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What are pilots really seeing in our skies, and why aren't we talking about it?
The Safe Aerospace Podcast brings together military aviators, commercial pilots, air traffic controllers, aerospace professionals, and policymakers to tackle one of aviation's most pressing and least discussed challenges: UAP (unidentified aerial phenomena) in controlled airspace.
Hosted by Former F/A-18 pilot, Ryan Graves from Americans for Safe Aerospace, the podcast goes beyond the headlines to explore what UAP encounters mean for flight safety, national security, and the future of airspace transparency. Each episode features firsthand accounts from credentialed professionals, analysis of emerging policy developments, and conversations with the researchers and lawmakers working to bring scientific rigor and institutional accountability to a long-stigmatized issue. The Safe Aerospace Podcast is produced by SafeAero Media.
When I took the night
vision goggles away, it was invisible.
There was nothing there.
on the belly side
there was six lights or or seven lights.
Maybe,
maybe it was three down each side
and then one at the tip
What color are those lights?
Do you remember?
Well, you're under NVG so So,
you know,
but but I can tell you about the lights,
they weren't projecting onto the ground.
this particular evening,
we're in guard mount,
and I'm checking out my weapons.
And so I
go ahead and check out some night vision
goggles because I, the guy I was on
patrol with was kind of interested.
I had kind of told him,
hey, man, I'm going to check these out
and we're going to let's
go to that darkest spot
inside the restricted area
we can find, and let's go
look up the night sky.
So, I look over to my left, in there
I see, what I would describe
as a probably a football field size,
v shaped craft.
my leader on patrol was like, hey,
what's going on? You know?
So I handed him
the night vision goggles and,
and then so he sees the craft, I'm like,
hey, look up, you know, right over here.
I come to any sort of a conclusion.
But, you know,
I can tell you what I seen was,
it didn't seem human,
Welcome back to the
Safe Aerospace podcast.
I'm Ryan Graves,
joined today by former
Airman First Class Logan Levy.
Thanks for joining us here today.
And thanks for tuning in.
We're continuing to grow.
If you like the content
that we're putting out,
please be sure to subscribe,
like the channel and hit that bell
so you can be notified of new episodes.
It really does help us out.
Logan, thanks for coming down to Austin.
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah. So,
we're gonna get into your history
a little bit here first.
But, you know,
one of the reasons you're here
is because,
you reported something
to Americans for Safe Aerospace.
And I want to thank you
for being willing
to come forward
and actually share that information.
You know,
I've been talking to people
for a while about this.
And 4 or 5 years ago,
you know,
when I was trying
to get people to talk about it
publicly, they'd, be a bit.
I'd say a lot more hesitant
than they are now.
Why are you more comfortable
coming forward
and talk about your experience now?
Yeah. So
full circle here, I guess.
But, probably seeing you and
excuse me
that you and David Grosch and and,
Commander Frazier
testify in front of Congress, and,
that's really
what kind of set the wheels in motion,
I think, for me. Yeah.
also, when you were on JR,
you you suggested that veterans
pilots, anybody
that had some sort of a incident
or experience,
they should go to Americans for Safe
Aerospace and report it.
And that's what I did.
Very good.
I'm glad someone was listening.
No, we've been getting a lot of people
coming to us, and I.
I always can't help
but think of just how few of reports
we actually get,
even though we get a lot. Right.
I think this is something
that seems to be happening quite a bit.
Well, let's go back.
Who who am I sitting
across the table from?
You want to give me a quick rundown
of join the service
and what you did there? Sure. Yeah.
So I graduated high school in 2006.
Enlisted in the Air Force.
Did the delayed entry program,
so I was, in 2007. August.
I went to basic training in San Antonio.
And we had a I t for security forces.
Is also down at Lackland Air Force
What's a I t.
It's tech school for Okay.
It's it's your formal training.
Whatever your job is in the military.
That's you're going to do. So.
So we did our tech school down there.
And we did our field training.
We did law enforcement.
A lot of different.
A lot of different stuff from there.
I got stationed.
In Colorado Springs
at Shrewsbury Air Force
And so from Steen Antonio,
we went to Colorado Springs and,
you know,
that was my first and only duty station.
What else? What else?
What.
What would you do while you were there
in your duty station.
So I was a
we we had
it was a big restricted area base.
A lot of restricted access to
different things. There's there's a,
a lot of mods and stuff in there.
I don't know if I'm
like, you know,
satellite pilots essentially,
or they're in a and,
so we had a lot of internal patrols,
a lot of security, static patrol, static
And you were your
you were running that security
or you were participating in it? Yeah.
Okay. Correct?
Yes.
So you'd patrol,
you'd be patrolling the base,
you know, maintain security Correct.
inside a perimeter.
Around the perimeter, presumably.
Is that sound fair?
Yeah.
Okay. Very good.
How long did you do that for?
I did it for three years.
I did a four year enlistment.
It was cut a little short
because of the sequester
during the Obama administration.
So I got out then.
And then from there,
I did a security contract with DoD,
in Baghdad,
where we had to
keep our secret clearance, And, and,
after that contract was over,
I just, I went back
home and began my civilian Yeah.
Very good.
Well, I'll admit,
you know, being a Navy guy.
The ways of the Air Force
are sometimes lost on me.
So,
and I, I've always heard the rumors of,
the great red line on the flight line.
You know,
for the Air Force pilots,
you know,
without proper clearance,
if you crossed that line,
there was
always an Air Force security guard there
ready to whip your butt just waiting. and
probably take a great pleasure.
I. Yeah.
Was it, like,
kind of like a similar operation
like that
where you guys had,
you know,
these kind of control lines
that you guys would,
you know, be responsible for
or kind of more general patrol
on the base type thing?
Yeah.
So there was
a little bit of law enforcement,
Yeah, lot of security.
We didn't have a flight line
at Schriever.
Yeah.
So so we didn't have
any of the flight line stuff.
It was internal EC entry control points.
And we would guard those,
and we would grant access
into and out of those.
Is it military?
Mostly a lot of civilians
that work there.
There's a lot of civilians at Schriever.
Yeah.
A lot of high ranking civilian.
So it's probably
it's probably a mixed bag about 5050,
I would say. Okay.
And, you know, what kind of,
what kind of gear
you guys walking around with?
I mean, you know,
I'm sure you're armed
all that, but, like,
you know, like,
I'm sure it'll come relevant here
when we discuss your case, but,
you know, envy, perhaps.
Or, you know, things like that. Yeah.
So.
we so we had
access to thermals and night
vision goggles and and, to,
to conduct our security
for the, for the evening
or for, for the shift.
Yeah.
And so you would check that out
from the armory
as you were getting your weapons.
So if you decided
you wanted
to grab thermals or night vision goggles,
that's when you would check them out.
Is at that same time.
So, but we would carry,
very various
surveillance, observation, tools to,
to help us.
I'm not trying to get you to say
anything classified,
of course, or you're not supposed to.
So feel free to,
you know,
say you can't respond in any manner.
I personally like
taking them out on the boat
and looking up at the stars,
because you could see a million of them.
Don't know if that was something
you guys ever partook in.
I don't know what the light
pollution is like over there.
Yeah, it was pretty lit up.
That was it.
yeah, we wanted it to be well lit So
that's fair. Yeah.
all the perimeters and stuff,
but there was some pockets
inside of the base
where we could go, and.
And it would be pretty, pretty dim. Yeah.
And so that is something that we did we,
you know,
checked out the night vision
goggles to observe this guy.
I assume the UAP event will talk about
was probably
at least
one of
the most interesting
things that happened to you
at that duty station,
but did you guys have any other,
like, kind of cool
security stories or anything like that?
Well, we would have
protesters out there all the time,
and they would be wearing the Star Wars
gear and telling us
to stay out of space space
outside of the main entrance.
Stuff like that.
Star Wars is all like
little has wars in the name.
Like it's a very violent,
you know, projection of the future.
It's interesting.
yeah, we did have one security incident.
In fact,
it was a security forces member who,
took a hostage in
and barricaded himself
inside of one of the mods.
Wow. What's a mod?
The monster just in there.
Just a
they're compartmentalized facilities.
Okay. Just little security spaces.
Internal security spaces? Yeah.
you know, various Air Force.
Personnel
would would operate and do their job,
Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, man.
It's,
That was scary for the
the victim of that.
Do you guys train for.
I mean, you must do,
like, hostage type work. Yeah.
We do.
Ultimately,
they called in El Paso County Swat.
You know,
I don't know that
we're probably the best group
to conduct that sort of business.
Were you on duty when that happened?
I not.
I was not. Nope. Nope.
Unfortunately, nothing very cool
ever happened to me.
Went out while I was on duty.
From a security standpoint.
Yeah.
I think that's kind of the goal
though, right. With security.
So but still it's always fun
to have a cool story.
tucked back in there in the countryside
a little bit.
It's not in Colorado Springs okay.
outside of the city limits.
So, there's not a lot out there.
It's much just us. You're good.
Oh. Very cool.
And when you guys go out,
you go in, like, small teams, or you got.
it would be a two man patrol.
Or if you're at one of the ISPs,
typically be one security forces
member accompanied
by a civilian contractor,
a civilian guard. Okay.
But all the
all the mobile patrols were
two man patrols. Okay.
Well,
perhaps we get into your experience.
Why don't
why don't you kind of take us through,
you know, the the night of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let me backtrack just Yeah.
just a smidge, if you please do.
So, what what led me to
to checking out these night
vision goggles
this particular evening was
I was listening to a show
called Coast to Coast Am,
which is pretty famous, you know?
But he had a guest on
and it was a George Noory,
I think it was.
And he had a guest on
who went around and did UFO conventions.
And,
he said that
he had some Gen three night
vision goggles,
and he would just go around the country
and different people would show up
and they would observe this guy,
just casually, and they would see
different things.
What he described, which I thought was,
you know,
something would be really cool to see,
was just
he said it appeared to be like
a satellite,
but it would just do a 90 degree turn
or something like that.
was seeing stuff like this pretty often.
And that's what,
you know,
a lot of people in the crowds
were seeing stuff like that. So,
you know, had I seen something like that,
you know, I would have been tickled.
But what I seen was
definitely a a lot more than that.
Yeah.
Well,
I, I will say just briefly
before we get into it,
you know, lots of reports at ASA about,
you know, things that appear
to be satellites at first,
but then make movements
that are very inconsistent,
you know, with,
with how satellites
operate, orbital trajectories.
So I can definitely vouch
that is something people see quite a bit.
Well, yeah.
Please. Please continue. Yeah.
So this particular evening,
you know,
we we,
we're in guard mount,
and I'm checking out my weapons.
And so I
go ahead and check out some night
vision goggles because I,
I got a
the guy I was on patrol
with was kind of interested.
I had kind of told him,
hey, man, I'm going to check these out
and we're going to let's
go to that darkest spot
inside the restricted area
we can find, and let's go
look up the night sky.
So, check them out.
And and we did just that.
We, we we had some alarm testing to do
and stuff
before we kind of
had a break in the shift.
So we went
and did our perimeter checks
and checked all the sensors
and everything. Everything was fine.
Just another casual evening.
And so it's me.
I'm a alpha on a patrol, so I have a,
my leaders with me.
He's a staff sergeant.
And, And then we have a
there's another single patrol with us.
He was one of the law enforcement patrols
that patrols
outside of the restricted area.
But again, it's you no
middle of the night, and and,
it's Schriever Air Force Base,
and there's not a lot going on.
So he's he's, hanging out with us. Okay.
so, so we're all together
and we all take turns
looking at this guy, and,
you can see all of the stars.
You know, it's quite beautiful. And.
And so we just sit around
and did that for a little bit.
We didn't see anything.
There was nothing peculiar.
And so we had
set out in this particular spot
for probably an hour or so,
just kind of,
you know, smoking and joking and,
Some time
had gone by and we
hadn't really messed
with the night vision goggles much.
We were just kind of talking
and stuff, and, and,
I picked him back up and,
I look over to my left,
up into my left, and,
and in there
I see, what I would describe as a
probably a football field size,
v v shaped craft.
Just just the wings.
There was no,
there was no body of the craft,
like a, like a F-117 or B-2.
You know, there's
they have the swept wings,
but they but,
you know,
there's a fuselage
and there's everything going on in,
It's just looked like two like things,
two wings coming together kind of. Yeah.
that's all it was.
just in the shape of the.
And on the belly side
there was six lights or or seven lights.
Maybe,
maybe it was three down each side
and then one at the tip or,
or one at the tip and then, you know,
but it definitely had large lights on
the belly side of it.
What color are those lights?
Do you remember?
Well, you're under NVG so So,
you know,
but but I can tell you about the lights,
they weren't projecting onto the ground.
There was no
there was no actual light
displayed from this craft
in, in,
in to get back to that particular moment,
I'm looking up like this, and,
I can't believe what I'm seeing.
I take the night vision
goggles away from my face.
And there's nothing in the sky.
nothing there.
I would estimate that this was 1000ft
in altitude.
But it's. Yeah, that's pretty close.
Pretty low. Very low.
And it was massive.
And it was just barely hovering along.
It wasn't there, you know, it wasn't,
you know, even, like a Cessna
or something like that.
I, you know, you you
you hear it,
there's an audible,
you know,
you can hear the propulsion,
you can see that it's moving.
There's some consistency to the flight.
This was just
almost hovering,
you know, it's barely moving along.
But it was moving.
It was moved.
Yeah, but for something that size,
I mean,
it just sort of defies physics,
you know, as we understand it.
Because
nothing that big should be able
to move
that slow in the sky,
at least for that long period of time.
And I and I watched it there.
So when I took the night vision
goggles away
and I put them back up
and there it was again.
And so I watched for another,
you know, 30s or something.
And I,
you know, said, holy, you know, and I
the, the,
my leader on patrol was like, hey,
what's going on? You know?
So I handed him
the night vision goggles and,
and then so he sees the craft, I'm like,
hey, look up, you know, right over here.
And so
he then observes the craft and he,
you know,
makes a remark like, oh my God,
you know, whatever he said.
And, he watches it for a little while.
We had the third guy with us.
And so he ultimately,
after watching it
for a little while himself,
he passed it over to the third guy.
And
and so he also observed it
just briefly, I think in a
and that was it.
But the whole thing lasted
maybe a minute,
maybe two, maybe a minute and a half,
something like
But I just but I just watched it slowly,
you know, silently.
And, and the other thing is,
When I took the night vision
goggles away, it was invisible.
There was nothing there.
No sound could bites it.
Presumably with the
the night vision goggles off.
You can see the stars there.
Is that fair to say? Yeah.
Do you think.
I mean, did
you try to see if you could see
if it was blocking out the stars at all
with the goggles off, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
At least you not that you could tell.
Or could you tell
it was not blocking out specifically
or you just don't recall it?
Yeah, I. Don't call that.
However,
what I, what I do remember
and it was a substantial event,
you know, as,
as it would be for anybody, but,
what I do recall
is not seeing anything there. No noise.
It had lights on it.
There was no lights.
There was just nothing there.
It was just sky, as far as I remember.
Now, could it have been
cloaked and kind of,
you know, blacking out
where, where it was traveling.
Supposed, though, I didn't see that.
What I seen was a physical craft
through the night vision goggles with
what appeared to be lights,
a giant craft, and
and then when you take the goggles away,
it just disappeared. It's there.
let's give me, like,
a sense of how big this thing is.
Like, if you had your arms out,
you know,
would this be the size of baseball
in your field of view?
This as big as
I don't know,
what's this big a loaf of bread
like a beach ball or like,
how big was this, if you could remember?
Probably wouldn't
take up the space of the beach
ball, but, definitely.
Show me. Show me how, baby. You think.
You know,
as I look over here, I mean, it's,
you know, it's it's taken up, you know?
Okay, we'll call that one
loaf of bread, perhaps. Okay.
Pretty close.
It's super helpful to do that, though,
because it really like,
I'll talk to some people
and they'll be describing
something in my brain.
I'm picturing something the size of,
like a marble that they're seeing,
and then they're like,
no, dude, this was like,
you know,
the size of a dinner
plate, like in my field of view,
which is like what's like, whoa,
you know,
so we're talking a loaf of bread size,
us standard.
At 1000ft.
Someone smarter than I,
I'm sure in the comments
will do the math for us to tell us,
you know,
if that if that altitude is accurate,
you know how big that is.
But that's a pretty,
pretty damn large craft, I would imagine.
seems very large.
And, you know,
on deployments and stuff,
working flight lines, we did see,
you know, large aircraft take off a lot.
And, and I seen
pretty much the Air Force's entire
fleet of different aircraft
and their largest
and this this was substantially larger
than anything that I seen.
Was it like, where it came together?
Was it
like a sharp point at the end
or around it?
So it's sharp.
shaped exactly like a V.
Just came to a
sharp point and had the swept back wings.
And at the,
they were rectangular
They were at the end of the these two,
they were sharply like a, like a no.
No kidding.
V weren't rounded or anything.
They came to a sharp point
or not a sharp point, but
but a square edge Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah.
you tell if there was width to it?
didn't seem to be flat.
Yeah.
I, I can't tell you for sure
what the depth was.
But it didn't appear to
just be a flat craft.
Yeah, it seemed to be,
you know, some space inside of Yeah.
Yeah.
But it wasn't very large.
I mean, it was relatively flat.
It So you could
truly see a side, though,
you think, you know, like,
you do see some with
or you just think, like, perceptually
it seemed three dimensional in your mind
versus like, actually seeing,
like a side edge, you know.
Just this perception.
Yeah.
You know
and and I mostly seen it
from the underbelly,
but it was off into my right.
And so I could see a little bit of the,
you know, the side of it,
but but again, it was relatively flat.
Didn't appear to be totally flat.
So I can't tell you for sure
how much depth there was there,
but I can tell you that it
it wasn't flat.
like it.
Try to describe the lights a little bit.
I mean, not everyone looked through
night vision goggles.
You know, one, you know,
what's a craft like, actually. Look like?
Are you seeing, like,
a physical object
that, you know, is greenish,
you know, through the M vgs,
and those lights are
like well-defined
circles, perhaps,
that are much brighter or, you know,
looking at a,
you know, a jet engine,
there can be like some wayfaring,
you know, the light
and whatnot was just like steady light,
you know. was steady light.
They were large circular lights.
They just, you know,
sort of appeared the same color
as a street light, basically.
No crazy color to them or anything.
But they were large and circular.
And they weren't casting
any light down whatsoever.
So you like,
look down at the ground and you didn't,
you know,
way these
work for people that don't know
night vision goggles
is that,
you know, you can only see stuff
if there's light to catch, right?
So they just kind of enhance that light.
And so, you know, you look at the trees,
you might,
you know,
if it's completely pitch black
and there's no light whatsoever,
you're still not going to see
the trees, you know, theoretically.
But if there's some background
light there
that might be too dim for the human eye,
you're going to see that reflect off
those trees.
You're going to see something break out.
And so presumably with this craft
being visible up there,
it would be emanating enough light
to illuminate the ground below.
It is the suggestion. Yeah.
You think it was low enough
and bright enough for. That 100%? Yeah.
I, you know,
you see aircraft on approach and descent,
right, coming into an airport
or something.
And they have their headlights, on or
and they're pretty bright.
And you and that's, you know, obvious.
Now can you see it shining on the ground?
Probably not necessarily, unless you're.
I don't know.
I mean,
you see one
pretty darn bright when you look at them.
And presumably
some of that light is hitting your face
and these goggles
would illuminate that even further,
you know.
suggest maybe at 1000ft
once they, you know,
are on that final descent. Right.
And they're getting down low,
then I bet they're probably shining
some light down on the ground.
You probably know better than I do.
But I didn't see any of that.
There was none of that.
They were definitely lights.
It's hard to say,
because the entire thing was so bizarre.
It's hard to relate it to to something
that we understand, I guess.
So, so I have a hard time
comparing it to anything.
Yeah.
But, but but I can just tell you
there were large
circular lights in at that altitude.
You know,
I would think that you would see
some sort of a,
you know, shine on the ground or
onto something.
And there was just none of that.
It was just completely invisible.
How high up the horizon where you see
it was like over your head.
Was it off you know. Yeah.
It was just off into my left.
Yeah. Yeah.
It wasn't up over my head like this.
I mean, I did have to look up,
like this, you know, but but,
it wasn't anything.
I was looking way up into the sky
or anything like that.
Was it going
away from you, toward you, crossing
across.
Well, it was it was coming,
basically over
my left shoulder
and then out in front of me.
Well,
do you know what direction
you were facing?
I was facing,
yes, I was facing.
I believe I was facing north
in this craft would have came
from the southwest
and was traveling to the northeast.
Yeah.
North northeast or northwest?
Southwest to northeast
is coming diagonal,
kind of from your left
shoulder in front of you and then off,
like, forward and right. Kind of.
Okay. Okay.
Very good.
Okay.
Interesting.
What did you guys.
What did you guys say to each other?
It was just disbelief, really.
You know, I think we
we questioned what we just see.
What what did you see?
You know, type of deal,
and, and, you know,
we had a brief conversation
about it, and, and,
you know,
we talked about it after the fact.
And I, I remember.
Hey, are we going to call this
over the net?
You know,
because an aircraft, any aircraft flying
that low over our restricted area is,
You know, that that Cause for concern?
It's cause for concern.
Yeah.
You're going to wonder what,
you know, you would see
aircraft fly over,
you know, at a
at a higher altitude
a lot, but never at that altitude.
Are you aware of
the airspace itself is like
like truly restricted airspace
or just the base of self,
you know, a controlled space?
Both I think I, I
don't know that
they because it's restricted airspace
if you cannot fly over it
but it's you know,
you're not supposed to fly
so low over the top of
I don't know what that's called, but..
So I mean
if it's just like any normal building
there's rules, regulations
and basically you get about 500ft or so.
So it could technically be lower
if it was just like a Cessna
bumbling around like a tower,
you know, like a
a building or a tower
or a barn or whatever.
But the military often imposed
like specific like,
hey, this
this whole base is restricted airspace
and you have to say
like five miles away or not.
And, you know,
our bombing ranges are restricted
airspace, for example.
I because we didn't have a flight line,
we didn't have,
like an absolute restricted Or something.
Yeah, yeah,
it's totally normal not to have,
you know, a base like that.
Unless you're truly
utilizing that airspace
or if,
you know,
there's a real security concern.
So it's possible
the way it was flying
was technically legal,
although very suspicious, obviously.
But no report.
report? No, No. Yeah.
I think,
you know, quickly,
we just determined that,
you know, reporting it would be a
not taken seriously.
probably laughed out a little bit.
Question for sure. Right. Excuse me.
What do you.
You know, tell me again
what you're saying.
It would have been questioned it.
And I don't know
what would have came of it
had we reported it.
You know, it's I can
I can just speculate that it, you know,
would have been scrutinized.
I can't say that for sure.
I don't know what would have happened
had I reported it, but,
you know, we all determined
no way
that we're going to call this over
the net. Same thing with pilots.
I think probably, you know, it's it's,
you don't want to say anything
crazy and sound like,
this guy's out of his mind.
Get get him out of the cockpit Sure.
So, same thing with us.
You know, we're we're,
you know, we're guarding
priority level one resources.
And,
and that required some of us to have,
you know,
advanced clearances
and, and,
none of us were interested
in losing that.
And, and in,
There's an irony there though, right?
Because
it's such an important facility
and it requires
security forces to,
you know,
how their security clearances and,
you know, various training and whatnot.
And yet, you know,
someone
something flies, something suspicious,
potentially using,
you know,
minimizing their visual signature
and presumably other signatures over,
you know, highly classified base Space
Force base
one that
is presumably communicating
two space assets
from the ground, potentially. Right.
And to have something fly over intercept
those signals seems like something
that one might want to report.
And this isn't me.
Like saying, why didn't you?
But it's this weird,
you know, position that we find ourselves
in where
if you see something that is
reminiscent of,
you know, things that have been reported
in the UFO,
UAP space for decades, it seems
we have this
natural subversions is just saying now,
you know, That's right.
And it's strange.
You know,
part of me wants to say, you know,
if it is not intelligence
or something like that,
and thank God it's not China
because we're just,
you know,
making fools of ourselves
by just ignoring an adversary,
potentially spying on us, you know?
Yeah.
And so,
you know, to piggyback off
what we're talking about earlier,
how I kind of,
you know, got into reporting this,
you know, here
hearing you guys
testifying in front of Congress,
I had never considered it
to be an adversary.
I never considered that as an option.
I just thought, whoa,
I seen something really crazy.
And, and I left it at that.
And, you know, hindsight's 2020,
and maybe it was,
you know,
I don't know definitively
that it was not Yeah.
it could have been
I don't know that they haven't achieved
any gravity of some sort
and have some stealth aircraft
that's sucking up,
you know, tons of classified information.
and it flew directly over, that
priority level one resource,
right over the top of it.
And I guess even,
you know, just to go get,
you know,
take even a step further,
even if it was something truly anomalous,
do we also not want to know
that that's something
that they're interested in.
If, if that was the case,
if it was determined that these are not
and they're not ours and there's some
something else we've, you know,
perhaps yet to figure out,
is it important to know
that they're flying over
critical space infrastructure?
Yeah. I think it is.
I think so, too.
That's why
I think it's important
to talk about this.
How would you have reported it
if you guys had made that decision?
Where would that have gone?
if we had reported it, we we would have
we would have either landline,
the control desk,
or we would have called it over the net.
Calling it over the net sounds crazy.
You When you say no,
this is like, just like your radio.
Yeah, yeah.
So so, you know,
if you
if you hear a guy
come over the radio and say,
control, this is Fox one,
be advised we see a UFO flying over
echo one right now.
You're probably going
to get a phone call. Yeah.
They're going say, hey, landline me ASAP.
And so
and so we did consider reporting it And
and what we would have done is
we would have told the flight chief
at the into shift or we would have,
you know, reported it
straight to the security desk.
So this thing,
it just
kind of continued on
and went out of sight or how,
how did this come to a conclusion.
Correct. Yeah.
And so I don't know how
the last guy seen it, fly away.
I can just tell you what I seen from
from the time that I was observing it.
And it just casually,
you know, left the airspace and,
you know,
I passed it on to the next guy,
and he you can
you can see him turning
and watching this thing, you know, move.
So it did fly away.
And that's
what the third guy
ultimately said
is that,
well, it just took off, so I don't
I didn't see that.
I didn't see anything take off.
I didn't see anything
instantaneously accelerate and disappear.
Anything like that.
What I seen
was the V shaped craft with the lights
totally invisible. No
sign of any sort of propulsion.
No sound whatsoever.
And I just watched it
sort of hover over,
over the base and,
and pass it on to the next guy.
So.
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is there
is there anything in the direction
that was going
that you think would be,
you know, worth noting
or where it came from, perhaps?
Hard to say.
Hard to speculate. If.
don't know
if there's like another base over there
where of and you don't have to speculate.
But.
southwest of the country,
there's, you know,
several other Air
Force bases and down in Utah,
you know, there's Air Force base.
And so I don't
who's to say where it came from,
where it originated,
and what it was observing
and what its like path was. Exactly.
Yeah.
I know if this was
like a cluster of bases
maybe that were nearby kind of thing.
of Colorado Springs,
we have Schriever Air Force Base,
which is sort of on the outskirts. Right.
Peterson Air
Force Base is in Colorado Springs proper,
and, the Air Force
Academy is just outside of town
a little bit,
but we also have Cheyenne Mountain, and,
and so there's a lot of nor adds that,
you know, so
yeah,
there's a of things to be observed
and there's a lot of,
space based
assets, you know, that,
could potentially be compromised.
So there's a lot of very important
classified equipment
in that particular area.
I'm going to kind of
maybe shift it a little bit more.
But is there any like specific
like facts
or points about this case you think you,
you want to mention before we kind of
maybe sit back
and think about it a little bit?
I think what I would like to mention in,
you know, of course,
since this has happened,
I've done a lot of my own research and,
and explored,
you know,
hey, v
shaped craft, v shaped UFO, v shaped UAP
because, you know, I'm
certain of what I seen
and I know it to be a fact in,
so I've tried
to find
other cases similar
or other sightings or,
and there's a couple of videos online.
You know, you can
you can probably find them on YouTube
and some stuff just going real fast and,
and but the most compelling case to me
that seems very similar is
the Phoenix Lights
The shape is described Yeah.
the same.
And I know some people said
there was a V shaped craft,
and then some people seem
like a boomerang boomerang shaped craft.
One guy seen, he said he seen it switch
from sort of
a V shaped to a boomerang shape.
So you know, I don't I don't know that.
I know that's a little woo woo.
But there again, you know,
we've we've seen things
and we know that it's not, Yeah.
So whatever
happened in Phoenix in 97,
I would say that craft is most likely
what I seen.
It sounds very Pretty much the same.
Yeah.
Did your your colleagues there to see it.
Did they
you know have you guys talked about it.
Have they had
you know what do they think it is.
What do you think it did.
I mean
that was going to be my next question.
What do you think it is.
I think
you maybe haven't fully answered that.
You said it was like another one.
But but did they have
an opinion of what they saw?
Have you
kept in touch with them about it or.
No, we haven't we haven't kept in touch.
You know,
we've we've all gone a for, As you know,
you depart military life
and you enter the civilian world and,
I get it. yeah.
So we haven't kept in touch
about it, but,
at the time,
there was no doubt that,
we thought we had seen a UFO.
but we.
Yeah. Exactly what we thought. Well.
Since someone was going to ask it
in the comments, they know who they are.
Someone asked,
why didn't you take a picture of it?
Do you have an answer for that?
There is no camera access
inside of the restricted area.
Okay.
And,
you know, had I even
it wasn't even top of mind.
I mean, you know,
you're you're seeing something
undescribed. Incredible.
Something you've never seen before
or since. And.
Let me get bombarded by
notifications all. The time.
Yeah, yeah.
and at the time
also this was back in 2008. Yeah.
So camera phones weren't the best,
you know,
they weren't at the quality
that they have now.
So I don't know that the
the picture would have been any good
if I was able to achieve that picture.
Anyways.
I don't know that I would
have been able to.
you know, I feel like I.
Realized I just glossed over.
So could you give us
do you know the precise date of this?
do not know the precise date.
It was spring of zero eight
Yeah, the summer of oh Okay. Not.
I'm not exactly sure on the date or or
specifically the month, even.
Do you recall the time
ish?
Even.
It was night
time, we were Delta flight,
so we were night flight.
This would have been
a couple hours into shift.
So we it, you know,
this would have been 9 or 10 p.m., Okay.
Yeah. Okay.
Well, I guess back back to it.
You know, you said you think it's a UAP.
What? What do you.
What's that actually mean to you?
I'm not exactly sure, Ryan.
I'm. I'm not.
totally convinced what?
I'm what a UAP is.
I don't
I don't know
if they originate from outside of
this planet
or if they originate from this planet.
If, if perhaps it's a,
you know,
I go a lot of different ways on this.
I'm not sure I come to
any sort of a conclusion.
But, you know,
I can tell you what I seen was, was,
it didn't seem human,
you know what I'm saying?
What the. How so?
Not to say that we couldn't
design a craft and,
you know,
have some cloaking,
you know, ability and things like that.
I think that we could, you know,
and I think that perhaps we have,
you know,
I don't
know, but the size of the craft,
the way that it
moved, you know, it was it
a small
airplane, you know,
there's a steady flight,
you know, it's a steady movement.
It's it's,
you know, it's propelling itself
to a destination.
This, this had none of that.
It was just hovering through the air.
It was massive.
It was invisible.
I don't I don't know any technology
that we currently have or at the time,
that would replicate that.
you know.
Again, I'm
going to ask you some questions.
I think
you've already answered in some way.
But just to, like,
make the point clear, what?
You know, very large object,
moving very slowly.
What in your brain made
you think that this isn't something
that's inflated?
Perhaps.
That's a good question.
I would say the shape of it.
I've been overseas, and I, you know,
I've seen the, the big floating
surveillance blimps and, you know,
I've seen blimps fly.
And,
this didn't appear to be inflated at all.
It's,
you know, and again,
through night vision goggles,
I'm looking up.
It's, you know, nighttime.
It's hard to say for sure,
but what I can tell you
is this didn't resemble anything
that I have ever seen before or after.
even today,
I've still not seen anything that could,
you know, resemble this technology.
And presumably,
you know,
and I appreciate that you're answering
from your perspective
and not trying to speak for everyone,
but presumably with your
your colleague there seeing it,
quote unquote,
you know,
take off at the end
as he kind of watches it go out of sight.
That obviously wouldn't
it being an inflatable device.
You know,
I mean,
I assume you guys have a pretty wide
view of the sky where you are there?
Colorado.
I could be wrong,
but that's just my mental
image of Colorado. But.
So presumably,
you know,
if you watch this
and go off there to the northeast,
there's some space there and then, like,
tucked behind a building
or a mountain real quick. Right.
Probably would
have had some time,
but it seemed to have departed
relatively quickly as you described.
Is that. Fair.
clear. Wide open skies.
Yeah.
You know,
there's trees and stuff out there,
but there's the mountains are,
you know, off to the west and and,
no, there was no buildings
that it tucked behind or,
you know,
nothing obscured its view whatsoever.
Have you,
have you shared the, the story
or rapport with anyone else.
Yeah. I'm sure.
Yeah.
I've shared it
with friends and family
and and colleagues
and and stuff like that.
I'm not embarrassed about it whatsoever.
I mean, it's a matter of fact,
it happened.
What it is, I don't know, You know,
so I just like to tell people
I find it very interesting.
And I think others
would also find it interesting.
So, Yeah, I'm totally open, and I.
And I share it to
anybody I think may be interested.
what kind of reactions you get.
The typical I mean, what you
you know, a lot of times. well.
It's educator
audience, you know,
they might have
some different perspectives, but.
a lot of people don't believe me.
I think,
I mean,
I, you know,
I'm not a, I'm
not a mind reader,
but but I can kind of pick up on body
language and facial expression
So I tell when somebody like, I
yeah, this guy.
I've seen that face before.
Yeah, yeah. You know. So.
get a lot of that. Some people
totally believe it.
You know, they they're convinced that,
you know,
there is something else Going on.
And,
so it's a mixed bag again,
you know,
it's a little bit of a disbelief
and a, some, some other people that,
believe me.
Yeah.
She I just had a question,
but just it slipped out of my mind.
If you were to,
you know, knowing what you know now.
And maybe that's not a totally fair
question, but.
No, you know, now,
you know,
if you were back in
your own shoes before,
would you have reported that
through official channels?
100%. Yeah. Yeah.
immediately reported it.
Yeah. Right away. 100% hindsight is 2020.
I would have instantaneously reported it
and I would have, requested to
I would have been denied, I'm sure,
but I would
have requested more information.
Hey, what did we find out about that?
Hey, Yeah. What do we hear? So.
Is that what you would recommend?
Others that might be in your,
you know, your shoes today?
Yeah, absolutely.
Don't don't,
don't stray away from the criticism
and don't, don't,
you know,
think your superiors are going to judge
you for,
you know, for having an experience
like this.
It's, you know, you
again, hindsight is 2020.
I didn't do my job that night, right?
right?
I seen something, and I didn't report it.
And that's a security failure.
That's a big security failure.
Especially, considering the equipment
that we're guarding.
Yeah. So.
And when, when, when,
when it got to
that base,
that particular piece of equipment
that this craft flew over,
you know, we were
we were instructed and, you know, hey,
this is vital to national security.
You know, if somebody has a gun
held to your mom,
you shoot a hole through your mom
and you kill that guy.
You know, we
we got to have this piece of equipment.
It's vital.
So, Yeah, it was a security failure.
Happened that night, for sure.
By not reporting.
So I would absolutely encourage
anybody who has an experience
to go in and report it.
Thank you for saying that.
So yeah,
let's let's talk for a minute
about, your process
with Americans for Safe Aerospace.
So, how how do you.
I mean, I know you saw me on the hearing.
How did you find your website?
You just kind of see it pop up from.
I believe it was your second
appearance on JR, Okay.
and you encouraged
veterans and pilots, and,
you know,
anybody who had an experience
to come forward
with their story
and to go to the American Safe
Aerospace and report it.
And that's what I did. Cool.
Well you mind sharing the
how the experience worked out for you?
How that
what was that like, you know,
did you go to our website?
You email me like,
let's let's talk people through it
so they know how to do it too.
so I went I went to the website.
The reporting function is easy.
So, so I, I just typed out the report
and I submitted it,
as it happened, as I understood it,
and, and,
I was contacted back by case and
and case and asked
if I would be interested
in doing a teams call,
or FaceTime call or I think it's teams.
But anyway, asked
if we could do a call and and
and describe to him in person
the events.
And so I did that
I talked to case in
and you know,
him and I talked for a while
and I went through the, incident and.
We considered casing and intimidating.
Guy Cason is a very nice guy. Okay.
Nice guy.
understanding and he's he's a cool.
Dude experience
in Colorado Springs, in fact,
which made me feel way more comfortable.
Yeah.
So yeah, Cason was great.
He was great. And,
so, so after that,
and I think in that interview,
he, he had mentioned that,
you guys were working with
the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
and he he said, hey,
you know, your case is a lot dated.
We're working on some,
some more recent things.
I don't know
if they're going to be interested.
If they are interested,
would you be willing to talk to the FBI?
And I told him. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So how would you find, you know,
I have to go into great detail,
I suppose, but,
how did you find your interactions
with the FBI in that process?
Yeah, it was very pleasant.
It wasn't intimidating.
You know,
they they don't
make you feel like a weirdo,
you know, like you're some crazy loon.
Tell them some story.
And and, it's very accommodating.
You guys have been
extremely accommodating,
but the FBI part of it was,
you know, same as it was with case.
And I just explained to them
the incident as I had private
previously with Cason
and previously as I had reported it, and
it was just a short, maybe
30 minute, 45 minute interview, I think.
And, and,
and they said, hey,
thanks for the information and,
let us do our thing with this.
So yeah, that's kind of how it went.
But, you know,
it got reported to the appropriate
parties, got escalated to the
to the right investigative body.
So, Good to overall positive experience
with that. Yeah. Okay. Well, good. Yeah.
You know,
not always have people
who have seen something in reported it.
You know,
there's a lot of different websites
out there
where you can submit a report like this.
But for me,
as an operator, at least,
former operator,
you know, it's important to me,
you know, just,
you know,
see something, detect a problem
and then admire it,
you know, for 12 months
or dropping in a database,
it has to be actioned, right.
And the the risk, mitigated,
you know, to the best degree
that you can,
you know,
what are you really doing
other than Meiring? It.
So, you know,
as I understand it, the FBI has,
both the authorities and the resources
and the skill sets
to properly investigate
some of these cases and, my,
my interactions with them
and the interviews
I've said on have a very positive.
So I'm glad. Glad you found it the same.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was an overall
very positive experience.
Not intimidating whatsoever.
And, you know, they're not
they're not going to
they're not going to discredit
the information that you're giving them.
They're going to take it.
They're going to investigate it,
compare it to other data, I'm sure.
And, you know,
that's the proper investigative body
to handle it. Yeah.
And just just to be clear,
you didn't feel like
you were being investigated
or anything like that. Yeah. And that's.
Yeah. Not the intent, of course. Yeah.
And I know some people are skeptical,
you know,
relaying information like that,
especially to
the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
And and I was to
I'm not going to sit here
and say, like, I,
I never for a second, you know,
had any hesitation.
I did slightly I mean, I don't know,
at the end of the day.
What direction this is going to go.
And maybe, maybe I'm
telling secrets
that I shouldn't be telling, you know,
and and At least you're telling
to the right body, right?
So in a controlled manner. Yeah.
Totally positive experience.
And I Again, I would suggest,
you know,
everybody report
go to Americans for Safe Aerospace,
submit your report Thank you.
what happens.
It's you know, it's
I I think people have some hesitation
when they hear, you know, FBI.
I think it makes a lot of sense to me
to distrust essentially the institutions.
You never really want to trust
the government
institution, per se,
but it doesn't mean
that there's not trustworthy
and good people that are operating
within those institutions.
And they could be found, in my opinion.
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
And I, I would agree with that sentiment.
I think, you're right to be skeptical.
You know,
I think, you probably shouldn't
trust the government,
you know, with everything.
I don't trust the DoD,
but I trust a lot of people
within the DoD. Right. I work with.
Doing a lot of good work.
Yeah.
You know, for the right reasons.
It's not all bad.
So, Yeah,
I think it's the the citizens
responsibility to hold their,
you know, institutions to account,
not to simply blindly trust
that they're doing
the best thing for them.
But that's me personally.
Have you had any other
exciting your experiences in. Your life?
I have not.
Did you hear any other people
while you were in service
share any experiences
they might have had? No.
Pretty tight lipped.
Pretty tight lipped.
Yeah.
And and, you know, I just
maybe I just didn't encounter
the right person that had seen something,
you know, but.
2008 pretty early for this conversation.
I mean, that's very early.
It was still taboo at Oh, 100%.
It was very taboo. Yeah. 100%.
You make an interesting point,
and it's something that I keep hearing
from people over
and over again
about how you're like, hey,
don't worry about what people are going
to, to
to think about you and things like that.
Obviously, I have my concerns
coming forward about what we saw
and had the same concerns and still,
you know, assumptions about how,
you know,
my former colleagues and others would
perceive what I had to say.
But my experience has been, you know,
very positive in the sense that one,
this is something
I think that happens to a lot of people.
There's a lot of people carrying
around these types of stories with them,
and they're just unwilling to share.
And so by coming forward,
you're really kind of like
unlocking the whole group of people
that have something interesting
to talk about
and have been holding it back.
And I, I've seen it over and over again.
There was a, a state legislator
who I was advising on legislation on the
topic.
And our first meeting,
you could tell
he was super nervous about the idea of,
you know, supporting legislation
that was UAP related.
What is that going to do
to his reputation?
Am I going to have a bunch of weirdos
reaching out to me now? Maybe a couple?
But, you know,
he had this big fear that's like,
you know,
the the
beginning of the downward social,
you know, spiral. And,
But even.
Even even that being the case,
you know,
he did end up
pushing the legislation forward.
And then we met about a,
you know, a week
after the legislation came out
and he had,
you know, big look of relief on his face,
more or less.
And he was just like.
He's like.
I.
He's like people
I've been working with for like 20,
30 years,
you know, across the desk in this town
that, you know, been
I've hung out with their children,
their grandchildren and,
you know, gone over for Thanksgiving,
you know, came to me
after I brought this legislation out
and like, thank you.
And here's
my experience with this, right.
People that have been holding that on,
that he wasn't even aware of it.
And he's like,
this has just been a total enhancement.
You know,
it's like incredible
to see the support from,
you know, from chiefs of police to,
you know,
legislative people
on the other side of the aisle to just,
you know,
clerks in the office
were very supportive and,
you know, and ultimately,
the effect was the opposite
of what he was fearing,
you know, and that's
I think that's been my experience.
And I think that's
that's most people experience.
It's our own our own fear.
You know,
people talk about the stigma,
the stigma
as if it's this, you know,
weird shadow
that's lurking behind every door,
but it's in your own
mind at the end of the day.
And I think the thought of it is scarier
than the reality of it.
That's been my experience.
yeah. And I think you're right. I think,
you know,
especially thanks to guys like,
you mean, I,
I feel like you've really opened
the door,
you know, for, for guys like me,
to, to for me,
it would have just been an experience
that I had, and I would have,
I would have told
whoever was interested in it,
and that's where I would have left it,
but thanks to
guys like you and true professionals
with experiences, Thank you.
that's a more credible witness,
you know, and people
can take you more seriously,
and then that can open the door
for other people
who also had experiences,
legitimate Yeah.
and who
maybe don't have quite the resume as a
to, to be taken
that's very important.
The strength and strength of numbers.
You know, this is
well at this point, you know,
this will be outdated
by the time it comes out.
But you know,
we have ten episodes out right now.
We I've said it
before we started the podcast.
If we if we started up, I guarantee
we're going to get a flood of reports,
because the more people
are willing to share,
the more that people hear,
the more willing
they are to
share their own similar stories,
something that they saw that matches
what you saw
or someone that saw something similar,
you know,
on the same base or in the same area.
And they will come out
and they have come out.
The first 15 days of October
received about 70 reports
that Americans for Safe Aerospace.
Every time we publish more
and more and more.
It's it's been incredible, you know,
not just.
Hey, I saw our light in the sky, but,
you know, very detailed reports
from credible people like yourself.
And it's, you know, it's a cycle now.
It's a it's a loop.
It's a it's a scaling process.
Now, the more conversation
we have, the more that they're available
for us to have.
And I think it'll grow and grow.
You're compiling data as well, right?
Of course. Of course. Right.
So yeah, it provides us more data.
But you know what happens
when there's a thousand conversations
like this on the channel?
How many again, with strength
the numbers of people come forward.
I think it'll be more
and more normalized.
And I think the picture
will reveal itself,
you know, through that,
through that process,
and we'll all have
a better understanding of it to the point
maybe when it just seems obvious,
you know, or even a normal in some way.
exactly right.
And I think that's the direction
that we're heading in. I think so too.
Well, Logan, I this was fascinating.
I thank you for coming down
to talk about this,
for being one more person.
An early person
to be willing to stand up
and and share your experience.
And I would love to keep in touch.
I, like I said,
I guarantee you will have others
that will come forward
to share similar experiences
that you had.
Anything else you'd like to discuss?
No, I don't think so.
I just want to say it was my pleasure.
And thank you so much for having me.
Awesome. No, it was our pleasure.
Thank you.
And thanks to our listeners.
Again, we cannot do this
without your support.
So please subscribe to the channel.
Like the channel.
And we have a lot
more fascinating stories to bring you.
Thanks. Thanks, Logan. Thank you.