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The crowd roars. The impossible shot sinks through the net as the buzzer sounds. We live for these epic sports moments on the big screen—even if we've never laced up cleats or set foot on a field.
Why do sports films captivate us? How do they speak to the competitor deep inside? Can a great sports flick make you fall in love with a game you never cared for?
Join lifelong friends and film fanatics Ocean Murff and Jim Pullen as they go deep into the psychology, storytelling, and raw emotional power of the greatest sports movies ever made.
Laugh and cry with them as they re-live the agonizing defeats, underdog triumphs, coaching miracles, and adrenaline-soaked championship glory only the big screen can deliver. From tales of individual perseverance to the bonds of teamwork, Ocean and Jim break down just how sports films distill the human experience like no other genre.
Strap in for a cinematic thrill ride covering everything from boxing to baseball, hockey to horse racing. You'll never see sports—or sports movies—the same way again. The whistle blows on The Adrian Moment.
Hello, friends. Welcome to the Adrian moment on true story.fm. I'm Ocean. And I'm joined as always by the Rocky to my king of sting, count of Montefesto, the master of disaster, Apollo Creed, Jim Pullen.
Jim:Wow. You know, I I'm just not that lyrical to be able to come up with some good rhymes that he could easily come up with, but thank you.
Ocean:That's Yeah. Well, he he had, like look. That was only 3 of the nicknames he had. He had a lot of other ones. He did?
Ocean:Yeah. So there was, yeah, there was quite a few more. It was, you know, the since the character was originally based on on Muhammad Ali, he had he had to, of course, have a whole bunch. But, anyway, so yeah. So then how are things going with you,
Jim:Jimmy? Things are going good, man. Thank you. I appreciate it. How about you?
Ocean:Things are going well. So then, it's, you know, it's Christmas time, and if you are listening to this on the day that it released, Christmas was yesterday as this this one will release on December 26th. So and I was thinking about Christmas movies and, really some of my favorite Christmas movies of of all time. And one of them that, is not typically thought of as a Christmas movie is Rocky 4.
Speaker 3:Today, the Soviet Union has officially entered as professional boxing. This is not just an exhibition fight, but this is us against them. He would like to compete against anyone who's qualified.
Ocean:Bravo is the most perfectly trained athlete ever. Whatever he hits, he
Speaker 3:distraught. He could have stopped the fight. He could have saved his best friend's life. I'll never forget you, Apollo. But now the one thing he can't do is walk away.
Speaker 3:Has the fight date been set yet? December 25th. Where? It's in Russia.
Ocean:Are you nuts? This is Piscop Ball. Where will you be going to Russia? I'm not going to Russia.
Speaker 3:I I don't know what you're talking about.
Ocean:He's had one professional fight, and one man is dead.
Speaker 3:Tabithi, you're gonna have to kill me. Why can't you change your thinking?
Ocean:He's on a fighter.
Speaker 3:You can't win.
Ocean:4. Now let me tell you why this is a Christmas movie, Jim. So the the one I first saw, so I'm gonna start with when I was I was young, much, much younger. So Rocky 4 was released in, the end of November, really Thanksgiving weekend in 1985, and I saw it in theaters. I saw it in theaters at the time, and I was, you know, in 1985, and I was, young, I was Ish.
Ocean:You know what? I'm not even gonna say how old I was because that makes me sound old even though I was young, and I was, we were for Christmas, around that time of, around that time of my life, for Christmas, we would go to Muskogee, Oklahoma, which is where my grandmother lived, and we in this case is my mother and I. And if you've ever been to Muskogee, Oklahoma, you know that there is nothing to do there, so. At least back
Jim:then, I mean, maybe there's something going on now. But
Ocean:I would imagine there was more going on then than there is right now. I bet there's I bet there's nothing going on in Muskogee, Oklahoma right now. So, anyway, and so we were there, and I, it was I saw it. It was during a Christmas break, so I saw it, and I saw it in theaters, and I saw it on Christmas day. And so it was yes.
Ocean:It was like the, after the afternoon, everything was opening. Well, the morning is opening presents and everything and all that, and then you eat the food and all that. And then Christmas evening, I went to go see a movie. So I so I saw Rocky 4 on Christmas day. And in, what during my experience there, I'm watching the movie and enjoying it.
Ocean:And I'm gonna jump to one part, and then we'll we'll skip back. But the final fight, at the end with Rocky versus Drago, when they're doing the press conference, and in the press conference, they announce that they are, you know, the fight's in Russia, and it's on Christmas day. Right? So it's on it's on Christmas day, and and so I was like, what? Today is Christmas.
Ocean:So in my head, at that point, when the fight started, I went from am watching a movie experience to I'm watching a pay per view experience, And I decided this fight was live right now because they said Christmas. It is Christmas, so that means this fight is happening now. Now. And and that and that is how I enjoyed this movie. And for really quite some time, this was my favorite Christmas movie, because whenever I saw the movie with everything about it, I still thought of Christmas, and how it was all Christmas time.
Ocean:And they, you know, they have the presents and the trees, and there's all the Christmas stuff going on around that around that time frame. You know? Sorry. In the movie, all the all the other Christmas tropings, you know, the tree decorations and everything else they have about the trappings of Christmas time. But that is what I thought of at that's what I thought of.
Ocean:And this, for me, is still in my top five Christmas, favorite Christmas movies of all time.
Jim:Nice. Okay. So I got a couple of questions. Would you guys normally go to a movie on Christmas day? Because I know with some families, it's it's a tradition, and I've only ever gone to one movie on Christmas day.
Jim:But for you guys, was it a tradition?
Ocean:You know, around that time, yes. It it did become one. It was really the tradition that I think that we developed is that we went to a movie during that Christmas time. Because, you know, you have a break from school. You're a kid.
Ocean:You you know, and my I'm not sure my mom was like any other parent was. Like, well, I gotta figure out something to do with with this kid. So Right. You know, let's take her to a movie. So we we did definitely see a movie on Christmas time.
Ocean:I I did see I have seen quite a few movies on Christmas day, but, yes, that it did become a and to call it a tradition makes it sound more like it was on purpose, and I just think it just it just sort of happened. It really happened organically that over time, we decided we would watch movies on Christmas.
Jim:Okay. Nice. So does that happen now for your guys' household?
Ocean:Not so much because the the same yeah. The same thing isn't really there, you know, that that at least the impetus for doing that. I I think that it is still fair to say, you know, definitely around Christmas time, we'll watch, we'll watch movies, you know, during that whole break period when, you know, the kids are out of school and all that. We'll do that. But the Christmas day itself, especially now when I got older, we made a bigger deal about the dinner.
Ocean:And so there becomes a a thing of where after the presents and the and everything in the morning, and even that got delayed. So because when I was so when I was a kid, you know, back in my day back in my day, this is how we did it. Right? We got up and immediately went to opening presents because if the if the presents weren't being opened right away, I was gonna start a riot, and they would have been, like, bed burnings and all kinds. I mean, it would have been it would have been it would have been a track.
Ocean:There there would have been, like, you know, casualties if we hadn't just gotten straight to the gift giving. Right? So because I was like, there are crisp there are presents under that tree. I see them. I want them.
Ocean:I need to have them right now.
Jim:I think that's true for both houses.
Ocean:And then everything else happened after that. Now as it what what my, definitely from the influence a large influence of my wife, became that Christmas turned into well, now we just get up in the morning and have breakfast first, which to me was just the first time I heard that, I was like, wait. So what do you mean the presents are just sitting in the the
Jim:presents are staring at us.
Ocean:Yeah. Right. Right. The presents are right there. Like, why are we eating food?
Ocean:Like, we're just you know, clearly, we have our priorities out of whack, but so we eat breakfast first. Then opening the presents, and then also, because I was the only child, there was more concentration on me, and it was definitely a faster process with my kid. I had multiple, you know, multiple kids, and sometimes we had other family members and a lot of things around. So the whole opening of presents part takes longer. So the not tape would take longer.
Ocean:And then for dinner, we invite all these people over. And so the process of getting everything ready after the gift giving, usually, you know, you've already eaten a big breakfast, you do the gift giving, you're not hungry, you're doing some cleaning up and everything, and then they were doing all this preparation for Christmas dinner. So the day of Christmas now does not get the same focus of a movie, I think, because we have more crammed into it now than when I was a kid. When I was a kid, it was like, we're gonna open some presents, we're gonna eat some food, and then it's like, well, now what? I I just wanna watch a movie.
Ocean:No. That that
Jim:makes that makes sense. That makes sense.
Ocean:But it
Jim:but it's still, like, there's opportunities for some movies around around the Christmas time, and it's not necessarily Christmas days.
Ocean:Yes. Around around the break. Yeah. So then on Christmas morning, do you do you eat breakfast first, or do you guys go to the class?
Jim:You know, it's kinda changed up a little bit now that the kids are older. I mean, earlier, it was try and be like kids, don't don't go downstairs before 6 o'clock. You know? I gotta go downstairs and kinda get the coffee ready and stuff and see if the whole Santa thing happened. And then and then, you know, and then come back upstairs and be like, alright, Jane.
Ocean:How long did you keep them on the Santa train?
Jim:Till, like, I think Molly was 8, so it went along for for a while. Zach being the oldest knew what was up a little bit, and he was we're like, hey.
Ocean:Don't Okay. So you kept them till 8. Right. Yeah. We kept lying for for quite a while.
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. It's a straight up lie.
Ocean:No. No. It is. I understand that. I had a, my wife thinks it traumatized me because I I would not, I would we never told our kids Santa Claus was real.
Jim:Right. No. I remember
Ocean:that. Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. I I remember that. And and I remember even thinking because even before we were having kids, we were like, oh, yeah. No. What do we tell them about these things?
Jim:And it was like, well, no. Let's go along with it. And then as it was happening, it was like, man, this anyways, that's a whole another conversation.
Ocean:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. This
Jim:is But, I mean, this is but to play off of all that. So, like, when you were growing up, though, was there was Santa thing when you
Ocean:were growing up? Well, it wasn't till I was about 5. I started asking questions around then. And then when I found out that it wasn't, I realized that I had. Like I said, my wife says, which, you know, I can do the the the psychoanalysis there of this, but the that it that it affected me in a great way because at that point, I think that it was, the the TLDR of it is, and part of why I wouldn't do it with them is that it was the first time that I realized my parents would lie to me.
Ocean:Okay. You know? And then to to learn that at 5 is kinda like that's I feel that's too early. You know? Because, like, by the time you're a teenager, you you figured it out there.
Ocean:It's like, okay. They're not always gonna tell me the truth. But when you're 5, you still believe that everything they say is the, you know, the absolute gospel. When I found out Santa Claus wasn't real at that point, and I was like, you know, what else in the world can I believe in? You know?
Ocean:So it was me. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Ocean:Yeah.
Jim:Okay. Well, you
Ocean:know what I mean? Let me get off the couch now. So I saw it. I was like, my my psychological damage. Just getting back to the the Christmas movie that is in fact Rocky 4, one aspect of it that I've been thinking about, it is obvious, in this movie, it has a very straightforward hero villain trope, and that's it's part of what makes it a good Christmas movie because any good Christmas movie is going to be pretty simple.
Ocean:In it, you know, Rocky is obviously our hero. Right. And then but Drago is obviously our villain. But then I think and I and I wanted to I was gonna ask you your thoughts on this. Is Drago really
Jim:a villain? I think visually, you're you're told that, you know, he, the character Drago, is the villain, Especially right out of the gate. Right? I mean, he's there. He wants to fight a champion.
Jim:And you're looking at him as if he is the villain. How dare you? You're coming here and you wanna fight a champion, and you're you're a nobody. You haven't fought anybody just yet. Who do you think you are?
Jim:Right?
Ocean:Well, who wants to fight the champion, not just a champion?
Jim:Right. The champion. Yeah.
Ocean:The champion. Every champion of the world.
Jim:Right.
Ocean:And he's never had a single professional fight.
Jim:No. Nothing. Nothing. You know, other than, you know, the Olympics. Right?
Jim:Yes. So, visually, you're you're you're there. You're inherently being told that, you know, he is the villain. But really, he's Russia. He represents Russia.
Jim:And at the time, every movie that had any kind of Russian undertone, that's the villain. To me, he is he is the visual representation of the country as the villain.
Ocean:The distinction that I'm, at least looking at or I've been thinking about now that I've seen this oh, I don't know. Now that I've seen this movie 15 times, I think I can talk about it a bit more. Is you know, there's the symbolism of what he is, you know, the the the entire cold war perspective of of it and where it is a very, very overt, American propaganda cold war type message of, you know, United States versus Russia.
Jim:Right.
Ocean:Yep. But in it, it whether or not Drago himself is a legitimate villain. You know, there's this situation. You you know? Yes.
Ocean:He does represent different things, but at the end of the day, you know, he's an amateur boxer. He's never lost as an amateur. He wants to fight. He wants to go protest himself out. He get a little, I would think, get a little cash, but then he's you know, he it's Russia doing the Soviet Union, so he may not be getting that much money.
Jim:No. He's getting some extra potatoes.
Ocean:He's a professional who is still somewhat representing his country, but he himself, he he's just a fighter. And that he's he's just trying to, you know, prove that he is the best in the world. And so then but is that then, you know, the the all of the geopolitical thing ramifications at the time, dude definitely paint him to be a villain, but then in effect, is that really his fault? You know? Because he's just he's like, look.
Ocean:I'm I'm just trying to, like, you know, win. And so if if if it's the geopolitical part of things that make him the villain, that's, you know, that's one thing. But then the other part is, like, is he, like, just, you know, right guy in the wrong place? You know, I guess wrong place, wrong time.
Jim:Wrong.
Ocean:Yeah. Where he's like, yeah, he just happened to be the best thing they had right there. You know, they they do a little bit of the villainy with them at the end of the first fight with Apollo Creed, which we'll definitely wanna I wanted to dig into that a bit more, but outside of that, it was it seemed to be that he was really being castigated into a role that he didn't really ask for, or I I don't know that his character deserved, you know, because he didn't really say anything.
Jim:Nine lines or something like that. Right?
Ocean:Yes. No. In in the entire movie, he, says 46 words in 91 minutes. And Nice. Yeah.
Ocean:And, honestly, he didn't I don't I'm trying to remember if he said much of anything before the first fight. You know, which I guess let's just talk about that. So in in the first fight, the fight with Apollo Creed. Right? There is the the the press conference they have beforehand.
Ocean:And even in that press conference, he's not talking. It's all his wife, who which is played by Brigitte Nielsen, and then, the the proper the main Russian propaganda guy, which I don't I don't remember that character's name. Slobanov? Slobanov. Yeah.
Ocean:Wow. Wow. Yeah. Exactly. Well, hey, man.
Ocean:It's it's it's USSR. You gotta you gotta you have to, work your way up however you can. And so but, like and he doesn't really say anything. He just is, like, he's just he's just there. They do the little demonstration about whatever he hits, he destroys.
Ocean:You know? And all that's great. You know? And so, but they you know, in the first fight, when they cascade him out as he, as he comes up in the risers of the you know, for the for the first fight, which is already crazy because that no boxing match starts that way. You don't have it, like, a a ring below ground that just gets risen at the end with, you know, like Right.
Ocean:Here is our great villain in this thing. You know? And he's just kinda looking around, like, with all the lights and everything in the James Brown singing like that, and then Paula Kree's dancing around. He's like, hey. This is not like a regular fight here, is it?
Ocean:You know, all this promotion. And so but even in all of that, he basically just stays there, you know, keeps his calm, doesn't really do much of anything, and just, you know, is just, you know, being a fighter. And so I think that there is, there's an aspect of his character where it's, you know, I guess the argument that I'm wondering is can you say that, you know, he's not really evil. He's he's just misunderstood.
Jim:Yeah. I mean, if you're taking a look at him, he's definitely just wanting to be that that boxer. Right? He wants to be known as the best of the world and, you know, the USSR is using him as a platform And, yeah, so he's misunderstood. I think, you know, for me, one one perspective I don't really understand and maybe you can help me out with from, you know, your boxing historian aspects.
Jim:I don't believe that I've ever seen an amateur boxer get that much attention against You mean
Ocean:right out of the gate?
Jim:Yeah. Just right out of the gate. Just I mean, maybe I mean, I was trying to think, like, even, like, what what some some great Olympic boxers received us right after right after the Olympics. But, you know, most of those guys, it took 2 or 3 years before they even got a a chance for a big time fight. And even though the fight against Apollo is, you know, an exhibition match, I'd you know, no.
Jim:I I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember thinking anything that I ever saw in the eighties, nineties, or even now. So I was was wondering from that perspective.
Ocean:Well, nothing that fast. You know, there is the the Olympic ones, while there were some that, like, you know, like with Sugar Ray Leonard, honestly, even Evander Holyfield, the cruiserweights when he came out because he he was a cruiserweight. Roy Jones junior, light heavyweight when he came out of, out of amateur boxing. And really also, the, you know, things with Muhammad Ali and and, I don't know if Joe Frazier did amateur. George Foreman did and George Foreman.
Ocean:Right? With those with those names, and those are the names I'm just gonna kind of throw around as far as that. They had they were big deal amateur fighters that then weren't turned pro. They were not given title shots right away. Part of that was, you know, their managers and their management skill was like, hey, you will be champion one day, but you're not ready today.
Ocean:So let's not get you let's not put you in too deep of a water before you get used to how professional fighters and how professional fighting works. And so I think that that so as far as the historical context, no, that wouldn't be something that would normally happen, but then effectively though, this this one is slightly different in that it is an exhibition. It's an exhibition against a former, world heavyweight champion who, has been retired now for, I don't know, I think in the Rocky University, been retired for about 6 or 7 years now. And then I
Jim:think he said 5.
Ocean:Is it 5? Okay. So Yeah. So he's been retired for 5 years. And his exhibition felt, and the and the champ challenged him, you know, because he did not Drago and Drago's people were not, hey, we wanna fight Apollo Creed.
Ocean:They said we wanted to fight Rocky Balboa, and then Apollo Creed challenges them, and then Rocky Rocky's not answering. You know, he's he's like new number who this. And then, they so it then becomes, okay. We now have a big name because Apollo Creed is a big name, and it's actually there's a part of this from the fight perspective where it's like, okay. So the, you know, the the the way Drago just basically destroyed him was was was overwhelming.
Ocean:You know? Like, it was it was to the point of where you have that amazing entrance of all that stuff that goes on there, and then they're boxing around. Everything kinda says, fine like that. Apollo's moving and stuff like that. He does a few hits and everything, and then the second he takes one punch, you're like, okay.
Ocean:Let's stop the fight. Yeah.
Jim:You know, it's
Ocean:like you're like, we're done. Right? And so that that it was just overwhelming, and the the aspect of it too is that, you know, there is in the movie universe, how Apollo Creed is viewed differently now from Rocky, Rocky 2 to now. Because one of the things about Apollo's career was it when Rocky, the first movie happened, he's undefeated, you know, and so he wins that fight. He's undefeated.
Ocean:He wins that fight. He stays undefeated. He fights a few other people. He stays champion, and then Rocky 2 happens. Right?
Ocean:And then in Rocky 2, he moves it by one second, and one second away. As far as I can tell, after that, he never he never fought again. And so that means then, effectively, his record is I don't know how many wins he had right now, but however many wins and won. Right. You know?
Ocean:And then it and that one was a one second knock it was that Rocky 2 fight, and that was it. And so it it is a thing where when they're when they say how in Russia, like, when Virginia is, like, in Russia, Apollo Creed is a well respected fighter. We really love, you know, love him, and it'd be great to have a victory over him. You know, that's a really true statement because really up to this point, no one has ever beaten him in a ring other than Rocky. No.
Ocean:That's a very good point. Even 5 years retired, if a fighter with that type of a resume comes up to you and says, I wanna fight you on your first fight, well, of course, you're gonna say yes, especially if you think you can win, which clearly.
Jim:Clearly.
Ocean:Clearly. Yeah. That wasn't even a question mark. Right? So so I think that, you know, the combination of events, while I do not think any of that would happen in the real world, for a multitude of reasons, but the one of the main reasons is to have a fighter in the scenario of Apollo Creed.
Ocean:Given your resume and your name, you could have fought anybody. Right. Especially in only 5 years. Right? Exactly.
Ocean:It's only 5 years. You don't you don't need this. You you can you could find some other top ten guy or whatever that you think is on the up and come up up and coming and say, you know what? I just wanna test myself again. You you could have gone a wholly different route than this where you find some dude that you've only seen a picture of and have no idea about anything about him.
Ocean:You haven't seen any of his fights. You know nothing about him. You know? So that's not so, yeah, so the so you you're already at a point of where it's like we're gonna suspend disbelief that you would even go this route. You know?
Ocean:And and that you're a professional fighter, and you'd fight someone that you've, never seen fight before. And let's face it. The only time you ever did that in your career didn't turn out the way you thought.
Speaker 3:Right.
Jim:So what do what do you think Apollo was trying to prove in that moment, though?
Ocean:You mean by fighting Drago?
Jim:Yeah.
Ocean:You know, I think they do a good job of portraying that in the in the movie where it is effectively, he feels like he is not important, not loved enough, he's the has been or, you know, has been, and he doesn't have a real challenge. And and there is a part of that which I which I do get. There is the thing of where the arc of the character in 2 so in 1 and 2, he is the champ, so that's all going on.
Speaker 3:Right.
Ocean:And in 3, even though he's he's just the ex champ, in 3, he then, in a in effect, takes on Rocky's, you know, training Rocky and everything to then get him back to get him back to the title. That that did not mean that he was gonna be his trainer from then on. It just meant that I I was able to get you to the point that you could beat Club Alang. And got him to that point. They won that fight.
Ocean:Everything's great. What's his challenge now? What's the goal now? You know, and I think that he just didn't feel that he had one, and he saw that on the television and decided, hey. This is, here is a new challenge, and I wanna try to tackle this mountain.
Jim:When he was explaining it and really in that heartfelt moment of, like, I don't have I don't have anything else. I gotta I gotta fight for this. I wanna fight for me. Everybody's gonna look at me to to defend the country. Right?
Jim:Is one of his other comments too that, you know, he just wanted to pick it up. Nobody else was gonna do it, so I'm gonna do it type of mentality. But, I mean, I I don't think
Ocean:that's true. There wasn't nobody else is gonna do it.
Jim:Someone else would have done it. Right. That's and that's what I was about to say too because it was, like, somebody in that moment, 5 years sure, but, like, you're saying could have picked somebody else if you wanted to come out of retirement to start boxing again. To me, it's believable for the character. Do you believe that it's believable to the character that he would have stood up for the country, but also for really what he was saying?
Jim:Like, I have nothing left. Like, I gotta I want I want another generation to to hear my name and and breathe my name. For the country,
Ocean:no. For himself, yes. You know, a lot of times people talk about cut fighters coming back for the money and all that and everything. I mean, sometimes there is that, like what Joe Louis was broke at the end of his life. Right?
Ocean:Yeah. He came back for that. But for the most part, I think that it's it's like a drug. It's like to be in a in a ring and then thousands of people are cheering for you and screaming your name, even just the walkout when they announce your name, like that feeling that that fighter's getting everything from that. There is in very few things in life when you leave the sporting arena, is there something like that, where that would happen?
Ocean:And so, you know, you I think a lot of him, he wants that back. The the fact that people would talk to him and tell him how much they respect him and care for him and love him all that, that isn't enough. He needs that immediate adoration that immediate adoration, gratification, and then also the the feeling alongside the feeling of, I I need to conquer the next challenge. He just didn't have an he didn't have a next challenge, and and that and he was looking for that.
Jim:I I completely, am in line with you on that, especially with, you know, some of the recent events of, you know, some of the celebrity fights that are going on. You know, I know in one interview, the Mike Tyson, Jake Paul fight, you know, Mike Tyson was talking about more of the, I wanna be able to prove to myself that I can do this again, you know, and get back into the, like, in shape and all that, which I think was great for him and kind of to Apollo's point, like, mentally. Like, I wanna be able to prove that I can do this, and I'm gonna prove to everybody else that I can still do this. And then you can't you can't remove the competitor from the situation no matter where you retire or what you remove yourself from. I mean, I could go on as to why I ended up starting playing lacrosse again.
Jim:You know, I was like 45 year old guy who left the sport for a few years and then decided to play it again. It's just you. It's the camaraderie around everybody and then the competitiveness. You you don't get that in the office. No.
Jim:There's different competitiveness there, but it's not like it's not the same. It's just not the same.
Ocean:Let's talk about the re entrance. Yes. The song by James Brown living in America, which was great. It was interestingly enough his first top ten hit in 18 years. He basically hadn't had a hit since, oh, goodness.
Ocean:It was, like, 1967, with a song called, like, I feel it. And when I say a hit, I'm talking about him on, like, the the pop charts. He on the r and b charts. He's always he's always man. But the yeah.
Ocean:But it was, like, his first big hit in a while, and then and then the the entertainment of that song, all the dancing around, when you do that type of an entrance, it's more like you you are expecting us to be. Like, it's an exhibition. We're just gonna do this with a match. We're gonna do this with a match. Not a big deal.
Ocean:Yeah. Yeah. It's not a it's not a this isn't a real fight. We forgot to tell our, and I'm gonna use air quotes here, villain that this is not a real fight because he he was like, no, no, no. This is a real fight.
Jim:It was lost in translation. Right? I mean, that's a real issue.
Ocean:It really was. Yes. Yeah. They they did not explain it in the in the appropriate Russian that this is not a real fight. This movie was the first time where the ring entrance felt like a training montage.
Ocean:You know, that it was like a thing of, like, I was now getting ready for the fight. And at least for look. If you saw any of the trailers for this, you knew that Drago and Rocky had to fight. The only way for that to happen is that, you know, Apollo has to lose his fight. But for at least 45 seconds, you really did kinda start thinking, like, you know what?
Ocean:I think Apollo could win.
Jim:Right. Yeah. I mean, he was looking good too. Right? He was completely cut, glistening like he just had the best warm up, and he's upbeat, and he's got that smile as he's dancing next to that big gold eagle that's bringing him
Speaker 3:down. Yep. And he
Jim:got all the fireworks going off. Yeah. It it was I rewatching this now as an adult versus whenever the last time it was that I've watched. I know you mentioned you've seen it 15 times or so. I I I definitely don't remember how many times I've seen this.
Jim:It's been a minute since I've seen it, but that whole entrance just blew my mind because this movie came out mid eighties. Right? 87? And I've still have yet to see an entrance like that for any kind of major fight in UFC boxing or even really WWF, WWE. I mean, there's been a couple of really cool entrances, but nothing like that.
Jim:You had a live you had James Brown. You had all those dancers. You had all those people up in the ceilings doing things that weren't necessarily a regular, aerial dance thing that I remember in the eighties. I just, you know, I remember seeing stuff like in Vegas and and whatnot in the later on in the nineties. But I mean, it was just it it's it's a spectacular entrance for an exhibition match.
Ocean:Yeah. I I can give you one. There's one, entrance that I saw in real life, and that was on, February 5th in 2005. Corey Spinks fought Zab Judah, and they fought in St. Louis, Missouri.
Ocean:And Corey Spinks is from St. Louis. He was, Corey Spinks is he's Michael Spinks's kid. Nelly brought out, which, I mean, you have to be alive at the time, I think, for most people to even know who Nelly is. But Nelly brought him out, also from, Saint Louis who had, like, a song that does a big deal at the time, and it was the biggest ruckus, like, the the song, not that anything, the crowd, the music, and everything about the way he he of course, Binks danced the whole way to the ring.
Ocean:He did a whole thing where he started doing some gyrations when he got to the top of the ring that made the crowd actually move from one side to the other side. Like, one side was, like, yelling at first, and the other side is going back and forth. It was just it was the most amazing ring entrance that I've ever seen in real life, and it was the closest I've ever seen to something like this crazy. And, also, he also lost the lost that fight. But, Corey Spinks, after this amazing re entrance, he he did get, he got knocked out in the 9th round by Azab Judah.
Ocean:But it was an amazing re entry entrance. It was it was awesome. And so that's the closest that's the only thing I've ever seen that's anywhere near it, in real life.
Jim:Alright. Alright. Well, I'll I'll definitely take that from you because I know that you've seen a a lot of fights.
Ocean:Yeah. That was all. It's all a lot then. And so yeah. So, you know, the aspect of that, when you have that type of reentrance and then all the the the the priming and the primping and the, you know, doing the thing with his hair and all that that he cared about, all the all the pomp and circumstance, they announced Rocky out of his corner and everything, that that's to do all that for the first fight.
Ocean:That then after that, when it becomes a fight and you, you know, are really like yelling stop the fight after the first punch, and the thing keeps going, I think that it's I guess I think about and this seemed to be the fight itself just seemed to be we're going to sacrifice a beloved character in a sense to give us our rocky formula, which is the they, you know, they lose the first fight, they win the next you know, the first fight's a loss, sacrifices second fight is a win, and that it was like, well, this is what we're just gonna do. And so, because they took someone that had you know, that should have been a great fighter, then, you know, maybe he can go out on on on a shield in a sense, but then just made it to the ridiculous point of where he not only loses the fight, which is, you know, reasonable, but is killed.
Jim:Killed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Just dead.
Jim:Yeah. And and you're right. That does set up the the formula right away because that's now the next logical fighter for Drago is Rocky. That's what they're gonna ask for, and that's what they ask for immediately. And therein lies the formula as you were saying.
Jim:Now now now you have this belief that, oh, dear god. Rocky's smaller smaller than Apollo, you're gonna get you're gonna get thumped. You're gonna get whooped, and you're gonna die in the first round.
Ocean:The last thing I will say then about one of the things that I'll just correct the Apollo Creed is that his record was going into the fight, 48 and 1 with 46 knockouts. That's his record. Yeah.
Jim:I was gonna say I was gonna say I thought it was something in the high forties. I wish I would have said something now. Now.
Ocean:Yeah. It it it's it's insane. You know? So the so the fact that a fighter that, a fighter with that type of a record would need to resort to something like this is the, you know, the part that's ridiculous about it. But but, you know what, hey.
Ocean:The reentrance was great. The song was amazing, and then you had all of the other stuff about, what happened in the fight.
Jim:He gets pummeled on the first hit. It's I mean
Ocean:Yeah. And and we definitely should talk more about that fight later in this later on in the episode. But, would you like to hear more of the Adrian moment? Our supporting members will hear a bonus segment at the end of each episode. And for this week, we are going to discuss, did Rocky 4 end the cold war?
Speaker 3:If I can change and you can change
Ocean:We move to his minitza.
Speaker 3:Everybody can change.
Ocean:One other thing about this movie is, it is the, I think, one of the best versions I've ever seen of taking the tried and true trope of all sports movies, and that is the training montage and ramping that up to 11. Hell, yeah. So while I would while I would normally say, what did you think of the training montage? Rocky 4 is is a special kind of movie to where the question is, which is your favorite training montage in this movie?
Jim:Oh, man. I mean, it is a hard one to pick. My favorite has gotta be the build up to him running up to the mountain. You know? He's already there in Russia, and, you know, he's he's he's starting to feel like he can do it.
Jim:Now he's climbing that mountain. Right? And it's just the it's your stereotypical Rocky. It's what you expect, but it's just the buildup that you see, the the sweating and the uncharacteristics of his training environment, especially versus, you know, Drago's training environment being all scientific and special, and he's the strongest human being. It's impossible for anybody to beat him.
Jim:And here's Rocky putting on his, his ox yoke, and I'm just getting all yoked up myself just thinking,
Speaker 3:you know what? I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna find something like a
Jim:railroad tie, and I'm gonna put that
Speaker 3:on the back of my neck, and I'm just gonna spur
Jim:or start climbing up hills and stuff. Like, that
Ocean:It was basically a railroad tie. Yeah. He's, like, he's going up the yeah. Right. He's going up the mountain on the side or that's just in the snow.
Ocean:With the drill tight, he kinda falls and stumbles a bit. Yeah. So Right.
Jim:Yeah. But, I mean, it's just the the whole movie, it sets the precedent of what training montage should be for any sport movie. It's just it really hits home, because I love that he's going into it with minimum equipment. He's just going right into a barn where they're just feeding fire and just like, let me put these rocks into a big old net and just start pulling on them and just doing just the craziest things that you could possibly imagine where, you know, like today, you could go to some CrossFit place and you could hit a sledgehammer on a tire. But no, no, not Rocky.
Jim:Yep. He, like, set the precedent of this is the uncharacteristics of training with whatever you have, rocks, wood, whatever, chopping wood in the in the snow, running with these big crazy boots as a Mercedes is chasing you. Who cares?
Ocean:It it doesn't matter. It's all good. What about you? What was your favorite work? That one was the oh, goodness.
Ocean:I you know, and I'm when you're talking too, I'm trying to remember. I think that was that was the running up the mountain at the end. That's the one where they were playing hearts on fire because there's Yeah. Really and sadly, not sadly. Sadly is a music term.
Ocean:Amazingly, because I've seen this so much. I I I know which song it is by their names. And, you know, and so that was the the Hearts on Fire because the the other thing about that one, was especially with Go With the Mountain at the end. That's the one right before the fight. And so in that one, they they do another thing that I thought was interesting in the in the Rocky movies of a real good job of showing both fighters in their training and that you're providing a juxtaposition of of what they're doing in that where Rocky is basically returning to his original Rocky 1 roots where it's like he has no money, and he just is like, well, I don't have I can't afford weight, so we're just gonna fix some rocks, or I'm just gonna chop some wood.
Ocean:You know? I can't I can't do anything else. You know? Yeah. I was Zach.
Ocean:I'm a chase the chicken. And then it was it was also interesting where, you know, when you get when they get there, that, you know, Paul is like, well, how are we gonna spar? And and Rocky's like, well, the only thing I need that, you know, which is kind of it's an interesting thing when we think about, like, a a fighter at that level. It is kinda like, well, you know, do you need to spar? You know?
Ocean:So it's like, you know, that that I thought that was I just thought that was a little interesting throw away. Anyway, the, yeah, that that scene was great. I like the juxtaposition. It is the of course, when they do the big reveal that Drago is cheating because he's taking steroids. Oh.
Ocean:Yeah. I know. Way. Exactly. Because Rocky got that body all natural.
Ocean:And so steroids and Russians? What? Exactly. What? See, who who would have thought who would have thought it?
Ocean:Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. This has never happened. So, anyway, the, you know, and and that scene, but the I like the juxtaposition.
Ocean:I thought it was great. I really found that. So I I guess the the main thing that I wanted you know, look, Rocky is big Rocky 4 was one big training montage, and so therefore, I think all of them should get their their due. Whereas, as I said earlier, living in America really is just a training montage for Apollo Creed to get to that fight because quite honestly, he was dancing around and working out enough that I think maybe he did, you know, he had a little bit of work out on the way in there. The one that you had was hearts on fire, which was which was the one at the end.
Ocean:They also have one oh, it was with the burning heart one, which is the before. So there is, there's 2 training montages when he's in Russia. There's the one with burning heart, and that's when he first starts running, and he's doing all the stumbling. And then, you know, he does all the stumbling, and then that's before Adrian shows up. And then Adrian shows up, and then his heart's on fire wherever he's succeeding.
Ocean:He's able to get everywhere and, you know, do everything. But, you know, so those those 2. Then there is the one which I do think is interesting about the whole burning heart part, which was the scene when they land. They being Pauley, Rocky, and Duke land in Russia. They start playing the song.
Ocean:And it's like, you've basically turned an airplane landing into, like, a little you're getting me in the mood for the white train montage. It's like, it's just an airplane landing. You know? And it's like you know? And I'm like, so I'm supposed to it's like, wait a minute.
Ocean:You're getting me ready for the fight, but it's just, you know, they're just now showing up.
Jim:Right.
Ocean:You know? And so there's that one. And then all of that preamble is to what is really my favorite one, which is, the one where they played no easy way out, which is the scene when after Adrian tells him he can't win, Rocky decides to take a drive to clear his head. And that really, that song is is such a perfect 80 soundtrack song. I mean, really, a lot of this this the whole thing is just if you like eighties cheesy soundtrack stuff, this is it.
Ocean:This this is this might be the the the really the the magnum opus of eighties soundtracks for training montages ever, ever made. But anyway, that's so no easy way out. It's perfect eighties song, and really, it it it also goes to the unless you experience the emotions that Rocky's going through, where he is, you know, at first, he is being reminiscing and when loving, like, the the early challenges of Apollo and the training he was doing and how things were simple and life was great back then, and how he and Adrian first met, and they were hooking up and dating and life had was all full of promise. And then, he's reminiscing when they finally achieve that promise and that goal and everything. They'd become a heavyweight champion.
Ocean:They get rich. They get money. They get married. Everything is wonderful and beautiful, then they defend, then they have a little bit of stumble, then he takes out Clubber Lang. And then it transitions as well back to the whole idea of, like, he now recognizes that he has to face Drago, who he is then equating to this, you know, killer effectively, you know, and that his you know, any fear or trepidation he has of that because he's related back to his first real defeat, which was Clubberlane because Clubberlane was the first guy that really got him, you know, that really beat him, you know, and and beat him that badly.
Ocean:And that he is equating to that and dealing with his fear and apprehension, and then the all of that is wrapped into a, to a fast paced, fun, exciting song with a bunch of flashbacks. And I was like, you've given me tons of exposition without someone actually talking. And I was like, this to me is the greatest moment of this movie.
Jim:One of the reasons why I like it as, like, a low key, quote, unquote, training type montage Mhmm. Is we as humans, we've all been there. We've all gotten into a car, throw on some of your favorite tunes and think about something that either just happened or a conversation that you're gonna have or, you know, something that you needed to work up the courage to be able to do. We Yes. We all had that moment.
Jim:And visually in the movie, sure, it's not in a Lambo for myself. Anytime that I've ever gotten into a car and thrown in some music, it's not a yeah. It's not a Lamborghini, unlike Rocky. You know, he's got a really cool car that he's doing this. But we've all we've all been there.
Jim:We've all done this.
Ocean:We're not doing it in the school for cars Rocky. No.
Jim:Right. No. It's not. But still, I mean, we've all done it. And that's one of the reasons why I like I think it's, like, one of those low key moments that somebody could just let that pass by.
Jim:Somebody might even wanna fast forward through that because there's no talking like you're saying. And it's just a flashback. And it's just like,
Speaker 3:oh, okay. Cool. Whatever.
Jim:You know, I'm just gonna no. It's it's a great moment. It's a it's a it's a great moment. It's not the best moment, like you said, of the movie. It's not a pivotal moment of the movie, but it's the way that it is shot, I think it just is it's it's something that we can easily relate to because we've all been there.
Ocean:Out outside of all that, and believe me, I can talk about these training montages for a day. But there's there's a We
Jim:can have, like, a whole another show just about.
Ocean:Yeah. I could just yeah. Because that's that's the movie. The other aspect of it, given the division of the 2 training montages between the song Burning Heart and, Hearts on Fire. I think it's Burning Heart and Hearts on Fire, the 2 songs, where it's the first half of when he's in Russian and the second half, and how it is really split in half by, in this movie, the very obvious Adrian moment, and so I would never wanna have a movie about our namesake without discussing what her moment was.
Ocean:And in this movie, which is interesting in some ways given that in all of the Rocky movies, at least the first four, which I will admit that existed, she, the she her role in this one is much, much less than it is in the first three. And so they the you still have, in effect, the Adrian moment of, you know, when she, comes you know, when she finally arrives in Russia and then tells you know, when she arrives in Russia and says that I'll, you know, I'll I will be with you until the end, you know, that's like, okay. Well, here's your Adrian moment. That's her coming and saying, you know, that way he will now feel that he, can, get his mind right and, actually do do what he needs to do, put his body through what he has to put it through, and and and actually, you know, do all the work and everything it's gonna take to then finally defeat this, what we've been told is this unstoppable monster of a force, a force of a monster, and so I think that, you know, that is the obvious part of it, and but it's it's small and understated versus other things, especially given her whole role.
Ocean:Because effectively, she just tells him that he can't win. He goes to Russia, then she's like, I'm with you till the end. And then that was it. And and it's it is while it is important and pivotal to the movie and to his to his arc, I found it to be well, I thought her role should have been bigger or at least bigger commensurate to what had been in the first three movies.
Jim:I think it's big only because it's not visually, it's not as big as all the others. She doesn't have as many lines, definitely. She's a little bit more open and cheerier, than some of her cold, dark self, like in the first and second one. But it's it's big at the moment that she shows up. As soon as there's boots on the snow and he sees her, like you're saying, that is the Adrian moment.
Jim:And that right there is is the big moment because last we saw, she's like, whatever, dude. You're done. Yeah. I'll I'll see you in a body bag
Ocean:when you come in. Exactly. Right.
Jim:Right. Right. Right. I mean, she didn't say that, but, I mean, it's it definitely gives, like, a cold vibe of, like, yeah. I'll see you when you're when you're dead.
Ocean:Yeah. Exactly. I'll collect the life insurance. It does come across that. And I and I I I did I did mistake what she said.
Ocean:She said that she was gonna be with him no matter what. And I was like, you know, no matter what, no matter what. And then they do the kiss, and then that's it. That's it. And so in these movies, I do, a lot of times look for, especially given our show, what the aging moment is and then and then the Rocky movies.
Ocean:I mean, they're all gonna happen. It it was, on the scale of the Rocky movies, this was the most just oh, I don't know. I it feels like straightforward afterthought thing. Like, it was it felt more pain by numbers. Like, we have to we have to reconcile this for him to move on, so then we're just going to do it in this in this 22nd piece, and then let's let's get back to the montages.
Jim:Right. Yeah. Let's just visually show that she's here. And now all of a sudden, just like the stock market, now he's running up a mountain. You know?
Jim:It's like, I mean, all the visuals are there because it's
Ocean:like,
Jim:you get to the peak and, yay. Well, how did you get up there? Oh, she showed up. Oh, okay. Cool.
Jim:Alright. Let's get back to let's get back to fighting.
Ocean:Yes. Let's get to the montage. Alright. So okay. You know what?
Ocean:That is true. Let's get back to fight. I think one of the final topics or one of the last things I wanna discuss with this is how it portrayed the sport. So I have a lot of thoughts. What is your opinion?
Ocean:How well do you think Rocky portrays the sport of boxing?
Jim:From an entertainment perspective, I think it does a really good job. And I'm not a trained fighter or anything like that, and I understand that, you know, there's significant significant differences between the style of any fighter or any camp or anything that they're doing as they're coming into a fight. But I to me, what I really like is the portrayal of 2 different camps. And, you know, let's not talk about how some of the some of the hits look like they actually are getting hit really hard in the portrayal of the physicality of the of the sport.
Ocean:Well, they are. You know, like, I think that I think that has something to talk about when you talk about the portrayal of sport. They are. They they are when they shot these films, they're hitting each other.
Jim:Really? Yes. But this is the but this is one of the only ones that they were hitting each other because in the rocky one, they weren't hitting each other. It was
Ocean:I don't know about that one. Punches big. In in 3 and on, they were. And part of that was because of I think a lot of that was because of Sebastian Stone's a little bit, little bit nuts with this, and then the people he picked, you know, because mister T was a boxer in 13th, and and and Dolph Lundgren, you know, he was a kickboxer. So so then, you know, they could, you know, you they they not only could do do that where they're actually hitting each other, they would be comfortable with that happening, you know, because Right.
Ocean:He's not a Rocky too for the most part. For the most part, he's doing everything with, you know, with Carl Weathers, who is an actor. Right? He is not he's not here to get punched in the face. No.
Ocean:You know? He's not about that. Right? You know? So that's not gonna be this.
Ocean:He will he may do it some here and there, but he's not really gonna be, you know, he's not really gonna be all in on that. Whereas Well,
Jim:he had to look pretty for Star Wars and stuff. So Well, it may And everything else he was doing.
Ocean:Look. That math looked pretty for everything he's doing. You know? I mean, he was pretty happy Gilmore on one hand. So anyway, us.
Ocean:So so yes. So once 3 and on, when you look at it, they're the the other fighters that that he has in these movies, they're they're all professional fighters or either are professional fighters or were professional fighters. So they would be okay with the fact that, like, yeah, we're gonna hit you. They're not gonna I don't think they're hitting each other hard. I mean No.
Ocean:Well, that's not even true. There is one where, Dolph Lundgren, you know, put him in puts a vessel in the hospital. He hit him so hard. Oh,
Jim:that's right.
Ocean:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, hit him in chest and went to go to the ICU. So they Yeah.
Ocean:They are hitting hard somewhat here and there, but it I think that that's what it is. From 3 on, they are hitting each other, and I think that does add to, for example, why the fight scenes are better, you know, from the from later on. Because you can you can do a lot of stuff with choreography and edits and jumps and all that, and all that stuff can be great. But at the end of the day, there is a lot more you can do if the if they actually punch each other.
Jim:True. And it makes the sweat look better, you know, on camera, you know? It does
Ocean:when it's flying off the face. Yeah. Because you yeah.
Jim:Yeah. Rather than just, like, trying to push the sweat off your face as you're whipping your head by as you're, you know, clearly throw you know, getting thrown a punch, but you're dodging it. And it's not it's not going to spray the same way. No, that's a that's a very good point. I didn't realize that they were actually making connection, but, you know, the visuals of it would definitely support that.
Jim:And it's yeah. It it's this can we talk about the visuals of of it, though? Like Absolutely. How dark the ring is or how light the ring is. It's very bright, and everything else is dark around it.
Jim:I love how they got that. And I know that Sylvester Stallone is
Ocean:Which which ring? You mean the the final fight scene or the Yeah. The final.
Jim:The one in Russia.
Ocean:The one in Russia. The one in Russia. Okay. Yeah.
Jim:You know, the the just just normally when you're watching like a pay per view or even, just any fight in general, normally, you know, the ring is lit up really well and you can't really see beyond like maybe the first couple of rows of of of celebrities. And, but just the way that they got it and just, I don't know, just the the lighting on on their faces and everything as they're getting beat beat up to all pulp. It's it's shot very, very nicely. And I know that's not necessarily specific to the sport, how everything is represented in the sport, but the wide shots, I believe, definitely make me feel. And I cannot definitely understand now with your story as a as a child, as you're sitting there watching it in a movie theater, why it would feel so real on the day of Christmas.
Jim:Here's this fight, and it just it looked just like anything that we would have watched on CBS or ABC with our with our parents on Friday night, fright night.
Ocean:Yeah. I I definitely agree with that as far as the contact and how things looked. I think that, though, there is a large amount of fiction in how the sport is portrayed. And I think that what and what I mean by that is, let's talk about the Apollo Creed fight. Yeah.
Ocean:So Let's do that. Fight would have gotten stopped after the 3rd punch. There's no way there's no way they would love to continue. And even if even if you believe that they will that that a referee would allow that to continue, because that is a thing of where there is definitely in boxing where sometimes referees will let fighters go a little bit longer if they've known to been able to take punishment and and whether that storm may keep going. Paula Creed with his record, I'm sure, would have been in that that that would have been in that category, but, also, they only allow that when there's a title on the line.
Ocean:You know, when it's just a regular fight, even though even if there was an exhibition, which doesn't count as a professional record, but then when it's a, you know, it's an exhibition or, you know, just even a regular fight, they don't let them go that long. That, you know, because if it's a title, that's kinda like we'll we'll we'll let you effectively, the the term is to go out on your shield. And going out on your shield means, like, we're gonna let it we're gonna let you keep going until he knocks you out, and that's fine. And so and that happens, but in this fight, after about the 3rd punch, it's clear that he's got nothing for him. And and then the end of the even if you let things go a bit longer, the end of that first round, it is painfully obvious that basically not basically.
Ocean:Let me rephrase that. It is painfully obvious because Apollo Creed is standing up, leaning up against the ropes with his hands down, just taking punches to the face. Yeah.
Jim:He can't defend himself.
Ocean:Exactly. He cannot. And in in boxing, in that scenario, that is a knockdown. You would pull your arm off, and you would count him up. You count count him start counting because the ropes were literally the only thing holding him up.
Ocean:You know? So, otherwise, he would've just, you know, fall falling down and collapsed then. And so in that whole scenario, even if even if, which is a big if, any referee would have let the fight go that far, it's over after that round. Like, they they would look at him walking around the corner, and we're just done. You know, there's not there's no there's no sane way that they would do that round.
Ocean:He would sit down in that corner for a minute, and then they'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on back out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jim:Oh, you got this champ.
Ocean:You got this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and that is the thing with now I think this this is a fair criticism of really all the Rocky movies.
Ocean:You know, the the visuals of the fights and everything are great, but there is oh. The technicality of it. Like, is there a technicality of it? Like, there's, you know, especially in 4, and I can probably find it in some of the 3 and 2 as well where it's like, you know, these fights would not have they would not have allowed these fights to continue. Right.
Ocean:You know? And so the Apollo Creed one is the most egregious one. But even in even in the final fight, there's scenes where when Drago starts knocking him down over and over again or even there's nothing let him do that's illegal where Rocky goes down. The referee doesn't even count, and then Drago runs across the screen and punches him again. You know, that's it's just like, you know, that that wouldn't happen or the whole, like, okay.
Ocean:You knocked you down. You stand in 8 count. Okay. Get up. Dust your gloves.
Ocean:Bam. You're down to 1 more punch. The referee would be like, okay. You're done. You're done.
Ocean:Yep. You know, it's like you're you know, they're not gonna let you get back up. You know? And so it's like so there's that aspect of it where these fights just go way too long for any sort of believability. You know, but you juxtapose that with, I mean, it's Rocky.
Ocean:It's so much fun. Who cares? Let it go.
Jim:Right. You have you have to have the over the top dramatics of it Yeah. To definitely sell the story of, you know, the little guy beating the big guy or, you know, any of the political aspects of it that you could throw out there that, you know, Russia was this menacing power just like Drago, and we gotta come in and teach him a lesson somehow, some way. It's, yeah. It's just I've I'm glad that you mentioned that.
Jim:I because I was just looking at it more of, you know, the visual aspects. It's just it's beautiful, the way that it's shot, because it's it's very much like a boxing. But, yeah, the technicalities of these things are just over the top, and some of the punches are even crazy and just wildish and just sitting there. Not many fighters are like,
Speaker 3:come on, punch me harder in
Jim:the face. I it does happen. I've seen it. But it's just it's not like over the top the way that these 2 are going at it.
Ocean:Yes. And that is the, there is a part of this where I think that Rocky is deservedly, the the really the whole Rocky franchise. Deservedly greatest boxing, greatest grossing boxing franchise ever, greatest boxing movies, all the different accolades he gets for it, especially the first Rocky for what it was really doing. But then the the one thing about these movies that I that I do as a as a boxing fan, although now I will admit I am much more to the MMA than boxing, but as a boxing fan, it is a thing where it's like, yeah. This is just the boxing itself is is unrealistic.
Ocean:I understand that even the premise of First Fights now granted, the first one was, you know, inspired by an actual event that occurred. So, yeah, it was improbable, but this happened in real life, so we'll go with it. The other 2 you know, with 23, it all gets realistic. And then you're 4. You're right.
Ocean:There's the whole idea of, like, okay. Let's see if a Russian guy that comes over. He gets the next champ. He kills the guy, and then they and they fight again later. Right?
Ocean:But alongside of all of that part of the ridiculousness in in the terms of the business world of what it's portraying with Fox News, that that that this these fights would be allowed to continue, and they'd be allowed to be this way technically. That to me has while it always has kind of bothered me a bit, it really has never bothered me enough to remove my enjoyment
Jim:of it. But I can't watch it.
Ocean:But I do think that if you're discussing how they're doing, you know, it's like, well, yeah, this is kind of it's a bit far, and these fights wouldn't even stop. So even with all of that with the boxing, do you think that this movie could be made, with another sport?
Jim:No. I don't think so at all. I sure one could probably argue, you could probably throw in UFC, UFC, maybe kickboxing or something like that. I don't know. Maybe the I mean, the closest thing to it, if and it's a stretch, you know, it's like a karate, you know, like a karate kid.
Jim:Kid. Right? I mean, it's just
Ocean:Well, that was a legal kick in the face.
Speaker 3:Right. Sweep the leg, Johnny.
Jim:Yeah. I just I I don't think I would find it as enjoyable, and I don't know if I'm saying that because I'm just biased to the storyline of this being a boxing storyline. That's the vehicle of the sport. I just don't think I would for me, no. It has to stay boxy.
Jim:Have you seen any of the new the new ones, like, Creed or Apollo? Or
Ocean:Yes. I've seen all the Creed movies. Yeah.
Jim:Okay.
Ocean:What do you think? There's no there's no Apollo. There's just No. The Creed movies. Yeah.
Ocean:Yeah. Creed 123. Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. What do you think of those?
Ocean:I think that, and I guess where it would relate to this is that, you know, Creed 2 is the obvious sequel to this movie, and, Creed 2 humanizes the Drago character in a way that this movie never did, And so there is there's a lot that part of it I like as far as what they've done with the sequel. But what I think of those movies is, first of all, you know, Michael b Jordan is great. He's amazing. The first one is really, really good. It was a really great imaginative way to bring this back.
Ocean:They did a good job of washing over why he the character of Adonis Creed was not in any of the Rocky movies, and they make that work. And then from there, the going from, the first Creed movie and then jumping straight to, well, let's make, like, a Rocky 4 sequel with Creed 2, I thought was a genius stroke. And then the third one, the third one is fine. It it's it's a good movie. It works ish, but the the problem that, Creed has, which is the similar problem that these Rocky movies had was how to deal with these characters when they're on top.
Ocean:The Creed is really kind of an underdog character, really sells Rocky. Right. And they're always the underdog that is, you know, trying to come up to whatever. And so in Creed 3, which is the same, which is a similar problem they had in in the Rocky, which I think why they pivoted to the Rocky movie that I won't even discuss, is that, the, there is not a good template that they had or a way that they knew what to do with. And I'm I'm saying they, not just like Sylvester Stallone and his people, but even the people that were making Creed, you know, and all that, who they who they're they were great, but they don't know what to do with these characters when they're on top.
Ocean:And how do you make that, how do you make defending as, as engrossing or as entertaining as The Climb?
Jim:Right. Yeah. No. That's yeah. Because otherwise, it's always gonna be something similar to Rocky 4, like you're saying.
Jim:It's always gonna end up being you're at the top, so we have to have somebody that's bigger, better, faster, or whatever the case may be. A different opponent that's gonna strike fear into everybody else. And the belief of, oh, my dear champion is is gonna have to overcome something and real big adversity and become the champion at the end of it. Yeah. That is that's that's a very good point with these types of franchises that you once you get to the top, now what?
Ocean:Really, at that point, you are really discussing, I think, a failure of sports movies as a whole. And I guess failure isn't the right term, but it is the thing the thing with, sports movies, almost almost universally, not universally, but almost universally is, it is always about the team or the person or whatever that is should not make it, is unexpected to make it, not gonna do it, whatever. Like, there's some reason why every reason is that they shouldn't be able to achieve whatever the thing is that they achieve at the end, And and that is the underdog story that we all just love.
Jim:Right. I think, there's a lot of truth to that just probably in just humanity. You know, you either want to be that person who is at the top. So from a movie standpoint, you can't build a storyline that just shows, here, let me introduce you into these characters that are already on the top, and they're defending all these other guys and just swatting them away like flies. That's that's not an exciting storyline.
Jim:You can't just put yourself there and be like, hey, hey, this is relatable. But what's relatable is it is that buildup and the wonderment and, and some of the, you know, like it's almost like a fairy tale to some degree of how do I get from or do where he or she is at the top. There's that's almost more relatable than just jumping from where I'm at today to, boy, I really inspired to be Tiger Woods or I inspired to be Tom Brady or, you know, whomever. And boom, you're there. It's it's really hard to just put yourself there in that.
Jim:At least for me, they I wouldn't it would it would be a tough storyline to just instantly become relatable to.
Ocean:There is a movie called Tyson. It, came out in 1995, and it was started Michael j White who's played Tyson. And in the movie about Tyson, the the whole the movie starts with he's young and and, you know, he's a young near do well. Custom auto finds him, gets a hold of him, you know, starts training him, helps him out and everything like that. Goes he gets to amateurs, does really well.
Ocean:He rises to the ranks, and then they show it when he finally fights, you know, Trevor Burbank for the world, for the world boxing WBC heavyweight championship. And at 20 years of age, he wins, become the youngest champion. Right. Then the then with this movie, basically at that point, skips over most of all of those years of everybody loving when Tyson was just the man destroying everybody. Goes straight to custom auto dying.
Ocean:He's getting upset, and then it jumps to the Michael Spinks fight, which now the Michael Spinks fight definitely is one of his greatest fight. It is the most memorable fight of his career. Sure. Jumps right to that. He does that fight, and that's great.
Ocean:And then skips over that he actually defends the title quite a few more times, and then Busted Buckles happens. Right? Although maybe he only defended it between that maybe once or twice, but he's done it a couple of times, and then jump to Busted Buckles happens, which basically is saying that we've taken this life of, especially when you think about Mike Tyson in his prime, you you think about, oh, yeah. No. You we wanted the pay per view, and we expected it to last 90 seconds.
Ocean:If a Mike Tyson fight went to the 2nd round, you were like, what happened? You know? That's you're like you're like, no. I paid my gooder I paid my good mate to watch this dude knock somebody out in 90 seconds. That's what I'm here for.
Ocean:You know? And so you but you took the thing of where it's like, well, we've done a movie about someone whose reputation is the baddest man in the planet. He is, you know, what he was with Mike Tyson and all that. In the movie form, the part of the movie where it is he is the champ and he is defending is skipped. It's just straight to where are the pit points of adversity of where either he achieved more than we thought or he goes down.
Ocean:See, and I haven't I haven't seen that.
Jim:So now now I wanna
Ocean:Oh, it's it's a it's a very it's a very good movie. Okay. It is a it's yeah. It is a very good movie about Mike Tyson, but that is but that is the thing. And I think that is the the issue that we find a lot with, sports movies is you only wanna see someone be great.
Ocean:You only wanna see them become great.
Jim:Right. Because, I mean, are you gonna watch a a 90 minute movie about somebody just succeeding? And then what what's their story arc gonna be? The failure at the end, and then they rebuild themselves to be back to what they were? Or are you just gonna continue to watch them succeed?
Ocean:Does it have to be? Do you think someone could make a good movie about someone who is, like, a fighter that is defending their title? So, like, let's take Mike Tyson out of it. Let's take someone like, Larry Holmes or or even, yeah. Let's take Larry Holmes.
Ocean:Larry Holmes is a great example, and and Muhammad Ali might even be a better one. Right? Muhammad Ali wasn't bigger than a lot of the guys that he fought, but he did find ways to win. And so could you And that would
Jim:be a good story.
Ocean:Do you think you could create a story that is, in effect showing what it took for him to get himself to the places he had to get to in order to win.
Jim:Yeah. For something like that. Yeah. No. I could I could see a good story line built around around that kind of fight to fight adversity throughout a storied career like that.
Jim:Yeah. No, that's a good point. That that would actually be a pretty good pretty good movie. And I'm sure there there maybe there is something out there already, and I just hadn't watched it. But
Ocean:Maybe. But, yeah, I guess that's what I and I don't I'm trying to remember what the original question was. You had the goddess oh, the Creed movies. Yeah. Yeah.
Ocean:Yeah. The Creed movies. Yeah. So then I guess well, let let me turn all that back around for you. What do you think of the Creed movies?
Jim:I've only seen the first one and a portion of the second one just because I watched them on a flight. But I I enjoyed them. I've I've really liked it, and it actually made me want to go back and rewatch some of the rocky stuff, which, you know, inadvertently we're doing because of our podcast, which is great. But, yeah, I wanna I I would love to be able to have the the concentrated time of just sitting down and watching everything from Rocky to the creeds and just seeing how everything is tied back into each other as it refers to the creed and whatnot. And then just seeing how, the the the story just continues to to build up and just refreshing my my whole thoughts on all these movies.
Jim:But then, yeah, bringing in the whole creed thing is is great. I liked I liked I liked it, the first and the second one, for what I've seen.
Ocean:Man, Jim, it is always great to talk about movies with you. If you enjoy the show and are willing to support us, please become a supporting member at the next real dot com forward slash join. For only $5 a month, you will gain members only access to bonus show content for this and many other shows in the Next Real family of film podcasts. Wanna continue the conversation about this or any other sports movie? We invite you to join us on our Discord page, which is linked in the show notes.