Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

good morning, Tom.

Good morning.

It's been a while.

Yeah, it has been a while.

Once again, we've let it become a little
bit of a while because we've both been...

We're recording on
random weekday mornings.

We're doing our best here.

Yeah, that's right.

I think maybe the main variable
is that we only record in person.

Yes, that's a good point.

So if we were to...

We could record, remotely.

We could probably be much more consistent.

We could do it more frequently, yeah.

So far, if there's one thing
that this podcast is committed

to, it's high audio fidelity.

Oh, yeah.

As you can tell, listener.

Yeah, exactly.

I guess that's been my objection anyway
to the idea of us recording remotely is

a fear that we wouldn't use our podcast
mics and we would just use our laptop

mics or whatever and then we wouldn't.

I just think listening to a Zoom call for
an hour never hits the ears all that well.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's something you
can tell that it's a Zoom call.

Okay.

Framing up today's reading,
we've got some medical issues.

Yeah, totally.

So this is, I think, actually, one of the
reasons it's been a delay is that we had

a record scheduled, and then you had a
little bit of an accident that caused us

to have to postpone our last recording.

I did.

I fell in the shower.

Sounds like you're 80 years old.

I fell in the shower, and I hit my hand
against some exposed ceramic and cut it.

And that's all fine.

And, it's been a while actually since I
had like cuts and had to go to the ER.

And so it was all a, it felt a little
bit like reliving childhood, except

this time a very nice nurse explained to
me in a calm fashion that I'm, the way

I think she was just trying to do the
right thing, but the way she phrased it

was, listen, it cut part of your tendon.

And because it's in the shower, there's
probably there's a lot of bacteria in the

shower that, and now, and because it's
cut the tendon that part, a bacterial

infection there is extremely dangerous.

And you...

You're gonna have an infe Based on
what you've told me, Paul based on the

fact that it's hard to move my finger
and whatever you have a infection

in your tendon, and it's extremely
dangerous, and you're gonna have

to spend three days in the hospital
with an IV drip of antibiotics,

or else you'll go septic and die.

Oh my god.

That was her very, She was just
trying to do the best thing for me.

Wow, very matter of fact.

Yeah.

We don't have to get too into the weeds
on that medically, but she thought

that you had an infection already.

This was only hours after it had happened.

Sorry, this was, I went to the ER,
I got stitched up, and the next

day I was like, this still hurts.

And I went to this other lady, and she
explained to me that I was going to die.

Okay, . And how did that feel?

And it was scary, Tom.

Yeah, totally.

I was scared.

I would be freaking out too.

I was scared.

'cause she was people, you're
in that position where they

have all this authority.

Yeah.

And you can't really, argue.

Yeah.

You can't really argue.

You're not really in a
position to be like, nah.

Yeah.

You're a kid.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah, I guess nothing else in the world
mattered to me at that point, right?

Yeah.

There was that kind of I think that's one
framing that we can look at this from.

It was like my job right now is
to not become septic and die.

Yeah, totally.

So sign me up for three
days in the hospital.

Sign me up for three days in the hospital.

Yeah.

And I think it's also maybe a historically
relevant example because all these

emperors you'll read their biographies
and it'll be like, Oh, incredible

emperor fought all these battles, won
all these things, and then like at some

point fell off their horse and died.

It did, yes, and got an infection.

And was like, like slight
scratch on the, ankle and died.

Scraped his side real
bad and now he's dead.

Like staph infection did.

Yep.

So I do think that the, it's
interesting that stuff like this

just killed people all the time.

Like a bacterial infection
was just the end.

Yeah, totally.

And not anymore.

Yeah.

So anyway, so I'm, my story ended
up being super melodramatic and

you did not get sepsis and die.

Yeah, I didn't, everything was fine.

I took some antibiotics and I'm good.

Now you're fine.

Okay.

Good boy.

That plays out much better than the
nurse makes it sound like it's going to.

Yeah.

But it was scary and my whole
world was like, turned upside

down for whatever, six hours.

Yeah.

And that was interesting.

Yeah.

Totally.

Interesting.

Okay.

So I had.

I would say a slightly less dramatic
version, but also a sort of encounter

with our mortal bodies and their
limitations this past weekend, which

is, here's my hot tip to listeners, my
hot tip of the week, which is a segment

I'm going to be doing from now on this
podcast, the hot tip is that if you are

in downtown Denver and you're seeking
a business lunch on a Friday from your

Work your co working space or whatever.

Do not go to snarfs
sandwiches in downtown.

I would not have done that because I did
go to snarfs horrific food poisoning And

it sucked on Friday night of last week.

I was up all night remembering what
it was like to throw up and which

I haven't done in years and all the
Gross stuff that goes along with

having really acute food poisoning.

And I the other thing that I was reminded
of that I'm very lucky to be young and

healthy and not have to deal with this.

But what it's just like to be in really
serious physical pain for a couple

of hours, and how much that sucks.

Which I just had, it.

Lucky me, I hadn't experienced that for
a while, and it was eye opening to be

like, Oh, holy crap, it is possible to
really just want something to be over and

not be able to think about anything else.

It sucks.

Which I think is a, yeah.

To your point about historical
examples, is also something that was

maybe more present, for instance,
in Marcus's life than it is in ours.

We are, we live nice anesthetized
lives for the most part.

Yeah.

I guess I'm curious.

I'll be looking for references
to pain and suffering and that

kind of stuff in Marcus's text.

Which I think, mostly for him
might come in the form of.

Talking about not worrying
too much about those things.

And I guess the point being that like,
you didn't, there was nothing you

did that you didn't choose this, you
didn't bring this upon yourself, right?

There wasn't this sense of
you were eating a risky sub.

That certainly didn't cross
my mind while I was doing it.

No, yeah.

So it does feel like Nature with a
capital N being random and cruel.

Yep.

Totally.

I also wasn't being risky in the shower.

Although, okay, good.

. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I say, yeah.

So I guess, yeah, maybe a theme
of also just random bad stuff

happens, and then how do you respond
to that random, bad stuff, yeah.

In both of our cases, it was just by,
tolerating it and then thankfully,

Moving on, slightly scarred, but
other than that, totally fine.

Yeah, and probably just recognizing
that in Marcus's day, random bad

stuff being caused by nature with a
capital N was just way more common.

Totally.

And we just, we need to, let's
read today's section just knowing

that this just happens all the
time, and the outcome isn't...

Five hours of discomfort, it's just death.

Yeah.

And you just have to square whatever
life philosophy you have with that.

It really, it makes the
case for needing philosophy.

You need, maybe more so than we do
in our lives, some way to rationalize

that or explain it to yourself.

Or else I think it would feel, I can't
even imagine what it would feel like.

It would be so scary.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

so unfair.

Yeah.

Totally.

Cool, okay.

Truthfully, I don't remember exactly which
bullet point, I know which page we're on,

but I think I see one that's close enough
to what we're talking about that I'm just

gonna start with it, and then we can, I
think we might repeat ourselves slightly.

But the one that catches my eye
is number seven here in book

four, which is choose not to be
harmed, and you won't feel harmed.

Don't feel harmed, and you haven't been.

This feels at least a little
bit related to what's going on.

For us.

But, I guess it's fair.

I guess there's something to be
said for having a victim's mindset

around these things versus just
it's random and it's behind me now.

Yeah, exactly.

And put differently, you could
also have some anger at the nurse.

Ah, oh no.

I could have some anger
at the sandwich maker.

Skunks?

What was it?

Snarfs.

Snarfs, right?

Snarfs, yeah.

I feel like you should
have known better, Tom.

That is the advice I keep getting.

I think it's a very, it's a very
funny restaurant name, which

makes the, it's an okay story.

Okay.

Yeah.

I don't know.

This reads, choose not to be
harmed and you won't feel harmed.

It feels, I don't know,
it feels 80s dad advice.

It is, but it's also insane, I think.

On some level it is possible to be harmed.

Sometimes you don't get to
choose not to feel harmed.

You've just been harmed, and
there's I don't totally agree

with this point, I think.

I guess I, I think he's, yeah, he does
this a lot where he's like overly dramatic

in the writing to get the point across,
which I think in this case, the point

is probably just don't be vindictive.

Don't, or a victim.

Yeah.

Or don't play the victim.

Yeah.

Choose not to be harmed
and you won't feel harmed.

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

So the presupposition that you are in a
situation where you can make that choice.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

All right.

Number eight.

It can ruin your life only
if it ruins your character.

Otherwise, it cannot
harm you inside or out.

Oh, I love how relevant these are.

Yeah.

Especially the idea of
harming you inside or out.

I guess you're gonna go on
eating Subway sandwiches, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Thankfully, they don't ruin
my character, I don't think.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

I guess it, this feels like
the same thing as number seven.

What is he talking about?

I think he's saying his, his whole deal
is everything you are is your character

and you're controllable and the extent
to which you control your spirit.

So nothing ruins your life
unless it touches that.

They can take everything away from
you, but if you still have your

spirit and your character, then
you, your life has not been ruined.

Yeah.

What exactly is he?

I guess he's talking about
like just setbacks or people

betraying him or things like that.

I'm just we ask this question every
time because he never gives examples.

This dude never gives examples.

The language of ruin your life.

is pretty dramatic, even for him, I think.

I don't really remember him
using a phrase like that before.

It's hard not to think about,
he's talking about losing your

family, or being mutilated in
battle, or something like that.

Yeah, I think he's also talking
about losing his daughter.

Yeah, and he's saying, okay, you
could let that ruin your life, or

you can hang on to your character,
and, approach the world the same, or

whatever, and then you're not ruined.

Okay, yeah.

I guess he's just grieving.

Yeah.

He seems to be going through
something because I'm also

eyeballing number nine here.

It was for the best, so nature
had no choice but to do it.

Alright.

Very.

Tom, you needed to be
thrown out of all of it.

It was for the best.

There was no, nature had no choice.

Yeah.

Hands were tied.

Yeah.

This too.

It What did you learn?

What did you learn, Tom, from
from your food poisoning?

That life, you should appreciate
your regular life more?

Yes, I think that's true.

And, yes I think it's gratitude
for being healthy and not having

to deal with this all that often.

And also, I remembered how you throw up.

At the beginning of this food
poisoning, I was like, I know I want

to get this thing out of me, but I
don't really remember how to do it.

It took me like an hour.

There you go.

Maybe that skill will come in handy soon.

It was for the best, yeah.

It'll be all about fast throwing up.

I'm gonna need to vomit something
much more important up very quickly.

Good.

Lucky you.

But...

Is this idea new for him?

The idea that nature always
guides us towards the best thing?

I don't feel like that's
something he's said before.

That nature's decisions are
always best is a weird framing.

Yeah, exactly.

It's just, nature has its own
plan, is usually how he puts it.

Yeah, I agree, and that it's
beyond our control or whatever.

But this sounds like, no,
nature is perfect and always

makes the right thing happen.

It's much more weirdly silver lining,
forced silver lining, basically.

Yeah, and very much more God has
a plan type thing than I think he,

that I'm accustomed to him typically.

That's true, this feels Christian, yeah.

Yeah that's...

Yeah.

Except for the, using capital N,
Nature, instead of capital G, God.

Sure, yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

Interesting.

I wonder if we'll see him
continue to talk about that.

Seems like number 10 is going
to be a similar theme here.

Number 10, that every
event is the right one.

Look closely and...

Not just the right one overall, but right.

Italicized right.

Italicized right, with lots of emphasis.

Whoa.

As if someone had weighed
it out with scales.

Okay, he's getting real religious.

Keep looking closely like that,
and embody it in your actions.

Goodness, what defines a good person.

Keep to it in everything you do.

Is he having a Christian awakening?

Holy cow.

Number four.

That every event is the right one.

I don't even really understand what
he means by the italicized right.

Not just the right one overall, but right.

That's a, what?

Yeah, he wrote it to himself.

He probably knows what he meant.

Yeah, I guess some deeper
morality version of rights.

And not just the right on average
or something where in the long term

things happen correctly, but he's
saying every individual thing that

happens is also as it should happen.

This is a very bold statement.

Yeah.

It's hard to, it must take a lot
of work to really think this way.

It's a lot easier to just say I can't
control everything, and these are the

things I can control, and these are
the Like, this is him saying, not only

can I not control everything, but the
things I can't control are all great.

Or all wonderful.

That seems Which is just, it feels like
a step beyond what he needed to do.

Yeah, totally.

Totally, yes, I completely agree.

It seems almost at odds with
what I think of naive Yeah.

Thinking back to the beginning.

at this podcast, where my concept of what
this philosophy was about was wake up

every morning and tell yourself, today's
the day that horrible things are gonna

happen to you and people will betray you.

Yeah.

Which is a philosophy to me that
was very much about the world, in

The world is Bad stuff happens,
And I'm good, And I need to, Yeah.

And this philosophy is about
how you weather the bad stuff.

And now what he's saying is, Yeah.

It's at least more complicated.

Bad stuff happens, but also
that bad stuff, it's good.

Because it's right.

Yeah, it's interesting that
he's going down this path.

I don't feel as strongly about it.

I wonder if he's gonna...

Change his mind.

Yeah, I wonder if he's gonna stick
with this or if he just went through

something specific that we can't see
because he won't tell us about it.

Yeah.

And then he's gonna be like wait a minute.

Yeah.

This isn't quite right.

He's just having an emo
moment where he needs to...

Yeah, his daughter dying, it feels hard
to put that that's, it's hard to imagine

that's the example he's talking about.

Yeah.

Again, we don't know enough history to
relate those in time to one another.

What would make the, a fever
taking your daughter right?

Italicized right?

Because that turns out to be, it
changes you as a man, and it turns

out to be the thing you needed.

But it's not about you.

It's your daughter died, yeah.

But yeah, it's...

And he has broken the world the events of
the world down for us before, as I recall.

There's the important stuff that is
the stuff that the gods are doing.

And then there's the random
stupid crap that happens.

And part of his philosophy is
about figuring out which is which

and which you need to respond to.

Yeah.

And this feels like he's saying,
but actually everything is...

Yeah.

important in some sense because...

there's a right and wrong
thing that could have happened.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

He's changing his mind a little bit.

Yeah.

And to be fair, this is not a kind of
book where he necessarily has to be

philosophically consistent the whole time.

He is just...

Yeah.

Yeah, he's not publishing this.

philosophizing in response to
his own so he's testing out ideas

is what this feels like to me.

Sorry is, does do the major
monotheistic religions believe this?

That everything is right?

Citalicized right?

I thought that...

I thought that they were just more
yeah, everything is just God knows best.

Don't worry about it.

Yeah.

I definitely.

Okay.

So I think that is tricky about that.

I think that he's not.

Addressing here is the sort of concept
of like free will and the extent

to which we make choices Because I
you know a lot of Christianity for

instance, I'd say that humans destined.

Yeah.

Yeah, but also that humans are
Born with sin basically, right?

So we make bad decisions because we've
been you know We have we were born

with sin in our hearts or whatever.

Okay, and so It's not that everything
is right, necessarily, because

sometimes we do stuff that is wrong.

Huh.

But that, yes, God has a plan
or whatever, and he only...

Okay.

sets us all challenges to, yeah.

test our mettle or whatever.

So it's not literally that everything
that ever happened is right and

as it should be necessarily.

But that might also be the level
at which Marcus is talking.

Yeah.

Just some version of master plan.

Yeah, I guess so, so one interesting
question of translation is

every event is the right one.

It depends on what he means by, we
might be being very literal about event.

Does that really mean everything
or does he mean something?

Just zooming out.

Yeah, bigger by event.

Okay.

Yeah.

Huh.

All right.

Let's see if he starts feeling any better.

Number 11.

Not what your enemy sees and hopes
that you will, but what's really there.

What?

That's not even a sentence.

Not what your enemy sees and hopes
that you will, but what's really there.

What enemy?

And hopes that you will.

I don't even under, you will what?

Not what your enemy sees
and hopes that you will.

I read that as you will see.

I see.

Okay, let's take enemy literally.

Yeah.

Those gosh darn German barbarians.

Military adversary,
yes, German barbarians.

They want you to see that they're
unified and that they're finally

gonna stand up and push you back.

That's what they hope you will see.

That's what they hope you will see,
but you see what's really there, which

is still a loose grouping of clans.

Yeah, not what you're...

Okay, just a complete
non sequitur, but, okay.

Yeah, yes, I agree.

Feels like a non sequitur, unless maybe
we're meant to read into the connective...

Yeah.

That some of what he's talking about
before is related to military...

Oh, boy.

Battle or something like that.

Oh, sure.

Maybe, they got ambushed.

Yeah.

Every event is the right one.

And even though you lost thirty percent
of your men because you, there was a

lack of preparedness in your ranks,
it revealed to you that one of your

lieutenants was not up to the task.

Yeah.

And now the, your fighting
force is more fit.

Yeah.

Gosh.

It's so abstract.

Okay.

Tom, do you have an enemy?

An enemy.

No.

You don't have an enemy?

Definitely not.

You need an enemy.

I feel like it's good to
live life with an enemy.

It's good to, okay, that's interesting.

I also don't have one.

I'm looking, I'm on the market.

You're in the market for an enemy?

I, it might be possible to make one
intentionally, that's true, yeah.

It's in my control.

Yeah.

You should stop playing the victim.

I can make my own enemy.

Yeah.

I don't know if my life would
be better if I had an enemy.

I know, it's such a funny word actually.

But, yeah.

This is crossing cycle or like
philosophical boundaries a little bit But

it that is something that comes up a lot
if you talk to people who are like big

into sports Psychology like a lot of at
least the way the myths of American sports

stories are told like Michael Jordan
for instance The greatest basketball

player of all time famously was extremely
addictive and had all these people and

Kobe Bryant was this way to where he was
like that guy slated me And was able to

just hang on to that and use it forever,
and lots of people attribute their success

to how motivated they were by basically
really feeling like they had enemies,

even if those people were not genuinely,
didn't feel the same way about it.

So maybe we should have enemies.

Maybe we would be Michael
Jordan and Kobe Bryant.

If we had, if we just had some enemies.

To cultivate the feeling of
having enemies in ourselves.

I can't imagine being
able to do that, though.

It feels so at odds.

In particular, in some ways, I guess
It's so draining to have an like it's

psychologically draining to have to
think about someone as your enemy.

Yeah.

And obviously for Marcus you have
literal enemies in the military

sense, but also it feels Yeah.

Other than that, he does a lot to explain
like why you shouldn't worry that much

about how other people behave towards
you because you're not in control of it,

and A, other people are stupid, and B
it's just however they behave to you is

their own problem, this feels outside
of the, the beautiful castle in the

sky that is Stoicism, which is, Yeah.

This is me, I'm gonna, this is my
perfectly manicured inner self,

and then everything else is...

Yeah.

Outside of that.

What this really feels like to me is he
took one bullet point from the Art of War

by Sun Tzu and put it in his meditation
or whatever and then, yeah, moved on.

Because that's, it sounds much more
like that to me than Marcus Aurelius.

Book four is all over the place.

He's going through something, I think.

Remember that this one
also doesn't have a title.

There's no time.

Just, yeah, he's got, yeah,
something's going on for him.

Let's see if we can keep investigating it.

Okay, number 12.

Two kinds of readiness
are constantly needed.

One, to do only what the logos of
authority and law directs, with

the good of human beings in mind.

And two, to reconsider your
position when someone can set you

straight or convert you to his.

But your conversion should always
rest on a conviction that it's right

or benefits others, nothing else.

Not because it's more
appealing or more popular.

Okay.

So he's talking about how to
make decisions when you're

in a position of authority.

Yeah.

So option one, stick to principles.

Option two, reconsider if you're wrong.

If something.

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

And yeah, the way you make
decision is like this.

He's using the word logos, the Greek
word logos, meaning like logic basically.

So like whatever authority and the
logic of authority and law dictates.

Yeah.

This, this seems...

Hard to argue with.

Hard to argue with, and fair, and
seems like he's a good leader.

Yeah, and he's conscious of the idea that
people will come to you with proposals

because that, oh, everyone wants you to
do this, or here's why it's so opulent,

but he's saying, stick to your guns.

It's a very also it feels a
bit utilitarian or something

to me, that it's very focused
on maximizing good for your...

Yeah, with the good of
human beings in mind.

Which human beings?

How many?

Yeah, how do you weigh harm?

Yeah.

Levied against one, yeah.

That's of moral questions that have,
are implicitly resolved by the subtext.

That are very easy to answer by Marcus.

Marcus has no problem
answering these questions.

Yes.

Oh, I really like number
13, which I've just read.

You have a mind?

Yes.

Why not use it?

Isn't that all you want?

For it to do its job?

Who Is he asking himself?

I think he must be asking himself, right?

You, meaning me, have a mind?

Yes.

Why not use it, you dumbass?

Isn't that all you want?

For it to do its job?

Okay, so logos.

So just...

Yeah, isn't that all you
want for it to do its job?

That's all I want.

All I want is for my mind to do my job.

For my mind to do its job.

I don't think I agree
with you there, Marcus.

I think I would like, part of when
I want stuff, it's because there's

stuff beyond the scope of my own mind.

Unless his mind is telekinetic or
can manipulate the world around him.

Yeah.

This one.

This one's funny.

I think why not use it?

It's very funny.

Whenever he does rhetorical
questions, it's great.

It's gold.

Yep.

Totally.

I guess I can only read this as
he's scolding himself for something.

Yeah.

He made a decision that's more
appealing or more popular and

now he's scolding himself?

Yeah, totally.

This feels like the most Yeah, self
scolding I've ever, why not use it?

We've definitely moved on from 7 through
10, which was all like silver lining.

Yes.

And now we've moved into
how to make decisions.

It's interesting.

It feels backwards to me.

I think if I make a big mistake,
step one is scold yourself, and step

two is think about silver linings.

And he's done it in the reverse order.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

Could just be different.

Yeah, different events.

Yeah, I guess so.

Okay, number 14.

You have functioned as
a part of something.

You will vanish into what produced you,
or be restored, rather, to the logos from

which all things spring by being changed.

I think Mark has learned the word
logos before I started writing this.

Oh, he must have learned it.

He really liked it, yeah.

Or be restored, rather.

Okay, so there's something like very
reminiscent of his earlier stuff about

like your body is just flesh and bones
and yeah, and so you'll be restored,

you can't you came from the earth
and you will go back to the earth.

Yeah, and I think literally and also
the sort of like you are a cog in

a great machine of the world and
the gods and the and everything.

And he's saying that
everything springs from logos.

Yes, I'm that's what that word
in that place doesn't really.

Track for me, which is why I just
feel like a newer Why I'm accusing

him of having just learned it
and he's being excited about it.

Yeah, I don't to the logos I mean
to the okay by being I guess he just

means like logos meaning more like
laws and rules There is a set of laws

and rules that govern the world and
they are in some sense the place from

which all things spring yeah by being
changed Boy, I think he's saying you

will be restored by being changed.

Okay But yes, the sentence fragments make
it a little bit tough to follow here.

But yes, I think he's saying You know you
will be changed because that's what Life

involves and then that is how you will be
restored to the thing that produced you

Yeah, so he's back to
grappling with mortality.

All right.

Yeah Okay Sounds good number 15 many lumps
of incense on the same altar One crumbles

now one later But it makes no difference.

Love it when he gives
us a physical object.

That's specific.

Yeah.

Lumps of incense.

Is that how we My 8am alarm.

Good morning, listeners.

Good morning.

I think of incense as coming in
sticks, but I'm learning that back

in the day It was just a lump, and
then you light the top of the lump?

That seems very strange.

And then it would crumble.

I guess so.

I guess over time, yeah.

Ashes.

Okay.

That makes sense.

He's being he's just talking
about mortality here, right?

Yeah, I think so.

One crumbles now, one later,
but it makes no difference.

I wish I knew, okay, I don't know
if anyone knows this, but I wish

I basically knew how many of these
little bullets he wrote per day.

Yeah, me too, yeah.

And then if I just had the historian's
best assumptions of the events that

were happening alongside the entries.

That would be fun.

Ugh, cause...

Yeah, it's an interesting
question whether or not...

Yeah.

Anyone could know the answer.

to.

Yeah, probably not.

You could probably do like forensics on
the ink or whatever of the original text.

I don't even know if we
have the original text.

That's we I was about to
say, that's good point.

I wonder where the original text is.

Yeah, we probably don't have it.

Yeah.

I wonder if you, based on what
we know of Marcus's life Yeah.

We could probably map Sure.

This the whole collection anyway to Sure.

To some events.

Sure.

But I imagine entry by entry
mappings to events would probably

be pretty hard at this point.

Yeah.

Okay.

So 15 mortality.

Yeah.

He's talking, everyone
crumbles at some point.

14 and 15 both seem like he's
back to, yeah, we, yeah, you're

going back to your creator at some
point and it doesn't matter when.

16 looks fun.

Yeah, 16 I'm excited about
too for several reasons.

Now they see you as a beast.

A monkey.

But in a week they'll think
you're a god if you rediscover

your beliefs and honor the logos.

Okay, I like that.

Yeah, so do the right thing
and people will come around.

But I love the specific example
of they see you as a beast.

I don't think of a monkey as a beast.

But I guess it just means animal.

Yeah, I think he means
non human kind of beast.

He's, I can't help but...

So they don't respect you now.

I can't help but notice he's
really hammering the word logos.

I'm just really excited about it.

It's italicized every time he uses it.

I think it's italicized
because it's not in English.

It's italicized in our
text because it's like a...

That's a non English word.

The word right was italicized.

That's, yeah, that's confusing and true.

I don't think it's because there's
emphasis on locus every time.

I think it's because you're
reading a foreign word.

In a week, they'll think you're a
god if you rediscover your beliefs.

And honor the locus.

Yeah, so stick to your guns
and over the long run people

will respect you or understand.

It's funny because this kind of
statement Contradict all his stuff

about it doesn't matter what other
people like clearly he'd matter.

He like thinks it matters what they think.

Yeah Like he's a statement is not
listen, some people will never get

it But that's not the point his
statement is they'll come around

like the masses will love me later.

Yeah.

Yeah It's as if he is
optimizing like popularity.

It's just He's trying to find
a tactic to better optimize it.

Yeah, OK.

So that's, this feels like a sort of theme
we're picking up on in the text today,

is more so than I remember in the past.

He's changing his mind about,
or he's at least pretty prone

to contradicting himself.

But, yeah, in a way that I think maybe
should throw some light on are we not?

I think post time or maybe.

Yes, okay.

We had a little technical challenge there.

We are back with number sixteen in
book four, which says, Now they see

you as a beast, a monkey, but in
a week they'll think you're a god.

If you rediscover your
beliefs and honor the logos.

So we enjoy that he's
a beast and a monkey.

Whenever he invokes
animals, I'm always Love it.

Happy.

Yeah.

Yeah, and essentially he's
just saying, stick to your

guns and they'll come around.

Yeah, which, which is a little bit
at odds with this thing that so often

he says, don't worry about what other
people think, make the right decisions.

based on your own assessment
of the world or whatever, and

now he seems to really care.

He does seem to really care, yeah.

What other people think.

This is the constant tension.

He makes these really bold statements
about, we're all flesh and bones, like

it doesn't matter what other people
think, like if it doesn't, if you

don't acknowledge it can't hurt you.

And then he says stuff that
clearly indicates that he doesn't

actually follow those statements.

Yeah.

And this is one of them.

Yeah.

I guess that makes the text more
interesting to me and not less.

Yeah, he's a dude.

He's not just a philosopher,
he's like a guy with a...

Yeah.

And this text is not a textbook.

It's a journey for him too.

So yeah, it's okay, wait a minute.

Maybe I was wrong about the thing before.

I do care what people think I need to.

And I really, it really hurt me
when they called me a monkey.

So let me think about how I'm going
to not have that happen anymore.

Okay.

And I can't help, but notice he has
used the word logos again in this

entry, which really makes me think
that he's got a new favorite word.

Okay.

Numbers.

17.

Not to live as if you had
endless years ahead of you.

Death overshadows you.

While you're alive and able, be good.

This is a very poetic way of saying
what I was thinking about as I

was vomiting with food poisoning.

I think that's pretty consistent
with the mortality experiences.

This is poetic.

This is actually really nice.

Yeah, I agree.

Death overshadows you.

I love that.

Yeah, that's lovely.

Yeah, I agree.

Oof.

Yeah.

It's like you're constantly living
in the shadow of death, yeah.

We're just sprinting ahead
of a shadow that's always

encouraging on us or whatever.

Yeah.

Yep.

While you're alive and able, be good.

Hard to argue with that.

No.

As a philosophy.

Death overshadows you.

Yes.

Ah.

If you had died from food poisoning.

Yeah.

I guess you lived a
pretty good life, right?

I don't think I would have a
lot of regrets about the choice.

Aside from the sandwich, I guess
I wouldn't have a lot of regrets.

Snarks!

Yeah, that would be a regret.

Yeah.

I think you have a lot to be proud of.

Obviously, I would have loved that.

You would've loved to live past, yeah.

Past that one sandwich.

Yeah, past that sandwich.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

And similarly, if you had been
septic, I think I'd be proud.

And I think it, it's okay.

It's okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

If it has to, if the sandwich has
to take me down, if the falling

in the shower had to take me down.

Yeah.

So I guess we're doing this one.

I feel like most of these bullet
points, if I do my internal

check, am I doing this one?

I don't think I'm like, I don't
think I live as, I do live as if

I had endless years ahead of me.

I think one example of that is I still
play sports as if I'm 20 years old.

Like I still just do physical, I'm
like physically very risk taking.

Yeah.

And so there, there are things
that I'm like, learning to adjust.

Yeah.

Same with some of these goals
I have right now that are like,

probably don't matter that much.

I don't think.

Of the people I know in my life, I
would not say you are particularly

in danger of living as if you
have endless years ahead of you.

If anything, I think you are
pretty conscious of not having

endless years ahead of you.

What makes you say that?

I think you make decisions that
are about, hey, I'm in a prime

period of my life right now and
I really want to take advantage

of these prime years that I'm in.

I see you as being quite conscious of
that and not everyone else our age is.

I think it is, especially maybe
in modern America, where a lot of

your 20s and even 30s can be this
sort of protracted adolescence

kind of thing for a lot of people.

You don't really live like
that, is my perception.

Fair enough.

I guess we all have, we're
all on a spectrum of that.

Yeah.

But yes, that is not to say necessarily
that we're all perfect at this, as you

say, about getting injured playing sports,
or doing other childish things or, yeah.

Yep, okay, alright, you're winning me
back a little bit, Marcus, with this one.

I like this one.

I gotta agree with this one.

Yeah.

Okay, number 18.

The tranquility that comes when
you stop caring what they say.

Back to this.

Okay, alright, so you got over it.

Or think.

Or do.

Only what you do.

Parentheses.

Whoa.

Is this fair?

Is this the right thing to do?

What?

Oh okay.

I think he's expanding
on only what you do.

Yes, I think he's saying.

He's not questioning the text.

Yes, I agree.

It looked like he was having a very
interesting response to his own

entry, but I think you're right.

He's just elaborating on how you
evaluate what you do, or, yeah.

Okay.

And now we've got one of these
things where there's some

text that's been omitted with
some brackets and an ellipsis.

Ooh.

And I really.

A mystery.

In this case, I can't even venture
a guess what the omitted text is,

but what it says is, ellipsis, not
to be distracted by their darkness.

To run straight for the
finish line, unswerving.

What?

Not to be distracted.

I guess the people that you
don't care what they say.

I say, to run straight
for this finish line.

That's the finish line.

He loves this whole destination
style thinking where it's

like, there's some finish line.

He keeps repeating that concept.

Remember hurry up?

My favorite thing where he was
like, hurry up, and Something.

Hurry up, but it wasn't clear
what we were hurrying up to.

Yes.

This feels very similar.

What is the finish line, Marcus?

Yes.

And, again, I probably said this
at that time too, but it's it

feels completely at odds with me.

With this philosophy that is so much
about process, that is like the philosophy

of process, that just, get your mind
and everything else will follow.

Everything else follows.

And not, now there's a finish line.

Oh no.

Yeah.

Yeah, this is the tension.

It must be some version of
cleaning up these barbarians.

Yeah.

Okay.

So he made some unpopular decision.

Yeah.

Someone called him a monkey.

Someone called him a monkey and now
he's talking about how I shouldn't

care about what they think.

And my job is just to bring, go
to the sprints of the finish line.

Yeah.

I'm swerving.

Yeah.

And run straight for the finish line.

But he's also talking about
tranquility, which also seems like yeah.

Your job is just to run straight
at a finish line, but tranquilly,

but yes, what the benefit of that
is that you will feel tranquil.

Yeah.

It is interesting.

This running for the finish
line thing, I guess we take for

granted that's a shared metaphor.

But that's, I guess that's from,
I don't know, the Olympic Games?

Oh yeah, that's interesting.

What was his concept of
running for the finish?

They had races.

They must have had foot races.

The marathon or whatever gets
invented at this period too.

To run straight for the finish line.

Yeah Marcus is aware of foot races.

Yeah, is he deploying the first
sports metaphors in this text heap?

I wonder how many of those existed before.

I guess this might have
been a translation thing.

Probably, yeah.

Or there's subjects to that for sure.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, number 19.

People who are excited
by posthumous features.

Fame.

Forget that the people who remember
them will soon die too nice.

And those after them in turn until their
memory pass from one to another, like

a candle, flame, gutters and goes out.

Love it.

But suppose that those who remembered you.

You were immortal, and
your memory undying.

Here we go.

What good would it do you?

And I don't just mean when you're
dead, but in your own lifetime.

What use is praise, except to make your
lifestyle a little more comfortable?

Okay, and then there's some text.

It's like a little sword emoji.

Some text that's, yes demarked by
two little swords which are sometimes

used when there's like a footnote
on a page that you need to go read,

except that this isn't a footnote.

It's just a sentence that's enclosed in
two little swords and it says, you're out

of step neglecting the gifts of nature
to hand on someone's words in the future.

Okay, so we're, it seems like
he is chastising himself.

For having worried about his
legacy, or his, yes, people who

are excited by posthumous fame.

I feel like that's only you, buddy.

It's, it also, posthumous fame sounds
I guess maybe this is translation

as well, but you're already famous.

It's not that you're excited by
posthumous fame, but you're inevitably

going to be posthumously famous.

You're the friggin emperor of Rome.

I gotta say, I have a really hard time
understanding what he means by that.

Really, what I'm trying to
say is, I have zero interest.

Zero.

Yeah.

I do not care.

Yes.

Agreed.

So that's interesting.

We don't understand.

Maybe a lot of the things he's talking
about are just things that because

he believes, he cares so much about
his fame there's probably a lot of

other stuff we also don't understand.

Yeah.

Ugh.

It's, so it was drilled into him.

Someone told him that
this is important, right?

I don't think regular, I think
only people in power think this

way, or in Who thinks this way?

Do regular, can you have just
like a regular person I'm a

farmer, and then I, but I really
care about my posthumous fame.

That doesn't seem to me like
it happens very, or doesn't

happen often that I'm aware of.

I think it's artificial.

I think someone tells you that
this, you're an emperor and it's

important that people remember
you well or something like that.

Yeah.

Two things come to mind for me with this.

One is, yes, I think if you're an
emperor specifically and maybe even

more so in this era where I bet he knew
the stories of the previous emperors

really well and had been taught them
since he was a little kid and so

he just exists in this tradition.

That's right.

Of posthumous fame.

And from being little, he's probably
thinking about, okay, how will I fit into

this story that our nation tells itself?

That's a good point.

Yeah.

The other thing that comes to
mind in modern life, the only

people who I can think of.

who worry about posthumous fame tend
to be people who were like really

successful and then they like, are like,
oh no, I'm now I have a midlife crisis.

Like Elon Musk comes to mind for me as an
example of someone who probably, or Mark

Zuckerberg maybe, as people who straight
up are thinking about what are people

going to think about me after I'm Right.

They're like the only kinds of
people who that really comes to

mind for me in the modern world.

Yeah, in the modern world, yeah,
there's this interesting part of

Caesar's upbringing is that he lived
in this house where there was a room

that was like the ancestor room.

And all of his ancestors had busts or
something or like paintings of, and

then they were like, stories about all
of them, and the point is that they all

had really interesting backgrounds, Or
like they were had accomplished a lot.

Yeah.

And obviously, and then Caesar went to
cried at Alexander's grave and there was

a whole thing where there was a sense of
so what's going to be your on your bus?

And because this was something that he
experienced so early in life, it must have

been very, Just impactful, like every day
he must have woken up and thought What is,

shit, how am I building towards my legacy?

Yeah, totally.

Which is just an upbringing thing.

Yeah.

It's just that Romans did this, and,
or at least high ranking Romans did

this, and we seem to not do this.

Yeah.

Marcus is rejecting it as part, I
think that's part of what's going

on in this text is he's saying,
it's this thing we do is bad.

Like you end up making bad
decisions because you're making

decisions about your legacy as
opposed to seeing it more clearly.

You're probably just trading off
like day to day happiness for.

I don't know, some outcome.

You're probably more likely to
be more driven or something.

Yeah there is something funny too about
the thing we were talking about earlier,

with the history of emperors and kings
and how frequently the reason they died

was they fell off a horse or whatever.

And at the same time, Marcus is so
worried about the story that will be told

of him later, even though for a lot of
those guys the story was a story of...

Something basically uncontrollable
happened to him, and then now he's gone.

Yeah, that, and I think he had
that section about Oh, all these

important people died in silly ways.

Yeah.

Yes.

So I think that's fair.

I think the other thing that's
to Marcus point is that a lot

of this, the posthumous fame of
these figures, it's just politics.

It's just the next emperor needed to
justify His claim on the throne and

to do that he needed to shit on the
previous Emperor and so whoever held the

pen and or and held the scepter could
define the story and it is out of your

control It's really not actually All
that like the reason Caesar is so revered

is because of Augustus Or Augustine or
whatever his name was wrote, needed to

justify his own lineage basically and
so it made Caesar into this great guy,

even though, he could have very easily
been, like, the most evil emperor ever.

I see, yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Especially this, what uses praise.

He's yeah, I agree with your reading.

I think he's saying, yeah, even the
sort of Even if you did get to have

your, the people remember you forever.

Yeah.

This story, it wouldn't
serve you that well.

Yeah, interesting.

Boy, alright, let's do two more?

Yeah, sounds right.

Cool.

Okay number twenty.

Beautiful things of any kind
are beautiful in themselves

and sufficient to themselves.

Praise is extraneous.

The object of praise remains what
it was, no better and no worse.

This applies, I think, even to quote
unquote beautiful things in ordinary life.

Physical objects, artworks.

Does anything genuinely
beautiful need supplementing?

No more than justice does, or
truth, or kindness, or humility.

Are any of those improved
by being praised?

Or damaged by contempt?

Is an emerald suddenly less, or
suddenly flawed if no one admires it?

Or gold, or ivory, or purple,
liars, knives, flowers, bushes.

I love this.

Yes, me too.

Okay, I feel like the point he's
making is one thing, but let's just

focus on The last two sentences.

Gold, ivory, Purple, emerald
Gold, ivory, purple, liars,

knives, flowers, and bushes.

All the beautiful things that we take
for granted in our regular lives.

Not even take for granted, gold, ivory,
these are the most beautiful things.

Bushes, Tom.

Flowers.

What does he mean?

Yeah.

I'm saddened that he didn't do flecks of
Spit on the boar's jaw or whatever, yeah.

The way bread, The head of a lion.

The head of a lion, the way
bread splits on the oven.

What's a lyre?

I might be pronouncing that wrong.

It might be pronounced leer.

It's like a little Oh, it's a harp thing.

Yeah, like a harp guitar kind of thing.

Stringed instrument.

Knives.

I guess they're ornamental
knives is what he means.

Unless he loves...

Yeah, or just I think maybe and yeah,
probably they're yeah ornamental or

whatever But also maybe just a beautiful
a knife can just be beautiful and it's

functionality It's funny because some
of these examples, I guess you can argue

that an emerald is pretty Yeah But like
purple has literally no like the purple

meaning the fact like the color of the
Emperor has literally no meaning unless

it Is praised like there's no value in
purple unless it's praised it's like

all that is just a Social symbol Yeah.

I guess I disagree.

But he, I guess a more generous
reading to him, I interpret it as

just the colorful richness of the
world is a beautiful thing to behold.

And yes, like purple, you're right,
purple has specific meaning because

it's like the color of the emperor.

Yeah.

But he could, to my mind, he could
substitute any color here and he's

just saying colors are beautiful.

And we don't.

He's just saying purple's a pretty color.

That's why I wear it.

It has nothing to do with the
fact that I'm the emperor.

Yeah, exactly.

It's just, what a pretty color.

That's how I interpret this.

Okay, yeah.

It does hit the modern year odd.

Gold or ivory or purple.

Purple feels much more both
abstract and quotidian.

Yeah.

It's interesting for him to start
philosophizing about beauty like this.

It's not really...

He seems to do this occasionally.

I guess he touched on it before
with the flecks of spit on

the board's jaw or whatever.

But just once in a while,
he's captivated by beauty.

I guess in this case it does
at least feel connected to what

he was talking about before.

Because he's talking about
how superfluous praise Is.

That all praise is bullshit, basically.

And it doesn't change the
goodness of the underlying.

He should've added me to the list.

Flowers, bushes, me.

Embers.

He's too happy to...

That's a, this, I don't know how
frequently this thought has been

expressed, but it's this is like a
Shakespeare y kind of, I get a sort of,

a rose by any other name would smell as
sweet kind of vibe from this and also the,

yeah, the sort of, does anything genuinely
beautiful need supplementing, no, like

he's defining beauty as like needing no
more than it already is which is poetic

and I think maybe ahead of its time.

I think there are lots
of iterations on that.

Yeah, I think he could have gone deeper.

I don't think ivory in
itself is beautiful.

I think if he had said snowflakes
and drops of dew in the morning

those are things that...

Are beautiful and aren't like, you could
argue they're beautiful, independent.

It's not like they're
being praised all the time.

Sunrises, like golden ivory is just
these are materials that society

determined are beautiful just
literally because of praise and purple.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's, yeah, it's interesting.

The examples are confusing.

Flowers is more flowers.

Is it falls into the bucket
of, yeah they're pushes.

It's very funny.

Yeah.

Yeah, so maybe not super meta cognizant.

Unless I don't know if anyone
would just go up to gold and be

like, oh my god, this is beautiful.

If we were explained to that
this is really important.

It's sparkly.

It gleams.

Yeah.

Okay, maybe gold but ivory.

Ivory's a white rock.

Yeah.

Who cares?

It looks really, it's not even that white.

Yeah.

It's yellowish.

Yeah.

There's so many prettier
things than ivory.

Stained, yeah.

It's just the fact that it came from
an elephant and indicates that you

are, like, a master of the universe
is why people like it, right?

Yeah, pearls or something would
be whiter and shinier, yeah.

He might have had pretty limited
examples of beautiful stuff to draw yeah.

Or I guess we're learning about what
was considered beautiful, or at least

what seemed inherently beautiful to him.

But yes, it is interesting
how few of these...

Hit our ears as, oh yes, the inherently
beautiful things of the world.

Okay.

Okay, number 21.

If our souls survive, how does
the air find room for them, all of

them, since the beginning of time?

Whoa.

How does the earth find room
for all the bodies buried in

it since the beginning of time?

They linger for whatever length of
time and then, through change and

decomposition, make room for others.

Too, with the souls that inhabit the
air, they linger a little and then

are changed, diffused and kindled
into fire, absorbed into the logos

from which all things spring, and so
make new, make room for new arrivals.

One possible answer.

But we shouldn't think of only
the mass of buried bodies.

There are the ones consumed on a daily
basis by us and by other animals.

How many are swallowed up like that?

Entombed in the bodies of
those that nourished by them,

of those nourished by them.

And yet there is room for them
all, converted into flesh and

blood, transformed to air and fire.

How is the truth of this determined?

Through analysis, material and cause.

Whoa.

Okay, this is the last two
sentences are very weird to me.

I really like the first thought
he's having here, which is

very like, metaphysical, has
there room for all of us?

Yeah, and like it's, the one of them
is like a child's thought basically

oh, we bury dead bodies and how is
there enough room on earth for all

the bodies that have been buried?

Because I feel like the
answer is there's this room.

The earth is much bigger.

Yeah.

So answer number one is actually human
history is shorter than you think it is.

We still have plenty of room on earth.

Yeah.

And then, but then he knows that.

Also, bodies change and decompose, that
over time more space is created because

the bodies don't just stay there forever.

And then he does this nice leap that I
think to me is an original thought about

is that how it works with spirits too?

The question he starts
with is a very strange one.

How does the air find room for our souls?

It's not something we really think of as
being a problem for souls because we don't

think of them as taking up any space.

But it, it is like a, an eternal question
of yes, if everybody became a ghost,

the world would be teeming with ghosts.

I have found it interesting, there was
something else too where he alluded to

all of the human history before him.

I find that really interesting because I
think the Romans were very much aware of

the Egyptians and the Babylon, like all
these other peoples the Greeks, right?

Yeah.

So that's so yeah, I guess he, in the same
way, like relative to us, like we think

about having a bunch of human history,
so does, so did he, like he must've had

the same exact perspective on things.

There's no sense of being
closer to the beginning if

you're Marcus than if you're us.

Yep.

Agreed.

So I think that's interesting.

I think the other thing that's happening
is like, there's, this isn't true,

but there's that like fake facts that.

In the last hundred years,
there, it's more than half of

the people that have ever lived.

That's just not true.

It's 20 percent or something.

Yeah, that's right.

But I think for some reason, I
think we, we have this sense of like

such explosive population growth
in the last hundred years that it

almost feels like this is day one.

Whereas maybe Marcus didn't feel that way.

Maybe he felt like he's just another
emperor in a long line of emperors and

a long line of empires before him Yeah,
and you know who cares and or not even

there was more continuity with history
Yeah, and like they were all battling

each other and all those dead bodies
had to be buried somewhere, right?

And so walking around the world is
walking around this graveyard and

this it's more historical Yeah, you're
walking through souls all the time.

Yes Since as long as can be
remembered, these places have

been full of the same people who
have been living and dying there.

Yep, I agree.

I think it's strange to think, but
history might have felt longer to

him than it does to us, actually.

As backwards as that seems.

Yeah.

Yes, I agree with you there.

And then he does, so he does this
interesting thing where, I'm I am charmed

by this idea that, Oh yes, our souls might
decompose and change too, in the same

way that our physical bodies might, they
might turn into fire or whatever else.

That's pretty and poetic, maybe.

And then he says, Okay, that's one
possible, then he backtracks and says,

That's one explanation for how there
can be all these spirits in the air.

And then he starts thinking
about, They're just decomposing.

And he seems to be talking about
Bodies getting literally goes back to

our physical bodies and then he talks
about them getting eaten basically.

Yeah And not just us this takes yeah and
not just us but also like animals I think

he's talking about their bodies How many
are swallowed up like that entombed in

the bodies of those nourished by them?

So he's saying okay I guess just like
asterisk, there's also this other

thing that happens to our bodies.

I guess it's supposed to add to the
vastness, the feeling of vastness.

Yeah, yes.

It's think about all those
buried bodies I'm describing.

They don't even all get buried.

There's even more of them because
a huge percentage of them are

eaten by beasts or whatever.

Okay, and then I am truly mystified
by the last two sentences of this.

How is the truth of this determined
through analysis, material, and cause?

What?

I understand, why he's
asking the question.

How is the truth of this determined?

Through analysis, colon,
material, and cause.

I guess what he's saying is...

Do the math.

Yeah, some combination of this
is not a truth that's been

handed down to us by the gods.

This is something we can arrive
at by our own logical faculties.

Sure.

It's very interesting that he I guess the
reason he, it's interesting that he feels

the need to answer that question at all.

Why is he even asking how is
the truth of this determined?

But maybe it's because he's in
such a metaphysical space here.

These are typically the types of
questions that the gods would be.

Responsible for or whatever
and he's saying no.

No this that's not why we know this
one we can figure out ourselves through

reason yeah Interesting he's got a
lot going on this guy's He's worried

about big metaphysical questions, he's
worried about people calling him names.

Yeah, he's Telling himself that everything
you do is or everything that happens

is for the best I guess this is a more,
feels like a more scatterbrained Marcus.

Definitely scatterbrained, yeah.

And more yeah, I guess just a little
all over the place in book four here.

I'm gonna keep noodling on that part.

I guess if we just give him credit.

And we just because like my initial
reaction was there's plenty of space.

It's fine.

Yeah, don't worry Marcus Okay, if
but if we give him credit and like

he you know There isn't the sense of
this we have the shared belief that

human history started 50, 000 years
ago if you didn't have that Yeah,

then and he's like literally worried.

He's like, where are they?

What if we you don't have many use
more space for these spirits, right?

That's like an interesting concern.

It's a mystery to him.

How does the earth find room
for all the bodies buried in

it since the beginning of time?

I guess he doesn't know
about decomposition.

He does, though.

But he doesn't, he answers the question,
but maybe bones, he doesn't know that

even bones can be de can decompose.

They linger for whatever length
of time and then through change in

decomposition, make room for others.

Okay, fine.

He knows he does but maybe make room
for others just means he thinks they

like shrink and Yeah, they turn into
bones, but doesn't, he's not necessarily

saying they disappear completely.

It, they just make room for the others.

I I'm enjoying this mental image of him
being really freaked out about this.

Yeah.

I like it.

Oh, there's, we're gonna run out
of space and then I'm gonna die.

Yeah, where are they gonna put my bones?

And then I'll have to wait in line.

Yeah.

And my, my, my bones gonna
just sit on top of the earth.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good, I
think that's a good point.

I think I skipped over this.

Some of those phrases as we read through
it, but yes, all the bodies buried

in it since the beginning of time.

That's one way, in a lot of ways, they
understood a lot of stuff that we do

about the world and it's impressive.

But he thinks that humans have existed
since the beginning of time, which is

not at all the modern understanding.

Yeah, I whatever that means to him.

Yeah.

Yes, that is funny to think about this.

This is a true mystery to him of,
there have been humans forever.

Yeah.

And yet the earth he knows is only so big.

And wait.

Yes.

How can that be?

And yet he.

I wonder what, I wonder if he had,
like Romans had a conception of when

human, like when things started.

I feel like it's a very big leap
to just say humans have always,

like there have always been humans.

There must have had some origin
story of and the land was...

They were created by the gods, right?

Yeah, and yeah, there was
some, exactly, some beginning.

Yeah.

And that beginning must not
have been like, that long ago.

But the gods are like,
infinitely old, right?

Eh?

Maybe they're not.

They created Rome?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good question.

I don't I, maybe a legitimately
source of uncertainty for them.

Yeah.

Like, how old is all this stuff?

Yeah, it's I truly don't know what the
thinking is it feels like it's implied

by what he's saying here that Humans have
been around since the beginning of time

Which is and maybe he just means that the
beginning of time is when the gods made

the humans Yeah, but then if he thought
that the beginning of time was like, 50

generations ago, then it's not infinite
then there's plenty of space on earth.

Yeah My sense is that's not it.

That they don't think they can
trace their ancestry back all the

way to the ones that the gods made.

That's like pretty self aware of them.

That's pretty cool.

I feel like a lot of cultures said,
okay, then there was flat and then there

was water and then there were humans
and we were the first, some version

of and then there were this tribe
and then, yeah, that's interesting.

I, yeah.

I wonder if he does think he can
be traced back all the way to

the first humans ever created.

Yeah.

In a, they lived here, and yeah, you
wonder how complete their, they thought

their own recollection of history was.

This makes it seem like...

It's hard to say.

It feels like a weird
thing to be worried about.

Yeah, he's implying that he
thinks it's been a long time

since the beginning of time.

And there have been lots of
people in the intervening time.

And it's hard to imagine that he
thinks he knows the whole story.

Yeah, that's true.

Very interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, sometimes it's nice for
Marcus to give us a little dose

of this was what it was like to
be alive in Rome and understand.

The world, but also not.

Yeah Okay.

Bye.

See you next time.

Bye

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