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The Spend Table is where cost and spend intelligence gets served up fresh—and no topic is too spicy to tackle. Join three finance and procurement leaders for respectful debate (not head-nodding) on what really matters when managing software spend. All powered by real data insights.
Russell [0:00:00]: If I'm a CFO, and I'm reviewing business cases or deliverables, I think we are now at the at the place where we can expect that AI is pervasive in basically anyone's analysis.
Russell [0:00:12]: Too accessible too easy and too good at what it does to not assume that people are using AI to arrive at their assumptions.
Russell [0:00:20]: And if I'm a CFO, I'm now asking people in these different business cases obviously, the source, you know, like, you guys both mentioned.
Russell [0:00:28]: But I'm asking what's your intuition?
Russell [0:00:30]: What's versus what's the AI saying.
Russell [0:00:32]: And I wanna see and understand where you as my trusted, recommend her, you know, colleague in this organization are using your your brain power to interpret what an AI synthesis would be in layering in your unique and softer Nuance synthesis on top.
Russell [0:00:52]: So I think that's gonna be increasingly included and expected as AI swap reaches, you know, its Apex, the value of human intuition, incorporated within a recommendation.
Russell [0:01:06]: Is gonna grow in importance, and it's going to be isolated separately from the AI synthesis in those analyses.
Michael [0:01:20]: Well, I've got, like, the little kitchen over there too, You know, See my little kitchen, and little desk over there.
Michael [0:01:26]: And then the room is actually back down there.
Michael [0:01:30]: So what's your...
Michael [0:01:31]: Just you're paying
Russell [0:01:32]: to this and I...
Michael [0:01:33]: Less than you?
Michael [0:01:34]: Because I know what you're paying because your admin told me, but you booked late.
Michael [0:01:37]: So, you know, fired.
Michael [0:01:40]: And mine comes with free breakfast just to be very clear is yours?
Russell [0:01:44]: No.
Russell [0:01:44]: But I been Austin.
Russell [0:01:45]: That means I'm ordering breakfast tacos.
Russell [0:01:46]: I don't care what the the free breakfast offering.
Justin [0:01:49]: But she'll visit the water eggs, those horrible eggs that are free.
Russell [0:01:54]: You know, the buffalo
Michael [0:01:54]: buffets is okay.
Michael [0:01:55]: They've I usually go with the oatmeal.
Michael [0:01:57]: But yeah, There's some...
Michael [0:01:57]: There's some scrambled eggs and potatoes and stuff down there.
Justin [0:02:01]: So...
Justin [0:02:01]: And like A hampton into me.
Justin [0:02:02]: Sure.
Russell [0:02:03]: We aren't a connecting hook hotel.
Russell [0:02:05]: It's which is strange to me I understand how we're sharing a lobby for two different hotels.
Michael [0:02:10]: Wow, they're both under the Marriott brand, but location good.
Michael [0:02:13]: It was by far the cheapest one downtown area.
Michael [0:02:16]: So
Russell [0:02:18]: gotta get on the residence entering because with these...
Russell [0:02:20]: With your couch and kitchen nets set up.
Russell [0:02:22]: I'm sitting here with taking events.
Michael [0:02:24]: To be fair, I booked where your assistant told me you were staying, and then she followed up and said, oh, they're they're sold out, but the courtyard right next door, same hotel type of thing I said great.
Michael [0:02:33]: So I followed your lead whether you knew I was following your lead or not.
Michael [0:02:37]: Speaking of caught saving money though.
Michael [0:02:39]: And before we dive in, what time you headed to the airport today?
Russell [0:02:43]: Five Pm, four or five p.
Russell [0:02:45]: Holy cr.
Russell [0:02:46]: Okay.
Russell [0:02:47]: Well, good
Michael [0:02:48]: luck.
Michael [0:02:48]: Alrighty.
Michael [0:02:49]: Welcome gentlemen.
Michael [0:02:51]: We have Russell Lester.
Michael [0:02:53]: I'm gonna put the spotlight on you for a little bit.
Michael [0:02:56]: Our CFO, you know, I'm sure at some point in in your career, you've been called the CFO no, true or false.
Michael [0:03:03]: Guilty is charged?
Michael [0:03:04]: Absolutely.
Michael [0:03:05]: Okay.
Michael [0:03:07]: Cool.
Michael [0:03:07]: I'm not sure if you embrace that or not?
Michael [0:03:09]: I I guess my question for you is do you feel like in the past?
Michael [0:03:14]: I'm not talking about your current role because we're gonna dive in your current role, But do you feel like in the past, you've had to adopt that mentality or that title to some degree just out of out of your volume or request or because of the stupidity of some request or or am My...
Michael [0:03:29]: I I've never been a CFO, so I I I can only assume.
Justin [0:03:33]: It is interesting, and I think it differs based on how you ascend to the role of of CFO, I came up through the ranks of analytics and Fp a.
Justin [0:03:42]: So we were naturally building partnerships.
Justin [0:03:45]: And seats at the table with our functional counterparts.
Justin [0:03:48]: And so it was an interesting transition because I would go from being the analyst or leader that was advocating for that group to help them make the case for an investment to the CFO to then I was the one that was having to make the judgment call.
Justin [0:04:07]: And that that transition you have to be willing to push back more without feeling like you're breaking those bonds or breaking that that partnership.
Justin [0:04:16]: You need to create that sense of respect that you're not just going to rubber stamp every single thing that comes across your desk.
Justin [0:04:23]: It's not an instantaneous and instinct evolution, maybe for some CFO, they naturally or crotch, that say no to everything.
Justin [0:04:32]: I thought that was
Michael [0:04:33]: part of the job description, but maybe not.
Justin [0:04:36]: It's funny growing up in leadership.
Justin [0:04:37]: Always found the people that thought that being the powerful nay say or and Contra on the call was the...
Justin [0:04:43]: Was the power move.
Justin [0:04:44]: That never impressed me because I thought it was the craziest and the easiest move in the room because all you have to do is just disagree with what everybody saying.
Justin [0:04:52]: And I saw a lot of CFO do that.
Justin [0:04:55]: And they...
Justin [0:04:56]: It was rarely well informed.
Justin [0:04:58]: They were just, like, oh, I am a...
Justin [0:05:01]: I am a robot, and my role is to say no and be grumpy about everything.
Justin [0:05:04]: So I've tried to finesse it probably imperfect, and I have indexed on one side or the other at any given time probably, sometimes I'm too nice as a CFO, other times, maybe out of nowhere people feel like I'm being grumpy because, I'm coming in hot off of some investor or board call.
Justin [0:05:22]: So I I think it really varies.
Michael [0:05:25]: And that's where I wanna dig into into today because ideally as a CFO, you know when to push back and when you don't need to push back.
Michael [0:05:32]: So you don't need to either adopt the either or, hey.
Michael [0:05:35]: I'm having a good day and and, you know, feeling charitable or whatever the case maybe be I'm gonna approve and and I I'm having a bad day just gonna push back, but I don't know exact stats, but I've heard numbers that for every dollar of budget that's approved, you have multiples of that requested.
Michael [0:05:52]: So to some degree where you have to push back.
Michael [0:05:56]: Where I wanna tie this episode today is is Justin and I at a a a dinner last night with a bunch of...
Michael [0:06:02]: Heads of procurement.
Michael [0:06:03]: And one thing that we're talking about and and it's landing really well in the market right now is part of the reason t is really helping us be so successful as procurement leaders is because it helps us know to focus.
Michael [0:06:15]: We we cannot anymore cover literally everything.
Michael [0:06:19]: Everything should flow through the process, but we can't spend our time on every deal.
Michael [0:06:24]: And so some people default to, okay.
Michael [0:06:27]: If it's over a certain dollar amount.
Michael [0:06:29]: That's where I'm gonna spend my time.
Michael [0:06:30]: And I can speak from experience knowing that sometimes I can spend a lot of time on a big dollar amount and not move the needle at all or very little.
Michael [0:06:39]: And sometimes I can spend a little bit of time or some amount of time on a smaller dollar amount and move the needle quite a bit, both from, like, a savings perspective from a sourcing perspective, etcetera.
Michael [0:06:49]: So knowing where to focus has been extremely valuable for a procurement person like me.
Michael [0:06:55]: And if we take a look at that same...
Michael [0:06:57]: The opposite side of that same coin from a CFO perspective, you know, I'm I'm I'm guessing that because you work for t that a lot of times, a request comes through, it gives you data to where, you know, when to...
Michael [0:07:11]: You know when to push back and when to not to.
Michael [0:07:14]: So justin, I wanna go to you just for a second because you had a post.
Michael [0:07:17]: I can't remember when it was, a couple weeks ago, week ago a month ago it all blends together, but you had a big dollar amount come through, and I'm not gonna say you rubber stamped it, but you approved it pretty quickly.
Michael [0:07:29]: May maybe maybe share that example with us.
Russell [0:07:31]: Yeah.
Russell [0:07:31]: So, I mean, one of the things that we...
Russell [0:07:33]: Used and internally, obviously, we are...
Russell [0:07:36]: We drink our own champagne, and as part of that, when when renewal is coming up, and I get a reminder alert.
Russell [0:07:43]: As part of that renewal, I get a digest that is kind of a snapshot of topics data relative to a purchase that's coming through.
Russell [0:07:52]: So we had a, you know, a fifty thousand dollar renewal that was coming up.
Russell [0:07:56]: And the data said that this with pricing was really good.
Russell [0:08:00]: The terms that we had were were really strong.
Russell [0:08:02]: And while it's relatively expensive for us, fifty thousand dollars, there's very little to actually do with this, and the recommendation is just auto renew, which was a kind of a breath of fresh air because, usually when I get those reminders, it's really, like, time to gear up for battle and prepare for the time and energy to actually work through that renewal.
Russell [0:08:24]: But in this case, it was a relief because that was time that I could spend elsewhere, and the data was telling me that it wasn't gonna be a fruitful effort to spend the next several weeks being my head against the wall.
Michael [0:08:38]: Yeah.
Michael [0:08:38]: And, I mean, Russell, I don't know how that resonates with you, but I I feel like that's almost become a requirement in this day and age where clearly, suppliers can pop up, AI tools can pop up left and right.
Michael [0:08:50]: You've got legacy tools.
Michael [0:08:51]: You've got new tools coming in, knowing where to push back to make sure you're getting a better deals stronger ROI.
Michael [0:08:57]: But also knowing, hey, this is...
Michael [0:09:00]: This has strong ROI.
Michael [0:09:01]: This is a good deal letting it flow through and impact your business positively as soon as possible can become a competitive advantage.
Michael [0:09:09]: I would say to some degree.
Michael [0:09:10]: Right?
Michael [0:09:10]: Russell, how does that resonate with you?
Justin [0:09:12]: It resonates.
Justin [0:09:12]: And I think what comes to mind is I'm not just a hammer and everything as a nail.
Justin [0:09:17]: Thus I have to treat everything the exact same way.
Justin [0:09:21]: Also think about ironically as you were talking my marriage, and you're probably thinking what?
Justin [0:09:27]: I am thinking.
Justin [0:09:27]: What?
Justin [0:09:28]: Yep.
Justin [0:09:29]: I've been married twenty six years, and I've learned that not every interaction in conversation needs the same response.
Justin [0:09:37]: I don't always need to be in fix it mode.
Justin [0:09:41]: Oftentimes and we have a great relationship.
Justin [0:09:44]: She will say, and I'm just sharing this with you because I need to, you know, explain where I'm coming from how I'm feeling.
Justin [0:09:51]: And actually, I don't need to do anything.
Justin [0:09:54]: I just need to be a good listener, and hear the process that she went through in in going through something.
Justin [0:10:00]: And oftentimes this happens in business.
Justin [0:10:02]: I've I've messed up at times when I have read a signal to say, I need to lean in and put my foot down and really rattle the cages and make sure my team is doing what they need to do and go beat up a supplier.
Justin [0:10:15]: And if I come in hot without contacts like that every single time, it oftentimes is not pointed in the right direction.
Justin [0:10:24]: So to your point, knowing when you need to lean in and light the fires and escalate is just as powerful as knowing where...
Justin [0:10:35]: No.
Justin [0:10:35]: Everything is fine, where green across the board The benchmark came back good.
Justin [0:10:40]: We're negotiating according to the playbook.
Justin [0:10:42]: The supplier is playing ball.
Justin [0:10:45]: The team feels good about our compliance standards.
Justin [0:10:47]: We are good to go, Russell.
Justin [0:10:49]: All we need is your approval.
Justin [0:10:51]: Or Russell.
Justin [0:10:53]: We're very stuck.
Justin [0:10:54]: Here's all the areas of friction.
Justin [0:10:55]: We need you to lean in.
Justin [0:10:56]: And so it's hard to do that quickly and efficiently if every single time you go through that cycle.
Justin [0:11:02]: You start at square one thinking.
Justin [0:11:04]: Am I just here to listen and nod?
Justin [0:11:06]: Or am I here to actually engage and and be the hammer with the nail.
Justin [0:11:09]: Right?
Russell [0:11:10]: One dynamic I think is is happening a lot more as you said that, Russell is...
Russell [0:11:14]: I feel like in in years previous, it was incumbent on a suppliers, account manager, sales rep to build the ROI case and that to serve as the primary data points that would go through to the CFO to cover a business case.
Russell [0:11:30]: Right?
Russell [0:11:31]: And the buyer is using the suppliers ROI case to then justify a purchase.
Russell [0:11:35]: And now what I'm seeing a lot more is that because this type of data is available at around benchmarking and insights around, you know, how this fall is relative to a comparison set, buyers or the expectation of buyers is now to build business cases not just with supplier driven ROI cases, but also buyer driven data points to say is this a good deal for us or not a good deal.
Russell [0:12:01]: And that addition is giving CFO, a lot more conviction and confidence that we are spending our money effectively and confidence that the business team is being good stewards of the business in, know, fighting for the right price points and justifying an expense to suggest, you know, hey, we are getting a good deal here relative to what we could be for this for the set of products.
Michael [0:12:26]: Justin, I wanna dig into what you just talked about specifically, you know, the the data and what you're seeing if...
Michael [0:12:33]: Because because I'm guessing not everyone is leveraging the the same data, maybe tee that up a little bit about...
Michael [0:12:40]: I don't know if we call it a maturity model or or something like that, but what are those different levels of of, of data maturity?
Michael [0:12:47]: And and what are you seeing right now?
Michael [0:12:48]: What are seen in terms of, like, how people are operating?
Russell [0:12:52]: Yeah.
Russell [0:12:52]: I, we, we have the the benefit of getting to work with CFO at very different sized companies from small S and smb, you know, AI startups that are moving at the pace of, you know, the the speed of light.
Russell [0:13:02]: To, kinda like the midsize, Pb backed companies or, you know, growth equity backed companies that are focused on efficient growth all the way up to enterprises that are, you know, public companies that have, you know, public markets to to answer to when it comes to their costs whether they're growing or or shrinking.
Russell [0:13:20]: So the needs around data and the expectations are quite different among that that spectrum.
Russell [0:13:25]: You know, when I think about our small companies as that group may only have a small handful of suppliers that really move the needle.
Russell [0:13:34]: And from a time standpoint, there just really isn't the same time in the day to run a holistic sourcing event.
Russell [0:13:41]: It's really about what do I need right now?
Russell [0:13:44]: And how can I have some amounts of confidence that I'm getting getting a decent deal?
Russell [0:13:48]: Right?
Russell [0:13:48]: So for them, it's all about the time element and maybe a single data point one kind of benchmark to say, okay.
Russell [0:13:54]: We're not getting screwed.
Russell [0:13:55]: Let's pass this thing through and go back to focusing on growth and the initiatives that are gonna propel our business forward.
Russell [0:14:01]: If you, you know, compare that to the enterprise where you have dedicated technology sourcing teams and procurement functions whose entire, you know, remit is focused on making sure we're getting the best prices that we're working with the best partners for these different use cases.
Russell [0:14:17]: They're going to have a much deeper intent around the type of data and the amount of data that they need to feel confident around those purchases, But even still in that group, even at the enterprise, they think about their spend as part of the the massive strategic spend that even if you have a data point that says you're getting a good deal, we know that at the end of the day, if it's above a certain threshold, you're gonna spend time on it because, you know, the dollars mean enough to have an impact and to spend the time and effort to do so.
Russell [0:14:50]: But where the real value comes is kinda that everything else, the mid to long tail where you know you don't have time, and data can help you really point in the right direction to shield what you...
Russell [0:15:00]: Would you share in the beginning where the juice is really worth the squeeze and starting to uncover savings opportunities that may not have surfaced otherwise because it was below a certain threshold that didn't meet the criteria of, like, focus and attention for these bigger technology sourcing teams.
Michael [0:15:15]: And I don't know if there's a contrast point of view for you, Russell, but I would love to hear based on everything Justin has said, when a request comes across your plate, what are you looking for?
Michael [0:15:26]: And how is that evolved over the past couple months couple, couple years?
Michael [0:15:32]: What...
Michael [0:15:32]: You know, what what did you used to do And what are you doing today?
Michael [0:15:35]: And maybe there's no change.
Michael [0:15:36]: I don't know.
Michael [0:15:36]: Maybe it's the same data as is it's easier to get.
Justin [0:15:39]: No.
Justin [0:15:39]: Oh, I had so many things I could say about this particular topic?
Justin [0:15:43]: I mean, what...
Justin [0:15:43]: First of all, what does a CFO look for?
Justin [0:15:46]: We're looking for alignment to the company plan and how this particular investment will advance that.
Justin [0:15:53]: Whether it's revenue growth, efficiency, risk mitigation, customer sat.
Justin [0:15:59]: So you think about what are we solving for as a business this year, the critical few priorities Sometimes you'll see them show up on a plan on a page.
Justin [0:16:07]: Right?
Justin [0:16:07]: And so does this investment support that?
Justin [0:16:10]: And what's the connection?
Justin [0:16:12]: What's the through line that helps me know that this is worth spending money on because not everything is worth equal focus in in equal effort.
Justin [0:16:20]: So that...
Justin [0:16:21]: That's one thing but we also want to know what alternatives were considered?
Justin [0:16:25]: What are the measures of success?
Justin [0:16:28]: How will we know if when we implement this?
Justin [0:16:30]: It will work?
Justin [0:16:31]: Are we getting a good price, obviously.
Justin [0:16:34]: Is on every CFO mind.
Justin [0:16:36]: And how do we know that?
Justin [0:16:38]: And what...
Justin [0:16:40]: Where do we stand right now?
Justin [0:16:41]: What are the additional levers we can pull?
Justin [0:16:43]: Are we getting the best payment terms we could get?
Justin [0:16:45]: Do we want this to be multi year or not?
Justin [0:16:48]: And if so why, you know, all of these new AI tools standing up.
Justin [0:16:52]: I've spoken in the past about fears around Frank stack where we have this sp happening, and you're going to get all these tools.
Justin [0:17:01]: And so should we sign single year?
Justin [0:17:03]: Until we see how all these work together and avoid putting ourselves on the hook for multiple years, but even pausing and stepping back from all that.
Justin [0:17:12]: Just data in general.
Justin [0:17:13]: The data is now more accessible, but there could be more false positives and bad signals.
Justin [0:17:20]: Here's my fear.
Justin [0:17:22]: We were talking to a friend that that does legal work and saying, man, this AI stuff, is this going to...
Justin [0:17:30]: Is this really hurting your business?
Justin [0:17:31]: And he was saying it's interesting because actually, because now everybody...
Justin [0:17:36]: Everybody now has a legal adviser or a financial adviser an analytics adviser, they can run things through Ai, and they come back knowledgeable and with a ton more questions.
Justin [0:17:48]: Well, this happens to CFO as well?
Justin [0:17:50]: Because people can go out and pull up who knows what data from who knows what source, who knows what freshness or rec and they could give fault signals that, this meets our standards.
Justin [0:18:03]: We're getting a good price.
Justin [0:18:04]: This is the best alternative.
Justin [0:18:06]: But if you ask AI questions in a certain way.
Justin [0:18:10]: It will give you back exactly what you asked.
Justin [0:18:12]: Like, I'm am trying to get approval from the CFO on making this purchase, provide me back evidence that I'm getting a good price.
Justin [0:18:21]: I've negotiated well, blah blah blah.
Justin [0:18:23]: Right?
Justin [0:18:23]: And AI will be like, okay.
Justin [0:18:25]: I'll give you that.
Justin [0:18:26]: But you asked the question incorrectly.
Justin [0:18:29]: And so this is the problem is that for all the data we have flowing, we have to know if we're reading
Michael [0:18:36]: as CFO, are we reading the right data?
Michael [0:18:38]: Where did this come from?
Michael [0:18:40]: What is the source of truth?
Michael [0:18:41]: Is this reliable?
Michael [0:18:43]: Is this a false signal that I'm getting?
Michael [0:18:45]: So I think it's more complicated than ever?
Michael [0:18:47]: How do you protect against that?
Michael [0:18:49]: Because I I can see if I put myself in your shoes as some sort of justification come across that's very convincing.
Michael [0:18:56]: But likely generated by chat Gp versus others.
Michael [0:19:00]: And to be fair, I've heard of other procurement leaders using chat Or claude or some other AI device as a benchmarking service and that scares me because where's is that data coming from?
Michael [0:19:15]: How do you protect against that?
Justin [0:19:17]: I think we have to ask more questions and the questions that we ask may have to change.
Justin [0:19:21]: So if they're getting the benchmark information, and negotiation strategies, for example, from t.
Justin [0:19:28]: Will we know that that's first party data, from live discussions, live negotiations.
Justin [0:19:34]: That's not some random generic AI slot casting a wide net out into chat Gp and praying something comes back legitimate that's third, four fifth hand five years old, not even relevant.
Justin [0:19:47]: So it's know your source.
Justin [0:19:49]: Know your source.
Justin [0:19:50]: So...
Justin [0:19:50]: Because it could it might not just be, like, we're talking kind of about software purchases perhaps.
Justin [0:19:55]: But it could be anything.
Justin [0:19:55]: Right It could be a marketing campaign or it could be, you know, what whatever it is, what is the source of their information and how did they validate the accuracy of it.
Justin [0:20:06]: CFO have always needed to do that though.
Justin [0:20:08]: And when the salespeople would come forward with funnel conversion estimates.
Justin [0:20:12]: We need to know what's your source.
Justin [0:20:14]: So that...
Justin [0:20:15]: That hasn't shifted for CFO, but we need to not rest on our laurel and be lazy just because now we have all this agent data flowing.
Russell [0:20:25]: At the authority and credibility play a much more important role in this age of Ai, Russell exactly to that point because anyone can put together a really strongly worded and convincing argument with the power of Chat me, And I think it's tricky because I could see in from your shoes as CFO, you wanna trust your people to come up with convincing business cases and re well reason arguments, but knowing the tools that everyone has at their disposal now, there's a question that it inevitably comes to light, which is tell me your source, where did this come from, how does you come up with this?
Russell [0:21:03]: And, like, asking those questions, kind of cast a little bit of doubt on the credibility of whatever analysis or work has come together, which is which is not fun and and not empowering as a a stakeholder, but it's probably increasingly necessary to isolate whatever noise might be coming through the abundance of data and information that that can be accessible from the real signal and and reliable sources that matter for each of these situations.
Justin [0:21:32]: Yeah.
Justin [0:21:32]: Definitely.
Justin [0:21:32]: We...
Justin [0:21:33]: I don't want good business leaders to short circuit, intuition, experience, and context in the process.
Justin [0:21:40]: Because in the past, if it was more manual, their own internal filter around those things that I just mentioned would be higher.
Justin [0:21:49]: But now that it's easier and more accessible to spin this stuff up and crank it out in a beautiful presentation that's utterly convincing with charts and quotes and then when you ask, did you make any of this up and it's like, well, yeah.
Justin [0:22:02]: I did because I was trying to build a a good business case for you.
Justin [0:22:05]: So I think it it is all about the questions we asked.
Justin [0:22:09]: And and really having our antenna Not in a suspicious way, like, people are trying to bamboo us, but more in a in a way that understands this is now where we're at, where we need to authenticate our source to your point.
Justin [0:22:24]: They're used to need the good housekeeping seal of approval or what's the periodic that you would research to know if you're buying the best appliance?
Justin [0:22:32]: What's the trade publication?
Justin [0:22:33]: Consumer reports.
Russell [0:22:35]: Okay.
Russell [0:22:35]: I was would go with the Angie list.
Russell [0:22:36]: But, yeah.
Russell [0:22:37]: Same thing.
Justin [0:22:37]: Yeah.
Justin [0:22:37]: They were year.
Justin [0:22:38]: Mine's months and more dated consumer report.
Justin [0:22:41]: But, like, that's what we're talking about is how do we know single source of truth, trusted reliable.
Justin [0:22:47]: If only everything we got had some seal on it.
Justin [0:22:51]: It was, like, this is trustworthy.
Justin [0:22:52]: And we don't have that, So we don't know...
Justin [0:22:55]: Or, like, a confidence if every data point we got had a confidence rating of, like, made up versus, like, completely reliable.
Justin [0:23:02]: It won't.
Justin [0:23:03]: So we just have to be in tune with, I noticed a lot of M dashes that may imply...
Russell [0:23:09]: Last thing I'll say this is.
Russell [0:23:10]: I think even three months ago, I would probably give extra kudos to some AI generated analysis on a specific sticky problem.
Russell [0:23:19]: Right?
Russell [0:23:20]: And that was...
Russell [0:23:21]: Oh, great.
Russell [0:23:21]: We're using the power of AI to diagnose and look at this problem.
Russell [0:23:24]: And I can feel myself pulling back from that that sentiment today where I'm actually...
Russell [0:23:31]: I'm like...
Russell [0:23:32]: I'm...
Russell [0:23:33]: Because I know the great parts in the faults of Ai.
Russell [0:23:36]: I'm increasingly more and more supportive of the human intuition piece connected to Ai.
Russell [0:23:43]: And and I think that there's definitely a a attention that exists between using the power of AI to synthesized large amounts of data and come up with decisive claims, while also the human intuition side of that that is layering on, you know, business context and and kind of the the softer parts of what analysis has what good analysts have have been able to do over time.
Russell [0:24:06]: But anyways, now we're now we're getting far away from our our point.
Russell [0:24:09]: But just to summarize credibility, source authority, I think are all elements of of data that are gonna have increasing relevance.
Russell [0:24:17]: And and CFO was gonna be asking for the source to validate assumptions or or outcomes that are being determined.
Michael [0:24:25]: Yeah.
Michael [0:24:25]: I actually wanted to double click on what you just said from a summary?
Michael [0:24:28]: Because what I heard Justin say, or Justin, What Eric heard Russell say is that he's looking for, number one, how does this tie to very clear business objectives that we're trying to do.
Michael [0:24:38]: Number two, how do we know that this is a good deal relative benchmarking, that sort of a thing.
Michael [0:24:44]: Number three, how have we optimize for contract term length, which, you know, I I I think it's easy to...
Michael [0:24:52]: Rotate one way or another.
Michael [0:24:54]: Number four, how do we gauge this tool versus something else in our...
Michael [0:24:59]: In our tech stack already.
Michael [0:25:01]: And then number five is what's the source of the data for all of those certain things.
Michael [0:25:10]: Did I did I cap...
Michael [0:25:11]: I mean did I did I summarize that okay, Russell?
Michael [0:25:13]: Or is is is...
Michael [0:25:14]: Do I over simplify that?
Michael [0:25:16]: You made me sound so smart and knowledgeable well done That's that's because his his AI assistant it's running running side of
Russell [0:25:24]: this and just summarize that that best conversation.
Michael [0:25:27]: Real time real time.
Michael [0:25:28]: That's right.
Michael [0:25:29]: I wish I had that going, Justin was telling me about an Austin Tool.
Michael [0:25:32]: He was using last night, and I thought that was great.
Michael [0:25:35]: So I think that's very powerful information because I do feel like in this world that we operate in the way things used to be from a procurement angle of focusing on on biggest dollar things, like, is not sustainable.
Michael [0:25:48]: And also from a finance angle, you know, once again, I think speed matters sometimes, obviously, protecting against risk matters, but but no we went to optimize for each of those things in this scenario.
Michael [0:25:59]: Once again, can be, I think, a pretty good competitive data Justin, I I wanna click on one more thing.
Michael [0:26:07]: We had an awesome conversation yesterday with with with some procurement leaders.
Michael [0:26:10]: And one thing that they were concerned about is the evolution, the rec see, Of the data, how we can stay on top of that because even benchmarking from potentially a year ago might become stale really quickly, You know, there was this big talk about this massive migration from, especially when it comes to Saas, historical, very much seat base to now usage based, consumption based type of a thing, how do you address those concerns?
Russell [0:26:41]: Well, I think the first piece is awareness, knowing that there's a change coming is as helpful as having a bunch of benchmark data around that change when the when that change does come.
Russell [0:26:53]: So for example, we can often detect when there's a a pending pricing and packaging change or a new commercial model that's being rolled out by different suppliers.
Russell [0:27:03]: And we have the the technology, the capabilities to identify those changes in real time, and then broadcast them out to our network of customers.
Russell [0:27:12]: And that allows them to be thinking proactively about these changes and not clot flat footage at renewal when supplier x comes up with the thirty seven and a five percent price increase due to, you know, d duplication of one sku and move everyone over to another you being aware and and having those things on your radar can make all the difference in the world for how you approach a sourcing events.
Russell [0:27:34]: So that's the one piece in terms of proactive awareness.
Russell [0:27:37]: And then in terms of the actual data benchmarking itself, that's where the the engine and the machine becomes so critical.
Russell [0:27:43]: One thing that I'm really proud about of what we've built at t is, the machine to be able to capture these signals in real time and start to expand coverage on new pricing models, new packages.
Russell [0:27:58]: In really rapid succession.
Russell [0:28:00]: Based on the way that we've instrument our data collection efforts, our extraction, and I learned a new phrase last night human on the loop instead of human in the loop, which means a human that's reviewing the loop and is on top of it to be able to interject in the moment versus a human in the loop which is a stage gate that can slow down the whole system.
Russell [0:28:21]: So those...
Russell [0:28:22]: Thanks to my friends at Meta.
Russell [0:28:23]: That's a new phrase that we're gonna be taking on.
Russell [0:28:25]: But, yeah, I think building that human on the loop mechanism allows us to to rapidly grow and collect those those data points so that as those changes materialize, we're able to be, you know, first on the on the scene with what is possible, what's not possible in these these new circumstances.
Russell [0:28:43]: But it's hard.
Russell [0:28:45]: Like, there's a lot of change happening at every supplier in the market right now is as they rapidly try to evolve into AI first.
Russell [0:28:52]: With new models that are tied to outcomes or consumption or credits.
Russell [0:28:56]: And, you know, usually, when there's something new that inevitably means they know that they haven't figured everything out, and there's a lot of flexibility that can exist So, you know, what, we always coach and and advise our our procurement customers is is that, like, even in, hey, less data rich environment, you can be fairly confident that when something new is coming out, there's a lot of flexibility in place as they look to understand and optimize pricing, packaging growth within those new models.
Michael [0:29:26]: Yeah.
Michael [0:29:26]: I think that's a various astute takeaway there that the flexibility exists in the beginning and probably becomes more rigid over time.
Michael [0:29:32]: I don't know if that's universally true, but certainly some a a trend
Russell [0:29:36]: we're seeing.
Russell [0:29:36]: Yeah.
Russell [0:29:36]: Especially in these competitive dynamics where people are fighting tooth and nail to maintain market share to just to land grab from their competitors, we know that commercial models and pricing is a tactic that to be used to get a deal over the line and, you, expand adoption on a, us a new initiative.
Russell [0:29:55]: So there...
Russell [0:29:56]: There's ways to deploy those tactics to drive the outcomes.
Michael [0:29:59]: Okay.
Michael [0:29:59]: Let's go around the horn as we kinda wrap this up.
Michael [0:30:03]: One actionable takeaway that, you know, you feel like should be prioritized, You know, come on, you know, come Friday as you're planning for next week.
Michael [0:30:11]: You wanna institute some changes.
Michael [0:30:12]: What's one thing you're rolling out Monday.
Michael [0:30:15]: Russell will start with you.
Justin [0:30:17]: Yeah.
Justin [0:30:17]: I mean, I'll start maybe with a small little story if you'll permit.
Justin [0:30:22]: I had an opportunity to meet and hear speak Davos Sweeney last night.
Justin [0:30:28]: Do you know who he is?
Russell [0:30:30]: No.
Michael [0:30:31]: I've definitely heard the name.
Justin [0:30:32]: The head coach of Clemson for...
Justin [0:30:34]: I don't know, like, over twenty years, a very successful head coach of Clemson, the still current head coach of Clemson.
Justin [0:30:41]: And I got to hear his story of how he came to be in the role that he's in, but also a lot of interesting facts around just the role of the coach, and there was a c voting thing where we were supposed to vote what leads to success for football programs these days, is it their nil budget name image license budget.
Justin [0:31:03]: Is it having a strong defense?
Justin [0:31:05]: Of course, a lot of the Georgia Bulldog fans were like, yeah.
Justin [0:31:07]: Of course, that's it.
Justin [0:31:08]: Is it recruiting the best quarterback talent from the high schools, or is it the importance of a coach?
Justin [0:31:16]: And there was a lot of great discussion.
Justin [0:31:18]: And of course, there was a lot of opinions about any...
Justin [0:31:20]: You could make an argument that it's any of those things.
Justin [0:31:22]: Right?
Justin [0:31:23]: And, of course, the conversation last night was about the importance of a really strong coach.
Justin [0:31:28]: And what do coaches have, years of experience in the trenches work where they've done it, they understand it, and they've built up that trust with the players that when they grab the player by the face mask, and they tell them listen to me.
Justin [0:31:42]: You're doing this, do this differently.
Justin [0:31:44]: They hear it differently than if just they googled it or heard someone on Espn say it or a friend told them because they trust the coach because the coach is in their position for a reason.
Justin [0:31:56]: And so with...
Justin [0:31:57]: We've got all this data flying at us faster than ever.
Justin [0:32:00]: We don't know who to trust, what's the source of truth.
Justin [0:32:04]: We've got to stay close to those that are experts at the swim lanes that they've grown up and grown accustomed to.
Justin [0:32:11]: So If we're talking about buying things.
Justin [0:32:13]: We need to trust our procurement people that are skilled at doing this.
Justin [0:32:18]: And we need to trust our negotiators that are hand to hand and current with what is happening?
Justin [0:32:24]: What's the latest and greatest trend with all of the suppliers.
Justin [0:32:27]: Short circuit that because now you suddenly have AI tools, and you can go ask chat Gp or claude some string of questions and get back a response that makes you feel confident.
Justin [0:32:38]: That would be like Davos Sweeney players ignoring what he says, just because now they have Ai.
Justin [0:32:44]: We agree that would be ridiculous.
Justin [0:32:46]: It is no less ridiculous in the world of buying things.
Michael [0:32:50]: Yeah.
Michael [0:32:50]: I like that you use the word trust because one thing I'm taking away, and I'm already kinda thinking about do I modify the workflow or or build some sort of quick agent or something to help...
Michael [0:33:03]: To help ensure that when a request and Request I would working on a request the stakeholder submits comes to you either to you, Justin as as a budgetary approval or to you Russell as the CFO that it captures that checklist that we talk about, but also make sure that it challenges the sources of it to make to ensure that I'm not violating that trust because the moment that that trust goes away the moment that it's like, well, you leveraged AI or chat and you're the credible, the credibility of the sources questioned that obviously kills that trust.
Michael [0:33:38]: And then it's like, okay.
Michael [0:33:40]: Everything looks good, but is it really good.
Michael [0:33:42]: So take it away that that, you know, that source has to be there as well as as well as, like, hey, here, the four things that the CFO or the budget owner is looking for.
Michael [0:33:51]: Russell over you or Justin over to you.
Russell [0:33:53]: If I'm a CFO, and I'm reviewing business cases or deliverables, I think we are now at the at the place where we can expect that AI is pervasive in basically anyone's analysis.
Russell [0:34:06]: Too accessible too easy and too good at what it does to not assume that people are using AI to arrive at their assumptions.
Russell [0:34:14]: And if I'm a CFO, I'm now asking people in these different business cases, Obviously, the source, you know, like you guys both mentioned.
Russell [0:34:21]: But I'm asking what's your intuition?
Russell [0:34:24]: What's versus what's the AI saying, And I wanna see and understand where you as my trusted recommend, you know, colleague in this organization.
Russell [0:34:35]: Are using your your brain power to interpret what an AI synthesis would be in layering in your unique and softer nuance synthesis on top.
Russell [0:34:46]: So I think that's gonna be increasingly included and expected as AI swap reaches, you know, its Apex.
Russell [0:34:54]: The value of human intuition intuition incorporated within a recommendation is gonna grow in importance, and it's going to be isolated separately from the AI synthesis in those analyses.
Michael [0:35:07]: Nice.
Michael [0:35:07]: Alright.
Michael [0:35:08]: Let's put a quick bow on this.
Michael [0:35:09]: If you are in procurement like me, leveraging a strong dataset set is going to be a competitive advantage in the fact that it'll help me know where to focus and where I don't need to spend a lot of focus regardless of of dollar amount because I'm factoring in things like Benchmark, suppliers C said, stakeholder seats that I meant sourcing data, etcetera.
Michael [0:35:33]: And if I'm in finance or budgetary or CFO, I also need to make sure I'm harnessing leveraging that data.
Michael [0:35:39]: So I know when to push back and when I can accelerate an approval quickly approve something and and get it into the hands of of stakeholders quarters who clearly need the product.