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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in Sobriety. [00:01:00] Okay,
[00:01:03] Kathleen: from sober powered. She is an educator and she's a source of knowledge and understanding for those looking to understand their relationship with alcohol on a deeper level. Our episode today continues our conversation from last week and today you're going to hear more about anger management and crisis intervention.
[00:01:20] Kathleen: It is worth the listen. Believe me. We're going to switch gears a little bit to anger management, because you're also an anger management specialist, so we'd like to, to talk a little bit about that, how that factors into substance use disorder. How prevalent is anger in individuals who are struggling with addiction, and what form does it typically take?
[00:01:43] Gill: Anger is a major contributor to relapse.
[00:01:47] Kathleen: Wow, did not know that.
[00:01:50] Sonia: Maybe that's why I haven't had one! I'm not angry enough! Ha ha ha ha!
[00:01:58] Gill: Anxiety
[00:01:59] Kathleen: Oh, [00:02:00] okay, okay. She's good on that
[00:02:01] Sonia: got that one.
[00:02:04] Gill: Yeah, so high levels of anger Predict less sober days basically so if you look at people in treatment centers the pissed off people are more likely to drink then the Whatever else they're feeling people Anger is really intense and It's very uncomfortable and the thing about anger too is it's a it's a secondary emotion So you felt something else that was so uncomfortable for you That you got angry Because that feeling is more comfortable.
[00:02:42] Gill: So you don't even know a lot of times You what the original feeling was. So it's really hard to deal with. Now you have to deal with the anger and do detective work and then figure out how to deal with the original feeling. So it could be pain, [00:03:00] embarrassment, humiliation, low self esteem, all different things lead to anger.
[00:03:06] Gill: But such an intense emotion, like anxiety is, that we get really overwhelmed and we don't know what to do. You So we drink to bring the intensity down. So, and a lot of people will tell me like they get sober and now they're cranky all the time and they don't have tolerance for anybody's annoying behavior.
[00:03:31] Gill: They get really, really mad at very minor things and that's all completely normal because alcohol damages the entire brain. So it damages your emotional centers. So in the beginning, your emotions are more intense as your brain heals and recalibrates. So that's why a lot of people are prone to anger in the beginning, but it makes it really difficult because we want to drink [00:04:00] at people that we're angry at.
[00:04:03] Gill: This whole thing like, oh you can't hurt me, I'll show you how much I can hurt me. And it, it makes no sense at all when you think about it, But we do it all the time and we just blow up ourselves To like i'll show you So anger is a very difficult emotion to experience
[00:04:25] Sonia: I think that's so interesting about it being a secondary emotion. I think, doesn't Brene Brown say that too? that shame is, is shame a secondary emotion to something else?
[00:04:35] Gill: Shame is a very big cause of anger, too.
[00:04:39] Sonia: so Jill, what are the first steps, um, for someone to recognize and to manage their anger when they're in that process of recovery?
[00:04:48] Gill: The first step is awareness Acknowledging that you are an angry person With no coping skills for your anger [00:05:00] And when I work with people on their anger, really the first step is understanding how their anger shows up. Are they passive aggressive? Are they steamrolling? Do they blow up at people? Like, what does their anger look like? And then identifying the triggers for it. And then learning coping skills. The thing about anger is I mean, it goes back to childhood, right? Like, everything, so annoying, but there's some unmet need that you had that you're trying to meet. with your anger. So it could be a need for connection. It could be a need for respect.
[00:05:46] Gill: I'm a big shame anger person. So anytime I feel disrespected, dismissed, not valued, oh, I get so mad. And it's my need to [00:06:00] be a An equal to be respected and valued and You try to get the need met with the anger, which doesn't work So if you can learn how to get your needs met for real, you won't have to get angry So we think of anger management kind of like a a like a bunch of angry people in a room talking about their anger Really?
[00:06:26] Gill: It's not it's like how do you set a boundary? You How do you learn how to communicate your needs without being passive aggressive or blowing up at people? How's your self care? Do you do anything to take care of yourself at all? And it's a lot of destructive thinking too. A lot of anger triggers are like, here we go again when someone does something, or this always happens to me.
[00:06:55] Gill: Things never go my way. A lot of absolutes. [00:07:00] And then it's the way that you think about the thing. That actually pisses you off. And so you have to also work on your destructive thinking patterns. So that was like five
[00:07:12] Kathleen: what are some effective anger management techniques in individuals in recovery? And so I think you've named a few, but are there any specific techniques you use with clients in terms of their anger management?
[00:07:26] Gill: Yeah, we use a lot of humor.
[00:07:29] Sonia: love that,
[00:07:30] Gill: Yeah, so making it funny. I speak very differently in anger management than I do in anywhere else. Like, I swear a lot, and I label people. I call them idiots and morons and jerks, and my reason for doing that is to validate the angry person, but to also bring [00:08:00] humor into it and show them that the way that we think and behave is actually pretty funny. If you think, like, they're observing me doing it. And it's funny. So then when they do it, it can kind of diffuse the anger a bit. I also teach them empathy. Can we find empathy for this person? That's really hard when your anger is directed at somebody else. But can we, like if you have road rage, for example, and someone cuts you off and flips you off.
[00:08:38] Gill: on your way to work. That is a disrespect trigger. You feel slighted. You might want to retaliate and like chase them down. I'll show you! And instead, if you could just be like, wow, that person must be having a really bad day to be [00:09:00] acting like this at 7 a. m. I hope their day That's empathy. I had a client once who got angry about people that drove fast down his street, because it was a residential street, and Empathy doesn't have to be positive.
[00:09:22] Gill: That's why I like this example. He, I forget the kind of car, because I'm not a car person, but he was like, anyone that's driving that kind of car, it was like a, I can't even describe it, I don't know, must just have a really bad life. And that made him laugh. And then move on with his day.
[00:09:43] Sonia: yeah, um, I love
[00:09:44] Gill: So it doesn't have to be like finding gratitude for the person and wishing them well.
[00:09:50] Gill: Anything to diffuse your anger and move on. So a lot of those techniques.
[00:09:55] Sonia: fu Kathleen and I make fun of my ex [00:10:00] constantly, I think, for that reason, right? we're just like, God, that guy has to live with himself.
[00:10:06] Gill: That's great
[00:10:07] Sonia: Yes!
[00:10:08] Kathleen: Yeah. That is great. Empathy.
[00:10:10] Sonia: Jill, what changes do you start to see in people as they work on their anger in recovery?
[00:10:16] Gill: They become calm and you can actually see it. They go from wound up, stressed, insecure, sometimes on the verge of tears, Too calm, they sit up taller, uh, they, they don't feel like they have to get a word in as fast. They just feel more confident and secure in themselves. And you can actually see it, like, whether they speak or not, just the way that they hold themselves.
[00:10:52] Gill: So they go from, when you're angry, it's very stressful. And you have, [00:11:00] like, this feeling of rushing all the time. I think you just, you rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's why angry people will get their shirt caught on the door because they're rushing and they can't slow down And they they can't take a break And then they get their shirt caught and they flip out But really there's a lot of stuff behind the shirt getting caught that we can address and when they start to rework Those things and increase their tolerance for stress and discomfort They calm down and then that stuff doesn't happen anymore and they can redirect faster So it's just even the way that they look like sometimes i'll have a client log in and i'll be like, whoa You look so good.
[00:11:49] Gill: Like, how are you feeling and you know, they have a win before they even share it.
[00:11:54] Kathleen: That's super interesting. I find that so interesting. what ways can family and friends [00:12:00] support their loved ones who are struggling with anger? Yeah,
[00:12:07] Gill: The way that my husband helps me is By validating me a lot. My number one rule for anger management is No, look on the bright side reframes ever
[00:12:23] Sonia: Okay. Oh
[00:12:24] Gill: that's gonna make an angry person feel invalidated and alone And want to isolate because they don't feel understood. Some people want that and if they ask for that, like, great.
[00:12:38] Gill: But I think what helps more is to validate the actual feeling that they're having. So my husband, will hype me up. If I'm angry about someone who did something, he'll just be like, What a jerk! Who does that? Like, what's wrong [00:13:00] with them? I can't believe, who acts that way? And then we both start laughing about it. And that is very helpful. So don't try to squash the feeling. Help them, help them talk about it and work through it and bring in humor. I think that's the easiest and most helpful thing to do, and to just listen. And if you do want to offer a suggestion, I would ask, Can I, can I make a suggestion? Can I offer a reframe?
[00:13:32] Gill: Sometimes they just want to be heard and nothing else. Sometimes they do really want a reframe. Because they just can't get there themselves. So, when in doubt, ask. And always humor.
[00:13:45] Sonia: my god, I think we do that,
[00:13:47] Kathleen: we do that.
[00:13:47] Sonia: do hype each other up
[00:13:49] Sonia: when
[00:13:49] Kathleen: do. We do.
[00:13:51] Gill: It's helpful, right?
[00:13:52] Kathleen: helpful. I definitely want that too. And I, I would say my, my partner has had some challenges with [00:14:00] anger, not like the Towards me, but just in the world and I also use humor Like I started telling him like it's okay Your default is to be a dick like oh the dick is out like I like dick is here And it's funny because he is barely angry at all anymore.
[00:14:17] Kathleen: He's like, I don't want to be that dick I don't want my default to be a dick. And so there you go. I think it's humor is funny We sonia and I very much When we're angry about something, you know, when she was getting a divorce and wasn't treated so well, I was like, what? Like, I'm very, we validate.
[00:14:37] Sonia: in a helpful way than I was. You were like, If I bumped into that guy in a dark alley, kind of stuff, and I was like, What would you do? I was like, what's the rest of that sentence? I really kind of want to know. But, yeah, and then we have, we have an angry person in common.
[00:14:56] Sonia: My brother. Man, that guy [00:15:00] is angry. We should probably maybe send him to chill
[00:15:06] Kathleen: Yeah. Jill for sure. We should like,
[00:15:09] Gill: Class starts
[00:15:10] Kathleen: Oh, really?
[00:15:11] Kathleen: we could send him a podcast.
[00:15:13] Sonia: do you know how angry he would get if you sent him like a link to Jill's anger management
[00:15:20] Kathleen: Yeah, I would love it. Like no subject line, just a link to the class. Send
[00:15:25] Sonia: and he is one of those people that it's like he doesn't say the meanest things but my god, you can feel it.
[00:15:34] Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah, you can.
[00:15:37] Sonia: Actually, that works
[00:15:38] Sonia: into our next question, which is how can anger be a barrier to seeking help and acknowledging addiction? That is, oh my god, this is literally this guy. Love him, but like, this is this guy.
[00:15:51] Kathleen: I don't, but there you go. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
[00:15:55] Gill: Yeah, anger? Because it's a secondary emotion? [00:16:00] You can't, you can't acknowledge what you're really feeling. So you can learn to laugh it off. Blah blah blah, whatever. But you also have to address the original feeling. Are you ashamed? Do you, are you upset because there's been an injustice? Do you feel disconnected?
[00:16:28] Gill: Do you feel alone? Do you feel humiliated? There's a lot of other stuff behind it that, it's really, it's a lot of self esteem work. Which nobody, really especially men, want to admit that they have low self esteem. And the more that you can work on those things, the less explosive you're gonna be. A lot of men will go more towards, like, explosive anger. Women will go towards stuffing.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Kathleen: Okay.
[00:17:01] Gill: And there are, there are, I've worked with women that explode and men that stuff. So, we do both. But women will stuff their anger a lot of the times and be passive aggressive, build resentments and things like that. So it's difficult because there's a lot to address. I think anger makes us feel righteous.
[00:17:24] Gill: It makes us feel like somebody did something to us. And they're wrong and we're right. And it kind of keeps us on this little island where we can't connect with other people because we're so angry. You can't connect when you're furious. And you usually push people away, whether you're explosive or a stuffer, it doesn't matter.
[00:17:49] Gill: So And also, alcohol and drugs make anger go away. Poof! It's gone. So, why wouldn't you just [00:18:00] drink at that person? It's their fault. They made you so angry. You wouldn't have to drink if they weren't such a jerk. So it gives you excuses to drink or use that make a lot of
[00:18:14] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm. What about forgiveness? What role does forgiveness play in, in managing anger, through recovery? And so forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others.
[00:18:29] Gill: That's really hard. I think that's why we start with humor, and then we work towards empathy, even if it's not good empathy. Like, that guy must be a loser to have that car. It doesn't have to be great. And then you can work towards building self esteem. I feel like the self is always harder for, I like to think of it as letting go.
[00:18:58] Gill: Like, when you have a [00:19:00] resentment, we just want this person. To grow and change and be better really we want them to live by our rules So we put our rules and standards and values on other people and we expect them to live their lives that way When they've never said that they actually want to live their life that way if someone is not changing You can just feel sad for them.
[00:19:30] Gill: Wow, they must be in so much pain that they can't even start to do this work. Because it hurts too much. And then you can find whether that's forgiveness or letting it go. But I feel like you have to rework things in your head for a long time before you can get to that point. And then eventually you can kind of work on yourself and building self esteem the whole way [00:20:00] through.
[00:20:00] Kathleen: Thank you for sharing that because yeah, I think forgiveness is a tough one, right? Like there's, it's lots of steps before then.
[00:20:07] Sonia: So, This is interesting. I was actually recently asked to do an in person intervention and I referred it out to somebody in the area because I didn't feel comfortable doing it and so I have a lot of questions for you, Jill, about crisis intervention and Jill is a crisis intervention specialist.
[00:20:27] Sonia: So, how do you define crisis intervention in the context of addiction recovery?
[00:20:35] Gill: When someone is in crisis, we can usually label them as a crazy person
[00:20:44] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:20:46] Gill: or someone that has no self control. What's actually happening is this person is so dysregulated that they cannot think [00:21:00] at all. They In anger management and crisis intervention, we talk a lot about the evolved brain, which I mentioned earlier.
[00:21:10] Gill: They can't even be there. They only exist in the reactive part of the brain that's in survival mode. They're so threatened and dysregulated. that they just can't do anything. So the most important part of crisis intervention is bringing this person into their evolved brain where they can think a thought about anything.
[00:21:38] Gill: So you do that by Validating the person's experience and bringing in shared values, global values. You avoid any kind of you statement at all costs. You would say things like, Everybody [00:22:00] deserves to be respected. Everybody deserves a certain amount of respect. Everybody deserves a safe space to live. And they can't argue with that.
[00:22:12] Gill: When someone's in crisis, they're just, they're like looking for something to blame. by validating them and bringing in global values, you expand their vision a little bit and you disarm them. And that helps move them into the evolved brain. So the most important thing for someone doing crisis intervention is your ability to Self regulation has to be like on point because if you're stressed or you're getting anxious, you're going to hype the other person up instead of bring them down.
[00:22:54] Gill: So you have to stay very calm and regulated yourself to help this person do [00:23:00] the same thing. So you're like guiding them towards regulation. You see it a lot. I have a lot of parents that That come to anger management, and what happens here is they get into battles with their children over things like bedtime or ending screen time and doing an activity that the kid doesn't want to do.
[00:23:24] Gill: And the kid is hyped up and upset, and what happens is then the parent gets upset, and then they both build, they raise each other up in a negative way, where if the parent can learn to self regulate and stay calm, They'll bring their child down with them instead of everybody escalating and going up. So that's the, the key for the person doing the intervention is you have to be very, very, very [00:24:00] calm and in charge of your own regulation and your own triggers too.
[00:24:06] Gill: Because if someone says something that's triggering for you and you react, it's done. Now the crisis is times a thousand.
[00:24:14] Kathleen: this so much. We talked a little bit before we started recording about, I'm a couple's therapist and this is so critical, in couples therapy as well. This, this, like I have to regulate my emotions, my reactivities so, so much. And then what I say, I shared a couple's is that it actually only takes one of you to deescalate.
[00:24:37] Kathleen: So if, if you both can't deescalate, then you've got a problem. But if one of you can, then you've got a good day on your hands. Like, it just takes one person to bring that nervous system down and to help regulate. So I think that's, I love that tip in terms of how can friends and family support. Because that's huge.
[00:24:59] Kathleen: [00:25:00] Manage yourself. Manage your own reactivity. how you are showing up with this person, right?
[00:25:08] Gill: And that's what we're in charge of, and the old method of crisis intervention was like if the person, in, in anger management, you give yourself a rating between a 1 and a 10 of how emotionally aroused you are. If you show up and the person's at an 8, the crisis interventionist would come in at a 10 and squash them.
[00:25:36] Gill: Like, into submission. And that's what a lot of couples do. When I get an angry couple, men and women do it. And their partner will be whatever, and they'll show up much higher and they'll squash them into doing what they want them to do. And then they feel like, [00:26:00] my husband only cleans when I get angry. My husband only does whatever when I get really mad at him and it does work Technically, but it's not an effective strategy long term and it's not good for your relationship If we could if we could learn like to regulate ourselves Like you were saying you can't continue to be like all hyped up with someone who's calm
[00:26:31] Kathleen: That's super interesting and I see it, I love that you mentioned it cause I, I see it from a different approach, right? With couples, but that's exactly what I'm doing, which is, validating for me as a therapist, I have to tell you. so what, what happens during a crisis intervention?
[00:26:47] Kathleen: Like what is the importance of timing? What is the role of family and friends?
[00:26:53] Gill: So in a like in a true crisis It's best for the [00:27:00] crisis interventionist and the person in crisis to just be having a conversation because family and friends most of the time Like
[00:27:10] Kathleen: Yeah,
[00:27:11] Gill: they get they get nervous and Or they they want to squash the person in like a intervention style Like if you're trying to intervene on someone's addiction The, we actually did one in my family recently. And I, I managed it and it went better than like you could have hoped. It was an A
[00:27:35] Kathleen: Really?
[00:27:37] Gill: The key was calm. You have to be extremely calm and you have to, every statement that you say, you challenge yourself to say it in the shortest way possible. That was, when I did my training, I had to practice de escalating actors, so it was really [00:28:00] intimidating. And my, I was already trained in anger management, so I had a lot of skills that I brought into it. And my mission during my training was how can I say this in the briefest way possible. Because the person who's in crisis or the person that feels cornered is going to be searching for anything you say that they can latch onto and derail the conversation.
[00:28:27] Kathleen: Huh.
[00:28:28] Gill: So if you keep it very brief and clear, they can't find anything. And if you keep showing empathy and validating, like, they will eventually give up and calm down. But it's when family and friends are like, how could you do this? How could you let this happen, and they attack the person, that then it turns into a battle instead of a productive conversation.
[00:28:57] Kathleen: Hmm. So, I mean, without [00:29:00] getting into details, obviously, because it's a family situation, what made your A plus, family intervention A plus?
[00:29:07] Gill: There was a family member on the call that was very hurt and wanted to express their hurt. And, uh, what we did is we just kept Moving it back to the point and not letting those, there is a time to express the way that you feel, but when your goal is just to get this person to Accept that they have an addiction and take the first step to change That's not the time for that conversation because that's going to make them feel defensive and
[00:29:47] Kathleen: Mmhmm.
[00:29:49] Gill: So we just kept bringing it back.
[00:29:52] Gill: That's really what you do It's like if you imagine you're walking down a path and people are just trying to like [00:30:00] pull you Off to the side and like throw things at you. You're just like deflecting like nope. I'm not gonna go that way I'm not gonna go that way You just have your very clear mission, and you, you're very repetitive and brief, over and over and over and over, and you'll get to your goal.
[00:30:19] Gill: And, also, unrelated questioning, about, uh, like the person that was being intervened was asking questions, that the answer probably would have hyped them up. So, that's not the topic of conversation right now. We are discussing blah blah blah. You just keep bringing it back to the point, and avoiding anything that's going to escalate emotions for whoever's present.
[00:30:52] Kathleen: Amazing.
[00:30:54] Sonia: So, Joanne, in your experience, what are some triggers that might precipitate [00:31:00] a crisis that requires intervention?
[00:31:04] Gill: Unmet needs. So, your need for safety. So a lot of people that, um, don't have anywhere to live, If they're displaced from where they're trying to stay, that can put them in crisis because a very, very basic need is being threatened, the need for safety. Um, feeling like you do not have equality,
[00:31:38] Kathleen: Mmhmm.
[00:31:38] Gill: feeling like you're not as good or valued as other people.
[00:31:43] Gill: Um, a loss of connection. A lot of elderly people that struggle with dementia can have crisis because of the fear that comes from all the [00:32:00] confusion. So one of the scenarios in my training was a woman that had dementia that couldn't find her husband. So things like that, uh, fear, panic, threatening, like the loss of a basic need, disrespect, if someone lost their job, and that's like the last straw for this person, that could put them into crisis.
[00:32:29] Gill: So it's these like really basic needs that everyone is Should be entitled to that get threatened and then the person like they just cannot handle it Like they've just been beaten down and beaten down or they've had so much fear and stress That they panic and a lot of these people They're not existing in their evolved brain to begin with.
[00:32:55] Gill: So it's not just like they're walking around like normal and then they randomly lose their [00:33:00] job and they blow up. It's that it's been brewing in them for a long time and they've been existing in their primitive brain for a while and then something happens and they react in a very big way. So it's something that takes time to build to get to that point.
[00:33:21] Gill: Um, and again, the goal is just bring them back into their evolved brain where they can think things through, feel connected with other people, and calm down and make a good decision. And then eventually you want to teach them the skills to regulate themselves so that they can stay there and not panic. And get overly angry or anxious.
[00:33:49] Sonia: I also think it's a good option, compared to, when people have somebody like committed for like a 24 or 72 hour hold, when somebody's not in that like evolved [00:34:00] brain state. So Jill, do you have any upcoming projects that you want to share with us?
[00:34:06] Gill: I'm, of course refining my anger management program every time I run it uh and I Dabble in the idea of writing a book and then I un dabble
[00:34:21] Kathleen: Please write a
[00:34:22] Sonia: Please do.
[00:34:23] Kathleen: Please.
[00:34:25] Gill: It's a lot of
[00:34:26] Kathleen: I
[00:34:26] Sonia: It's a whole book.
[00:34:28] Kathleen: You are, have been such a wealth of knowledge. So please, please write a book, but continue, continue. What projects do you have on the go?
[00:34:38] Gill: Yeah, sometimes when I get angry, I channel it into rage, writing a book. And it's not a book about anger, it's a book about anger. addiction science, but it's, anger's a high energy emotion. I use the energy. So I have started it, but then I'm like, [00:35:00] no, I can't write a book. And then I talk myself out of it. And then I talk myself back into it.
[00:35:07] Gill: So right now I'm like in between those two states, like kind, maybe I'll do it, but maybe I shouldn't.
[00:35:17] Kathleen: I mean as a therapist, I would love to get into this with you, but I'm not going to, but I will, I will say. I would read the book. I would have it given to most of my clients. I think that it would be such a valuable, um, I can just tell already you are so gifted. You're such a gifted communicator and you have such a wealth of knowledge, like truly.
[00:35:44] Gill: Oh, thank you. It's all that self esteem
[00:35:47] Kathleen: That's what I'm saying. I'm not, we're not going to get into a therapy session right now, but I want to read the book.
[00:35:54] Gill: Yeah, what I've learned about self esteem work is it never ends. There's always [00:36:00] more to do on your self esteem.
[00:36:02] Kathleen: So you said you do have an anger management course coming up, right? We were pretending that we were going to send it to my ex husband. But, um, but how can people, or is there room can, how do people sign up for that?
[00:36:15] Gill: if you just go to my website, there's an anger management tab that you can click on.
[00:36:20] Gill: Amazing. We will link that in the show notes for sure. Where else can people find you, Jill?Yeah, so my podcast is Sober Powered if you search that in any app and then that's me on Instagram as Well, that's my main hangout spot Unfortunately, even though Instagram kind of sucks
[00:36:41] Kathleen: It does.
[00:36:42] Gill: It makes us angry but we have to use it
[00:36:47] Kathleen: For sure. Well, thank you. Honestly, thank you is just not enough, but thank you so much for being with us today. I know I personally learned a lot and I'm sure that our listeners did as well. And we will, like we said, we will link to [00:37:00] all of your information in the show notes.
[00:37:03] Gill: Thank you so
[00:37:03] Sonia: you so much, y'all.
[00:37:06] Kathleen: Thank you for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we'll see you next week.
[00:37:09] Gill: