Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright offer support, life management strategies, and time and technology tips, dedicated to anyone looking to take control while living with ADHD.
Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control, the ADHD podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Hi, Nikki Kinzer. What a fantastic member pre-show chat we just had.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, movies, TV, timers.
Pete Wright:
Timers. I just want to say if you are a member of our Discord community, and are at the deluxe level better, and you watch the member pre-show, you would've seen me talk about this little device called the Focus Timer, which is a gift from one of our members, Steve, in our community.
And I am so grateful for it, and I just want to say it on the proper show because people won't get it. Go to getfocustimer.com and check it out because they're not sponsoring us. It's just a cool gadget. And I have been having a lot of fun timing my time blocks over the last 18 hours.
Nikki Kinzer:
Just because it's pretty.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, just because it's great.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, it's pretty.
Pete Wright:
I want to time everything.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's new, it's shiny.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. It reinforces the need to just have a visual sense of time passing so that I don't have to worry about the actual numbers of time.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, that's nice.
Pete Wright:
I could just say, yeah, block this. Anyway, really, really great. We are talking about... oh my goodness, we're talking about-
Nikki Kinzer:
Busyness.
Pete Wright:
... the world as it changed around us. It didn't use to be so hard. ADHD, it didn't use to be so hard. That's the premise, and I wonder if we end up believing that at the end of this episode.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. I'm thinking that most people are going to say no. It's always been just hard.
Pete Wright:
It's always been.
Nikki Kinzer:
But we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what we come up with.
Pete Wright:
I actually think there's a third path that I'm going to take and I can't wait to run it by you. So, that's what we're talking about today. Before we get started, head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. Of course, listen to the show on the website, but generally, subscribe to the show in your podcast app of choice.
And for those of you who are in Google Podcasts, obviously, we're not leaving Google Podcasts. Google Podcast is leaving us. Google is getting rid of Google Podcasts and all future podcasts are going to be available in YouTube Music. And our podcast is already there. So, if you were a Google Podcast listener, you can go to YouTube Music on your mobile device and search for the ADHD podcast, and you could subscribe to the show there.
So, that's the big news that Google has once again thrown all of its cards up into the air, and turned over the table, and walked away. So, head over to YouTube Music for podcast.
Nikki Kinzer:
I honestly didn't even know there was a Google Podcast, so there you go.
Pete Wright:
What I have found is most people, who on the news of hearing that Google is leaving the podcast busyness, have just gone to Pocket Casts, which is another great podcast app, and I use it, and I think others should give it a shot. But YouTube Music, if you want to stay inside that Google Music ecosystem, that's the place to get it. Anyway, so that's the podcast news.
Subscribe to us at a podcast app, but once you do that, you should head it over to our Discord community, takecontroladhd.com/discord where you can chat along with other ADHD-like-minded adults. And if you are looking for a little bit more, this is the pitch. It's time for the pitch. I'm just going to call it out. The next 60 seconds is the pitch, the Take Control ADHD Patreon Community, it is the lifeblood of this show.
We do a lot of things to Take Control ADHD, but Patreon is the thing that supports the podcast. So, if you love the podcast, if you have been listening for a long time, and it has touched you in one way or another or helped you think about ADHD, and productivity, and time in a new way, head over to patreon.com/theadhdpodcast and check out the tears that we have on offer there.
Basically, for just a few bucks a month, for five bucks a month, I think at the deluxe level, you get access to the live streams of the show. You can jump into Discord, and chat along with folks as they listen to the show, and you get to watch, you get to see us on video, and your mileage may vary on that kind of thing. I don't know if it's good to see us do this show.
Nikki Kinzer:
I don't know either because right now, I'm playing with my lights,
Pete Wright:
Yeah, which is a lot of shenanigans.
Nikki Kinzer:
And I'm trying to figure out what's going on and-
Pete Wright:
It's antics, I believe the word is there are antics on video, but we appreciate you so much for supporting the ADHD podcast on Patreon, and we try to continue to give back in that channel. So, head over to there, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast. You're the best. Thank you. And now, let's talk about why.
Nikki Kinzer:
We're so busy all the time.
Pete Wright:
We're so busy all the time. The thesis here was that, do you remember that time back when we were younger and things were somehow better? I can picture myself riding my bike down the street in my neighborhood, and the wind was blowing through the trees, and I was flying, and maybe I had playing cards in the spokes of my BMX bike.
I had a Mongoose, and maybe I could just feel the environment, and everything was okay. Everything was generally, and maybe I struggled in school, but I don't know what struggle was because I didn't have really anything to relate it to then. I was just a dumb kid living my life. And now, those things feel like they weren't even... that I can't relate to those experiences anymore. Those experiences feel like the experiences of another person that I wasn't.
Nikki Kinzer:
I was a younger person, right?
Pete Wright:
For sure.
Nikki Kinzer:
I think that if we're looking at when we're young, of course, things are different because now we're adults and we have all this responsibility. Whereas, when we're young, somebody else is responsible for us, and they need to make sure that we're eating, and going to school, and doing the things that we're supposed to be doing. So, I don't think it's a very fair comparison, to be honest.
Pete Wright:
It is a hard comparison, I think. That is a real challenge, and I think I want to talk about why it feels harder to have ADHD as an adult, largely as a perspective setting. But I feel like there is an earlier perspective setting that we have to address, which is the nature of busyness writ large in the world.
Because those things, the way we interpret what it means to be overworked has also expressed itself in a new way for everyone. So, my sense is ADHD is competing in an unfair playing field where everyone is busy to the point of massive distraction, and then we also are living with ADHD on top of it. Does that make sense?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. And I think if we go back into early years, it's a different kind of problem. So, it's not a fair comparison in the sense, it's just a different problem. So, some of these things are taken care of by your caregiver, but then there're other things that are happening on the playground and in school.
And as you get a little older, maybe in the fourth or fifth grade, you start noticing that you're not exactly like everybody else. You're not processing things as much. You don't want to sit still for three hours, whatever. You're going to start noticing these things. So, the problems are different.
And then, as young people, you can't communicate what's wrong. You don't know what's wrong. You don't know how to say it. So, a lot of things can happen with that. And then, all of a sudden, you become this adult, and you have all these responsibilities, and the pressure around society, and being busy, and productivity is such a big thing, and time management, and all of these things that are hard for A DHD.
And then, we're getting these expectations from the world that's not ADHD that you should still be this way. This is the productive life that you should have or whatever.
Pete Wright:
Right. And that we actually changed the way we value productivity and our own expertise. So, I want to talk just for a second about performative busyness. And some of this stems from our conversations on the Oliver Berkman stuff. I've been just taking notes around this for a while. And the other is just some of the pieces that he mentioned and some of the people that he mentioned in his works.
And I encourage you as you listen to this, to think about both your relationship to yourself, what it means to feel busy vis-a-vis productivity, and how others relate to you when they talk about their busyness because I think that's an indicator of culture. So, busyness is this reflexive response. When we're asked, how are you? What is the first thing you say?
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm so busy.
Pete Wright:
So busy.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's such a busy time in life right now. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It's always a busy time.
Nikki Kinzer:
And it always is, yeah.
Pete Wright:
And yet, one of the things that you and I talked about in the pre-show just a second ago was what a glorious celebration of nothing we did this weekend because it wasn't busy. And I think that's the interesting note. That became the thing that was weird about that conversation is that we're not completely gobsmacked with work.
Busyness and overwhelm are a badge of honor for a lot of people. And hustle culture is really celebrated. We feel the need to validate our busyness by providing detailed accounts of how packed our schedules are and overflowing inboxes. The number of times I have talked to somebody and they've turned around their phone, or their iPad, or something and said, "Look at my schedule," and it's just pack to pack with appointments and things.
And I totally get it. We pack our schedules now. We display busyness as a status symbol and a form of validation from others. It suggests an underlying insecurity and desire for self-worth in a competitive economy. Generally, the busier we appear, the busier people are around us, maybe the more successful they are.
Nikki Kinzer:
I was going to say, the more money you think you're making because you're so busy.
Pete Wright:
The more money, yeah, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Technology enables us to be always on, which feeds the busyness obsession. I have this tool that can, I don't know, file the taxes of the entire subcontinent of Madagascar in seconds. I should be doing it. I should be doing all this stuff. Slowing down is avoided out of fear of falling behind or being seen as unproductive.
Nikki Kinzer:
I see this a lot, especially on the weekends, not wanting to have any time or any space to just do nothing because there's always something to do. And so, there's this guilt of, "Oh, I shouldn't be watching these movies. I should be doing this and this and this." Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. And it disconnects us from meaning and happiness. It disconnects us from the abilities. We forget how to process slowness to our own detriment. It becomes addictive. Busyness becomes this maladaptive social behavior, and it escalates as people take on more and more obligations. Our own innate need to people please fuels the culture of busyness around us.
It distracts from difficult emotions and provides a false sense of control. It distracts you because if you're always busy doing something or thinking about something that comes next, you're never stopping to think about who you are in the space around you and your life experience. It's like we forget to process that. We're guilty.
We get super guilty about not doing anything that becomes culturally ingrained. I don't feel right when I'm not moving. I don't know how to not set my alarm in the morning or worse, I don't need to set my alarm anymore because I wake up at 4:30 automatically. I don't know how to get a good night's sleep anymore.
I have to demonstrate constant progress, even if the tasks I'm working on are unimportant. I'm always moving a ball down a field somewhere somehow. We prioritize reactive tasks over substantive work that take real focus. So, here we are, we're not addressing a work box. We're addressing the inbox, and we're reacting to the inbox.
Our idleness and reflection are seen as unproductive instead of necessary, and busyness signals that you are essential, productive and not lazy. And this is the locksmith story from Dan Ariely, I think is a really good one, and it really hits home for me. He tells his story of a locksmith that he hired to open his door when he was locked out of his house.
And so, the locksmith, he says when he was just starting out, he was inexperienced. It would take him a long time, like 25 minutes to pick a lock. And he'd often end up breaking the lock along the way and having to charge for it to be replaced. Customers were super happy to pay this $120 service fee, plus the $25 for a new lock, and then would tip him.
Today, that same locksmith is more skilled. It takes him one to two minutes to open a lock, but customers no longer tip him, and complain about the $120 service fee, even though he provides a much faster service and rarely damages locks anymore. So, the way Ariely talks about it is that this illustrates how we judge value based on effort rather than outcome.
So, we tend to reward incompetence and unnecessary work because we can see the striving and the struggle. It's evident there's sweat on the brow, and that's worth something to us monetarily. Even though customers get quicker superior service, they focus on the brief time it takes versus the former lengthy process. And that is a cognitive bias. It shapes our perceptions of busyness. We impress others by emphasizing effort over results.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow, that's really interesting.
Pete Wright:
It is interesting. I run into this all the time. That's just everybody. So, now we get to talk about why it feels so much harder to have ADHD as an adult in an environment of performative busyness. What do you think?
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I definitely think that it comes from a lot of the expectations that people put upon themselves. And what's so interesting is we talk about they, and I always wonder who they are. Who are they? Who are the people that you feel you need to live up to or that you need to please?
Because I would say that in my work, that's it, is the expectations are so high and there's this feeling that everything needs to be done, everything is urgent, it's all behind. And then, there's this overwhelm of what to do because everything needs to be done. And so, when the question is asked, what are the priorities? What's most important?
It's really hard to choose because everything feels important. And so, I think we have to really dissect where are these expectations coming from? And where are the shoulds coming from? And what does it matter if... nothing is getting done right now, right? Let's just put it out on the table. Nothing's getting done right now anyway.
So, what can you do different, or what is there to be done differently? And maybe it's all about mindset, has nothing to do with the tasks, but can you approach it in a different way to make it a little bit easier to not compare yourself to other people? What do you want?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
What do you want to get done or what's important to you?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And I think what's interesting about that, and if we go back to how we opened this conversation about what it felt like, riding down the bike in the neighborhood with the wind in our hair, we forget that we were gifted with the structures of parents and systems in schools to help us get the things done that we needed to do.
And we may have been doing them poorly. We may have struggled to do them. Our sense memory may be that I wasn't very good at homework, but none of that is rationalized without the experience of having some sort of structure that was applied upon us, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
And we consider as we step out into the world, our relationship with the world around us and this culture of busyness, we have to face that without any implied structure. We have to build that ourselves. We have to use the tools. We have to use the worksheets. We have to use the systems in order to give ourselves the same schedule that we inherited by just existing when we were younger.
And that is so hard, and I don't think we talk about that out loud enough that our memory of what it was like having ADHD as a kid, we forget the lens through which we viewed ADHD as a kid. And there are all kinds of ways we saw ADHD, but we had a structure. It could have also meant bullying, it could have meant social anxiety, it could have meant imposter syndrome, performance, anxiety, all of those different kinds of things that we felt and lived with. But we also had a structure. There were people trying to help us frame our days. The lucky one.
Nikki Kinzer:
So, you have ADHD, and you don't know you have ADHD, and now you're thrown in this world because after high school, there is no more structure. No one is saying, you have to go to school. No one is saying you have to go to work. You're on your own. You've got to figure this out. And if you don't have a support system, you're going to feel lost.
And that's probably why too, when we look at statistics and we look at what happens with untreated ADHD, there's more people in jail, there's more divorces, there's more job hopping. All of these things increase when the ADHD is not being treated. And so, it is. I think that we don't set up our young adults very well with ADHD, and I don't even know if we set them up very well without it, but it's a little easier for them to figure it out.
Pete Wright:
Well, for sure. Yeah. It's easier for them to figure it out. It's also easier, I don't remember my relationship with memory when I was a kid, but I know that my relationship with memory was such that I would forget enough of the bad experiences over time that I could appear functionally more resilient, I think, even than I am as an adult. I think the more I age, the more I bounce up against the experience of-
Nikki Kinzer:
And that probably is because of the lack of experience. We don't know anything different. You had mentioned earlier, you were saying something about, I don't know anything different. And I remember asking a question to Discord, and they were saying, "I don't know what that normal is because this is what I've always felt."
And so, it's just an interesting point to think that when you don't have that experience and you don't have all of those negative experiences, you can be more resilient because there's nothing holding you back saying, "Remember when this happened before?" So, it is interesting that the experience piece definitely makes you more RSD.
Pete Wright:
I think so.
Nikki Kinzer:
There're more triggers.
Pete Wright:
It makes us more RSD because we know what RSD is.
Nikki Kinzer:
Is, right, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Because we've experienced it.
Nikki Kinzer:
You've felt it. You've experienced it. You've lived it. And those expectations are still really high. And it's hard too, because I know we don't have the ability to just create the schedule. It's going to work for us. There's still structure that we have to live within. But how do you do that in a way where your brain thinks a little bit differently, and not put the high expectations on yourself and still be you with ADHD? How do you live in the world, and still have ADHD, and not have it be against you?
Pete Wright:
Yes. Yes. That's functionally it. And so, it gets us to this last point of what do you do practically every day so that you can exist in a world that is increasingly busy around us, and values time, and our input to it differently, maybe more aggressively than it did when we were younger? Let's just say. How do you create a space to reclaim some of that peace and still exist in the world competitively, let's say?
Nikki Kinzer:
So, going back to the 4,000 weeks, which has got to be probably one of my favorite books of all time, you have to make choices. We have to start getting comfortable with making choices, and deciding what is most important to us for us and not for anybody else. There's a lot about supporting your A DHD, but it's also making the choice of doing this just for you, and your family, and the values that you have.
I don't mean it to be a self-serving selfish thing in a bad way. But with that being said, if you can walk into the world and say, okay, this is how I process. This is how I like to work. Now, I can set up schedules, and I can set up systems, and I can practice these things, or I can do these things that I want to do in the world on my terms. This is what I need to do to support myself.
It doesn't matter that Pete over there in Portland does it something different. This is what I need. And then, it's conditioning the employers, and family members, and spouses of this is what I need to have a good relationship in our home. I don't do well with bills. I need you to take that on, and have that conversation of this is going to be better for both of us.
And at work, this is how I work best. If you can give me the freedom to start work when I want to start it, you'll get the eight hours in, in the day. But I need to have that flexibility of doing it the way that I need to do it. And maybe that means taking a break in the middle of the day to go work out because you need that exercise, you need that dopamine.
I think we need to spend more time focusing on what supports your ADHD, and then how does that support you in life, and taking a moment to slow down and to be okay with doing nothing. And that that's just as important, when you're intentionally planning, it is just as important to plan your exercise, and your personal time, and your reading time, and the time that you want to connect with others. Do those things first and let the other things fall into place.
Pete Wright:
It gets to this conversation that we had last week or the week before on the values calendar and time shielding that we are, I think that maybe one of the best expressions of navigating ADHD in the busyness culture is understanding ourselves as humans as hybrids, when it comes to time.
That when you stop and think about the things that are important to you, to your values calendar, to saying on the calendar, I want to protect time to work out and to do these things, you're not protecting a specific 30-minute workout. You're protecting and shielding this hour every day to do something that is not specifically related to your passion.
Another one of the things that we've talked about before, maybe not extensively enough as performative busyness is the trend of taking your hobbies and turning them into side hustles. I once loved taking pictures, and then before I knew it, I was a practicing photographer for money. And just how, in some cases, that might be the right career progression for you.
And in other cases, that might just be a side effect of performative busyness because everyone is doing something like this, taking a side hustle and anything that you have a natural affinity for or ability to become something that everyone assumes you should be making money at, and that is so dangerous. That is so dangerous, I think, for our brains, because it gives you no space to be thoughtful about creating for the good of yourself. You are always then creating for the good of others. And once you go down that road-
Nikki Kinzer:
Especially in art, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it's really hard.
Nikki Kinzer:
Especially with art. Yeah. And what I love about your photography example is that we have a member of Patreon who takes pictures, photos of flies, and bees, and bugs, and they get really-
Pete Wright:
Macrophotography, yes. It's amazing.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh my God, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And so, I think it's the joy of when you take this beautiful picture and you see all the details, you would be doing that without making money. It's just a joyful thing to do, and you're appreciating nature, and we need to do more of that and not feel guilty about it.
That's the thing is life is not just a to-do list and checking things off. And that's the busyness part of it should be a happy busyness. Yeah, I've got work I'm doing, but I'm also busy with enjoying life. I'm going on vacations. I'm spending time with my family. I get to hang out with my cat, whatever.
Pete Wright:
A great expression of that, there's another conversation happening elsewhere in Discord about how long it takes us to wind down into vacation mode. And I think that is a really great indication of how well we're doing this. For those of us where it takes days to turn off, and then we feel like, for me, the anxiety comes back up very early in the vacation about returning to work.
That I feel like is a sign that perhaps we're dealing with the discomfort of our own inner thoughts. It's hard to slow down, like working out, you're sore when you start working out for the first time. It is a practice of discomfort to actually get good at physical fitness just like it is emotional fitness. And I think we have to realize that slowing down from the busyness culture is an act of discomfort.
It's an act of saying out loud to the world, I'm not doing this thing that you want me to do right now because it's not good for me. And it's also an act of telling yourself, I'm going to be comfortable with a little bit of more emptiness in my life. I'm going to be comfortable walking with my dog and listening to the sound of the world around me rather than constantly having an audiobook or a podcast playing in my head because there's no other opportunity for reflection.
And I think that is something we're seeing more and more of. Experts who are coming out and saying reflection, inner reflection is one of the things that is most important for us when we're dealing with silencing the noise of busyness culture. And for ADHD, I think that is absolutely manifest tenfold.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. And vacations are interesting, and this is just me on my own personal opinion. I think the best vacations are two weeks. I really do. And if you can do that, if you can negotiate, if you get two weeks of vacation, ask your employer if you can take them back to back. It's one time a year, you can prepare for it, so you're covered and all of that, but there's something magical about two weeks.
I think that because when it's only a week, there's always this anxiety that this week is going by really fast because they always do. They go by really fast, and then it's Wednesday, and there's just this anxiety around what you're getting back to. There's just this constant, even if you're in the best place in the world, it still lives there. At least it does with me because of my anxious personality anyway.
But two weeks is ideal because you get that, but at the beginning, you really are still in this mindset of, "Oh, but I still have a week and a half. I'm good. I still have plenty of time. I still have so many things I can do, and choices, and do I want to read today or do I want to do a puzzle today?" And not have that stress, and so I really personally like two weeks.
And then, I'm lucky enough, and I know Pete, you feel this way too, towards the end of the two weeks, I'm ready to come back. And I am fortunate that I love what I do, that I am ready to... I'm refreshed and I am ready to go for it.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And I think I'm glad you called that out because so much of this, when you and I are talking about it comes from a place of noted privilege. We work ourselves. We have a lot of flexibility. We don't have a boss looking down on us and tracking what we do anymore. We've moved through our career path to have something just where we are in our lives.
But I just want to acknowledge that you don't just have to take a two-week vacation to find your space. You can do it every day. You can do it by protecting more time when you get out of bed, not to doom scroll social media, but to do a crossword. I know that sounds so maybe so ridiculous, but do a crossword or do a connections, man, I'm addicted to those connections, quizzes.
I do a set of games every morning without looking at the news that has just been delightful. It's just a way to change the brain before the shower that allows me to reclaim a little bit of that. When I do want to be doing something, I want to wake up and be thinking. So, I like that. One of the things that I don't do often because of the nature of my work, I'm constantly in a place where I need to be in front of a microphone.
But the last couple of months, we've been working on this other project, and I've been doing more and more work in the evenings at our local coffee shop. Getting outside of my space changes the way I interact with the work that I'm doing. And that's another way to just reclaim some peace from stale normalcy or busyness culture.
Nikki Kinzer:
And what a great thing for your ADHD too, because now you're being stimulated in a way that you got used to at being at home. So, now there's something different. And I think that that's a good point is how do you change it up just a little bit to make it more engaging?
Pete Wright:
I'm obviously a massive podcast hound, and one of the things that I have to do often is unsubscribe from the news podcasts that I subscribe to because I'll unsubscribe, and then something will happen. I'll be like, "Oh, I'm a little out of touch. I guess I'll subscribe to just this one."
And then, before long, I have 10 different news podcasts that I subscribe to all covering different editorial angles. And I realize, "Oh, right, I need to do a reset again." And honestly, I'm okay with the ebb and flow of engaging in news culture, but generally, I'm better and at greater peace when I turn it off for a while.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. I agree.
Pete Wright:
I think that's the thing. So, much of what we hear is just stop doing this one thing altogether and you'll be better. And that's not really it. The answer is awareness, awareness of how you are engaging with the world. And I think maybe that's another gift of age. I'm sure if you go back 10 years on this podcast, I'd have a lot stronger opinions about binary thinking, but I think I'm more chill now as a result.
Nikki Kinzer:
I think so too.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. So, what else?
Nikki Kinzer:
We're old. What can we say?
Pete Wright:
You got anything else?
Nikki Kinzer:
We're old.
Pete Wright:
Old and happy.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, I'm good. Yeah. Thank you-
Pete Wright:
Interesting-
Nikki Kinzer:
... everyone, for listening. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I think this is a really important subject, and I hope it gives some sort of reflection on how we relate to the busyness culture and our performative busyness and know that ADHD, you can take two different tacts with ADHD. One of them is seeing the world around you hyper performative and believing that you have to compete at that level in order to find happiness, and peace and belonging.
And the other is recognizing that they're playing a game that you were never designed to play, and that you need to play your own. And that's okay. It's really okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
I love it. Great way to end. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
And thank you, everybody, for downloading and listening to the show. As always, we appreciate your time and your attention. Don't forget, if you have something to contribute to this conversation, we're heading over to the show talk channel on our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better.
Again, thank you so much to our current and hopefully, future patrons, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control, the ADHD Podcast.