Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
"Mining the hearts and minds of unorthodox teachers"
For the life-long learner who wants honest, human conversations about how we grow, heal, create, and understand ourselves. These are longform dialogues with artists, thinkers, authors, meditators, psychologists, musicians, creatives, leaders, philosophers, healers, and everyday people with something real to teach.
Each episode offers a perspective, story, or insight that tends to lands exactly when someone needs it most. Thoughtful, curious, and quietly life-changing, this show exists to help us live a better life by understanding our own inner world more deeply, through the perspectives of one another.
The Junkyard Love Podcast - for a better life.
00:00:15:18 - 00:00:30:09
Speaker 3
Want to start with. I was listening to you, I believe is one of your Ted talks. And, where I'd like to start, if it's okay with you. You said most of us carry unconscious vocal habits that interfere with us doing our best work. What do you mean by that?
00:00:30:11 - 00:00:58:20
Speaker 1
Well, I'll make a ridiculous example to start with. So it's the first words out of my mouth. Sounded like this. You know, you might have a different sense of who I might be. And if I was talking like this or like this. So those are extreme examples. However, most of us are using our kind of unconscious default voice that we think is us, but it's not.
00:00:58:22 - 00:01:35:18
Speaker 1
It's cobbled together with duct tape and popsicle sticks and trauma and habit. And something somebody said to us when we were five and just our story about who we are and it's the story is always too small. So I like to bring awareness and choice and how people express themselves because, you know, the only thing we have is anything that happens in the world happens because we talk about it a relationship, a business, a podcast, a book, family, anything.
00:01:35:20 - 00:01:39:12
Speaker 1
So, Nancy, what I mean by that?
00:01:39:14 - 00:01:54:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. Great. Brilliant. Okay. So how in which ways do I think you mentioned trauma as one of the things in which ways do our earlier experiences in life, let's say, especially maybe childhood, teenage years? How did that how does that shape our voice long term?
00:01:54:16 - 00:02:13:20
Speaker 1
Oh, so many ways. I go through a lot of tissue when I'm teaching in person. I imagine. Yeah, because you open up the voice and the truth comes out. So a lot of us get the truth in our gut. You know, we have this wisdom, this knowing. We have a whole nother brain in our guts. Now we know grandma knew that.
00:02:13:20 - 00:02:38:16
Speaker 1
The language tells us about gut instinct. But, And so the truth rises up. And then if you can't say what's so. And most of us can't, it gets stuck in our throat. And so there's, a cut there. And then there's also a just a cut culturally between the body and the head. The head is favored.
00:02:38:20 - 00:03:03:08
Speaker 1
The body is like second fiddle, although it's getting better. There's somatic therapies now, and there's like more embodiment practices than. And there have been, but still most of us walk around with our body being kind of a little stock to carry our brain around. And, so a lot of my clients have been the keepers of secrets in their family.
00:03:03:10 - 00:03:39:19
Speaker 1
A lot of them had somebody say some horrible thing to them. Sometimes it was like a music teacher when they were in third grade. I don't know where these people come from, and they should not be near our children. Like, you know, you can't sing, move your lips. And then there's just cultural pile on. You know what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a good person usually doesn't involve being primal, loud, hysterical, playful.
00:03:40:00 - 00:03:47:17
Speaker 1
It gets very narrow, our voices. And so we're all kind of wearing a and vocal girdle.
00:03:47:19 - 00:03:48:11
Speaker 3
Right?
00:03:48:13 - 00:03:49:13
Speaker 1
For lack of a better.
00:03:49:17 - 00:04:10:00
Speaker 3
And then so. And then. So you work with people like what are, what are some of the ways that you not only how you identify like where you can help people point out like, hey, you see how your voice is doing that, or you identify, I think you have your five different elements that you sort them into. So do you point those out to people and then what are your steps to kind of release those things to free up their voice?
00:04:10:02 - 00:04:35:07
Speaker 1
Well, we start big. We start beyond speaking and seeing it in sound because that that's us. That's like the dog park or your voice, you know, you just take it off the leash and swatted on the button, send it off to play. And so we start with sound, because that was what liberated me. I had a lot of I had a lot of good singing in my life as a young person.
00:04:35:08 - 00:04:58:18
Speaker 1
I was really great, grateful to be in good choirs. But I never wanted to just sing alone, ever in front of anyone, which is a common fear, except that my grandfather, my mother and my brother were all accomplished solo singers. And so that lovely question, what's wrong with me? Showed up because I would. I felt like I would die if I tried to do that.
00:04:58:20 - 00:05:21:20
Speaker 1
So I ended up going to a place workshop in Minneapolis in my late 20s, a long time ago. And when I walked in, I thought my voice ended here. And what was beyond that sound was nothing. No sound. And that was my story. That's the truth. I lived in. And in that first workshop I made sound all the way up here.
00:05:21:22 - 00:05:40:05
Speaker 1
I know if you can hear that, but it's almost to the top of the piano. And it wasn't singing anymore, and I wasn't me anymore. I was a character. Which is another thing I do with people is to pretend to be somebody else, because then you'll do something that quote unquote, you would never do. Only guess what that you do.
00:05:40:07 - 00:06:10:00
Speaker 1
So this, this distance that me, you know, blew that story apart. And set me on this path that I'm still traveling. So we start with sound. We pretend to be characters, and then I isolate and exaggerate each of the five elements to sort of give people a sense of what the full range of possibility. So the elements are Earth and that you you're an Earth guy.
00:06:10:02 - 00:06:43:15
Speaker 1
Not surprising. We'll come back to that Earth fire, water, metal and air twin sounds different. Each one is connected to a different part of the body, and each one is useful for certain things. And terrible for other things. So we generally go through the five elements, sort of assessing who's home, who's missing and what. Mostly what people are noticing, you know, in their body, mind, memory and imagination.
00:06:43:17 - 00:07:02:17
Speaker 3
So okay. And then in that moment, I was thinking about this as I was writing down some notes in that moment when they notice it, because I think, you know, when when we're singing in unison, for example, if we kind of become aware of just our own voice, you kind of have this instant reaction of like, maybe singing off key here I have this, you know, whatever.
00:07:02:23 - 00:07:12:16
Speaker 3
How do you get past that initial, that first big barrier? It's going to be a big wall, right? At first, when we first initially hear our voice, we want to like shut down and kind of get rid of it.
00:07:12:18 - 00:07:20:01
Speaker 1
You know, there are people who said, I've been working on getting to your studio for three years.
00:07:20:03 - 00:07:45:22
Speaker 1
I first heard about you. So I think a lot of the work happens before they, like, sign up for an online coaching session or a class or or something because it is crazy. Why do people come? Why do people do this? It is terrifying and I'm over my fear now. But I still really remember that, breathless terror that showed up.
00:07:46:02 - 00:08:15:06
Speaker 1
So I do think pretending to be somebody else is kind of secret sauce. You know, because the ego means. Well, right? It's like trying to protect us, but it's way too small. So it's just pretending for a minute to be drunk. Julia child, you, you know, or a pissed off cat or, little baby or something. It, it's playful.
00:08:15:08 - 00:08:31:24
Speaker 1
So I think making it fun, playful. And I usually occupy the most ridiculous place in the room so that everybody else can just relax a little bit more because, you know, I am a lunatic.
00:08:32:00 - 00:08:53:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, well, yeah. You give permission to to other people, you know, they they can open that door because they've seen you open it. It makes me think of, one of my favorite people in the world. He was my theater teacher in high school. I've actually had him on the podcast, luckily. And so he talked about the to his name is David Craig, and he would talk about he would always be the inspiration.
00:08:53:04 - 00:09:11:18
Speaker 3
His, his subtext of life was dare to be different. He would always wear costumes. He would always just try to be the one to kind of shake the the typical way we see the world. In, in on the podcast. That's what I was going to asking him, just kind of how he saw the world, how he interfaced with it.
00:09:11:18 - 00:09:37:24
Speaker 3
And he had a mentor that taught him. But essentially he was like, I noticed that there was this character as well of David Craig, and I could feed into it. I could be the character of David Craig, of Mr. Craig, the teacher, and that helped him kind of even step out of what he was naturally, or, you know, maybe any insecurities or whatever he may have, and play the character of this teacher that everybody thought was exuberant and playful and, and all of these things.
00:09:38:01 - 00:09:51:07
Speaker 3
And man, that has stuck with me since our conversation since he taught me in high school, for sure. But since our conversation, I think about that so often, playing the the character of this thing can really, break us out of who we typically have been.
00:09:51:09 - 00:10:11:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And the I was a theater kid also saved my life, actually. And, people were saying, what are you going to do, have a theater degree? And it's like, well, watch, you know, two books, three people out of the world, you know? And part of it is just learning to loosen the bonds of who I think I am.
00:10:11:13 - 00:10:37:20
Speaker 1
But part of what informed this work, the five elements framework was also the onion psychology and the idea of archetypes. You know, there are these, forms, you know, energy forms that are like the king, the warrior, the princess, the airhead, the fool. The high priestess, you know, all these characters. And I think our ancestors made really good use of them, right?
00:10:37:23 - 00:10:59:15
Speaker 1
They were always, like, invoking the unseen world. And we do that in this work as well. And it's powerful. I, I couldn't make the sounds I made. I was a bird at the time. Only now that bird is part of Barbara, right? I couldn't go back into the same state. Now I am bird, bird, bird bird bird bird.
00:10:59:20 - 00:11:24:23
Speaker 1
I was like, I'm sorry. I'll be one of those irritating people to name. Yeah. And so, I include, you know, that archetypal. It's I think it's a sacred invocation of the unseen. And I think they just want to help us. I think they're looking for jobs. You know, there's like, you got anything for me? Because there is this feeling.
00:11:25:00 - 00:11:53:16
Speaker 1
I think most artists have had this, you know, actors or writers or singers where you feel something rising up in you that is more than you. And oh my gosh, I live for that. Oh, yeah. So I do feel like the characters, you know, you can do these big archetypes, but I also think about real people. You know, I have, I often invoke Maya Angelou when I want to slow down.
00:11:53:16 - 00:12:22:11
Speaker 1
I'm 62. I'm a very tall person, and so is she. And when I want to slow down and inhabit my warm dignity and gravitas, I call in Maya Angelou and she takes me. Right. And so you have one, two in your in your theater teacher, you know, that, that boldness. And so whenever I'm presenting or teaching, I'm the high priestess and the holy fool that helps me know that I'm doing sacred work, but not to take it too seriously.
00:12:22:13 - 00:12:47:07
Speaker 1
And I think about Maya Angelou and my friend Margaret, who's the leadership author, world famous human being, who I did a lot of work with in over the years. And she has a very clear and deliberate way of speaking. And so she helps me be more clear. So I have my little hydrate with me when I, whenever I'm teaching or speaking.
00:12:47:07 - 00:12:50:01
Speaker 3
And yeah, the gang's all here.
00:12:50:01 - 00:12:53:02
Speaker 1
I think that's that's such elegance.
00:12:53:04 - 00:13:20:20
Speaker 3
As you, as you're just presenting them to me as you're kind of slipping through them. Obviously that is where we want to get where we have these different archetypes within us. And, and based off of the specific moment, we allow them to kind of take the reins, so to say, when we're learning, I'm always fascinated with, Tony Robbins talks about priming a lot, like he gets himself before he gets into one of his events or went to the on his business situation.
00:13:20:22 - 00:13:38:15
Speaker 3
He gets himself into the right state before he goes into it. Is this something that you teach, or is this was this part of your path where you would go, okay, I need to be like my aunt before I walk into here. I need to embody this person before I walk into this building. Was that part of your process at all?
00:13:38:17 - 00:13:42:22
Speaker 1
Well, I do feel like,
00:13:42:24 - 00:14:04:12
Speaker 1
I like to make great, big changes before I make small ones. So I wanted everybody in the pool first. Right? The guy I know, I wanted more of the game before I got to, I think a lot of times, especially culturally, we're always trying to get to the, the point. We're trying to, like, go fast and narrow and I want to open first.
00:14:04:14 - 00:14:36:04
Speaker 1
So that feels like liberation to get out of the the voice box that we've all been living in and so, I want to I have my, my students do a lot of that warming up with the five elements, exploring them. It's kind of like a yoga practice only for your voice. It's like the full range of motion with awareness, and just get used to inhabiting all of these different sounds in a big and small way.
00:14:36:06 - 00:14:58:09
Speaker 1
And usually the voice, unless it's been hurt in some way and damaged physically, the voice is usually much more ready to go than the psyche. Like, the voice is like, even if it's been, you know, deep trauma. I've worked with people who've been through awful things, but usually the voice is just like, yes, let's go, you know?
00:14:58:11 - 00:15:20:07
Speaker 1
But the psyche is like, no, wait, I'm an introvert. Or in my case, I hated what I, you know, what I call the air voice? This high, soft, sweet voice. It's like, oh, for God's sake, I'm from Minnesota. I'm tall and smart. You know, I could never get away with the level high. I'm like, this is like, it grossed me out.
00:15:20:11 - 00:15:45:14
Speaker 1
And like most people, the parts of my voice I hate the most or I feel most uncomfortable with have the greatest gifts for me because it represents a part of us that's in exile somehow. And so for me, I didn't think that air voice belonged to me, partly because of social norms. I was like I couldn't fit the social norm, but deeper.
00:15:45:16 - 00:16:12:22
Speaker 1
I, like everyone, rushed out of childhood really quickly. I had to grow up really fast. And this is how we sound when we when we're little. So I had when I opened up all that voice, there was just so many tears, so much healing of Hobart Brown. Yeah. Barbie who didn't feel like she could, you know, be first of all, the sweet self.
00:16:12:24 - 00:16:35:16
Speaker 1
And now when that voice came back over time, it brought a lot of gifts like, a a lightness. You know, I used to hang out down here because being a fake boy was a good thing in my family. My dad didn't like women very much. And we're good. He died all this. Well, we we got we got to a good place before he died.
00:16:35:18 - 00:16:58:19
Speaker 1
Okay? But he was kind of an ass then. And sarcastic. And so I just kind of, Because the only girl, you know, in the family, I was like, I'm going to be a sick boy. Strategy and so when this came back, all of this lightness came back. I changed the way I work, changed the way I dress.
00:16:58:21 - 00:17:09:06
Speaker 1
Change where I speak and sing. But mostly it just, like, popped open a different kind of spiritual connection to the sacred feminine.
00:17:09:08 - 00:17:29:21
Speaker 3
Wow. Brilliant. Okay. Yeah, I really like I feel like you're painting the picture of, you know, this, you know, let's just say probably our ego kind of being like a cork in some ways of, of, like just all these different versions of our fluency that could, that could be coming out. Makes me think of, Alan Watts.
00:17:29:21 - 00:17:48:07
Speaker 3
I think it was. Who said the ego is, a great servant, but a terrible master exam. And, so it seems to be I do love of art and talking about identity on this podcast, how does our identity, our ego, who we think ourselves to be now, how does that get in the way of our true voice expressing.
00:17:48:09 - 00:18:13:11
Speaker 1
And every way. And, you know, I used to hate the ego. I used to get all up in my, you know, grumpiness about the ego. It's like I'm such a pain, you know, it's always interfering with my freedom. And now I'm just like, oh, honey, thank you. Right. It's like it is like I think of it as like a, a pet, like a dog who doesn't know the difference between the postal carrier and an intruder.
00:18:13:14 - 00:18:43:17
Speaker 1
And it means, well, it wants to protect me and it does, it keeps me anchored in a story and bless its heart, it's got a function and like a dog, it can be trained. It's like, honey, I'm going to leave who you think Barbara is right now. But I'll be back, so sit. Stay. And so actually, one of the songs I wrote, this is called Brain Read, because I'm going to sing you a little bit of it.
00:18:43:17 - 00:19:05:24
Speaker 1
It goes like this. And it's just about la la la la la la la. That's going to happen no matter what. Whenever we step outside of who we think we are. So here's that, here's the chorus, and I'll send you the link to the YouTube video, because I brain rats, I've got brain rats, pestilential blight upon my mind.
00:19:06:01 - 00:19:40:00
Speaker 1
All brain rats are those wicked thoughts that prove my every thought, and every hopeful notion. Gives them something new to know. I hear them chewing in the night and on and off all day. They've really got my number. All the awful stuff they say. And then off we go to. They're just other verses. But I feel like the brain rats are the ego trying to protect us, and the stretch outside of that container needs to be gradual, like yoga.
00:19:40:00 - 00:19:54:16
Speaker 1
You know, you stretch outside and say, okay, I'm going to be a little less introverted or a little more a little lighter, but, you know, do it all at once. Most people, it's in negotiations, like, okay, we're going to go out and I'm like, okay, now we have to come back in a little bit. How can I go out a little bit?
00:19:54:18 - 00:19:59:05
Speaker 1
Oh that's it, that's okay. We'll come coming back in again.
00:19:59:07 - 00:20:08:23
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah. In yoga is defined it's it's a yoke union. Union with self.
00:20:09:00 - 00:20:32:17
Speaker 3
How do we you know as people are going through this I'm sure they come up with things that they need to, you know, keep accept but also get rid of how do you, how do you kind of divvy that up, you know, and I just it matters some of these conversations that you have with people as they're firing up their voice can probably be incredibly overwhelming.
00:20:32:17 - 00:20:55:02
Speaker 3
You know, suddenly they're they're like, oh, I just want to do this thing. And I need to process. It's like pretty, pretty heavy, heavy thing, you know? I don't know, I guess, what does that seem to look like? What what have you experienced in that, in that realm? Like, as people are, you know, uncovering things that maybe they didn't plan on uncovering and then trying to figure out what to get rid of and what what also unify?
00:20:55:04 - 00:21:19:06
Speaker 1
Well, yeah. I only take people where they want to go, but I, I've gotten more accurate about sending, you know, sending that little bleep bleep bleep out into the world. Usually people who are finding me are interested in transformation, however I have. I mean, I was in an organizational development consulting for 12 years. So I was in the world of business.
00:21:19:06 - 00:21:48:08
Speaker 1
No training in that whatsoever, but very useful in working with lots of leaders, teams, people in the workplace. And so and I'm from Minnesota, so it has to be practical. So this work can be really strategic and practical to say, okay, if you're a leader and you have to give a speech, you probably are going to need to use your fired voice.
00:21:48:10 - 00:22:09:18
Speaker 1
I did a video, when, I did some work with a guy who did a video who was talking about being really passionate about his work then, you know, and he was horrified. He was passionate, but he was an introverted white guy from North Dakota. So his idea of passion was like he was having a party inside.
00:22:09:18 - 00:22:31:17
Speaker 1
But you know, we can't. Yeah, he's a leader, but he looks like he's in a coma. And so, we worked with him to help add fire to what he how he was speaking in that situation, and also when he was doing presentations and he had it, he found it. We just needed to sort of. And it's always like, tricky with introverts.
00:22:31:17 - 00:22:55:18
Speaker 1
I'm right in the middle. So I'm a lot of both. It's always going to feel like a second language, you know, full expression to introverts. But hey, there's a lot of people living really well in second and third languages. So, you know, it can be very practical about, you know, how you talk in a presentation versus if you have really bad news to deliver.
00:22:55:20 - 00:23:21:04
Speaker 1
You know, I'm so sorry. We have to let you go. It feels very different in the water voice then I'm really sorry. We have to let you go. Right. So it can be very pragmatic and strategic if people want to enter that way. But here's the thing is, no matter where they enter, the rest of it's waiting for them because you can't change your voice without having your life come along for the ride.
00:23:21:10 - 00:23:38:11
Speaker 1
So wherever people enter, it can be around speaking or singing or just feeling like they want to be more free, freely expressed in their life. Wherever they enter, pragmatic or transformational. It's all sitting right there.
00:23:38:13 - 00:23:51:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, we're waiting to unpack. Okay. Tell me more about your initial beginning on this journey. I think I heard I think you mentioned that you had a mentor that inspired you down, down this path. What did that look like?
00:23:51:17 - 00:24:12:16
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. The guy who took me on that that first journey. His name is Cheryl Ryan. He's a teacher with the Roy Art center in the south of France. He's a British guy with a Hebrew name who lives in France. But he was my teacher. He was so. I was so scared that first weekend. And he was.
00:24:12:18 - 00:24:43:14
Speaker 1
He's this kind, calm, playful, gentle man. And, I felt safe enough to try things in his presence. And then, he directed me. I fell in love with this work instantly. And I got a grant and went to the south of France and studied with a couple of other teachers that he recommended, and then also followed this other person, Richard Armstrong, who was the teacher, more of a singer, teacher.
00:24:43:14 - 00:25:05:23
Speaker 1
You know, Richard's more of a singer. Sal is more of an actor. And so I worked with Richard both in France and in Canada. And then years went by. I kept working with Sal and his partner Carol, when they would come to the Twin Cities and then I don't even remember, when, but he reached out and said, hey, I'm coming, would you like to teach together?
00:25:06:00 - 00:25:27:06
Speaker 1
And I was like, nah, ni. So I guess I was worthless the first year because I was so freaked out. It's like, come on. You got any time? Yeah. I was like, oh my God, oh my god. And then, then I got over it and we taught together for over 20 years, covered, workshops.
00:25:27:06 - 00:25:49:24
Speaker 1
And then just last year he said, I'm 80. I'm not going to make the trip now. Yeah. And so the joy of it is that my nephew, Travis, who lives in Atlanta, has been studying with Sal and me for many, many years, and he's trained in my work. I've trained about 75 people in to be trainers or coaches in this approach.
00:25:50:01 - 00:26:00:05
Speaker 1
And he, he and I are now teaching together. We did our first one last fall, and we have another one in a couple of weeks.
00:26:00:07 - 00:26:20:19
Speaker 1
And, you know, we're innovating because we're the next generation. So taking what we've learned. And then he's done a lot of circle singing, vocal improv. He's an amazing singer and teacher. He's a better teacher than I'll be. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, yeah, that's that's what's supposed to have beautiful.
00:26:20:19 - 00:26:22:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, that's what I like.
00:26:22:00 - 00:26:25:03
Speaker 1
I just have somebody in my family like.
00:26:25:05 - 00:26:33:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, that must be fantastic to say the least. What, what are you learning from your nephew? What has he taught you? What have you learned from him?
00:26:33:24 - 00:27:05:02
Speaker 1
Well, he has studied with, Rhiannon, who does a lot of vocal improvization. Also an amazing jazz improviser. Toured with Bobby McFerrin for years. And, so he studied with her. So he's brought, a bunch of, like, vocal games, which I think is really a blast. And so that's kind of the stuff that he brings. He invents them and brings that.
00:27:05:04 - 00:27:33:03
Speaker 1
And what's interesting is, this is not exactly in the heart of the work, but I, used to being in the supporting roles for shell. And when Travis and I did our first weekend, the weekend before, I fell down the stairs that are right behind me, and I broke my my right wrist out right there and so he showed up.
00:27:33:08 - 00:27:57:14
Speaker 1
He was going to come on Thursday. He came on Monday, I fell on Saturday. He was in my house Monday morning and stepped in and took care of his auntie. And I'm used to being the assistant teacher for Sal, and I'm used to being the caregiver because I took care of my sweet mama for about 15 years. And so it was suddenly this like, oh wow, here I am.
00:27:57:16 - 00:28:08:05
Speaker 1
I'm now the lead teacher and I have a broken wing and I, I let them take care of me. Well, yeah, he's he's amazing.
00:28:08:07 - 00:28:12:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. That must be a, spiritual experience, to say the least.
00:28:12:05 - 00:28:26:06
Speaker 1
And then we while he was here, it was the longest time we'd had just the two of us. We had a whole week in my little house here. And while he was here, we worked, Jacob Collier's amazing song, Little Blue. Are you familiar with it?
00:28:26:09 - 00:28:28:11
Speaker 3
I'm familiar with Jacob Collier. I can't remember them, like.
00:28:28:11 - 00:28:54:08
Speaker 1
God, his little blue son. So we borrowed a guitar from. I play the piano. I don't understand guitar, but we borrowed a guitar from my friend Jason, another Jason, and worked that song up and sang it for the group and also at my little Unitarian fellowship. And we would we were practicing it. We'd just look at each other and just go, the person disappears because it is who we are to each other.
00:28:54:10 - 00:29:15:21
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wow. Okay. Incredible. And so beautiful. All right, well, let's speak on the, So I'm I'm a bit of a musician. I came through it. It came through it, through a love of music. Started as a DJ more than anything. And then, of course, have expanded into, more on the electronic side of things, more on the making side of things.
00:29:16:02 - 00:29:44:08
Speaker 3
Writing is my favorite thing out of all of it, but I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by incredible, talented musicians. Like some of the most insane guitar players are good friends of mine. I'm just feel so lucky. But I've been in these moments where, you know, there's band practice at my place, and I'm watching these, like, just unifying moments of just words being spoken without words and just the prediction, just the jazz of jamming, you know?
00:29:44:10 - 00:30:07:01
Speaker 3
I'm sure you've been, a part of these in so many various different ways. Whether it's you leading like on your Ted talks for example, you led the crowd in, in singing, everybody in unison in those sort of, you know, again, unifying experiences. What is that, do you think I mean, compared to impossible question.
00:30:07:01 - 00:30:29:05
Speaker 1
But no, it it makes me I did that whole second Ted talk, by the way, there was about a thousand people in that room, and I got them. I did an experiment and I didn't have a plan B if they didn't do it, I had them all. I've got them all started singing and then I, I abdicated leadership and they all decided when it was over and they did it.
00:30:29:07 - 00:30:54:10
Speaker 1
And I'd never like the most had ever done it with it's 300 people and that was triple that at least. So but I did that fricking Ted talk because I can't get over what can happen in a group of people. Yeah, and singing is the primary way that I be doing it. I was song leader. I have been for years and years and all that singing resistance stuff that's been happening in the Twin Cities.
00:30:54:12 - 00:31:20:01
Speaker 1
I planted all those seeds for that community over decades of community song leading in that place, and now, you know, there's thousands of people who show up and, like, sing and march in the streets. And and now it's the worldwide movement. So what the hell? We never know what we're doing. But I started when I was singing solo back in my 20s.
00:31:20:01 - 00:31:51:15
Speaker 1
I started as a jazz singer and there is such magic in that. And the closest thing I can think of is it's like the mycelial connections between trees. I love that, right. And human beings have it because otherwise, why would a thousand people stop a song all at the same damn time? And why would it happen over and over and over again in groups of 30, 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 300 people?
00:31:51:15 - 00:32:17:02
Speaker 1
It's like it happens all the time when I'm leading in this way. And it has to be without paper, because I think the paper makes us more certain, like we're not. I actually wrote a little song called Listen with Your Skin. It's a little community layer. Song is a good name. Yeah. In five, four time, of course, because, you know, it had to be groovy.
00:32:17:04 - 00:32:48:03
Speaker 1
But that is what I think happens when we're in that place. You know, I lead, I get it started, and then I abdicate. And then people say like, okay, it's up to us now. And I think that kind of singing, lights up the mind. The thing that's already there all the time, the mycelial connections between us. And, you know, I did a lot of teambuilding when I was a consultant all those years, and it was like, I, I could have just had them singing together.
00:32:48:03 - 00:33:17:05
Speaker 1
And I used to, I used to get them singing round, as a way to experience being an individual as part of a group, as part of a larger whole, because that's where it around is. You singing a part with a little group, and then everybody starts at different times and it makes a whole. And it's a perfect metaphor for how complicated and rewarding it is to be part of a group of people doing something in the world.
00:33:17:07 - 00:33:21:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, emphasis on both complicating and rewarding. I that's.
00:33:21:08 - 00:33:21:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's.
00:33:21:16 - 00:33:42:00
Speaker 3
Said. Okay, I have to share the story. I it's happened a few times in my, in my, you know, DJ career. More recently within the last year, I essentially was doing, a DJ set at my friend's private place. You did mention mycelial. I will just be honest with you. There was a little bit of mushrooms involved.
00:33:42:00 - 00:34:05:19
Speaker 3
Some magic mushrooms were involved, but, we everyone was basically can say 30 to 40 people, basically on a small dose of mushrooms and, that time almost more than ever of my, like, 14 years of deejaying, the, the crowd, the people there, they were a lot of like it was like meditation teachers and Reiki healers and very like spiritual people.
00:34:05:21 - 00:34:26:16
Speaker 3
They were choosing the songs through me. I it was this most out-of-body experience. I had some kind of mapped out where I want to play this song. I have this playlist. I had kind of like a little bit of a few hundred kind of gathered that I wanted to, to play with song wise. But by the end of it, I mean, I mean, for at least probably 45 minutes, they were choosing the songs.
00:34:26:18 - 00:34:43:13
Speaker 3
It was this unifying experience. We actually led up into, I play a lot of electronic music. I was a lot of ecstatic dancing, a lot of very, some goofy stuff, some beautiful stuff. And by the end of it, it's almost like headbanging, like heavy stuff. And I didn't plan to go there at all, but, elevated us up.
00:34:43:13 - 00:35:08:05
Speaker 3
We're all dancing, everyone's dancing. I played this song. Funny enough, the lyrics were, like, I can give you what you want, what you need. And that was that song. And then I just felt intuitively that was the peak. And I was like, that was it. We've arrived. And I just slowly faded the music down. And I got on the mic and I was like, hey guys, welcome back to Earth.
00:35:08:07 - 00:35:25:01
Speaker 3
And then everyone just was holding their head and like, laughing hysterically. And everyone's like, where did we just go? And my friend's mom, who was inside, like, she was kind of coming out and dancing a little bit, but she was like, you guys just went on such an adventure. But anyway, you know, those unifying experiences, there's really.
00:35:25:03 - 00:35:46:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, it has its silliness to. It has. It's like, you know, oh, is fun. We're all dancing. We had a little bit of mushrooms, but it was this very profound, beautiful opening to these unifying experiences. We even before I even started playing, we all did a guided meditation together. We set our intentions for what we want to kind of experience that evening.
00:35:46:14 - 00:36:02:19
Speaker 3
It was just this wonderfully beautiful thing. I'm sure we've had so many traditions in the past who have had similar situations with chanting and mantras and in these sorts of things, but, yeah, I just, I wanted to share that with you. I couldn't resist, I thought that you would. You would think that it's pretty cool.
00:36:02:19 - 00:36:10:19
Speaker 3
I'm sure you've had pretty similar experiences where you, as the leader, were kind of being, you know, pushed in the corners by the crowd. Yeah.
00:36:10:21 - 00:36:33:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, I have so many thoughts right now. There's the cleanse. Yeah, I had one. Is that, strangely, you know, I'm an answer. I train people to, to carry my work. You know, to either just present the Five elements framework and take people through an experience and then a deeper training around how do you like, use it in a coaching way over, you know, time.
00:36:33:22 - 00:37:00:05
Speaker 1
There are a, a number of people who are psychedelic facilitators who are showing up to learn my work because singing is such a part of a lot of those traditions. And it was like, well, did you see that coming? Sure. Why not? I often I know that songs are alive. They are another form where just vibrating stuff and so are they.
00:37:00:07 - 00:37:04:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I have had the.
00:37:05:01 - 00:37:25:23
Speaker 1
Over and over again a song will come and whisper in my ear. And I'll be teaching or I'll be leading and a song or something is like, what do you do in here? And then I'll, I trust it, you know, I want to be a good I feel like I want to be trustworthy to magic, you know, that magic will find me, I will respond.
00:37:25:23 - 00:38:03:09
Speaker 1
So I just, honoring the luminous whenever possible. And so I'll start singing the song and somebody will burst into tears and say, oh, that was my mom's favorite song. And she just, you know, it's just like, what? And so I do feel like becoming more, awake to the all the living, all the living that the invisible, the unseen world, the songs, the characters, the energies that want to move and in the world.
00:38:03:09 - 00:38:29:04
Speaker 1
And it's quite incredible to see what can happen. Yeah. And now I still I'm back to jazz. I left it for a long time. When I was singing it, I was so nervous I couldn't sing it at all. I did a little bit, but now I'm like, woo! So in my little town of 2000 people, the bottom of the hill where I live, there's the historic auditorium is Vaudeville Auditorium, built in 1916.
00:38:29:04 - 00:38:59:20
Speaker 1
That just got beautifully refurbished by a couple local guys. And my dear friend when Marissa died in my town of 2000 people. Brilliant songwriter, great pianist, singer, soul sister. A lot of times on Friday night, like tonight, I'll be going down and she's going to be singing with a friend of hers is a blues singer. A lot of times she's playing with her friend Dan, who's a guitarist, and I'll just go down there, hang out with my friends in the little lounge and sit in and sing all these songs.
00:38:59:20 - 00:39:23:00
Speaker 1
I used to sing when I was in my 20s, you know, 40 years ago, and now I can sing them and that improvization there's nothing better, you know, than you've got a structure, you know, to hang on to. My first piano player said, don't listen to the piano. I will screw you n listen to the bass and you'll always know where you are.
00:39:23:00 - 00:39:44:05
Speaker 1
And I thought, well, that's good advice for life. All right. What's the baseline? What's the fundamental values that are guiding my story. That's what I'm going to listen to. And then I'm improvising over that. I haven't had a W-2 since 1991, so I've been making it up for a really long time.
00:39:44:07 - 00:39:46:05
Speaker 3
That's great. You're improvising.
00:39:46:07 - 00:39:48:23
Speaker 1
Improvising? Big improvization.
00:39:49:00 - 00:40:06:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. All right, let's get a maybe a little more sticky for people who are listening. Is there anything that you could suggest anybody listening right now? Like, what could they start with? Is there some some humming, some vocal techniques, some, things they could start there every day morning with, what do you got to offer anyone listening?
00:40:06:23 - 00:40:12:19
Speaker 1
Well, let's see.
00:40:12:21 - 00:40:45:16
Speaker 1
I'm trying, I'm debating. I think I'm going to suggest that they play with sound through laughing the five elements. If I have to introduce the Five Elements framework quickly, I can do it. Laughing. Oh, so you can laugh like a big hairy oaf. Oh, and now to get your chest opened up. Ha ha ha ha ha. We all know somebody last like this, you know, slightly obnoxious.
00:40:45:18 - 00:41:21:03
Speaker 1
Oh. And then the water that was fire. Now. Whoa! Oh! Dunk! Julia Child, went for metal. Oh, baby. For air. So laughing is a great way to just open up the different sounds. I also just feel like, if people are wanting to do something less ridiculous, you can voice your yawns when appropriate. Humor. Oh, whenever I get people in the earth voice, they're like, yawning perpetually.
00:41:21:03 - 00:41:55:14
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. So that's a way to sort of, open that channel between the the, chest, the body and the head. And a really easy access point is reading children's books out loud, even if you're not reading for any children, because basically, like, if takes like The Wizard of Oz, You've got Fire was king first, you've got Earth and then no attention to that man behind the curtain fire.
00:41:55:16 - 00:42:23:06
Speaker 1
Somewhere over the rainbow. Dorothy, at least in the movie, was water, the witch's metal and Glinda the good witches. Er. And you can do that with so many stories, so much mythology. Winnie the Pooh. Lord of the rings. Yeah. So. But children's books often take us into a speaking. Yeah, more, more variety in how we speak.
00:42:23:08 - 00:42:42:04
Speaker 3
That's that's such a great idea. And I love the I love just going through the different tears of laughter. I think I'm going to try that. I'm trying to I'm going to try to do that in the mornings just to wake myself up to the different you know, versions wanting to come out. I've also been listening to, I'm a pretty big Harry Potter fan.
00:42:42:04 - 00:42:47:15
Speaker 3
I really love the books. And, Jim Dale reads the audiobooks on audible and.
00:42:47:15 - 00:42:47:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:42:47:24 - 00:42:55:02
Speaker 3
Oh, man, he's so good. He's he's such a great voice actor, I really do. I feel like he hits all of those throughout the whole time. Very well.
00:42:55:04 - 00:43:22:19
Speaker 1
Whenever there's. I mean, these are just human qualities, being grounded, passionate, caring, incisive and clear and inspirational. And, I interviewed an old friend and student of mine who has been carrying the work, to international audiences. He, he teaches teachers at international schools. And so people from all over the world would be in the room.
00:43:22:19 - 00:43:47:17
Speaker 1
And he will present the five elements to them. Because as teachers, you need to be able to read the room, modulate, you know, be more conscious of your voice because it's one of the primary things you have. And I said, did you ever encounter any cultural like nose? And he was like, I know, I know, I never did.
00:43:47:19 - 00:44:08:20
Speaker 1
So yeah, I mean, there have been exceptions. When I was talking about ear, I was in Cincinnati, Ohio, actually, I'm headed back there again to do some work with a friend. But, I was saying, oh, this is how we talk to babies, you know, and this large African American woman. Raise your hand. I said, does this make sense?
00:44:08:24 - 00:44:29:10
Speaker 1
And she's like, well, in my community, we don't talk to children like that. We use fire. I was like, well, give me some of them. It's like, hey, come on over here, give me some sugar, you know? And I was like, yeah, that was so great. So there have been a few exceptions over the years, but by and large, these are just ways we have being human.
00:44:29:10 - 00:44:39:07
Speaker 1
And we often change our voice unconsciously. I mean, I hope we talk to our pets differently than we talk to our boss or a scary stranger.
00:44:39:09 - 00:44:45:23
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah. I can't help it if I see a dog. There's a dog voice coming out. There's a version of me who really loves dogs.
00:44:45:23 - 00:44:49:22
Speaker 1
And I wouldn't talk to him like that. And right at the top. Yeah, yeah.
00:44:49:24 - 00:45:02:23
Speaker 3
And then I have to. It's funny, I just met one of my neighbors, and they have this little tiny dog, and I was meeting him. You know, he's another grown man. I'm like, hey, how you doing? I'm Jacob, you know, I'm shaking his hand. And then he has this little cute dog and I mean, he joins. Hi, how are you then I oh, yeah.
00:45:03:00 - 00:45:05:00
Speaker 3
Stand up talking to you again.
00:45:05:02 - 00:45:05:14
Speaker 1
Oh.
00:45:05:16 - 00:45:08:03
Speaker 3
I mentioned.
00:45:08:05 - 00:45:32:10
Speaker 1
This five. Yeah. When I'm preaching. I was at a corporate event, in Atlanta last year, and I was teaching this to a bunch of leaders. And I love giving this to leaders, and I, you know, some of my students have been teaching people in leadership programs at universities, and I would love to get this in every one of those, because, I mean, everybody deserves to have a voice.
00:45:32:12 - 00:45:53:07
Speaker 1
And leaders voices have a bigger impact in the world because they're leaders. And when it's going well, it's going it's much better. It's amplified. And when things are not going well, it's also amplified. But I can't I mean, I was teaching the air voice. I said, okay, I'm going to count to five, and I want you to talk to your pets or your young ones in your life.
00:45:53:09 - 00:46:02:20
Speaker 1
So I kind of three in the whole room, which is like, oh, they talk about, we about. And then everybody laughed, you know, it's like it's universal.
00:46:02:22 - 00:46:26:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't help it. Okay. You you mentioned a term in a podcast. I was listening to you that I would like to explore more of code switching our voice, based off of, like, who were interacting with, in different environments. We all have it a bit naturally, but can you expand more and maybe even maybe give your explanation or definition of what code switching means for someone who's never heard that before?
00:46:26:17 - 00:46:58:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I learned it from my friends. Who are I learned it from African American friends. It's a term that I've heard them use just to say that when I'm talking to my friends who are black, I sound different than when I'm talking to white people and or others. So, I pay attention to those kinds of stuff in my own world, but also in the worlds of my students.
00:46:58:15 - 00:47:32:11
Speaker 1
So I didn't originate that. But I feel like it it can import into how we're all code switching. We're all shifting, depending on who we're talking to. But then there's also a lot of unconscious things we're doing with our voices that are spilling all kinds of information about us. So, we're revealing our level of education. Maybe our gender, maybe our class, our mood, our level of health.
00:47:32:11 - 00:47:55:03
Speaker 1
You know, I, I can always tell by my favorite NPR people have a cold podcast to, you know, they have that kind of stuffy sound. And the people we know, well, we can hear, you know, and I was taking care of my sweet mama. I could tell by the low of hello. And she answered the phone if it was a good day or a bad day.
00:47:55:05 - 00:48:20:05
Speaker 1
And revive. I'm sure I'll have that experience where we call someone we know well, and they answer the phone and we say what's wrong. You know, can hear it in the phone. So some of it is we're, we're constantly shifting, unconscious, unconsciously. And I think of code switching as being something that's more purposeful. Yeah.
00:48:20:07 - 00:48:37:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. And would you, I don't want to put words in your mouth by phrasing it like this, but would you? You wouldn't consider it a bad thing, though. It's just something we kind of all do to to some degree. We're not trying to, like, put on some sort of false mask. We're trying to. Because I feel like when, when I catch myself doing it, excuse me, trying to connect with someone in a different way.
00:48:37:23 - 00:48:58:07
Speaker 3
It's just me trying to maybe, like me meet where maybe I, at least in that moment, perceive that they're, Trying to just lessen the chances of miscommunication, basically trying to get right to the point in, in speak their language. I it's for me, it feels I'm coming from a good place, but I'm not sure if it's always perceived that way.
00:48:58:09 - 00:49:21:11
Speaker 1
Well, you know, you can use anything for good or ill, you know, Hitler had a great fire voice. Right? Right. So I think one of the things that I do hear from people is like, well, this just doesn't feel authentic to me. Like my inner voice did not feel authentic at all. Felt like putting the cat in the bathtub.
00:49:21:12 - 00:49:52:12
Speaker 1
It's like, oh, I hate that. So to me, being able to shift is a good thing because we're communicating across so many differences, you know, generations, cultures, class, I mean, all kinds of things. And so, one of my mentors, Peter Block, who's that leadership author, wrote really beautiful books about community, as well as leadership.
00:49:52:12 - 00:50:19:05
Speaker 1
And he says nothing happens in this world until we can until we can act. Nothing can happen between people. And so what I like to teach is, is to have a big enough sense of who you are as a person and as a voice, that if fire is like, you know, making people kind of back off and they're like, that's a that you can, you know, if you're reading the room, you can kind of tell was like, oh, they're backing away from me.
00:50:19:07 - 00:50:38:16
Speaker 1
You might be able to switch to water and talk in a way that is, you know, you're looking for the connection, right? Yeah. And for a lot of women, water is like how we're supposed to be. We're here to take care of everyone all the time and not be a bitch and not be an asshole. And, you know, have to be nice.
00:50:38:16 - 00:51:09:21
Speaker 1
And it's like, oh, God. So a lot of powerful women have said, I can't afford to be in that voice ever. And it's like, well, you might not be able to be in that voice at work, but you definitely need to have your heart with you. And the water is the voice of the heart. So if you can get a big enough sense of who you are, you can come from all these different places and still feel like yourself.
00:51:09:23 - 00:51:37:18
Speaker 3
Yeah I love that. There's some great points. I, I love the way you said that. I'm reminded of kind of my different variations at work even myself when I was younger I worked at like clothing shops escape shops, you know, and the way I speak not only my language, but even my vocal tonality is going to be different when it's, you know, a 16 year old kid who's coming with, like, $5 to get a new piece of grip tape on his skateboard versus his grandma comes with him, you know what I mean?
00:51:37:20 - 00:51:56:00
Speaker 3
So I'm just I'm going to speak to them a little bit differently to try to, to to meet with them. But the the end goal is to connect, you know, but I find I find it I wonder what you think about this. I, I hate to make generalizations of, like, a whole generation, but I do find a lot more younger people just say.
00:51:56:00 - 00:52:11:10
Speaker 3
They say less, they they speak less. I notice it. And, because I grew up working in clothing stores, when I walk into clothing stores, I've always I want to be greeted. I want, I want them to say hello. I don't really care about exactly what they're saying. Hey, let me know if I can help you with thing.
00:52:11:10 - 00:52:32:08
Speaker 3
Hey, we have a special going on. Whatever it is, I find more and more. They just don't speak much at all. Have you noticed that? And, if there is anybody listening who. Maybe that is their default state. Would you have any advice for them? Maybe they're afraid to speak. Maybe they're afraid of. Of what exactly they're saying.
00:52:32:10 - 00:52:36:19
Speaker 3
I don't know. Does anything come to mind when I. When I mention that?
00:52:36:21 - 00:53:02:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. What? I, I haven't noticed that necessarily, but I have noticed the vocal fry, you know, there's a lot of younger people who I like talking, you know, with a vocal fry, which drives me nuts because it's basically anorexic. It's an anorexic tone. It's like you're starving your vocal cords for the air. They need to function as they were designed.
00:53:03:00 - 00:53:19:12
Speaker 1
And then you're also not breathing as much, so you're dumber. You know what I mean? You're not. You're not spending air. You're not taking it in. You're not giving it out. So it's this kind of frozen, fry thing.
00:53:19:14 - 00:53:50:20
Speaker 1
What I have noticed is the appetite for singing among the younger generation. I mean, so many of the people who are out in the streets of Minneapolis. Yeah, they're a bunch of boomers and Gen Xers, too. But a lot of the leaders in that are in their 30s and 40s, and there's a whole movement. I know there's people, I think, in Austin who do this kind of singing, where it's oral tradition, no music, no performance.
00:53:50:20 - 00:54:24:15
Speaker 1
It's just singing in the old way. And, there's certainly a lot going on now with this whole singing resistance movement. There's pods popping up everywhere, and a lot of the people who are showing up at these singing camps where a lot of this started are younger and they're writing amazing songs. And so what's interesting is it feels like there's a bifurcation, there's like the people who only communicate through text and gaming and sort of being silent.
00:54:24:17 - 00:54:50:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, at meetings, through portals, technology portals. And then there's a whole subculture that's probably a lot of the people that were at your dance, your rave, you know, who are looking for these more organic, ancient ways of being together with dance. Ecstatic. There's a great book, actually. It talks about this. I want to get it in the get it in.
00:54:50:07 - 00:55:12:13
Speaker 1
I thought of it earlier when you were talking about anything, that you did. It's called dancing in the streets A History of Collective Ecstasy by Barbara Ehrenreich. And it's not a new book, but I think about it a lot. I referenced it in both of my books because I think we used to do this all the time.
00:55:12:15 - 00:55:41:08
Speaker 1
We need it. We need a break from the ego. We're not supposed to be alone in here. It's bad for us, right? Yeah. Don't leave me alone with this woman, you know? And so her, her whole hypothesis. And she she built it all up is that for most of human history, we had regular opportunities to lose ourselves, usually through some sort of chemical alteration.
00:55:41:10 - 00:56:08:11
Speaker 1
Special food, dance, music, trance. And we did it all the time. And so we're wired that way. And just usually with that, she tracks that back to the rise of the Catholic Church, when those festivals kind of were suppressed. Then the word melancholy, melancholy us shows up and we start getting depressed because we're not supposed to be alone.
00:56:08:11 - 00:56:37:12
Speaker 1
And that just helps me so much. It's not it's not just like, go to therapy because you're lonely. It's like, no, actually, you're just a human being who's not getting like fundamental experiences that human beings need to get a break from their ego. And so I'm really celebrating the rise of these kinds of events that you talked about and transcendence, ecstatic dance, singing camp, just opportunities.
00:56:37:12 - 00:57:03:24
Speaker 1
You can't deny that you're connected to other human beings when you're in a group of 75 people and they all start singing at the same moment. Yeah. You cannot. Mine's like you're way out of that, right? Right. That happened and it happened. We all shared it. We felt it in our bodies. It's undeniable that we are deeply connected to each other.
00:57:04:01 - 00:57:13:05
Speaker 1
So I think people are I think the human spirit is always looking for that. Where is that community?
00:57:13:07 - 00:57:32:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, I agree, and I think we should all lean into lean into finding something that makes sense to us. I've even done it's been a few years now that I think of it, but, I've even done I would go to like, a, you know, just a nightly guided meditation where some guy would, would talk for a little while and then he'd kind of talk about meditation, and then we'd ask questions and those sorts of things.
00:57:32:24 - 00:57:49:13
Speaker 3
They would always start with chanting, I forget exactly what chant they did. I don't think it was like the Hari Krishna, but it was, just some sort of Buddhist related chant of some sort. And, I remember when I first did it because I didn't know any of these people or whatever, and it was a kind of in a small room is like in someone's living room.
00:57:49:15 - 00:58:17:00
Speaker 3
And, the first few minutes I was like, this feels weird. And I was really aware of my own voice and everything. And then after a few, I feel totally opened up. And now I'm part of this unifying thing. And then I was way freer to ask questions that came up, and I felt connected to these people that I really didn't have an opportunity to, you know, I'd introduce myself to them and say hello, but I didn't know these people, but I felt vastly more connected to them after just chanting for like ten minutes.
00:58:17:02 - 00:58:42:10
Speaker 1
I know it's so simple and I people are so scared of it. I mean, if I, if I had a nickel for every time somebody said, are we gonna hold hands and think of my, and they friend Melanie Dunbar gets all up in people's faces because Kumbaya is a sacred song in the African-American tradition, and she's African American song leaders, singer, conductor, composer.
00:58:42:12 - 00:59:07:24
Speaker 1
And she is like, bruh, earthquakes. But. Oh, but but, my friend Peter Black, I'll be going to Cincinnati. He he's written really beautiful books. One is called community A structure for belonging. He wrote one with his friend John McKnight called The Pioneer Community. And it's just about what are the sort of conversations you can have in a group of people so that the future is distinct from the past.
00:59:08:01 - 00:59:39:10
Speaker 1
And he and I have chased around a lot together. Co kinoti and, he helped give words to what I instinctively felt music did in a room. And so I'll be going to Cincinnati and in early May to bring music to a gathering, about community that he is part of and a lot of other people. And thinking is going to be a part of it.
00:59:39:10 - 01:00:05:00
Speaker 1
And I'm so grateful that he actually gave a name to what I intuitively felt the music was doing. One of the things he says is, you know, the thing about he's kind of he's a tall, sardonic Jewish guy, very funny. And he's like, you know, the thing about music is, even if you hate it, it's got you. You can't defend against it.
01:00:05:02 - 01:00:26:19
Speaker 1
It's like, yeah. So we would do keynotes, you know, at these big conferences. And he would we'd both come on stage and I would before anybody said anything after the introduction, I would do a song and people would be just like, you know, this is it, like a big hotel conference room. And this is not what's expected. The piano.
01:00:26:23 - 01:00:52:07
Speaker 1
I have a big keyboard up there, and even they walk in the room and the piano has something like, yeah, looking at their little thing, you know, it's like, am I, am I in the right room? And then I want to do a song. And he would get up and, you know, because he's an old white man with a strong handshake and a bunch of bestselling books, he would just name what just happened and what my role was, and our dance was that it was like jazz.
01:00:52:07 - 01:01:13:09
Speaker 1
He would talk, and then I'd hear something he'd say, and then I'd just go stand at my keyboard and he would bring his comments in for landing, and then I would do a song, and people said, did you write that song just for that? And it was like, no, actually, I had to did write a lot of science based on things he said, because it's so eloquent.
01:01:13:11 - 01:01:26:17
Speaker 1
But we were plugged in to the same kind of, I don't know, meaning. Yeah, vain. And so we would do that back and forth. It was such a joy just that. So I'm excited I get to do this again.
01:01:26:17 - 01:01:32:00
Speaker 3
But yeah, that's so exciting. Yeah. You're speaking through the mycelial network of one another. My.
01:01:32:00 - 01:01:33:08
Speaker 1
Colleagues.
01:01:33:10 - 01:01:40:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay. So, I would like to talk about your books briefly. Your first book. How long has it been since you've written that one?
01:01:40:18 - 01:02:04:00
Speaker 1
2011, I think. Yeah, it's been a minute. It's for voice. The art and practice of vocal presence. And it goes through the five elements. Basically, it opens up a big conversation about what voice is, you know, beyond what we normally think. And then I got asked to write a second book, and this is that both of them are on audiobook and e-book and other things.
01:02:04:02 - 01:02:42:02
Speaker 1
But then I got asked to write vocal intelligence leading with vitality, presence and impact. And so this one still is about five elements, but it's kind of aimed more at readers, leadership. And so I tell a lot of stories about leaders. This the second one started as an audiobook. So I really recommend the audiobook for vocal intelligence, especially because that also includes about an hour of my music that I yeah, I would, you know, put and then there's also a part in there at the end it's called who you going to be, where you do what you do.
01:02:42:02 - 01:03:03:12
Speaker 1
And it's basically a keynote that I do a lot. It's a musical keynote. Five ideas for Sustaining Energy and Humanity in the Midst of chaos and so I took that keynote and I made it into, you know, put it at the end of the book, and it there's five ideas and five songs and stories and things.
01:03:03:12 - 01:03:05:17
Speaker 1
So those are my books.
01:03:05:19 - 01:03:06:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wonderful.
01:03:06:10 - 01:03:10:06
Speaker 1
And I just got the paperback of Vocal Intelligence yesterday.
01:03:10:08 - 01:03:15:00
Speaker 3
Oh, nice. That feels great to, like, actually hold the pencil. So cool. Yeah.
01:03:15:02 - 01:03:16:12
Speaker 1
I never planned it.
01:03:16:14 - 01:03:22:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. Did you plan on even writing a first book? Like, is that something you had on your agenda before you?
01:03:22:20 - 01:03:48:18
Speaker 1
You know, my strategic plan has been what the hell? Haha, yes. You know, so, I do a woman who had me in Georgia when I was there presenting to a group, and she connected to my first publisher, Barrett Koehler, great publisher, and said, I just heard this woman and I think she should write for us. So I came home from that trip with an email from an editor, and I was like, I had to read it four times.
01:03:48:18 - 01:04:11:07
Speaker 1
It's like, what? You know, I make I make nine recordings. I write songs and record songs. I'm a singer songwriter. That's what I make. I love to write, too. But, it didn't hurt that these two mentors of mine, Peter Black and Margaret Wheatley, are like rock star authors for them, and they gave a really nice endorsement as well.
01:04:11:12 - 01:04:38:02
Speaker 1
So, so didn't see that coming. But I put it, I actually had an ecstatic experience when in the rewrite, I don't remember much about it, and I just remember sitting at my dining room table just in an ecstatic state, rewriting this book. And, and then I got approached for the second one last year. I had no idea, I actually ignored the first email from his agent.
01:04:38:04 - 01:04:41:21
Speaker 1
So I get all kinds of, like, everybody had all kinds of silly things.
01:04:41:21 - 01:04:45:09
Speaker 3
But yeah, like, this was probably I and probably not not a real person.
01:04:45:09 - 01:04:47:11
Speaker 1
Is that. Yeah.
01:04:47:13 - 01:05:00:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay. So what have you I mean, the answer may be very well, your second book or in your second book, but what has changed about your message since your first book, if anything?
01:05:00:13 - 01:05:04:10
Speaker 1
That's a great question.
01:05:04:12 - 01:05:28:23
Speaker 1
You know, I feel like I just I'm just more sure that it's valuable. You know, I've seen it's been along I mean, I've seen a lot since I wrote the first one, and I had already done a lot of work. And as I tell the people I'm training, you can really trust the work. You know, you can trust these elements.
01:05:28:23 - 01:05:52:21
Speaker 1
You can trust the voice. You can trust the soul of the people you're working with. So I think the biggest thing that's changed is my conviction that this is an essential part of being human. Part of my work, part of my service work is I have a comfort choir. We sing for people who are in hospital or hospice.
01:05:52:23 - 01:06:20:22
Speaker 1
You call us up for? No. And we'll show up 4 or 5 people for no money and just sing for you songs of comfort and healing. It's the best work I do. And so I've had a lot of exposure to death and dying through that work. But also I've just had a lot of people die in my life and, lots of them rather consciously and, generously sharing their experience.
01:06:20:24 - 01:06:47:20
Speaker 1
And so for me, I think voice is just a huge part of how we get our gifts in this world before we die. I think we come here loaded with something, and I think our job over here is to learn to love and be loved, to quote the old Nature Boy song, the greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return, and to give the gifts that you're loaded with.
01:06:47:22 - 01:07:11:23
Speaker 1
And the voice is is a huge part of both of those things. So, so I feel like as I'm, as I'm getting closer to my own departure, hopefully it'll still. Well, who knows, who knows? But I am more convinced that, voice is a really big part of being having a good life.
01:07:12:00 - 01:07:28:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, being able to, communicate what's really in you kind of being a conduit. I wrote this line the other day that was, something along the lines of, I am a human, a human shaped hole in the universe. Yeah, it was something like that.
01:07:28:13 - 01:07:29:19
Speaker 1
You know, I love it.
01:07:29:21 - 01:07:32:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, I thought it was kind of good.
01:07:32:04 - 01:07:33:16
Speaker 1
Really good.
01:07:33:18 - 01:08:01:06
Speaker 3
But, yeah, I think it is. So many of these things, you call them spiritual if you'd like, but, you know, it's just a matter of, like we said, trying to get out of our own way, trying to uncork the ego and just allow, you know, something that is more divine or more true or, is in communion with one another to, to come forth, you know, to, to really pour out.
01:08:01:08 - 01:08:09:10
Speaker 1
What else would you rather be doing with your time? I know. Right? Really. You know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
01:08:09:12 - 01:08:32:12
Speaker 3
Okay. I just want to glance over my notes here. We are getting up here in time. I think I had a couple more, Okay. I did want to ask you about, So, I'm. I'm a big fan of meditation and, one that I found. And I keep coming back to kind of my daily for, for few the last few years has been actually transcendental meditation at the mantra Meditation TM, if you're familiar.
01:08:32:14 - 01:08:48:03
Speaker 3
And, it's for me. I've just basically I was given a nonsense word. It doesn't have meaning to anybody but me. It's just kind of a trigger word that in my head, I know it's just a relaxation of my nervous system, and I repeat that for 20 minutes, ideally twice a day, if I can get it.
01:08:48:03 - 01:09:10:03
Speaker 3
But definitely, once a day for 20 minutes. And I notice, especially after, like the couple hours afterwards, it's almost like the background of the mantra is continually going on, like even after I stand up in. It's almost where kind of the piece is. It's like this have cleared away some of the the mud of the daily self.
01:09:10:05 - 01:09:30:00
Speaker 3
And I have this continuous like calm reminder that everything is okay, my nervous system is fine and I can allow it all, etc. etc. it just kind of works in the macro. Something I notice on your on your Ted talks was like I would be listening to my phone is on the counter and after everyone was done singing, you'd be talking.
01:09:30:02 - 01:09:47:17
Speaker 3
And then I think, like, you would start the monitor back up or you'd have the audience start it back up and I would pick back up right with them. So, like, even in my party or even in my house here, I was like the mantra of the group singing that I had just listened to was still working through me, and I don't even I didn't really consciously notice it until it's pick back up.
01:09:47:19 - 01:10:05:15
Speaker 3
So, I just want to kind of ask you about what do you think about mantras in do you think singing, especially group singing, is a bit of a mantra that kind of stays with us? Is it like a deposit into a bank that that just keeps, you know, gaining in currency, I guess?
01:10:05:17 - 01:10:30:07
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah. I, I always have something in my going in my background. I people give me music all the time and I'm like, I just don't listen to it because I have an inner I have an inner Spotify going all the time and it's usually something I'm working on, you know, I, you know, I'm almost always writing something.
01:10:30:09 - 01:10:59:24
Speaker 1
And, so, but I've also noticed that the silence after the song or the chant is maybe that's why we do it. So after years of of noticing this, I made a little poem. And the first time I've written a poem that I didn't write it down until I got it done. I did it all oral tradition, and I was.
01:10:59:24 - 01:11:26:02
Speaker 1
I lead retreats and, singing retreat for Women in Mexico. And yes, it's fun. And I was walking the beach and writing this. I remember kind of where I was. And it goes like this. We make this song for the silence that comes after and laughters for the ache that lingers in our middle. And the riddles for is what happens as we quest for the rhyme.
01:11:26:04 - 01:11:50:10
Speaker 1
And time is for the knowing of the timeless. And I'm less inclined to think that I make a song. It's clear it's been here all along. And my longing and this silence calls the song.
01:11:50:12 - 01:11:53:13
Speaker 1
It's so. And thank you.
01:11:53:15 - 01:11:54:17
Speaker 3
I love that one.
01:11:54:19 - 01:12:23:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I feel like there's sound all the time, everywhere. And then when we use our voices in some way, we plug in into the resonant hum of life that is happening all the time. And then I do think sometimes the song is just the little factory for the byproduct of that resonant. For some silence after the band.
01:12:23:16 - 01:12:45:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, well, so well said. I think you answered my question better than I could have even dreamed of. That's so good. Yeah. Yeah, it. Yeah, digs us out of our own way. Okay. Well, great. We are getting up here, Barbara. Thank you so much for your time. Can I just ask you anybody who's listening who wants to explore more?
01:12:45:22 - 01:12:57:16
Speaker 3
Of course they can. Go check out your books. Those will be linked down below. I'll link your website down below. But what are you working on? What do you got going on in the next, coming months or years? What can we look forward to as far as your work?
01:12:57:18 - 01:13:15:09
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. Well, the things that I know about, you know, there are things that always emerge that I was like, oh, I didn't see that coming. What the hell? I have regular online full voice fundamentals courses that I do, and they have a five week introduction to the elements that people are interested in digging into those.
01:13:15:11 - 01:13:38:13
Speaker 1
I do them a couple times a year and it's a blast. So that's a really easy access. I'm also creating a self-directed course, and the next couple months, people want to be able to just do it themselves. I think it's more fun with other humans, but, you know, and then I also I'm leading some retreats, about living and dying.
01:13:38:16 - 01:14:09:16
Speaker 1
I made a new retreat called living Dying Music in Mystery. And it is a mix of telling stories from what I've learned from my friends who have died, from friends and family members. It's kind of like an extended death cafe, you know, exploring questions around death and dying and then a lot of singing so that you're loaded up with some songs that you can take to the people around you or, and or yourself as you look at your own mortality.
01:14:09:18 - 01:14:31:08
Speaker 1
And, so I do doing that in Pennsylvania in the fall and in and Whidbey Island also in the fall and in Bayfield, Wisconsin next winter. So, yeah, that's the growing edge of my work. I just started that in the last couple of years, and it's been really, really rich.
01:14:31:10 - 01:14:51:06
Speaker 3
Oh yeah, I, I can only imagine I listen to a lot of Ram Dass. I'm a big fan of Rob Duff. And he talks I, I learned so much from him when he talks about, working with people who are dying. Even even him just talking about taking care of his own father and his stepmother as they were, you know, leaving leaving Earth and.
01:14:51:08 - 01:14:56:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wow. What a beautiful endeavor. What a truly, human experience.
01:14:56:04 - 01:15:07:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. I also be doing some work in California this fall. Around voice and or living and dying. We're still organizing the tour. Probably around Monterey, Carmel area and San Diego.
01:15:07:16 - 01:15:09:14
Speaker 3
Oh, okay. And they can call you that.
01:15:09:15 - 01:15:24:17
Speaker 1
Easiest way is just to get on my website and sign up for my stuff. And then you'll get you'll get some songs as they get born and, some other news about what's what's shaking.
01:15:24:19 - 01:15:32:16
Speaker 3
Very well. Yeah. So everybody head to the website, all that's linked down below. Do you stay active on any social media, any Facebook, Instagram, anything like that or Facebook?
01:15:32:16 - 01:15:36:05
Speaker 1
Instagram. And I am also on LinkedIn, but I'm less interested.
01:15:36:07 - 01:15:38:10
Speaker 3
But yeah, LinkedIn is a weird one, isn't it?
01:15:38:12 - 01:15:56:01
Speaker 1
It is just strange. Yeah, I just don't I don't know. And I'm still new enough to Instagram. But I'm getting better. I'm getting better at it. I'm a cold puncher. I, it's March, you know, I got in and this year, on March 22nd, the river was open.
01:15:56:03 - 01:15:57:12
Speaker 3
So I in the river.
01:15:57:12 - 01:16:09:16
Speaker 1
To a very cold river. So, yeah, I write, I often post from down there on the court things where I've just gotten out and I'm like, whoa.
01:16:09:18 - 01:16:20:22
Speaker 3
That's yeah, that's that's a high, followed by a silence unlike unlike no other. The, I feel like the sound of less inflammation in your body is brings us as a clarity of mind.
01:16:20:24 - 01:16:25:15
Speaker 1
I just absolutely love the feeling. Yeah, I miss that. The deep winter. Because I can get in.
01:16:25:17 - 01:16:36:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, I'm actually thinking I got this in my back door there. I'm thinking I'm going to invest one of those, chillers. Now that I have my own home, I can, do a cold plunge at home. So I'm with you on the cold plunge.
01:16:36:16 - 01:16:39:01
Speaker 1
All right? Yeah, I think you might be.
01:16:39:03 - 01:16:54:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'm a cold punch guy, too. All right, Barbara. Well, thank you again. So much for your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you. Just for doing your work and following your intuition. It seems you've helped many people. It was it was great to hear from you and explore more of your work.
01:16:54:05 - 01:17:01:14
Speaker 3
I'm looking forward to check out more of your work in the future. And, this was such a great time with you. So just thank you so much.
01:17:01:16 - 01:17:11:08
Speaker 1
Thank you so much. It was a real joy to chat with you. And I hope what we came up with was useful to other people. But honestly, I had a ball.
01:17:11:10 - 01:17:12:09
Speaker 3
That's what I would do, but I know.
01:17:12:09 - 01:17:13:12
Speaker 1
It's a win already for me.
01:17:13:17 - 01:17:21:18
Speaker 3
I feel a little selfish sometimes. I'm like, I just love doing this. I just really get excited to have these conversations. So I guess I'll hit record, you know? So,
01:17:21:20 - 01:17:30:16
Speaker 1
I don't know if it's going to do anything in the world, but my job is to make sure people know about what I carry. That's all I want is to be useful. So.
01:17:30:18 - 01:17:44:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you're commenting that and, Yeah, anybody who's listening, check out more Barbara's work. Follow her, reach out to her if you have any more questions. And then what do I always say at the end of these episodes? If you haven't drank any water today, what do you do? And, man, you got to drink some water.
01:17:44:18 - 01:18:04:14
Speaker 3
If you haven't stretched today, do a little stretching. And then how about you do a little singing as well? Test out your five elements and, test out your singing voice. Barbara, thanks one more time, listeners. Love yourself, and we will see you next episode.