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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.494)
Hello, Balu. Yes, thanks for being here. So I met you, for people who don't know who are listening, through the Feminist Podcast Collective, which is an organization or group I run. And we had a pitch fest and had black women come in and tell us about the things they speak on. And I loved you focus on early motherhood, navigating early motherhood and...You're a health and wellness coach. I think it seems like your work goes beyond just sort of what we may typically think of as like health and wellness. It's not just about losing weight, right?
Balungile Belz (00:39.64)
Yeah. Yes, definitely. Yeah, no. Yeah, so first of all, I'm a mom. I'm now a mom of two. But when I really got interested in this work, I was pregnant with my first son and navigated a really difficult fertility journey. And I don't know about you, but by the time I was thinking about having kids and became pregnant,
Becky Mollenkamp (00:43.931)
So tell me a little bit about what you do.
Balungile Belz (01:09.122)
There were so many questions that I realized I hadn't had before and just so many things that I wasn't aware of, like even navigating the fertility journey. In hindsight now, I think I wish I'd had somebody guiding me through that process.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:24.034)
Yeah, I think we're made to believe that you just, you have sex, you're have a baby. I think we're so afraid, we're made so afraid of it in this purity culture that we live in, right? That it seems like if a man breathes on us, we're gonna get pregnant. And that's not the case for everyone.
Balungile Belz (01:27.363)
yeah. yeah.
Balungile Belz (01:34.303)
Exactly.
Exactly. Exactly. That's the joke I always make. It's like the perception is that you sneeze and you catch a baby, right? But it didn't happen that way for me. And yeah, you mentioned the health and wellness coaching aspect of things, which I got into really after I left, you know, my corporate job and was grappling with how my pregnancy had gone, how the fertility journey had gone.
how my birthing experience had gone. And there were just so many aspects of my lifestyle and choices that I had made that I felt like needed more work. Now, the way that I approached it was I thought, well, women navigating early motherhood need a pregnancy coach or a fertility coach or even a postpartum coach. But I couldn't find any programs that focused on those specific aspects. If any...
If they exist, I would love to know. But back when I was looking, which was a few years ago, it just wasn't there. So I thought, let me go through the health and wellness coaching certification. The specific program I also went through was very much about, you know, food first, nature first, not about losing weight or crash diets or anything, but it was really about a holistic approach to your health and your wellness. And what was most important for me was
as defined by the individual, right? Because all of us are the experts in ourselves and our bodies and what we need the most. And so I loved that approach that they had where it was more a client led approach to what their vision of health and wellness truly meant. And I know that mine is very different from so many other people. So really enjoyed that journey. And that's really what got me started on this path of supporting moms.
Balungile Belz (03:31.862)
as it pertains to wellness and also as it pertains to envisioning a life for themselves where they feel supported, where they feel held in a way that truly matters for them.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:42.296)
Well, this series that we're doing for feminist founders, which obviously is for women or, well, really for anyone who identifies as someone who cares about equity and social justice who owns a business, And this summer we're doing a series for those folks around women's labor, the invisible labor that we carry as women. Pardon me. And the reason I wanted to have you on is because I think...
Balungile Belz (03:44.866)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (03:52.61)
Mm.
Balungile Belz (03:59.726)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:05.654)
all women, regardless of whether they have children or not, are partnered or not, we carry a lot of additional labor in the emotional realm often, but other ways. But that becomes compounded usually for women who become mothers, right?
because of the way that we're conditioned in our society, around caretaking, often so much of that falls on our shoulders and so we're carrying all this extra labor all the time. And you say that you like to speak about sort of these intersections of
motherhood, maternal identity, and entrepreneurship, and wellness, which is also that piece of like, how are we caring for ourselves as we're carrying all this extra weight? And I just wonder what you've, and I don't mean physical weight, I mean the weight of the things on our shoulders, but wondering what you've been discovering on this journey in this new role that you're in about that piece. As you're working with moms, what are you discovering about what they...
Balungile Belz (04:51.788)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:01.826)
just the weight that they're carrying, the invisible labor that maybe they haven't even been able to name and how that affects them.
Balungile Belz (05:08.814)
That's such a powerful way that you phrase that question because the naming is what I see over and over again that's being absent. First of all, there's the adage, you don't know what you don't know, which is just so true when it comes to this stage in so many women's lives. so it's about, and that's why I take it back to, I try to,
move away from the expectations, especially because a lot of moms in, you know, this generation tend to look towards social media and other influences out there that supposedly define what motherhood looks like, and that creates a lot of pressure. So I want to recognize that as well, because that is an influence, a very, very strong influence in many
women's lives. I try to push back against that and really go back to the individual. We all have different visions of and realities of what it means to be a woman in this world. We all have different experiences as it relates to how we want to mother in this world. And so really trying to focus on the individual and what
their intentions are for themselves has actually been really grounding, especially in my coaching work. And so many moms have revealed to me that they never thought that they could A, could have an opinion for themselves, irrespective of other people's beliefs and other people's views. And B, did not know that it was valid. Right? And when somebody is navigating the most
transformative, impactful, earth-shaking, identity-shattering time of their lives, the most important thing is that they feel grounded and that they feel like the perspective is valid. Otherwise, they're lost. Right? Like, who is going to do that work for you? And who is going to continue to hold you as you navigate this, but yourself? Like, it has to stop.
Balungile Belz (07:34.764)
with you and why you matter most. And so I think that's what's been most revealing for me and has made me so passionate about focusing on.
Women and particularly women navigating early motherhood especially just because I feel like this is the time when so much changes, so many social dynamics change, friendships change and suddenly women are feeling lonelier than they should be and this is the period of their lives where they need more support not less.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:12.212)
speak to that support thing because one of the you have a couple of statistics on your speaker sheet which is really awesome by the way and you talk about one third of women feeling unsupported by their health care provider during pregnancy that's an astonishing number and one fifth of women experiencing a perinatal mood or anxiety disorder but less half of those receiving care and I think
Balungile Belz (08:14.744)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (08:18.999)
You
Balungile Belz (08:29.709)
Mm-hmm.
Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:33.908)
we're talking about the labor that we are the the invisible loads that we're carrying, not just during pregnancy, but after, and especially in those first few years, as somebody who's been through it, I know that the fourth trimester is longer than any other trimester by far, right? That's in my case, it was the four years. But anyway, that that right, it's certainly the first couple while nursing and everything. But the support that we receive,
Balungile Belz (08:48.696)
That's such a good point, Becky. Yeah, we need to put that on the t-shirt or something. Yeah.
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (09:03.576)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:03.79)
is, especially here in America, that I'm speaking to American culture, astonishingly lacking, right? We don't have in this country any sort of mandated maternal leave, maternity leave. We have, you know, we know all the issues with health care by itself, which are compounded exponentially so for Black women with the, you know, all of the maternal rates, maternal and fetal death rates, child death rates being so much higher.
Balungile Belz (09:07.822)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:32.718)
We don't have any kind of healthcare or childcare that's provided or even discounted. it just all of it. And, you know, as right now we're living through SNAP benefits being taken away and Medicaid and just all of these issues that are happening that are very clear that we don't support women through pregnancy, let alone that very valuable and important and difficult time following childbirth for at least those first few years. I mean,
It doesn't really get easier, but it gets a little different once they're in school, but those first few years. So talk about that piece of the lack of support and what that does for women as far as the additional labor that we're carrying.
Balungile Belz (10:15.662)
Yeah, it just makes everything, I mean, we already have the responsibility, the greatest responsibility in the world, which is giving birth to and raising the next generation. Sometimes I stop and think about the enormity of that responsibility because the children, as you and I are sitting here having a conversation, our children will maybe one day come up.
you know, come across one another and have to deal with each other. And how they deal with each other is influenced by how we've raised them. Like, I just wish more people would sit with that and think about workplace dynamics and, you know, drama, like what's happening in my neighborhood right now, where there's potential racism and racist, you know, things happening and just how all of those adults were children one day that were being raised by mothers like us.
in opposition. And so put aside that enormous responsibility, the pressure and all that comes with it. You want to compound that by not supporting her economically, know, or financially by showing up for her. One of the things that, and I appreciate you sharing the statistics because the awareness is so important, but I've seen it
just in my own life as well. And, you know, happy to share about that because I also go back to how all of our unique circumstances are so different and
whether privileged or not, whether, no matter where you live, what race you are, we're all dealing with some version of difficult. You know, I'm an immigrant. When I became pregnant, I really thought about flying back home to give birth after I saw South Africa.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:17.292)
where you were it was home.
Balungile Belz (12:22.37)
I read the statistics about the black maternal mortality rate in the US and I thought, then, know, the pandemic and who wants to be stuck behind a border with a baby. But really it scared me. It scared me. And it scared me in ways that my predominantly white colleagues wouldn't necessarily even consider. Right. Or things like what kind of support
I need during the pregnancy, during the birthing experience, and even postpartum, my husband and I had never had a baby, but neither of us had had a baby, and so we hired a doula because my family doesn't live close to me, I didn't have my mom with me, but I wanted somebody who could kind of hold my hand during the birthing process specifically and support me in a way that I didn't even know how I needed.
Right? So there's just so much figuring out that we're doing even when we're making decisions. With my first I didn't have a doula because I felt like I kind of knew what was going. Another thing is the first time around I gave birth in Illinois. The second time around I gave birth in Indiana. Completely different state laws.
completely different support systems from the moment you step into the hospital. Completely different experiences. And by then, you know, with the second, I had a toddler. My husband travels a lot for work. He didn't get any. Well, I think he got maybe a weekend or something equivalent to a weekend, you know, parental leave.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:17.88)
by the way, a weekend, he should have a weekend anyway.
Balungile Belz (14:20.938)
Yeah, it was like a week or something. It amounted to not much. Which that also has to change, by the way.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:28.558)
Absolutely paternal leave paternity leave is also something that we need to have in this country or like they do in Western Europe which is there's leave and the Parents whoever the parents are that are involved in the can decide how they use it amongst them, which is very smart
Balungile Belz (14:34.54)
Yes! Yeah.
Balungile Belz (14:40.756)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's me with a toddler and a newborn.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:47.434)
Mm-hmm. And a traveling partner and your family in another on another car. That's tough.
Balungile Belz (14:51.404)
Hello. Thank goodness my mom, my amazing mom got on a plane and came over and you know, about a week after the baby was born. But, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:02.382)
And Baldu doesn't that's the thing though too, it's the moms, right? our, I couldn't have, especially in this country, in most countries, even countries with universal healthcare, when you are self-employed, it is treated very differently, right? Because it is your employer often that's paying into a lot of these systems until if you're self-employed, often you're on your own. And that's certainly the case here where you don't get, there's no leave because it's just you, like it's very, right? And I understand that problem.
Balungile Belz (15:11.34)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (15:25.386)
my gosh, yes, Vicky, that's such a good point. That's such a good point, because I mentioned I'd left my W2, and by then I was running my small business, BirthOrder, which I've since closed, but basically it was an online shop for pregnancy postpartum in addition to the coaching. And so I'm thinking, you know, I'm coaching clients, my belly's swollen, I'm getting close to my due date, now I'm like, I don't know what to do about this work thing. Some of my clients are pregnant themselves.
And now I'm like, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:56.054)
I was working in the hospital the morning after giving birth because my son came early. I wasn't ready. so I, and I don't, there's no coworker to hand things off to. There's no boss to take over. It's me and I have responsibilities and that income matters. So that's, know, and then after that, I couldn't have continued to function if I didn't have my mom because I didn't have the kind of money to put my child into daycare and also
Balungile Belz (16:04.842)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:22.508)
I didn't want to, he was so little and early. And if it wasn't for the mothers in my life, my mom, my mother-in-law stepping up, I wouldn't have been able to function. And it speaks a lot to the fact that it's again on the women. So yes, it's on mothers when we're new mothers, but often also onto the grandmothers. If you're privileged enough to have that kind of support network, which many people don't, then they're left to figure it all out. And we wonder why.
Balungile Belz (16:32.206)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (16:39.458)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:48.3)
We have so many issues with, you know, we're taking away SNAP benefits for moms who are trying to just figure out how to feed their kids. Because if you're not privileged enough, know, lucky enough, and or maybe not lucky, but if you don't have a partner, if you don't have those support networks from family, many people don't, if you don't come from any kind of generational wealth, how do you function? How do you function when you're not given any maternal leave, you don't have any access to, you know, affordable daycare for your children? It's a near impossibility.
Balungile Belz (17:16.524)
Yeah, you don't function, at least you don't function well, right? Exactly, exactly. And I want to speak more and share more about the different versions of support that are available as well. When I was preparing for our second, very well-meaning friends would say, why don't you just get a night nurse? Or why don't you just get like...
Becky Mollenkamp (17:22.19)
And our health suffers too, mental health, physical health.
Balungile Belz (17:45.774)
a postpartum dealer or something. I was like, well, no, all of those are completely valid and important, you know, jobs and forms of support, but that wasn't the kind of support that I needed personally. Like I, I love to keep my kids close to me, you know.
I even in the hospital, like I didn't want to send my baby to the nursery. I was like, excuse me. I've waited nine months to see you. I want to see you at all times, you know, but we're all different, right? That's just me. So the calculation that I made, Becky, was I was like, okay, I'm going to have the toddler. I'm going to have to be doing some work stuff and I want the newborn. That feels like a lot. I also know that we all need to eat and we all need to.
like stay fed and eat nutritious food. So I actually went online and I found a cook. I found a mom who was you know previously a chef at somewhere she started her own business as a postpartum cook to support moms who were navigating postpartum but needed that kind of help. And I went first of all yes brilliant I mean genius idea and secondly sign me up sign me up.
Because I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it myself.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:08.728)
Yeah, well I'll find out there's people who will come and do your laundry. Like that's amazing. Now obviously what we're talking about here involves a lot of privilege, right, to be able afford these things. So I wanna, let's say that, acknowledge. And another piece of it though, beyond just the privilege of being able to afford these things is the internal permission to take, to ask for and receive that help. And I find so often because of so much of the conditioning that we receive, we don't think we're allowed to ask for help.
Balungile Belz (19:12.706)
Yeah, I know.
Balungile Belz (19:17.632)
Yeah, for sure.
Yes.
Balungile Belz (19:26.477)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:37.528)
We feel like we're being lazy, selfish, greedy, bad, whatever the words are, if we're like asking somebody to do our laundry, asking somebody to cook for us when we can do it ourselves. Like who are we to do that? Is that something you find a lot with the women you're working with? This just like inability to give themselves the permission slip to receive help?
Balungile Belz (19:58.072)
Yeah, it's, it's, my, are my needs valid? You know, is that, and that's, and that's the problem with seeking external validation is because few people truly understand your unique situation and what, you know, when you're lying in bed at night, what worries you? You know, we, we post online and on social media and we have all of these thoughtful ways that we present ourselves in the business world, but nobody really knows what's in your heart.
and what you so desperately need to be able to get up the next day and keep on going besides you. And maybe a therapist if you have one. Right? And so that's why I keep going on to, going back to like the individual understanding that their perspective, their needs and what they require for their life is completely valid.
And there are different kinds of support. mean, even mentioning my cook, that came out of a need of her own, where she identified a gap and she, you know, spoke with friends and moms in her neighborhood and saw that, my goodness, this is a pervasive issue. Let me use my skills and see what I can do to support women navigating this part of their journey. What she also does...
And I just love talking about this because it's so different and I've never heard of it before. It's she also supports people who are recovering from major illnesses or surgeries. You know, I broke my ankle once and I know how limiting that is physically and how just so painful that experience can be where you can have access to somebody to help take care of you is so powerful.
This is what's so beautiful about a lot of businesses that come from a place of need is that they don't just benefit your immediate target market or your immediate customers. They also have additional benefits for other potential customers that you never even imagined. So I love that. I love that kind of way to think about solving problems in the business world.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:09.134)
I love it too. When you found out about this chef, where were you in your own journey? Was it something that felt like challenging to allow yourself that resource, to allow yourself that help, or were you at a place where it was like a no-brainer?
Balungile Belz (22:21.91)
yeah. yeah, for sure. I was like, let me do the calculations, you know, cause you still have to do calculations and it's, you know, what has to come out of the budget, right? It's not just like, yeah, let me add this, you know, full person and additional groceries. You know, you have to do the calculation. And for me, that was it. It's like, from a financial perspective, can we do this? I went back and forth.
Literally the day she came to our house to look at everything and look at the setup, the stove, the fridge, whatever. I said to my husband, I think we should cancel. I think we should just, this is not gonna, you know. He was like, no, you know. And so that is also what is wonderful is having loved ones who are close to you who maybe know what's in your heart and know what's best for you.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:00.174)
You
Balungile Belz (23:15.64)
to help nudge you in the direction that maybe you wouldn't permit yourself to go.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:20.238)
For sure. One of the things I wanted to make sure we talked about today, and I think this may relate to some of what we're talking about, because we're talking about support for ourselves in this time when we're dealing with all this additional weight on our shoulders, right? And you mentioned in the Pitch Fest that your sort of controversial take was that...
Balungile Belz (23:27.384)
Hmm.
Balungile Belz (23:39.214)
Ayyyy
Becky Mollenkamp (23:40.206)
It's not about it. It doesn't take a village. It's not about taking a village I think you said something like it's less about the village and more about like the village spirit or something So tell me more about what you mean because that's what we hear so often right with new moms It's like it takes a village it takes a village to raise a child and most of us don't have a village like we don't live in that kind of Society more so it sort of leaves you feeling like okay great It takes a village, but I don't have one so am I screwed now But so I'd love to hear what you have to say about that whole it takes a village attitude
Balungile Belz (23:49.112)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Balungile Belz (24:07.566)
Yeah, that's, I'm so glad you brought that up. I don't know. I'm still working on it in my head. Cause when I, when I share things like that, I'm always formulating theses and opinions and takes in my head. This is, this is a work in progress. I just want the listeners to know. But basically, you know, in the motherhood economy and in a lot of spaces that center mothers as consumers or just mothers in general, you'll hear it takes a village.
and or some version of like moms need a village and firstly
As somebody who grew up with the background that I did back in South Africa and has had exposure to real village dynamics, that term is really about the child, which is what you mentioned. It's actually, takes a village to raise a child, not that moms need a village for themselves. So that's my first hiccup with that.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:07.054)
right. I support you're right.
Balungile Belz (25:14.698)
So clearly moms need something else, right? And so if you look around and like you said, you feel like you don't have this village, like where is this village and you don't have access to one, it can feel depressing, it can feel very alienating, it can feel like, yeah, you're screwed, as you said. The other issue that I have with it is that our modern society and a lot of the issues that modern moms are dealing with are just different.
and their circumstances are different too. We live further apart. Many of us have families in different states, in different countries. let me speak about me personally, we've moved many times. And so it's hard to build community. We rely on a lot of virtual networks and virtual communities. And so...
Becky Mollenkamp (25:54.07)
or countries, continents, yeah.
Balungile Belz (26:12.838)
Some of my best friends who live on the East Coast and West Coast can't show up with a chicken pot pie on a Wednesday, you know, or change my baby's diaper or hold my baby while I take a shower. And so I think just this over reliance on it needs a village or we need a village, it just feels a little unrealistic sometimes given the circumstances we live in today in a modern society.
What we do need is the conversation that you were alluding to earlier about more structural support for parents, paid parental leave everywhere, like immediately, you know, access to affordable childcare, because this is our future, children are our future and we want them to be taken care of. And no parent wants to skimp on childcare.
Right? But it has to be affordable, for goodness sake.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:10.679)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:14.638)
affordable without affecting the quality. Because no mom wants to make that choice. And that's where so many of us end up. It's like, do I work and then have to put my child somewhere where I can't feel they're safe? Or do I say, I guess I can't work? And all of that entails.
Balungile Belz (27:17.635)
Exactly. And this is the thing.
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (27:31.064)
Yeah, and you know what infuriates me? I don't know, I might make some people uncomfortable. There's a lot of childcare options. There are a lot of childcare options that are not cheap, okay? Parents work hard, they make sacrifices to put their kids in these institutions or these daycare centers. And then you look at the pay of the teachers and the staff, and there's a huge discrepancy there. And...
I don't know if people are talking about this. I just don't hear that conversation often. So I'm lifting it up right now because that's part of the problem is price gouging on this side and then underpaying the workers on the other end. And in
Becky Mollenkamp (28:15.15)
And those care workers are almost always women. Yeah, right.
Balungile Belz (28:18.798)
Exactly. Who have their, who in many situations have their own children and so are disadvantaged from a 360 angle. You know, so I really want to lift this up and would love to have more of a conversation about that with anybody who's interested because it's been bothering me for quite a while. Parents do pay. Parents pay a lot. But the workers are not being compensated in the ways that they need. And that also leads to
many other issues and has knock-on effects that in some cases are to the detriment of the children.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:56.152)
Right? Because most childcare is for profit, unlike public schools, right? Which there's plenty of issues there as well. But there are rules in place to make sure that the people working are making at least a living wage in most cases. Right? But with, with childcare, you know, pre-K stuff, it's all for, not all for profit, but a great majority of it's for profit. It's not run by the government. It's not, there's not the same regulations. And when we, we know what happens when capitalism rears its ugly head, the people who own it, which are
Balungile Belz (28:58.636)
Right. Exactly.
Balungile Belz (29:16.715)
Exactly.
Balungile Belz (29:23.255)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:25.608)
generally going to be white men are making a lot of money by paying women and usually even more specifically women of color, nothing. Because care work is done primarily in this country by women and even more so by women of color and we don't value it.
Balungile Belz (29:34.231)
Yeah, yeah.
Balungile Belz (29:40.213)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And the owners are private equity firms, you know? And so, yeah, there's just a lot to think about there. And going back to, you know, the business angle, because of course I'm, you know, a business owner, I had to make the calculation. Okay. Okay. We'll keep the toddler in daycare. He started at about seven months, which still to me feels too early, you know, but.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:44.61)
Mm-hmm.
Balungile Belz (30:07.31)
way more than many, many mothers and fathers get.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:10.24)
And also we have to have space for ourselves. Not every woman is, you know, not everyone wants to be at home with children all day. And that is not feeling that's okay. But it's hard. I know how hard that decision is.
Balungile Belz (30:16.992)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. my goodness. Yeah. Thankfully I was, you know, when I had my first, like I mentioned, I had a W-2. I had very generous paid, paid leave, which I'm still grateful for to this day. With my second, I was all on my own. And so we kept the second in childcare, daycare, but my second is with me at home. And so...
That's been really interesting. For client calls and those kinds of meetings, I try to coordinate with my husband or coordinate with the babysitter so that my client time is dedicated to the client and I try to minimize disruptions. I just want to be respectful of that time. But for networking calls, partnership calls, that kind of thing, my baby's on my lap. A lot of people know my baby.
By now and you know, it's been most amazing I'll usually get on a call because I'm nursing my my baby or he's sitting on my lap or something Usually it's a mom on the other end of the call. She's doing the same thing
Becky Mollenkamp (31:27.36)
And when you're working with moms, they understand, they don't care. It's spaces where you're working with non-parents, non-primary caregivers, where you may receive the most sort of side eye or even comments. But that's another sort of systemic societal change that needs to happen, is this normalization of parenting while working.
Balungile Belz (31:33.335)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (31:53.398)
want people to separate these things so much, right? And yet how do we do that in a way that is good for both mother and child? It's nearly impossible. And what's wrong with, you know, baby coming in or a kid sitting in the other room doing homework or sitting in the same room doing homework? Like these things don't matter yet. We make them into an issue that doesn't need to be there. And that's another way we are sort of minimizing motherhood, parenting, women, caregiving.
Balungile Belz (31:56.419)
Mm-hmm.
Balungile Belz (32:02.051)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (32:16.76)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You see these other countries where kids are just a normal part of society. You see kids everywhere. Whereas I feel like, unfortunately in the US, you know, we're supposed to kind of hide our kids and disappear them. And kids are so annoying on airplanes. Kids are so annoying at restaurants. like, okay, so where should we hide these kids?
Becky Mollenkamp (32:36.046)
I'll pretend this is a fake on the-
Becky Mollenkamp (32:46.21)
Right.
Balungile Belz (32:46.222)
For 15, 20 hours a day.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:49.678)
It is, when you really think about it, it's so silly and yet, for many of us feel this need to, you know, to be professional, quote unquote, means that we have to act as if we don't even have children, right? That they don't exist. And it's interesting when you're in spaces with other mothers how...
Balungile Belz (32:58.999)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:07.372)
when someone you get that permission, then everyone feels this permission to go up that way, to talk about their kids, to talk about the struggles of running a business while having a kid, all of that. But in many spaces, we feel like we have to hide that away. And that's yet another form of that invisible labor we're doing, this like needing to show up differently in different spaces, to wear masks. That is exhausting work.
Balungile Belz (33:11.245)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (33:28.419)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (33:31.84)
It's exhausting. I'm so glad you used that word. And so for any managers or company business owners or people who work with moms, I promise you her ability to cook up a strategy or creatively solve problems or manage, even manage her time is not diminished by her status as a mother.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:56.856)
I would say it is improved by her status as a mother very often. I've never had to do more juggling and managing of time than now with a child who's organizing his play dates. A whole other level of time management.
Balungile Belz (34:08.218)
yeah, yeah, just this morning, Becky, you know, just I can run through what I accomplished this morning. I looked at myself when I got home to prepare, you know, to get ready to chat to you and I thought, I've done more between 7 a.m. and 11 a.m. than I used to do before I had kids.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:30.366)
day. What we do at Stair, especially, know, there's this other aspect of women who leave the workforce for a period of time to do primary caregiving, and then when they want to reenter the workforce, they're penalized for all that time away, as if none of that held value, which is also yet another way that we are, you know, not supporting, not caring for, not, and it's not even, it's like we should be
Balungile Belz (34:32.363)
All day.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:57.026)
There should be gratitude for mothering and yet instead it's like penalized. It's amazing.
Balungile Belz (35:01.774)
Yeah, yeah, I think there should be grace. There should be grace.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:07.704)
for sure.
Balungile Belz (35:13.934)
And the other side of it is completely valid too. I know many women who are childless by choice and honestly some days I go home.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:20.078)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:23.79)
I don't think you're an honest parent if you don't some days say like, was this the right choice?
Balungile Belz (35:29.026)
I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, yeah, you know? I know why.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:34.728)
Uh-huh. I think all of our choices should be honored and we should be given grace for all the choices. I think for those non-parents, hope, I mean, I hope for this conversation, my hope is that those who are parents, most especially those who are mothers or primary caregivers, that they hear inside of this.
Balungile Belz (35:47.95)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (35:55.798)
some validation for that weight they've been carrying. Because like you said, I think most people can't even name it. They feel like they're not allowed to name it or they're afraid of naming it. I'm not quite sure, but there's just like this feeling of, think it almost feels like I'm failing if I name it, right? Because women are supposed to be able to do it all and have it all. And if I can't hack it, right? If I can't hold all of this weight, then I'm failing somehow. And I want people to just, I'm hoping people hear from this validation of you're not alone.
what you're doing is too much, right? It is superhuman and we shouldn't be expected to do it. And that you're not failing, the systems are failing you, you're not failing. Yeah, and then for those people who are not those primary caregivers who maybe don't have children.
Balungile Belz (36:34.606)
Bingo.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:40.694)
to hopefully get a glimpse into what it looks like, what that super mom quote unquote that you think is sort of, wow, she's amazing, look at how she's doing at all. The stuff that you can't see, that weight. Like one of the things you mentioned, Beloo, that I thought was really interesting too was the weight that's involved in just the thinking, the 20 steps ahead like I do as well, where it's like, want my child who is a white boy, who's gonna become a white man. I think all the time about that.
and about who I wanna make sure he becomes and how I wanna see him interact with the world and how I want him to be part of the change that we wanna see happen in the world. like, some people might say, let that go, like who cares? But like, that's a heavy weight that's always there and I can't get rid of it.
Balungile Belz (37:26.83)
Letting it go is why we're in the situation we're in right now. Okay. Let's be clear. Your children, and it's not about putting the weight on the world on them. You know, my children are a baby and a toddler. They're young. So it's about age appropriate exposure, but to life and the realities of life. My children are also mixed-raced, you know? And so what does that mean to have a black mother who's an immigrant?
Becky Mollenkamp (37:47.203)
Right.
Balungile Belz (37:56.128)
and naturalized citizen and a white father who is an American citizen. How does that look like when we're moving the world separately and together as a unit? You know, we have to conscientize our kids. Otherwise, how are we ensuring that they are grounded by something? Why? Why is it important to let it go? Why? Anybody who suggests that, would say think deeply about
Why that is? Is it because of your own discomfort as you grapple with your lived experience and maybe your privilege as I try to do because I do have privilege? Even as an immigrant, in some ways I do have privilege, right? Like, no, do the uncomfortable work because if you don't, you're leaving that burden on your children to figure out without any grounding and without any guidance from you. And I don't think that that's fair.
It's hard enough. It's hard enough.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:57.612)
Yeah, it is. I think part of it and what we're hoping with the series is that it's not necessary. It's not about letting it go. It's not about trying to move through the world with it and just pretending like it's not there or something, but it's about saying, and this is actually something I want you to answer, it's that unmatch not making making the invisible visible. It's about unmasking and saying this is the weight I'm carrying because something changes when we do that.
Balungile Belz (39:06.659)
Mmm.
Balungile Belz (39:16.75)
Mm.
Balungile Belz (39:20.718)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:27.438)
And so I'm wondering, can you, for everyone, complete the sentence, I'll let you start the sentence this way. When my invisible labor becomes visible, I can. I'll give you a second to think about it, but I'd love if you could share what comes up for you.
Balungile Belz (39:32.214)
Balungile Belz (39:39.992)
Yeah.
That's a brilliant question.
Balungile Belz (39:57.73)
I don't want this to seem surface level, you but I feel like when my invisible labor becomes visible, I can truly connect.
with others in the ways that allowed me to experience peace and joy in my life. And I say that because at the end of the day we all need each other and we're all out our lives are intertwined anyway and so it's on us to decide how this is going to go down. Are you kidding? Are you kidding? I wish
Becky Mollenkamp (40:34.44)
and we all need peace and joy. Those aren't nice to haves, we need them.
Balungile Belz (40:43.386)
At least for myself, I try to think, how can I achieve peace and joy today? How can I provide it to others? And how can I hold myself accountable so that I am not disrupting the peace and joy of others?
Becky Mollenkamp (40:55.362)
Hmm, I love that.
Balungile Belz (40:58.478)
And that's not to say ignoring, for example, injustice in the world or whatever, but I feel like if that was a starting point, at least for some of us, most of us, we wouldn't see what's going on in the world right now.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:14.03)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (41:15.342)
Right. And so for me that connection is so important because when I reveal myself or reveal things about me or my life, when I share with my friends in vulnerable ways, it's about connecting. And it's also about going, I have experiences and then you'd be surprised. Somebody will say, oh my gosh, me too. And I had no idea. You know, I shared, I I tried to share about, you know, my issues within.
fertility and all of that and last week a friend of mine who's going through a very sad miscarriage said you know I thought about what you went through and now I'm coming to you because I think you might be able to understand and and that's that's it right that that's it and this yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (42:05.654)
Yeah, shame lives in the shadows, right? And if we, if when we shine the light, that shame, the stuff that says, am bad, I am failing goes away and we can start to say, it's not just me. And if it's not just me, and it's not just a personal feeling, then what is it? It's got to be something bigger. And certainly in this case of the invisible labor that we're carrying as women, and most especially as mothers, it is
Balungile Belz (42:15.063)
Yeah.
Mm.
Balungile Belz (42:21.676)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:29.74)
Definitely not an individual failing. There is at every point along the way in the maternal journey, there are systemic failures.
Balungile Belz (42:38.912)
At every, sometimes I think it's like a, it's deliberate. Sometimes I'm like, nah, nah, nah, nah. Now you know what you're doing or you know what you're not doing.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44.322)
I'm sure it is, personally, but.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:53.4)
For sure. I think if what we're going through right now tells us anything, it is absolutely that it's deliberate because we've gotten too full of ourselves. Things have gotten a little too nice and easy for us, so it's time to put it back so that we remember our place. That's very much what it feels like to me. That feels deliberate.
Balungile Belz (42:58.766)
Mm.
Balungile Belz (43:02.318)
Hmm.
Balungile Belz (43:05.94)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, like how can you say, okay, children are important for the survival of our country and our economy, but we're not going to support you in any meaningful way. That's, that's deliberate. That's calculated.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:25.71)
Mm-hmm. care about, we're the party of, you know, family and children, and yet we're the that gonna take away all the benefits that support those same people. yeah, it's tough.
Balungile Belz (43:28.162)
You
Balungile Belz (43:31.638)
yeah.
Right, right, yeah, we'll take away, stop, we'll take away, feed those children, cares for them?
Becky Mollenkamp (43:40.342)
Yeah, free cool lunches. No, thank you. Right. And again, so much of that, I think I love that that reframing of that takes a village piece because while yes, the children are definitely a priority and important. The piece that so often is I think completely ignored or ignored is the mother, the parent, the primary caregiver in that journey. It's like
Balungile Belz (44:00.588)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:04.494)
when there is any amount of attention given, it seems like it's going to the children. And yes, valid, important. And also, what about those people who are bringing those children into this world, who are making sure those children stay alive once they're in this world, who are making sure those children are loved and that become citizens we want in this world? Like those people are incredibly important and so not even overlooked, it's just like, I don't know, not cared for at all.
Balungile Belz (44:34.346)
No, not cared for at all. And I don't know, I don't like conspiracy theory or anything, but it just makes me wonder what the goal is when there is so much importance placed on the kids and then less important place on the very people that those kids primarily rely on. Let's just think about what the end goal there might be for a minute and go from there.
And then that's where the work starts, right? That's when we can step in and say, well, if, all right, let's be the village then in whatever shape or form. And there's so many, there's so many, so many, what I love about the work that I've been doing is I've connected with so many incredible women founders. I talk with my hands. Who...
Becky Mollenkamp (45:27.693)
It's okay.
Balungile Belz (45:31.694)
are establishing businesses, organizations, so many things that are just geared towards creating those support systems in society, right? And they're usually mothers and they usually come from a place of, went through this and I want to solve this problem so that no one has to experience this again. And that inspires me every single day.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:57.326)
Well, I want to go back just to direct listeners and our viewers back to the very first two episodes of Feminist Founders podcast, one or the second and third, I guess, but one was with Toy Smith.
Balungile Belz (46:05.336)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:09.186)
who started Loving Single Black Mothers, which is an organization that's all about making sure that single black mothers are supported. And then the other one is Motherful in Ohio, which is creating this self-supporting village for single mothers to have space for care and support and love. And, you know, to do that in ways that is not, to try and tend to this very issue of what does it look like to mother in a way that's actually supported. So you can go learn about both of those organizations if you feel like.
Balungile Belz (46:33.378)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (46:38.818)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:38.828)
I want to do something because they're both doing the work and I know there's so many others.
Balungile Belz (46:42.85)
Yeah. I mean, let's add another one. You, right? Like I loved, first of all, I love your platform.
all the hard work. I can't even put into words because I know that this is such difficult work and I want to recognize that, you know. And also because of that work, how you also give yourself permission to rest. I loved your episode about the retreats that you take. was like, I...
Becky Mollenkamp (47:12.686)
Yeah, thank you. I do that. There's privilege in that, but I do that. again, it's that encouraging of what are the things that we can, once we understand, once we don't feel so alone, once we can remove the shame about how overwhelmingly difficult all of this is, that it's not our imagination, it's not our failures, it is, and it's probably by design, then how do we find the ways that we can tend to ourselves by asking for support, by giving ourselves those permission slips to do the things that feel good.
Balungile Belz (47:36.462)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (47:41.388)
Yes, and to work with people like you because you're helping people in those early days when it is the most, I mean, you know, mine's now nine. It's easier, but it's never not hard.
Balungile Belz (47:43.395)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (47:54.123)
yeah, it's all different kinds of heart, that's what I always say. Is he making his own sandwiches yet?
Becky Mollenkamp (48:00.344)
he should be. Is he not always? He's starting to do more around the kitchen. You know, he does clean up after himself when he eats and starting to put away his laundry. Like we're getting there, but I need to be pushing. My biggest fear in the friend is raising an entitled white boy. And I'm just so afraid of that. Like, don't. But there's also that like motherly thing where you're like, I just want to take care of you. You have to be really careful.
Balungile Belz (48:03.64)
That's that.
Balungile Belz (48:12.332)
Yeah, that's my...
Balungile Belz (48:22.946)
I ain't no-
I it. I'm always thinking like, yeah, maybe it'll be easier when they're making their own sandwiches. I don't know though.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:32.704)
Yeah, I mean, it's so much once they're in school, it's definitely better. Like that is that was the first place where it was like I could, I could really feel some of that weight lift from my shoulders. Like, actually have seven hours. It's less than I thought though, they have a lot of breaks. They have a lot of like teacher days and things, but I had a good portion of time where I'm like, I can just focus like it was, it feels bizarre after all that time of juggling everything to have focused time.
Balungile Belz (48:36.813)
Hmm.
Balungile Belz (48:46.892)
Hmm.
Balungile Belz (48:55.821)
Yeah.
Balungile Belz (49:00.364)
Yeah. Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:00.494)
It's amazing. So that was great. And now he's starting to get older where he wants to have more play dates. He's out more. He's doing things. That brings all the chaperoning, all the organizing. But it does mean he's doing more. He's getting more independent. He is, you know, picking his own outfits. I don't have to get him dressed every day. Like there are things that definitely start to help.
Balungile Belz (49:17.742)
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know about those breaks. My toddler is on summer camp break right now and I'm like, hmm, oh, okay, that's interesting. That's so...
Becky Mollenkamp (49:25.102)
summer is a That's really honestly that's what inspired the series was just that it was like, this is supposed to be a relaxing time and it's anything but it actually feels more challenging in summer than when he's in school because now I've got to, I got to make sure he's got all the summer camps. I got to make sure he's got his lunches packed for the summer camps. I got to get him to and from the summer camps. All the times he doesn't have a camp, what's he going to be doing? Who's getting him there? Who's picking him up? How is that going to work with my call? Like it's just
monumentally more challenging in the summer. And so that's where Faith and I were like, okay, let's let's talk about she was also thinking about women's labor in her own way. She has adult children, and hers have their own challenges because they're not they're neuro atypical. And so there's challenges there. And just both of us like this is, this shit's hard. It's really hard. We need to talk about it more.
Balungile Belz (50:08.598)
Yeah, yeah, you know? More, more. I feel you 100%. I don't, look, I'm not complaining. I want to make that clear. And also, motherhood is my favorite thing I've ever done in my life. Are you kidding?
Becky Mollenkamp (50:29.442)
best job I've ever had, but just the most challenging I've ever had. And those things don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Balungile Belz (50:34.718)
Exactly, exactly. That's what I was trying to say. It's just hard. And it should be okay to say that, by the way, without giving unsolicited advice.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:52.982)
or somebody giving you the basic feeling of, you chose this. Which some people even explicitly say, which by the way, is not helpful. So don't say that.
Balungile Belz (50:56.673)
you
Balungile Belz (51:00.81)
Wow okay nobody said that to me but yeah that would that would hurt that would hurt because that that that is really an alienating thing to say gosh i have more thoughts about community and and all kinds of things i know yeah i'm baloo bal's b a l u b e l z everywhere yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (51:09.016)
There are things people say that hurt. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:16.856)
Well, we could talk a lot more, I'm sure. This has been fantastic and I really appreciate it. And where can people find you?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:28.214)
All right, great. So this is what LinkedIn I saw. If you want to learn more, reach out. And thank you so much for taking your time to do this. We both know our time is valuable and there's not enough of it. So I'm always grateful when people are.
Balungile Belz (51:31.17)
Yes. Yes. Are you kidding? This...
Yeah, no, I so appreciate the invite and I mean it. I think sometimes people don't think I'm being sincere. I mean it. Like, if there's anything I can do to be supportive, please reach out to me. you know, being a mom is crazy, but also being an engaged member of society and just a dedicated person in this world also means a lot to me. And so I look forward to getting it.
and touch and connecting with so many people.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:11.778)
Well, thank you and thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.
Balungile Belz (52:13.408)
Yeah. Yeah.