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Matt Abrahams: Focusing on
relevance and agency can transform
your communication and connect
your meaning to your audiences.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to
speaking with Sinéad Bovell.
Sinéad is a futurist and the founder
of WAYE, a tech education company
that prepares businesses and the next
generation of leaders for a future
shaped by advanced technologies.
She is an 11-time United Nations
speaker and serves as an expert
advisor to the UN AI Advisory Body.
Sinéad helps bridge the gap between
complex technological advancements
and everyday understanding.
Welcome, Sinéad.
Thank you so much for joining me here in
the Theorist Studios in New York City.
I'm excited for our conversation.
Sinéad Bovell: Thank you
so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Okay.
Shall we get started?
Sinéad Bovell: Yes.
Let's dive in.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Uh, you've been called the AI
educator for the non-nerds because
of your ability to take complex
information and make it accessible.
How do you do that?
Are there certain
frameworks that you rely on?
How do you take complexity and
make it accessible to people?
Sinéad Bovell: Hmm.
Yeah, and I was actually surprised by, by
that, that slogan myself when it came out.
But I'd say you have to meet people
where they are and with information
that's actually relevant to them.
So when it comes to technology, 'cause
that's something that I communicate about
a lot, uh, it can seem really overwhelming
for people because people inherently
assume if you don't have the technical
skills or the coding skills or whatever
it is of the technology you're speaking
about, you're probably disqualified from
the conversation, and that's not true.
So you have to show people perhaps an
example of something that would've seemed
quite radical historically, a technology
that they now use today fluently.
Uh, and then also how is this technology
or the thing you're communicating
culturally relevant to somebody's life?
When things are too abstract and
you don't bring it down, it's hard
for people to connect with it.
So I always try to meet
people where they are.
And then I think there's a
lot to say about the format.
So is somebody finding you on a
YouTube video or on something that's
90 seconds or something more formal to
try to fit the medium, because that's
usually where the audience, that's
how the audience expects some form of
communication, uh, or some form of style.
So I try to be cognizant of those things.
And then I'd say the final thing, if
you're not passionate about the thing
that you're delivering and you don't
genuinely think it's important for
people to know, or you're not excited
about it or concerned about it, that
also comes through in how you try to
get somebody to understand something.
So if it's not genuine and you are not
actually excited about it or don't really
feel like it's important, that also shows.
So I, the things that you see
me talk about publicly are the
things that I'm, I genuinely care
about, I'm inspired by them, or I
think that they're important too.
Matt Abrahams: And your
passion certainly comes out.
I've seen you present a number of
times, and you clearly are passionate
and knowledgeable, which are critical.
So I heard you talk about
several things there.
One, you have to meet your audience
where they are, which means you have
to understand and appreciate their
level of knowledge on the topic.
You have to try to make
it relevant to them.
They have to be able to see how it works.
You rely on comparisons
and analogies to connect.
And then you also think, and I think
this is really smart, to think about
the channel through which they're
accessing the information and try
to conform to those expectations.
So if you're, if you're meeting people
on a, a quick Reel or, or YouTube
Short, you can't go into too much
detail, so you have to prioritize.
So excellent, and that advice, I think,
holds true for anybody communicating
about anything that's complex.
Uh, you frequently note that soft
skills appreciate over time while
technical skills depreciate.
As artificial intelligence takes over
more of our lives, how can we better
lean into those soft skills, and how can
leaders and managers put an emphasis on
that for the people that work for them?
Sinéad Bovell: Yeah.
And this is a tricky one, right?
Because we've spent the last 15 years
hearing a lot about the more technical
skills and how important they are.
And it's not that they're not
important, it's just that the
half-life of the average technical
skill is now between 2.5 to 5 years.
So that just means if you are leaning into
technical skills, you're gonna have to
expect to continue to upgrade and change.
So when we think about the soft skills,
and I don't even know if they're soft
skills, because skills like self-directed
learning, adaptability, judgment, these
can, can be more challenging to learn.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
They're quite hard.
Sinéad Bovell: You have
more opportunities to do so.
You can exercise some of this just
at home or in the grocery store.
But they do appreciate over value
because these are the, the skills
that the tools that we're working
alongside can't yet cultivate.
So when it comes to leaders, first of all,
you have to guide by incentives, right?
So what type of work
are you incentivizing?
And this is something I actually
do see in organizations.
So maybe a KPI or an OKR, um, or some sort
of benchmark doesn't yet account for the
fact that you want your employees to, to
demonstrate a different type of skill.
So you suddenly tell them communication's
really important here, and there's no
opportunity for that employee to deliver
their presentation in a way that they
can express themselves in a different
format aside from just some sort of
email or some sort of attachment.
So you do wanna try to align the
incentives with that directive, um,
if you can also demonstrate it, and
then also give people examples to
show what, why that skill is relevant.
So if we're trying to get people to
build judgment skills or build critical
thinking, where does that matter in their
workflow and how they get evaluated?
And again, that comes back to, to the
incentive systems because what people
don't want to feel like they have to
do is add more on top of something that
they're not even getting evaluated on.
I think inspiring people in that way,
uh, giving people examples, those are the
areas that I think are, are important.
And then we also just have to start
talking more about the value of,
of these softer skills, uh, or the
non-technical skills and how centered
they are, uh, today and going forward.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
The, the ability to take these skills
that are non-technical and really learn
them and apply them is really important.
And again, very astute to make sure that
it's all about helping people understand
the relevance of those skills, giving them
opportunities to practice, and incentives.
It's another thing to support it,
encourage it, and I heard you also
say role model it so people see it.
And take the time to discuss it.
You know so many people, especially
in the realm of communication, just
assume that people know how to do
it, but we have to take the time
to acknowledge and reward that too.
So it's, it's building not just
the mandate, but building the
infrastructure to support it.
You have had, uh, amazing
opportunities to communicate in
lots of different situations.
You're up in front of Fortune
500 companies, the UN.
How do you instill your message
around ethical use of technology, the
importance of AI and foresight, at the
same time, avoid people getting really
nervous, afraid, and, and just hunkering
down with the way the status quo is?
How, how do you encourage people to adapt
towards the future without scaring them?
Sinéad Bovell: Hmm.
So I'd say there, the blanket
approach, because it does, I do
change depending if I'm in front of
a Fortune 500 leader, um, or someone
who's evaluated on different metrics
or has different goals and incentives.
Um, but I'd say the, the theme behind my,
I don't even have a strategy, but I think
what suits, fits well with me is if you
scare people too much, if you disempower
them, they do unsubscribe from the very
activities you need them to lean into.
So you can only take people so far with
showing the fear and the consequences,
and you have to trust that when you
are communicating something that is
uncomfortable, um, something that is
urgent, that people can follow you and
you don't need to take them off the cliff.
That they can see what the consequence
is if we continue to go down, let's
say, the status quo, um, without
taking them to a point where it
feels like there's no return.
Then you have to show how clear somebody
does have agency that is listening.
And so if I'm in a room, let's say, with
world leaders and we're talking about a
technology that seems like it's moving
really quickly and it seems so foreign and
out of our control and, and unprecedented
is a term we hear over and over.
Have we done this before?
Was there a moment in history that the
same people in this room did something
similar, as radical, as profound?
And so when you take people to
those moments, they can start
to see the path for themselves.
Uh, when it comes to a Fortune 500
company, uh, again, and I constantly
connect back to the incentives.
If you are being evaluated by, um, the
stock market, that matters to you, right?
And if it's going to show up in your
bottom line, that's something that
a, a leader, and, and of course, they
also care about fairness and ethics.
But if you say, you know, you're, you're
also perhaps missing 40% of a market
by not addressing the bias in these
algorithms, that's really significant.
So you can attach the fairness
argument in addition, though, this
is what also matters to you in
quarter one, in quarter two, uh, and
you're leaving this on the table.
So there's, I think, different approaches
depending on who's in that room.
But I'd say the, the theme
is not to disempower people,
because then you do lose them.
And that's the, the exact wrong
action that you're trying to,
to inspire people to take.
Matt Abrahams: And a quick reminder
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And now back to our conversation.
There's a lot there I want to dig into
It starts with really appreciating
that what you're talking about can be
perceived as scary and as threatening.
And once you understand that, then I think
many of the techniques you mentioned are
really important, making sure people have
a sense of agency, connecting it to things
that they might have done in the past
when they've been challenged, helping them
to see the incentives are in alignment.
All of those make a lot of sense.
You've built a massive digital platform to
educate youth on the future of technology.
What have you found to be the most
effective storytelling techniques
to reach that generation or, or
storytelling techniques in general?
Sinéad Bovell: I mean, and this would,
again, come back to what are the
things that matter for that audience?
So storytelling around education,
skills, jobs, choices that they would
be making in their day-to-day life.
I tend to have that through line between,
you know, whether it's Substack or
whether it's something that I'm doing
that's a 90-second video, again, meeting
that audience where they are, but also
showing them the path to the decisions
that they're gonna make today, connecting
the storyline to their future, right?
'Cause the, the future that we're
building today, we're actually
giving it to that generation.
So I think showing them that, that
this is why this is something that's
important to you, even though it
may feel like you're not in that
decision-making room, by the time you
get there, these are the decisions
today that you're going to inherit, and
this is why you need to pay attention,
and this is how you can make a change.
Uh, and then also making things fun
and not always overly intellectualized
just for the sake of it.
Get to the point as well.
People have things to do.
You're also competing with a lot of
other pieces of content or, or media
streams, so respecting people's time.
And I actually see it as that.
Not just, uh, to communicating quickly
because the, the medium says 90 seconds
or less, but if someone's gonna stop and
listen to you and take that time, respect
the time that they're giving you, right?
Communicate the fact clearly, say the
important thing, and strip away everything
else, uh, and, and deliver it in a way
that makes sense to the audience that
you're asking to, to lean in and listen.
Matt Abrahams: That respect piece I think
is really important, especially when
talking to younger folks who might feel
they're left out or not respected in this.
So taking the time to respect that you're
listening, demonstrating or showing them
how getting involved now will help with
their futures, and the decisions being
made now, to understand those will help
you to determine that future that you,
that you live in and hopefully co-create.
Sinéad Bovell: I think there can be
the temptation to think, "Well, I'm
speaking to a really young audience.
I have to change the tone, and
they're only gonna understand some
things." And that's actually not true.
Sometimes, you know, they also wanna be
spoken to like the rest of the adults in
the room, 'cause the message is just as
serious for them, uh, or they feel like,
you know, "This matters for me, too, so
you don't have to cut off half of the
important message because you think I'm
too young to hear it. If it's important
for my future, I qualify to listen to
it." So sometimes my message is actually
quite similar and so is the delivery.
Matt Abrahams: Amen to that.
We, we, we don't have to talk down to
people who are younger or who don't have
the technical background, et cetera.
Find ways to connect.
Find ways to make it relevant.
We'll be right back to finish our
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And now, back to our conversation.
I want to switch gears and talk a
little bit about you and your career.
Uh, you've made several career leaps.
Uh, you started in finance
and management consulting.
You did a little modeling in your career.
What advice do you have to
someone who's trying to rebrand
themselves and communicate the,
the new way they are in the world?
Sinéad Bovell: It really comes down to
the fundamentals of business, right?
The thing that makes you different, that
is actually your competitive advantage.
So sometimes we can feel like when we're
changing lanes to what would seem on the
outside towards a path that seems like
it is nothing, it doesn't connect to
the thing that you're doing, or you're
making an con- entirely right turn
when everybody else is going straight.
That actually puts you at a unique
intersection that nobody else operates on.
That is a superpower in and of itself.
Uh, so I think that is one area that
I try to tell people it doesn't matter
how many zigs and zags in your in,
in your career you wanna make.
There's a way to connect those dots
that make you unique, and that's
what also can make you stand out.
And you also learn a lot about
the world and different markets
based on the different audiences
and worlds you interact with.
It wasn't until I left business and
went into fashion that I was inspired
to talk more about business and
more about technology and more about
strategy because I realized who was
being left out of that conversation.
So sometimes it can surprise you
what you discover about yourself and
your skill set when you step into
the unexpected, and that's what I
have found consistently in my career.
And, you know, it's, the more I'm
in a position that seems like it's,
it's entirely unrelated to the one
before it, the more the previous
experience, uh, comes into play
and the more it becomes a strength.
Uh, so that's how I've connected
some of the dots in my career.
Matt Abrahams: I really like this
notion of step into the unexpected.
Look for the intersectionality and
what that does to make you unique.
How have you communicated that though?
I can understand the, the items that
you would want to communicate as
a result, but how have you thought
through how best to communicate that?
'Cause many people listening,
I think, have had some pivots,
maybe not as dramatic as yours
Sinéad Bovell: I mean, I think everybody
can relate to being passionate about
something or super curious about
something and making the decision not
to pursue it, and perhaps regretting it.
So for me, I chose to take
that risk and make the decision
to step into the unknown.
And so I think that there's a through
line that we've all, or we've all
been at a point in our life in some
way that we faced a trade-off, or we
faced a decision, uh, and it seemed
like one was a lot more foreign and
one was a lot more unknown, and we
all dealt with it in different ways.
Uh, so for me, I think I communicate,
you know, these were my curiosities,
these were my passions, and I
knew I had to follow that line.
I knew that I had to take that leap,
uh, and that was the risk that I was
comfortable and I was willing to take.
And I think also, you know, I
had equipped myself with a bit
of a foundation so I could take a
leap, uh, and so that's something.
But, you know, sometimes I'm also, these
are the decisions that I made, and as
Steve Jobs says, you know, the dots
only connect when you look back, and
that's one of those examples, I'd say.
Matt Abrahams: I like how you
immediately connected this to
something that other people are doing.
Lots of us, uh, have passions
that we, we might regret.
And, and that's a, that's a great way
to start, and it shows that you're
somebody who's passionate and willing
to, to investigate and explore those.
Sinéad Bovell: And we have
varied multied interests, right?
No one is just one thing.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
Sinéad Bovell: We, we're coming
out of this industrialized economy
where it feels like you are your job
title, but that's actually not true.
Most of us have many different
interests, uh, and, and varied
interests at that, that seem unrelated
to other people, but not to us.
We are the through line in those ideas.
Matt Abrahams: We are the through line.
I, I like that.
Before we end, I like
to ask three questions.
One I make up just for you, and the other
two I've been asking for a long time.
Are you up for that?
Sinéad Bovell: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: I am very impressed with
not only your thinking, but the way
in which you articulate your ideas.
How did you learn, and how do you continue
to learn to communicate effectively?
What do you do?
Sinéad Bovell: I am constantly doing it.
So whether that is making a social media
video, and sometimes you are actually
moving through the knots of, how do
I actually say this in 60 seconds?
And so continuing to try
to master that craft.
I'm on stages quite a bit discussing
some of these ideas, uh, communicating
them passionately with friends.
And you don't have to be a professional
communicator and get paid for it, but
if there are things that interest you,
a news story, geopolitics, sharing those
ideas with people can start to force you
to communicate them in a way that that
audience, even if it's one person in
the coffee shop, is going to understand.
I'd say that that's one thing.
Uh, the things I communicate are the
things I am genuinely very passionate
about, so I think that really helps.
Um, and I, I practice.
I think that there's, for some people,
they can grab a mic and it's very
ad hoc, and sometimes I do that.
But I also have no problem with
rehearsing something that's really
important to me and getting it down pat
in a way that I feel comfortable with.
Uh, it doesn't work for everyone, but
for me, I like to come prepared, and
that's something that I tend to do.
Matt Abrahams: So the preparation, the
repetition, the passion is what leads
you to continue to develop the skills,
and that's a good lesson for everybody.
Question number two: Who is a
communicator that you admire, and why?
Sinéad Bovell: Steve Jobs is someone
who I, I re-watch his speeches.
I re-watch his announcements.
And I'm, I'm noticing the
through line is people who, who
make very intentional pauses.
And whether that's planned or
whether that's because they
are genuinely thinking, I think
President Obama does it as well.
Uh, and so those are the types of
styles, I don't think I communicate
anything like either of those
two, but they are, they are voices
that I could listen to on repeat.
And there's a rhythm, and it feels
like there's a call to action even if
there isn't one in the actual message.
Uh, the call to action to come back and
to listen and to learn and to be inspired.
So I'd say those are two, two
voices that I could put on repeat.
Matt Abrahams: The intentionality
and the presence are what
I hear you talking about.
The ability to pause, the ability to
make it sound like there's, there's
action to be done even if there isn't.
We've, we've heard those names before for,
Sinéad Bovell: Have you?
Matt Abrahams: For very similar reasons.
Yes, absolutely.
Sinéad Bovell: And can I
ask you about the pause?
Yeah.
So what is it with the power of the pause?
Uh, uh, is, is it intentional, or does
it seem like it's natural, or should,
do you encourage people to pause more?
Matt Abrahams: What we know is
when somebody pauses it allows the
audience to reflect and catch up, so
it does a service to the audience.
It certainly can help a speaker to
collect their thoughts and move forward.
And we know from research in status
and power that those who pause
typically are perceived as having
higher status and power as well.
Sinéad Bovell: Interesting.
Matt Abrahams: So one of the
recommendations, uh, to somebody who's
wanting to bolster their standing in
a group might be to speak more slowly,
to pause a little longer, because we
typically assume somebody in a, in a
position of power and status, uh, do that.
The other thing that pausing does is it
allows you to regulate your breathing.
And a lot of the nervous tics that we
have, speaking too quickly, having our
voice change, saying lots of filler words,
is a result of breathing too quickly.
So pausing can be very important, not just
for you, but for the audience that you're
speaking to, but it has to be genuine.
You can tell somebody who's purposely
putting in pauses when they speak.
So, uh, again, through practice,
repetition, getting feedback,
as you mentioned, uh, you
can find what works for you.
Without pausing, I'd like to
ask you, uh, a final question.
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?
Sinéad Bovell: The topic has to,
has to matter to you or be something
that you feel called to speak about.
I'd say the second, what is the take
home message that you want people to be
leaving with if there was just one idea?
Uh, and sometimes I even say that in my,
my talks, if there was one thing that
you listened, and I announce the thing.
And I would say the third
in effective communication,
for me, a sense of calmness.
Uh, people can really feel if you feel
uncertain or if you feel somewhat anxious.
So I try to be as calm as possible,
uh, and that's what has worked for me.
So I'd say being passionate about the
topics, the take home message, uh, and
delivering it with a sense of being
comfortable with the things you're saying.
Not necessarily comfortable in front
of people or on live television, but
with the things that you're delivering.
I think that that helps.
Matt Abrahams: Those listening in know
I love, uh, acronyms and alliteration.
And so if you allow me, I'm gonna
take the third thing you said
and, and reframe it a little bit.
But it's about topic, something
you're passionate about.
It's being clear on the takeaway, and
it's finding the tone that fits for you.
So it's the three T's.
So thank you for that.
And thank you for this
entire conversation.
You've opened my mind, and hopefully
the mind of those listening in, to
the power of possibility, but the
responsibility we have to think
about how we bring others along and
how we can have a sense of agency.
And your focus on really helping
make things be relevant to people
and inspiring while being honest
and direct are really important.
So thank you so much for your time.
Sinéad Bovell: Thank you so much.
Thanks for the thoughtful questions.
This has been a pleasure.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
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