Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

"It's been a paradigm shift for me to ask whether I can make my situation my ally rather than just try harder."
Trying harder isn't always the answer. Sometimes, the key to making progress isn't changing yourself, but changing the people and environments around you. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, psychologist and bestselling author Angela Duckworth joins Matt Abrahams to challenge conventional thinking about grit, perseverance, and personal growth. Drawing on insights from her new book, Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best, Duckworth explains why effort alone isn't enough, how asking for help can accelerate improvement, and what deliberate practice really takes. 

Takeaways:
  • Sometimes changing your situation is more effective than trying harder. The people and environments around you can either support or limit your progress. Seeking help, mentorship, and the right conditions can make your efforts more successful.
  • Better communication takes more than repetition. Deliberate practice requires specific goals, focused effort, and constructive feedback. Knowing what works, what needs improvement, and what to leave out can help you become a more effective communicator.

Activity:
  • Change the situation. Think of something you've been struggling to improve despite putting in the effort. Instead of working harder, make one change to your environment, routine, or support system that could help you make progress.
Printable Expanded Takeaways & Activities

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

 Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (01:09) - The Four Pillars of Grit
  • (05:22) - The Power of Deliberate Practice
  • (08:46) - Giving Effective Feedback
  • (11:51) - Changing Your Situation
  • (13:45) - The Value of Asking for Help
  • (16:55) - The Final Three Questions
  • (24:24) - Conclusion

Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Angela Duckworth
Professor of Psychology | New York Times Bestselling Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Monday and Thursday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our Newsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Sometimes the most important thing you can
do to make a change in your life is not

persevere, but to change your situation.

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I'm delighted to bring you my
conversation with Angela Duckworth.

Angela is a MacArthur Fellow, the
co-host of the Freakonomics radio show,

No Stupid Questions, a professor at
the University of Pennsylvania, and

the co-director of the Penn Wharton
Behavior Change for Good Initiative.

Angela's first book, Grit: The Power
of Passion and Perseverance, is a

number one New York Times bestseller,
and her TED Talk on the same topic

is among the most viewed of all time.

Her new book is called Situated:
Find the People and Places

That Bring Out Your Best.

Well, welcome, Angela.

I've been a huge fan of your work for a
long time, and we have lots of friends in

common, Katy Milkman, Allison Wood Brooks.

I am thrilled to meet you in person.

Thanks for being here.

Matt, thank you for having me.

I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Awesome.

Shall we get started?

Let's do it.

Excellent.

We have often spoken about
grit and tenacity on this show,

especially around communication
and improving communication skills.

As somebody who has spent a lot of
time studying grit and tenacity, can

you share with us what that means for
you, and what it is and what it isn't?

And you have four pillars of
grit that I'd love for you to

share with the audience, too.

Well, I have always been a striver.

I see grit as striving longer and
more consistently than most people do.

I mean, really grit is about stamina.

And when I was growing up, I
knew that things weren't coming

as easily as my classmates.

And when I grew up to become a
psychologist, I really wanted to shine

a light on the importance of effort,
sustained effort to becoming better

at whatever it is that you wanna do.

And so that occupied me, and
you mentioned the four pillars.

I, I did identify that if grit is
passion and perseverance for long-term

goals, you can ask the question:
What makes somebody passionate?

What makes somebody persevering?

So let's take passion first,
really loving what you do and

staying in love with what you do.

One element that you cannot
negotiate out of is interest.

You cannot be passionate over a
long period about something that

doesn't make you curious, that
doesn't draw your attention.

So, you know, if you wanna feel
more passionate, you know, if you're

like, "Oh, I wanna be passionate
for long-term goals," start

with what you're interested in.

Start with what grabs your attention.

You'll find that you're a genius
when it comes to the things that

you really care about in that way.

And the second element of, of
passion is feeling like the thing

that you're doing is important, and
interest and importance are different.

Importance is, you know,
this is meaningful.

Usually it means that
this helps somebody else.

Like when you get right down to
it, people who have a sense of

purpose, a calling, this work is
important, aren't only curious.

My calling is to be a psychologist,
so I'm interested in psychology

and this is my way of making the
world a, a, a bit of a better place.

So those are two.

Let's move on to the other two.

I said passion is half of grit.

The other half is perseverance.

And when you ask the question,
where does perseverance come from?

It's not willpower.

It's not forcing yourself
to do things that you hate.

I think the first place to begin is
resilience in the face of setbacks, right?

So perseverance is like going,
um, when you could have quit.

And when you ask the question,
why would somebody do that?

You are resilient in the face of
setbacks when you have the belief

that you can overcome those setbacks
and that you can become better.

Growth mindset.

You know, the, the belief that your
abilities are malleable, not fixed.

In my research, the more growth
mindset you have, the belief that

abilities are malleable at time one,
the more grit you have at time two.

But then the more grit you have
at time two, the more of a growth

mindset you have at time three.

So there's a bit of a, kind of a
self-fulfilling and virtuous cycle that

comes from the optimism to change and
then of course putting in the work.

And then finally, there is something
that I think doesn't get enough

attention, which is not the, you know,
perseverance in the face of enormous

setbacks and failures and pratfalls,
but just the daily dedication of people

who become better at their craft.

And for that, I would say it's really
the habit of doing deliberate practice,

the high quality practice, working
on your weaknesses with feedback and

consistency, and that's sometimes, you
know, nicknamed the 10,000-hour rule.

Um, but it's certainly a habit of, of high
achievers and the strivers that I study.

So I believe in passion and perseverance
for long-term goals, and I believe we

can kind of reverse engineer where that
comes from when we ask the question

like why would somebody be passionate
and why would somebody be persevering?

I really appreciate the delineation
there, and passion and perseverance

are what I see in the people I know
who have a lot of tenacity and grit.

And I, in myself, uh, my passion for,
for communication and persevered that

in service of that goal for a long time.

I'd like to drill down a little
bit on deliberate practice.

So can you help share, uh, some
advice and guidance around what makes

for effective deliberate practice?

Is it simply just getting the
reps, or is there something

more that makes that meaningful?

We talk a lot in the world of
communication about practice, but

it needs to be very purposeful,
goal-driven practice to help.

So I'd love to hear your insights there.

I'd like to tell you a story that I think
is very practical advice for anybody who's

trying to become a better communicator.

And there are actually two
people that I'd like to share.

One is the scientist behind the
research on deliberate practice, who

coined the term deliberate practice.

His name was Anders Ericsson, and
Anders was like we used to joke,

you know, the world expert on world
experts 'cause, you know, grand

chess masters and prima ballerinas.

I mean, this is all he did was to study
the skill development of people who

became really the best at what they did.

And he wanted to make the following
point, and I think the term like

10,000 hours is, is, is not quite
getting at what it is because it's

not just quantity it's also quality.

You could put 10,000 or more hours
of reps into becoming a better public

speaker and not actually become that
much better unless you do what Anders

found was the, you know, common practices
of, of the experts that he studied

across all the domains that he studied.

One is that your practice
is very goal-directed.

You're not just like, "Hey, I'm going
to speak better today." You actually

have a very particular dimension, a
very specific maybe even sub-skill,

if you wanna call it that, that
you're trying to hone in that moment.

Then you practice with
complete concentration.

You, you really give it a
full-throated effort, so to speak.

And then you get immediate feedback,
um, on what you did well and what

you need to further calibrate.

And then, of course, you have to
repeat it over and over again.

But that's the difference
between high-quality practice

and low-quality practice.

I didn't really have a goal.

I wasn't trying 100%, and I
wasn't getting immediate feedback.

So towards the very end of Anders'
life, he was a mentor of mine.

We researched, um, grit and, um,
deliberate practice together because

gritty people do more deliberate practice.

And he said, "You can only really
do this high quality practice with

support, with help, with a mentor."

I mean, somebody has to help you
set the goal and somebody has to

give you the feedback to improve.

And that brings me to Bill McGowan.

I have a coach.

I think I am twice the speaker,
twice the communicator that I am

today because my hours of practice
have been guided by Bill McGowan.

One of the things that he would
like to say about this high quality

practice is that the quality
matters and the quantity matters.

So I think he would, like
you, say that it's a skill.

Let's talk about it.

Let's unpack it.

Let's give examples.

Um, and he would like to say that
if you really want to be a better

communicator and you are willing
to do that high quality practice

and you are willing to put in the
reps of the high quality practice,

anybody can become a great speaker.

I absolutely support that.

Somebody who does what I do for a living,
teaching strategic communication, coaching

people, certainly believes that everybody
can improve and, and become good at it.

Uh, I appreciate the idea of being very
goal-directed in, in the practice and the

fact that you need feedback and guidance.

I'm curious if in your work and in your
own personal experience, what makes for

good feedback that helps people to really
improve and stay motivated to improve?

'Cause feedback comes
in a lot of varieties.

Well, one thing I'd like to
say about feedback is that it's

not only negative feedback that
makes us better at what we do.

Positive feedback can
be enormously helpful.

Turns out that amateurs seek out and, um,
benefit from positive feedback because

they're not yet sure they can do this.

So if you've got a total rookie or
somebody who's deeply insecure about

their communication skills I do think
praise helps in terms of motivation.

But when you're an expert, by the
way, you're just into efficiency

and you're like, you don't have
to tell me I'm a great speaker.

I just want to know what
I need to do differently.

So, so one thing is that positive feedback
helps in that way, but the other reason I

think we need to tell people what they're
doing right is that they may not know what

it is they are doing that is effective.

And essentially what all of this practice
is leading to is a sophisticated and ever

more sophisticated mental representation
of what speaking should be like.

And that is true of chess players
and ballerinas and public speakers.

It's like you have increasingly
sophisticated mental representations.

The feedback is what's refining
that mental representation, and

it's not just negative feedback,
although that's very important.

It's also positive
feedback that does that.

It was effective when.

That's the exact phrase I ask my
students in my own classes to use to

give me feedback on things they want me
to continue to do as their professor.

It was effective when,
complete the sentence, right?

So you know, it was effective when you
were very specific and you gave examples.

It was effective when you
bridged to the business world.

That's where we are.

And then, yes, I ask
them for a next time try.

I was like, "Next time
try," complete the sentence.

And then they'll say, "Next time
try not to, you know, talk to your

slides when you're supposed to talk
to us." So I think of positive and

negative feedback in some ways as
just being like two sides of a coin.

It's all about information that
updates our mental representation

of what we're trying to do.

Angela, it was effective when you
clearly delineated the value of

praise, uh, and especially for
people who are nervous and novice.

I found that really insightful.

And it's all about helping people develop
mental models of what success looks like.

I have found that when asking for
feedback, and that's an important

part of it too, is asking, is
that you have to be specific.

When you say, you know, "Was I good?" or,
"Did it go well?" It's easy to say yes.

Uh, but when you ask for
specifics, it can really help.

I appreciate you sharing with us the,
how feedback helps us to see the, what

is possible and how we can get there.

I'd like to turn to
your new book, Situated.

Uh, in it, you make the case
that we're more likely to succeed

in changing ourselves if we
change our situation first.

How have you seen this play out in your
own life and in the work that you've done?

Well, I started out, as I told you,
just studying individual effort,

studying it as a psychologist,
kind of living it as a person.

But there came a point in my career
where I began to ask the question,

you know, where does effort pay off?

You know, around what people and in
what circumstances does that individual

effort have the highest return?

And that's what is the topic
of this book, Situated.

In my own life too, though, Matt, I had
to learn, actually, I think a little later

than honestly would have been ideal, that
just trying hard really only go so far.

And there comes a point where, like,
just trying hard, for many of us,

certainly for me, where just trying harder
wasn't working, and I had the reflexive

reaction, well, just try even harder.

And I think truly that leads to burnout.

It was a crisis for my career, it
was a crisis for my, my marriage.

Um, and I had to change the situation.

It's not something that I think
a lot of us hear growing up.

Like, "Hey, if things are going
really badly, why don't you ask

the, whether the situation could
be different?" In fact, we're asked

not to complain about our situation.

We're asked to make the best of
our circumstances because they

are given and beyond our control.

But I asked for help.

I mean, we've talked a lot during this
conversation about how you'll be a

better communicator if someone else
helps you become a better communicator.

Even if it's a friend who listens
to you and gives you feedback.

It, it's been a paradigm shift for me
to ask whether I can make my situation

my ally rather than just try harder.

I think many of us fall into
that trap of, of just try harder.

I think we get a lot of messages
from society, from those we

respect, just try harder.

And taking that step back to
really reflect on the situation

and how you can change it and
perhaps invite others to help.

For many people, though, I can imagine,
myself included, asking for help can feel

like admitting defeat or showing that I,
I don't understand or, or know something.

Do you have advice and guidance on
how to ask for that help or how to,

to come to others and say, "I would
love to learn and be mentored by you"?

It's not only research, but my
personal experience that shows that

there can be something embarrassing.

It sort of implicitly
puts you on a lower level.

Like, if I'm asking you for help,
like, that means I'm helpless.

Um, I can't do it and I'm
looking up to you to do that.

I felt that way for really,
I still feel that way.

I would be lying if I didn't admit,
confess that, you know, I have on

my wall, by the way, Matt, like it
says, "Ask Andrea." You know why?

So I won't keep trying to solve
my own problems here at Wharton.

Like, oh, I'll figure out the HDMI cable.

Like, oh, I've got to figure
out a way to mail this package.

It says in marker, "Ask Andrea," because
I should just ask Andrea for help.

Andrea runs this department and
she's gonna know better than I do.

She actually came to my
doorway the other day.

She was like, "I just want to remind
you that you can ask me for help." And

I said, "Thank you for that reminder.

I need to write it down in marker."
So I changed my physical situation in

order to change my social situation.

But I think asking for help is
difficult, especially for those of

us who have gotten pretty darn far in
life by being an independence striver.

I think that one way that we can
begin doing that is to recognize

the following: when people are
asked for help, they love it.

I mean, just think about the last time
you were asked by somebody to do you a

favor, give you a tip, take five minutes.

I love it.

And then I think, wait, if the person
being asked for help is not burdened,

but in fact feels like it's a blessing,
maybe that could nudge me, if you will,

uh, to be a little more forthcoming.

So I think recognizing that
asking for help is human, and it

is a grace to ask other people
to do what they can do for you.

If you need reminding like I do,
get out a marker and write that on

a Post-it, like ask, you know, ask
Andrea, and put it where you can see it.

I have it at eye level.

I appreciate everything you said.

I often feel very uncomfortable
and awkward asking for help,

and yet people will express
that they're very happy to help.

I think the point you made, though, about
Andrea coming to you and saying, "Hey,

remember, I'm here to help," I think all
of us could do what she did for you to

others and, uh, who, who we are in service
of and around and say, "Hey, I'm happy

to help." And that can make it easier.

So we have to realize that, that we're
giving ourselves a little bit of grace.

The others don't feel bothered by it.

And if we are in a position
to help others, to make

ourselves available for that.

Totally agree.

So Angela, I knew this was
gonna be a great conversation.

Uh, as you know, before we end,
I like to ask three questions.

One I'm gonna create just for you, and two
I've been asking people for a long time.

Are you ready for that?

I'm ready.

Excellent.

It is rare that I get to speak to
somebody who has one of the most

popular and, and viewed TED Talks.

Uh, as somebody who's coached a lot of
people on TED Talks and has delivered

some TEDx Talks myself, I know what it
can feel like to stand on that red dot.

I'm curious to get your thoughts about
what that preparation looked like.

The talk is amazing and
wonderful and so helpful.

Can you walk us through a little
bit about how you thought about

preparing for that and, and the work
that you actually did to deliver a,

a talk that has been so impactful?

I think a lot of us can learn from
the preparation practice and, and

thoughtfulness that you put into it.

Well, Matt, you're very kind.

Um, I'll tell you the story of how
I got a TED Talk and, um, and then

how I was coached to do a better
job than I did when I first started.

I originally did a TEDx Talk.

It was being run by the Blue Man
Group, by Chris Wink in particular,

and, um, you know, I, I agreed to
take a train up from Philadelphia,

and I didn't really prepare at all.

I was like, "Oh, you want me to
talk about grit? Like, that's

all I think about, no problem." I
delivered a 18-minute talk, and then

I didn't think very much about it.

I think that TEDx Talk is what led the
TED producers, I think it was Chris

Anderson who, um, said, "You know, we'd
like you to give not a, a 18-minute

talk, but like a 6 to 7-minute talk."

He coached me in the following way.

I gave him my original idea.

I think I probably performed for him.

He said, "You know, you keep mentioning
all these other scientists." Like,

to me, that was very important to not
take credit for other people's work.

He was like, "That might be fine
for a scientific paper. It's not

gonna work for a TED Talk. It's just
simply gonna be a distraction." And

then he eventually convinced me of
that, so I kind of cut out a lot.

So part of what made that talk effective
is what was omitted, not what was added.

I think that he taught me that you
are always telling a story, so if you

think of it as kind of like, there
is a once upon a time, then something

happens, and then there's an ending.

Just the mental model that you are telling
a story, um, that was very helpful to me.

So I'm again in New York, but this
time, you know, higher stakes.

He said, um, "And you aren't going
to use a teleprompter." And I was

like, "Wait, wait, I'm not gonna get
a tel-" He's like, "Yeah, I'll see

you tomorrow," or something like.

So I did practice the talk
enough that I had it memorized.

And I, I will just say that as a
generalizable insight, I do think

that when you have something to
say, you have practiced saying

it, telling that story, you have a
mentor or a coach who can be your

audience and to give you the feedback.

I mean, I, I do think that it
certainly improved my ability

to share the message of grit.

I appreciate the story.

Two big takeaways there is often it's
what you take out that can actually

strengthen a message, be it a big
talk or, or even a pitch that you're

making, uh, or even in a conversation.

And then the other idea that I thought
was, uh, critical is this idea that

you have to practice, and also the
storytelling aspect, having structure,

beginning, middle, end, so important.

Thank you.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Bill Strickland.

I have a speaking agent, and it's
not Bill Strickland, but he has

the same speaking agent as I do.

And I asked my speaking
agent, David Lavin.

He's seen thousands of speakers.

It's all he does, is to watch people
speak and organize their speaking.

And I asked him, "Who's the best
speaker you've ever seen?" And

he said, "Bill Strickland." I had
never heard of Bill Strickland.

Well, I went and found Bill Strickland.

I learned who he is.

He runs a vocational arts program in
Pittsburgh, and he is the best speaker

because he has something to say.

When I think of who the best speakers
are, and I think of eloquence, all the

things that we've talked about matter.

I believe in reps, I believe in
feedback, I believe in having a coach,

I believe in having a community.

When you really have something to say,
then you are gonna be a fantastic speaker.

And Bill Strickland, when he speaks
about the work he does, he has

something he wants to say, and
that makes us want to hear it.

Having something to say and the passion to
bring it to others, uh, really powerful.

Final question for you, and you've
alluded to some of this, uh, but I'd

love to hear it, uh, spelled out.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Actually, I'm gonna give you three
ingredients, like a different way

than, because I just published a
paper on this, and it's not yet in

print, and it's on communication.

I recently did research on people
introducing themselves in about a

60-second kind of like, "Hi, I'm Angela."
Um, and we coded those videos of these

introductions on three dimensions, and
I think they give you the three elements

that are my answer to your question.

One was verbal, two was non-verbal,
and three was paraverbal.

Verbal is what you say.

I mean, you could get
it from a transcript.

If you wanna ask the question
like, "How does somebody come

across as competent and smart?"

It's pretty much mostly what they say.

But if you ask the
question, how about warmth?

Like, how do I come across as
somebody who really is caring and

wants to engage with the audience
because, well, I care about you.

Well, that's not what you say.

That's actually what you're
doing while you are talking.

So it's very non-verbal.

It's your facial expressions and your
head tilt and your body language,

what you're doing with your hands.

So that's a second element of
communication, not what you're saying.

Body language is the non-verbal.

And then finally, paraverbal.

Paraverbal, as you know, Matt,
are like all of the ways of how

you say, like the, the tone, the
intonation, the pitch, the prosody.

So that actually determines how competent
you seem, how warm you seem, um, and

even, you know, how upstanding you seem.

So if you ask me about communicating,
there is something to be said

about exactly what you're saying.

There's something to be said about what
you're doing and expressing with your

body and your face while you're saying it.

And there is all of the ways that
your voice is enunciating what you're

saying, the paraverbal dimension.

So those are the three dimensions
that we identified, and the take-home

is that it's not just what you say.

Right.

How you say it, uh, matters
a tremendous amount.

So it's our verbal, our non-verbal, and
the paraverbal cues that matter a lot.

Angela, you have taught us so many things.

Thank you so much.

From grit to the power of the situation
we find ourselves in and the ability to

make change, and then some advice on how
to be effective in your communication.

Thank you for your time, and thank
you for the work that you do.

Matt, I've really enjoyed
this conversation.

I look forward to the next one.

Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

I am so glad I finally
got to chat with Angela.

She provided so many
useful tidbits and advice.

The thing I'm really taking away
is the power of the situation.

We can control our physical
and social situation to help

us improve in the ways we want.

To learn more about the many aspects
of communication we discussed,

please check out our back catalog
of episodes at fastersmarter.io.

This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex

McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

I am super excited to share that we've
supercharged our English language

learning content at fastersmarter.io.

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