This is the Executive Connect Podcast - a show for the new generation of leaders. Join us as we discover unconventional leadership strategies not traditionally associated with executive roles. Our guests include upper-level C-Suite executives charting new ways to grow their organizations, successful entrepreneurs changing the way the world does business, and experts and thought leaders from fields outside of Corporate America that can bring new insights into leadership, prosperity, and personal growth - all while connecting on a human level. No one has all the answers - but by building a community of open-minded and engaged leaders we hope to give you the tools you need to help you find your own path to success.
Melissa Aarskaug (00:00.817)
mental toughness.
Melissa Aarskaug (00:05.307)
you restarted, okay.
Melissa Aarskaug (00:13.525)
Welcome to the Executive Connect podcast. Today I'm excited to have Cheryl Klein with us here today to talk about mastering mental toughness and fearless female leadership. Cheryl is a mental toughness coach, certified high-performance coach and best-selling author. She's the CEO and founder of the Zone Labs. Welcome, Cheryl.
Sheryl Kline (00:41.186)
Thank you so much, Melissa. I'm really excited to be here.
Melissa Aarskaug (00:45.077)
I'm so excited to talk about fearless females. love it. And I'm excited to talk to you more about your book. Let's talk a little bit about what fearless females means and, and just kind of a couple insights about the book to get started.
Sheryl Kline (01:04.408)
Well, thanks so much for asking. This is what it's gonna look like. actually we're heading in a week and a half to Times Square. gonna be, got invited to a billboard event. So I don't know, that'll be a crazy experience. But really it's more philosophical rather than talking about the proven process and framework that's in the book. I thought I'd just answer your question by sharing a philosophy. And the philosophy is,
is that women have been in leadership since the beginning of time. Literally 30,000 BCE women were worshiped as goddesses. And truth be told, a lot of times it was women of color that were worshiped as goddesses. And so at some point the patriarchy took over and I don't know, things went a little haywire. And so to say the least, and so whether you believe in God or source or you're an atheist,
or no matter what you believe in, if there's a like higher power somewhere, the women were meant to be in leadership. Okay, and we're a little off kilter in terms of what's happening in our companies, what's happening in our environment, we won't get political, what's the day before recording this, the day before the election. So it's very imperative and it's a very important time in our history for women's voices to be heard, valued, respected even more.
So I'm not talking about obliterating the patriarchy, but I'm talking about balancing the patriarchy so we can return to a homeostasis and honestly return back to peace and love and prosperity.
Melissa Aarskaug (02:43.625)
I love it. Can you share a little bit and maybe some key themes that readers will read about in the book?
Sheryl Kline (02:52.64)
Of course, well, the first one is that it's important to understand that women, if I can make this generalization, we have some roadblocks to be able to access our very highest sense of leadership. There are cultural, social, religious indoctrinations that make it very difficult for us to give ourselves permission and to feel worthy.
of having the voice and impact that we want and deserve. And so where the fearless female leadership framework starts is really on clarity. It's kind of like we're determining what is your legacy plan? What's next? And also it's really on being able to access where your gut meets your heart and then take action before your head gets in the way.
And this is really, would say two thirds of my framework is really born out of my two plus decades of work with world-class athletes and Olympians. As you know in a previous life, my background is applied sports psychology. I used to help the best athletes in the world get better quicker and then travel around with them and help them perform under pressure. And so now this book is really all about helping
female executives and now their teams to understand their highest sense of leadership, their highest sense of innovative ability, and their highest sense of impact in getting crystal clear on what's next for them, building the confidence to back it up, and then most recently become pretty well-versed in the last two to three years on FBI hostage negotiation. So the last part of the framework.
is about influence and how to influence up and gain buy-in from leadership.
Melissa Aarskaug (04:44.151)
I love it. That's so interesting all around. think the lack of clarity often baffles me and I think you're spot on. It's amazing, you know, hearing that people don't have plans or goals and so you're just kind of waffling and moving through life and you look back and you you're like I had all these goals and all these things I wanted to achieve and so I absolutely agree. I think clarity around whatever the direction is and then you know
learning what's holding you back. Like you said, the fears, doubts, your limiting beliefs.
Melissa Aarskaug (05:32.371)
corporate America today, there is, you know, we are athletes, right? We're also athletes. We're, you know, some of us are traveling around the globe. Some of us are working in different time zones. So it's really, you know, those mindsets, I think shifting just like you said with athletes. So can you kind of tie back what you teach to athletes to corporate executives? Is it the same strategy? it, did you look at it a little bit different?
Sheryl Kline (06:03.246)
No, I don't look at it different at all. whether, you know, whatever we are trying to do or whatever female executives are trying to do, it is their Olympics. And also since my one-on-one coaching is not available to everyone and there's only one of me, that's why I created the book and now an enterprise digital curriculum because learning how to influence up, whether you're an executive influencing your CEO and your board, because
Let's face it, influence does not happen in solitude and for us to have the impact and for female executives to have the impact they want and deserve is going to be imperative that they gain buy-in from those in power. But also it's teaching
early level, know, entry level, zero to five years or to 10 years directors or what have you, how to influence up as well, because we have this amazing new generation of leaders coming in. And according to the McKenzie report, however, it's problematic because the most broken rung are the individual contributors getting promoted to manager. So in other words, the beginning of that leadership pipeline is falling apart. And so that was really the impetus for
know, creating the book and the enterprise digital curriculum to help leaders to help their emerging female leaders because it's very problematic. That group is really going kind of backwards and our pipeline is really suffering. So in answer to your question that it's really not that different because world-class, what I've learned from working with Olympians for over two decades and high-level athletes is that nobody chooses them. They choose themselves.
And also the other thing is they're performing outside of themselves. They don't want to typically get a gold medal in the Olympics because of their ego or because it's really they're performing for another person, for a cause. That's why they dedicate so much time, energy, money, resources, and what have you. So.
Sheryl Kline (08:06.528)
it's really being able to, know, most people have read Simon Sinek's book, Start with Why, which is amazing, but there was just like a missing component in it. And part of my framework is also not just what's your why, but who's your who. You know, who are you fighting for? So in other words, for me, it was my mother. My mother never had a voice in our home. She never had a voice for what she was passionate about. It happened to be...
I mean, it wasn't in corporate, but she was kind of a wannabe conservationist. But she always heard in our home, like, you know, I actually remember my dad saying, you went in the front door and out the back door of UC Berkeley, like, who are you to save a species of owls? So that resounding message is you are not good enough. And, you know, I got that message in a different way growing up. That's why I wanted to crack the code on who gets to decide who's good enough.
And so it is very similar and that we get to decide who's good enough, but we are up against some barriers and some roadblocks that men are not up against. And so sometimes it's very important to possibly, if you can imagine what it would be like for female executives and emerging female leaders to have a few new world-class tools, a framework to follow and some support so they could access
you know, their very best because that is not the, they're actually generational indoctrinations. It's not just about us. It's about what we witnessed in our mothers and our grandmothers, our aunties, what we've read in the media, what have you that shapes our belief system and what we are worthy of, what we're capable of and that type of thing. So a lot of times it is really vital.
to have new resources to understand how to be world class, to gain clarity, to give permission, to feel worthiness, and to really understand that imposter syndrome is not a syndrome, it's not a disease, and we women don't have it.
Melissa Aarskaug (10:11.899)
I love that. It made me, when you were talking about athletes, kind of to tie it back to what you were saying, when I was running competitively, I always worked a plan. I always started with clarity around what the plan was, how I was doing it. And I knew what I was going for. So I think I love what you said about like correlating it to, you know,
to aspiring professionals or anybody that's looking to achieve anything, right? Really working your plan and then layering in, because none of the pro athletes work in a silo, right? They all have big teams of people helping them. They have nutrition coaches and doctors and really layering the strategies and people around whatever it is you're achieving.
I wanna talk a little bit about, I love kinda what you were saying about your mom, mental toughness. Do you feel like it's a skill that's taught or do you feel like it's a skill that you learned through kind of self-teaching it through going through difficult times or do you think people just show up with mental toughness in their lives?
Sheryl Kline (11:23.118)
Well, I would say most women are in a sense already mentally tough. Where, and I've changed my philosophy around this in the last decade or so. In my opinion, where women need to learn to be more mentally tough is when it comes to their self-compassion for themselves and their belief in themselves and their feelings of worthiness. And so,
mental toughness, acquiring mental toughness is similar to going to the gym. It requires some consistency, it really requires some support and some new tools, just like you can't go to the gym once and you have a six pack. Or in my case, I go to the gym every day, I still don't have a six pack, but I'm working on it. But anyways, when it comes to mental toughness,
Most women are already mentally tough because especially if they've gotten to the executive level, they have had to be mentally tough. And especially for women who are further marginalized within our gender, I just want to be very clear that there is a, it is different and it can be a lot more challenging. There is an emotional tax that comes with being further marginalized within our gender, which is a conversation for another day.
but it depends on a lot of things. But a big chunk of what it depends on is like how we were raised, what we witnessed, who believed in us, what if we were... So in my case, when I was 10, I was told I wasn't good enough to be in this small private school that I was in, in the San Francisco Bay area. And that was at very influential time in my life. And I took the whole school year.
to give up everything after school and work longer and harder, but I was so nervous that I had the information in my head. I couldn't get it down on the paper. So I had A's and B's, but I couldn't move those B's up. And so I was told after doing my best that I still wasn't good enough. So that cemented in my head that I wasn't good enough. And so being aware, I just bring that up because it's important to be aware of
Sheryl Kline (13:46.356)
experiences and people that we are exposed to when we're at a very formidable time in our life. So it can be good or bad. So in my case, it was bad, but I've learned to be grateful because it was really a springboard. And so it can be learned. And a lot of times women are very mentally tough, but sometimes
what's important to be aware of, and I'm saying this with love, is that sometimes mental toughness tips over and it becomes problematic because sometimes women can be perceived as angry or bitchy. I don't know if we're allowed to say that on your show, that, and so it's very important to understand that what gets you to a certain level won't get you to the next level.
And so in answer to your question, it can be learned. It's also very important to get clear on where you are, you know, and also where you are and where you want to go, what's worked getting you to your certain point where you are, excuse me, where you want to go and what new skills and support you'll need going forward.
Melissa Aarskaug (15:09.16)
That's great. I love it. I do think that resonates with a lot of women because you're either too soft or too tough. There's kind of how do you be all the right things at any given time? So I've definitely been in those shoes myself. I want to talk a little bit about zoned in, the mental toughness required for a world class you and maybe some insights that the listeners can find in that book.
Sheryl Kline (15:37.612)
Yeah, well, that is my first book. And the, would say that there was a different framework in that book that's in my current book. So Zoned In was really around the clarity piece and the building confidence piece. And so it might be helpful maybe to tell a little bit about the difference between the two books. And so the second one, well, this one, Fearless Female Leadership, it really,
has refined some of the tools and zoned in, which came out, I think, 2018. And so this one, it's really being able to refine. And this is after working a handful more years with female executives, understanding what their joys, triumphs, and challenges are in their role as they're thinking about the impact that they want to have in the role, and then also thinking through the what's next. And so the main difference
within the two is that in the current book, like I said, is has to wrap in the influence piece because in order for us that the reality is, is that it's mostly men that are still in power. And also too, we need to get buy-in and in order for us to have the impact we want and deserve and whether we're looking to gain buy-in from men or women on
boards or for our CEOs, it's very important to lead with something that I call strategic based empathy. And in order for us to be highly empathetic, you know, we have to first be empathetic and compassionate with ourselves. And it really debunks what we're talking about, and really helps us overcome that hurdle of coming off as being, you know,
excuse me, angry or seeming bitchy or what have you because strategic based empathy means you put yourself in the other person's shoes. it's not necessarily for them because it's very important to understand the psychology behind why this is important. One of our most basic human biological needs is safety. And if we don't feel safe, then we're less likely
Sheryl Kline (18:01.218)
to stand with you, we're less likely to say yes or to join you in your cause or say yes to an ask. And so in order for us to make other people feel safe, it's very important there's a runway that we have to create before we make an ask, whether it's a salary or a salary package negotiation, whether we have an innovative idea.
that we wanna push through and we wanna gain buy-in from our leader or what have you. There is a runway that a lot of people omit. They either don't do it very well or they don't know how to do it and they're not mindful of their tone, their cadence, their gestures, all of these things. Because as a sidebar, when we're communicating, it's only about 7 % of what's being heard by another person that is interpreted.
What else really gets baked in and helps them understand us and forms their opinions has to do with our tone, our gestures, our body language, and even the cadence of our words. And I will tell you that most women lose influence because of two main reasons. One of them is that we talk too much.
too much, too quickly, and we tend to, like we gain buy-in, but then we steamroll it. And a lot of times when we're speaking too much, it dilutes our message. The other reason is sometimes that we end our asks on an ascension. Like, this is my experience, this is what I've accomplished, this is how I prove myself, the salary package that I'm comfortable with.
is between this and this, what do you think? And it just negates everything that they're talking about. And so it's very important to understand what an ascension in tone means, what a descension in tone means, because whether the other person that we're communicating with, whether they understand it consciously or subconsciously, our non-verbal communication,
Sheryl Kline (20:24.928)
is going to have a huge impact of whether we gain buy-in or get paid what we're worth.
Melissa Aarskaug (20:31.877)
Yeah, I that was great. I definitely agree. You know, you kind of talked a little bit about it. Having experienced being a hostage negotiator, I hear a lot from women right now, they feel like they're constantly under pressure, not only in their day job, but then they go home and they have children or aging parents. So they feel like so much of their life, they're under pressure, stress out, and they're trying to kind of juggle all the balls in the air. And so
So I want to talk a little bit about maybe some tips for these type of women that and how they can really develop the mental agility to, like you said at the beginning, clarify what their goals are and really focus on them despite having to, you know, be in executive roles, raising kids, getting them here and raising, you know, or helping with their aging parents or any kind of tips that you can share about that.
Sheryl Kline (21:31.47)
Yeah, that is a great question. And I would say that first of all, you are 100 % Wonder Woman and all that you do. And it comes back to, we keep coming back to feelings of worthiness. So, and a lot of times I'm not just talking about pushing initiatives through, making a lot of money, convincing the board to go a certain direction.
It also has to do, and I think this is one of the things that in my experience, working with a few dozen female executives, it's permission and worthiness of taking care of self, doing nothing, going on a trip by yourself, and really, and also it comes back to clarity. What do I need so I can keep showing up for my family, for my parents, and my role?
And so it all really comes back to clarity and all really comes back to legacy planning. It's really a holistic approach to what is a sustainable way that female executives and their teams can continue on beyond the standard norm and really look at the three different buckets in their lives. Of course, career kind of naturally bubbles to the top because that's what I speak about a lot.
but also when it comes to relationships and wellness. In other words, one other thing that I would say if anyone listening wants some homework is think about one girlfriend that you've been meaning to get together with that you haven't seen for enough time and you're like, my God, I have to go see her and we just text each other and nope, get that on the calendar in the next six months. Because I will tell you my very best friend,
who I'm not going to say her name, but she has lobular breast cancer. And it's not guaranteed that the people that we care about and love the most are going to be around forever. So it's really, like I said, a holistic approach. are very passionate about helping women have a bigger voice at the table with their CEOs and their boards and even the emerging leaders with their leadership. But all of this entire fearless female leadership framework can be applied
Sheryl Kline (23:52.302)
to the other two buckets in your life. And those two buckets are relationships and wellness. And so it's a matter of getting clear on, so in my, what do I need for my friendships? Who is most important to me to spend time with, whether it's a family member or a friend. And then also for wellness, I go away once a year by myself for like three days, a long weekend. And I hear so many people say, well, that's weird.
That's like weird. I'm like, okay, you can have an opinion that it's weird. But you know, my husband's like, yeah, just go what you need. You're a lot nicer person. You know, when you go back, just what I need. And so in answer to your question, it all goes back to clarity, getting clarity on what you need and then giving yourself permission to do it and then get it in the calendar.
Melissa Aarskaug (24:46.108)
Yeah, I think there's something that I want to just comment on. You have a really great point with getting away. I think sometimes the best clarity I've had in my life on a decision I'm looking to make is when I go away either by myself or I go away with girlfriends and I have that downtime where I'm not, you
full attack mode on whatever I'm doing. And so I think you're spot on with taking time to slow your pace down, going away, setting some new intentions, some new goals. It's super important to continue. can't just be giving and giving from an empty cup. We really need to fill our cup up. And just like you said, it starts with, you know, taking care of ourself and all the ways that you already mentioned. So I love that you mentioned that.
I wanna talk a little bit about your personal story. I know you touched a little bit on it. You've been able to transition from sports psychology to becoming really a sought after female coach and leader and an author and all these things and really talk about some of the challenges you face that have shaped your leadership philosophy and really got you to where you are today.
Sheryl Kline (26:03.086)
Well, that's a great question. And some of it, be honest, if you want me to be totally transparent, has been fluid. So in other words, I haven't known all of it for years and years and years. So I started off when I switched from working with world-class athletes, so honestly working with teens and young adults, I thought, you know, who gets to decide who's good enough? And it was for me, you know, I wanted to work with female executives because I wanted them
to know and to have a bigger impact and a bigger voice. And I used to think that my purpose and my why was because no one ever told me that I was good enough. And then I was thinking then my story really evolved too about my mother who was passionate about owls and a certain species of owls. And she passed away very young at the age of 69.
And then within like three to six months, that species of owls went extinct. And so I was like, okay, so it's really important near to my heart that women's voices need to be heard, that the powers that be, whatever you believe in, really have placed a special gift within each and every one of us. And then more recently, you know, I was reflecting the last couple of years of my grandmother.
who was born and raised in San Francisco and was going to public schools in San Francisco. And she got pulled out of school at 14 and her teachers and she begged that she wouldn't get pulled out of school by my grandfather because she loved learning. She loved business and economics. But he pulled her out to work in his family business, which was Golden Gate Steel. They were responsible for rebuilding a lot of San Francisco after the earthquake. And so...
She would study then study on her own, study business, study economics, and she would knock on his door and like try and tell him, say, you know, I've been learning and to save some of these people's jobs or to build a bigger workforce so more people can work and help their families. You know, I have ideas. And she would say, you know, Esther, go do what you were hired to do. Your brothers went to Stanford. They'll they know.
Sheryl Kline (28:26.112)
and you don't. So, you of course she got pulled out to not have an education and her brothers got sent to Stanford. So we'll talk more about that in another episode. And then, so then even a couple years later, she says, I've been really studying economics and trends and forecasting, and it seems like the economy shifting. We should really go into, she was trying to say diversify, but I don't think she had that terminology, but she was saying, I think we need to get.
Melissa Aarskaug (28:32.497)
Hmm.
Sheryl Kline (28:54.634)
and do different things in the business. know, of course she said, Esther, you're hired for something, go back to doing what you were doing, your brothers will advise me. And so eventually a couple years later came the Great Depression. And so would things in Golden Gate Steel, would they have been different if my grandmother was allowed an education, if my grandfather would have listened to her?
Melissa Aarskaug (29:09.193)
Hmm.
Sheryl Kline (29:20.512)
I don't know, but I choose to say yes. She had a couple very valid ideas, very valid hypotheses and was very passionate about people and about diversifying the business. And so I really come from myself, my mother and my grandmother getting very clear messages that you don't matter when it comes to certain things and that your voice doesn't matter and that you're not good enough to have an impact.
And I also look at the impact on the world. You know, I just decided that was stopping with me. But the impact that it had on the world that, you know, a species of animals extinct by eventually my family's business, Golden Gate Steel, went extinct, you know, as well got sold. And so I just really passionate and the belief and more of a philosophical belief that it's time for women.
to return to leadership. And I really believe that our future depends on it.
Melissa Aarskaug (30:25.135)
Yeah, and I think, you know, with my circle of executive women, I think there's a lot of uncertainty for them. Do I stay at this job that I've been at for a while? I feel like I want to start my own thing. You know, I've done all the things I can do it, but just really trusting their gut and jumping and it just kind of from knowing you and what you've shared, I think a lot of it too is
you know, trusting your gut and the toughness to take a chance. And then if things don't work out, making and making another choice and another, you know, taking another direction. Cause as we both know, nothing is linear, right? It's always changing. And so I think just kind of enclosing just any final thoughts for those women that are kind of, I would say, trying to figure out what's next. Do I start a company? Do I stay?
Any kind of closing thoughts for them before we finish?
Sheryl Kline (31:24.962)
Yeah, well, I mean, that's why we've been talking, you know, why I'm creating the fearless female leader table of 12, like an executive peer advisory. It is definitely scary, but it just is gonna take some new tools, new support. And it's important to really listen to your gut and listen to your heart and start penciling things down before your head gets in the way. And so...
My biggest homework to everyone listening, especially if they're in this kind of place where you're describing is to take a pause, take some time off, set some strict boundaries around that time. In other words, who can access you and how. I've been known to like, we just got back from a week in Mexico, two hours from the pause, it was very remote.
So basically the owner of the property, he has my phone number and I'm like, okay, if somebody is bleeding or clients have a 911, come get me. Otherwise, there's really no contact. just put, it doesn't have to be that extreme, but putting some boundaries, you know, around that. there is, the good news is, is that there's tools in a process, which, you know, I'm glad to share another time, but the first thing that people can do is to really create some white space.
and to calm your mind, whether it's through like a meditation or I call them vision quest walks, where you're just walking and observing and you come back and take some inventory on what comes to you and just some just time, some white space and really taking inventory what comes to you without judgment and then start connecting the dots. That's a good place to start.
Melissa Aarskaug (33:18.611)
I love that. I recently have found some old books that I had set some goals back in like 2000, 24 years ago. And I opened those vision boards, goal setting, and I didn't really, it didn't occur to me to like look at it, but I opened it and I kind of opened to a page. It's interesting when you look back and if you keep those goals and intentions and not judge them,
you know, at the time I was living in Nevada and I had a picture in this vision book of a specific type of home. And unbeknownst to me, that type of rock didn't wasn't built and used in Nevada, but it was in Texas. And here I am in 2024 now living in Texas. So I think it's so interesting when you just write and clear your mind and not overthink it and just process and, you know,
Who knows, right? If you would have told me 24 years ago I'd be living in Texas, I would have told you, yeah, right, no way. But here I am. And so I love what you said. think just clearing your mind, letting things just pen and paper it out, or putting pictures or printing pictures, and just kind of seeing where things go. I love that you mentioned that. I absolutely agree, Cheryl.
kind of enclosing any final thoughts or anything that you want to leave with our listeners that we didn't touch today.
Sheryl Kline (34:48.386)
Yeah, I would just say, you know, to ask yourself the question. And now it's gonna, it's gonna seem a little strange, but not asking yourself. But if you were being advised, you know, by your best friend, and your best friend was telling you what would be the absolute best thing that you could do for yourself.
and what do you need right now. And then really then giving yourself permission, having some social accountability, like sharing with someone like this is crazy, but I'm taking a four day long weekend or this is crazy, but I'm gonna go to Portugal for a week by myself or this is crazy. Just like giving yourself that third party advice of...
of just saying, know, I think, you know, if you were to ask a best friend and tell them what you're going through right now, and you asked your best friend, what do you think I should do right now? And just really think about what your most confident best friend who really cares about you would tell you to do, or the highest version of yourself would tell you to do, and then do it.
Melissa Aarskaug (36:11.365)
I love it. That is fabulous. I am so happy to leave it at that. Thank you so much for being here today, Cheryl. I know how busy you are with your books and your business and all the things that you have going on. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and your time. Connect with Cheryl, get her book, subscribe to everything she does in her podcast. And that's the Executive Connect podcast.