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A podcast about design, diving in with leaders IC and managers from the design world.
Muhammed Salim
00:00
As being in a small team, let's just say from one to ten, everything goes through you. Um and then you make sure that to approve the quality is great, so everything is good. But then as it starts to scale, you become the bottleneck that blocks people. It's no longer a team. It's now an organization. So how can we get to the level where we can move with the speed, but without having so many managers that actually slows down. Dio manages also roll this eth and design when it's required to
Avi Ashkenazi
00:30
Welcome to the Craft of Design, a podcast about designers, how they level up their craft, as an AC or as a manager. Today we're gonna talk to Mohammed Salim. He's an amazing design leader at Teo, has been at Revolute and has a plethora of experience to share with us. I'm excited to hear about your journey, how you become A designer?
Muhammed Salim
00:56
Oh well all started if I go back to my family. Um so I grew up in a very creative household. Uh my dad um as he was a business uh trader by trade, like that's the work he used to do, but also in his freeze time he would start painting, crafting, doing things. I loved that as a child growing into it. But I always had this part of me where I was drawn into complexity. So if you buy me toys, I will just break them into pieces and make something new. It makes no sense and he'd be like, Why did you break it? And I was like, Oh, did you see this? Like uh I can make this As growing up I finished my university in Harvardshire uh and I did my interactive multimedia course there. Um as it was exciting, um, I was blessed with amazing professors. So as the university finished, um, I got into the path of trying to find a job. Um so at the time product design was not in the industry as much. Um so searching for a job or trying to get into the media part, um I started as a graphic designer. uh where you have to do all the print, the uh pages, the cutters and the design. It was quite cool at the time, but uh it wasn't fulfilling. Um so as the industry was growing there was the role of website design came in Um so I took that role where you have to actually start coding, uh building websites, um, and then moved from there to uh Addisley in London. Uh and that's when I met um truly fantastic people to work with, an amazing team uh where we split the way of working from the uh driver side app all the way to the passenger side app we had a design in each uh area um and then we had working with international teams as well to bring everything together In that space, uh, we delivered like one of the key highlights that I remember uh working on was the uh driver tip. Um so we spend all the research and we like spent about two weeks researching, understanding everything that we needed to do in order to increase the happiness, but yet retention. So we did that. Um and a day before the release, um, I remember this very clearly. Um I worked with uh the PM I used to work with. uh we uh caught the Uber up and he was like uh Mohammed just brace yourself uh there's something I want to see uh to show you. I was like what is it? I was like let's just get in the bus. Uh we go on the bus and then we catch Uber after that. Um and then as we finished the journey um he showed me um the um the tip uh feature that Uber actually released a day before our release day and I swear it was identical uh to the level. So I was like in a way angry, but maybe annoyed, but at the same time, because I wanted to be the first. Like I wanted the work we did with my team. to be the first release on that respect. But a small team managed at the time to design something that almost identical to what Uber released of their size of the team. So we were proud. So we went and celebrated and enjoyed that sort of uh win As the company uh grew at the time it was got acquired, uh we got to the point where we felt it's time to move on. Um I at the time moved to BT. Um so BT was quite um Nice company to work for is an enterprise, large, uh huge actually. Uh the design team was quite really great people to work with, uh, but they moved really slowly Um so their sprint was almost nine months um at the time. Usually when you join like a a large enterprise potentially they still try to learn who you are, what's the skills you've got. Um Like can we trust you to give you this, etc. ? So they gave me the back admin uh office uh to work on. So I looked at the uh work or the requirements, but also they gave me the solution. See, so they asked me how long do you need and I said, They just say two weeks. But they already gave you the solution. So I took that and did my uh proper way. So I researched, got everything I needed and designed a proper solution. And I designed what they needed or expected to see. So during the time when I presented the work to them, um there was like about eighteen stakeholders sitting in front of you. Um and everyone uh will have equal power to what they can shape. So it was almost difficult um to actually navigate through to get the Design decision made very quickly. So I presented the work they wanted to see, but also showed them the new one. So they got excited about the new one and they sent me all the way to Belfast where the head of the operation at the time was based there. So to present this work to them and see how will that work. I went there to Belfast and uh presented the work in the first um fifteen minutes, um I can see the room, all of them just protective and they're all very much like I'm not happy to see the design. And I'm like, what's going on? So I just asked so what's what's like what's not Good about it. They said we can see it being applied in hundred years time. We've been here for like thirty years working this company and I don't think this will move. Um, so I wasn't quite happy, so I um closed my laptop straight away and left the room. Which caused a bit of noise at the time. Um I don't know, maybe I was uh younger and a bit um with temper at the time. So I left quickly and they're like, Mamma, you left the room, there's like the head, etc. I was like, Well he said it will take a hundred years to build, so why am I wasting my time? So I left and went back to the uh office of London and um I remember my manager uh called me. He's like, Mohammed I've heard your name going around. What's going on? Um so I I presented the problem to him and he's like, oh I see, it makes sense. How about we move your team? So you go from the admin all the way to BTTV Um so that was like um quite prestigious. So during that time, um uh my colleague, the the person I worked with in uh Addisley he was already in uh Revolute, so he messaged me to say, uh Badri Muhammad, there's an opportunity, would you like to join Revolut? At the time I didn't know what Revolute is, and I'm like, uh I'm not sure. Can I see the product? Um I would say hundred, a few hundred. I was like sure, let's just see the product, but I've got this new product I'm working on which is really exciting. I was like, let's just let's just have a meeting. So went, uh, had coffee, showed me a product. I got excited. Um I was like, so what's required? And he said, you need to design the entire analytics screen. I'm like Is that the home task they need to do? It's like, yeah, but I see you ask me to ins like design the entire product. Um so I took that and I was working on it. Um so I designed the journeys, the um frameworks what actually could be, but also the uh wireframes and it was all just wireframes into prototypes. I got that, but then during that time BT offered me to work in one of these NDA projects that I signed for And it was super exciting. So I called uh my mate and I said to him, look, um I'm not taking this anymore. So like um I'm uh here's everything I've designed for Evelyn. You can take it um and I'll just continue where I am. So he took it and went to the CEO Nick and he presented the work um and he said, look, this is what Muhammad designed. um I want him to be in my team. Nick looked at a uh based on what I've heard, he was like, I can see the potential, it's a good one, just get him in. Um so my mate called me and he's like Don't have thing. Say no. You got through without an interview. You can just start working in Revolute straight away. I was like, what about the offer? What about the details? He's like, don't worry about it, we'll figure it out. Just Come in. I resigned uh from BT uh and I joined uh Revolute at the time. So I remember my first day. There wasn't any onboarding. I met Nick. He was like, Oh, I'm looking forward to see the great design. I was like, Cool. We'll see that. So went and uh the first project was in the first day, how do we help customers who are being locked away? If someone received money more than the threshold. Like how did you uh verify that source of fund? Um so there wasn't a tool to do that. So what happens back then? People get locked out completely. Um and you can see people back in Twitter, only used to be called Twitter, complaining, uh, where's my money? Like my account was locked in, etc. So we had to design something quickly. So I joined to work in payments. But then first day was pivoted to actually go into the think crime and design a tool or way to be able to do that. So we created the design uh quickly and it was implemented quite fast actually. Um so that was impressive for me to speak to see a true speed back then. So we had this idea where we wanted to actually make payments social. Um I remember uh presenting that first time and I see the engineers and people going like, Mama, this is we planning to be a bank. Why do you add these things into it? Like you know, having gifts, having stuff like that. So it's I was like, then people remember through memories. Like let's try to do this to be able to see how can emotionally people who use a product remember Revolute in a longer period of time. So that's the hypothesis back then. So we did the give. So the ratio back then was out of ten, four who didn't tend uh give, six who did. So in the longer period of time though the six who did actually stayed in Revolute. So that worked amazingly well, which helped payment to be quite successful. Um and then shaped the direction and influenced how we actually see 'em. Back then Revolute was very much the travel app cash card. So if I'm going to travel, I need to put some money, people add money into their Revolute account, travel, because they get a better exchange rate, etc. and so on. Or I'm going out with my mates. Here's Let's do a split bill, etcetera. All of these features we built in in one place. But as the time progressed, the market shifted. Um the CO came and uh tasked us all. The direction of the business changed now. We're no longer the travel app. or they cash card uh ab we want to be the super app and a set competition uh internally. So best design wins So every team designed me the super app and show it to me. That was, in my opinion, um back then one of the best uh experiences because it either makes you or breaks you.
Avi Ashkenazi
10:48
At this point of time You know, there was uh very steep competition with Mon Monzo, right? Yes. Um I remember both apps coming out more or less the same time as a user and They're coming with a feature. You're coming with a feature. It was probably something that you talked about. And in addition to that, you were mentioning there was this another layer of internal competition, how do we build the super app? How do we expand to all those additional verticals products? What was that like?
Muhammed Salim
11:23
So the external competitions was very much around value driven to customers. Um how fast can we deliver this where the customer can get the value and actually use it with ease? If you ask me one thing Revolute did great back then is Or one lesson, I would say, how do we make everything we do without any friction? Can we remove any friction on the way to be able to actually make it smooth, fast, easier to achieve? Um and I feel like Monzo was great, like it's a great company and um from a design perspective, from the culture perspective, like you know, from like the angles, it was a good competition to have.
Avi Ashkenazi
12:00
The culture in Monzo and the culture in Revolute are probably starkly different, right? And both the companies are really, really successful. What do you think was the key things that made Revolute jump beyond any any uh other competition? Because you know, if we look now at valuations. etc. I think it's pretty obvious. Revolute is the most successful startup in Europe, period.
Muhammed Salim
12:29
It is. I wouldn't know much about um Monzo's culture and details. But what makes, in my opinion, Revolute successful is um the mindset of if you want to do it, do it today. But also the grit, which I feel like is quite important, um, to actually be better than anyone, having that level of like I want to push harder. So or what I've done is great, but it's not as great as I wish it to be. So you can see people working really hard to achieve that level of excellence.
Avi Ashkenazi
12:58
And let's dive into it. What what is working really hard?
Muhammed Salim
13:04
I'll just use my own example, like how how we worked with my team. So when um let's just say we'll start the day, um 7:30, 8 in the morning. Um so that's when roughly we arrive around the office. You can see already a handful of people, almost ten to fifteen, already starting. Um people would leave the office around Let's just say my team will finish work around six, seven, eight. We'll have lunch like uh dinner together, work, discuss the ideas, and then if we believe actually we can execute it now um and if everyone available to do it, we sit together and actually work sometimes to midnight. Um and then just catch the cab and go back home and then start again. So my point being is like there's that level of burning desire to achieve and be the best you can be. No one tells you to that. Like there's no the business will not come and say you have to work these hours. It's just very much a decision everyone made autonomously to say I want to be the best so what it takes to be, let's do it. Like um I remember this example when we designed the first um payment uh screen where we allow customers to be able to actually uh search and then you can find anyone uh in in in uh Revolute and then if you know that person you can actually request or send money etc globally. So that was just an idea came within less than a week. Project like did the design shared it to or presented it to Nick at the time Um he was happy with that. Um we start executing. I remember going back home, it was almost ten PM and we just finished every plan and then I see the message from uh the developer messaging me privately to say, Mohammed, I've got the first build as a test. Would you like to see it? That moment I'm like, wow, like this is so cool. And I just went downloaded it quickly, tested the product, and it was all good. And then next morning we just released it to customers.
Avi Ashkenazi
14:54
So you're in Revolute, it's a rocket ship. It all goes up like crazy, up and to the right, like any VC or any CEO would dream of. The company is growing rapidly
Muhammed Salim
15:06
Why do you leave the Deel? Very good question. So I I uh I'm laughing because it's a good question. So Both are great companies. I love I love Revolute and I love Deel, truly. And I was still close. Like I still speak to some designers who works there and so on. But it's down to my own goal. So when I joined Revolute, my goal was to build that sort of social um fintech app to be able to actually shift that direction. It wasn't there and we managed to successfully do it. So we did that from a payment point of view. I moved to card, did the personalization in card, shopping card, etc. Um plugins into like to make shopping seamlessly, like removing that friction again, going back to that point. So we did all of that, but I felt I'm getting to a point where I wanted to build the best design team in the world. And in Revolute, yes, it's a great company, but there wasn't that sort of at the time. like a vocal head of design or a center point where you can actually go have that structure to be able to actually have these amazing teams that are actually high performing teams. Delivering great work. The team were high performing, but I can see some people leaving. I can see some amazing talent. Maybe if you can just do a little bit of care here and there. can actually uh help to retain them longer. Uh there wasn't uh from that perspective. The structure we used to report to product managers. um in in Revolute back then. There wasn't any clear structure to help at the time. Rightfully so in a way that helps the business to achieve, like whatever Nick at the time thought about, worked quite well for his for the goal that he wanted to achieve. But My goal, what I joined the Revolute for hasn't been achieved and I wanted more and I couldn't fulfil it. A few people I worked with moved actually to Deel and then they approached me to say, Look, this is a new company, would you like to see it? I didn't know Deel at the time. Um, I'm like, oh I'm not sure. Like let's let's just see it. Um so he showed me the product and I could see the amazing potential. Um like the difference here is like revolute mentally, um in the mental model, people use it as a cash card. So to move into that to bank, you need to have like a massive paradigm shift. to do that. Uh where in Deel people get paid in Deel. So the potential is limitless. Like there's nothing there un like unlimited to do what you can do. So I got super excited. Um I did the interview and joined. I left Revolute with a mission to build one of the best design team. Now here's a caveat. When I did the interview, Alex was like, but Mohammed, we're not planning to grow. uh we might go to IPO with a hundred people. So as a small company. So we didn't have, I'll be honest with you back then that sort of dream to be where we are today. Very much the goal was can we build the best platform? Can we build the best product? Can we remove all of that sort of learning, at least from my perspective, that I learned in Revolute, can we remove the friction globally this time To be able to actually have this amazing product that function globally. So I joined and there was one designer, amazing guy, who was actually the first hire. Uh but when I saw the entire product at the time, how things being managed, there is no design system, there's no processes, there's nothing commercially can scale from a design perspective. So we worked hard together as a company. It was about 40 people at the time Um and we managed to successfully deliver this great product off um contractor products. So uh businesses can hire freelancers or contractors and pay them. Uh but then Six months down the line we start entering um the EUR model, um which where truly the company starts to flourish Like you know, it flew really big. So we went from a unicorn of $1. 25 billion company to five in a CSD, remember $5. 5 uh billion uh dollar company in one year since since I joined So that's just massive growth very quickly. So during that time, I remember Isad Muhammad, here's a budget, let's just hire the team. Let's get more designers. And that's where the challenge starts, because who knows Deel? And who will join you? And the budget you will have, you wouldn't be something uh staggering big. So you'd be like um you will have to look at it from the perspective of where do I go in the market? Because I can hire anyone in the world using our own product. So I started to actually be wearing the hat of salesman. um selling the dream. So I surfed over like two like this is not an exaggeration, two hundred thousand plus manually, pitching, talking, uh selling the dream to find amazing people that we can hire. And we did. And I wouldn't trade any of them of course like amazing, fantastic, hardworking individual who achieved and grow and still some of us, some of them still with us almost four years plus in Deel. Um so fast forward in time from that, uh the company has grew. Um it used to be at the beginning, um, can I hire and pay someone? And then we entered the uh different uh segment of the market, which is the HR product. So can I uh hire, pay and manage my team? And that was amazing. So the thing about Deel is like You put your mission and it doesn't just become a mission that you look up to in the far away. It's very much a mission applied within a few months, very quickly. So how I pay and manage, it became quickly a practice that applied within the product that we can actually see some tangible value that comes back for our customers but as well as for the business. So as we continue growing into the market, Deel mission very much changes from how I pay manage all the way to how can we help business to grow? Can I get um a talent from Let's just say uh I'm a business, let's just say my budget is X million or billions. Um where do I start? Where do I take it from there? Can we get that level of insight to be able to drive businesses? to grow. Can I be a startup of or founders of four or five people all the way to an enterprise of like just thirty, forty thousand uh company? And if any in between, Deel will still be your one stop shop. So the team grew from One designer um and then all the way to uh twenty-three, I remember, twenty-five, and then it jumped very quickly from that to fifty plus um and then all the way to like almost now we ninety plus designers as we speak. So that that within five years period of time um that I have been in Deel.
Avi Ashkenazi
21:28
Deel has a value called uh Deel speed.
Muhammed Salim
21:31
Yes.
Avi Ashkenazi
21:32
You talked a lot about the on speed in Revolute. Yes. What's the difference in speed? Everyone say that they want to be fast. Everyone is fast. Every company is fast. Why what's different about Deel?
Muhammed Salim
21:44
Um the different here is um I think they're both uh fast companies, fast hyper growth companies and both have and like amazing people that actually lead in the company.
Avi Ashkenazi
21:56
I can say another thing about the other value of Deel which is caring about customers
Muhammed Salim
22:02
Obsessively. Yeah.
Avi Ashkenazi
22:03
Obsessively. How every company has that. What's what's the difference do you think uh between how Deel approaches it and everyone else?
Muhammed Salim
22:12
From my own perspective, um, I think our executive or C-suite level, they're very close to the customers. So that cascade down really beautifully well to the overall company Um I haven't seen that in Revolution like I've seen them sometimes here and there, they will do it, but not to the level where I have seen how close, for example, Alex is. to the customer. It's another level, which is really, really great to see. Like, you know, he'll reach out and say, oh, customer X said this about the product. Here's the V quick video. So I'll take it with the team and go into Reaja and understand the pain point, make sure it's not just one customer, but make sure there's a good data to understand this scalable and so on.
Avi Ashkenazi
22:49
What do you feel is different? You've managed one designer and now the team is 90 What's the difference? Uh how does it scale? Because like I know a lot of people, you know, people that are managers that manage maybe like two, three people, then later ten people, etc. How does the perception and how does the different things that you need to do, rituals as a team, etc. , etc. , change as when you grow from 10 to 20 to 50 to almost a hundred?
Muhammed Salim
23:21
I've learned as being in a small team, let's just say from one to ten, everything goes through you. Um and then you make sure that to approve the quality is great, so everything is good. But then as you start to scale, you become the bottleneck that blocks people because you can't review every single thing with the speed. So you start to manage to create that level of captains. that helps and speaks the language you do. But I spoke to different uh design leaders and you learn from each other. It's no longer a team. It's now it's an organization. So how can we get to the level where we can move with the speed, but without having so many managers that actually slows down. So Deel managers also roll their sleeves and design when it's required to. And you can actually move to that level and just bring the quality forward as you do. Deel on average grows about twenty to thirty, maybe more, per year. And as an individual working, depending like despite the level you're in, um, how much are you growing as an individual professional in your space. So we always trying to make sure to encourage designers to have that space for them to be able to practice certain things to grow. So there's a time for practice, but there's also time for performance. And that's been uh the momentum and it's been growing really well. One thing you'll find is documentation has been uh one of the um challenging thing to solve because as we continue growing from one or five, ten product teams all the way to hundred plus product teams, how do you get this consistency in one place? How do you use this component versus this use case? Um so documentation has been quite uh challenge. So if you go with detailed documentation, it goes dated very quickly. And if you go with um high level, of course you will be inconsistent um as you go uh and work with the team. So that we find the best practice here is to be involved as managers, as uh lead, as uh directors, to be involved to be able to drive that level of alignment and connecting the dots between these teams as you go.
Avi Ashkenazi
25:20
Obviously at Revolute and both at Deel, you worked very very close with the founders because you were there from almost day one, essentially. And they obviously realized that they needed a designer. They want to hire someone who makes design, who improves things. But how were you able to make it indispensable for the C-suite? Maybe the CEO knew that it is valuable, maybe other people didn't understand, maybe the CTO, CEO. How did you make sure that people really understand the value of design and as people like to say, it has a seat at the table, it actually matters.
Muhammed Salim
26:03
It depends and it varies also about who you're Deeling with and who the stakeholders are. There are different people. But the framework I looked at or the way I functioned back then And I still do it, is I always try to understand two things. What is the um capital financials? Like where are they investing? Two is what is the capital political, like you know, where the teams are distributed, are they centralized, decentralized? Based on these two, how does this the decision is made? So that come up with three things I've done. One is making the not visible things visible, like the design, make them visible. So that means can I go in channels? Can I uh present? Can I talk? Can I be there on the moment when it needs it to be The um second thing was uh the speed. Like who's the decision making? Uh if it is Alex, if it is Nick Back and Revolute. uh if we have the power to autonomously make that decision, fantastic. Um so if that's the key, okay fantastic. If not, how can I remove that friction to be closer to the decision making so I can move faster? Um the third thing Is um what is the thing that makes that CEO doesn't sleep at night? Do you understand it? If yes, how can you solve it? Um and getting into that level very quickly, it will quickly make you have a seat in the table to actually make value, impactful value in the company from a business and a customer point of view.
Avi Ashkenazi
27:30
I had this conversation with uh Alex today where uh I told him, hey, I want to show you some designs, whatever. Uh, I want the team to present to you next week. And he was like, why not now? Send it over. And I was like, well, because I need to cook it a little bit more and I need I want the team to present it to you But that shows you this drive, this speed, this like why why do later? Let's do it now.
Muhammed Salim
27:59
Indeed, indeed. Like I like one thing to say, I thought the speed inDeel Maybe it's just like Revolute back then, like when I left Revolute and then joined Deel. Um, but truly it's different. It's unheard of. A lot of people will say the most surprising thing upon joining Deel is the speed We developed it as a skill. I am mid-level designer and I'm looking at this high complex project. It took me about a week. Right. So if I can deliver this within three days instead of the week. So your your value as an individual is also growing. It's coming with it. So the key is like I always say to designers, measure yourself. If it's going to take you uh four days next time make sure it's realistically three and a half to three. And then until you reach that level of point you know high level of complexity or whatever the complexity level, it will take me this percentage of time or this figure of time. And that's fine, because that's that's the that's the capacity you have Fantastic. And that's the speed you've got amazing. So we know how to work with the velocity we've got moving forward.
Avi Ashkenazi
28:58
So you're interviewing people. There's a bunch of stuff that you're asking them. That helps you try to understand if they can work in Deel speed, if they are fast, when you are training people internally, when you are examining externally. What do you look for that tells you if they can work fast?
Muhammed Salim
29:20
I think it's the desire to achieve. If I want to be the best I can be, you'll find the entire like the the universe around them will actually be catered around them to achieve that. Do they have that drive to be able to be self autonomous? Being able to actually drive that level of time management is a very, very important factor to have. Are you good with it? Because people will say, I joined like a company with starter mentality, maybe I might not have life. a work life balance would not be as a great for me. But I believe it's a choice that we made. So it's not it's no longer the work work-life balance is the choices we make to make the balance we have within our lives. Because our job as managers is not to make that decision for you is very much to help you as an individual, enable you, empower you, provide for you so you can actually have that space to be the best you can be. So if you've got that sort sort of desire, I believe you can make the time for it.
Avi Ashkenazi
30:14
And humans are not machines, right? Absolutely. And machines if I'm in a car and I press the pedal really hard I'm gonna get to speed, but at some point I'm gonna get to like a certain speed and that's it. Like you know, no matter how hard I I hate the pedal, I cannot go faster But humans are different, right? Like we have muscles, we remember stuff over time, we get better over time, the car doesn't get faster over time. And we have internal feelings that we can channel, that not everyone can channel, that not always you can channel, that gets you to there. Um and I remember you talked to me a couple of days ago about this uh you know, when you had computers, old computers and you used to hack the BIOS. to make sure that the computer would go way faster, but then it overheated and then you brought a fan and then the fan cooled it, etcetera, etc. So you brought like a to make the machine faster, you brought other machines to help the machine Become faster, etc. etc. How do you we you know, people talk about burnout and and things along those lines? How do we make sure that
Muhammed Salim
31:26
If it's not watched and if it's not um reviewed or actually get into the space, it can easily lead to burnout and you can easily lose an amazing talent uh from your team. So I think the key here is like Myself, the leaders, including yourself and others, will be working in a way to watch that space. So for example, if my designer worked Let you say, I know there is a pressure in this team. Uh this design worked extra. So make sure to say maybe take Friday off, have Monday off. So at least you can have this long weekend where they can recharge to be able to actually sustain that level of growth. But at the same time that's one of method. The others will be like, okay, can you achieve this? The time given or the expectation of that time is not uh within my remit I need more time. So what we do here is like we ask for other designers to come and contribute and work together. So the key in Deel is like collaboration, helping each other, being able to share the knowledge. So uh others can actually not spend time to figure it out. So it's already researched. Here's the data, leverage that more very quickly. Use conventions. So the point being is the faster you deliver. the better you will have knowledge and the upper hand you'll have against your competition. They need to know and I'm sure they they do in in Deel is they're not alone. They've got an amazing organizational design that helps each other to be able to drive and be the best they can
Avi Ashkenazi
32:43
A car can get heated if I press the pedal really hard, but I'm in neutral. So I'm actually not going anywhere. But you know, the engine is going, etc. etc. In preparation for going, you know, I'm not an expert on burnout, but it's I feel like there are positive reasons why you are overheating and like negative reasons. But I think that a Deel it happens from the good reasons. It happens because you actually are going in speed. You actually are able to achieve and do stuff. And you want to do more and it's like playing a game. You get carried away. as a part of it and that's why it's important to not go through this alone. But at least you're achieving, whereas I know that some people uh used to burn out in other places because, you know, they're working, working, working, working, but they don't see the outcome of the the thing that they're working on and that is extremely frustrating. And now we have this usual dissonance of speed and quality, right?
Muhammed Salim
33:48
Oh, good one.
Avi Ashkenazi
33:51
I mean there is no design podcast conversation that doesn't go into design versus quality, how do we get there, etc. ? What's the what's the Deel formula?
Muhammed Salim
34:01
So the point being here is depending on the size of the organization you're Deeling with, but yet the risk you're willing to take, that's that's the factor for that. So uh with mixed with that the maturity of the company. So an example is if I want to learn um piano for the first time, I'm completely Uh newbie, first time sat down, I learned where the keys are, so I'll be looking down and f figuring out where's the C D, where's the sharp, etc. ? um where versus someone who's already knowing the keys and they don't need to look where and they just press versus someone who's actually can read the sheet music sheet and notes, being able to apply them in practice versus someone who can be in a stage and play music and make the audience actually emotionally connected to the work they do. So all these stages are very different depending on the practice they do and how good they are getting time by time. So it takes there's a course of time that it takes to be able to be the best in it, but how can we cater and deliver this value in each stage to be able to actually achieve something our customers happy with so we actually remove that pain in the market and to businesses delivering that goal that they need to have.
Avi Ashkenazi
35:06
When you work that fast, furiously shipping features all the time, when do you have time to work on vision
Muhammed Salim
35:13
The important part is, which I encourage designers to do, I always do, is make time for yourself, working time to sit down and go, here is my Friday two hours. Nothing distract me. I'm just thinking, how can I make this better Like what am I missing? Like what sort of angle I need to look at from the perspective. Come out of the box, be that creative of yourself. Break things and see, see it from different angles. There's no block us a lot of people like can you join us for example and Deel they'll join and be like oh I don't want to change the design system and I tell them do break it change something. Like make make because we can we can afford to make the risk now. And I believe as the company continue to grow and become bigger and stronger, that risk become bigger. So you your limitation of Your creativity limitation gets smaller. Some designers are like farmers. Mind my uh analogy here, but very much they're not great with blank canvas. They just Greater optimization. So give me a problem, give me some space. What do you need to solve? I can just chop it down and make it the best. But the ones, if you give them that limitation, they can't actually function. They need that sort of wild, free, blank canvas. They can just do it. So Farsa has manages to be able to distinguish these two. And there's the hybrid by the way also. Um, how can we place them in the right place? Uh the right complexity with the right level to be able to actually achieve. I tell them one thing, like in order for anyone to achieve, including myself and anyone else something they've never done before, they need to do something different. And that requires time. So therefore time management is a key to be successful and greater what you do and have that level of creativity to do it as well
Avi Ashkenazi
36:51
Can you give me an example of when someone took some time apart, thought, brought a vision that everyone got excited about and rallied behind?
Muhammed Salim
37:04
Recently we have a fantastic uh initiative led uh by two amazing designers, um Alexander and Laura. Uh they worked on the onboarding Um so uh the onboarding was quite like as Deel grew. Like we used to be like this small company, small product, uh a customer will join and then what will happen is just they put the initial information, what do we need of them to be able to function in the product And then the kicker activated, ready to use. It was simple and easy to use. But then you got to product where now we have multi-products. We've got different uh channels. So for example, someone who's S and B, someone who's uh as a as a f segmentation of business, or someone coming in as a large to medium uh segment or an enterprise, they're very, very different. So how do we tackle that? There was a massive gap uh from that perspective. So um we worked with the team, we defined the strategy We've shared it to all stakeholders to get the input. And then within one week, I just gave them the strategy of what and why we're doing it and how do we measure it. Within one week they both worked on the design to actually elevate it to the next level and brought this amazing design that we currently have, which feeds into not just self-serve but also managed serve all the way to the level where uh helps our sales team, operation team, onboarding team, and and uh the customer bow themselves to be on boarded as they go. But that started from And boarding is not working. Like we're scaling and it's broken. There's a big gap. There's a massive opportunity here. So we set together and we start thinking. And then we define the strategy, get it aligned with these stakeholders and then the rest as I have uh described it.
Avi Ashkenazi
38:39
That's one week. That sounds crazy. What what were they able to achieve in one week?
Muhammed Salim
38:43
Funny enough, if you start to get into the zone somehow, I I genuinely believe this, um, you actually achieve more than you could expect. Um and as a manager can I allow, can I have the team can actually get into the zone without being interrupted and just get this amazing work. So that's what I've done for them. That we just cleared the space. Took one week to get the first draft to get the alignment. um another roughly two weeks to actually get the first uh delivered into a court and then the team just took it from there and now we have it live in different segments and then it just continued to grow. But the initiative started I would say Roughly three, four months um ago.
Avi Ashkenazi
39:22
Any other projects that you think that you're really, really proud of? You know, it's been five years at Dale. Any project that you feel that was Against all odds, but delivered an amazing result that is lasting until today.
Muhammed Salim
39:40
The one that I take close to me is very much building the organization That's just something I'm very, very proud of. The team, seeing someone growing from a mid-level designer all the way to be a successful manager, like I'm really, really proud to see that. Payroll used to be still in many companies actually it's it's very difficult to do. It's got delta time of weeks. one week to get something. If I just do something, it takes another few days to actually get the correction and it goes into the it the process is just highly complex and highly customizable to the level of entities, countries. policies like the customization globally is very very difficult to do. So we've designed a fantastic timeline to simplify what you can see. of um the time of the payroll. So if I submitted my payroll, it goes to approval, it goes to multiple stages. And you can see these things synced with your calendar. um to give you that visibility of are you going to be late on your payday or are you uh going to be on time. Everything's clearly visible to you as we do. And that's something I'm really proud of. And we actually currently working on a new way to simplify it even further. Um so that's just one example I feel I'm very proud of.
Avi Ashkenazi
40:51
The design team and the team at Deel generally is completely international. You have people everywhere, just in the design team, about 35 countries. How do we Deel with this thing culturally? How do you create a culture of success that celebrates everyone's individuality and also How do you instill the Deel values into that group of people that is obviously, you know, we're talking about 35 countries just for the designers, if you add the engineers and product people and sales and marketing, etc. , etc. You cover almost every country in the world.
Muhammed Salim
41:30
Culture we built in terms of like giving feedback, working together, collaboration, sharing knowledge. Uh all of these things like helps the team to feel like you're not alone. You've got a fantastic team that works with you to share the best knowledge so you can actually achieve the best you can.
Avi Ashkenazi
41:44
There's a lot of young designers that are going to hopefully watch this thing. Um what advice would you give them?
Muhammed Salim
41:54
Um don't be afraid to break things. Um so if you join Deel, um don't wait to learn the domain. Um Deel is very complex. Um it will take you almost forever to learn everything because the we always introduce a new product and new services and so on. So use your best practice and knowledge. and apply. And if you make mistakes, that's your learning curve. Yes, you can break design system and change it. Of course, with the data, with the justification that you have in order to solve a problem. Each component must solve a problem and if the current component doesn't solve any problem for you, that's absolutely fine. How can you evolve it? If there's no way to do that, also fine, create a new one. And take it from there, but you've got to work closely with the design system team to be able to help you and leverage uh that. And the third advice, you've got to be great at time management to be able to be successful.
Avi Ashkenazi
42:45
Who is Deel not for
Muhammed Salim
42:48
If you want to achieve, if you want to make a mark, if you can work with chaos to make a mark and and create that level of um collaboration that helps you to achieve a fantastic value of work that you are you're going to be proud of, this is place for you.
Avi Ashkenazi
43:04
You have uh different companies over time have looked and measured the different uh levels of maturity of design organizations in companies. What do you think is the maturity of the design organization right now in DEL?
Muhammed Salim
43:20
I was not mature. Um, because we have grown so fast. Um more than half of design designers in the organization is actually new. uh less than a year. Um so the key here is like the speed of growing impacted the maturity. Um so therefore Um, it takes time. Like, you know, and how do we keep it mature like how do we improve the maturity of it? It just takes time, but we make sure that the uh alignment, the standards, uh Uh what makes quality design quality? It's sharing all of these sort of knowledge and practices and having these rituals with the team. Teach them the domain, get that lot of Like someone with a tenure in Deel learning all these have learned all of these domains can actually autonomously uh operate faster than someone actually being here for like, I don't know, one month or something and sort of So from a company point of view, uh AI is amazingly embraced. We have our AI workforce, which is already live. Uh customers can hire an agent to be able to help them uh do manual tasks uh in the product. Uh things like they can uh I need to collect some information through logging into different websites. You can gather these things, fill it for you, give you a summary, you can adjust it and put it on. Um other things uh we have also helping our operation team, there is lots of AI manual tasks they need to do. So we save so many hours for them to be able to actually achieve uh the response to our customers in a shorter period of time. From the operation side of the design, we also try and um a new ways of way working. So we have um um the ability to we start to try this. It hasn't been fully rolled out yet, but what we're trying to do is can a designer work as an AI empowered designer with the engineers? to deliver and iterate and explore new ideas fast and then be able to share them with stakeholders for alignment to be able to book a a call with a customer to do a user testing with the new designs that they have done.
Avi Ashkenazi
45:13
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