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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
Welcome to the Anti Racism Leadership Institute podcast, where we ignite the sparks of change and inspire a world free of racism. This podcast is dedicated to highlighting the most cutting edge anti racist research in education for the purpose of connecting practitioners to powerful research based approaches to racial equity. I am your host, doctor Tracy a Benson. And today, we invite you on a transformative journey as we delve into the efforts and triumphs of those dedicated to fostering racial equity within education. Welcome to the Antiracism Leadership Institute Research and Practice podcast.
Dr Benson:Today, we have the opportunity to talk with Michelle Cody and doctor Keri Koca about their coauthored article, Educational Facials, a Healing Tool for the Beautiful Struggle. Michelle Cody is a middle school mathematics and literacy teacher in San Francisco, California. Doctor Coker is an associate professor of mathematics education in the department of teaching and learning at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Together, they cohost the Critical Math Math Drop podcast available on criticalmathdrop.com, Spotify, and Apple Podcast. The link to their podcast is also available in the show notes.
Dr Benson:Welcome, and thank you both for coming today. I really appreciate you joining me.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Yeah. Thank you.
Michelle Cody:Tell your people to like and subscribe first. Like, you know, like and subscribe. Hit that button. Hit that button after you listen to this. But, like, hit that button.
Michelle Cody:Listen to us.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Podcast. We're both podcasts.
Dr Benson:Yeah. So I just wanna wanted to start out so folks can just know who you are. Right? Sort of your your history and how you came to this concept of social justice math education and why why that became even a concept for you in the first place. Like, I'm in in my history, I was a 4th grade math and science teacher.
Dr Benson:And so this epistemology around social justice ed math education was a new concept that I wasn't really familiar with. I just taught from my curriculum. So how was it that you went from going from the curriculum to expand it to more of a social justice lens? And whoever, you know, would like to start or answer that question could dive into that.
Dr. Kari Kokka:I I can start first. So I was a high school math teacher and math teacher activist for 11 years prior to going back to grad school, and I was doing a lot of organizing work in the classroom, but I didn't have as much opportunity to infuse social justice math tasks in my own classroom, and so that was what I wanted to study. Right? So I wanted to marry these two things that I was doing. So I was my principal, let me take my students to protests and rallies in the middle of the school day.
Dr. Kari Kokka:We organized a town hall meeting with, former Black Panthers and Young Lords. So I was doing a lot of community organizing and meeting a lot of, amazing organizers in New York City, and I really wanted to infuse that more with my actual practice. And then I I had also cofounded a math and social justice conference in 2007, creating balance in an unjust world. And so, actually, through Michelle's classroom was really what helped me to learn even more about the operationalization of social justice math.
Michelle Cody:Yeah. So I, been working with young folks for a really long time. I actually started in Sunday school. I used to teach Sunday school, and then I moved from Sunday school to work for this program called AIM High, which I still currently work. I'm no longer a teacher there, but I'm, like, a site director slash principal there.
Michelle Cody:And, it was there at AIM High that my site directors were like, girl, you need to go into teaching. And I was like, nope. No. No. No.
Michelle Cody:Mm-mm. That's a poor man's job. No. Thank you. And they're like, no.
Michelle Cody:No. No. This is your calling. This is what you're supposed to do. And I was like, at that point, I had already just finished getting my, undergrad in economics from the Howard University.
Dr Benson:Howard
Michelle Cody:people are so annoying. Yes. We are. And so I applied to the social justice, urban education and social justice program at USF, and, I got in. Well, uh-huh.
Michelle Cody:Fun fact, I didn't get in the first time. I got rejected, and there was tears and cheddar bay biscuits at Red Lobsters with 2 of my friends as I didn't get in to the program, but that was okay because that wasn't the cohort I was supposed to be with. The next the following year, I did after some after some some stocking of, Cam showing up at places and being like, pick me, choose me. I should be in your next cohort. I was I was put into the program.
Michelle Cody:And so it was there that I was able to, like, get some understanding and some framework, because I've always been a black woman. I've always navigated the space as a black woman. I went to a black college. I went to a predominantly Asian high school. I went to Lowell High School.
Michelle Cody:And so othering was always a thing that I've always known and experienced, but it was because of being in that class. In that program, I was able to put, like, educational framework, and I was able to reflect on some of the, like, conceptualization that I had and some of the, like
Dr Benson:I
Michelle Cody:don't, like I don't wanna say anti blackness, but, like, some, like, things that I didn't know inherently, like, oh, wait. Why do I think that? Oh, it's because of all of these because of the environment that I was around. And, like, I come from a you know, I come from 2 parents who graduated from college. Right?
Michelle Cody:And they always promoted, like, going to college and doing what you gotta do. And so that wasn't the thing, but it's just like when you live in San Francisco and you won't go to a school when you don't see a lot of people that look like you, and then you go to a school where you see everybody looks like you, you have to you have to do some reflection. You have to do some, like, thinking and synthesizing about each of those very unique experiences and how they made you who you are. Anyways so I had, did the elementary ed. So I was the elementary ed teacher, but I all the work I did at AIM High was always science.
Michelle Cody:I was always teaching science. And so I got my first gig, when I was still in grad school teaching 7th grade math and science. And it was, there that my next gig, 2 years later, was teaching just math at, at a predominantly well, now well, the justification is happening, so it's a it's a little different. But it was originally a predominantly black school in a black neighborhood. And so it was Cam who introduced me to Carrie at the NAME conference, and he was like, oh, you guys are both math people.
Michelle Cody:You should should connect. And so, Carrie, like, was very instrumental in helping me push forward because it was rough. Like, she when we decided to just when we both decided for her to come into my classroom, she sat there for, like, weeks, and your girl didn't know social justice math. And I just had this woman in my room staring at me, 2 times a week, and I was like, something has changed. And it was, god.
Michelle Cody:It was Kimberly Foster, and she did an an a, I don't know, video about how people are hating so hard on Beyonce's daughter. And, we used that to talk about online bullying, and we attached that to, like, the number line and positive and negative language words and creating an absolute value equation. And so I got the kids to kinda, like, watch this video, talk about, like, anti blackness, and talk about what that looks like, and then look at some mean tweets. I've actually since got rid of that thing because I did not wanna be a part of this. It's like the the, like, taking down this little girl.
Michelle Cody:So it was like an it was a, lesson I used for a couple years, and, again, this is when we talk about social justice math. And
Dr Benson:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that. No. I appreciate that very much.
Dr Benson:And and I wanna start with the conceptual framing of social justice math. And I'm just gonna play the role of your, you know, 20 year math teacher who's been who's mass who've mastered the technical skills of teaching math. Right? And they're like social justice math, and this is a political climate. Like, what's this woke ideology make its way into math?
Dr Benson:You know, I'm a master math teacher. Why do I need to be familiar with infusing social justice into my mathematic lessons? It doesn't make any sense to me. So, Carrie, can you make it make sense?
Dr. Kari Kokka:Sure. I think we can tag team on this. I can give a a definition, and I think Michelle can help with the you know, how you would respond to that. So social justice math is when we are investigating social injustices using dominant mathematics. And so whenever I'm talking about the math that we see in school textbooks, what's tested on exams, we normally just refer to that as mathematics, but there are lots of different types of mathematics.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Right? So I refer to that as the dominant mathematics. So we're using school math, dominant math in order to investigate social injustices. We could think about police brutality, COVID statistics, which communities were hit the hardest, driving while black or brown. There's so many different inequities that we need mathematics in order to investigate.
Dr. Kari Kokka:And then through my work in Michelle's classroom and another teacher's classroom, I've also theorized so not only having our our dominant math goals and our social justice goals, but also having affective goals for how we want students to feel in the classroom. So do we want to use trauma informed care practices? Do we want our students to feel more confident about the dominant math? Do we want our students to feel empathy for people? So if if the students are privileged and they're doing social justice math, do we want them to feel empathy for others and then be able to take action in solidarity with folks who are organizing?
Dr. Kari Kokka:So that's kind of like a basic definition, and then I'll let Michelle answer that other question of, you know, how you would respond to the experienced teacher.
Michelle Cody:Yeah. So for me, social justice math is just, like, helping students to use critical thinking skills. I mean, you turn on the news all the time, and, like, they always present you numbers. And these numbers are always used to tell the story that they wanna tell. And it's not the numbers that they show you.
Michelle Cody:It's the numbers that don't show you that you should be looking at. So if you're telling me that, like, 60% of this is happening and you're saying it this specific way, a, where's the other 40% believing, and why are you asking this specific way? Is the specific ways why you get this 60%. And so to allow students to think critically around the data that's being presented to them, it's not just beneficial to, like, communities of colors or traditionally marginalized group. It's good for everybody.
Michelle Cody:It's good for us to be able to sit there and have critical conversations about what is being presented to us. As far as the 20 year old vet who's like, I've mastered the math skills, I would say to them, it's like, we are behind as a nation when it comes to mathematical mastery and understanding. So, yes, you may have been able to talk these kids, how to figure out the the theorem, but what's the use of that if they can't apply it to something effective, like creating spaces like gardens inside of, like, a small community space? So it's about using the practicality of math to apply it to life so that it it can anchor. Everyone knows that your brain grows when it takes old information and attach it to new information.
Michelle Cody:And so we have babies who are learning math every year, and it's not sinking to anything. They're just going through the motions to pass this test, to to to get through to the next mathematical educate mathematical world. And so you're not seeing anybody who's actually pushing. And if you wanna change who's in the math field, if you wanna change what our engineers look like, what our scientists look like, we have to make sure that we make this math make sense, and so we make it make sense. And I'm talking about as young as, like, kindergarten, 1st grade.
Michelle Cody:Like, how can we use mathematical practices and understanding of their own and when we use the word social injustices, it doesn't even have to be as salacious as police brutality because that's a big concept for a kindergartner to kinda understand. It could be as small as, like, what kind of grocery stores are in your neighborhood? How far do you have to walk to get to school? How far do you have to walk to get to the, hospital or to get to a doctor's office? All of these things impact people's health.
Michelle Cody:Right? And so social justice also talks about the health of people. And we're talking about mental health. We're talking about emotional health. We're talking about financial health.
Michelle Cody:We're talking all around spiritual health. And so, I think that what people hear, like social justice math and, you know, DEI, they always wanna go to this far, like, left far left concept, and it's just like, all of these things are affecting everyone's life. Everyone is impacted by these things. And so if we can have these critical conversations, if we can be chill with each other, and we can sit at the table, and we can see what we can to make this world better for not just us, but for our children's children's children, they were doing the work that we need to to do.
Dr Benson:I appreciate that. And I think what's important, what I took from what both you all shared is that it's not a partisan concept. Right? Social justice matters applicable to everyone to understand their social context in a very deep way. That's just not divorced from these sort of hanging, like you say, Michelle, just trying to learn these concepts to pass a test.
Dr Benson:Right? That we don't have application, but using it to understand our sort of societal context in a way where we can apply that to make our world a better place regardless of your background, race, gender, religious affiliation, sexual identity that using it to understand our our social context. And so in in basic terms, it's applying math concepts in the real world environment for the betterment of society. That's what, you know, I would think in my mind as a as a response to the educators. Like, well, you know, I just wanna teach, you know, numeracy and how to count and, you know, in different theorems.
Michelle Cody:Yeah. Because what you count on, Will, ask them, like, what are you counting? Like, like, what are we teaching them? Like, yes. Let's teach them numeracy, and what are they counting?
Michelle Cody:Like, let's let's use that to make it make sense. Everything has come inside of our classroom. Our classrooms are no longer safe spaces, and so you have to arm your students with all the tools that they need to go out there to, like, protect themselves, to protect their community, to protect their family. And when I use the word protection, I'm not talking about in a violent way. I'm talking about as an educational tool.
Michelle Cody:Like, sharpen the tools in their brains that they already have so they can do what they need to do to be as successful as they need to be. Sorry, doctor Benson. I get, like, a little, you know
Dr Benson:Bring the passion. No. We love it. We love it. And and transitioning to to protection.
Dr Benson:You know? Your your article, educational facials, was was was it was very therapeutic for me to read the article. Right? Because as a career educator who's been spent time in the classroom, being in being in middle school, AP, being a high school principal, one of very few black people in the building. Your the experiences that you outlined in sort of trying to survive the racial environment of the school as one of very few is very real, especially when, you know, in the field that the the work that we do, the folks have their DEI goals.
Dr Benson:They always say we wanna diversify our teaching staff. Right? And their goal is just to get more brown people in the building. That is their goal. Right?
Dr Benson:And predominantly white environment is to get brown people in here without understanding the broader context of what you are asking for of this brown person, you know, that you put in in this environment that is not accustomed to having an epistemology or ways of thinking and knowing amongst this brown person who's gonna see all the racial microaggressions that happen to the kids that as well as we as brown educators have to absorb from our colleagues, you know, while we have to teach at the same time. And so where did this this idea, of educational facials come from? Like, what what and then you explained it in the article, but, I think it's fitting to sort of use this as a, as as a frame to understand the the, environment of your typical, educator of color in predominantly white environments. But how did you sort of theorize educational facials?
Michelle Cody:Oh, yeah. So it's actually an old concept. I was in a teacher for social justice conference, and I was listening to, a partition a practitioner by the name of Tiffany. And I don't even know what she was talking about, but I didn't raise my hand, and I was just like, I feel like being in these spaces is like an educational facial. Being in spaces that help you take off the grind and the layering of all the things that you in that you encounter being inside of the world of education.
Michelle Cody:And so you you wanna put yourself in spaces to, like, take like, if you wanna like, I'm really into my face. It don't look like like, I'm really into, like, face cream stuff right now because I got a little stuff going on around in my my face, and it's just like so I'm reading all this stuff. Like, how do you keep, like, your hyper pigmentation up? And what about, like, exposure to the sun? Because the sun is everywhere.
Michelle Cody:Right? You're always gonna have exposure to the sun. How do you combat exposure to sun? What kind of, like, you know, sunscreen and sunblock and moisturizer? Do I use day cream?
Michelle Cody:Do I use night cream? Like, how do I exfoliate the skin? And it's like this whole big, like like, menu of things to do in order to, like, help me get to where I want to be or to miss maintain the skin that I want to maintain. And so that that definitely aligns to what you are as a teacher. Like, when we go into the world of education, most of us are, like, and we're like, yo.
Michelle Cody:We're gonna just, like, we're just gonna get inside the classroom, and we're just gonna be up there, and we're gonna be, like, 1 +1equals2. And then Johnny's gonna raise his hands, like, because of you, I'm now gonna become a doctor because you told me 1 +1 is 2. And you're like, yes, Johnny. And you're like, yes, miss Claudia. And we're like, woo.
Michelle Cody:Right? Because that's the thing that's sold to you, in grad school, and it's kinda still sold to you in grad school now. And and what you don't realize is, like, there's all these other factors that stop you from being able to articulate appropriately to Johnny that one plus one equals 2. There's also all these factors that stop Johnny to be able to absorb what you're trying to tell them about 1 +1 equals 2. And so the whole concept around these educational facials in its inception was, like, putting yourself into spaces that will allow you to get the hearing that you need as an educator so that you don't do harm.
Michelle Cody:Right? It's like the hip Hippocratic oath for doctors is do no harm. That same thing should be applied to teachers, Carrie.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Yeah. So so what we did so based off of that concept and you know what's so funny? I I read I reread our article this morning, and, I just I was like, oh, this is a Michelle and I did a great job. This is an article. Sometimes when you write things, you know, and you publish them, and you're like, I'm not sure if I like that article that I published.
Dr. Kari Kokka:But I was reinspired, also by reading your personal narrative, Michelle. So what we both did was we wrote our personal narratives. We talked about our personal narratives together. So based on this concept that Michelle first theorized in 2015 at the Teachers for Social Justice Conference, we, articulated these different components. So an educational facial includes analysis of one's climate, situation, and our body, mind, spirit.
Dr. Kari Kokka:So we're trying to reunite our body, mind, and spirit that, you know, Western conceptualizations of knowledge try to pull apart. We want to cleanse and extract the toxins from our skin, so white supremacy, cisheteropatriarchy, ableism, capitalism, imperialism. And then we want to be able to heal and protect our skin or our body, mind, spirit. And so when we have, Michelle calls it this protective coating, so that we can reenter a harmful space, and we always want to do this in community with others because I feel like it's so easy to gaslight ourselves, to think, like, oh, it's not that bad, or, oh, even if I switched institutions, I bet you it's gonna be just as bad. Right, and so when we're in community, we have others who can prevent us from gaslighting ourselves to say, yes, what you feel is real, it's not in your head, you're not making it up, you're not overreacting.
Dr. Kari Kokka:And so, yeah, so in the article, we share our personal narratives, and then we also give this menu of educational facials, like the introductory facial, going to a justice oriented conference, the do it yourself educational facial. And so what we hope what we really hope so it's really great to hear, doctor Benson, that you felt seen and heard through reading that article because of your own experience. I do have a question. I know this is your your your podcast, and you're asking us questions. I know.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Okay. I have a question. So I listened to your, and it's related to the educational facials. So I listened to your, 5 common questions podcast episode, and and, one of the things that you talked about was when there is a resistant colleague and you want to, handle the situation with empathy. Right?
Dr. Kari Kokka:Like, where are they coming from? Why do they feel this way? And I I guess I'm curious, with your own experience in higher education, when when we experience that resistance, do you feel like the empathy strategy, I don't wanna say always works, but I guess I guess you have the same advice in a higher ed setting.
Dr Benson:Yeah. I appreciate, I mean, reading your story and also reading your story, Michelle, about, you know, your upbringing and sort of being seen as a person who's an who's an Oreo. Like, I experienced the same thing. Right? And I don't have empathy for those who are of the same skin color, who are calling you Oreo just because you speak right.
Dr Benson:You know? You speak a different vernacular, and you're in AP classes. Right? But the the concept of of empathy helps us. I mean, and I think it goes along with the concept of of thinking about educational facial.
Dr Benson:Right? Because if we learn to empathize, regardless of if we agree with the person or not, we at least need to understand where they might be coming from. Because in most cases, even academia, you know, and I had a horrific experience as an assistant professor, an absolutely horrific experience when I joined the University of of North Carolina at Charlotte in a department that had you know, it was, like, 90% white, and I was a new shiny professor who came in. I'm a I'm a, historically, a teacher, and I love teaching. And so when they gave me the hardest class to teach, the law and policy classes, and I rocked it.
Dr Benson:You know, I loved it. You know, I'm a teacher. I I I taught it through an anti racist lens, and that's what we did. And I had students who came back class after class who wanted to continue to take classes with me. And it was a threat to several of my colleagues because they are the new shiny young professor.
Dr Benson:Right? But I'm coming in. I'm, you know, I'm the diversity hire according to them. You know, I'm getting a lot of the attention from the university. I'm the Harvard guy.
Dr Benson:Right? Which that just intimidates people who, you know, well, my my degree is just as good as yours. Like, I never said your degree wasn't as good as mine. But their their level of just feeling their their own self esteem is affected just by my presence. Right?
Dr Benson:And even though in my experience during my 3rd year review, one of the the the, one of my colleagues chose to come after me to try to, you know, get me to not be reappointed. Empathy helped me really get through it because it was traumatic. And, she felt threatened by me. And, and in the sort of the hierarchy of of of of of, higher education because it's a very strict hierarchy. And, you know, old white men control everything.
Dr Benson:It's it's basically a a, a fraternity. Mhmm. Everything's peer reviewed. So it's really it's a moving target. Right?
Dr Benson:And so that's the the environment where we live in, and we are a threat because we are you know, folks who do this type of work are countercultural to people's normalcy. And so for me, it didn't make it you know, it didn't all go away because I was empathetic. But I believe that in order to heal ourselves, we must not demonize though who we who we see as enemies, but yet understand that it comes from even though we don't agree a noble place would might have to deal with their brokenness.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Yeah. Yeah. No. I I mean, I agree with you. I think that empathy is helpful, for sure, to understand those perspectives.
Dr. Kari Kokka:In my experience, you know, I've I've been teaching since 99. So 11 years in the k twelve space. And in my experience, higher ed has just such a different power dynamic. The power die I mean, it's like you can cut the air. Right?
Dr. Kari Kokka:It's like it's palpable, and the power that some folks have over you, is very different, I think, than in a k twelve space. So I guess I was just thanks for answering. I was just curious because I know that you have, you know, transitioned out of that space, and you also have previous k twelve experience.
Dr Benson:Oh, absolutely. I mean, this this could be a whole another podcast.
Dr. Kari Kokka:I know.
Dr Benson:I know. I have colleagues. My wife's an academic. You know, she's a black academic who studies race in the Caribbean. And, you know, her and her colleagues of black women, they have this catharsis amongst each other just because the the white heteropatriarchy, I think I used that term, right, of higher education.
Dr Benson:You know? And you could fit the number of of I mean, percentage of, what I'm looking in the sort of the letters and sciences area. You could fit it on, like, the the tip of a thimble. Right? Because it's it's, like, negligible, you know, compared to the number of white people as a whole in in higher education.
Dr Benson:Right? And they wanna keep that space, and they can because there's really no governance. And, and once you're tenured, you can pretty much do anything. Like, as you know, associate professor Thank you. Climate.
Dr Benson:Right? Especially when we're thinking about this social justice infeasement into sort of the babies. Right? Because you see a lot of, like, mothers for liberty or these folks who come to school board meetings. Like, we don't want student students indoctrinated.
Dr Benson:They're already being indoctrinated. Right? White supremacy is an indoctrinated. That's already there. Right?
Dr Benson:And so we are already indoctrinating not just your kids, but our kids as well. And that that level of comfort with that just blind indoctrination is something that that is it's fearful for them because they feel it's a it's a curriculum in a way of thinking that they are afraid of. There's you know, a lot of folks who don't have exposure to 1, no approximation to people of color, no understanding of race and racism, no understanding of their of their privilege, often have high levels of anxiety, low levels of understanding. Right? They just don't have the stamina.
Dr Benson:So I empathize a lot with these folks that they're not doing it from a malicious place. Our most precious assets are our kids. And And these mothers are showing up even though they must they might say a lot of, like, really crazy things. It comes from a place of absolute fear and also comes from a place of care. Right?
Dr Benson:Even though we might disagree.
Michelle Cody:Like, that's the thing, though. This is this is the thing. When you are situated and satuated as a privileged person, you don't have to do the work to do to learn, to think, to grow, to develop because your path has been so, like, like, delineated and, like, so cleared for you that all you have to do was just walk. And so it's it's it's it's the, like, idea of, like, me walking down this path in a imagine, like, a cornfield. And so, like, you have this clear path in this cornfield, and so you just go in and you're going, and you kinda see, like, people experiencing obstacles.
Michelle Cody:Like, you you see somebody else kinda, like, checking and jiving and, like, actually trying to cut down the trees and try to figure out, and you're looking like, well, why are they experiencing this? The path is here. The path is ready to go. I don't have to think about it. And so when you don't have to think about the path, when you don't have to do the work, when you don't have to, like, really dig deep, then you don't find yourself like, you're saturated in the ignorance.
Michelle Cody:And I hear you. I definitely hear the fact that they they are scared, and it's just like so are we. But because of the way that we were raised and taught in the world the way the world has treated us, we have to use our fear as fuel for learning and understanding and navigating and adapting. And when you don't have to do that, when you're not given those tools, you use those fear as harm and as a tool of hate. And so, like, having, like, really, really strong conversations.
Michelle Cody:And, again, we're looking for former oppressors to be the ones that have those conversations, to put their bodies on the line both physically and mentally to do this work because black women have been put especially black women have been their black their lot their bodies on the line for a very, very long time, and we're tired, and we're done.
Dr Benson:So I I wanted to sort of, talk about how to apply this concept. I love this this word, whiteness management strategies. I'm like, that is something that should be on a shelf somewhere, you know, in the aisle in the grocery store. My whiteness management strategies can pick it up and apply it. And so I'm thinking about, especially in in terms of preservice.
Dr Benson:Right? Because the program that I was in, I was educating preservice administrators. You know? And Mhmm. You know, that that that professor of color tax that, you know, not only do you have your own students, but we have students from all over the college come because you're one of the few presses of color, and they look to you for guidance.
Dr Benson:Right? Not really in the classes, but that, you know, unpaid labor that we put in because, you know, we see these as all of our kids, and they come to us looking for mentorship. And so I'm thinking about how do you apply the concept of, you know, of of of educational facials in the preservice realm? You know, when we are sort of preparing educators to go in. Because we've been there.
Dr Benson:We're we're in it. You know? So how do we get folks to understand that this is a concept that you're gonna have to take with you, that you can't just go and stare at it. It's gonna be alright. It's not gonna be alright.
Dr Benson:Right? And you need to be prepared and have this in your toolbox. How do we go about doing that?
Dr. Kari Kokka:I can start, because, you know, I work with preservice teachers. Michelle works with preservice educators as well. I mean, so the whiteness management strategies that that really came from kind of contrasting my experiences at Harvard versus at my first, faculty appointment, where I had I had whiteness management strategies. I you know, it's like we took friends of color and I, we would take classes together, we would tag team, we would find white co conspirators to say, listen, we need you to raise your hand to respond. We can't always be the ones to respond, Or you need to have a side conversation with so and so because they made this problematic comment in class.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Right? And I would say in the pre service space, some of the things that I've done in terms of whiteness management am I answering the question? I'm gonna talk about whiteness management. Okay, so one of the things that I I have done in the past is, I once I am able to get some students who are on my side right? When I was at the University of Pittsburgh, I taught I mean, my classes were all white, like, no students of color.
Dr. Kari Kokka:There was one class, I had 5 black women, and then I had a few other classes with students of color. I had maybe 10 students of color total in 5 years, so it was all white students. So I would work very hard to get them to understand race, racism, white supremacy. Oftentimes, I had to start through gender injustice, for some of the women candidates to understand. Right?
Dr. Kari Kokka:And then what I would do was I once they were kind of on my side or understanding the importance of race and racism, I would invite them back. So I would invite former students to come speak to my current class so that they could tell my current students, yes, it's it's important to learn about race, racism, inequality, justice, social justice, math. I also would invite white colleagues sometimes to Zoom into class and do, you know, like, a q and a with them. Doctor Rick Ayers, who I co taught with at USF, ages ago when I was still a grad student, he has zoomed into a class. And then I've also and the this the other thing that I have done, and and this is, I think, not healthy necessarily because it is that I'm basically like using a tool of white supremacy, but I do tell them my own credentials, right, I tell them about my own experiences, teaching experience, because most academics have not had 11 years in the k-twelve classroom, and then I also tell them where I went to undergrad, masters, and my doctoral program.
Dr. Kari Kokka:I also have my principal certification too in New York state, although maybe it's expired now. So those are the things that I have done in in teacher ed. It's a lot different when you have students of color in your teacher ed program, so at UNLV, it's much more diverse, and so we have that common experience. Folks will talk about their community cultural wealth that they bring to the space, and it's just, it's like you can finally exhale and breathe and feel like you're in community. But but that would be some of my things that I have done in the past in terms of whiteness strategy whiteness management strategies and working with predominantly white, preservice candidates.
Michelle Cody:As someone who's kinda just like, I'm 10 years, just 10 years from finishing my, my, master's work in education. And I just wanna go back, like, some of the things that Affirming with Carrie saying, like, totally taking classes with other folks who are like minded in this space. But what I really want to stress to preservice teachers is, getting involved, and we talk about this in our podcast in our in our podcast and in our paper, finding teacher trainings, that are ran by teachers, reading these articles and reading these papers. I actually wrote my students a letter when I was in grad school, and, for the longest time, I would reread that letter at the beginning of the year. I also think about, like, small things.
Michelle Cody:Like, I I told this to new teachers who are struggling to get a gratitude chart around, like, good things that happened in the day and, like, always write them down because as a society, we're always negatively prone. And so by writing down those, like, brief things that happen, you'll see the jar start to accumulate. And so, like, if you find yourself, feeling overwhelmed, if you find yourself, as a pre service teacher, not knowing what to do, like, just journaling these things, of importance, if you believe in, like, meditating, finding yourself, like, understanding different cultures that are outside your space. If you know if especially if you're, like, a white woman or anybody, if you know that you're going into a school that's gonna be different from you. Actually doing some research prior, like, this is the community.
Michelle Cody:This is the space that I want to, be a part of. Like, how do I, like, learn about that community, learn about the space? So you write these things and you write these lessons. You make these connections. You find books.
Michelle Cody:Like, how do you diversify your library so that it's reflective of not just the same narrative? What's the that black girl the little black girl who started that library because she said every time she went to the library, all the books are about little white boys and their dogs. Like, how do you diversify, like, that kind of space? As a teacher, when you don't have the time, you don't have the, like, wherewithal, you have that stuff to kinda fall back to.
Dr Benson:Wonderful. Thank you for that. So the last question I have, and this is something so I use these podcasts also as teaching tools. Right? So I I assign these to some of our clients, And and a big part of who will be listening to this podcast are, HR directors, who are part who are putting sort of in front of, sometimes their DEI goals of diversifying their teaching force.
Dr Benson:Right? Because some of the our clients are folks who have brought in folks of color. They last 2 years. They leave. Right?
Dr Benson:This constant revolving door, and they're left dumbfounded that the environment is not sustainable to keep these educators of color. It's obvious to me, especially when I talk to the educators of color, they're like, oh, no. That was an oppressive space. You know? I I see my colleagues.
Dr Benson:I am the representative for all Brown kids in the building, and they don't understand when I try to explain to them about why this black mom is not trusting them with their child, and I have to be the emissary between them too. All this extra labor, that these people of color have to do with that. It's that's sort of expected actually coming in. Right? It's unwritten.
Dr Benson:You know? So when we say we wanna diversify, it's this unwritten list of responsibilities that we're expecting of this brown person, but we're not gonna put it in the job description, nor are we gonna compensate for it. Right? And so for those who are listening to this podcast and for, you know, for you all who understand sort of the context of educators of color, especially in predominantly white spaces, what is your advice to them about broadening their understanding of not just diversifying just for brown skin, but what is the homework that needs to be done to make the space suitable to receive an educator of color?
Michelle Cody:I'm a go first. So when I first became a teacher at SWSD, I'm putting her name this woman named Amy Chacon was in the HR department. And I don't know how Amy found me, but she had asked me to come up down to HR to talk about how they could go about getting more folks from HBCUs to come to SWC. So we had this whole conversation about it, and we were talking about it. And and was like, okay.
Michelle Cody:What do you think about this? Do you think about this? And so I'm I'm afraid, like, let let me tell you, girl. This is what I'm thinking. This is what I'm thinking.
Michelle Cody:And, then, like, a couple weeks later, she was like, hey. I have this panel that I would like you to sit on with, like, some educators, especially I was like, but I'm not I'm still in grad school. She's like, no. No. No.
Michelle Cody:Great. Great. This is what we're looking for. So I sat on this panel, and I talked during this panel. And, shout out to USF because actually my whole, like, the management of USF came through.
Michelle Cody:It was so cute to see, like, the dean and, like, all these professors, like, coming in supporting, like, me talking on this panel. And after the panel, she went around and she introduced me to some principals, and I was like, alright. And then, like, a week or two later, she's like, listen. I want you to become a teacher next year. And I was like, she's like, but I'm a help you through this.
Michelle Cody:And so she was just like, I think that you'll be, like, important to our space. And so I filled up the application, and, after I did all the application stuff, she was like, alright. I've already sent your application out to a couple of, principals, and as she said, here's some of the questions. Let's talk through some of the questions. What are you gonna say?
Michelle Cody:So she was, like, she put in the work to help to make sure that, like, I was feeling good. And so, like, after the interviews, she would call me. She's, like, how did the interview go? What do you think? How do you feel about the space?
Michelle Cody:I feel so supported, and then she visited me twice, right, during the school year. And I know that's a lot, but it was like she was invested and she has since left s SWSE, but your girl's still there. 11 years later, I'm still there, and it is a 100% because of the investment that Amy put in to me and making me feel good about being in this space.
Dr Benson:Thank you. Thank you. That's very, very specific examples about how to create a space that's suitable. Thank you. Carrie, what are your thoughts?
Dr. Kari Kokka:I'm gonna draw on what I learned from Luis Delgado, who was the principal at Vanguard High School during the time that I was there, 2001 to 2011. He has since passed, so rest in power to Lewis. Knew that was gonna happen. He was he was such an influential person in so many of our lives. He was our school principal.
Dr. Kari Kokka:He was, you know, a a father figure to many of our kids, and Luis cared about each of us as people. He was, Puerto Rican American. You know, he was from New York City. He, the thing that Luis did the best was he left us alone and let us do our jobs. Right?
Dr. Kari Kokka:He had a teacher leadership team, so we got to make decisions. We got to make decisions about who we wanted to hire, who we wanted to work with, what curriculum we wanted to use. The math team, we wanted to change the school schedule so that we had more common planning time. So Lewis supported us to do that so that we had more planning time for the for the math team. And so he he used to call it he used to call it trickle down leadership, and I don't think he really was trying to invoke, like, Reaganomics.
Dr. Kari Kokka:But what he really meant was that, you know, when you give teachers leadership, teachers will then do the same with their students. Right? So in the classroom, we're doing the same thing. We're having our students lead. Our students are the ones who are the leaders in the classroom.
Dr. Kari Kokka:We're not the ones with this, like, top down approach. Right? So he really believed in this grassroots approach to school leadership, and I I have been continuously inspired by him and all the work that he has done. And I would say, in a higher ed space, the the same thing. You need to leave people alone, and sometimes sometimes I think what school leaders don't understand is that sometimes we have colleagues who will go out of their way to mess with us and make our lives miserable.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Like, go out of their way. Spend time going out of their way just to mess with us. Like, I don't don't you have things to do? Don't you have articles to write, research to do, lessons to plan, papers to grade? I don't know.
Dr. Kari Kokka:But I think sometimes, you know, if school leaders can stop that from happening, I think that that can help, with folks of color to stay, in an institution. And I also think that there can be some monetary support as well. So one thing, actually, that I was able to receive was I received a stipend to support to give to a senior scholar to help, with my scholarship. So I was able to meet with a senior scholar at a different institution, and my institution compensated for them for their time and labor to meet with me. So I think that that was really helpful.
Dr. Kari Kokka:I think in a k twelve space, you know, folks can get funded to go to conferences, to go to PD. The creating balance in an unjust world conference on math and social justice, one of the things that we noticed was that we had very many independent schools, math teachers present because they had the funding to go. They had the institutional support. They had the subs to cover their classes. Right?
Dr. Kari Kokka:And that's how I got interested in what does social justice math look like in these spaces, because we need privileged folks also to be doing the work in solidarity to support folks of color and other marginalized folks doing the work. And I think that that, support for teachers, you know, or for any type of PD they want to do, I think is helpful. Because one thing I think I really did want to mention that I didn't mention earlier is that when we're talking about social justice math, we also are using research based pedagogical practices. So we're using cognitively demanding tasks, We are using complex instruction. We're using assessing and advancing questions if we wanna talk about the 5 practices.
Dr. Kari Kokka:So all of those research based things, we're still doing when we're using social justice mathematic.
Dr Benson:Wonderful. Well, thank you both for spending time. This has been a truly enlightening conversation for me, a therapeutic conversation, and I appreciate you taking time of your busy schedule to join us. This has been another episode of the Antiracism Leadership Institute Research and Practice podcast. I'd like to thank Michelle Cody and doctor Keri Koka for joining me today.
Dr Benson:If like to know more about them and the work and what they do, please follow their podcast, Critical Math Drop, available at criticalmathdrop.com, Spotify, Apple Podcast. The link to their podcast is will be available in the show notes. And, watch, follow, like, and, thank you so much for coming today.
Dr. Kari Kokka:Thank you.
Dr Benson:Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Anti Racism Leadership Institute podcast. Remember, the fight against racism starts with each and every one of us. Together, we can create inclusive environments in our schools that celebrate diversity and empower all students. For more information, visit our website at antiracisminstitute.com and subscribe to our channel. Join us next time as we continue to shine a light on the champions of change.
Dr Benson:Stay inspired, committed, and let's make a difference together.