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In this week's episode, we discuss the current state of Hollywood and its biggest night: the Oscars. We dive into the movies that are being celebrated, discussing whether they truly capture our attention or if the magic of award shows is fading. Are we still as invested in the red carpet glam and the glitzy speeches, or has the allure of Hollywood worn off? From the changing dynamics of what gets nominated to the growing disconnect between Hollywood and its audience, we break down the Oscars and review the films that are shaping the industry today.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:01.58)
Welcome to the Shrink Down and you may notice that if you're watching our video that we are all together and used to be sunny, wasn't quite sunny today. Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte, North Carolina. We are on our annual girl trip and we picked Charlotte this year. We thought we'd start off with talking about our favorite locations from our trips. Yeah, because we're all together. That's right. Who wants to go first?
Wilhelmina, do you have it? I'll go first. It was a toss up for me between Austin and Savannah. I think I'm going to go with Savannah though, which was last year. Yeah. I just, was so beautiful. Like the old school Southern, it just felt like something out of a movie and you could just walk around and everything felt.
different, especially different than the Midwest. Oh yeah, the trees. Yes, the trees are so pretty. I love And like we had good meals there. We walked around. We saw cool things. Yeah, I feel like that is a highlight there. Yeah, I would agree. What about you, Terri? Mine would be Key West, which was, I was going to say Savannah because I liked the vibe. So I think if I...
Didn't she, since you chose Savannah, would say Key West, which was 2019. okay. 2019. I believe so. has a list. 2019. We stayed at a resort that well, Amina had stayed at before with her husband and kids and it was on the beach and it just was a really good fun space to be in. It's like we plenty of space in the rooms we were in. Yeah. And I think it was nice to just relax and swim by the pool and go to the beach and then go do.
West nightlife stuff. Yeah, we did that champagne sunset cruise. That was my favorite part of that trip. That was a good time. Lots of drinks. was adults only. And we had decided that we were going to all dress in white. We thought, my gosh, this is going to be so cute. And then we showed up not really thinking it through. we kept getting questions of whether it was a Bachelorette party. And after a while we were like, mm-hmm, yep, sure it is. Yes, it is. Even though we'd all been here.
Vanessa (02:27.534)
for several years before that. So that was, yeah. I think when you show up wearing all white on a sunset champagne cruise, most people are going to make an assumption you're there for a bachelor party. It's funny we didn't think about that beforehand. Never crossed our minds. We all looked really cute though. Cute little white dresses and be coordinated. Can we go back to Savannah for a second? What was your favorite part about Savannah? So this was not your favorite.
No. But this was my favorite part, which was the Sorrel Weed House, which was the name of it. Yeah. Which was a haunted tour that we did the last night. Did not love And I had basically been like, if we're going to go here, this house has been featured on like those shows that go in and say like, are there really Ghost hunters. Yeah. And it's been on multiple of those type of shows to be like, is legit. This one's haunted.
And so I was like, you guys were going on this tour. You were troopers. Well, I didn't make it through. I left like towards the end. I got creeped out. don't like to watch scary movies. I don't like anything scary. I literally got so creeped out by what was happening in there. And so Lauren and I left. We not go to the maid's quarters. We made it to the majority of it. So I would say if you are a scaredy pants like me or you just
any kind of any of that stuff gives you the heebie-jeebies, I would say don't do it. If you love that kind of stuff, then I would say totally do it because that house was creepy and haunted and I want nothing to do with it. was for sure haunted. And I did get a photo that Terry and I that night were sitting next to each other before bed. And I was like, Terry, look at this. And we like, I did like a, what was that? The photo burst? Yes. And in one,
there, we see something. was, it was a legit tour. It was a, everything seemed very legitimate. And I do think it was haunted. And typically I am a bit of a scaredy cat and I was feeling okay. I was finding a fuber in it. was being kind of goofy. I will say the guide, really legitimate tour, lots of history. The house was gorgeous. but you did choose the
Vanessa (04:48.75)
dark, night time version of it as opposed to going at noon. So would go during the daytime. Okay. wanted to ask about that. So my favorite part about that trip was the bar scene there. I think they had a really fun bar scene. It was easy to get to like one place after the other. That was the place that had the slide that we all went down. So I would say that that that town definitely has a bar scene. And very much walkable. Yes, easily. And so is Key West.
Same with Key West. Same with, we haven't touched on this, Charleston. But Key West was. Walkable. Yeah. Very walkable. Yeah. Yeah, that was the slide from the one story to another. went down a whole story on the slide. In Savannah. Yeah. Yeah. The electric moon. Was that it? yes. was the fun. That was impressive. Couldn't have told Every once in a while, surprised even myself. Couldn't have told you. How about you, Lauren?
So I was going between Savannah and Charleston, which obviously have incredibly similar vibes. Now Charleston was our first trip away from the Midwest, away from visiting each other. And so that might just hold a special place for that. But I think since we've been on multiple trips, I've learned that something that we all love to do together is explore.
town that we're in. And both Charleston and Savannah were so walkable and you could explore and feel like you could figure things out as you went. And then you could go back to something. We went on a great tour. It wasn't a trolley. was a- And it was of the more historic homes district? In Charleston, yeah. That was excellent. Was it a trolley? was like a It have Yeah, we have pictures and there's- It's a trolley. taking pictures on the little Okay.
Yeah, that was excellent. doing that trip again because I was pregnant. So I think we might do a repeat at some point. So, To my surprise, we were not doing it again this trip. Wilhelmina, tell everybody where you thought we were going. Well, I was telling everyone Charlotte, which is where we are. But in my mind, I was thinking Charleston because for years we've talked about going back. Right. And so we took a long time to settle on Charlotte and we'd gone
Vanessa (07:04.834)
back and forth through a lot of places. So in my mind, I was like, we should just go back. We've always talked about going back to Charleston and we decided on Charlotte. So I kept telling people, we've been here. We just love it. And we got here and like, where did we stay last time? Cause this looks very different. And I realized it was not the same town. Charlotte and feels very different from Charleston. we Sure does.
Yes, sure does. But Savannah and Charleston, I think have a very similar vibe and very much for a girls trip are well, girls, family, adults. It's just they're both really, really cool, historic southern cities. So I think that's probably I would say between those two. And so I'll go with Charleston just to say something different, but definitely the historic tour was a highlight there. What about you, Vanessa?
My favorite, think, well, I really loved Austin. That was a good trip. But I'm going to say Nashville because I've actually gone back a second time. So I really liked our trip to Nashville. We stayed in, what was that neighborhood we stayed? 12 South. 12 South. That's right. Really cute. Very cute. Lots of shops. Boutiques. Very walkable. But then we were able to go to Broadway where all the bars are. So I think that was a fun town because you could do, you didn't have to stay in the parties.
Yeah. Town Broadway strip, but you could go if you wanted to. And we did. And I think we had a really good time. Like all the bars, like just streets of bars. but I loved where we stayed. I love the house that we stayed in. It was just so fun for like shopping and eating. then Husk was there. So I'll say, I think one of my favorite parts of Nashville was Husk, which they also have a location in Savannah. And we went and did both.
And I think we all unanimously agreed that the food at Husk in Nashville was the best. Amazing. Great restaurant. But the vibe, the kind of decor, I think was nicer in Savannah, I would say. It was just fine. The decor in Nashville was fine. It was like stunning in Savannah. we had our own little room. So if you like aesthetics, I would say that the Savannah wins. But if you're a foodie, I would say Nashville. So Husk. do remember the food being really good.
Vanessa (09:19.34)
And that was a recommendation from my sister, Beth. So if she's listening, loved Husk and went in two different tones. job. Good job. Two different tones. So what do we think of Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where we're at now. We've been here a few days. We all leave tomorrow. I will go first. Try to make this brief.
I also in my, knew we were coming to Charlotte, but in my mind, it was a version of Charleston. It was a more Southern, Southern state than it is. It is aesthetically not what I was anticipating or picturing the layout. What we have learned is everything is very spread out. It seems vertically and everything is a 20 to 30 minute drive away. It's not very walkable and there's not really
pockets of scenes, like a shopping scene, a bar scene. It's really come to this location and there's a few stores. Come here and there's maybe four bars or restaurants within any type of walking distance. And my husband comes here, Fair Mountain Will, for work. And he said to me today, it's sort of like Atlanta, the way it's set up. it's not what I expected. I think it's fine. I probably wouldn't choose to return.
But that's how you know, I guess. Vanessa said the same thing yesterday. This reminds me of Atlanta. And now, since you said that, I can't get it out of my head. You're absolutely right. That there's some like, you have to travel wherever you want to go. And it's a distance. It is so spread out. We went to a spa yesterday. And it took us 28 minutes at least to get there. And we were still in Charlotte. And 28 minutes by car. was.
Bizarre. And there no traffic. On a highway. 30 minutes on It's really spread out. Well, I will say the positive things. Yes. We were able to order cookies last night. They arrived at one o'clock in the morning. That was a good part. And I think the best part is that I think this trip has showed us that we could literally go anywhere and have a good time because we're just such good friends and it's always good to like see each other. So we literally can go anywhere.
Vanessa (11:35.982)
And let's give a shout out to our favorite restaurant so far, which unfortunately you missed, Terry, which was Wednesday night. Yes. Mico. Mico. Argentinian? Yes, it was Argentinian. Yes. Excellent. If you're in Charlotte. It was my favorite dinner so far. Yes. Well, what we've thought is crazy is that it feels like it goes down here. Like we keep, it doesn't feel very populated. And we were out for dinner last night and then we went out afterwards. And at some point I'm like, is there any place to go dancing? And I asked a woman, it was 1130 at night? Correct.
on a Friday and she was like, Ooh, 1130. And I was like, huh? In a major city. In a major city. She's like, I don't know. And we were just confused by that. So we thought, okay, we're calling it a night, go home. So they don't have dancing, but they do. They do have cookies. Pulling back to the cookies. We're like, how odd. So different kind of nightlife, I guess. So shout Maybe that's just where we're at. We're going to do a little shout out to Insomnia Cookies. Thank you. They were delicious. They were delicious.
Delivered warm. Delivered warm at one in the morning. Not quickly, they did arrive. They arrived. We really thought our delivery person had stopped at a park and just was eating our cookies. The delivery driver on the app was sitting at a nearby park for about 20 minutes. I'm like, he's sitting at a park eating our cookies. I don't think they're coming. And then they came. So they did. You never know. You gotta hold out hope. Any other faves?
Fave places we went to. I feel like we covered our top faves. I'd say it was like Austin, Charleston, Savannah, Nashville, and Key West. We did a cruise a few years ago. yeah. And I had done a cruise with my mom and sister when I was in high school. And I remember coming away being like, no, I think I'm a cruise person. And we did the cruise a couple of years ago. It was fine.
It was nice. was warm weather. went to But I think we enjoyed our excursion days where we walked around Key West. Yes. And then we did a beach day at the Bahamas. did cement for me. I'm not a cruise person still. That's okay. it would be my top choice. Yeah. So that's not a recommendation. That's a non-recommendation. I think a cruise would be good for families. Like I keep thinking like multiple generations. You've got grandparents, you've got parents and kids, and everyone can do something and still be together.
Vanessa (13:59.598)
That's, think, when a cruise would be awesome because there's so much to do and everyone can kind of do their own thing and come together. But for us, we were sort of like, we kind of have our rhythm. Yeah. We like to find a location. We to explore. to explore. We like to do a little shopping. We like to get some restaurants. And it was just very different. I will also say, like, I've only done two cruises, but the cruise line, cruise ship, I feel like makes a big difference. So we chose an adult.
only or I would say it's not adult. was heavy adults and we knew that going in, but it was, I don't know that I loved that about it because I think it swung really hard towards like elderly. actually had a couple of… For sure. Remember the cruise ship had to turn around and the helicopter had to come get someone. Somebody had to be rescued. Yes. And there was a couple of ambulances picking people up at the port. So,
It was definitely an interesting vibe. But again, I think we had a good time because we know that we travel well together and we're good wherever we go. Sort of moral of the story. Yeah. We can go wherever we want. So we've had lots of good conversations so far on this trip. Some of them we could share, some of them we would not share. And one of the things we've been talking about is the upcoming award show. And Wilhelmina is our resident movie buff. So tell us more about...
the movies that are out there. Well, if I can interject, the reason this in this conversation started is because I always look to Wilhelmina if I'm looking for a specific type of movie to watch or just a recommendation. She's always the person that I'm texting because it's something that really is a hobby is not the right word. It's part of your life. Yeah, it's part of your life. And so I was asking you last night to predict the Oscars, which will have aired by the time we put this episode out.
but I always like to hear from her because then that helps if I'm going to, my husband and I are gonna watch one of the movies on demand or once they're streaming, I know I'm not making it to the theater at this point. So I always look for your recommendations. And so that was kind of how we started the conversation. And then I was struck by the fact that I had not seen any of the Oscar nominated movies except for Inside Out 2. That's literally- You haven't seen Wicked.
Vanessa (16:20.984)
You haven't seen, I haven't seen wicked. I haven't seen any of them. And so that was what kind of prompted our conversation. And how have you been doing? You have seen them all. Well, all but one. So there's a foreign film called I'm Still Here. We just, couldn't find it. Like we couldn't get it out to the theater and it wasn't even like widely distributed and it wasn't streaming. so how does something like that get nominated? know. I mean, it's supposed, I mean, the reviews are phenomenal.
but I just, couldn't find it. What keeps you engaged to watch them and finding the time? I think two, which I think that was probably a whole different conversation. I watched three in the last like two days before we left. Cause I was like, I got to get them in and including the Brutalist, which is three and a half hours. The Complete Unknown, which is two and a half hours and Nickel Boys, which is two and a half hours. I did that while I was getting ready for the strip just to get them in.
Okay, so who this will come out after the Oscars air tomorrow night. What do you think is going to do take best picture? So I think you would ask me and I think I would say the brutalist, but then I just saw today the SAG awards and then Conclave won. So the SAG awards are good predictors of the Oscars. So I do think it's a Conclave or
brutalist. I think that's what it's down to. Okay. So if we had time next weekend with our husbands to watch an Oscar nominated movie, what would you suggest? I'm going to suggest either Enora. okay. Or Conclave. Okay. And are those, do you know if they're both available? Not that we can't Google. Enora, I mean, they're both available. Like streaming. rent or yes. Okay. Yes. They're available to rent or own.
Street meatwise. And the conclave is maybe somewhat timely because the Pope's not doing very good. It's very good. I thought it was going to be sort of just a movie about the Church picking their Pope, but it was much more dynamic, much more there was a mystery and it was very good. Yeah. And Enora is a movie unlike anything I've seen. It is, I mean, there's a lot of
Vanessa (18:40.426)
it is about a stripper. So there's a lot of nudity and like sexuality. So just be prepared for that. It's very good. Okay. Very good. Okay. So let me ask you a question in that this, I don't know if you'll have an opinion on this because this is something that you're so passionate about. but do you think there's been a shift in the amount of people watching Oscar nominated like, or, or like caring about the show or do you think there's been a shift in that?
Yes. I mean, there has been, I think. Okay. Why? I think that we've had a couple factors. think one, they used to have like five movies nominated. right. And then they expanded it, which they thought was going to be good because then they could diversify. Yeah. And they could have kind of maybe a blockbuster in there and not just like- Like a Wicked? Yes. Okay. Yes. I think it watered down the... I think it's too many movies. Yeah. It's a lot of movies to get in. Like for...
I try to watch all of them for the awards show. It's a lot. Yeah. And especially if you're like waiting, they don't often announce them until like a month or a month before the Oscars. Well, and this year was delayed because of the fires. So I think the theory of expanding it to 10 was great. Yeah. 10? There's 10? There could be up to 10. So they're flexible, but a lot of years it's been 10. This year it's 10. That's It's a lot. mean, is a lot.
COVID? deletes it. Absolutely. Anyways, continue. I think COVID changed how we watch movies. Yeah. So I think people were, you had to go to the theater or you'd wait for streaming, but like streaming became so big. Movies went directly to streaming during COVID and then that sort of changed the game. I think people stopped going to the theaters as much. I mean, I know I always went to the theater. I mean, from kid on.
Theater, theater, theater. And then COVID, now I am sort of like, nah, I might just wait for the theater, for it to stream. And that's, I used to be like, I need to it opening night. And now I'm like, yeah, I'll just wait a couple of weeks. It'll be on streaming. Okay, so now let me ask another question. Are you guys watching the Oscars? Do you care? I will watch the pre stuff, the red carpet maybe, and maybe some highlights, but I'll probably, I'm just trying to think of what we got to, I think it's, it won't be the center of my evening.
Vanessa (21:08.588)
I have to think about what we've got like sports wise and other stuff tomorrow when I get back in town. But if I'm home and I can put it out in the background, I will. And then I'll probably wait for the highlights, you know, as the week goes on. But I want to, I, there is a part of me that still wants to see what people are wearing and how they look and who shows up, who doesn't dates, et cetera. Just the scene is still interesting to me. Not like it used to be, but.
There's very few live events like that anymore that everybody can kind of get around. It's like the Super Bowl. I don't watch it. I haven't watched it in years. I used to watch it. I feel like now you don't have to watch it because of social media. So like if you see clips, you read articles, like you don't necessarily like to like if you're interested in the fashion, like you don't necessarily need to watch it anymore. You know, you can hop on someone's, you know, who does social media feed and like see all the outfits. So I feel like that's.
Like you're not forced to watch it if you're not super interested in like the movies anymore, you know, that sort of thing. Similar to the Super Bowl where now I don't care about the Super Bowl at all, but I love the commercials. Now I don't need to watch the Super Bowl for the commercials because they air them ahead of time and they are the best ones afterwards. So I didn't miss anything. I still usually do watch it, but I wouldn't have to to watch the commercials. See, I feel like I can't watch shows like the Oscars anymore.
This could be a product of me getting older, but I also wonder if the tone in Hollywood has changed. I don't know. And maybe you can, I don't know if you can recall this or not. We probably could ask somebody older that's watched it for longer than we have, but like the self-importance of the people at the Oscars can be tough. Any award show can be a little tough to like when they are keeping it to like the product that they're winning for and
But when they go off on tangents about things that they are like, they're preaching to us. I have a hard time spending my time listening to that. So that's when social media highlights become very helpful the next day, because I don't want to spend my time having somebody tell me. And I'm going to word this a little more politely than my husband does. But when those award shows are on and my husband wanders by or sees him in the room, he's like, they are just patting each other on the back. Yes. This is just one big fill in the blank fest. Yes.
Vanessa (23:28.61)
He's like, he's like, it's, it's gross. That's what it is. Yeah. I feel like you feel disillusioned, like you're congratulat- it's art. It's wonderful. It is not this massive, significant contribution to society that some other professions are contributing that are not valued in that way. So publicly. I mean, I guess I, because this like literally I always say the Oscars are my Superbowl. like, so one, I of course, we'll be watching.
This is the first time in years that we won't be having an Oscar party, but we used to have, I mean, an annual Oscar party. Yeah. I've to it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think you guys have all been here because I did it in Chicago. I think it was the first one. Yes. That was the first one. apartment. With your Ryan Gosling leggings. I don't think I had those yet. I don't think I had those yet, but I do break them out every year. I do, and I will be wearing them tomorrow. I know. So one, I think,
the political self-importance, all of that, that's been the same. I think it just looks different. Yeah, there's always been the person that's gonna do this or do that or like- Tell us what we need to Sean Penn used to be huge. He'd always make a political. Susan Sarandon always used to make a political. like- That's been going on. That's been going on forever. I think like for, the reason I watch the movies is because it makes the night more interesting.
Oh, you see, I saw a dream Brody in the brutalist. So I'm sitting there. I'm invested. Oh God, I did love Timothy Shalime. Oh, but I did love very during Brody and I care. If you don't watch it, who cares? It's very different. wouldn't care about that. I don't care about the movies I haven't seen. That makes sense. But I've seen all of them. Yeah. So I think it's a cycle. So it, the Oscars would not be as interesting to me if I didn't watch them.
I also wonder if for the casual viewer, so this doesn't include you, but I also wonder for the casual viewer if like, yes, the self-important statements, but are we also sort of like just disillusioned with Hollywood and like their behaviors and like all the scandals that go on? And so you just don't want to see them separating themselves from that and going and looking all pretty and getting awards. I don't know. It's just a theory. And I struggle.
Vanessa (25:53.134)
especially nowadays with, I mean, I've probably always struggled with this, but especially this year and what we've seen, I, to see all of these women up there being glorified and congratulated for looking like skeletons. Ooh. The skeleton parade. So you're even talking like pre-show too, like being glorified in that way. Like look at this stunning thing. I'm like, that's...
Are you thinking of the Wicked actresses? I am. That's the darkest. thinking. There's been a lot of buzz about them. Yeah, for sure. They've been the social media buzz. mean, from, you look at Wicked and you look at those women on Wicked during the movie. Like when it was filmed. And you look at them now, they're like half their size and they were was the one movie that I have watched. I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, it is. It was actually very good and I liked it.
But yes, there's been a lot of buzz about them, kind of their behavior, things that they've been doing that are kind of, I guess odd would be a good way to describe it. And then also like how they look. They're shrinking. They're shrinking before our eyes. And they're not the only ones. not just them. No, they're not. They're just a good example. Demi Moore. Demi Moore, Zoe Saldana, she's always been, but like, I mean, seeing them at the Golden Globes. Women who've always was like, what is going on? Yes, they are like disappearing.
I saw an article that said that there is clearly, is in currently a shift between what Hollywood was saying for, I don't know how many years do you guys think this like the Kirby Kardashians, right? Back to the lollipop head, which I was or the lollipop body, or I don't know how you would even describe it, but I was like, well, I think it's things like we've talked about, like Ozempic and all these kinds of new ways that you can get thinner. And I don't know if these people are doing that or not, but
it seems to be like a shift now from, from what we, you know, we're, we're not telling me from that. And now it seems like we're glorifying that again, because so many of these actresses and, you know, famous Hollywood people are kind of sporting that, that look now again. And they're going to be the way I imagine tomorrow night walking the red carpet being interviewed by present by the, you know, whatever media people saying, you look so beautiful in your dress.
Vanessa (28:12.206)
Yes, look stunning. Nicole Kidman, another one. yeah. Like, and yeah, you look amazing. my goodness. So that's the stuff that I like. That's hard to Okay. That's hard to swallow. And I try not to comment on stuff. So Maddie's going to be watching my daughter and I don't try to comment on anything, but it's like cringy. Yeah. Like I'm like, And you do have to be careful. So an example was, you know, Tom Brady does the former,
I'm a fellow all-star quarterback for the Patriots, does football commentating now. And I hadn't seen him until this past season. I walked by the TV and my kids were in the room and I went, whoa. And I made some comment like that. And my husband kind of looked at me like, take it down, the boys. And one of my kids was like, like what, what was that for? And I was like, just Tom Brady. Like, well, like what? They wanted to know. He just looks different. Like he just looks different than I remembered. I had to be really cognizant of that.
that they're watching, they're listening, and it's such a visual. And then not only is it me just having those thoughts and commentary, it's the people around when you start having that commentary. Like, are you going to be with your husband Owen saying, did you see? Did you see on the screen? We will just give each other a look. But you know what? think it just highlights like all of these little pieces we're talking about is highlights that we don't put these people on a pedestal.
And so when they put themselves on a pedestal, it can be difficult. And you shouldn't put anybody that is not, at least in my opinion, shouldn't put anybody that's not in your actual real life on a pedestal. You don't know these people. But so often the media, I think the media would suggest that we supposed to. We are supposed to put them on a pedestal and we are supposed to.
look at these people as role models and things we should aspire to be. it's just so not the case. And the curtain has been pulled back significantly after the Me Too movement. Harvey Weinstein. Harvey Weinstein. He had his fingers in everything. And when he was gone, was like, okay. he and what Me Too did was, I think, again, my opinion, and probably, you know, have any way of knowing for sure it
Vanessa (30:31.166)
made it so that nobody was off limits. There's, Matt Lauer, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Kevin Spacey and Diddy. I mean, on and on were the people who engaged in those behaviors, some of them for probably a very long time and probably became very emboldened and entitled and confident feeling that they would always get away with it. And I also think that was the culture in Hollywood and the music industry. So was probably really normalized for quite a long time and people got very complacent.
What me too did was make it so nobody was off limits. I remember seeing people's names come out in the media in the past couple of years and going, mean, Matt Lauer is a perfect example. Cosby. Bill Cosby, yeah, that nobody's off limits, no matter how much money you have, no matter how many connections you have. No matter how far back it was. Yeah. Right. People are going back. people are going back. People are feeling comfortable coming forward now. Right. There's something with Sacha Baron Cohen.
Yeah, I heard that. Like, it's, I like him. Yeah. Well, but that's the problem is that I don't know him. You don't. So my reaction is, I like him. Right. But I don't know. Separate the craft from the person. Which is hard. Yeah. Like, I know my mom growing up, if there was someone she just didn't like, and not even necessarily for any specific reason, but she was just like,
It would affect, she wouldn't want to see the movies with them. She wouldn't want to, and that's really hard to do nowadays because you're sure you would not see a lot of movies if you knew all, if you factored in who they were. Some people are great. We didn't have that much access to that type of information before. Does that mean that we're inadvertently supporting them? If we don't separate. But then you go into sports, you go into like, we are supporting all of these people who do lots we don't have the power to. Diddy.
And that, mean, I think we all have to remind, there's lots of people who are not doing these things too, right? And so then how do you, right? Like you don't want to hurt them. don't want to be hurt. I believe Jennifer Karner is a delight. Yeah, she seems like a delightful person. I think so. I think we can all agree on that. Is that your example? Okay. I think we're all in agreement. Where if you found out something scandalous about her, you would be devastated. would legitimately be like.
Vanessa (32:51.168)
No, but Matt Lauer, for example, I was a huge Today Show fan in grad school in my mid to late 20s when I started private practice, because I didn't have to start work till 10 a.m. So I'd all in the morning, you know, the Today Show. And I loved him. I always remember thinking he was a bit step-fritty and constricted, maybe a little robotic, but a smooth, slick, well-oiled news machine, right? And that was just his personality. He'd always been very successful. There was something very comforting. I thought he was good looking.
When that stuff came out about him, I remember being shocked, but not surprised, if that makes sense. They're like, man, but also, now that I think about it and look at it from that angle and hearing some of that, I can see maybe that he could do that. And I also, the information that his wife had filed for divorce multiple times and then retracted it. So I knew there was something there marriage-wise, a lot of back and forth.
Yeah, but can you still like him as a news anchor and separate him as a, right? that's what I think. appreciate he's a good news anchor. He's good at his job, but Because you're saying you like him. You don't know him. And I don't know You like him as a news anchor. I like him exactly. And he, think, I did like how he sort of up to Tom Cruise in that one interview. And I do think he was a good interviewer. Two things can be true at same time. Absolutely. So with that, I was thinking about Kevin Spacey and Mel Gibson. Okay. Yep.
both of these people have gone down for like Mel Gibson. And I was heartbroken for different reasons. just like Mel Gibson. Like he was just, he was an 80s staple. Yeah, lethal weapon. Oh my gosh, Braveheart. 1890s staple. I loved Mel Gibson. Mad Max. And now you'll see him occasionally in these like movies and I have no interest. And it's weird because I'm just, mean, one, they're not great movies. So it's not like, I feel like I'm missing something, but I'm a little bit like, oh.
and Kevin Spacey, I was heartbroken with that one because he was such a good actor. He was so amazing. But I do think I could go back and watch his old stuff and still appreciate who he was. But if you were to make a movie today, I don't know if I'd support that. I don't think anyone wants to work with him, always. Did he die? No, no, he's alive. He's alive. All of a sudden I was like, he's just off the map. No, I had read a story and I thought it said he committed suicide.
Vanessa (35:19.342)
So that's what, and then I was like, then I reread it and I was like, it was someone else. And I was like, nevermind. So that's why I have that in my. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That's what it was. I feel like it's, I think one of the good things is that it seems like once these things come out about people, like we're not, like Hollywood is not being forgiving where I feel like in the past we've been kind of forgiving of things. And I feel like we're being less forgiven. So like a lot of these people that you've mentioned, they're not.
They won't be there tomorrow. We're not seeing them doing anything. We're not seeing them, you know, kind of be talked about. So I think that that's a good thing. Tony, you say that because Matt Lauer, when this first happened, this is probably not true, but there was an article that came out that said he has met with his agent multiple times in hopes that he'll lay quiet for a while. I think that's what people did. And they probably still do. Yes. And when you say that, it me think of how he had originally planned to have a comeback. And, but I think that's not
possibility as much anymore as it used to be. think that's why we haven't seen or heard from him. It's been years. Rob Lowe and Robert Downey Jr. both went through some real rough things. Robert Downey Jr. for there were scandals and all of these and like they are now adored. Because they owned it. Because one of them had like a- At least publicly there was like a porn video. yeah. Oh, yeah. I think that was Rob Lowe. So long time ago. Yes, but he's now-
But think people also categorize behavior, right? people who are like drug using, you know what I mean? Feels very different than people who are manipulating people and taking advantage of people who are in positions of less. Assaulting people. mean, are, yes. I feel like that can play a role too. What is it that you've done? The offense. Yes. And people's willingness to forgive that behavior.
I agree. I agree. Now I have a question for you guys. So when it's something completely egregious, Matt Lauer, Kevin Spacey, Diddy, Weinstein, those, Bill Cosby, there's a lot. Okay. Those are on one end of the spectrum. Like there's not really, but then you've got this cancel culture where something comes out about something and then they're done. a comment they made. Yes. But is that
Vanessa (37:39.054)
this, should that be this? No, no, but it, it can be, almost like it can be. And then it's like, okay, that's too much. People are, they're humans and they do and say things and are allowed to make mistakes. So where's the line? That's where's the line. know this is over here, but there's a spectrum. What's really tricky is I, my personal opinion is that no, there is so many shades of gray and things are so complex and nuanced and you have to take every situation as an N of one.
and look at that particular situation, all the contextual variables, the people involved, the environment, everything that you have, at least information you're privy to that you have access to. And I think look at it on a case by case basis. But I also think, I often think of this quote and I won't say it verbatim, where George Clooney has said, when you decide to pursue this as a profession or you are found and it works out for you, part of the deal,
is you are out there and you are putting yourself out there for exposure, for criticism, for appraise, for appraisal. He said, it is the deal. He goes, if you don't want to be a part of it, you live in New York, you live in Cuomo like he does. He goes, know, when you reach a certain level of celebrity, you know where to live, where to go, where not to go. You can figure out a way to operate on a daily basis to either be open to that type of exposure.
or not. So basically, when you become big Hollywood, you're essentially becoming like royal family. And you follow the rules. And if you don't, yes, you have to learn to deal with the It's a choice. Yeah, it's a choice. That's like any other profession. And feel like for some people, the mentality is there are no rules, right? Right. And that's where you get those extremes. Like, well, once I get to that level, there are no rules that apply to me. And I think that's hence where the problems start to begin when you don't.
Therein lies the rub. Right. I mean. No pun intended, but it worked out. Well, and it's interesting to see, speaking of like, where's the line and it, Tom Cruise. I just want to up Tom Cruise for a second. He's an interesting example to There's something who he has been in the world for so long. I'm like, he is a totally different person from when he started.
Vanessa (40:06.894)
Right? Like from the outsiders. Risky business. Risky business. It was the outsiders, then it was risky business. And who he was then to this person now. And it was like, sometimes I just think they're in this world too long and they go crazy. Like they literally, like they don't even know what it feels like to be normal. So then rules of normal people don't- buy paper towels in 40 years. who only agree with them and say they're amazing. Yes, people. Yes, people. Yes, people.
So they're like, I am a psychology. They never developed that prefrontal lobe, which we all know helps you with decision making and problem solving and things like that. If they get famous that young, they truly have never had to allow those neural pathways to grow. so they don't. Perpetual 16 year olds or whatever. They stay in that stage of development. And that's why when you see him at 54 or something acting. Jumping on couch.
Right. Or making choices that are inconsistent with what you'd expect at that age level. It's because developmentally, these people are the 16 year olds that they were when they got famous. Do you know what that reminds me of? And I'm pointing to you, Lauren, because I think we found this research together at some point. They're based on Piagetian theory. Yes. we Piaget developmental stages of development. Yes. That most individuals, and I couldn't give you a stat, but most individuals
Never reach. Never reach formal operational thinking, which is the final stage. Final stage of development. only achieve formal operational in their profession of choice. Yep. So they can be an amazing engineer, architect, stylist, therapist, fill in the blank. Actor. Actor, police officer, et cetera, business owner, because they have dedicated so many hours of lived experience to that profession. So they reach, so they can seem very...
and skilled and successful, good problem solvers, but then they can sort of suck in those other domains in their lives because they haven't fully developed it, whether it's marriage, relationships, being a community member, a parent, And if you're catered to like they are in Hollywood, in all of those other areas, why would you have to ever utilize those pathways and develop growth in those areas? You just assume that's, I don't even know if you're aware.
Vanessa (42:28.364)
No, I don't think so. don't think they're aware, to your point, what you were saying is like. Well, like the celebrities that are like, I don't have nannies or whatever. And I'm like, but you've got something. You're not, you're not. But they might have a personal chef and a home organizer. they might have personal chef. Someone to run all your errands. There's no one titled nanny, technically. So they're able to stand by that as a truthful statement. Be with their kids, but then they don't have to.
I have to be with my kids and I have to pick up groceries and I have to do laundry and I have to. Yeah. Yes. we saw on this trip the first night, that we were all together. We watched a movie on Netflix. be my maybe. Very good. Very good. Adorable. Very good. And Keanu Reeves had a little bit more than a cameo, but kind of a cameo in it. And the reason I had watched this movie years back was because this cameo had been written up.
And Keanu Reeves is playing himself. he's clearly playing a heightened version. a caricature of like the Hollywood, the crazy Hollywood. Yes. And it is hysterical. He's great. He's very well done. By the way, there's one, a good example of so far. So far, I'm not gonna lie. Don't say it. I love I won't say it, but it's still a point break. that appears to Like a Jennifer Garner.
Jennifer Aniston say, but you're right. People talk about Keanu, people who talk about him and know him really kind of say he's it's what you see is what you He's not, wouldn't say he's normal, but he's Hollywood normal. Like he's normal for standards of like, a good human. Yes. mean, I think if you it all into perspective, like you just said, Hollywood normal. So we put this all into perspective and we don't elevate these people in the way media would like us to.
And then it's okay. You can look at the pretty dresses and call it a night. Enjoy it for them for what they are. It's not all or nothing. It's watch, if you're a movie buff. It's the same thing as watching sports. Exactly. Then you read into it. Do I want to be friends with Travis Kelsey? mean, maybe I do, maybe I don't, but I'm like, Maybe not a good example. I'm a big Travis. Well, Tom Brady. Terry Wood. I would. See, Terry Wood. My husband would. No, no.
Vanessa (44:52.994)
But he is an amazing, he was an amazing football player. Yeah. want to hear you saying like, can be amazing at something and not elevate that person and suck it up. Yeah. Well, yeah. You can not be a good person in other kinds of realms of your life. You can be a great dad and a crappy husband. Yeah. I mean, you're right. Look at any two things can be true. Yes. Yes. I mean, the joke in our profession is of course that like, therapists, we should have like
good, you know, whatever. like, isn't the joke in our field like some of, you know, right, like we're supposed to be the perfect doctor's make the worst patients. Yeah, that's true. And I know where you're going. See you. Or like, even raising our kids will talk about it. We're like, we're getting in our own head because like we know, like you guys see it with like testing, like you see so many things that you're like, take off that hat. Yes. It's hard sometimes. you're like, okay, step
could be a whole nother conversation. Absolutely. Any other thoughts on today's stuff?
No, I wouldn't. We're going to enjoy the rest of our time here in Charlotte. our last night in Charlotte. Our last night in Charlotte. All right. Thanks for joining us on The Shrinkdown.