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Join Talisman, an award-winning, full-service agency igniting memorable partnerships & collaborations across sports, entertainment & web3 where they host industry leaders to unapologetically deconstruct the business of sports.
Welcome to the Playbook podcast by Talisman. We recently hosted our first live Playbook Conversations panel discussion in New York City where we sat down with industry leader Rachel, NBA alum turned former CEO of the Drone Racing League for a masterclass in building long tail sports into mainstream properties. In this episode, Rachel breaks down how to find and grow Gen Z audiences with digital first strategy, convert purpose into sponsorship value, and make smart sustainable bets in women's sports. Plus why career pivots and betting on yourself are the ultimate growth place.
Tom Fox:So I have the pleasure of introducing a dear old friend. I have no notes. I'm not reading the bio you provided. It's no need. I was fortunate enough to work at the NBA early in my career and overlap with this rock star.
Tom Fox:I was there for three years, she was there for twenty one. Maybe the best compliment I can pay her is that the man in charge, David Stern, who was a legend, took a very special interest in your career and I think was responsible in some ways for launching you out of there to go do more interesting things. But we overlapped for a few years and I'm really glad to be able to do this because it put us back in touch and we can share some old great stories and it's great to see you. The only bio she needs is just the word badass. She left the the NBA after twenty one years.
Tom Fox:I know had another experience in between, but most recently took over the role of CEO at Drone Racing and grew that into an amazing property which she just managed into a sale. And we've got a really rare opportunity here. We've got a woman who's very very successful in the industry and sports, so we can talk a little bit about the industry and about the growth of women's sports which we started to talk about. But one of the trends in the in the industry is this concept of these long tail sports. I mean, we worked at one of the biggest sports leagues in the world.
Tom Fox:David used to say, if you're number two everywhere, you're probably number one. And to go from that into what people would have referred to as the long tail and to have made it as successful, I think is a great a great opportunity for us to learn how you did that and what that was all about. So welcome. Really glad to have you here.
Rachel Jacobson:I'm so glad to be back. I'm so glad to be back in touch. I mean, my agent over here.
Tom Fox:Rock rock star. So let's talk long tail stuff first. So you leave this incredible career at the NBA and you get a call. And I know David was the one who sort of pushed you into drone racing. Talk about that move because that's not a traditional typical move for you to make.
Tom Fox:So talk about how you made that, what you learned in it.
Rachel Jacobson:Yeah. There were there were a lot of head scratchers around that. So I had, as as Tom said, spent twenty one years at the NBA. I only knew that. I was academy trained.
Rachel Jacobson:I worked with amazing executives and visionary leaders. So I saw the world in my echo chamber, how the NBA ran their business, which was pretty damn successful. But then, interestingly, I found myself after twenty one years having almost outsized ambition of I wanted a world domination opportunity, and it's almost like you outgrow the environment that you live in as wonderful as it is. So as Tom said, I left as a free agent. I did something very entrepreneurial in areas that I am passionate about, investing in women and diverse groups to build high performing cultures, which has always been core to my DNA.
Rachel Jacobson:So I was three years out of sports humming along. And the 2019, David and I, every couple of months, had gotten together, you know, to check-in. He was investing in a ton of technology driven sports, you name it, videos, a lot around the games. And we were just catching up, and he reminded me that he had trained me to now disrupt and innovate. And we had this whole philosophical conversation about going back to sports, figure out what's there that was going to really stimulate me.
Rachel Jacobson:And I felt like me entering the building, well, this was pre COVID. I'll get to that in a minute, would be the, like, blitz scale moment, you know, that this property or team or something needed. And, unfortunately, the the part of that story is that was the 2019. If you were a David Stern friend, you know, or followed that, he then got sick and actually passed away on January 1. And I went home that night, and I told my children, what do you all think about drones?
Rachel Jacobson:Now we're giant season ticket holders at the Jacobson family. Their mom worked for the NBA and WNBA for twenty years. Like, we're pretty well versed in sports. The kids said, cool, which I think we'll get to about a lot of the the sports landscape right now. Like, there are properties with all the money in the world.
Rachel Jacobson:I I still don't think they'll be successful. And then there are other properties with negativity, and you may not be able to rebound from the negativity. And then there was drone racing. And I was like, you know what? This is the best thing not enough people know about and put me in coach.
Rachel Jacobson:I am here with the megaphone and the pom poms. I know how to do the commercial sponsorships. I know how to get marketing and PR. I know how to get, like, investors really excited having worked at the NBA and seen ownership come in. So I just felt like I knew the place to run.
Rachel Jacobson:I'm gonna bring in my team, and we're gonna, like, rocket ship, you know, as you all talk about. I have ideas for volleyball, by the way, that we're just gonna, like, run these plays, and I'm gonna have all the confidence and conviction and never see people at that we talked about, like, the teenager when you were doing the interview before, and it was, like, those messy adult adolescent years. I, like, told these young kids that were around the office. I'm like, put on a leather jacket. Get show ready.
Rachel Jacobson:Have all the confidence and conviction. I was, like, giving them their pep talk. I'm like, fake it till you make it because, like, we are going to be Gen Z's favorite sport, and then we just owned it.
Tom Fox:I love that the NBA model can be used in a sport like that because everybody else copied it. Let's be honest. David was sort of the visionary. What else was going on in the marketplace that allows something like the Drone Racing League to find an audience? I've got my son here, you know, he'll tell you he's a hockey fan.
Tom Fox:Does he watch a full hockey game? No. Does he watch highlights only, Right? It's so something else happening when you're taking this job five years ago with the dynamics of the audience you're trying to attract. They're not sitting in front of the television watching linear programming.
Tom Fox:And so it isn't just technology, it's also that it's made for a certain different type of media. So talk about how it finds its audience because that that to me is part of the story about the long tail. It's his generation demanding a different experience than, you know, three hours of something or more if it's the NFL filled with commercial. So talk about how you found your audience.
Rachel Jacobson:Yeah. I mean, that was the first thing I did was, like, before I touched anything or made any moves, I got the data. I'm like, woah. So I did the research, and what I found out, interestingly enough, was when they started to get into the weeds on, like, the duplication of the audience, yes, it was young. Yes, it was male.
Rachel Jacobson:But 70% of the audience didn't follow traditional stick and ball sports. So I crystallized that point, and I then quickly went to market with, this is a 100% of your future audience. I've got a younger audience. Like, they have not made decisions on what cars to buy when they're successful, what insurance, what beard or drink. Like, none of that.
Rachel Jacobson:I'm like, this is fertile ground. It's a young generation that loves these pieces, ingredients that I have, and it was a TikTok generation. So then I'm like, okay. The content needs to be driven by the platforms that, again, generational audiences, are gravitating towards. I'm hiring a 21 year old that's on the platforms, and I'm like, what do you think Kyle is cool?
Rachel Jacobson:Like, what are you tuning into? I mean, I'm sure I was scrappy, but we were professional, you know, when we went to Google and T Mobile and all those others. But, like, back at the farm when we're on 27th Street, like, engineers building drones, you know, a a very young talent base that I was able to coach up over here, but they had the mindset. And I didn't want to change to what I found attractive. I massively leaned into, you are smarter than me.
Rachel Jacobson:You're going to be better than me at these areas, and let's build a culture that really then could execute against who that target consumer was.
Tom Fox:You you also didn't have an installed sort of legacy media base that you're dealing with. A lot of the leagues now are are faced with this idea that because that audience shifting and their consumption is shifting, you know, Major League Baseball is looking at a rights deal that unless they package it completely different on a on a like for like basis, might be the first professional deal that goes down. Right? So you're able to build your media strategy perfectly fit for that audience instead of saying, alright, I've already got this legacy thing here. How do I move it into digital?
Tom Fox:You're digital first.
Rachel Jacobson:Exactly. So like media rights, when you are building the next mainstream sport, the media money will come. If you can't show the engagement and the audience so I didn't care if I was gonna, like, be able to show on the p and l that you name whatever broadcast partner, paint the drone racing league a rights fee. I'm like, I don't need that headline because when you put me behind a paywall, I'll never get the audience. So for me, it was, let's wide like, I came up with terms.
Rachel Jacobson:Let's widescreen this. What does that mean? Offer up your content free everywhere. So because we were able to do, like, that type of programming, social digital first, I built the audience to scale. And then the sponsors that are, like, mostly wired sometimes to wanna know how big is your audience.
Rachel Jacobson:Well, we went from 500,000 to 5,400,000 on TikTok in twelve months. And winning all of these awards. I'm like, I can win at this game. I can win at the numbers game now, but I have the stickiness of the audience. I've put drone racing on the map where if you're Google, you're like, I have an NBA partnership.
Rachel Jacobson:I'm doing something with MLB. I'm global in nature. I'm like, I can embed your technology in my sport. They're not putting you in the engine. I am putting your technology in the drones.
Rachel Jacobson:So that was a little bit of the the, like, messaging of go to market. If they looked at some of the numbers, they weren't as pretty. Like, the linear eyeballs, I didn't care. But I showed them all the other stuff is, Google, if you wanna show off or T Mobile, you wanna show off, nobody knows what five g means. Does anyone know what five g means?
Rachel Jacobson:No. It's invisible. I'm like, but we embedded five g in a pink magenta drone, and we flew it at our races, and we built all this content. So the authentic storytelling took the place of, like, the linear TV.
Tom Fox:Yeah. And you you're I read, I think, in one of the things, your total audience engagement is, a 100,000,000 at one point, not linear, but you've talked about is it your social media following?
Rachel Jacobson:Yeah. I mean, we are a 100,000,000 fans Fans. And globally. Like, 350
Tom Fox:Now is that a real a of people say that. Right? Is that is that a real number?
Rachel Jacobson:No. It's it's it's a real number. Oh, I you know? It's a real number. Like, it's it's actually unbelievable.
Rachel Jacobson:Like, I because I put myself out there and I was not going to lose, I would be all over the world, and they'd be like, wait. She's the drone queen. Like, the like, I just adopted it because it was it was a little off putting for people. It was like women in sports, there are more women executives in sports, but still not as many as the other gender. Then you couple in technology.
Rachel Jacobson:There's not as many women in technology. And then you put the global scope, and there's like I was checking a lot of boxes there, and I think there were a lot of people rooting for the success because the young girls that I would talk to specifically that love technology but felt it was nerdy saw me show up in bright pink and sparkle, and I'm like, you could do this. Like, you could be whatever you wanna be. So that US Air Force deal that used to be, like, really, like, you're fighting for your country, I turned it into, okay. Let's level the playing field and think about aviation as a career.
Rachel Jacobson:For men or women, you know, young girls or young boys, it happened to be the uptick was a lot of young girls that really looked at this as, like, a new career pathway, which was part of, like, what made the partnership so meaningful than just drones, flight, aviation, that's too obvious for me.
Tom Fox:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're breaking barriers. This is all happening at the same time.
Tom Fox:You talked a little bit about how you were selling your sponsorship. This is your future audience. You know, our entire business for our careers has been built around how big is your audience, how many eyeballs, let's monetize those eyeballs. You know, somebody will pay us a rights fee, then they'll monetize it through advertising. That's kind of out the window in a lot of ways because as you saw with Sarah that she wants messaging that matters, the ability to tell stories, and it's much easier to go to different places and find an audience.
Tom Fox:All this is happening kind of the same time. And it leads me kind of into what what's happening with women's sports because at a moment in time people thought the size of the audience was less important than my ability to tell social story or a social message story. So, you know, you and I talked a little bit about women's sports. On some level, I'm super excited about volleyball that it's growing. But on some level, when you look at the growth of really the NWSL and the franchise values and the sponsorship, is it you know, what's underpinning that from from your perspective?
Tom Fox:Is that, you know, is that number real? Because it seems to me there's there's a couple of outliers there, but there's a lot of money moving into that space. And, you know, is is it sustainable?
Rachel Jacobson:It's a hard business. I think
Tom Fox:because you were at the in the NBA when the WNBA
Rachel Jacobson:was started. Yes. Yes. Where's where's Howie? Yes.
Rachel Jacobson:Howie was there with sold it
Speaker 4:too. Yeah.
Rachel Jacobson:Yes. Yeah.
Tom Fox:It's a much easier sell. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Jacobson:Yeah. And it was not you know, when you when you walk in and you have the NBA and then, like, even a different sales team selling the WNBA and the Olympic team, I think, and and Howie and I were there to Yes. NBA.
Tom Fox:You got c and w on the end.
Rachel Jacobson:Not at the time. It was separate. And it really when it was in the early years of the WNBA when, you know, it's like another good David Stern story. When you used to be in your office, now I'm totally dating myself, and the person's name would show up on your phone. Can anyone remember that in this room?
Rachel Jacobson:I'm really dating myself. David, help me out. Help me out. Seth, no?
Tom Fox:You you touched on a little bit earlier. You're talking about leagues that have negativity. I mean, what I what I saw happening with NWSL, the woman who worked for me at the Earthquakes went to run sponsorship, for Angel City, and she was selling deals that were as big as MLS deals with a fraction of the audience. She did it because she took the conversation from audience size to more purpose. If you do this, it says something different about your brand.
Rachel Jacobson:And that's why it is so important to, like, make sure you have a road map. Make sure, like, you're building for the future because any one athlete can get hurt. Any one rah rah team owner can exit. And it it is that we talked about high tide raises all boats. You need that.
Rachel Jacobson:You need everyone in the boat rowing for you because any one, you know, one pitch that isn't perfect can take you down, like, significant way.
Tom Fox:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Jacobson:But I'm bullish. Like, I think I'll like put a bow on it. Like, I am very bullish. I'm Well, they'll figure it out. Yes.
Tom Fox:They'll look at this as a data point. They'll look at this as a moment in time, and they'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. You've got some news on what you're doing next, right?
Tom Fox:And it's a great gig, well, we talked about it. It's kind of Yeah. A It puts a bow around the the lessons that you've learned throughout your career and what this next move sort of allows you to do to tie all those things together. So share share with us what what you're what you're moving into and and the ex what what it really represents culmination of your career.
Rachel Jacobson:Yeah. Well, I think there's a couple of things. When I exited this past spring having, you know, I think built a sport for five years, found the right capital to fully get acquired, and then work through a smooth transition into the next company, I was able to, after thirty years, take a little bit of, like, a beat, as my children would say, mom's taking a beat, and think about what makes me happiest. Like, what are environments where I can thrive? For many of you that don't know me, it's like, you know, in what or thirty minutes today, I think you could size me up.
Rachel Jacobson:Like, infectious, positive energy, well networked career in sports, entertainment, the way I look at the world, I'm very values driven. Not all environments want that. You know? Like, I want to have the head cheerleader spot for causes and missions and products and services that I care about. So it's really about finding the property, which I don't have one single thing to Tom's point.
Rachel Jacobson:I think for me, it's been I know where I can make the biggest impact, and I love the scale of businesses. And I think there was so much when I left in the spring and I shared with my network that I'd be like, moving on to the next, you know, big thing for me. What was taking me away from even spending more time after having built the drones and, you know, transitioning into is I looked around at college. I looked at youth. My daughter plays flag football.
Rachel Jacobson:Three years ago, we weren't talking about flag football. Now it's something you can see. Tail sport. Right? We've got Eli Manning coming out, you know, to coach the girls.
Rachel Jacobson:So, and the NFL looking at another vertical that could be a billion dollar business, like, overnight. I think when I started to look at, like, all of these incredible opportunities, I wanted to put myself back out there and start having smart, thoughtful conversations, which I am continuing to do and figuring out where I can be that, like, big accelerant. In the meantime, I think to Tom's point, is I've been sitting on a public board for the last several years, which was really just complimentary to what I was doing. It was something that I wanted to do. And oftentimes, you work at companies, and they don't allow you to be on public boards, nonprofit boards, whatever it is.
Rachel Jacobson:It's taking more time away from what you're doing that they're paying you for in terms of your day job. So I did get the opportunity. Nick at the Turn Racing League was very supportive. And I found myself on a public board of a pharmaceutical company as the only nonsurgeon, nonmedical person, and I brought the marketing for a product that was going to market, getting FDA approval. And what now has pivoted as a pharmaceutical company into a crypto treasury company Totally natural.
Rachel Jacobson:Right, everyone? It just rolls off it just rolls off our tongue. So I think when Darvon and and Tom and others called me last spring of, like, what's next? What's next? I was like, I think I tell this story, you know, as Tom and I talked about it was, I don't just look at the value creation and ad in sports.
Rachel Jacobson:It's almost like sports is an incredible, like, asset base that you can use it to tell things to people that you want to talk to. It's a universal language. Like, you run into someone, you talk about, like, who's your favorite team, what do you root for, what do you play. It's just an equalizer that I've always loved. And I think, like, now more than ever, whether it's crypto treasuries or Better Health when we talk about mental health, it's like there's not a company, a product, or service that I am not confident if I sat down with their CEO right now that I couldn't find the right sports property for them to make their business better.
Tom Fox:Wow. So get her as an advisor. She did more than I'm giving you. So, but one of the things you mentioned earlier, you mentioned that woman in sports, woman in tech, you know, your lesson to young girls who are looking for career paths, you talked about the importance of leaving something big and challenging yourself in a variety of ways and the importance of pivoting. Just punctuate the conversation with that because I didn't say it as well as you did earlier.
Rachel Jacobson:Yeah. I mean, I think you can get really comfortable in jobs. Really comfortable. I've seen it in a lot of places, and I give a lot of career advice. And as my sister tells me when I often ask her for advice, you have to be prepared for the answer.
Rachel Jacobson:It's usually about a wardrobe, like, or, you know, some gift we're giving to our parents. Not as deep as the career stuff because I stay out of politics and careers with, like, immediate family members. I do much better if I'm, like, one removed. Don't tell my husband that, though. But, yeah, I think you could get really comfortable.
Rachel Jacobson:Like like you, Brock. Like, I want them to look up. I want Brody to really respect me as an executive, not a you know, the punctuation of the woman or the female version, and that's what I love what we talked about in volleyball. It's it's not the men's game better than the women's game the women's game better than the men's game. Like, look at a sport and, like, have those blinders on.
Rachel Jacobson:Look at the sport for the athleticism and the passion and all of those pieces that people wanna see. But I think it you know, just getting back to my own career advice because I do I take a lot of pride in people that have worked for me over the years celebrating their success, putting them in environments. It is it is a wonderful environment. Like, I'll forever be thankful, changed that I had that twenty one years. Like, I love the NBA.
Rachel Jacobson:I I will always support them. It's like royalty in in my family. But I do think getting comfortable being uncomfortable and just like outsized ambition, and a little bit of like, you gotta bet on yourself. Because if you're not betting on yourself, no one else is. So at least help people out there.
Tom Fox:Good good advice. Open it up real quick. Any questions?
Speaker 4:I go up, Willa. Everyone's trying to figure out I mean, you've got the sports heritage. You understand sports marketing from the early days, you've seen the transition, and you've gone and created this youth culture platform to talk to young people in the way that they like to be spoken to. What advice can you give you know sports marketers like us who are trying to speak to brands to help them find a way to speak to a younger audience because it's tough, whether, you know, agnostically across different sports. What is that lightning in the bottle?
Speaker 4:What's that secret formula to talk to young people today to a sports event?
Rachel Jacobson:I think a lot about this. And this whole content creation, content creators are the new athletes. I buy into some of this because when you're talking to again, everything is like my, my petri dish is my children, you know, in terms of, like, they're my test bed on everything. And I saw it through the lens of when they were growing up, Like, what's cool, what's not cool. And they're only 15 right now, and they're still making decisions on things.
Rachel Jacobson:Like I said, like, flag football was nothing two years ago, and now Lily's gonna get a varsity letter. Like, that's a big deal, and it's changed overnight. Volleyball, same thing. And now all of a sudden, the girls at their junior year are playing, and then they're thinking about for college one year later when, you know, Michael Phelps had said he didn't start swimming until he was six, and that felt like a big deal. Like, oh, wow.
Rachel Jacobson:You're the most decorated Olympian six, or Dakembe Mutombo didn't touch up basketball till he was I don't know. I'm gonna get this wrong. 16 or
Tom Fox:17. It was 16.
Rachel Jacobson:Something like that. Like, I think this whole notion, like, you have to talk to people at their level and not meaning, like, talk beneath them, meet them where they are.
Speaker 4:Multiple conversations.
Rachel Jacobson:Exactly. So my kids wake up in the morning, and we follow different sports. I don't wanna, like, pick on some that we don't follow because I have friends that own teams, so I don't wanna I don't wanna pick on that. But they need a two minute drill every morning on sports they care about. If it's over two minutes, we have no time.
Rachel Jacobson:Like, that is that's the landscape of their lives right now is they need it quick. They need it fresh, and they wanna hear something that ESPN or SportsCenter isn't gonna tell them. They're as interested in the dynamics off the court as they are on the court. So I think sometimes whether you have a big or small budget, if you're a company that uses sports to get your message across, the challenge becomes you get sold some of, like, the logos. You get sold the jersey patch, the logo branding, all of that, and you're like, that's table stakes.
Rachel Jacobson:Like, sometimes there's a higher threshold to enter that conversation. But if I was sitting on top of a brand right now, which by the way, I think could be a good job for me, different different combo. If I was at a company right now that had never done anything in sports and you gave me a budget, I'd like a healthy budget. But if you gave me a budget, I would wanna go zero to 90 overnight. That's just like how I fly.
Rachel Jacobson:It's like I like, you gotta blitzscale this. You don't have a second chance to make that impression. You are going to have, like, a roadblock where all of a sudden no one was talking about you, and now everybody is talking about that brand. They're in this. They're in that.
Rachel Jacobson:They're in what have you. But it's not the logos. It would have to be, like, very strategic messaging about whatever the product or the service was that people would want to support that. And I know some of this sounds esoteric, but, like, you get the right spokespeople. You do something off the beaten path.
Rachel Jacobson:It was like what mister Beast did. No one was talking about mister Beast. I was like, what, mister Beast? And my kids were like, 21,000,000 views in an hour. And I'm like, what?
Rachel Jacobson:I'm like, that was more than any other sports property got on, like, I don't know, I was gonna say a Monday night football game, but maybe I'm wrong with that stack. It was crazy. And then I was like, who's this MrBeast? So I'm like, woah. He's a content creator, and he cares about social good.
Rachel Jacobson:So, like, there is this intersection of doing it right where I think a lot of brands play it safe. They know, okay. Threshold is this to be an NBA or dub, you know, NBA, NFL, a big five sponsor. You might have to still do that, but how you show up is very different. Like, would you do Monday Night Football, or would you do the Manning cast?
Rachel Jacobson:Or would you do the, like, streamer that the 10 year olds are talking about?
Tom Fox:Or get the streamer that the 10 year old's talking about to do a manning cast just for you. Right? Because I I love the manning cast, but that's also fairly narrow audience. Somebody had suggested you could do get Snoop to do one. You could get
Rachel Jacobson:Right.
Tom Fox:Mister Beast to do one. Right? You could you could really start to segment the broadcast as a way to reach the audience with the same type of product, and you might get people to to watch more
Rachel Jacobson:of it.
Speaker 4:Right?
Rachel Jacobson:Well, and I think, like, the last point of that is, so my family is very involved with thoroughbred racehorses. My dad actually works for one of the largest owners in the world. So we and my grandparents so, like, we're a horse racing family. I've grown up with that sport. There's a lot of people that know nothing about horse racing except for the Kentucky Derby or the Belmont if you live, like, local here, Preakness as well.
Rachel Jacobson:So my son who spends a lot of time on horse racing, He has now taken after my father. He understands the lineage of horses. He understands it, and he does race calls. Turn the volume down. He'll know the horses.
Rachel Jacobson:He knows the jockeys. He knows the owners. He will do race calls, and he's pretty good. Like, he could probably call at a track right now in the country as a 15 year old. So he started doing race calls, and he started really like, it would bother him that he would go to school and talk about how much he loved horse racing, and it was, like, dead on arrival.
Tom Fox:Crickets.
Rachel Jacobson:Crickets. He's like, mom, nobody nobody knows about horse racing. And, like, again, like I said, you don't wanna be in that stadium, and no one else is there. And you're like, why am I here? I love this so much.
Rachel Jacobson:So Brody was like, the the only outlet to horse racing is, like, the broadcast that are once or twice a year. So Brody started teaching them about horse racing. Come over on a Saturday. Let's watch what we teach you. But when we go to Monmouth Park with Brody Jacobson, that's cool.
Rachel Jacobson:The jockeys are so accessible. So I say all that because even a 15 year old or a 10 year old or whatever it is, I think that is the voice that marketers really need because it meets the consumer where they need to be met.
Tom Fox:Great example. Great example. We are out of time. Thank you. It's great to see you, and thank you for the energy.
Rachel Jacobson:And happy birthday to Tom.
Speaker 1:We hope you enjoyed the chat and look forward to having you next time on The Playbook Podcast.