0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book, 25 years of Ed Tech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura Pasquini.
0:15
Welcome to 2015. We're at chapter 22 digital badges. I'm with Joyce Seitzinger your for a conversation about everything, badging credentials, and to talk about what life was like in 2015. Welcome, Joyce.
0:29
Laura, thank you for having me.
0:32
So 2015 I it's funny, we were just reflecting back before I hit record. That was the year I came to visit you over a big hop over the pond in Australia.
0:43
Yes, that's right. And which led to a lot of fun. A lot of ukulele playing because I think I was I in Dallas the year before and gave you a ukulele Is that right? Yes. Thank you for letting me stay. Yes. best
1:03
gift ever. You all of you take lessons. If you stay with me. You have to up this gift. The ukulele was gifted a concert ukulele?
1:11
Yes, yeah, ukuleles are actually I believe that there's disproportion of people of edtech people who play the ukulele I think there's something about people who are willing to give things ago that is like a hallmark of, of the tech community. And I think it encourages them to pick up the ukulele and just give it a go.
1:35
I think you said the right. What I think it's the idea of if we're going to delve into the world of learning learning experience, then we better experience it ourselves and be okay with this awkward, unknown. So yes, he gives me a ukulele in 2014. I actually just finished my PhD then. So I could have the time to learn something new, which is great. And I went over to visit you. And this ties back to edtech is I joined this mishmash group of EdTech-ukestra orchestra, the guest we share music with and they're fun chords that we can play. And we actually had a jam session with Robin, Kim, & Rory. And it's it's where the textures go to play.
2:16
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's been it's been really fun. It's been a really great way of connecting people and having fun with people. Because I know that all of us at tech people like to talk about a tech but it's also fun to just do something else together.
2:32
Yeah, we'd like that more. So this this little banter, intros get to know you, 2015. We were both working in and around higher ed space. And I came over for an advising conference and stayed in Melbourne with y'all. And yeah, we were part of the online learning consortium went to that innovate conference with you in 2014. And so we were working in the midst of attack. And I brought you to talk about digital badges because I know they're really relevant in the two worlds, we were was it relevant for you in 2015, at that time, or maybe a bit. Um,
3:04
so in 2015, I was I was not at any particular University. But at the time, I was, together with my partner, Mark, we were running an a consultancy, consultancy learning design company, where we were basically, you know, consulting to universities, etc. And it was called academic tribe. And I remember getting super, super excited. But if my badges and digital badges and what they could bring, I really at the time really felt like it was one of the so I've worked in, I've worked in online learning and learning design since 1999. Just you know, just before y2k is when I got started in this field, kind of happened on it by accident. And, and I've always loved that, because it's always been evolving. You get to work on lots of different projects, you're always working on new things. So it's been it's been great. But to be honest, one of the digital badges came along I really felt like okay, this is really new. Because in a way, you know, if you think like about, like the Samer model, you know, like a lot of the work that I've been doing in terms of, you know, supporting people in moving to blended learning or online learning a lot of it is it's the same, but now it's digital, you know, like, here's your digital filing cabinet. Here's your you know, but this is the time where I really felt like, Alright, now we're really harnessing the power of this new technology. This is really the time where we are now able to do fundamental things that exist in higher education in a different way like credentialing. It is not just a piece of paper, there are limits with a piece of paper. There's limits to how much information it can hold. There's limits to how you can verify it. There's limits to how many people you can share it with. There's you know, Like, like, it is limited, it is a it is something that worked in the old system, but it's something that that can be improved upon in so many different ways. You know, if the diploma is too big, you know, like, there's just all these problems with it. And this really felt like the first time that that we were really starting to push the boundaries of what's possible in higher education, or Well, I'm talking about higher education because you know, that's, that's where I tend to work. But this really felt like this was the first time that we were really starting to harness the technology for what it could actually add to what we already do, and how it could change what we already do. So I found it very exciting. And for, I think, for about a year or a year and a half, I ran a little informal group called, oh bands, Open Badges across Australia and New Zealand, we would have like monthly zoom calls, or whatever calls they were, I remember, I think, oh, we put them on YouTube we used at the time it was a Google Hangouts. So we use Google Hangouts. And we would have interesting, you know, people who were also interested in digital badges come in and talk in and I actually, it was really a place that that or it was really a space that I was exploring, and I really just enjoyed it so much.
6:23
I love it. Okay, I'm gonna break down a few things. Because I don't know who's listening to this podcast. Besides my mom. I will say Sammer is that model that helps educators think about the role of technology in supporting learning. So it's substitution, augmentation, modification redefinition, I just want to break down acronyms because sometimes you get an alphabet soup in post secondary Ed Oban, I'm glad you defined because I like that's a single malt Scotch whisky, isn't it? I'm definitely gonna want to link to any of those kind of resources or archives you have, if you have anything from YouTube will share with our listeners, and what you said about the exciting piece, which I think really is key. And I love that this is a chapter is the accomplishments, skills and qualities and things that are really good at are. You're right, wrapped into these large degrees if you're graduating from a two or four year school, but what is the actual skill or the competency or the ability that you want to showcase. And there's so much that's talked about this chapter from metadata, which we talked about in previous chapters, and things that we might capture in a portfolio or on a blog. But this gives it some sort of, I guess, placeholder, or maybe it chunks it out and pulls out what that is beyond like a course or a whole curriculum. And I love that you got excited about it. What what are some of the things that you learned maybe from the work? You started doing an Open Badges? I think you did some of this with RMIT?
7:47
Well, so we do so yes. So currently, I am working as a director of Essex innovation. So you can experience innovation at RMIT online, or MIT online is the the digital arm I suppose, of the of the university. And we've been around since 2016. So not long after this checker. And yes, with digital badges and credentialing are a big part of how we recognize our students for the skills that they attain. Our digital badges sit at two levels, we students can get credentials for the short courses that they do with us. These are very much they're they're non accredited, but they are aimed at working professionals who want to upskill in new areas, all of our future skills courses are set in are aimed at providing skills in the future of work. So it's very much about closing the digital technology gap, and preparing people to successfully navigate the world of work.
8:57
So I think that's really critical, though, like I want to pause for a second because again, we don't recognize the relationship that learning formal learning entities like a university or college could have with professional associations, organizations, companies and firms is really critical. And we don't do that gap. So like badging, I never saw it as a replacement for a degree. And maybe there was that threat because it came popular, only a few schools in North America that I can think of, but it's not to replace it. It's just to say like, these are some things you actually can identify and share with an employer, or you as a potential like job searching candidate. What do you want to highlight? And this does come after, like, the chapter on MOOCs where people were learning things, but what was the proof of learning? So you wrap them It sounds like in some of these courses, or curriculum aspects to say this is also how you're verified with this badge? Is that
9:50
correct? Yeah, that's correct. And we encourage our students to, you know, to download their badge, obviously and after they've earned it, but also to share it Through their social media and share it to them LinkedIn and you know, as as that evidence of learning in that way it's been, you know, you were asking, like, what was the thing that got me so excited about it, I think it's that the, the idea that it becomes like a shorthand like a way of communicating that evidence of learning in a way that earlier, the higher ed community, the tech community was talking about e portfolio says, this is your evidence of learning, you'll be able to create an E portfolio that you can send to an employer, I think people underestimated just the the sheer volume of information and output that people create through, you know, through their time at a university. And how difficult it would be like just logistically how difficult it would be for an employer to actually you go through people's e portfolios, you would do that for maybe your final three candidates, right, you're not gonna do it for the 120 people that applied for the role. So in a way, what you want to have is you want to have a shorthand, but a trusted shorthand. Yeah, you know, more than just the bullet points on a LinkedIn profile. but less than an entire portfolio, and it has to be trusted, it has to be by a trusted name, it has to, because I think that's the thing that that and oh, my goodness, I can't remember now. But there was a woman in Scotland, who was doing a lot of work around getting recognition from employers for digital badging. So the work that she was doing was around getting employers to having open conversations with employers about how they would use digital badges. And what she found was that they needed it to that they needed to have a trust relationship with the issuer. So this is something that probably wasn't recognized earlier. But when somebody says, I have a bachelor's degree from Oxford University, or if I have a bachelor's degree from Melbourne University, you know, that immediately conjures something in an employer's mind, like it says something about who you are, what they can expect you to know, etc. Like, there's, it is a shorthand, but it's a very large shorthand, right? The the credential has the capability to do that at a smaller level, but it still needs to be issued by someone who is trustworthy. And so you need to, you need to almost, if you're going to do digital badges, say, at a national level, you almost need to recreate an entire system of trust.
12:39
Trust is huge. Actually, I'm glad you brought that up, because I was thinking about it in terms of like, what employers want to see. And they are wanting to work with education systems and bodies and schools individually, because they are looking for credentials that are lacking. There's a skills gap. We know this and the work. And I think you mentioned as we talk about the future of work, if you haven't read the future of jobs, reports from the World Economic Forum, to anything that you naturally kind of follow. We can do better with matching the need in the labor in the workforce with what we're training and teaching in our classrooms. There is sometimes a connection, we're doing better, but it is thinking about personalizing, making it performance based and competency based and being realistic to like, what's the word meaning? So I work in a field that we need more cloud computing folks or edge computing, folks now? Because that's where it is. And are they being taught these in computer science courses? Maybe, but maybe not. And so like, how do we partner with you and I both worked in online learning for many years now. Like, how do we do that officially, and who's that accrediting body and I think we underestimated it. And I know I did in higher ed at the time back in 2015. The value of official accreditation and credential into a workforce position is huge. And I think this chapter comes after portfolios, for good reason, and maybe something we'll continue to look at in the future like the word micro credential. I don't know if it's if it's used in this chapter. But that's what I'm thinking of now and thinking of digital badges where we go now.
14:12
Yeah, it's absolutely that that evidence of continued learning almost is so essential, and the ability to continue, you know, not just through doing the training, but actually collecting the credentials after you have after you're already in work. So I was speaking earlier about how RMIT online we've got basically like two levels of of digital credentials. And this really sets up the DNA of what we do because our vision is supporting a community of lifelong learners successfully navigating the world of work. And so it's not just about you do your degree with us and then you leave it's about we want to be there with you when you continue in your professional career. And so we have those future skills courses, which are like six to eight week courses around a specific, you know, future of work skills area. But we've also got smaller digital credentials that are really like, can be anywhere from like two to four to eight hours, they're very short, pick up this particular skill and you know, immediately begin applying it in the workplace. And that's, you know, that's much more versatile one, it's much easier for us to produce, obviously, to design etc. But you can be really, really responsive to a particular skills gap that emerges. Like, for instance, last year, we, we responded to the pandemic, you know, we very quickly put together three digital health courses, one all about providing telehealth services, because that's what was needed. And so having a more modularized system allows you to be more agile and to respond to what is actually needed in that workforce.
16:00
Well, I thought of it too when I, you know, quit my job in academia, and I decided to go into the workforce. I said, like, sure I have a degree. But what does that mean, if I'm going to go into an area of talent or something else, so like, I did a certification exam, a couple exams to go see that. And we have recognized things like project management, PMP, prints to certifications, we have things around Cisco Networking, like these are our accrediting bodies out there that we haven't really thought to partner better with. And I don't know if I thought I had to prove I have the skill set that someone else did. But it means something to get this sort of certification and leveling up of not that you've just done and studied it, but you've applied it in practice now, and then you've learned it and you can now show in performance and competency based that a future employer would be like, Oh, I recognize that that is an international ISO recommendation, like no ISO certification to I don't know, coaching is what I'm thinking about the international coaching Federation. So it's kind of a, an interesting concept, because I think more people and our learners are adult learners, and often older adults in transition, like they don't want to go back for a full degree, or they think a full degree when maybe they just need some other credential. And maybe this is where we're heading. I don't know. I hope maybe. Yeah,
17:14
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you think that just something you said just sparked for me, you know, like we have all these other accrediting bodies, etc. Do you think that the success of digital badges and you know, in the chapter Martin does refer to it like it's like the acceptance by by students has been MCs, the acceptance by his educational organizations has been mixed? Do you think that there is a limit to how much a new technology and a real new power can achieve? Because we are just because in order for it to be really successful, you would have to have almost like an entire cultural change across an entire national higher education system or something like that? Like, is it going to be limited? If your government doesn't actually Institute like a national digital skills matrix or something like that?
18:15
It's a great question. I was actually going to say like the campus level, or the organization, like I was going to say, like, You're great, because we come from, usually national, nationally, Australia, the UK, Canada, they will embrace the national initiative I have to think about at a university level, but how will a team member say, How dare you challenge my program you outside body because I think of, so I did mine and talent development, but organization Association for talent development, I did the formerly cplp, the Certified Professional and talent development is what it's called. And that's an exam and it's applied. And it's experiential. And I was like, I guess this is well recognized, but it was never pushed into my curriculum and learning in a Ph. D. program that this is also relevant. Or maybe I should do a project management training, or maybe I should do something else that certifies me as a UX designer. Yeah, really relevant for employer. So I would actually say maybe it's our selves, like maybe it's our staff and faculty and administrators, like maybe we need to step out of a we know all the knowledge and talk to like industry leaders, associations, and organizations that are like, these are the gaps. I think it's about recognizing that we all don't have the answer ourselves, and how can we more collaboratively and I saw this in a digital skills report I did for formerly NMC, rip, but now EDUCAUSE, they did a digital brief report for students five years out of their degree. And they said what are the gaps and there's lots of gaps that they have in digital skills is just an example. But they're going to need to tool up if they want to be relevant and they want to adapt to a changing work environment. So maybe we need to have more conversations with or musicians in various industries come together and hi read, you're an industry to me, we need to have open dialogue about what that looks like and how we're training and teaching and learning.
20:10
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's interesting, maybe, maybe you don't need a national uptake of these types of things. But maybe you can do it industry by industry, because I think there is something there around like the intersection between the curriculum that you have the skills matrix of the industry that you're targeting, and then where the student actually sits with their knowledge and achievements, right, and their skills and their experience and making sure that you can actually, you know, calibrate, across all you need to be able to calibrate across all three of those actors. But that does mean that you don't necessarily need to, you know, you're right, you don't necessarily need to go wholesale nationwide, although I believe New Zealand did adopt like a national standard for digital credentials, which you know, and at that time, back in 2015, at obinze, I was like, Oh, my God, this is so exciting. And also thinking, because I live previously lived in New Zealand, it was now living in Australia thinking, I wouldn't even know where to start in Australia with this. But in New Zealand, this small country, this would be a lot easier, you know, I would know that people do talk to in order to get that, and in fact, so they have. But yes, absolutely, you need to, you know, you might not need that that national buy in, but if but I think it is essential that you have a sector buy in by a particular industry sector, so that the skills, the skills matrix across that sector is well understood. And you can understand how to train people for it on the curriculum side and design for it on the curriculum side, so that you can then provide, you know, the learner who has to meet both of those who has to navigate both sides of that relationship can really calibrate where they sit on their path and the digital skills gaps that they still have. I think you're right. And
22:01
I like Cameron. And he's like, it's not the mainstream adoption that they thought it was going to be. But I do think that's a good call out like, I have a partner that works in cybersecurity, and they can't fill those jobs and those roles
22:12
in any any sector in the science.
22:16
Yeah, data science, the same. And the reason is, because we haven't found ways to better upskill. And I think that's where I think of that micro credentialing possibility. But maybe in partnership, like we've seen, it's funny this, like chapters merging with MOOCs merging with industry, we need to have some of those real conversations because as we go to like, recruit for roles, I'm thinking that my organization, like they're just not there. And we need to, like upskill them when they come, but figure out what's the potential level? Or do we go to the institutions and say, we really need you to be a target for getting people in for this skill, this technology disability? I think it's a combination. And I think there are some schools doing it well, around the world. We've just not figured it out, like I guess that trusting body, or will we go that back to the professional and vocational orgs? I wonder if that's the case. And maybe that is the case where some people are going these days?
23:13
Yeah. I know that we did some work here in Australia. So back, back in 2015, and 2016, maybe going into 2016, we did some work with one of the accrediting bodies here in Australia called the Australian Institute for training and development. I, you know, got on my hobbyhorse and did a keynote for them at one of their conferences, about batches and about what all the things that he could bring. Because, like I said, I was really excited about it. And, and they they heard it, and they came to us and said, let's do this, you know, we already have a training program. We already have, you know, ways that we run those workshops. You know, it's well recognized. But this is the final bit that's missing. We haven't got, you know, we send people a paper certificate. But, you know, we haven't got a digital badge that they can actually that people can keep that that establishes the trust relationship that has the metadata in it. And so, yeah, we did a project with them, and maybe, maybe it is those bodies. I think when those bodies already have that trust, own that trust in in the eyes of society, I think yes, that can work. I think that's difficult maybe in those new skills gaps like you haven't got the the accrediting bodies there. Yeah, the problem with places like well, what this is what we find, because we, you know, obviously since our courses are in the future of work, and our programs increasingly are as well. I don't know about you, but like I have the hardest time trying to fly. We have the hardest time trying to find cybersecurity experts who can be SMEs on our course builds because you know what, they're too busy being cybersecurity. Experts Same for data scientists. So I would say that they're probably too busy to be on accrediting bodies that swell.
25:08
Well, and they're also building as they go. Like, there's some things they're learning like this, this field and these other fields around information, or there's other like areas that are growing like, we know that that skills gap is there, because they're still learning as they go. And they don't have it fully defined yet, either. Yeah, like pass, Laura wrote this report with a horizon. So the horizon brief was really talking about how we, it's maybe it's the aspect of us going back to really emphasizing lifelong learning. And I wasn't the first one to say this. Other people have said this before probably George Siemens said something like, instead of a four year relationship with the university, we need to think about a 40 year relationship and meaning go badges or micro credentials or up ways to upskill really reinvent how we go about it, we just have to break down some of like, the old models of this as a semester or term. This is your certificate, like, into, like, maybe there's like, like skills that we can chunk and pull out? And I don't know, I think we have a lot to still learn. And I would love to know, people that are doing this, to be honest, and doing it. Well.
26:14
Yeah, there's a there was a great project that was done at my believe it was at Stanford University, where they tried to hypothesize like the future of the university, and I think they looked like 25 years out, they came up with several different models. But one of the models was really interesting, it was called the loop. And it was basically about, you know, students starting to, to study with a university. But yes, coming in and out and not being seen, they actually changed the idea. They challenged the term alumnus, and they talked about a populace instead. So instead of having alumni, you would have populated basically your population. You know, it's not the people don't leave, they they remain attached to your entity, and they keep coming back to you for learning. Absolutely. So I wouldn't have to be, but I think it that is another case of are we fighting such a structural thing of how people perceive higher education, that it's difficult to get that by, like, if you think about higher education, the structure of higher education is so embedded in society, the way that it works is such a crucial part of how society works. Can you challenge that?
27:32
Hey, I think we need to challenge it from within. And I know I'm not within right now. But I know this pandemic is having people think about it. And it's going to be those institutions and that are coming together as a community to say, let's rethink of what learning could look like and not what it's been. But what it could be. Um, I think it's funny that this chapter, initially saw, started talking about gamifying and leveling up with badges, because I actually thought that is
27:59
Oh, excited about that. But I
28:01
think it's got some bigger purpose of how do you live on and take these credentials with you. And it's kind of like portfolio means certification meets your digital self, professional self, and showcasing what you've done. I think it has such a value. And maybe that was a flaws, let's forget about gamifying it, but thinking about, like, what's going to make meaning in trusted skills, and abilities for work? And that's the ROI. When I've heard presidents been asked questions like, what's the ROI of this degree? Well, who knows? But the ROI of a digital badge might actually be worth something if someone is looking for their first rule or transitioning between a different career. I think that's something I'm thinking more about these days.
28:52
Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a really good point. I like what you just said that the the phrase you just use the digital self because you know, hearing you use that I was like, Oh, right, that's that's how I was thinking about it at the time as well as the like, this is the first time that you can really put these digital artifacts around yourself that's that that attached to the digital identity that you've built for yourself. And now you have these digital artifacts that can actually show you know the skills the knowledge, the experience that you have and and they those digital artifacts become that shorthand to somebody else to say, oh, here's this person and here's what they know and here's why. You know, they may be of interest to you or of to us or maybe this is you know, even on a personal level you know, maybe this is why I want to work with this person.
29:43
Yeah verified verified self it's kind of weird it's a weird space to be in
29:47
verified digital self. Our integral creepiness
29:50
Yes, I know and I get this and I think it's weird too. And I just want to say that like it can be creepy and is this you and now you online. I have so many issues with identity online and and how we evolve as professionals. So like I'm reading a good book called working identity right now. It's an old, old one. But the idea is, does it give people a place to experiment with growing themselves? I hope so. But like, you don't want to be locked in like, you're just this thing. I'm like, No, we're all becoming and evolving. And so, yeah, I have some issues with this to Joyce, so I don't know. Yeah, apparently.
30:24
Yeah, I know. So on the one hand, yes, exciting, on the other hand, a little creepy.
30:31
I do think I'm really grateful that Martin has this job during so we can like work in this murky middle and try and figure it out. I wonder if there is there anything missing you think from this chapter that you would have liked him to write about a bit more or something we should poke at for the community to think on?
30:47
Gosh, nothing immediately comes to mind not saying that it's complete. But um, I think we've covered most of the things that I thought, you know, that, that were presented about the badges?
30:58
Have you gotten a badge of certification lately? Oh, my God,
31:01
I'm doing a badge at the moment.
31:03
Tell me about that, then.
31:04
I'm not doing it very successfully. But I'm on leave next week, and I will power through this short course. So I said, I've recently transitioned roles. There you go. I'm an example, goodly traditional roles have gone from being in a role that I'm highly comfortable in, I was working as a director of learning design, I know learning design, I'm doing it for a long time, etc. I've moved into a role as Director of Student Experience, innovation, lots of things there that I know as well. But there's a few skills gaps that I identified for myself. And luckily, where I am at RMIT online, we, we get to drink our own champagne, as we like to say, and so I enrolled in one of our short courses, and, and I, I'm currently doing a business analytics and visualization course. Cool. Yeah. But like I said, I haven't had a lot of time for over the last few weeks, but I still got two weeks to finish it. So hopefully, on annual leave next week, I will power through and, and come out a business analytics guru.
32:17
Well, I think that's fantastic. I will say that just still excite me. And maybe this is like my girl scout or girl guide is what we call them in Canada, buy girl guide day, like getting like little badges say, I can do something like light a fire or hike this trail or build a tent, I don't know. And I do think they're kind of fun and rewarding. Like, I need to go get that excited when I got my CPT if I was like to get a certificate and an actual digital badge on my LinkedIn, and it says something, it communicates your value. And that's kind of something I want to call out is batching is not just fun and incentivizing. It gives you kind of your value and worth and what you're interested in doing professionally. I think that says a lot or how you're willing to interested in growing like you said, they're figuring out like, I don't know this thing, but I'm gonna learn it. And here's proof.
33:06
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You know what, you know what the other thing is, here's, here's the thing. Here's the other, you know, maybe more emotional reason to have more modularized credentials. You know, you want to say today, more often on your learning journey. You don't just want to say it after three years of hard of hard slog, you know, let's say Tada, every single time that somebody's achieved something,
33:33
we need small wins, I'm with you. We need more milestones and small wins along the way to incentivize and motivate This is all about like self directed learning, Joyce, that's it. People need to hire us to do more work on this. I think it's great. Yes,
33:46
that's right.
33:49
So before we wrap up, I always like to give questions, whether it's to Martin himself or the community on something you want to kind of pose to folks to think about the idea of digital badges, or anything related that we talked to that maybe we could chew on for the future, because I don't think they're entirely out of the way. So what's a question you'd like to pose to people around digital badges? As you ponder yours? I'll give you my question. What are the small pieces of whether you're teaching, learning, researching or in practice that you could break down? And yeah, like give recognition for at some point or say this competency has been met? And I don't think we think about this as often because we're like, it's all just part of this program, or this degree or this certificate. Well, could you do that for something on your staff team? Could you do something within a degree program that gives people little pieces of recognition that this is something you really value in your curriculum or as a research step? And I think that'd be really cool. And I don't know I don't want my badges might have been like I might have put in a mentoring one for someone that did peer mentoring or I might have put in like something around the lines of, yeah, they figured out Python. So we should have a lot more of my students earlier on in my courses, like things like that to say, You got this, you did this to maybe use it as a motivation. So are there ways you could think about creating bits of motivation and milestones for your own kind of work and practice is what I'm thinking about these days.
35:23
But it's really interesting. And, and then it comes back to, you know, how well so what you're, what you're saying, and what you're encouraging people to do goes back to, you know, the early days of digital badges and you know, credibly etc. And like anyone can create a badge. But I think what we've learned since then, is that a badges value, badges badges value is essentially linked to the system it exists within. So if it's me, Laura, giving you a badge today, after you know, for giving for doing a good podcast, that's nice for you, and that's motivating. But it doesn't count anything for anybody else. So So I would say, so my question then to the community would probably be actually more on the on the macro side of it is like, what are the limitations within your own system? What are the possibilities, but also the limitation within your own system? Of how far digital credentials can actually go? You know, and what can you do in order to embed it in your system? But also, you know, like, consider what the limitations actually are.
36:30
Yeah, like, what connections can you make to credentials that are out there, maybe, and where those gaps are, I would love us to do more work with understanding the workforce and making those connections to not just employability, but like, as people want to think about career, growth and development, I think that's
36:50
really important. So it's, I guess, I guess what I'm saying is like, if you're somebody who's working inside a university, or, you know, working in another educational context, is what are the systems that you need to tap into? Or that you can hook credentials into, rather than trying to set up a separate system that lives in parallel with it?
37:12
I like that choice. Find the people they're doing some of that now. and partner with collaborate with. Great. Alright, we solved badges. So Martin there you go, we're done.
37:22
Thank you for encouraging us to have this conversation I enjoyed. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to chat about this. And it's something that I've been thinking about for a while. So I'm glad that Yeah, and don't forget that we were having this conversation at 7am in the morning in Australia, so you know, you're welcome.
37:39
No, don't change. Don't change our focus. We'd love to know how your brain badging or microcredentials or any of this digital recognition into your life. So let us know tweet at us, send us a message, hey, you can even create an audio podcast. I might put that into this as well. So until next time, see you later.
37:56
Thanks, Laura.
37:59
You've been listening to between the chapters with your host Laura Pasquini. For more information for to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of edtech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca