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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (00:06)
Hey, friends, long time no see. Welcome to The Marketing B-Sides. I'm your host, Tom Hootman. This is the podcast where we're all marketers. And none of us pretend to have it figured out. It's been a bit since we chatted. And I I'm kind of in this like, pinch point of I don't have guests for guests sake.
But I like having guests. I also hate looking for guests. And some of you are shy. Stop being shy. it's like a pretty honest conversation. They're fun and easy to have. It's like 47 minutes of your time. And I will guide you like a Sherpa to the top of The Marketing B-Sides mountain.
So you don't have to do anything but show up and be yourself. because I don't want have guests for guests sake, I'm having a special guest today. Today, my friends, is the legendary drummer from the band Murder by Death, among others, and my good friend, Dagan Thogerson Dagan I've known him forever, We're both from South Bend, Indiana.
And there's like a great little foray about some of the shitty biker bars in South Bend, Indiana and playing in them. in this episode, we talk a lot about what I love about this podcast. The reason I want to do this is because I think there's so many, there's so many unique things to everyone's profession that are, but there's also so many similarities between professions that you think as a marketer, you're the only person living in a zoom all day.
We talk about being a session musician and working remote and what a pain in the ass how it's a fine But it's also doesn't match playing in a room with people We talked about his career. I mean spanning Metal into punk moving to Bloomington And then going on tour playing like I think over 2,000 shows somewhere around there and for the last
I want to say over 15 years, he's been the drummer in Murder by Death, which is a fantastic band. I've seen them several times live. They're amazing. Really, really wonderful conversation. One of the coolest things we talk about is, the philosophy of how to make
how to make an impression and get work in the music industry. And Dagan does a great job talking about how you have to be good, number one, but I'll call it the good hang philosophy that he goes into. I love it. It's really, really great. Just a wonderful conversation with an old friend who makes some incredible music, just joined a new band, Orbit 17. He's got a bunch of music out there. Check him out.
Anyway, enjoy the show. Thanks for stopping by.
Tom Hootman (02:30)
I always start with this question.
If your career had a two to three song playlist, what songs would you include?
Dagan Thogerson (02:36)
Yeah, the three song playlist of my career.
I did give it thought and I was kind of stumped. When I got really, really serious about drumming, real serious about it, I was listening to lot of metal and progressive metal and Tool and stuff. And I was going to college for percussion performance in South Bend and listening to that Tool record, Anima, that came out in 1996 constantly. It's great album, especially it's a drummer's album. I think everybody...
Tom Hootman (03:00)
huh, it's great album.
Dagan Thogerson (03:05)
Music people love that record. It's a great bass player's record, too. It's a great metal album, but drummers specifically. Yeah, and like the song, the very last track on that record, Third Eye, it's like a 14 minute long song, very musical drum parts. I geeked out on that, yeah, I I geeked out on that record and that song for years. I went down a rabbit hole, I think I was, the first time I used the internet was when I was in college in the 90s.
Tom Hootman (03:17)
Very Maynard.
Dagan Thogerson (03:27)
and had my .edu email address and was on text only forums talking about Tool with other Tool nerds on early internet users. But with early internet users in 1998. that would probably be song number one. just anything off of that first Tool record. And then as I got into my 20s when I moved into Bloomington,
Tom Hootman (03:40)
I'm number one.
Dagan Thogerson (03:50)
sort of discovered punk rock and started playing in punk bands and touring and really got into the Ramones, got into Screeching Weasel and the Mopes and like stuff that Danny Vapid does, the bass player for Screeching Weasel, he's got the Methadones, the Mopes, the Riverdale's. So how about, how about My Heart Don't Bleed For You by the Mopes? That can be track number two. It's a, that's the first song off of the Accident Waiting to Happen EP. Just good.
by the numbers like Beaten Potatoes, Punk Rock, Melodic, Poppy, two minute long songs. Yeah. And like punk stuff and like heavy stuff sort of carried me for my first six, seven years in Bloomington playing in a billion bands around town and getting on the road when I could. Then I joined MBD and joined a band full of people who loved The Cure and Nick Cave and
Tom Hootman (04:17)
I'm say two minutes, right? Yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (04:38)
The Misfits even, Sarah's a big Misfits fan and I, yeah, huge Misfits fan, loves that band. And so I joined that band and so my world kind of opened up in a different direction when I heard like Nick Cave album, Let Love In. You know, so the song Let Love In or like Red Right Hand, that's another one, it's a big one. Oh, I think so, yeah, Red Right Hand was like used on some TV shows and I mean, oh, that's it, yeah, yeah.
Tom Hootman (04:40)
Really?
Yeah, very popular. Might be one of his most popular. Yeah, Peaky Blinders. Yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (05:03)
It's just got that super catchy like pump organ refrain. And then when it goes like, bum, bum, bum, it gets all spooky. like it's, I always think of Nick Cave like holding like a black cloak in front of his face like Dracula and like looking over his arm with big eyeballs.
Tom Hootman (05:25)
He's probably holding a black cloak over his face as we speak right now.
Dagan Thogerson (05:29)
Right
now, yeah, right now. Going, bleh.
Tom Hootman (05:31)
I'm Nick Cave.
It's interesting because we're Murder by Death fans. I'm seeing you play a few times. You can definitely hear the Nick Cave influence throughout the band. Misfits is a curveball. You don't hear the Misfits influence in there as much for me at least.
Dagan Thogerson (05:39)
Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah.
⁓
you... we did cover a Misfits song on one of the cover records we did some years ago. We covered Some Kind of Love, or Some Kind of Hate. Some Kind of Love, Some Kind of Hate. And our version is heavy and fast, but it's also kind of cute, because there's like pizzicato cello in it. Yeah, I fucking love dancing. But Nick Cave for sure.
Tom Hootman (06:00)
Mm-hmm.
So
I'm interested because the very similar path, maybe it's like that late Gen X, like we start on metal, some form of metal, and then evolves into punk. And then from punk, turns into like what, like you've kind of follows similar trajectories, right? like, mine was more like, like I loved metal. I didn't get into Tool until later. Like Undertow, I was in, I loved Undertow. I still like Undertow as a better album, but.
Dagan Thogerson (06:24)
Yeah. Sure.
Tom Hootman (06:28)
For me, it was like hair metal, like Clay and I, right? Shout out Clay. Came from that hair metal background. And then I picked into, I got into punk and then I had older friends who ran around in Bloomington. And when I started coming here and I was in the college town environment, it was like REM and Elvis Costello. like, just like, it was like pretentious college rock, but like, at least you got to hear like Elvis Costello and REM, which like, we saw my, yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (06:31)
Cool, yeah. Uh-huh. Okay, I'm took live.
Yeah, sure, sure.
.
Yeah, and it's their intelligent
songs too. mean, it's pretentious, but they are smart dudes and talented artists, even if they might be like kind of up their own butt or whatever sometimes.
Tom Hootman (07:02)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you started, I did some pre-work on it. You started playing drums when you were 14. You got your first set at 14, joined a band at 16. At 16, what does 16 year old Dagan think the future look like? How early was that? You were like, this is what I'm gonna fucking do.
Dagan Thogerson (07:08)
Yeah.
It's funny because I think that I knew that I wanted to do it since I was like seven or eight years old. And like I, it just took that long to sort of convince my parents that I wasn't just like, was it a passive fancy or whatever. They finally got me like, you know, crummy little drum set for Christmas. It's technically I was 14. It was like Christmas is three weeks before my birthday or something like that. Three weeks, I think. So I got my drum set three weeks later, turned 15.
A after that, I was in a band with like my 18 year old friend who I went to high school with. He was a senior. I was like a sophomore. And then like his older brother and his older brother's friend. So it was like, I'm 16 and like next dude is 18, then like 26 and 27 years old, the other guy's in the band. So I'm in a band at 16 with dude who are 10 years older than me. And we're playing like cover tunes, the stuff that was on the radio in South Bend in the 90s.
like we're covering like Pearl Jam and live and kinda or the bear or whatever like yeah. And then also like sprinkling in our own like original tunes. But I was just like, I was doing that and I was like, this is fun. I'm playing gigs and I'm playing in front of people going to bars and I'm young and I know that I'm young and I'm in a bar and that's weird but it's cool. Cause I feel like I'm like breaking the rules or whatever. And even then.
Tom Hootman (08:07)
whatever's on Zip 104 or U-93. The bear, W-A-O-R, yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (08:30)
I felt like, I remember one time I was grounded. My mom had grounded me and I had band practice and she's like, you're not going to band practice, you're grounded. And I'm like, mom, that's work. Like band practice is work. It's not like, like I'm serious about this. I want to do this. So like, I need to go to band practice. And she like, convinced her, she let me go to band practice. You know, I thought it was.
Tom Hootman (08:49)
It's a good argument, right? Also, like, that's
telling right there. was like, when you're like, no, like, this is my job. This is what I do. This is work. I have to go do this. This is not, it's fun, but it's also like.
Dagan Thogerson (08:57)
Yeah, I mean, it is fun,
but I was, was, you know, there was a small amount of bullshit in there with me. I knew that, I knew I probably shouldn't be allowed to go to band practice if I'm grounded. Like I knew I was kind of like pulling like a little Eddie Haskell thing, but mom, you know, like, but at the same time I was, I wasn't completely unserious you know.
Tom Hootman (09:13)
⁓ did you ever take lessons? Like how long did you play before you took formal lessons and like decided on like, okay, I got to get formal about this.
Dagan Thogerson (09:20)
Yeah, man, I took lessons right when I got my drums. I started taking lessons from Eddie Knight and Soft Bend like the first year that I had my drum set. I was with him for a year and then I stopped and then I took lessons for a year in college when I was 19, so 1998. And then I didn't take another lesson until about three or four years ago.
And for the last three or four years, I've been taking lessons sort of like sporadically when I have time, I find a teacher that I think is interesting. But I haven't had like a standing lesson since I was a teenager. just like, take them, usually I'll go to a teacher and like, I'll get a big chunk of stuff to work on. And I'm like, thank you. Maybe I'll go for a few weeks. And I'm like, this is great. You've given me a lot to like work on and I'll work on that. And that's kind of how I approach lessons now, but I do, I do enjoy them. I think they're very valuable.
Tom Hootman (10:06)
It's almost like a bite-sized mentorship, more than a lesson. Do you find someone who does something that you're like, that's really cool, they're really great, I wanna learn how they do that. And then you can deep dive into something, one core element that you wanna master, get all the work, go work on it, and then go back when you wanna learn something new.
Dagan Thogerson (10:17)
Mm-hmm.
Do it.
Right.
Right. That's how I think when I'm thinking about it now and I think about like when you're new on the instrument, you learn and you improve really quickly for a while if you practice, if you take lessons, because there's so much stuff you don't know how to do. So you're like, you're getting your fundamentals. There's a lot of stuff that you can keep busy with. But when you're playing for a long time, it's like you know a lot of stuff and the things that you don't know, there are less, but they're out there and you got to find them.
they often will be like, maybe harder to do, more advanced. like you get a concept and you like, have to work on it for a while. So going back week after week, just when I get a new concept, I like to like hunker down and come out in the garage and like chip away at it for a long time.
Tom Hootman (11:01)
Is that something a lot of drummers do or very few drummers do?
Dagan Thogerson (11:04)
Good question. don't really I probably not a lot. I there are drummers out there expect me there are drummers there are social media drummers who are fucking monster players You just make videos of them like crushing and fucking doing crazy shit. You're like, wow, how are you? How are you doing that? But like a lot of those dudes like maybe don't play gigs they just go out there and work on chops or whatever
And also, like, there are a lot of people out there who call themselves teachers, but they're like giving you bad information. like, I don't know, I don't know how much how people approach. I know that like I, I seek out good teachers. And that's what I get in contact with. And the way I sort of the way that I sort of try to figure that out is
when they if they're not busy telling me how good of a teacher they are i'm like that's a good that's a good start that's a good first sign you know yeah right and
Tom Hootman (11:53)
It's a good first step. I,
yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (11:56)
And if they have experience. think I really, don't want to, I want to learn from people who have been out, who've been doing it for a long time, who played a lot of shows, who have a lot of experience in the industry. That's the kind of stuff that I, that's the kind of person I want to listen to because I can spot people who haven't, who don't have experience, I can spot them a mile away. And it's like, I hope you don't do your thing, but it's not for me.
Tom Hootman (12:14)
Yeah, I think that's, mean, honestly, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, maybe a little bit, but that's admirable because you've played a ton of shows, you play on some big stages. And like the fact that you're like, I'm still a student, I still want to learn, I still want to work with people who don't have fucking egos and aren't like, I'm the teacher, you're the student. Like someone who's like 100 % like wants to just like, hey, like, yeah, I can help you figure that out. That's fucking awesome.
Dagan Thogerson (12:28)
percent.
Mm-hmm.
That's the way it's gotta be, dude. Especially if you want to have longevity. It's like you gotta be willing to listen. You gotta be willing to listen to people.
Tom Hootman (12:39)
⁓
Yeah, it's funny because I've been down that rabbit hole. The algorithm on Instagram shows me the people just like social media drummers, social media guitar players, like people just shredding. And I love it. I think it's, I think it's great. It's a medium that didn't exist because you can like, you can be a social media drummer, social media guitar player and like just shred and have a following and not have to gig. That's not your thing. And I think about before the internet, those are people who were like probably just like giving lessons and playing along in the basement and like around their core friends and didn't have an audience before. It's like different.
Dagan Thogerson (12:52)
Yeah, cool. It's impressive. It's great. It's fun.
Tom Hootman (13:13)
It's a different medium.
Dagan Thogerson (13:13)
Yeah, it's
legit. People get something out of it. People love to watch it and see people be excellent at something. Like, fuck yeah, man. I love that shit. Watching somebody shred, I'm like, that's good. That's good. That's cool that you can do that. I'm done.
Tom Hootman (13:24)
⁓ Yeah, lately, I bet there's a
guy on Instagram who does he plays all the parts bass, rhythm lead for all of like the Appetite for Destruction albums side by side. For someone like me who just listens to it. It's fascinating to see the like the Izzy and like slash parts. Yeah, the structure and how they come together at like for the chorus. It's fucking fascinating.
Dagan Thogerson (13:39)
What Slasher doing? Yeah, yeah. Sure, yeah. It's
awesome. Guns N' Roses is a great band for that. Another great band for that is Blind Melon, the two guitar players in that band. Always playing vastly different parts that complement each other really well. I love that shit. I love being in a six-piece band.
Whenever we write, have to very meticulously consider who's playing right now, who's not playing right now, because we can't all play all the time because there's too many of us and it just becomes chaos. You have to really consider what works here and what doesn't work here, what works together, what works separate. I think it's fascinating too. I'm agreeing with you.
Tom Hootman (14:15)
Yeah.
I think it makes better music because I think when you can all come then when you all do come together for like a chorus, it's like, pow, it's like so much more impactful pops. So you, we kind of got off this track on the lessons of not whatnot, but like, was this first moment that you were like, you're gigging out, you're playing the bands, you're joining bands, you come down here to Bloomington, you're kind of like doing your thing and you're always going to do it. But where is this moment where you were like, wow, this is a real thing now.
Dagan Thogerson (14:20)
It matters. It pops.
Sorry.
Tom Hootman (14:39)
Was it Murder by Death?
Dagan Thogerson (14:40)
yeah,
it was. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a pretty easy one to answer because it was, it was such a profound thing. Like, it's all I, all I wanted to do, especially after getting down to Bloomington and there were bands that were, ⁓ they were just touring all the time, which was something that like in South Bend, there weren't bands that were going on tour. You know, like there was like a, there was a, like a, like a DIY punk scene and there was like one punk band that did a national tour once. And it was like big news and it was awesome. Good for them. And I'm friends with those dudes.
I got to Bloomington and was like everybody was going on tour. You know, like the Coke Dares would go out for a month. The Impossible Shapes would go out. John Wilkes Boos would go out. was tons of like just cool college indie bands. And sort of a side note, when I moved to Bloomington and several years leading up to, I moved to Bloomington in 2000 and like several years leading up to then Bloomington was sort of like people were looking at it as like the next sort of Seattle kind of town. It was just like there was a lot of cool
College music coming out of there is kind of a hotspot for music. So lucky for people like me and for people like you who love music and lived there at the time, it was a cool, fun place to be. And you really got a lot of good examples and a lot of good motivation because it's possible to go be on the road and have people hear your band. So I was living in Bloomington watching these bands go on tour and I was like, I want to go on tour so fucking bad. That's what I want to do.
I started doing it. I went on my first tour in 2003 and I toured every year. I've toured every single year since 2003 up to now. In some form or another, be it like two two-week tours in a year or like 150 shows in a year, like and everywhere in between. But like when I was friends with Matt, the founding bass player in Murder By Death for years, three or four years, and we always were good friends. had a similar taste in music. We were homies and like I would always be like
I just, just let me be in your band. Let me be your drummer. Like, I should be in this band. Like, who is this dude you got drumming? And he's like, dude, he's our guy. Like, we can't really just do that. And then, then when he asked me, you know, four years into our friendship, he like, at a party. took me outside. He's like, hey man, things aren't working with the other guy. Like, you want to be in this band with me, with us? And I was like, I do. And like that, you know, and I was like, oh my God, in a month and a half, I'm going to go on tour for five months. Like that's different. You know what I mean?
Tom Hootman (16:23)
Thank you.
That's the dream. Did you have to like, was there like a formal audition process? mean, did you know everyone in the band? you go in obviously and like.
Dagan Thogerson (16:46)
So yeah, that's it. Yeah, the dream.
I knew everyone in the band. wasn't super close with the rest of the folks. Bloomin's not big. We had a lot of the same friends in the same friend circle.
I was their first call for that gig because they were just like, well, let's call Dagan. We know him. We know that he can play or whatever. And Adam just gave me a handful of CDs and a big list. like, these are the songs that we do every night. Just learn these 10 songs and we'll start there. And so I learned the 10 songs and I went in and played with them for a crack. It was an audition, but it was like we played the songs. And when we were done, Adam was like, if that was a show, I would have been happy with that. So you want to do this? And I was like, yeah, I do.
Tom Hootman (17:11)
Yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (17:28)
So yeah, audition, but it was still pretty, pretty laid back. I was nervous, but it worked out. No kidding.
Tom Hootman (17:32)
The rest is history.
everywhere from two weeks of touring to 150 dates, how many shows do you think you've put? Thousands of shows then. Thousands of shows.
Dagan Thogerson (17:42)
I think
with Murder by Death I've played, I think I've played 15 or 1600 and the rest of my music career, I think I'm little over 2,000 shows in my life, think. Maybe somewhere around there if I had to guess. It's a lot.
Tom Hootman (17:56)
It's a couple shows. What stands out as the worst gig you've ever played? could probably be Murder by Death or any show. Just a gig that you will never forget. What the fuck was that?
Dagan Thogerson (18:04)
Okay
man yeah so many there's a lot like it's funny because i immediately thought when this question came out i immediately thought of this gig that i played when i was 16 where i was in that well by the way that band was called Spicy Funkenstein my first band like the worst yeah the funniest worst band name ever but like we like the dudes the brothers in the band their their old man their dad ⁓ was like a South Bend like motorcycle guy like a biker dude right like kind of rough
Tom Hootman (18:20)
Spicy Funkinstein
Dagan Thogerson (18:32)
kind of character, nice dude, like drunk, played harmonica, would like come down in the basement, we were practicing and just pick up a mic and start blowing a harp with us or whatever. But like, so some of the gigs that we played, we got through their dad's buddies. We would play like shitty biker road houses and stuff on like the west side of South Bend. And we played a gig out there one night and like this big burly bouncer guy was just being mean to this little dude who was just like nicely watching the band and...
Just kind of harassing him all night and getting, like the big bouncer dude was just getting drunker and drunker and drunker even though he's the security guy. He's like the drunkest dude in the room. And ends up throwing this dude on the floor and putting his finger in his face and saying he's gonna beat this dude to death or something. And it scared the shit out of me. I'm like 16 playing drums in a bar and this giant dude is about to beat the crap out of this little guy who seemed really nice. And it fucked with me.
And know, like really, I was like, I don't want to be like that. don't want to play shows. I don't want to play music for people like this guy. I remember that sucks. I went and like talked to my girlfriend about it. Like, I can't believe this happened.
Tom Hootman (19:33)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
God damn fucking South Bend. We used to play at an open mic night at a place called Cheers in South Bend. Yeah, Cheers, we played there a few times and it was always, God, why are we doing this? It was like the only play, they had an open mic night and you could just go play. And it was a decent, because people were just, but people were in there to get shit faced. They were not there to see it, but hammered. And it was like,
Dagan Thogerson (19:42)
yeah. Wait, you did? Yeah, cool.
Yeah, yeah. Cheers. Yeah, they got hammered up in Roseland. I remember
Cheers. played there.
Tom Hootman (20:00)
Roseland
yep, and you would like back when you would open the newspaper and be like you'd see like fuck six fights and like cops just like always getting called there it was like almost like a road Roadhouse type environment and I was like 17 playing and I remember being like I'm scared out of my fucking wits like I know I don't want to be here Give me the fuck out of here. What are we doing? This is horrible. It's like just a bunch of like skinny like college-aged kids playing like REM covers in front of
Dagan Thogerson (20:12)
Yeah.
You
Yeah, dude.
Right.
And then the locals, like these rough ass local fucking drunks.
Tom Hootman (20:32)
Good no, thank you. ⁓ So You've had a lot of you've had a lot of shows What's like being on tour? What's like the one thing that something you wish more people understood about being on tour? Because I think of it that a lot of people like think I people glamorize like yeah, we get to go on tour That's pretty awesome. But then I see it and I'm like god, that's a fucking grind, right and I saw Michael Shannon. He does this great REM cover band and they played it. Yeah, they played in Bloomington
Dagan Thogerson (20:33)
Thanks.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is fun.
that's right. ⁓
Tom Hootman (20:57)
And Bobcat Goldthwait, great show, amazing show. He's so good. So cool. Bobcat Goldthwait was the opener, the comedian. Yeah, just did stand up, just did like a 15, 20 minutes. Just phenomenal. And he was, they had to delay it a night because they got caught in a snowstorm coming out of Wisconsin. And I was thinking in my head, I was like, Michael Shannon's just on the bus, just like driving from Madison. And they were talking about being stuck at, Bobcat Goldthwait was talking about being stuck at like a Best Western or somewhere.
Dagan Thogerson (20:57)
Was that a good show? Cool man. Michael Shannon's cool.
As a student stand up doing stand up. Was he good? Yeah, I love that dude.
Tom Hootman (21:25)
between here and Wisconsin and he was watching the Oscars and they made Michael Shannon come down. We had an Oscar party at like this Best Western or Comfort Inn or something. Because he's Oscar nominated twice, right? He could have gone to the Oscars and he's like hanging out in a hotel in the middle of nowhere. I don't know, road dogging it. like, is, very nice of him. Also, I thought it was very nice Michael Shannon, like there was like a couple mentions of like, hey, like.
Dagan Thogerson (21:34)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, fuckin' road doggin' it. That's nice that they gave him a little party. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (21:50)
actor here right like Michael Shannon like just plays it straight the whole night like just a dude front man doing his thing he's really really shy really quiet guy so anyway like something about touring that people misunderstand
Dagan Thogerson (21:56)
Sure, yeah. ⁓
Well, people think it's a big party, which it can be. And for our younger years, it was often just a big ass party. But that's not sustainable. I think people, maybe they don't appreciate the need for solitude when you're on tour. Especially when...
people are like, you're in their town and they're there to see you, but like, you don't want to see anybody because you've been, you know, crammed in a van with seven people every day for hours and hours a day. like, or in a green room or in a hotel, you're rooming with a roomie every night. People don't understand that, really, like all the socialization and all the being around people all the time can really sort of grind it down. they like, I people don't realize that like,
the people who are on tour like need space. You know, like, you should come over and have a cookout before the gig and then you can stay after the show. And it's like, dude, we're driving six hours today and we have to soundcheck, we have to have showers. I got to stretch. know what I mean? People want to do their thing. people always go on a walk. I got to go get dinner. Like, I'm not going to like come to your town and immediately start drinking beer at three in the afternoon.
Tom Hootman (22:55)
Bye!
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well because they've had it circled in their calendar for months, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (23:14)
for months, yeah, yeah, And like
no shade or anything, that's cool, they wanna hang and like it's awesome that people are excited to see you you come to their town, I love it. It's a great way to stay in touch with your friends. I've maintained relationships with people all over the country because of this career that otherwise I might not have maintained. I'm thankful for that, I love having friends everywhere, it's awesome. But yeah, I think maybe people don't realize that often any chance, when you're on tour, any chance that you get to have some time to yourself is very valuable.
Tom Hootman (23:42)
Yeah, you have to respect boundaries a bit. I mean, like it's the crammed together room, like sharing a room on the road. And you're right. Like even when I think about when it's a great way for us to have stayed in touch, cause you would come through Bloomington and play show like, we're going to go see Dagan. And at the same time, even, we're not patting ourselves in the back, but I remember we would all be like, we saw you at the Orbit Room, right? And not this tour last year, the tour before. And I remember like texting you or half texted you and was like, Hey, like if you've got a minute, by, but no biggie if not, because you also,
Dagan Thogerson (23:52)
Sure am.
Right.
Tom Hootman (24:09)
We would talk about it like, what's
Dagan Thogerson (24:10)
Perfect.
Tom Hootman (24:10)
he do before a show? He has to do sound check, he's got to stretch, he's got to get cleaned up. He probably wants to take like one minute not in a fucking bus or surrounded by somebody to like just decompress.
Dagan Thogerson (24:13)
You
Yeah, I walked around for 40 minutes and then I came and met you guys at your room. Like I was just walking. ⁓ Be by myself, probably called my wife. She was like, hey, I'm walking around Bloomington. It's kind of weird. I haven't been here in a while, you know? ⁓
Tom Hootman (24:25)
Yeah, just to like get some fresh air and like check out the town again.
That's more apartment complexes.
So like, you've had a hell of a career, you've had a hell of a career. Like for someone, do you meet people who want advice from you on like how to stand out or how to start a career what advice do you normally give someone like just say yes and play all the time? What is it like? mean, how do you, how do you get a name?
Dagan Thogerson (24:54)
Yeah,
I've gotten that question before. I've actually gotten that question more from my friends who have teenage kids. And they're like, hey, my kid has this interest in music or like my kid is going to Full Sail in Florida to be recording engineer, wants to be a front house sound person. And it's like, what do they have to do to get out there and get work? And it's...
Usually it's like, well, they're gonna have to do it for free for a while. And that sucks, but it's easier to do that when you're 19 and your life doesn't cost anything yet. And also like standing out, sure. I was sort of, love the mind of like at some point, if you wanna do something professionally, like you're expected to be able to play, you're expected to be able to like.
whatever the job is, if you want to do it for your career, you should be able to do it well. So that's kind of a, it should be kind of built in. First of all, you have to be good. You have to at least be good enough. But the really important part, more so than standing out, is how can you be good to be around and easy to work with? That's what gets you work, that's what keeps you busy, that's what keeps you on the road, is you need to be easy to work with. You have to like...
be reliable and to an extent predictable, responsible, accountable. People can't be worrying about you all the time because when you're in a situation where you're part of a team that's on the road, it's like if one thing falls apart, you've got all these people counting on you. They have to be able to count on you. So you've got to be a good hang, you've got to good to be around, you've to be reliable.
Tom Hootman (26:21)
Yep. It's interesting. So I, I've gotten the same question from marketing students coming through either the Media school or Kelley at IU. And it's, it's, it's different in that the expectation for them, I think, is that to, get a job and make real money now, like it, it's like, I've got this fucking expensive ass degree. My parents sent me to school or I'm paid to get through school.
and I gotta get a job now. they were always like, how do I break in? And how do I make introductions that aren't just like, hey, I wanna like work. And I was like, honestly, like, you're gonna get paid shit. And you're not gonna, you might even work for free. But if you just raise your hand and say yes, and you show up, and you show up on time, and you're accountable and reliable, work finds you, it really does. But it's this, it's...
Maybe not so much with your friends who have kids. Maybe it is, right? I wanna be a sound engineer. And you had this as well. You just want, I wanna go. You said it earlier, I wanna go on tour, dammit. Everyone's got that, especially when they're younger, about I wanna do this. And it's like, yeah, it's gonna suck for a while. You're gonna have to eat shit for a while. And then you wake up one day and you're like, fuck, I can't. There's opportunity everywhere. have to start telling people no. It's eventually what happens.
Dagan Thogerson (27:27)
Right.
Yeah, that's kind of the way it is. It's funny because going to college doesn't seem like so imperative as it was when we were kids, does it? Is that that accurate? Because I don't have a kid, so I'm not really sure. But specifically in the music world, it's like it seems like going to get a music degree is just putting yourself in crippling debt.
Tom Hootman (27:35)
Uh-uh. I would agree with that.
Dagan Thogerson (27:46)
That's kind of all it does for you. Anything you need to know to have a career music you can get from just doing music. reading, and getting experience, going and playing with people. Music is playing with people. Primarily, crux of it is getting with other people in a room or on a stage and entertaining.
Tom Hootman (27:56)
then you can apprentice your way through it, yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (28:09)
people and like you don't do that when you're in a classroom. Knowing theory and knowing how to read are very, I think they're very important. I think they're very useful. They're not necessarily obviously people making that argument forever. Like Paul McCartney, Miles Davis, know, Dennis Chambers, whatever like those dudes like don't read music. And so people are like, you don't need to read. And it's like, well, you're not Paul McCartney, you're not Miles Davis, you're not Dennis Chambers. Like reading music is helpful. And it's good because you can like
you can look at a page of music and play music written by somebody who's better at music than you. And so you can learn. And also it's just good for, it's just like a second, it's like a language to use when you're trying to collaborate as well. But it might, so going to school, learning how to read, learning theory, sure. But actually going get like a, like a performance degree or like a T, like an education degree, I don't know. It just seems like you better serve to just go and work.
Tom Hootman (28:59)
Yeah. I mean, if you're an opera singer, maybe go to, to Jacobs is great, but like, just depends to what type of music you do. And it's interesting, like the learning how to read. there's the same thing in business too. Like there are, there's so many entrepreneurs, like very successful, like Steve Jobs who like drop out and start a business. And that like, there was like that kind of like that wave. It's still going, I got some people like, you know, you, you see all the click bait shit where they're like, drop out of school. You don't need that. And it's like, Kelley, the Kelley School of
Dagan Thogerson (29:03)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Ha ha.
Tom Hootman (29:25)
of Business struggles with this because for years at IU, I think they sold the network, right? Like you're going to have a network of Kelley grads and you, you know, we stick together. It's like a fraternity of this degree. And now you don't need that. Like that becomes less imperative because it's like, it almost was like a leapfrog into who you know. And like, it's not so much that anymore. Like nepotism is nepotism wherever you go and yeah, it's who you know, but also like just do the work. And I think that there's a, it depends what field, right? Like you,
Dagan Thogerson (29:35)
Right.
Sure.
Tom Hootman (29:54)
to be a marketer or to be a finance person, like you probably should have a degree in finance, right? It's it's different. But at the same time, some of the smartest, sharpest people I know, we know, friends of ours, didn't like, were getting their degrees and bounced out and are wildly successful because they're just great at what they do. It's like, once you find what you want to do, just do it. And then that path kind of opens up for you, I think.
Dagan Thogerson (29:59)
Yeah.
Sure.
yeah. you know, that being said, plenty of people work really hard and doesn't always pay off, but like, it is the best way. I think the best and clearest path to success is to do the work and not try to find shortcuts, basically. Especially when a shortcut just ends you up in fucking 85 grand in debt or whatever. Like, fuck that shortcut. That's a bad shortcut.
Tom Hootman (30:35)
That's a very expensive
shortcut. What's something you believe in your like in your 20s about music or the business of music or success that you think is bullshit now?
Dagan Thogerson (30:43)
Oh man, that's funny. I remember as a young idealistic person, I thought that the idea of like treating your band like a business was just like the worst idea ever. I was like, you don't do that with art, man. You don't do that. That's crazy. And I was really, I don't know, like pretentious about like songwriting as anything more than like...
artistic expression, like catching the muse out of the sky. Like, I didn't look at I didn't look at music in the music industry and like writing music and creating art as like, as like, practical work that you can get better at the more that you do it. You know, like, like, the more you write songs, the better you get at songwriting, because songwriting is a craft, you know, and
and you sharpen your skills at it. And in my early 20s and my teens, I didn't think skill was involved with making art. I thought it was all the muse and all this sort of intangible. And that was just me being young and idealistic and stupid. after being so many years of doing it and watching, especially Adam write songs and writing music with Adam, and like...
Tom Hootman (31:34)
Yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (31:45)
seeing how much work it is and how you approach it from a very practical... that's the way that I prefer to work and have for years now. I approach it practically and I'm like, this part isn't working, why isn't it working? And I think about, well, because one instrument is playing triplets and the other instrument is playing eighth notes and they're bouncing off each other and it sounds messy. Or this chorus is too long, let's try it again shorter and listen to it like...
It's just, it's a lot of trial and error and a lot of it's actual work and not just like some like flaky, you know, bullshit, muse finding stuff. So probably that, there are, there are some people who just like, I just go where it takes me, you know, like why write? And I'm like, all right, I guess, like, I guess so. I mean, if it works for you, I guess that's right. But like, even when they say stuff like that, I'm like, you say that, but you're still working. Like maybe you just like, you feel differently about it, but you're trying things that don't sound good. You try something else.
Tom Hootman (32:21)
Good for you.
Dagan Thogerson (32:34)
So that idea and, but then also just the idea of like, if you, your band absolutely is a business, it's 100 % a business. And like the reality of it is, like only about 10 % of the business, maybe to maybe less, is actually making music, you know, and, and.
Tom Hootman (32:34)
Yeah, that still work.
Dagan Thogerson (32:54)
Performing music is maybe 15 % of it. The rest is is planning and promoting and fucking driving and sleeping and like like fighting with your wife, you know, because you haven't been home in two months or whatever like So yeah, it's absolutely a business and it should be treated as such and like you got to you have to understand that so you can like make sure that everybody is happy and it's sustainable like you're wearing you're not like burning out your bandmates You're not burning out the markets that you go to
Tom Hootman (33:05)
Yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (33:24)
You can't play the same place three times in a year. Yeah, it's... Right.
Tom Hootman (33:27)
Yeah. Diminishing returns. Yeah. I mean, you're marketing the band, right? And you can't saturate a market because you wear it out. there, is there elements of like being in an accomplished
band? Like when you were in Murder By Death and you've had this momentum, do you see that's business side too, from like a label or from like a promotion standpoint where you've, you're like that it's not, it's just the, that business, that marketing side of like how bands get marketed once they're an accomplished touring band where you're like, this isn't what I would do.
this is fine, guess. To see some of that side of it, was there some of that you got exposed to that you were like, this is how this works, promoting an album.
Dagan Thogerson (34:02)
Yeah,
definitely the idea of paying attention and keeping really, really good records of how many tickets you sold the last time you played in a city, how the merch table was, how long it's been since you've been back. Very important to keep track of that stuff and the places that you don't do so well, you wait longer before you come back.
to try to create interest and to make people want to see you. One thing that happened with us that was a major was like for the first 15, 16 years of the band, we were on the road like seven, eight months a year and just like going, going all the time. everybody was tired, you know, we were all getting, you know, getting close to our 40s and stuff. And we were like, let's try a year where we play
30 shows. Like, let's just do like a 30 show year and see if we can get paid more because of the scarcity. Like see we can book bigger rooms and sell more tickets by creating scarcity. And we tried it and it worked. You know, like it's like, ⁓ I mean, I, yeah. like people aren't going to be like, I missed him, but I'll see him in eight months and then come back. You know, it's like, we're not going to come back here for two and half years. So come tonight. We know we'll see you in two and a half years.
Tom Hootman (34:58)
⁓
You know, that's good.
No, that's really insightful. Like you don't even think about that. Like you create the scarcity, can make more as a band, you play a bigger show, you fill a bigger venue. It's probably like a more electric show. Like it's more interesting for you because you're so used to the grind of doing 3X those shows.
Dagan Thogerson (35:19)
Yeah, yeah.
Right. You can play
like the bigger nicer room and something about playing like a nice place where there's a cool awesome staff and they take care of you and things are clean. You know, that stuff feels good. And also if you're doing 30 shows a year, you're not freaking exhausted. You know, like you haven't been out for the last, you know, seven weeks or whatever. And you're not just like going through the motions and dog tired. It's like you have energy and you're playing big shows and you feel fresh and everything. Everything's just better. But I do think it's important to,
You have to really eat the shit and road dog pretty hard for a long time first to get your name out, to let people know who you are. So you have to create, you have to get the exposure before you can pull back and create scarcity. But it worked, it works for everybody. Like all the people that are still doing it, people that have been in the game for a long time, bands that have been around for 25, 30, 40 years, they go on tour every three years or something.
Tom Hootman (36:13)
Yeah, mean, there are bands that go on tour that like older artists that don't tour that much. Jack White just announced some dates and Amy was like, is he coming close to us? Because we don't know the next time Jack White's going to go on a tour, right? And I was like, yeah, who knows? So like, yeah, he's going to Indy. Let's try to make that show because it's a show we want to make. Whereas I don't know, like one of my favorite bands to see in a bar, like that setting, that small venue is Southern Culture on the Skids.
Dagan Thogerson (36:20)
Yeah, right.
Yeah, who knows.
Cool.
cool, yeah.
Tom Hootman (36:39)
Hilarious, amazing band. They're road dogs. And I probably missed, I just didn't go to shows because in my head I'm like, they'll be back next year. They always come back. It's all they do is tour every single day.
Dagan Thogerson (36:41)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Right, That's it.
I remember you are the person who showed me their song, 8-Piece Box. Cool.
Tom Hootman (36:55)
Maybe it's box. Great song. Listen to it last week. Fucking great. A great
album. Just a stupendous album. So with Murder by Death winding down, last tour is done. You joined another band. You're in another band. And also, I'll say this like the past like, feels like last six, seven years, we've been coming crossing paths, you're doing more and more like really, really great little like projects on your own or projects of like the album with your dog for your dog, right? Frankie. ⁓ Like just really fun stuff.
Dagan Thogerson (37:18)
Yeah, right.
Tom Hootman (37:21)
Is there a type of project or artist you haven't worked with yet that you'd still love to?
Dagan Thogerson (37:25)
⁓ well, like the group Orbit 17 that I've just started playing with here in Bloomington is the kind of music that like I've never really played out. never been in a band that does this where it's like, it's pretty psychedelic, kind of experimental, weird time signatures, like shredding guitar player, fronted by a woman, like a woman lead singer.
That's that's it's tickin' a lot of boxes this band like that's the reason why I said yes, you know, was like I'm listening to the songs and I'm like, this is so interesting and like challenging Like the weird time signatures and stuff i've always loved like hints of psychedelic music sprinkled into my
Tom Hootman (37:47)
awesome.
Dagan Thogerson (38:02)
Accessible bands or whatever like when it gets a little trippy and that like Radio Head's a great example, you know, and they've got some Super duper earworms, but they also they go pretty far out, you know So yeah, like just this band definitely is it's a lot of notes for me Other than that like I always liked I love playing with new people whenever I can and trying new stuff but like I'm not like itching to be and like a death metal band or like
Tom Hootman (38:04)
Mm-hmm.
Dagan Thogerson (38:30)
like a straight up country band or jazz or whatever. I love getting more experimental, so yeah, just playing more experimental kind of music.
Tom Hootman (38:37)
Yeah. Do you ever see
yourself as a session guy?
Dagan Thogerson (38:39)
Yeah, I mean, I would love to. That's kind of what I'm trying to build work towards now is the session work. And I'm doing a fair amount remote here in my house. My studio is good. It sounds good, but it's also like, and you can get a lot done remotely, but it's also, it's not the same as being in a room with the songwriter so they can like directly.
give you feedback on what you're playing and like, here's what I hear and you hear this and I'm no, that's not right. Change it, change that. Like the way I do it now is like, they'll send me a demo. Often you can just sing into your phone, but like put it to like a metronome or whatever and like give me the demo and I'll throw it into my DAW digital audio workplace for people who don't know what that is, but like throw it into the software and like I'll
record drums to it and then I'll like send it back and like here's the parts I came up with here's what I thought like do you have any notes so it'll take longer because I'll get notes and I'll do revisions and then how about this and they'll be like yeah except this one part needs so like it can be a more drawn-out process than like actually going into a recording studio with the songwriter with you but I'm working towards that there's a there's
Tom Hootman (39:42)
Yeah, it's,
yeah. The remote work environment's tough. It's good to know it's even tough for you, my friend, because it does add a different element. The world has changed completely, but also I miss being in a room with people sometimes and pitching in person. when you're in a client's office for half a day and you're working, they're like, there was something we were going to talk to you about. That stuff that comes up just doesn't come up when you're trading files back and forth or you're in a Zoom meeting all day.
Dagan Thogerson (39:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I am like I am definitely of the mind of like the social aspect of going somewhere to work with people is super important and super valuable. Working from home sounds awesome and like I would I would love for this remote session stuff to like you know succeed and I would love to do it two days a week. You know what I mean? Like I would love to have two days a week booked where I'm doing I'm in the studio all day for two days a week but then like
I don't want to do it five days a week. I want to go out. I want to see people. want to interact with musicians and interact with people and make friends and make connections. So it's got its ups and downs. I get it. I have friends who live in Chicago and they've switched to working from home exclusively. That I kind of get because driving an hour to work into downtown Chicago from Oak Park doesn't sound very cool. Or taking the train every morning or whatever.
Tom Hootman (40:43)
Yeah.
Dagan Thogerson (40:57)
I think that could probably be convinced to give up that commute and just accept the extra steps that working remote creates.
Tom Hootman (41:05)
Yeah, there's always something to be said. Like I always enjoyed working like being able to come home and work or work remote when I'm eight minutes away from my office in Bloomington was nice. I always said like, if my shoes are uncomfortable, I could come home and change them real quick in between meetings. Like there's I always I would never be able to like when I worked in the New York office, my last agency, you would see people who took the train in like what time did you leave? Like I left at 630 this morning and they're rolling in at 915. They've got a backup pair of shoes. They've got all their shit.
Dagan Thogerson (41:18)
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Tom Hootman (41:33)
and they immediately set their shit down. like, I'm going to get a fucking coffee. And it's like, and so then they're starting work. actually don't, start your day at 6.30, but you don't actually start work until 9.30. And then when I was just there working out of the New York office for the day and very Midwestern, maybe like 5.30, six o'clock, I'd be like, all right, I'm gonna go. And they're like, well, you're going already? And it was like, in New York, it's very much like you got there, you're gonna stay there until the last possible minute, then go straight to dinner somewhere and then you get home at like 10. And it was like, I need my.
Dagan Thogerson (41:37)
Right, yeah, yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Shooosh.
Tom Hootman (42:01)
I need my couch at a certain point.
Dagan Thogerson (42:03)
Yeah man, you need to go home. that like big city life is interesting. Not for me either. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (42:07)
It ain't for me. Last question.
If someone's never listened to your work before, where should they start?
Dagan Thogerson (42:15)
I mean, it was probably started with Murder by Death. That's where I spent most of my time making art.
Tom Hootman (42:21)
Which album, which album would you tell someone to start with?
Dagan Thogerson (42:23)
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
Tom Hootman (42:26)
putting you on the spot. Sorry. I love all my all my children. I love them all.
Dagan Thogerson (42:31)
It started with Red Of Tooth And Claw, that's the first record that I played on. And that was definitely very exciting for me and very exciting for the band too. We signed to a record label that we thought was awesome and we got to use a cool studio and work with a cool producer. And so the record sounds super good. We were trying.
We were trying something new musically. I was the new drummer and I played differently than the previous guy. So we leaned more into rock and rockabilly stuff. Yeah, that's a good place to start. It's one of our more popular records out of our ten. We have ten full lengths and that's one of more popular ones. So that's a good place to start. And if you can find, check out Nicotones too, my old punk band.
Tom Hootman (43:11)
The nicotones I've heard and yeah
the nicotones.
Dagan Thogerson (43:14)
If you want to go down that way, we're on Bandcamp, you can find it out there. And that's just like some drunk 22 year olds playing punk rock, you know.
Tom Hootman (43:23)
That's awesome.
always a pleasure. Thanks for making time. I really appreciate it. It was great catching up, dude.
Dagan Thogerson (43:27)
Hey, thanks, Tom. Yeah, of course. You too,
Tom Hootman (43:30)
I'll see you next time you're in B-Town, or I'll let you know next time we're in Portland.