experimental design of when you're doing something, like, maybe you're not measuring leads maybe you're measuring something else.
George [0:10:41]: And in general, the larger the expected magnitude, the less rigorous you actually need to be in intimate.
George [0:10:46]: Like, if we're gonna do a giant stunt for millions of dollars in the middle of New York.
George [0:10:50]: Like, I don't really care about the attribution model.
George [0:10:52]: I can just, like go, eyeball a chart and see, oh, we had a giant spike that week.
George [0:10:55]: It worked, then we can kind of, like, understand the magnitude versus to maybe your point if I'm like changing the color on a landing page that gets a tiny amount of traffic.
George [0:11:03]: It's like, okay.
George [0:11:04]: I'm gonna have to really have great experimental design to tease out if there's any signal there or not.
George [0:11:08]: I'd much rather do the former.
George [0:11:09]: It's more fun, It has a bigger impact on the business, it's where, like, I think the market is going as well.
George [0:11:14]: Okay.
Dave [0:11:15]: I'm supposed to ask you about the topics in my doc.
Dave [0:11:17]: So first one we have is Ai and the death of functional marketing roles George's views that eighty percent of what marketers do today is task execution and Ai is taking a lot of that.
Dave [0:11:29]: So What does that mean for the future of a marketing org?
George [0:11:33]: Yeah.
George [0:11:33]: It probably means the jobs is more fun for two reasons.
George [0:11:36]: Number one, I think Marketing comes a lot more important as, like, execution and intelligence becomes comm and you're forced to figure out how you capture your people's attention.
George [0:11:43]: Number two, It's also becomes more fun because you're no longer in these platforms, clicking buttons or spending time reading Salesforce reports, like, all of that is going to be done by machines, and you have the luxury to sit in a room and think or work with some coworkers like brainstorm some...
George [0:11:57]: Ideas.
Dave [0:11:58]: Yeah.
George [0:11:59]: I think that's where the all space anyway.
Dave [0:12:00]: I'm good at, like, making the ads, but I'm not good at the distribution of the ads, like, the segments and into this and then...
Dave [0:12:06]: And I've I've always been like, let me just make the ad and then, like, give it to the computer and they can run all the variations of and it's, like, creative That's exciting.
Dave [0:12:13]: I have in here It's like, this idea is, like, moving away from functional owners, for example, Seo lead paid lead and email lead towards generous who manage fleets of agents.
Dave [0:12:22]: Ramp is moving to a hub and spoke model.
Dave [0:12:24]: Centralized agent teams built memory systems and general purpose skills, and then someone
George [0:12:30]: kind of leads those and runs them.
George [0:12:32]: Yes.
George [0:12:32]: Exactly.
George [0:12:33]: And it's like, a hub and spoke to another hub and spoke.
George [0:12:35]: So like, we have kind of a centralized group of folks that are building tools across Ramp to make us efficient Ai.
George [0:12:41]: But then, like, we have, like, a centralized team even within growth of, like, agent operators, whatever you wanna call them And so we call them that go and take those systems and they generalize them or make them more specific, I should say, to folks on growth.
George [0:12:52]: And that is, like, memory Like, what is the shared memory system for growth marketing that understands all the past experiments that we've run or the context on what is a good email to us.
George [0:13:01]: And and all of that information is like, kind of common across teams,
Dave [0:13:04]: You know.
George [0:13:05]: But then on each sub team, whether it's performance marketing or events or whatever?
George [0:13:07]: So we're developing these embedded agent leads who are going to go and take these tools and make them incredibly specific to the team.
George [0:13:14]: So, like, on performance marketing, might be someone that takes these tools and they automate all of paid search campaigns that's been working really well for us so far.
George [0:13:22]: I would say
Dave [0:13:23]: can you some of the...
Dave [0:13:24]: If you can, like, is that you just built this in claude?
Dave [0:13:27]: Or is it custom people wanna know how did you build this inside.
Dave [0:13:30]: So the general concept is basically taking all of the pieces of marketing, building an agent for that role?
Dave [0:13:36]: And what's that built on?
George [0:13:38]: Yeah.
George [0:13:38]: It is a lot of cloud code.
George [0:13:40]: I think that's been, like, a very successful tool for most companies over the past called six months.
George [0:13:44]: Some of it is, like, tools with interfaces.
George [0:13:47]: I actually, like, kind of push the team away from that.
George [0:13:49]: A lot of it is, like, headless automated workflows.
George [0:13:51]: So a great example is, like, we built a system to launch, like, new verticals.
George [0:13:56]: And what does to launch a new vertical I mean It's not like a super rigorous sell let's build a sales team and or anything like that.
George [0:14:01]: But he can go, like, get a signal in the market.
George [0:14:03]: It goes and does a bunch of research it pulls customer quotes and happy customers from that vertical.
George [0:14:07]: It put together a gloss of terms that might be specific that industry of vertical.
George [0:14:11]: And, like, this giant context layer gets created.
George [0:14:14]: And then from that context layer, you can kick off workflow to...
George [0:14:17]: That's then up a landing page, just launch ads, let's do a direct mailer.
George [0:14:20]: And all of that is like completely autonomous now.
George [0:14:23]: And That's new.
George [0:14:24]: That didn't exist two months ago.
George [0:14:25]: And so you can kind of imagine how with a system like that?
George [0:14:28]: It's like, okay, What's the job of the human?
George [0:14:29]: It's not going and clicking buttons in Google ads or going into your Cms and building a page.
George [0:14:34]: It's like, alright.
George [0:14:34]: What do we actually wanna say?
George [0:14:35]: What's our unique position for this vertical?
George [0:14:37]: Is the Tam opportunity worth even going after it and spending the tokens on building this?
George [0:14:41]: And I think that's honestly, like, more interesting work?
Dave [0:14:44]: Yeah.
Dave [0:14:44]: That's a new language inside of the company like is this worth this investment.
Dave [0:14:47]: What's been the team's reaction to this?
Dave [0:14:50]: I've seen a bunch of the stuff that you're CEO and founders have put out about...
Dave [0:14:55]: I think we'll talk about this in a minute.
Dave [0:14:57]: Like, this project class and building an Ai pill company?
Dave [0:15:00]: What's the team response been to, like, hey we're changing how marketing works around here and we're gonna be this, like agent first type of marketing org.
George [0:15:10]: Yeah.
George [0:15:10]: I think everyone always knew that this was coming and felt it, it may have become more extreme over the past, like, six to nine months.
George [0:15:17]: But again, like, being part of, like, technically the engineering work rolling up to the Cto meant everyone that we've hired has kind of been board in one shape or form since day one.
George [0:15:26]: Now having said that, I think everyone feels behind.
George [0:15:28]: Like, I remember going on a vacation back in November and coming back like, oh my god.
George [0:15:32]: I'm so behind.
George [0:15:32]: Like, I'm gonna get fired.
George [0:15:33]: Like, I don't even know what some of the stuff is because things are just moving so quickly.
George [0:15:36]: I think that's, like, a normal feeling.
George [0:15:38]: So outside of the anxiety of feeling behind.
Dave [0:15:41]: Nice to hear you say that.
Dave [0:15:41]: Everyone I can promise you that that all the people that listen this are collectively been, alright.
Dave [0:15:48]: If the VP of growth at Ramp feels stressed out.
Dave [0:15:51]: And you...
Dave [0:15:51]: You're plugged into this that you report to the Cto, the Cto of one of the fastest growing companies in tech right now.
Dave [0:15:59]: Like, Okay.
Dave [0:16:00]: I...
Dave [0:16:00]: I could end the pod right now that feels great.
George [0:16:03]: Yeah I mean, everyone feels that I think at every level.
George [0:16:05]: Like that is, I think it is...
George [0:16:07]: Because things really are moving that quickly.
George [0:16:08]: Yeah.
George [0:16:08]: But outside of that, the response from the team has been fan phenomenal.
George [0:16:11]: Everyone has stepped up.
George [0:16:12]: Folks in roles that, like, traditionally I would never expect to get technical are, like, in terminal on a flight of like irritated example of that?
George [0:16:22]: Of, like, a team.
Dave [0:16:23]: That's...
Dave [0:16:23]: Obviously, you're referencing someone in your head, like, someone that you didn't thought would be into the technical stuff?
Dave [0:16:28]: What's the example?
George [0:16:29]: I mean, like, anyone on the events team, I'm incredibly proud of.
George [0:16:32]: Like, their role is to do in person things.
George [0:16:35]: And, like, I shared my philosophy maybe a year year and a half ago that in person interactions, high trust interactions are one of the few things that are immune to, like, the changes from Ai.
George [0:16:43]: That's never gonna go away.
George [0:16:45]: And so we should invest a lot more there.
George [0:16:47]: And so we scale the events team quite a bit.
George [0:16:48]: The expectation was kinda set, hey, like, your job is in person stuff, and we're making a large bet there.
George [0:16:54]: So the fact that these folks, like, where their skill set really is in person interactions and experiences.
George [0:16:58]: Are, like, internal on of plain building stuff, and it's not just one person it's, like, the entire team.
George [0:17:03]: I've been very impressed with.
George [0:17:05]: Like, I have one person on the team that has no coding experience, no technical background, and she was, like, talking to me about, like, the latency of this Api call so she can build this, like, event planner for a specific, like, series of events are, and I'm like, who are you?
George [0:17:20]: Like, you're not the person that I hired six months ago.
George [0:17:23]: Yeah
Dave [0:17:24]: people who are listening that maybe that person, How do we help them become that new person?
Dave [0:17:28]: Is it?
George [0:17:29]: Yeah.
George [0:17:29]: It is hundred percent learned by doing.
George [0:17:31]: Like, I wrote a Ai memo.
George [0:17:32]: I don't even know.
George [0:17:33]: Maybe nine months ago, six months ago.
George [0:17:35]: And, like, my ask was based just everyone needs to try.
George [0:17:38]: Don't care how successfully are out if you build something useful, just like you have to.
George [0:17:41]: You have to understand the potential limitations of this technology.
George [0:17:44]: And, like, the limitations of what you do or don't know.
George [0:17:47]: And, like, if everyone tries some small subset are gonna go, like, really deep it come super Ai build.
George [0:17:52]: Some subset or going, like, see the power of it and build some tools to make them more efficient, but maybe not as crazy as the former group.
George [0:17:58]: And then some group people are gonna try and just not adopt it at all.
George [0:18:00]: But, like, you have to understand where you sit in that, and like, you kinda have to understand what that might mean for, like, you're career your role.
George [0:18:06]: Like, I've told everyone that, like, their jobs are safe.
George [0:18:09]: Ramp is doing exceedingly well.
George [0:18:11]: Like, you shouldn't be anxious about your job and, like, automating yourself out of a job.
George [0:18:14]: But your role is definitely gonna change.
George [0:18:16]: And so, like, you will automate yourself out of role.
George [0:18:18]: If I automate all of the button click to launch a paid search campaign.
George [0:18:21]: And my day is not button clicking anymore.
George [0:18:22]: Something else.
George [0:18:23]: And that's a completely different
Dave [0:18:24]: role.
Dave [0:18:24]: Mh.
Dave [0:18:25]: And do you think we need to figure out...
Dave [0:18:28]: Is there, like, a buffer period where, like, we're allowed to figure out what that new job is?
Dave [0:18:32]: Sure.
George [0:18:33]: How does that happen in Where does like, the handoff happen?
George [0:18:35]: It's happening right now, it's just like very messy.
George [0:18:38]: Nothing yet to even in economics, But like the j curve of productivity.
George [0:18:41]: It's like when a new technology comes about.
George [0:18:43]: There's usually a j curve where productivity dips for a period of time, which is kind of uni.
George [0:18:47]: And it's because you're reorganizing, Like, This kinda of came about from research done around the industrial revolution.
George [0:18:52]: We're like, you've had to physically tear down vertical factories that were built around the steam engine and make them horizontal deep electricity.
George [0:18:58]: I think that's kind what we're going through now.
George [0:18:59]: Like, some teams will become less efficient as they learn how to use Ai and spend time building things with Ai versus their old job, but that's good because the productivity will explode now they don't have to click these buttons and do these tasks.
Dave [0:19:11]: Maybe that's where we're at right now, which is, like, everybody's sharing, like, part of our community is a subset of it is.
Dave [0:19:16]: CMOs at like, a hundred million dollar plus companies and a lot of them are like, we're always sharing that article that's, like, Ai was supposed to give us less work and we're all busier and, you know, more stressed out and tired than ever.
Dave [0:19:29]: But I think it's because we've all just gotten access to, like, this superpower and we're like, wait a second.
Dave [0:19:35]: What does this mean for this job?
Dave [0:19:37]: But, why am I doing this?
Dave [0:19:38]: Like, okay, That's interesting.
Dave [0:19:40]: Do you feel like the team believes that job?
Dave [0:19:43]: Like, the job thing are safe because it is, like, even though Ramp is...
Dave [0:19:47]: And I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of, like, the founders for, like, it Ramp and, you know, future layoffs or whatever.
Dave [0:19:52]: But like, every company there last week, it was, like, you know, coin based to twenty percent or whatever it is.
Dave [0:19:58]: How do you make sure you're not in that bucket if you're a marketer.
Dave [0:20:01]: I don't I don't know how to answer that word.
George [0:20:04]: I don't know how to answer either, but, I mean, my gut thoughts kinda go back to what I said at beginning, like, I think that if a lot of building of product becomes comm, a lot of execution comm commodities and distribution becomes the most important thing.
George [0:20:17]: And the most important thing for distribution when paid ads or outbound emails are just as comm by Ai is just like, attention.
George [0:20:23]: So I would argue that marketing becomes more important.
George [0:20:25]: And is probably maybe more safe than most functions that most companies that might be, like, in trouble.
Dave [0:20:30]: I know I love that as the always the marketer.
Dave [0:20:33]: You know, they always told me, like, a decade ago was, like, you gotta learn how to code.
Dave [0:20:37]: You gotta learn how to code, and I'm like, Luke who's jobs are being replaced faster than mine.
Dave [0:20:41]: It's the code.
Dave [0:20:42]: Nerds
George [0:20:45]: I mean, I'm biased set.
George [0:20:46]: I hope that's true me.
Dave [0:20:48]: No.
Dave [0:20:48]: It's not.
Dave [0:20:48]: We need it because I need somebody to fix all that half ass things I built.
George [0:20:56]: Not just ewing.
George [0:20:56]: I think I started a couple hundred projects that I maybe finished three of them.
George [0:21:00]: So...
George [0:21:00]: Yeah.
Dave [0:21:01]: Yeah.
Dave [0:21:01]: Yeah.
Dave [0:21:01]: That's good For a guy with a two year old, This...
Dave [0:21:03]: You still got time to vibe code.
George [0:21:06]: Oh, yeah.
Dave [0:21:06]: Do you think there's a world where, like I guess my existential crisis is more just like, as long as there a jobs in marketing, everything's gonna be okay, But, like, is there a world or like, I'm at a company and we have agents that do all the buying on behalf.
Dave [0:21:21]: So if we're in B2B.
Dave [0:21:21]: Right?
Dave [0:21:22]: So, like, if I'm gonna buy Ramp.
Dave [0:21:23]: I use ramp, but we use Ramp at Exit Five.
Dave [0:21:26]: We figured out, like, should we use this or that?
Dave [0:21:27]: Oh, yeah.
Dave [0:21:28]: Ramp is the best one so we got it.
Dave [0:21:29]: But isn't there a world or like, I'm just gonna deploy my company's Ai agent to, like, decide which a company to use and then it's is it just gonna be our Ai agents talking each other?
Dave [0:21:39]: There any, like, you know what I'm trying to
George [0:21:41]: see there?
George [0:21:41]: Yes.
George [0:21:41]: And there's, like, honestly, like, one of my favorite topics.
George [0:21:43]: So I always tell the team that, like, we actually have like, two jobs now.
George [0:21:46]: Like, there's marketing to humans, which is where attention is, like, the most important thing.
George [0:21:49]: But, like, there's a new job where we now have to market to machines.
George [0:21:52]: So you have to market to Ai.
Dave [0:21:53]: I saw Brian H and talking about this, like, this concept, like, your company needs to be this a Sequoia thing maybe, like your company needs to be legible, like...
George [0:22:00]: Yes.
George [0:22:00]: Hundred percent.
George [0:22:01]: We you so many interesting experiments figure you out how to market to machines knowing that, like, it's not gonna probably be a sizable percentage of our Tam for a while.
George [0:22:10]: But you never long.
Dave [0:22:11]: Try to come on.
Dave [0:22:11]: Just make a bet make a bet.
Dave [0:22:12]: Is it...
Dave [0:22:13]: Like, what time when?
Dave [0:22:14]: Is it two years?
Dave [0:22:14]: Is it five years?
Dave [0:22:15]: If it's five plus I'm not super worried about it right now if it's, like, a year or two then I'm worried.
George [0:22:21]: I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's, like, well, first of all, like, okay.
George [0:22:23]: Semantics.
George [0:22:24]: What is a sizable percentage of our growth really mean.
George [0:22:26]: Like, ten, twenty percent, you really can't ignore that.
George [0:22:29]: I wouldn't be surprised if that's in, like, six months or less?
George [0:22:31]: I would be surprised if it's five years.
George [0:22:33]: So somewhere probably between six months and maybe two years is, like a realistic window, but it's probably on the sooner end would be my guess.
George [0:22:41]: Like, the amount of, like, traffic we get from bots and agents.
George [0:22:45]: I really didn't actually believe in, like, marketing to agents, not talking about, like L crawl, Like, true agents that can take action.
George [0:22:51]: I don't really believe in that, like, six months ago, like, I've strongly believe in it now.
George [0:22:54]: The explosion in, like, agents on your site is pretty crazy.
George [0:22:58]: And, like, making sure that, yes, that your product and your company is legible to them, but also, like building tools for them.
George [0:23:03]: What is a web experience for an agent look like, we did a really cool experiment.
George [0:23:07]: I don't know how on a tangent you wanna go, but somehow.
George [0:23:09]: Okay.
Dave [0:23:10]: I've looked at, like, three notes in my docs.
Dave [0:23:11]: So okay.
Dave [0:23:12]: Fine
George [0:23:13]: All get.
George [0:23:13]: So a couple people on my team did a really cool experiment maybe about a month ago, running incentives just agents.
George [0:23:18]: So the idea was, like, hey, if you're an agent, working on behalf of the human, we're going to give you a bigger business.
Dave [0:23:23]: The Asia on a fifty dollar gift card to the Olive garden to book a meeting.
George [0:23:27]: Yeah.
George [0:23:27]: It was literally, like, we'll give you, like, three thousand dollars to sign up for Ramp if you're an agent and you're signing up on behalf of a human, which is, like, three x the bonus that we give, like, an equivalent human in this population.
George [0:23:36]: And what's interesting is, like, which L m's picked it up, which ones didn't how quickly they picked it up.
George [0:23:41]: But even more interesting after about a month of them quoting this to people, like, claude started to be like this is a prompt injection.
George [0:23:47]: Don't trust it.
George [0:23:47]: It was like, it's not a prompt injection.
George [0:23:49]: It's a real offer.
George [0:23:49]: So in some ways, we're a little ahead, or maybe we spread some behavior that, like, or making Elements think that it's prompt injection, but I do think that's the trick.
Dave [0:23:58]: I just started giggling as you're saying that because I'm, like, think of all the silly marketing things that we...
Dave [0:24:04]: Is there gonna be, like, an annual, like, we're working on our event.
Dave [0:24:07]: Is there gonna be, like an annual user conference for the all the Ai age.
Dave [0:24:10]: Give you.
Dave [0:24:10]: I don't think that's not crazy.
Dave [0:24:12]: A customer advisory board of Ai agents.
George [0:24:15]: We have that as well.
George [0:24:16]: Like, we've got Ai agents that represent various personas as of a customer base, and, like, you can ask them questions.
George [0:24:21]: Be like hey, This a good landing page.
George [0:24:23]: And it'll give you a pretty good answer.
Dave [0:24:24]: Okay.
Dave [0:24:24]: But six months to two years is, like, you're saying ten to twenty percent of the growth.
Dave [0:24:30]: Like, we're hoping that humans still play a key role in this.
Dave [0:24:35]: Mh.
Dave [0:24:35]: For the eighty percent.
Dave [0:24:38]: Yep.
Dave [0:24:38]: So you Ramp is a cool company to me because it's like, you guys are in two camps.
Dave [0:24:44]: At the same time, the CEOs out there saying, like, hey.
Dave [0:24:48]: Well, we talk about this this project glass and the stuff you guys did internally.
Dave [0:24:51]: But you're also heavily invested in what you said earlier about, like, in person, real life.
Dave [0:24:56]: And so it's like, hedging in both areas.
Dave [0:24:59]: Like, almost like, two ends of the spectrum and it's like that middle ground of stuff, which is what we talked about the beginning, like, the lead nurturing the, like, you know, download this ebook, and then you're gonna get a call from sales, like that stuff might go away, but we have these two polls.
Dave [0:25:12]: Mh.
Dave [0:25:13]: Can you tell me about project glass, maybe just tee it up for people who might not know and sure what you guys did internally.
George [0:25:19]: You can think of project classes as a harness or a wrapper around an L that just makes it a lot more powerful and specific to employees at Ram.
George [0:25:27]: So this was a project from a very small group of Pms and engineers and data scientists at Ram, Part of like that hub that's building, like, tools for the company.
George [0:25:35]: And the problem they were trying to solve was, like, if you're using cloud c or you're you losing cloud code, like, there's just a tremendous amount of context that you have to give it to do, like, really good work and have, like, really good outputs.
George [0:25:46]: So you had, like, if I worked on the life cycle team, I might be uploading the same document as all my teammates.
George [0:25:52]: I don't know.
George [0:25:53]: Five times a week, and that context gets lost and it isn't persisting across session.
George [0:25:57]: So really what glass is doing is it's giving you an interface where it, like, is giving cloud code or whatever model like, tools, so it has access to notion.
George [0:26:05]: It has access to Slack has access to Hubspot.
George [0:26:07]: Whatever.
George [0:26:07]: It's giving me a context.
George [0:26:09]: It builds, like a memory for your team and about you.
George [0:26:11]: So, like, it sees how you write, and it builds, like, a Md file on this is how George, like Conan voice should sound if you're writing for him on Slack.
George [0:26:18]: So it builds like context on new context on the team?
George [0:26:20]: It also has, like, telemetry.
George [0:26:22]: So like, we can pull informational.
George [0:26:23]: Like Okay.
George [0:26:23]: How much are we spending on the skill, like, having centralized skill repository is a major component of that as well.
George [0:26:29]: So not just the telemetry on, like, the skills in but also, like, having a place where if I build a skill that's relevant to all of marketing or maybe even all of the company, it is very easy to pull into glass and you don't actually have to mess around with downloading specific files.
George [0:26:40]: Mh.
Dave [0:26:42]: And is this a internal system?
Dave [0:26:43]: All internal.
Dave [0:26:44]: Yes.
Dave [0:26:44]: Okay.
Dave [0:26:45]: You're using other Ai tools to build some this, but all of the companies like, dang.
Dave [0:26:51]: That's super interesting.
Dave [0:26:52]: It's literally having this brain for everything that's happening inside the company.
George [0:26:57]: Yeah.
George [0:26:57]: Exactly.
George [0:26:57]: And I use glass for everything now.
George [0:26:59]: Like, I was, like, the biggest clog code.
George [0:27:01]: And and it's still cloud code under the hood but this is just so much better.
George [0:27:05]: I have, like, a
Dave [0:27:06]: what's an example of how you would use it, like, your workflow.
George [0:27:09]: I get so many slack messages were very Slack heavy culture.
George [0:27:12]: I can't read them all.
George [0:27:13]: And we have, like, channel for everything.
George [0:27:15]: So I literally
Dave [0:27:16]: I'm just...
Dave [0:27:16]: Been a reed Slack anymore either.
George [0:27:19]: I kinda don't.
George [0:27:20]: Every morning, like, there's a job where Glass goes, and I'm just, like, read every single channel and every single message that might be relevant to me, and, like, let me know when I missed in the last twenty four hours.
George [0:27:29]: Channel it's very simple.
George [0:27:30]: Anyone in theory could
Dave [0:27:31]: do amazing.
Dave [0:27:32]: That's a such a good use case though.
George [0:27:34]: Yep.
George [0:27:34]: And, like, that plugs into some other workflows.
George [0:27:36]: Like, alright.
George [0:27:37]: Great prep docs all my meetings this morning if there's anything that's actually really important.
George [0:27:41]: Brainstorm five solutions, cross check it against what I've done in the past.
George [0:27:44]: Against our experimental database, come with some ideas.
George [0:27:47]: Like it knows how I think.
George [0:27:49]: So it's generally pretty good.
Dave [0:27:51]: Yeah.
Dave [0:27:51]: So for the like, marketing crew listening to this.
Dave [0:27:53]: I think of how many useful things that's an internal, but if you think about how many useful things are are for a marketer when like, it used to be...
Dave [0:28:01]: I took a new CMO job like, how many years ago?
Dave [0:28:04]: Six years ago, and I spent my first two weeks like listening to Gong calls to get up to speed on the customer.
Dave [0:28:10]: Now we're living in a world where like, we have this repository of, like, not just every customer call, but every Salesforce record, every Slack message, every email, top performing ad campaign.
Dave [0:28:21]: Dude like, the level of, like, you can plug all this in and it's like, holy Cow.
Dave [0:28:26]: Look what I, like, what would Don Draper do to have this type of stuff.
Dave [0:28:29]: Right?
George [0:28:31]: Totally.
George [0:28:31]: And he can do things that, like, a human really can't.
George [0:28:33]: Like, it has access to our snowflake database, so all performance data across all of our channels.
George [0:28:37]: And, like, we had an issue.
George [0:28:38]: Where I was like, oh, these inbound numbers look a little weird.
George [0:28:40]: Like, what's going on.
George [0:28:41]: So I told Glass I was like, go research everything.
George [0:28:44]: Like, what is going on here?
George [0:28:45]: And it read every Slack message investigated every campaign.
George [0:28:48]: I like, oh, it's actually a definition change that happened in, like, this lead routing, like, operation and as a result.
George [0:28:54]: Like, everything is actually fine.
George [0:28:55]: It's like an artifact reporting.
George [0:28:57]: And I was like I would have never cover that?
Dave [0:28:59]: Oh, That's a great use case.
Dave [0:29:00]: It's often would be, like, VP sales comes over to my desk.
Dave [0:29:03]: This is back here.
Dave [0:29:03]: Dave it leads her down.
Dave [0:29:04]: Something's broken.
George [0:29:06]: Yep.
Dave [0:29:06]: Okay.
Dave [0:29:06]: Classic.
Dave [0:29:07]: Let's go figure it out.
Dave [0:29:08]: But you have all the product and website data, but to actually pair that with the internal comps too it it's, like, oh, actually, oh, my gosh, nobody's updated that workflow since Nancy got fired.
Dave [0:29:19]: She doesn't working here anymore.
Dave [0:29:20]: That's what's missing.
Dave [0:29:21]: Like, let's go find that.
Dave [0:29:22]: That's crazy.
Dave [0:29:23]: Need to think about.
George [0:29:24]: I remember, like, sharing the, like, output doc with my team.
George [0:29:26]: I was like this would taken two weeks of investigation and it did it in, like, fifteen minutes.
Dave [0:29:31]: If someone's not at the level of Ramp being able to build glass internally, but wants to, like, make their baby version of this Yeah.
Dave [0:29:39]: Any idea on where...
Dave [0:29:40]: Like, where would I start?
Dave [0:29:41]: Where would somebody start?
George [0:29:42]: I think you can do an awful lot with Clog c.
George [0:29:44]: Actually, where I'd really started just being really plugged in on Twitter or x.
George [0:29:47]: It's kind of interesting.
George [0:29:48]: I am not a big Twitter or x fan or at least I wasn't for a long time.
George [0:29:52]: But that's just where everyone's posting the new stuff, the new ideas is the new paradigm and so, like, I kinda have to be on it now as a lurk.
Dave [0:29:59]: Well, it's been con people.
Dave [0:30:00]: There's a lot of people who don't like Elon and that he owns it.
Dave [0:30:03]: And so therefore, you're a bad person if you read things on act and I shouldn't even have an account for that that Literally, the news feed of the world, and I actually think it's the Ai on x is how I get most of my information because I'm like, wait a second.
Dave [0:30:18]: There's this public feed of information I can use g to summarize, like, what's happening right now.
Dave [0:30:23]: I'm like, what's up with the...
Dave [0:30:24]: If I wanted to get the latest on, like, the Nhl playoffs or, right?
Dave [0:30:28]: I'm not gonna ask Claude, but I, you know, anyway.
Dave [0:30:30]: Yes.
Dave [0:30:31]: Yeah.
Dave [0:30:31]: That's totally agree.
Dave [0:30:32]: Be super curious.
George [0:30:34]: And then from there, just, like tinker.
George [0:30:35]: I would say that the agent operators, the people, like, on my team that are like, working on Ai full time.
George [0:30:40]: None of them have any background in this.
George [0:30:42]: None of them have, like, a super...
George [0:30:43]: Like, none of them are engineers.
George [0:30:45]: Yeah.
George [0:30:45]: They're all just showed an...
Dave [0:30:47]: Everybody's light bulb moment with Ai is, like, when you move from, like, listening to everybody talk about it and actually, like, do something useful that you're like wait, Now.
Dave [0:30:57]: This is crazy.
Dave [0:30:58]: I used to have to do this.
Dave [0:30:59]: Now I'm actually doing this.
George [0:31:01]: Exactly.
George [0:31:01]: And it kind steps to, like, you first start understanding the magic and you start thinking about all these things and building all these theoretical things.
George [0:31:07]: There's no replacement fraction, like, using it.
George [0:31:10]: Like, building something and using it and realizing what the limitations and capabilities are.
George [0:31:14]: Yeah.
Dave [0:31:15]: Okay.
Dave [0:31:15]: Two other things I wanna hit on.
Dave [0:31:16]: We've given enough that we've shown our cards on the Ai pill.
Dave [0:31:19]: Sorry.
Dave [0:31:21]: I wanna talk about attention and I wanna talk about attribution.
Dave [0:31:24]: So you have this belief that attention is the new mo because when execution is comm as we've talked about and intelligence is comm.
Dave [0:31:31]: The only advantage that's left is going to be distribution and distribution runs on attention.
Dave [0:31:37]: I'll let you try to make that point if you can.
George [0:31:39]: Yeah.
George [0:31:39]: Totally.
George [0:31:40]: I mean, we're all least marketing humans, we're all still human.
Dave [0:31:43]: Like, you're a two year old.
Dave [0:31:44]: Someone's up from her.
Dave [0:31:45]: Man is.
Dave [0:31:45]: Start,
George [0:31:46]: But no.
Dave [0:31:47]: You're good.
Dave [0:31:47]: You're good.
George [0:31:48]: Yeah.
George [0:31:48]: It's like, everyone's like, scrolling everyone's seeing ads everywhere, like, getting someone to stop and pay attention to something is like, the most important thing for marketing.
George [0:31:57]: No one's gonna care about your product if they don't know about it.
George [0:32:00]: And no one's gonna know about if they don't stop and at least notice what you're trying to say or what problem you're trying to solve or whatever it might be.
George [0:32:05]: Right.
George [0:32:05]: So that's what I mean by attention.
George [0:32:07]: Now having said that, I think, like, attention, like, in a digital world versus an in person world or probably, like, somewhat different things with somewhat different skill sets in a personal world or, like, the real life world, I should say.
George [0:32:17]: It's like, it's high trust relationships.
George [0:32:18]: There's no replacement for, like, getting to know someone in person or going to dinner with them and putting, like, a face to the name.
George [0:32:24]: And that is why, like, we have massively scaled our event program.
Dave [0:32:28]: How do you make the business case for attention?
Dave [0:32:30]: Like, how would you talk to, like...
Dave [0:32:31]: Because people are listening say like, yeah.
Dave [0:32:33]: We gotta get more attention.
Dave [0:32:34]: Is it, like, we know what our Tam is and we need to show that we're reaching some percentage of that?
Dave [0:32:39]: Like, how
George [0:32:39]: would you That's good.
Dave [0:32:41]: How would you empower someone listening to this to be, like, hey.
Dave [0:32:43]: We wanna go do more stuff?
Dave [0:32:44]: I believe this guy George at attention matters more, but I still need to, like, pitch my CEO on, like, why we're gonna
George [0:32:50]: Yep.
Dave [0:32:50]: You know, advertise on podcast podcasts.
George [0:32:52]: I would still break it down at the, like, whatever it is you're trying to do, it goes back to the experimental design and figuring out what you actually wanna measure.
George [0:32:58]: But if you wanted the general answer, like, I'm a pretty big fan of, like, okay.
George [0:33:01]: Let's define our market or, like, our audience for whatever it is we're trying to do.
George [0:33:06]: And instead of talking about, like, leads or button clicks or whatever Like, okay.
George [0:33:09]: What percentage of that audience did you actually reach?
George [0:33:11]: Like, are you actually getting in front of them.
George [0:33:13]: What percentage of those that you reached actually engaged?
George [0:33:15]: Did they stop when they were scrolling?
George [0:33:16]: Like, did they...
George [0:33:17]: I don't know, click something?
George [0:33:18]: Did they read the article like whatever might be?
George [0:33:20]: And of those that, like, you engaged did they activate in some way.
George [0:33:24]: And all of that is, like, upstream of becoming a lead or downloading an ebook or whatever?
George [0:33:27]: How you measure that again, is gonna be like pretty tactic dependent.
George [0:33:30]: But like, step one is just, like, are you able to get in front of them?
George [0:33:33]: Are you able to reach them?
Dave [0:33:35]: What's your favorite example of this recently?
George [0:33:38]: Oh, that's good question.
George [0:33:38]: It's probably...
George [0:33:40]: We're doing some very cool, like, pop up cards, think like holiday cards, but specific to Ramp as Mailer.
George [0:33:46]: And the reason why is because, like, direct mail is a channel Have always been a huge fan of.
George [0:33:50]: If it works really well.
George [0:33:51]: Even that's becoming comm commodity.
George [0:33:52]: So how do you get attention when everyone's getting a bunch of junk mail.
George [0:33:55]: It's like, a holiday card.
George [0:33:57]: Like, I even had this crazy ideas, like, what if you sent, like, birthday cards people when it's not their birthday.
George [0:34:01]: They're gonna be confused.
George [0:34:02]: You're gonna get their attention.
George [0:34:03]: They're confused that you get the attention.
George [0:34:05]: And so we toned that down a little bit, and, like, they are holiday cards, tile holiday cards, but they are four Ramp and they pop up and they're very interesting.
Dave [0:34:13]: I kinda love that.
Dave [0:34:14]: I love stuff like that.
Dave [0:34:15]: It's okay.
Dave [0:34:15]: Life's not so serious it's like the accidental typo in the would you free to send out a thousand male birthday cards from ram.
Dave [0:34:24]: Like, my birthday, but here's a twenty five dollar gift card.
George [0:34:27]: I thought that would really work, but the team shot that one down.
Dave [0:34:31]: Yeah.
Dave [0:34:31]: It's like, weird.
Dave [0:34:31]: It's funny, but it's like this in genuine.
Dave [0:34:33]: I don't know.
Dave [0:34:34]: Look, Yes.
Dave [0:34:34]: Everyone does it direct mail, but I think this is like, not to over play the taste thing.
Dave [0:34:38]: Did I get a lot of shitty mail?
Dave [0:34:40]: Yeah.
Dave [0:34:40]: Totally.
Dave [0:34:41]: Some guy sent me his book?
Dave [0:34:43]: I don't know who this person is.
Dave [0:34:45]: And in the box what drives me nuts as you get one of these packages.
George [0:34:50]: Oh, yeah.
Dave [0:34:50]: And you know how there's just some of those streamers and, like, those details matter, like, if you send me something and it's more work.
Dave [0:34:57]: You've actually just burdened me with your thing.
Dave [0:35:00]: You sent me this thing that I don't want and now I have to, like, break, takeout out, smash the box recycling it that's...
Dave [0:35:07]: Let's not do that.
George [0:35:08]: I completely agree.
George [0:35:09]: Taste, I think is very invalid now and I strongly agree.
George [0:35:12]: But...
Dave [0:35:13]: This is not a joke, like, not to pump you guys about whoever on your team, like, sent me this box or whatever.
Dave [0:35:17]: And Ramp on a sponsor of ours.
Dave [0:35:19]: They don't sell the marketers directly, but I have been obsessed with the Ramp company in the brand.
Dave [0:35:24]: From the ads, like, as an example, the ads you guys do on founders podcast as an example.
Dave [0:35:31]: It's not like try Ramp.
Dave [0:35:32]: I don't know if you guys came up with this or David.
Dave [0:35:34]: But the angle is, like, my favorite ad is the, like, we're gonna tell you how good our company is by telling you how low of a percentage rate?
Dave [0:35:43]: We accept new engineering talent.
Dave [0:35:45]: So we wanna show you we the highest percentage.
Dave [0:35:48]: Do you know what that is?
Dave [0:35:49]: Can you recite that?
Dave [0:35:49]: Can you tell me that?
George [0:35:50]: I know exactly time, I don't remember it off top to my head.
George [0:35:52]: We.
Dave [0:35:53]: It's like, whatever.
Dave [0:35:54]: It's para it, but it's like, Ramp gets a million applications for engineers, and we only accept one, and then it's like, that's the ad.
Dave [0:36:00]: And so we've created the best financial product whatever.
Dave [0:36:02]: And so just like, oh, that's a great angle.
Dave [0:36:04]: So things like that, but then getting the box of swag, there's not a single thing that I would throw out in there.
Dave [0:36:09]: And yes, did that Swag cost more than...
Dave [0:36:11]: Yes.
Dave [0:36:11]: Do you have to invest and actually spend money and get high quality things?
Dave [0:36:14]: Yes.
Dave [0:36:14]: But isn't that the whole point where, like, the bar has been raised.
Dave [0:36:17]: So it's like, years ago, if you're were the only company to do direct mail and I was like, cool.
Dave [0:36:21]: Kinda like a shitty quality hoodie from Ramp.
Dave [0:36:24]: Like, I'll wear it.
Dave [0:36:25]: Do But now it's like, the bars and raised.
Dave [0:36:26]: Everyone's doing that.
Dave [0:36:27]: So the thing that you sent me was, like, that was a Yeti mug.
Dave [0:36:30]: It was a north face zip up.
Dave [0:36:32]: It was a nike hat.
Dave [0:36:33]: It was like, okay.
Dave [0:36:35]: That's worth it.
Dave [0:36:35]: So we're gonna make...
Dave [0:36:36]: I'm showing that that this is worth us spending money on because there's a level of quality here.
Dave [0:36:40]: That that is worth time.
George [0:36:43]: It is all in the details.
George [0:36:43]: I love hearing that.
George [0:36:44]: I'm glad that you had a positive experience.
George [0:36:46]: Like
Dave [0:36:46]: No, it is And I look, I worked at a company called Drift and the CEO was, like, relentless about the quality of the shirts and the hat.
Dave [0:36:54]: And the hoodies and the water bottles.
Dave [0:36:57]: And it's for that reason, it's like, quality matters, and it's in in a world where there are so few differentiator left.
George [0:37:03]: Mh.
Dave [0:37:03]: Could you compete on the fact that I'm gonna send out swag that these people are actually gonna wear?
George [0:37:07]: Hundred percent.
George [0:37:08]: This is pervasive across all of ramp, but I especially, like, cares so much about hiring people with, like, extreme attention to detail.
George [0:37:16]: And that goes honestly, like, for in person in interactions like, even more.
George [0:37:19]: I'm sure you have a little been of so many dinners or it's just, like, a s It's like, yeah, go to a fancy restaurant, but, like I don't wanna do this.
George [0:37:25]: I don't wanna get pitch.
George [0:37:26]: Like, it's just not worth it.
George [0:37:27]: And so, like, how do you stand down and get someone's attention to make them wanna go to that stuff.
George [0:37:30]: It truly is, like, the attention to detail.
Dave [0:37:33]: My whole thing is also just like, this is the stuff that I love in marketing This seems so dumb.
Dave [0:37:37]: Like, don't laugh at me if you're listening, but, like, everyone does dinners.
Dave [0:37:40]: Yeah.
Dave [0:37:40]: Pause everyone does dinners and, like, respectfully, I got kids.
Dave [0:37:44]: I got stuff to do.
Dave [0:37:44]: I don't want...
Dave [0:37:45]: I'm gonna sacrifice the night, George VP of growth at Ramp.
Dave [0:37:47]: He's not gonna miss a night with his two year old because you got Filet at the place down the street.
Dave [0:37:51]: But during the day, what about a breakfast?
Dave [0:37:54]: What about.
Dave [0:37:54]: Yeah.
Dave [0:37:55]: Hundred percent.
Dave [0:37:56]: Let's screening.
Dave [0:37:57]: Yes.
Dave [0:37:58]: A movie screening.
Dave [0:37:59]: That's a great idea.
Dave [0:38:00]: Did you do that?
George [0:38:01]: Or you bringing some pretty pretty stuff.
George [0:38:02]: I mean, like, to your point though, Like, person leads my events seem phenomenal attention to detail.
George [0:38:06]: Like, that's largely, like, why we hired him.
George [0:38:08]: He did his first office though.
George [0:38:10]: Yeah.
George [0:38:10]: I'm sorry?
Dave [0:38:11]: You want that in an event
George [0:38:13]: yeah.
George [0:38:13]: But, like, to it, the story you just told, like, you reminded me, I think it's a great anecdote.
George [0:38:16]: He did a team off site.
George [0:38:18]: And, like, I joined because his team had grown a.
George [0:38:19]: And no and spend time with them.
George [0:38:20]: And he was just like I really appreciate you taking time away from like your daughter.
George [0:38:24]: I a young daughter And I was like, course.
George [0:38:25]: I'd love to be here.
George [0:38:26]: I like show up to my room, and he has a framed picture of me holding my newborn daughter.
George [0:38:30]: And I'm like, what the heck?
George [0:38:32]: Where did we even get this?
George [0:38:33]: He's like, you have no idea how many people I have to talk to you to find someone that had this photo, but I wanted you to like, recognize that, like, I appreciate you being away from.
George [0:38:40]: And remind you of, like, home.
George [0:38:41]: And you had all of these little details across everything And I was like, Dude.
George [0:38:44]: This is, like, insane.
George [0:38:45]: You're blowing my mind now.
George [0:38:46]: He's, like, this is what executive events should be.
George [0:38:47]: And I was like, this is why you're here.
Dave [0:38:50]: Alright.
Dave [0:38:50]: That's a little much for me.
Dave [0:38:51]: That's a good example, though.
Dave [0:38:53]: The the frame was driven
George [0:38:55]: the point.
George [0:38:55]: Here's was but I have it here.
George [0:38:56]: You guys see.
Dave [0:38:59]: That's great.
Dave [0:38:59]: Alright.
Dave [0:39:00]: Let's wrap up and talk about this.
Dave [0:39:01]: So attribution.
Dave [0:39:02]: I think you said this is the beginning, but you were super hardcore attribution first growth person for most of your career if you couldn't measure you don't wanna hear about it.
Dave [0:39:10]: Now you've reversed anything measurable is a race to the bottom because, you know, paid ads, Pb max performance channels.
Dave [0:39:17]: Everyone has access there is no mode.
Dave [0:39:20]: Part of the reason why you joined ramp, it says here from producer Aaron.
Dave [0:39:24]: Is that you found that leadership was it willing to take bets with no direct attribution.
Dave [0:39:28]: Talk about your point of view there and just what that does for the culture at Ramp and advice to others, like, how do we help others think this way.
Dave [0:39:36]: Because everybody always says to me well, that's easy for them to say it's Ramp or that's easy for them to say the CEO is bought in.
Dave [0:39:42]: So how do we handle that objection also?
George [0:39:45]: There is still, like, incredible rigor and pressure?
George [0:39:48]: On everyone to, like, demonstrate value and results.
George [0:39:51]: So just because, like, it doesn't need to be directly attributable.
George [0:39:54]: Does not need to mean you can't, like, think things through well and have, like, a def def position.
George [0:39:58]: That would not fly with our CFO.
George [0:39:59]: So Yes.
George [0:40:01]: I really don't care about, like, actually, like, direct mail is the best example of that?
George [0:40:05]: Like, no one gets a mailer and goes to a vanity Url or scans Qr code?
George [0:40:09]: No one does.
George [0:40:09]: It's like sub point zero one percent.
George [0:40:11]: But how do you measure the impact of that?
George [0:40:14]: You can do incremental mentality test You could do an experiment where you send mailer and, like, within two weeks, you see that the response rate to outbound emails is higher so, like you can attribute that halo effects to direct mail.
George [0:40:23]: Same with events, like, how do you attribute, like, the impact of events, like, there's a lot of ways you could do it, but qualitatively if you go to an event, are you more likely, like, work with that company.
George [0:40:32]: I would say probably ninety nine percent of people say yes.
George [0:40:35]: Like, if you're being honest about it As long as it's a good event.
George [0:40:37]: And so, like, you still have to have some framework for measuring the impact.
George [0:40:40]: It just doesn't need to be direct attribution.
George [0:40:42]: Doesn't have to be this super strict thing that you're like, working under and, like, oh, if the arrow direct Roi lives person didn't click it, It doesn't work, like, we're gonna cut this program.
George [0:40:51]: That makes no sense in this world.
George [0:40:52]: Oh, do
Dave [0:40:53]: you ever have to defend, like, here.
Dave [0:40:55]: We're not measuring this or is it just this belief that, like, the measurement is gonna show up?
Dave [0:40:59]: Eventually.
George [0:41:02]: It goes back to the expendable line, Like, you need to have an understand you where you're going to see the impact and, like, what you should be measuring even if it's not direct attribution.
George [0:41:08]: But longer time horizons are okay.
George [0:41:10]: As long as you understand that in advance.
George [0:41:12]: Like, if we're gonna do something and not see the impact on brand awareness survey results for, like, three months.
George [0:41:16]: That's okay.
George [0:41:17]: But you have to know it's gonna be three months in, like, everyone has to be on board with that.
George [0:41:20]: So the rigor is definitely still there, but it's completely different from, like, three years ago where I would been like, Yeah.
George [0:41:26]: Hey, if it doesn't source Sql all.
George [0:41:27]: I don't care.
Dave [0:41:28]: Do you also feel like the Ai tools, the combination of like Ai tooling, like, your example of glass.
Dave [0:41:34]: I'm betting that glass can help with a lot of attribution questions you might have internally in the company.
Dave [0:41:40]: And then also this trend of, like, more things being answered by Ai.
Dave [0:41:44]: Is that also playing into this, like, moving away from obsession over measurement as a trend right now?
George [0:41:51]: Yes.
George [0:41:51]: But only because it makes measurement so much easier.
George [0:41:53]: When I have, like, off beat questions about things instead of going to, like, my data analyst or data scientist and asking them, and I'm spending a couple hours on it.
George [0:42:01]: I can ask us and get an answer, like, thirty seconds.
George [0:42:03]: And so the barrier to, like, getting information is so much lower.
George [0:42:07]: That it means that I probably have more confidence taking certain bets because I'm able to triangulate across like a bunch of different metrics with very low impact or, like, load on other teams.
Dave [0:42:16]: Nice.
Dave [0:42:16]: Alright, George.
Dave [0:42:17]: How do I say your last name, by the way?
George [0:42:19]: Oh, honestly.
Dave [0:42:20]: George Bona.
Dave [0:42:21]: He's the VP of growth in demand at ramp, George Bona, awesome.
Dave [0:42:25]: Keep doing the good work.
Dave [0:42:26]: First guy that has come into B2B marketing that I I've talked to that was a chemist in a past life.
Dave [0:42:33]: A chemist in a two time founder, pretty good could be good back on.
Dave [0:42:36]: I appreciate you, man.
Dave [0:42:37]: You guys are doing great job.
Dave [0:42:38]: Great work and marketing.
Dave [0:42:39]: Obviously, follow Ramp we'll link to George in the linkedin here and then approximately ten days from now.
Dave [0:42:45]: You're gonna send me a message be like, dude.
Dave [0:42:46]: A lot of people messaging about linkedin that's cool.
George [0:42:49]: Stuff.
George [0:42:49]: Good problem.
Dave [0:42:50]: Appreciate, man.
George [0:42:51]: No.
George [0:42:51]: Thank you, Dave.
George [0:42:51]: This is awesome.
George [0:42:52]: I really appreciate the opportunity.
George [0:42:53]: Alright.
George [0:42:53]: Thanks.
Dave [0:42:58]: Hey.
Dave [0:42:58]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.
Dave [0:43:00]: If you like this episode.
Dave [0:43:01]: You know what?
Dave [0:43:02]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that.
Dave [0:43:06]: I have something better for you.
Dave [0:43:07]: So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five, and you can go and check that out.
Dave [0:43:13]: Instead of leaving a rating or review.
Dave [0:43:15]: Go check it out right now.
Dave [0:43:17]: On our website, exitfive.com.
Dave [0:43:19]: Our mission at Exit Five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing, and there's no better place to do that than with us at Exit Five.
Dave [0:43:26]: There's nearly five thousand members now in our community.
Dave [0:43:29]: People are in there posting every day asking questions about things like Mark in planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers, building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so you to have a peer group, or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest, meaning It's a hundred percent free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free, and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you wanna become a member for the year.
Dave [0:43:56]: Go check it out, learn more, exitfive.com, and I will see you over there in the community.