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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Hey, everyone. Welcome to the debrief podcast with pastor Matthew Steven Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How are you doing? I'm good.
Donna Martin:Great. I am so excited to jump into these questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. So good.
Donna Martin:Good. Okay. Well, we're gonna jump right in. Thank you all for sending in your questions. We love to hear from you, and we love to hear pastor Matt's perspective about Yeah.
Donna Martin:Your questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:These are great questions.
Donna Martin:Thank you. So this is Alyssa. I think that's right. Yeah. Alisa from Grand Terrace.
Donna Martin:What if I don't wanna be married? Growing up, I have witnessed a lot of ugliness. Marriage just doesn't seem for me, but I know in the bible, marriage is supposed to be a good thing. I'm currently in a serious relationship, and I do truly love him, and marriage is something he wants. I'm not sure what to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Great question. And just for our listeners, California is on fire Yes. And my allergies are off the hook. So I've not been smoking, but I am breathing.
Donna Martin:Yes. Well, we all feel like we're smoking right now outside.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I woke up this morning, I'm like, what is going on? Yeah. We have fires all around us.
Donna Martin:All around us. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And rain, torrential downpour. So Jesus is coming.
Donna Martin:Yes. Amen. Amen. Yes. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Alyssa, great great question. What if I don't want to be married? First of all, you don't have to be. We had a great message a couple weeks ago on singleness. Pastor Fredo preached
Donna Martin:it or your campus pastor at each campus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, singles are a beautiful part of our church. Jesus was single. Jeremiah is single. The apostle Paul is single. Many of the contributors to Christianity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There would be no church without single people. The Catholic church has gone a little too far mandating singleness. That's not appropriate. But in our tradition, oftentimes, we kinda mandate marriage. And that's Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Not appropriate either. And so, you know, I love what pastor Fredo said in his outline. We don't wanna obsess or oppose marriage. So I think that we all need to just realize that marriage is not God's will for everyone. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Specifically, Jeremiah begins with don't get married. Yeah. That's that's how the book of Jeremiah begins because, you know, you're gonna have a rough life. Mhmm. And I'm gonna call you to this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's called the weeping prophet because, you know, Israel did not listen to him. And so sometimes God singles us out for singleness. The apostle Paul says, some have the gift of singleness Mhmm. Some don't. He says that he wishes everyone were single as he is, and the church has kind of forgotten that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But some people, you know, want to get married and that's a desire for their heart. So let's just start there theologically, Alyssa. You don't have to be married to be a Christian. But I'm gonna get to this. Remind me if I forget.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You do have to be married to have sex.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you're gonna be a Christian. Mhmm. And I don't mean that, like, I identify as a Christian. I mean that I'm following Jesus. Right.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if you're following Jesus, you you cannot follow Jesus and have sex outside of marriage. Those two things, you know, it's an oxymoron. It does not it's two separate identities. And so and that doesn't mean that Christians can't get wrapped up or fail or fall, but we can't say God's okay with me sleeping with another person outside of marriage. And and I hear this all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You hear that because I love him
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Or I love her. And it's like, well, you're supposed to love Jesus first. And so, my commitment to my wife, Tammy, starts with Jesus.
Donna Martin:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and that's what holds me there when maybe my love for Tammy is shaky because we we we've been there. So growing up, I've witnessed a lot of ugliness. Let me just say this, Alyssa, a podcast isn't a pastor. I love you. Whatever campus you go to, Grand Terrace, hopefully HP, we are in Grand Terrace.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But get a pastor, go through soul care, have somebody walk through this with you. I would say, before you get married, I would unpack all this hurt, all this trauma, all the things that you saw. She said, marriage doesn't just seem for me, but I know the bible marriage is supposed to be a good thing.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's supposed to be, but but things are supposed to be good. I'm currently in a serious relationship and I do truly love him and marriage is something he wants. I'm not sure what to do. Well, Alyssa, ideally Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know what you think. This is something to decide before you start dating.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because it's really hard to make decisions once you get heartstrings involved. I think it's unfair to him, you know, to get serious, but not know if you wanna be married. So I would maybe put the brakes on that and say, hey, let's take some time. Maybe we take some time apart and we really, really evaluate this. And he's not gonna like that, but I don't know what his name is, but let me tell you what he doesn't want.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He doesn't wanna marry a woman who thinks marriage is a bad thing. Because you're not gonna make it, Alyssa. If you think marriage is bad and your perspective is bad, marriage is hard enough. You're married to a great guy. I love Devon.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. But it's not easy. So if you go into it thinking it can't work, I don't know that you're gonna be able to it out. So he needs to give you the freedom to figure this out. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You need to go to counseling, work through these hardships, work through this pain. I'm so sorry. But let me say this, Alyssa. As a Christian, our parents are not our examples. Jesus is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're not our examples. Yeah. Even in the bible, Abraham is not our example for marriage. Right. Two times.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He says, not my wife. That's my sister. Two times. Jacob's a liar, not our example.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, who am I forgetting? Isaac, not an example.
Donna Martin:David.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. David. Oh. Even worse. You know, just he killed a guy that was loyal to him and took his wife.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, the Bible is not prescriptive, it's descriptive. Here's what they did. And so what we need to do is look to Jesus. Who's the faithful husband? Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's faithful no matter what to his wife, no matter how many times she cheats. No matter how much she lies, no matter how awful she is, he makes her holy. And so we need to look to Jesus for that. And so what I would do is, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would invite Jesus and say, Jesus, I I really have a conflicted heart here. Mhmm. Would you lead me in this? I love this guy, but I have trauma Mhmm. When it comes to marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't think you have to be completely healed, Alyssa, to get married, but I think there has to be some healing. Yeah. Because you're gonna judge your boyfriend for the things your dad did. You're gonna judge your future husband for the things your mom did. And you're gonna take that trauma and put it in your marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And marriage is hard enough when But it's if we got a backpack of pain that we're bringing into it, what I would say is unpack that. And if He loves you, he'll wait for you Mhmm. To heal and work through these issues. Now, you need to you need to do the work. So because I hate it when people are like, I'm working on it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm like, okay, you went to Hawaii. That's not working on it. Do the work, go to counseling, dig it up. Because here's the thing, sometimes things get a little worse before they get better. So a big thing is MMDR is how do you say it?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:EMDR. EMDR. So EMDR is this is type of therapy where they bring back the pain and they do this therapy to where you can move it from your frontal lobe in the present and put it in memory. And it's pretty amazing because a lot of us, our trauma is still right up front and we need to move it to the back so we can move forward. But here's what happens in EMDR.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes it gets worse at first.
Donna Martin:Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's why you need time to work through this. But but do that. Go through that. Find a Christian counselor, maybe somebody that specializes in that and work through those traumatic issues, and then learn from it. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Learn. Okay. Here's what my mom did. What would Jesus have me do differently? Here's what my dad did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What what do I need my boyfriend to do differently? Mhmm. And then you go to him and you unpack that, and you talk about that beforehand. So Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna turn to you, but a big issue for Tammy and I was money.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay? My my my mom and dad didn't have a lot of money, but we paid the bills. I always ate. I was never homeless, and I never went without. I didn't always get what I wanted.
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I never missed what I needed. So I had two good parents. My wife's family, money was brutal. Mhmm. Brutal.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, her mom and dad went to prison for a period of time because of money issues. Oh my goodness. Scary stuff. Yeah. Scary scary stuff.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now, they were exonerated, they got out.
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But she has trauma
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When it comes to bills.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, I was not prepared for that. Mhmm. We spent ten years, Donna. Ten years in counseling. Listen to this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ten years for her to trust me to pay the bills.
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now, I had to become trustworthy. Absolutely. You know, because young Matt Brown, he liked to spin, you know. And so, you know, older, wiser Matt Brown constantly tells her, hey, we're okay. I'm constantly telling her, here's what's in savings, Here's what's in retirement.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If I die, here's how you're gonna be taken care of. Because her trauma is, I'm gonna be all alone, I'm not gonna have food. Her pain is in kindergarten, she was sent to the principal's office because she was stealing another kid's lunch.
Donna Martin:Now
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you know my
Donna Martin:wife. That's trauma.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Like, my wife's not a bully. No. What was happening?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She was desperate. She was hungry. Yeah. My wife's hungry. So when I get frustrated with her, I have to remember this little girl Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That wasn't taken care of and her needs weren't met. On top of that, we have an alcoholic father.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? We have a mom that can't pay the bills, is doing the best she can. Mhmm. But my wife's, you know, childhood was trauma filled.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then as she grew up, every problem, dad left. Yep. I'm out of here. Right? So now my mom and dad didn't do that.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But we have to work through that and I have to be patient because I get frustrated sometimes.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because in the back of her mind, Donna, she thinks that's what I'm gonna do.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm like, I've been here a long time.
Donna Martin:Yeah. I mean, I can relate to that. My husband grew up in the same house from the time he was five till he was 18.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh,
Donna Martin:yeah. Very stable, loving parents, stay at home mom, dad paid the bills, family vacations. Contrast with my life, you know, my parents struggled Yeah. And ultimately separated into when I was in the seventh grade, lots of financial trauma, never lived in the same place for more than a year or two, moved around a lot. I remember being homeless and Oh.
Donna Martin:I didn't know we were homeless. I was in the u haul, like, we have nowhere to go,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you know?
Donna Martin:But I didn't realize what it was. Moved around a lot, just a lot of trauma, and seventh my dad just refused. He he was addicted to drugs and we didn't know. I, you know, I knew earlier. My mom says she knew, but she didn't I don't know if she knew or not.
Donna Martin:But at seventh grade, you know, I my dad said he was going to rehab, that rocked my world, obviously. But I when I got married, and I got married at 21.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Baby.
Donna Martin:And my husband is 29 at the time. He's thinking, I saw him go off to work and I freaked out. I didn't even realize that I had never seen a man go to work. Yeah. Like, he would be working hard and I would be traumatized because I'm like, why aren't you here?
Donna Martin:Why aren't you here? Where you at? And I I had never seen a man get up and go to work or provide, and so those were a lot of things that we had to work through, and and for me, really, in finding my voice in marriage. And so I'm saying all that to say, it's not perfect, and I wasn't completely healed of everything, but I really started to find other because I didn't see a good marriage. Yeah.
Donna Martin:My parents didn't communicate well. There was a lot of trauma in that as well. And so I started as a 21 year old, I go, I need to look at somebody's marriage that looks better than the marriage that I had growing up. My in laws were great examples. I started to listen to other women in the body of Christ and go, oh, this is how you are a wife.
Donna Martin:And so I would say, after everything that you said, which was so good, it's like just be really careful of the voices that you're listening to while you're trying to decide if marriage is something for you. Because if you're constantly listening to it's bad, and there's all these problems, and there's all these issues, instead of like really renewing your mind with the word of God about marriage, and then finding examples that you can pattern your life after, it's gonna be really hard. And we all have stuff to work through
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:In marriage, you know? And and you have two very different people. I mean, I remember my husband going, because I esteem you so highly, I didn't even give you space to be broken.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Donna Martin:And I was like, yeah, I was totally broken. And totally had and me and my mom just had a huge discussion about this the other day, is that there was just, you know, I would say from the time I was 12 until I was went to college when I was 17, I pretty I was super independent. I pretty much raised myself, you know? I pretty much I didn't really need anybody to help me do a whole lot of things. I was naturally academically motivated, so my mom didn't have to do any of that.
Donna Martin:And then just stepping right out of college and right into my husband's home, man, that was a deuce. Yeah. Yeah. That was so different. I did not know a lot about being a wife and about being, you know, a mom eventually.
Donna Martin:And so I just really started to renew my mind in God's word, and find other women in the body of Christ that I could pattern my life after. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let me finish this last line. She says
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm currently in an assertion relationship and I truly do love him. Yeah. What a gift, Alyssa. Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you found a great guy, and this is what I told my girls, I want you to find somebody that loves you as much as I do.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And once you find that, I don't know how many times you get that in life.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, when my kids were little, we were big fans of the crocodile hunter.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we loved him, and and I always knew he was gonna die traumatically. Right. I just, you know, I didn't know, but I wasn't shocked. The only thing that was surprised is he didn't wasn't an alligator.
Donna Martin:Wasn't an alligator. But,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you know, she's never been on a date
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Since. And she said she said, I had the love of my life. And she said, most people never get it. She said, I'm blessed to have had it. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she said, I don't need it again. And I just thought, wow. She has perspective of how blessed she was to have the crocodile hunter in her life. And that meant a lot to me that their love life wasn't just on the set Yeah. But it was real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. And and it just really reminded me how precious a husband or a wife is if it's a good thing.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And right. The Bible says, he who finds a wife finds a good thing. And so that's a male dominated society. So you could say, she who finds a good husband finds a good thing. And so you can flip that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would just say, don't miss out on your future because of your past.
Donna Martin:Yeah. That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so really really work through it. So I'm gonna be praying for you, Alyssa, but you don't have to get married. But let me encourage you, as a Christian, don't have sex. Sex is something that's reserved for marriage. Really work on emotional intimacy and spiritual intimacy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then when you're ready, let's make the covenant. Because the Bible says that when you have sex with a person, the two become one flesh. So there's a union there that we don't fully understand. But we we want we don't wanna share ourselves with with, you know, more than one. And I realize a lot of our listeners, that's not been your experience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. So let's stop this sinning. We can't we can't change the past, but we can change our present, and in that, change our future. So, Alyssa, praying for you.
Donna Martin:So good. Thank you. Thank you, Alyssa. That was great. I know that helped a lot of people.
Donna Martin:Okay. Next, Darla from Nevada. She says, I've experienced religious trauma. How do I reconcile religious trauma caused by others or leaders of the church while also trying to find a relationship with Jesus?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Darla, man, when I saw your question, my heart just really went out to you and I'm I'm so sorry. So the first thing I wanna share with you is it was religious people who put Jesus on the cross. I think one of the hardest things about being a megachurch pastor is I don't get a lot of negative feedback from super liberal people, from the LGBTQ plus community, I get it from other churches. They all say I'm compromising, you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You guys put up a post, I think two weeks ago, and some guy said, I'm just glad my pastor preaches out of the Bible. And I I I don't know if you guys saw it, but I typed, I said, praise God for that. Because I want pastors everywhere But to preach out of the the assumption is because they saw, I don't know, a twenty second clip or a thirty second clip that that somehow, you know, I'm not reading the scriptures. And I believe a preacher's job is not to read the scriptures, it's to teach them. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and to do that, we have to address people where they are in their current situations. And Jesus didn't teach through the old testament. He talked about fields and grass and and the hairs on your head and the and the and the doves in the field. Right? He he took current issues to teach people spiritual truths.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I do is I I I preach out of the bible, but I tell a lot of stories. That's what a parable is. Mhmm. It's a story to capture people's opinions. And so so I'm sorry, Darla, for this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just remember, church people are broken people. And I've had I've been hurt by, let's call it 20 people in the history of Sandals Church. Now that's a lot of trauma. Mhmm. I've been blessed by, let's call it, a 100,000.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So what we tend to do is we focus on the people that hurt us and allow them to rob us from the people that wanna bless us. And, you know, I shared this story this weekend at church where, you know, Tammy and I put on our credit card to buy a sound system, the first sound system at Sandals Church, and the guy, you know, he dropped off like three used microphones and an amp. You know, he ripped us off.
Donna Martin:Oh, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so how do I get over that? I I've been so blessed. The the blessings that the Lord has given me far outweigh the $3,500 that got stolen from me. But there are some people that that event becomes so traumatic, and they're so focused on never trusting again, never never believing the best in people, it robs themselves from great people that God wants to bless you with. And so I would just say, Darla, that the way you reconcile it is you remind yourself that Jesus Christ died on a bloody cross for religious people too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And by the way, those are the ones that put them on there. And, you know, church leaders are broken and sometimes more broken than the world. Yeah. And so when you read Corinthians, the apostle Paul says, you were doing things in your church family. This is first Corinthians Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That the world thinks is weird.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's in the Bible. And so we we just have to own that, okay, you know, people people are gonna do things. And so we gotta work through that and know that I can't let that keep me from Jesus. And so I I told this story in my book. I was physically abused by a youth pastor in Sacramento.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when I say physically, mean, he he beat me up. This guy was a rage aholic, super popular guy, but ended up choking me unconscious. And then when I woke up, yeah, he was on top of me. And this happened in front of 30 of my friends at church. And I really got mad at God and I got mad at the church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was at college and my mom sent me a care package, but I you know, UPS, I had missed it. So I had to go to UPS place to pick it up. And the guy behind the counter was a jerk. And I later realized he reminded me of the youth pastor. And I remember this UPS worker, what can Brown do for you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? He goes, do you want the package or not? He was such a jerk. And I said, yeah, because it's mine. And I heard the Lord say, do you want me or not?
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I got in the car and I remember crying, that's when I went to church. I went back to church. Because Jesus is mine and I'm his. And I can't let people keep me from what's mine. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and yeah, there are terrible people, for every terrible person, there's a thousand wonderful people in the church, good people in the church. And and you know, you and Deebo have experienced church hurt. And I think anybody that's truly been in the church. Now if you just attend
Donna Martin:Right. No,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:nothing's You're going not gonna get church hurt. But if you are really in the church, you're going to experience that. But here's the crazy thing, Darla, there are people that attend to other churches and guess who their drama is and trauma? Me. And I tried.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've tried not to hurt people. I've tried to be good to people, but I tell you what, man, it's a whole lot easier, Darla, to be wounded than it is to be healed. And so I would encourage you, the people that I've challenged have chosen to be wounded rather than to be healed. That doesn't mean that I couldn't have said things better or done things better. Of course I could.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, every time I'm in an argument with my wife, I never walk away. You know what? I was a 100% right. I don't think that's a healthy perspective. I I need to say, okay, how can I love her more?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's how I view the church. When I offend her, when I hurt her, a person in the church, I say, okay, what can I learn? Mhmm. How can I grow from this? Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, because my security is in Christ, not from me getting it right. So what would you say to to Darla?
Donna Martin:I mean, if you are, like you said, involved in church in any way, you know, this is a family and sometimes family members hurt each other. And, you know, I walked away out of a season of church hurt, and it didn't it didn't pull me away from Jesus, because that he's like, that's my ride or die.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? Yeah. Don't hear that.
Donna Martin:Like, so for me, I didn't have that issue, but I really did have an issue with the church. And I was like, God, love your church, but I don't like her
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Donna Martin:Like, right now. And I know I am her, but I don't like her right now. And, you know, the thing that hurt me, God used to heal me. And I've told you over and over, you know, I we came to I came to Sandals Church skeptical and reluctant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Chris,
Donna Martin:our campus pastor, he knew who I was, and he allowed me to sit in the back of our church for a year and say nothing and do nothing. And it was the people of God that restored my heart and my faith in the church. And it was the people of God who loved me, not just for what I could offer, who I was, or what I could do, but just loved me because I was Donna. Mhmm. And so I have said over this is our October is like our fifth year sandalversary, if you can believe that, where I was so broken and so hurt.
Donna Martin:This place has been such a place of healing and restoration for us, and for both of us. And so I just wanna encourage you, like, know the church, religious people, it can be, Darla, it can be rough, but man, God will use the body of Christ. Like you said, for every one, there's a thousand beautiful beautiful Mhmm. Members of the body of Christ, and God will use that to restore you. And so and that's what he did Yeah.
Donna Martin:With me. And, you know, if you jump in with your whole heart, and I'm I'm all in again. Right? And I'm like, okay. Well, there's this potential when you love hard to be hurt deeply.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Donna Martin:And but it's okay because he's worth it. Like, Jesus is worth it. Mhmm. He's worth all of my anything that has ever happened to me pales in comparison to what he did for me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so Darla, I would choose I would always choose a church where the pastor's quick to apologize. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This last week, I hurt one of my daughters and she in a text confronted me and said, hey, you said this. This really hurt my feelings. Yeah. And I'm not proud of what I said or what I did, but what I am proud of is I said immediately, you're right and I should've I shouldn't have said that. Please forgive me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And I think that's so important to me. Probably the most powerful moment of my life growing up in church was my dad and I got into it when I was a teenager. And he was the pastor and we went to church. Now, here's the truth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't remember if he sinned against me or not. Yeah. Because you know, like our memories as kids I mean, whose truth is truth? My parents or what I remember? I mean, the truth is, I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, all of our versions of reality are shaded by our emotion and our condition at the time. So I don't know if my dad sinned against me. I do know that he didn't just come at me for no reason, I was a teenager. So I did something. But I'm sitting in church and my dad said from the pulpit, I cannot preach this sermon until I make it right with my son.
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Please forgive me. That, I can't remember one sermon my dad preached. I remember that one.
Donna Martin:Yeah, of course.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and again, I think as leaders, you know, what's Wounded Healer, who wrote that? They'll Google it in a second. It's
Donna Martin:Oh, I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Henry was gonna say Nauen. Nauen. Henry Nauen's Wounded Healer. Find find a doctor who knows he's
Donna Martin:sick. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Find a pastor who knows he's a sinner. Mhmm. And too oftentimes, though, what what we like, right, is the pastor who tells us exactly how it is. And they've got it all figured out. Those guys make me nervous.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Because what's going on? And I meet a lot of these very famous people that you guys know and you buy their books, and they're flawed people.
Donna Martin:All
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:of us are flawed people. So give me the pastor that's desperately clinging to the cross, and doesn't tell me stories about how they sinned when before they came to Christ.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because let me tell you something, I have sinned every day since I've
Donna Martin:come to Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, show me that pastor. Because at the end, an imperfect pastor is pointing us to Jesus. A perfect pastor is pointing to himself. And so a lot of these churches get cultish
Donna Martin:Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And become, you know, I'm very aware that people say, oh, Sandals is a cult of personality. Okay. Every church is a cult of personality to some even small churches are are, you know and I don't mean cultish like doctrinal error. I just mean, you kinda gather around a personality. And so Paul tells Timothy, watch your life and doctrine closely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here's what most churches do. They watch their doctrine. They're not watching their life. You gotta you gotta watch both. Because, you know, how how have I not had an affair, blown up my life, been in the news?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I've learned to watch my life, not just my doctrine. It's not just what I believe, it's how I behave
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That matters. And so choose pastors that are humble. And unfortunately, the ones that gravitate to the top, like all leaders, you know, it's usually not the humble ones that we promote. And, you know, and Matt Brown, young Matt Brown wasn't wasn't humble, but but God has humiliated me Mhmm. Many times to bring me to the place where I need to be.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'll be praying for you, Darla.
Donna Martin:Wonderful. Thank you. Okay. Mikaela from Riverside. This past year has been crazy in regards to my parents' marriage and they are finally living separately.
Donna Martin:Unfortunately, this has been the goal for me, to see my parents finally call quits on their marriage. I feel convicted that I should actually pray for their marriage so that it can be restored, because if I'm not praying for their marriage, then who will? I know God can do miracles, I'm no stranger to that, but even if I get into the space to pray for a miracle, I know that I do not want it to happen due to the hurt I feel from both of my parents. Does God still work in these types of prayers where our heart posture posture is not a 100% on board? What a great question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Michaela, man, thank you so much. And I'm so sorry that your parents are going through what they're going through. I think one of the great pains of adulthood is realizing how broken your folks are. Oh, absolutely. And I got good parents.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But everybody's a sinner. That's why I tell my kids counseling's always on me because you were raised by me.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, I was just unaware of so many of my flaws. Deeply unaware of of just some things that were broken in me. And that's why the vision of Real West Self is so important. And it's why we need people that we love Mhmm. Who can help us see our blind spots.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can God answer a prayer that we don't mean? I guess what she's saying. Right?
Donna Martin:That's a good question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yes. Because he's good.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, a couple of years ago, I had a church leader that really hurt me here. And I call him Voltron. You remember this sermon? And and so I shared this with the church. I said, Lord, help me forgive Voltron the way you've forgiven me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. Help me to love Voltron the way that you love me and help me to mean this prayer.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I and I prayed that. And it probably took Mikayla a year Mhmm. For me to to mean that. I felt betrayed by this leader. I felt publicly shamed and called out by this leader.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we had people leave this church believing what this person said about me. There are still people in my community that believe Wow. That I mistreated this person. But man, I I said I had to pray through that. And I believe ultimately, the Lord has blessed this leader.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're serving the Lord, and I think they're doing great things. You know, I don't want them in my life because I think boundaries are healthy, but I want them to do God's will. And I think they're doing that. So yes, I think God can answer that. But I think you need to end with, Lord, help me to believe this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Because here's what you want, Makayla, is you want you want peace and and here's what you you think that divorce is gonna bring peace. Let me. Divorce does not bring peace. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If two people can't get along in marriage, they don't usually get along in divorce. It's usually worse. You know, was just at a wedding two weeks ago where the the mom and dad do not speak.
Donna Martin:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here they are at the wedding with their kid. And the man that's, you know, it should be a great occasion and it's just awkward. Yeah. And so I they handled it, I think, good, but I I was praying for the bride because it's not her sin. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, this is her moment. But what I would just say is, you know, yes, the Lord can bring reconciliation. Here's the thing. The Lord does not force people to change. Like, I can't pray and ask God to change Donna's mind.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here's what I can pray. If there are demonic forces around Donna Yeah. I ask the Lord to take them away. If there are voices influencing Donna, I ask them to take them away. I ask the Lord to get alone with Donna so that Donna can make the decision.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So we don't, you know Right. We can't God is not in the business of forcing himself on others. God is love. Love never forces itself.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Donna must respond, I must respond. And that's the hard thing with relatives and people that we love, is they can reject God. Your mom and dad are rejecting each other. And so what I would just say is, you know, just be honest, God, I don't even know if you're gonna answer this prayer. I would say that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's what I feel led to pray. Mhmm. You know, follow your intuition as a believer, because that's the Holy Spirit. Right? The Holy Spirit speaking to you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Holy you know, a non Christian would say, follow your gut. What I would say is the Holy Spirit is speaking to you, and if you feel led to pray, which is why you sent this Absolutely. Question follow that and say, God, help me to mean this. Help me to mean this. So what do you think?
Donna Martin:Very good. Yeah. I was gonna say that that, you know, if you're feeling convicted to pray Mhmm. You should pray and and leave the outcome to the Lord. I mean, there's there's there's no the best thing that you can do is pray.
Donna Martin:You can't manipulate, like you said, we can't change people, that's witchcraft. That
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We're not
Donna Martin:doing that. Exactly. Right? We leave the outcome to the Lord and but there's it's never a wasted opportunity when you pray. And so, if that gets you Mhmm.
Donna Martin:Closer to the Lord, so he's healing your heart from it looks like this was you said you were angry, think you said, regards this has been goal to see my I forget. Maybe you didn't say that you were angry, but it sounds like there's some hurt and trauma that you have from your parents' marriage as well as you're wanting to see them separated.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, she said, I know that I do not want it to happen due to the hurt I feel from both
Donna Martin:my parents. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And let me everyone getting divorced out there, listen to me. Yeah. Stop the crap. Stop telling me it doesn't affect kids. It affects kids every single time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the best thing for you to do for your kids is to humble yourselves and work it out. Mhmm. And so I wish that more Christians
Donna Martin:Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, would do that and too often times, they don't. Yeah. So let me say this, you know, here's really the prayer, Mikayla, I want you to pray. Lord, help me to trust you no matter the outcome.
Donna Martin:Yeah. That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's and that's the hard prayer because really, you've been disappointed by your parents and you're afraid you're gonna be disappointed by your father in heaven. Mhmm. And God is not the problem. You know, your your mom and dad right now are, and you gotta love them because they're broken and and not let it change your heart. It's easy to get jaded as Christians.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, loving difficult people is what makes us Christian. Loving great people is what makes you human. You know, that's that's what it is. So great question.
Donna Martin:Great. Thank you so much, Mikayla. We really appreciate it. Thanks for checking out this episode. You sorry.
Donna Martin:I'm gonna say that again. Yeah. Thanks for checking out this episode. You can always submit your questions to the podcast anytime by going to move.sc/ask, or you can submit on the church app and we'll see you next time. Bye.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Bye, guys.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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